Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello and
Speaker 1: welcome to the Beckdel Cast. My name is Caitlin, name
Speaker 1: was Jamie, and you're listening to the podcast about the
Speaker 1: portrayal of women in movies. It's true. Hey, guess what. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when women in movies usually are not portrayed well or
Speaker 1: at all. Oftentimes, just to start the cast out, ever
Speaker 1: seen the movie the thing? Pretty sure there's no women
Speaker 1: in it? No? Is that? Is that a vagina monster movie? Um? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you could probably argue yes. I went on Okay, so
Speaker 1: I went on a date last night and I pregamed
Speaker 1: by watching Teeth. I didn't know you went on a date.
Speaker 1: Listen it was white, Fine, you tell me it was.
Speaker 1: I know that we're codependent. I did. It was an
Speaker 1: impromptu and I was in the middle of watching teeth
Speaker 1: and like, let me just finish watching teeth and then sure,
Speaker 1: lets me. Yeah that's a great way to Yeah, I
Speaker 1: can't recommend watching teeth before going on a first date.
Speaker 1: Enough a blast. If you're not familiar with the movie teeth,
Speaker 1: we'll get it. Yeah, well, we'll get there. But it's
Speaker 1: about a woman whose vagina is full of teeth. She
Speaker 1: bites dude sticks off with her vigilante justice feminist icon teeth. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So this is the Betel cast we use for our
Speaker 1: yardstick of how women are treated in film. We used
Speaker 1: the Bechdel tests, inspired by Alison Bechtel, uh, and our
Speaker 1: interpretation of it is the movie must have two female
Speaker 1: characters with names speak to each other at some point
Speaker 1: in the movie about something other than a man. Only
Speaker 1: has to be I think that this comes up a lot.
Speaker 1: People were like, oh, it has to be a whole scene,
Speaker 1: then nothing would pass. It literally has to be two
Speaker 1: lines of dialogue that happens, the lowest bar possible, all right,
Speaker 1: And yet so many movies managed to still not pass
Speaker 1: the Bechtel test, some of the most famous movies of
Speaker 1: all time. I'm excited about the movie we're talking about today. Yes,
Speaker 1: So before we talk about it, though, let's introduce our guest.
Speaker 1: She is a comedian. She is terrific. Emily Heller, Hello,
Speaker 1: are you doing Mrs delt Am? Why wouldn't I amazing
Speaker 1: that really it always gets a laugh. So we're talking
Speaker 1: about Mrs deult Fire. We are. Did you first see
Speaker 1: the movie? What's your history with this movie? Okay, I
Speaker 1: definitely saw it as a kid, possibly when it came out,
Speaker 1: I don't remember, but then I definitely watched it again
Speaker 1: as an adult, you know, maybe like eight years ago,
Speaker 1: then again yesterday. You know, I'm from the Bay Area too,
Speaker 1: So okay, the bus that Mrs Doubtfire gets on is
Speaker 1: a bus I used to ride when I lived there, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, I started comedy in San Francisco, so
Speaker 1: I was like Robin Williams was like around, Wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's wild. But yeah, so I feel like pretty connected
Speaker 1: to this movie in a lot of boys. Sure, this
Speaker 1: movie was a huge movie of my childhood. There were
Speaker 1: like probably like ten different movies that I just watched
Speaker 1: all the time. This was one of them. I saw
Speaker 1: The Brave Little Toaster a lot, Jumanji. Dude. I got
Speaker 1: in so much trouble, Like the most trouble I ever
Speaker 1: got in as a kid was when I was eleven
Speaker 1: years old. It was the first time ever my parents
Speaker 1: were letting me go to the movies without an adult.
Speaker 1: They organized this whole thing where this big group of girls,
Speaker 1: We're going to go see Tom and Hook. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: JTT movie. And then while we were in line winning
Speaker 1: to buy tickets, one of the girls revealed that she
Speaker 1: had not seen Jumanji, and we were all like, you
Speaker 1: haven't seen Jumanji. And we got to the front of
Speaker 1: the line. We like, does Jumanji get out at the
Speaker 1: same time as Tom and Huck? And they were like yeah,
Speaker 1: and they were like, we're seeing Jumanji instead, Like, I
Speaker 1: changed the plans. We went to go see Jumanji instead.
Speaker 1: Jumanji did not get out at the same time as
Speaker 1: Tom and Huck got out twenty minutes later, and my mom,
Speaker 1: who had showed up to the movie theater to pick
Speaker 1: us up, thought we had all been kidnapped. She waited
Speaker 1: outside the exit of Tom and Huck watched every single
Speaker 1: person leave, none of us were in there, and she
Speaker 1: was so furious with me. Did you ever end up
Speaker 1: seeing Tom and Huck? Though? No, I didn't know. Here's
Speaker 1: a thing, but I did see again, that's fine JT very.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I wasn't that big of a JTT fan.
Speaker 1: I mean I kind of was, but I didn't really
Speaker 1: know it was JT T. Is he? Because there's J T. T.
Speaker 1: And then every child slash teen actor of that era
Speaker 1: who looks exactly like him, but wasn't him. Um, no
Speaker 1: one looks exactly like that. No one had the same sparkle.
Speaker 1: It was truly. It was his coloring of like the
Speaker 1: dark eyebrows and the light eyes and sandy hair. It
Speaker 1: was like a very unusual the contrast. Yeah, the contrast,
Speaker 1: and that's like smirky. I can't even picture Big Treasure
Speaker 1: Island is or is that a J T T. Poser?
Speaker 1: Great question? You know what, let me check it out.
Speaker 1: I'm most familiar with the Christmas Carol top the podcast,
Speaker 1: the Gang. It's not him, it's not him. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: just a lot of lookalikes out there. I do like
Speaker 1: on a Muppet movie Wikipedia page, they build all of
Speaker 1: the Muppets before any human. Top build is Kermit the
Speaker 1: frogs as it should be, I guess, But Kermit the
Speaker 1: Frog got build before Tim Curry. Anyways, this is top Fire.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I saw this movie a ton as a kid,
Speaker 1: but I hadn't seen it probably for fifteen or twenty years.
Speaker 1: Watching it again. Interesting, it's interesting things that happened. What
Speaker 1: about you, Jamie, what's your history? I didn't see this
Speaker 1: movie for a while. My older cousins would watch it
Speaker 1: all the time, but I wasn't allowed to. And then
Speaker 1: eventually I think I probably saw it around the time
Speaker 1: it was like seven or eight, and then probably again
Speaker 1: in high school and then again for this but I hadn't.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it in like a good at least
Speaker 1: between ten and fifteen years, like it's been. It's been
Speaker 1: a bit. And yeah, there are some there have been
Speaker 1: some big cultural shifts that would have make this movie
Speaker 1: somewhat impossible. Now, I will say the writer of this
Speaker 1: movie Randy myam singer. She and I follow each other
Speaker 1: on Twitter. She's an outspoken feminist. She seems really cool. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the movie was written by two women, and then it's
Speaker 1: adapted from a novel, also written by a woman. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of interesting gray area. It's been adapted from
Speaker 1: a novel, a novel called Madam Doubtfire alias Madam doubt
Speaker 1: Fire and I Love alias Madame tout Fire. Makes it
Speaker 1: sound like a spy movie, which it sort of is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's definitely spying on his family, his wife and her
Speaker 1: New Relationship, also directed by Chris Columbus of the first
Speaker 1: two Harry Potter movies and Home Alone Alone and the
Speaker 1: Really Stinky on screen adaptation of Rent. Oh Yeah, Oh,
Speaker 1: Chris Cars, you're all over the place, buddy, what's happening Anyways,
Speaker 1: he's a millionaire. We're fine. I'll do the recap of
Speaker 1: Mrs Stuffire. Mrs stuff Fire is about a man named
Speaker 1: Daniel Hallard played by Robin Williams, and he's a party anymore.
Speaker 1: He has kids and he loves him. He wants to
Speaker 1: have fun with them, and he's dad. He's a bad dad.
Speaker 1: And he was married to Miranda played by Sally Field.
Speaker 1: And he throws a party for his twelve year old
Speaker 1: son and she comes in on it. The house is
Speaker 1: a mess. She's like, this is too much. Well, and
Speaker 1: she to he wasn't allowed to have a birthday party
Speaker 1: because his grades were two less right, so he So
Speaker 1: this is a classic the cool parent overriding the mean parents.
Speaker 1: Like he's he's like acting like a dad who's already
Speaker 1: been divorced, right, Like, why are you acting out of
Speaker 1: spite like this towards a woman you're currently alright? Well,
Speaker 1: so yeah, she comes home. She's fed up with all
Speaker 1: of his antics, and she was like, let's get a
Speaker 1: divorce and he's like no. And in the divorce proceedings
Speaker 1: he's granted no custody except for like he can only
Speaker 1: see them on Saturdays or something like that, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I need to see my kids more. And he finds
Speaker 1: out that Miranda is going to take out an ad
Speaker 1: in the newspaper to hire a housekeeper. So he goes
Speaker 1: to his brother, who is a makeup artist for the
Speaker 1: movies for Hollywood, except not Stage Francisco. First, he sabotages
Speaker 1: the ad so that she can't get any real inquiries, right,
Speaker 1: some classic print journalism manipulation. Yeah, and then yeah, So
Speaker 1: he calls and puts on this whole facade of like
Speaker 1: I'm the best, I'm Mrs doubtfund. So his his brother,
Speaker 1: who is like does makeup for movies. He calls him
Speaker 1: up and says, make me a woman, and his brother says,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy for you, which is like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a very this is a joke. I didn't notice
Speaker 1: as a kid. There are tons of those, and and
Speaker 1: begs a lot of questions of like why did he
Speaker 1: like that? Doesn't the character, and that statement didn't necessarily
Speaker 1: like line up, but I was like, oh, interesting, what's
Speaker 1: the story there? Yeah, so yeah, he makes all these
Speaker 1: like this prosthetic mask and this whole body suit and
Speaker 1: everything like that to turn Daniel into Mrs Doubtfire and
Speaker 1: then he poses as the family's housekeeper. Four months. Yeah
Speaker 1: it seems like it's months. Yeah, it's a while. Sally Field,
Speaker 1: while an intelligent and empowered woman, does not recognize it's
Speaker 1: for ex husband. That is definitely the biggest buye in
Speaker 1: this movie is that she does not recognize she's capable
Speaker 1: in literally every other way. And also, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you either of you have been in like a
Speaker 1: long term relationship, but there's one thing I know very well,
Speaker 1: and it's my boyfriend's face, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I see that thing all the time. I know
Speaker 1: exactly what his teeth looked like. I know exactly, I know,
Speaker 1: you know, and they did do like fake teeth and
Speaker 1: like lots of prosthetics and stuff like that. But but
Speaker 1: he's recognizable as Robin Williams. Yeah, you've had three children
Speaker 1: with this, Like this person has been inside you would
Speaker 1: thank you as someone who has never been in a
Speaker 1: long term relationship, but knows how faces work. I do,
Speaker 1: I think I would recognize anyway. Yeah, so no one.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a big problem for the movie.
Speaker 1: TUTSI as well. But yeah, well, now, the thing is,
Speaker 1: this movie is set in San Francisco, which I think
Speaker 1: at the time probably had one of the most robust
Speaker 1: transgender communities in the entire country. You don't live in
Speaker 1: San Francisco and not know about transgender people, especially if
Speaker 1: you're like an adult. What I'm saying is like, it's
Speaker 1: a lot easier for transgender people to pass sometimes in
Speaker 1: like the middle of America or like places where there
Speaker 1: are no transgender people because no one's looking for it.
Speaker 1: And so the fact that that also wasn't a factor
Speaker 1: in this, Like there's a few tongue in cheek jokes,
Speaker 1: but you're like, why is this set in the one
Speaker 1: city where this would be the hardest to pull off?
Speaker 1: That's true and I mean necessary. Yeah, I mean maybe
Speaker 1: she thought that Mrs Doubtfire was just a transgender woman
Speaker 1: and just didn't say anything about it, which would be
Speaker 1: interesting also but would be pretty progressive to not call out.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but there's no mention in that, and instead
Speaker 1: there is like whenever Daniel is making calls to basically
Speaker 1: make it so that Mrs doubt Fire when she calls
Speaker 1: is going to be like the best possible scenarios, right,
Speaker 1: because he does this whole like montage of calling calling,
Speaker 1: of doing like bad candidates, and one of the bad
Speaker 1: candidates is him saying I don't work with the males
Speaker 1: because I used to be one, and then oh yeah,
Speaker 1: and then she's like oh, She's like yikes and hangs
Speaker 1: up the phone, and it's like, but also like, I
Speaker 1: get that it was teeing up that terrible transphobic joke,
Speaker 1: but why would a transgender woman not want to work
Speaker 1: with boys like that? Logically, like, setting aside the transphobia
Speaker 1: of that joke, what is the logical explanation for makes
Speaker 1: no sense? That just doesn't track on anyone. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: basically Daniel works as Mrs del Fire for the family's
Speaker 1: housekeeper for months, yes, taking care of the kids, being
Speaker 1: a better father than he ever had been before basically,
Speaker 1: which is kind of in some ways makes them more
Speaker 1: culpable because it's like, Okay, you understand how rules can
Speaker 1: benefit children, and you understood it before you just were
Speaker 1: unwilling to enforce it. Cool, but as a woman, not
Speaker 1: as much of a problem. Yeah, there's some weird, some
Speaker 1: weirdness going on. Yeah, and then his two older children
Speaker 1: find out about his true identity and he tells them
Speaker 1: to keep it a secret. And then towards the end,
Speaker 1: at the big dinner scene with all the switchers between
Speaker 1: his like big work opportunity and then the birthday dinner
Speaker 1: for his ex wife. For his ex wife, Sally Field's
Speaker 1: character finds out, Oh, you're actually my husband faking being
Speaker 1: our our housekeeper at this whole touch and Sally Fields,
Speaker 1: I mean just a sec that's yeah, the fucking distrust
Speaker 1: I would have of every person around me for the
Speaker 1: following five years of my life, right, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, especially upon finding out that it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: also two of my children new and my my ex
Speaker 1: husband like swore his children to secretly. There's just he
Speaker 1: was also asked me a lot lot of questions about
Speaker 1: my sex life with my new boyfriend, which just makes
Speaker 1: the ending of this movie. It's a family movie, but
Speaker 1: like makes the end completely bananas, Like yeah, right, because
Speaker 1: then I mean they have a fight. He's granted no
Speaker 1: custody he gets supervised visits, but he starts playing Mrs
Speaker 1: Delfire on TV, so I guess he's trustworthy. And then
Speaker 1: Miranda approaches him at work and she's like, you know what,
Speaker 1: things were better? You should see the kids and da
Speaker 1: da da. And then because she realizes that she can't
Speaker 1: find another housekeeper as good as Mrs doubts there and
Speaker 1: they all miss her and they're like, She's like, what
Speaker 1: are we talking about. She's not a real person. Why
Speaker 1: are we talking but yeah, yeah, and then like she
Speaker 1: opens the door to their new housekeeper, and then it's
Speaker 1: the reveal that it's Daniel, and she's like, you can
Speaker 1: hang out with your dad more. Yeah, the end every
Speaker 1: day after school. Yeah, okay. I do kind of think
Speaker 1: it's interesting that they bothered to include the custody battle
Speaker 1: of like, oh, for sure he would not get custody
Speaker 1: after all of this, I was like, oh that, I mean,
Speaker 1: that seems kind of realistic, or more realistic than than
Speaker 1: a lot of parts of the movie. But then at
Speaker 1: the end, it just it bugged me that like Sally
Speaker 1: Field's character is the one to be like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I was not wrong, but like I forgive you for
Speaker 1: this massive weirda. Yeah, yeah, I mean she does seem
Speaker 1: like she's being a little bit too forgiving, but she's
Speaker 1: also like, I think this is the best outcome for
Speaker 1: my kids, you know what I mean, how do you
Speaker 1: protect your kids after something like that? So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: definitely messed up. But I can see if I've learn
Speaker 1: like a kid and then I found out my dad
Speaker 1: was doing this thing that was like kind of funny
Speaker 1: to me and kind of bizarre, I would be like,
Speaker 1: oh Dad, what, but like cool, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be like afraid of Yeah, I mean like giving
Speaker 1: it the most possible credit. It's like she probably assessed
Speaker 1: that her kids were not traumatized by this, is not
Speaker 1: visibly traumatized by it, and that it was In performing
Speaker 1: the Mrs Doubtfire ruse, he demonstrated his willingness to change
Speaker 1: his parenting style to write adjust for the things that
Speaker 1: he needed to. But also but also it is Doubtfire
Speaker 1: like it is bizarre because it's like, you know, he
Speaker 1: is more like Daniel is more respectful of her parenting
Speaker 1: style by the end of the movie and definitely like
Speaker 1: sees the value of it. But but again, it's like
Speaker 1: we sort of see that he knows that at the beginning,
Speaker 1: he's just not doing it. Yeah, right, he This movie
Speaker 1: is just like it's yeah, but that's it. It is
Speaker 1: a way longer than I remember. Over two hours long.
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's insanely long. But but it's I mean,
Speaker 1: I enjoy this movie. It's just there's just so much
Speaker 1: like this movie could not be made right now. I
Speaker 1: just get thinking of the storyline in Arrested Development when
Speaker 1: Tobias the Mrs feather Bottom combination Mary Poppins and Mrs
Speaker 1: dowdfire thing. Yeah, but the joke there is that everyone
Speaker 1: knows that it's clearly Tobias playing this character. They're just
Speaker 1: tolerating it, yeah, and letting him do housework, let go
Speaker 1: to free labor. So one of the first things I
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up about the movie as it relates
Speaker 1: to the portrayal of women is a segment that I
Speaker 1: call breaking Shrews. It's like breaking news discussion the shrews
Speaker 1: in the movie. I appreciate that quietly, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Pretty Much every female character that we see on screen,
Speaker 1: basically everyone is presented as a shrewish character. In some
Speaker 1: aside from Marral Wilson's character rest too young to Shrew
Speaker 1: quite yet just about everyone else, including the older daughter
Speaker 1: lydia Um. She's the one who's all like, no, we
Speaker 1: shouldn't have a party. Mom said we couldn't. Later on,
Speaker 1: she is judging her dad's apartment that he moves into
Speaker 1: and she's like, this place is detestable. She's always just
Speaker 1: kind of being like rules, rules, rules, I'm no fun, right,
Speaker 1: impossible to please. Yeah. Then we see the neighbor lady
Speaker 1: who basically knarcs on them for having a giant, disruptive
Speaker 1: party with barn animals. Yeah, but she's all like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell on you, and she calls Miranda at
Speaker 1: work about it, and who then comes in and Shrew's
Speaker 1: out shrews herself right into a divorce. And when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, When I was a kid, I definitely
Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, she's a mean mom. I was
Speaker 1: so on Daniel side when I was Yes, And now
Speaker 1: now I see this movie and I'm like, I'm on
Speaker 1: Miranda's so on her side. I feel like, what that's
Speaker 1: thing about this movie that is like both brilliant and sad,
Speaker 1: which is that like kids totally see the mom character
Speaker 1: as the bad guy, but as a woman. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this was made for me in some ways, because it's like,
Speaker 1: I feel like, in some ways, a very compassionate portrayal
Speaker 1: of Sally Field. She gets ample opportunity to explain all
Speaker 1: of the ways that Daniel's behavior ruined their marriage and
Speaker 1: it's totally totally legit. And then she gets to have
Speaker 1: this fucking fantasy hot boyfriend here who's like, I've been
Speaker 1: following her career and like her career success is a
Speaker 1: big part of like why he's attracted to her, and
Speaker 1: he's like totally like giving her everything. In some ways,
Speaker 1: it's like total wish fulfillment for her. In some ways
Speaker 1: like oh, I'm just one breakup away from stew from
Speaker 1: sucking pre James Bond Below seven. He is truly a
Speaker 1: vision in this movie. Yeah he's he's like but I mean,
Speaker 1: like the camera loves him. There's that whole like diving
Speaker 1: board scene. I was just like, I was not expecting
Speaker 1: to get Horney during this movie, but I forgot about
Speaker 1: ste Nipples. You do see stuis Nips new sub podcast
Speaker 1: stuis Nips There. I was expecting going into this movie
Speaker 1: because I remember the same same as you, like, not
Speaker 1: liking the mom when I was little and being like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, she's so mean, She's so terrible, and
Speaker 1: also having a very clear like map in my head
Speaker 1: of like this is like my parents, where like my
Speaker 1: mom is a disciplinarian and my dad is same fun,
Speaker 1: same dynamic with my parents. Yeah, I think it's like
Speaker 1: a lot of kids parents and and so I remember
Speaker 1: thinking that mom was so mean. But the movie, Yeah,
Speaker 1: to its credit, I was expecting a far more like
Speaker 1: villainized portrayal of Sally Fields character. But she she does
Speaker 1: at every point, like I tried to put myself in
Speaker 1: my mom's head seeing this movie. I'm like, I wonder
Speaker 1: if she felt heard, she felt piste off. Robin Williams
Speaker 1: started doing some weird you know, I don't know, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think it depends on the audience
Speaker 1: who's consuming this. When we said when we're kids, were like,
Speaker 1: oh boo, mean mom. But we has grown women who
Speaker 1: often either have to ourselves or see other women carrying
Speaker 1: all the burdens in the emotional labor of maintaining a household,
Speaker 1: and we're like, yeah, we hear you, we get it.
Speaker 1: It's just frustrating, but she is. You know, nothing's really
Speaker 1: done to make her seem like a more reasonable, compelling
Speaker 1: character to the young audience who's seeing this. I think
Speaker 1: so we as children who I think this movie is
Speaker 1: the target demographic for, or like families, people with kids,
Speaker 1: the movie is like, yeah, she's the shrewe, she's the
Speaker 1: bad guy. She doesn't get her say if the cat
Speaker 1: moment at all? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, We're like there there
Speaker 1: could have been a moment in this movie where, because
Speaker 1: she has opportunities to explain where she's coming from, we
Speaker 1: know that she's not a bad person, she's not a
Speaker 1: bad parent, but but at no point her kids express
Speaker 1: an interest in spending time with her. At no point
Speaker 1: do we understand, Like we as adults can conceptually understand
Speaker 1: like she's doing all this stuff for the good of
Speaker 1: her children, But at no point, as a kid watching
Speaker 1: this did I think what a cool mom? You know,
Speaker 1: I never thought, like, you never really see her doing
Speaker 1: anything for the kids that's like fun and sometimes you
Speaker 1: like you need that, and especially when you're young. I
Speaker 1: remember my first movie I saw that took place in
Speaker 1: San Francisco when I was a kid, was the Princess
Speaker 1: Diaries and the mom that movie rules. I mean, she
Speaker 1: she's like a full time artist, but there's like scenes
Speaker 1: where she and like Mia are like having an awesome
Speaker 1: time together, and it's like, oh, even though you know,
Speaker 1: like she has to have her mom moments like Miranda
Speaker 1: does in this movie, Like we see that there's a
Speaker 1: relationship there, but that's not really here, And I feel
Speaker 1: like that might be partially connected to like a working
Speaker 1: woman kind of stigma of like, oh, she's a little
Speaker 1: bit she's not a bad mom, she's a little bit
Speaker 1: cold kind of thing. Yeah, she's got a career. She
Speaker 1: doesn't have as much time or energy to be a kind,
Speaker 1: caring mother right something. She's not around enough to realize
Speaker 1: that her ex husband and drag is her home was
Speaker 1: a little cold. She's a little distant. The custody scene,
Speaker 1: the first custody scene is really interesting for like understanding
Speaker 1: people's ideas of parenting at the time, because the judge
Speaker 1: in the moment is basically saying, like when he's making
Speaker 1: the ruling of like Daniel getting one day of custody,
Speaker 1: as he was like, you know, usually these favorite the mother,
Speaker 1: but recently we've realized that kids need dads, Like it's
Speaker 1: like a very weird sort of like wait, what like
Speaker 1: with that? When I was watching that this time, I
Speaker 1: was like, was that supposed to be like a joke?
Speaker 1: Was I supposed to be like a little progressive like
Speaker 1: wink till I think so? Couldn't tell what that was
Speaker 1: intended how that was intended to land at the time,
Speaker 1: And it seemed like he was saying that like because
Speaker 1: Daniel didn't have a job, that was why he would
Speaker 1: not be a good guardian. And it's like, but she
Speaker 1: has a job, and also wouldn't he have more time
Speaker 1: to be a guardian? Like that doesn't seem like it's confused.
Speaker 1: It's confusing unless he meant that because he doesn't need together, yeah,
Speaker 1: but to still be able to care for them. But yeah,
Speaker 1: the whole that's like an interesting comment on like masculinity
Speaker 1: that the movie is making because him not having a
Speaker 1: job is you know, like a deal is made of it,
Speaker 1: where in some ways, like I think it's like portrayed
Speaker 1: a lot of like you know, a man not having
Speaker 1: not being the breadwinner of the family is portrayed not
Speaker 1: not in extreme ways by this movie, but that's like
Speaker 1: somehow stripped him of his masculinity in some ways. Well,
Speaker 1: and we should point out too that when we first
Speaker 1: meet him, it's when he quits his job because they're
Speaker 1: trying to make him do a pro cigarette voice over
Speaker 1: for a children's cartoon, which is a very easy way
Speaker 1: to get people on your side, to be like, I'm
Speaker 1: quitting because I don't think kids should smoke cigarettes. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're on board. We love this guy. Yeah. Um, And
Speaker 1: so you're like, oh, well, it's not his fault he
Speaker 1: doesn't have a job, like he quit and righteous anger,
Speaker 1: right right, And I love how the movie portrays that
Speaker 1: as something that could just happen, like oh no, there
Speaker 1: every day. Yeah, sometimes you just have to walk off
Speaker 1: the job that you probably have signed a contract for,
Speaker 1: just leave by walking off that day. Anyway, So Sally
Speaker 1: Field's character is pretty shrewish throughout the movie. There's a
Speaker 1: few other shrews that I wanted to mention. The grandma
Speaker 1: who doesn't even get any lines and you only see
Speaker 1: here for like one very brief scene, but but he
Speaker 1: makes a crack about her being dead, being a corpse
Speaker 1: and like smelling like from alde Hyde. The court liaison
Speaker 1: lady Mrs Selner something that, Yeah, she's an old shrewish
Speaker 1: lady with his divorce parole officer, which is like that,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that it does. The way that custody
Speaker 1: is traded in this movie is like a little uncanny valley,
Speaker 1: like is he being watched that carefully? For where are
Speaker 1: these government resources going? Also, you don't ever see this
Speaker 1: character on screen, but Daniel's brother Frank played by Harvey
Speaker 1: fin scene. Sorry, um, sorry, it's for sounding so intense.
Speaker 1: Actually he is on the phone with their mother and
Speaker 1: she's like ba ba bad, like being all and he's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to mom about my divorce. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just very overbearing mother. And they're like no, no thanks,
Speaker 1: and they're just very dismissive of her. So generally, any
Speaker 1: woman you see on screen is probably portrayed as a
Speaker 1: shrewd oh. And then the housekeeper who comes into interview
Speaker 1: at the very end when they're trying to find someone
Speaker 1: to replace Mrs Doubtfire, she's not like, I don't do bathtubs,
Speaker 1: I don't do carpets, I don't do cleaning, I don't
Speaker 1: I don't do reading, I don't do Yeah, we're all
Speaker 1: the uh yeah, not a single woman in this movie
Speaker 1: gets to have any fun, right except no, presumably off screen,
Speaker 1: when Sally Field is fucking Pierce Browsn. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: can we get what hit the cutting room floor in
Speaker 1: terms of they did like a full penetration. I would
Speaker 1: watch Pierce Browsing in full penetration now seventeen. Oh yeah god.
Speaker 1: And I mean Sally Field is a fun person. There's
Speaker 1: like a really amazing interview I saw her do on
Speaker 1: I think it was Johnny Carson about when she was
Speaker 1: fucking Burt Reynolds, and it's very saucy Sally. I love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of not fair that you see all
Speaker 1: these fun male characters and then no, well it really yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it really is just Robin Williams who's fun
Speaker 1: because there aren't any other fun guys in this Like
Speaker 1: Harvey Firestein is still a little bit of a knack,
Speaker 1: but he does have he is more fun, but it
Speaker 1: is like, well, I'll give him that. There's like a
Speaker 1: gay character in this movie. There are two gay characters
Speaker 1: in these movies, both played by real life gay comedians.
Speaker 1: Comfort it's him and it's Scott Capurroh, who was like
Speaker 1: a local San Francisco stand up like a local. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Scott Capurro plays as Daniel refers to him later in
Speaker 1: the movie Aunt Jack, who's like Harvey firesteins, like, you know,
Speaker 1: not clearly articulated, like partner in both business and love.
Speaker 1: But there's a weird It's confusing because at the beginning,
Speaker 1: Harvey Firestein says, like, make this guy look like a man,
Speaker 1: and he was like, like you would know. And it's like, wait,
Speaker 1: what does that mean because that seemed like a dig
Speaker 1: about how rarely he has sex. But then it's like,
Speaker 1: but their partner together there that that part of it
Speaker 1: was unclear, but well, their their relationship ships seems mostly
Speaker 1: just professional until that line where he says Uncle Frank
Speaker 1: and Aunt Jack. Well, I remember my mom when I
Speaker 1: was very young, explaining my too, like I have two
Speaker 1: gay uncles, and she explained their relationship to me based
Speaker 1: on Mrs Doubtfire. They're like, you know, you know Rob
Speaker 1: Williams brother and Mrs Doubtfire. It's like that, and I
Speaker 1: mean it must have registered. I was like, oh, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: and that was interesting. So that was, I guess, possibly
Speaker 1: the first gay couple I had seen on screen or
Speaker 1: at least the most high profile example, because that was
Speaker 1: what my mom went to to explain a real life
Speaker 1: gay couple. To me, that's really interesting. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: because it's not done super super well in the movie,
Speaker 1: but it was understand I'm really am curious about like
Speaker 1: the behind the scenes conversations about how to deal with
Speaker 1: gay issues in this movie, because it seems like there
Speaker 1: were multiple opportunities for them to like talk about it
Speaker 1: in a deeper way, and they like really swerved around them.
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, like where that came from, because like
Speaker 1: it seems like they probably wanted Harvey fire Stein's character
Speaker 1: to be a drag queen, Like it seems logical that
Speaker 1: he would be like I'm going to go to my
Speaker 1: brother who's drag queen and does drag makeup to like
Speaker 1: forts as opposed to like, yeah, a movie industry makeup artists.
Speaker 1: I guess that explains the latex and stuff. But but
Speaker 1: then later on, at the very end of the movie,
Speaker 1: the movie kind of ends with Mrs doubtfire giving, like
Speaker 1: on her own TV show, giving this speech in response
Speaker 1: to a letter from a viewer about the viewers parents
Speaker 1: getting divorced, and she gives this speech about how like
Speaker 1: the only thing that makes a family is love, and
Speaker 1: families can look like a lot of different things. You know,
Speaker 1: some families have one mom, have one mom, and some
Speaker 1: families have one dad. And you're like, but what as
Speaker 1: also yeah my line? And I just have to believe
Speaker 1: that there's a version where he says that and it's
Speaker 1: cut out. I would love to see a first draft
Speaker 1: of this script, yeah, because I mean I have to
Speaker 1: assume that they got notes on notes on notes in
Speaker 1: of what what people were comfortable saying, were they and
Speaker 1: what they weren't. But that's really interesting about Harvey Firestein's character.
Speaker 1: That would make way more sense. I'd be interested in
Speaker 1: how that was portrayed in the book, or if that
Speaker 1: character even appears in the book. I mean, the book
Speaker 1: seems like when is the book set? Was this like
Speaker 1: a modern update of the book because it no, I
Speaker 1: think it was released in sometime in Yeah, it came
Speaker 1: out in for teenage and young adult audiences. Yeah weird.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I guess that would that would make sense. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of the movie skirting around issues that could have
Speaker 1: been addressed, Um, there are a few brief moments where Daniel,
Speaker 1: who is in costume as Mrs Doubtfire, experiencing life the
Speaker 1: way a woman might experience. Yeah, but so much more
Speaker 1: commentary could have been made, and it just could have
Speaker 1: been better handled. Like he gets hit on by that
Speaker 1: by a creepy bus driver who's like not even like driving,
Speaker 1: like stops the bus and it's like, are you going
Speaker 1: to drive the bus? Are you gonna like trap this
Speaker 1: woman in your bus? Like yeah, at the behest of
Speaker 1: literally everything else going on, there's that, And then he
Speaker 1: gets off the bus and he's wearing heels, needs to
Speaker 1: something like, oh my back, if I find the misogynists
Speaker 1: bastard who invented heels, I'll kill him. So there's that
Speaker 1: kind yeah, no I'm saying, Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And then there's a moment where he almost gets mugged
Speaker 1: in broad daylight crossing a street. A guy like snatches
Speaker 1: her purse, and then he kind of like beats him
Speaker 1: off and gets him back. But those are the only
Speaker 1: moments where there's any sort of even calls attention to
Speaker 1: the fact that that he's that he's maybe giving up
Speaker 1: some of his privilege in playing this character, and like
Speaker 1: what that might teach him about what women go through.
Speaker 1: This was like one of my big things I was
Speaker 1: taking notes about in the latter half of the movie
Speaker 1: is and I think that this is something that does
Speaker 1: different in a way that works better for me. That's
Speaker 1: that I do have to reatch Titsy. I'm sure there's
Speaker 1: something there as well, but they're like there at no
Speaker 1: point does Daniel's character get really into the Mrs doubt
Speaker 1: Fire character. It's always like a facade. It's never like
Speaker 1: where in TITSI as I remember, it's a lot of
Speaker 1: the character art comes from really like living as this
Speaker 1: female character and learning how to communicate as a woman,
Speaker 1: and like all all this stuff, and that there's a
Speaker 1: real arc there where I like even like the climactic
Speaker 1: scene with the with the dinner when he's going back
Speaker 1: and forth between being a man and being a woman,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like there's just like there's so much
Speaker 1: opportunity there to make a real comment and have your
Speaker 1: character learn a real lesson about something like that, but
Speaker 1: but it just doesn't really happen. It doesn't. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like the closest it comes is in the scene
Speaker 1: where Mrs Doubt was having a heart to heart with
Speaker 1: Miranda about the divorce, and it's really Daniel probing her,
Speaker 1: trying to find out like, come on, is there any
Speaker 1: hope for Daniel And surely you must have tried to
Speaker 1: solve these problems and she's like, yeah, he didn't want
Speaker 1: to talk about anything serious and at a certain point
Speaker 1: he turned me into this shrew and I didn't like
Speaker 1: who I was with him, and it's like he finally
Speaker 1: gets it. Like that's the point when you see, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: this character is learning something in this scene that was
Speaker 1: upon rewatching one of my favorite scenes. I think because
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, you guys weren't a match. Like,
Speaker 1: you guys weren't a match, and also like you didn't
Speaker 1: have some of the necessary communication that you need to
Speaker 1: have about like how you're going to raise your kids together,
Speaker 1: and like what you value in a responsible partner and
Speaker 1: like and just like another impressive way that the movie
Speaker 1: let's Sally Fields character be heard and understood. Yeah, where
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, as a kid, you probably don't
Speaker 1: lose much from the movie by not seeing that scene,
Speaker 1: but watching it as an adult. Yeah, Like that's one
Speaker 1: of the semp where we're like, oh, that's that's pretty
Speaker 1: because I didn't remember that scene even happening. Of course,
Speaker 1: you probably tune it out as a scene with two
Speaker 1: adults or a scene where something goofy isn't happening or whatever.
Speaker 1: I remember scene where Mrs Tolfire is vacuuming all wild
Speaker 1: and wacky because that was in the trailer. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good trailer. I totally forgot about Stew's character altogether. Really, yes,
Speaker 1: and so that was a real pleasant horny surprise, as
Speaker 1: a real kamikazee horny moment. Yeah, I don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: this movie is is tricky. I think that it's important
Speaker 1: to mention exactly how huge of a movie this was.
Speaker 1: This movie was the biggest movie of ninety three, behind
Speaker 1: Jurassic Park million dollar budget four hundred fifty million dollars
Speaker 1: at the box office. This movie was fucking massive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which again I I does this movie do as well
Speaker 1: in ninety three if they make more nuanced points, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Probably not. If they didn't do anything,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have tested that well with audiences. I'd be
Speaker 1: really yeah, now that you're tucking it up, I'd be
Speaker 1: really interested in, like, what kind of rewrites this movie
Speaker 1: went through before it made because even in ninety three,
Speaker 1: I feel like this movie seems like sort of like
Speaker 1: a risky movie to be making. But it, I mean
Speaker 1: it worked. Yeah, I mean it is like post TUTSI.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, this is like a very well
Speaker 1: known movie trope. It does seem like they were trying
Speaker 1: hard to like not alienate anyone, but also to give
Speaker 1: some kind of wink at like the gay culture that
Speaker 1: made this movie possible. So I don't know, it's it's interesting. Well,
Speaker 1: I talked to a few trans friends of mine about
Speaker 1: this movie. Oh, I'm very interested to hear that. So
Speaker 1: um Riley Silverman, who was on our Batman, I messaged
Speaker 1: her and I said, I'm curious about your thoughts on
Speaker 1: movies where a sist character dresses up as or takes
Speaker 1: on the identity temporarily of a person of a different
Speaker 1: gender for the sake of the story. Other movies that
Speaker 1: come to mind are Tutsie, the Bird Cage, some like
Speaker 1: a hot Shakespeare Love. Is this inherently problematic? Is it
Speaker 1: okay as long as no transphobic comments or jokes are made?
Speaker 1: Something else? Thoughts? She responded and said, it's a gray area.
Speaker 1: For sure. Some trans people will tell you it's inherently awful.
Speaker 1: I think that's too broad of a brush. I do
Speaker 1: think with comedies there's a fine line because so many
Speaker 1: of the jokes are based in the humor of presenting
Speaker 1: a male seeming person as female. I sort of feel
Speaker 1: less bugged by these movies as a trans woman and
Speaker 1: more just as a woman, because so much of it
Speaker 1: is just really heightened genderal stereotypes. I feel like the
Speaker 1: fact that guy dressed as woman is meant to be
Speaker 1: demeaning feels so misogynist to me. And I said, totally,
Speaker 1: a lot of these movies and TV shows take the
Speaker 1: stance of a man being and in how humiliating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's like definitely some like kind of transphobic isn't it
Speaker 1: funny for a man to wear a dress type of humor.
Speaker 1: But then there's also like there was this whole school
Speaker 1: of like, wouldn't it be weird if a dad played
Speaker 1: a role in his kid's life in a real way
Speaker 1: where you're like, he doesn't know how to cook, he
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to clean, Like he's not a functional adult,
Speaker 1: and these are only roles he's willing to learn while
Speaker 1: not identifying as a man, Like somehow it's emasculating if
Speaker 1: he does that while he's a man, right, I mean
Speaker 1: later on in the movie His Gross Apartment does you
Speaker 1: could argue that, you know, what he learns being misses
Speaker 1: doubtfire informs his life as a kind of single father
Speaker 1: now because he cleans his place, he learns how to cook.
Speaker 1: But it's only after he has assumed the role of
Speaker 1: a woman that he bothered to do any of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to grow up basically yeah, um. And then I said
Speaker 1: the reverse of this, which the reverse of a male
Speaker 1: character dressing up as a female character. The reverse of that,
Speaker 1: like in Shakespeare in Love, where a woman dresses as
Speaker 1: a man, is empowering because then she gets to do
Speaker 1: a thing that she wants to do because people see
Speaker 1: her as a man and therefore she deserves respect. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like it's more of a radical act when women take
Speaker 1: on drag in movies in order to accomplish something, because
Speaker 1: it's like understood that her gender is the reason why
Speaker 1: she can't do it, And in movies like this, it's
Speaker 1: like oh no, it's yeah, or like one of the guys. Um,
Speaker 1: And it's like in movies like this, it's like, no,
Speaker 1: it's because a man feels entitled to a place like
Speaker 1: like in Titsie and in this it's like no, men
Speaker 1: dress and drag to gain access to a place they
Speaker 1: feel entitled to that they aren't entitled. Yah. She also
Speaker 1: brought up She's the Man soccer vehicle. Um. And then
Speaker 1: Riley said, I think the bigger problem with this stuff
Speaker 1: is less the movies themselves and more how people equate
Speaker 1: them with the trans experience after the fact. And I said, yes,
Speaker 1: that just shows the huge lack of understanding of what
Speaker 1: the tra experience is. And she said yep, and it's
Speaker 1: part of the demonization of trans people, along with transplantic
Speaker 1: horror films like Sleepaway Camp. And then we That was
Speaker 1: pretty much the end of lasts like, thanks for your input, goodnye.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so that was that conversation. Left it but
Speaker 1: still friends. UM. I read. I read a very interesting
Speaker 1: editorial that I found from around the time this movie
Speaker 1: came out from a drag performer named Charles Bush. He
Speaker 1: published a opinion piece in The Washington Post when this
Speaker 1: movie came out that's pretty generally praises the movie in
Speaker 1: terms of presenting Drag to a family audience in a
Speaker 1: way that he found to be generally respectful. But but
Speaker 1: his main criticism was that it didn't do enough like
Speaker 1: it appears respectful just because there's not much being said
Speaker 1: where the passage that I highlighted was although there are
Speaker 1: glimpses of a fully fleshed out characterization in Robin Williams
Speaker 1: portrayal of a sixth year old Scottish nanny, the humor
Speaker 1: of the film of a rises above the mechanics of
Speaker 1: how he's going to get in and out of Drag,
Speaker 1: which I think, yeah, like that's as far as it's examined,
Speaker 1: is like, isn't the costume funny? And that's the scene
Speaker 1: wild that he has to put this on and take
Speaker 1: which is which you know works, And I don't even
Speaker 1: think that that is like a necessarily like horrifying bad
Speaker 1: thing to see. It's a family comedy in nine. But
Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, there's a lot of that's of
Speaker 1: the movie is him getting in and out of the costume. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we could cut a half hour out of this,
Speaker 1: and we should because it's two hours. Yeah. I also
Speaker 1: spoke with another trans woman friend named Olivia asked for
Speaker 1: the same question, just basically your take on this thing
Speaker 1: that happens in movies and television, and she said an
Speaker 1: interesting thought offhand, I would say that as long as
Speaker 1: there's no real transphobia in punch lines or the narrative,
Speaker 1: then it should be fine. I know that before I
Speaker 1: came out or even really knew I was trans, I
Speaker 1: was drawn to narratives about gender swapping and that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. So I think even if there are some
Speaker 1: problematic elements that are inherent to the times they were
Speaker 1: made in overall their effects might be positive. So for
Speaker 1: her it was like, oh, interesting that I can see
Speaker 1: a story about this, even if it's not really identical
Speaker 1: to the trans experience or anything like that, it's still
Speaker 1: there's a possibility for something positive to be gleaned from,
Speaker 1: just like even watching gender be played with in any way, yeah,
Speaker 1: with without the punishments being so like, it's not being demonized,
Speaker 1: it's just being utilized in a kind of I will say,
Speaker 1: there's like a really awful moment when Daniel's two older
Speaker 1: kids find out about them stout by her ruse and
Speaker 1: his son is like, it's a he shey, we gotta
Speaker 1: call the police, and that part of it You're like, okay, also,
Speaker 1: is a child being raised in San Francisco really saying that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I certainly hope not. I don't know, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the San Francisco element is like the biggest sort of
Speaker 1: like question mark on that thing, Like I don't understand. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it was Robin Williams is from the Bear
Speaker 1: and he lived there, and I think whenever he had
Speaker 1: the opportunity he would shoot things there so he could
Speaker 1: be with his family and stuff. And Zelda, his daughter,
Speaker 1: is one of the extras in the party scene. She's
Speaker 1: a little girl jumping on a couch. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that scene was very uncomfortable. But apart from that and
Speaker 1: that moment that we mentioned before where Sally Field hangs
Speaker 1: up the phone and be like, oh, you used to
Speaker 1: be a man. Yikes, those are the only two sort
Speaker 1: of blatantly transphobic moments that I there's like definitely sort
Speaker 1: of a I don't know how if I mean even
Speaker 1: in a position to call it subtle or not, but
Speaker 1: there's definitely something problematic about like storylines that hinge on
Speaker 1: someone's true gender identity or sex being hidden, as like
Speaker 1: this giant betrayal. That's like this trope in stories about
Speaker 1: trans people were like hiding the fact that their trans
Speaker 1: is somehow a betrayal of the people around them more like,
Speaker 1: and that's a big part of this movie. But it
Speaker 1: is also it's like, well, notes that you pretended to
Speaker 1: be a different person than you're, right, but does play
Speaker 1: into like, well, of course everyone understands that because of
Speaker 1: course we all think that's bad. You know, you can
Speaker 1: it can play into that event and and just kind
Speaker 1: of on a basic level of you know, like a
Speaker 1: man donning woman's identity and then learns the lesson whatever,
Speaker 1: the lesson maybe whether it's this movie took you whatever,
Speaker 1: and then at the end of the day, Okay, he's
Speaker 1: back in a hetero normative space, like he returns to
Speaker 1: what everyone finds to be normal and acceptable. Well, he
Speaker 1: does continue to be missed doubtfire forever Yeah on TV,
Speaker 1: which just taking away a role that a woman could
Speaker 1: have had an entertainment. Yeah, I don't know. Also, I
Speaker 1: U this movie was supposed to be filmed in Chicago,
Speaker 1: but e R said no. When e Er had enough
Speaker 1: hour to just say you can't film in this whole city,
Speaker 1: e Er said no e ER was filmed here. They
Speaker 1: said e R had a lease with the city during
Speaker 1: that time period. They just leased the whole city. What
Speaker 1: is the budget for e Er? They could just least Chicago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that doesn't supposed Chicago, but then they relocated to San
Speaker 1: Francisco because we are only real quick about your point
Speaker 1: a few moments ago. Um, So, the song Dude Looks
Speaker 1: Like a Lady by Aerosmith was featured prominently in the
Speaker 1: featured prominently and it had like a resurgence because of
Speaker 1: this movie because it was I think it first released
Speaker 1: in the late eighties and then yeah, oh, I assumed
Speaker 1: that it came out around the same time. Interesting, No,
Speaker 1: I think it was eight seven, but don't quote me
Speaker 1: on that. That might be wrong. But so, yeah, this
Speaker 1: song was like hugely popular again because of this movie.
Speaker 1: And I read a Vox article about Caitlyn Jenner's response
Speaker 1: to this song and basically being like, I love this
Speaker 1: song and everyone's like, well, how about how it's very
Speaker 1: offensive to trans people because it's still saying dude. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'll just read a quick paragraph from the article. It says,
Speaker 1: in general, the lyrics blur the line between being a
Speaker 1: trans woman, a cross dressing man, or a man who
Speaker 1: simply has feminine traits. The song also plays on the
Speaker 1: idea that trans women intentionally deceive men or are in
Speaker 1: disguise that they are as for Lola as well by
Speaker 1: The Kinks I'm not super familiar with that song, same
Speaker 1: song set up um and that they are unattractive, repulsive,
Speaker 1: as evidenced in one of the video's first scenes where
Speaker 1: Steven Tyler recoils at this side of a construction worker
Speaker 1: whose gender identity is purposefully unclear, and at one point
Speaker 1: mixes pronouns going from oh, she like it in one
Speaker 1: line too, oh he was a lady in the next. Also,
Speaker 1: that plays on a roller coaster at Disney World. Why
Speaker 1: does Arrowsmith have their own roller coaster? I'm not that
Speaker 1: upset about it, am I mom practically creams every time
Speaker 1: we go to Disney roll then she gets to go
Speaker 1: on the Aerosmith roller coaster. Wait what episode did we
Speaker 1: first talk about that? In the How My Mom? Okay,
Speaker 1: so how my Mom tried to be tried and failed
Speaker 1: to be an Aerosmith groupie and then became became a
Speaker 1: groupie for this other band called the Beaver Brown band
Speaker 1: was just like supposed to be. My mom always she
Speaker 1: was like Beaver Brown was going to be as big
Speaker 1: as Aerosmith, and nothing worked out for them. They couldn't
Speaker 1: catch a break check out because the Beaver Brown band.
Speaker 1: But they are terrible. They aren't really bad. My mom
Speaker 1: just followed him around for a while on a while, child,
Speaker 1: Can we talk about the scene between Miranda and Stu
Speaker 1: when he first comes to her office, approaching her basically like,
Speaker 1: O help me design this AIRB and B. Nope, that's
Speaker 1: not what just to be and be a bend breakfast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and um, here's how this scene plays out, he says.
Speaker 1: And the pretense of the scene is that they're just
Speaker 1: having a business meeting and she's showing him told her
Speaker 1: like this guy asked for you specifically. So she starts
Speaker 1: describing what the look of this um airbnb, which is
Speaker 1: what I'm going to call now um in San Francisco.
Speaker 1: She could be developing, she's just describing it. And he says,
Speaker 1: you've never looked better or you look better than ever,
Speaker 1: and she ignores him and keeps talking business stuff, and
Speaker 1: he says, I've been following your career. Again. She barrels
Speaker 1: through and just keeps talking about the designs. He says,
Speaker 1: I'd love to get reacquainted again. She ignores him, keeps
Speaker 1: just talking business. Uh. And then he says can we
Speaker 1: talk over dinner? And that's what gets her to be like, yes,
Speaker 1: this is so nice, which I think sends a dangerous
Speaker 1: message because to push past the no yeah she's ignoring
Speaker 1: her does not mean no. And also, yeah, like saying
Speaker 1: nothing doesn't like is a yes, right, because like this
Speaker 1: could be considered sexual harassment in the workplace for sure.
Speaker 1: She's like, he's like, you look good, let's go to
Speaker 1: this is this is a test where I suggest doing
Speaker 1: one of my favorite movie tests, which is replaced the
Speaker 1: conventionally attractive mail with Steve Bushemy in this scene. How
Speaker 1: does it hold up? And this scene would read us
Speaker 1: very creepy. Yeah, so love it for her character to
Speaker 1: not respond in the way you think she might because
Speaker 1: she's technically being harassed. For her to be like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: this is so nice. Let's start dating, because I mean
Speaker 1: they have they have a history. And he was like
Speaker 1: they like data in college. Yeah, And then also like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard. What I'm saying is it's hard
Speaker 1: because and I'm hard and they're harty. For ste I
Speaker 1: will say that is like, there are two very refreshing
Speaker 1: things about the male characters in this movie, which is
Speaker 1: that like Robin Williams's character does not see his children
Speaker 1: as a burden. He's like all he wants to do
Speaker 1: is spend time with them, and that's like not the
Speaker 1: most common thing. But then also, yeah, like Pierce Browsman
Speaker 1: is like cool single mom with three kids. He's in,
Speaker 1: He's in. There's a scene at the pool when like
Speaker 1: when Mrs doubtfire overhears him having a conversation with the
Speaker 1: bartender that I kind of thought was gonna like the
Speaker 1: bartender being like, you don't like kids, why are you
Speaker 1: dating this woman? And you kind of think he's going
Speaker 1: to reveal like I actually deal money from her, or
Speaker 1: just like I'm gonna love her and leave her. And
Speaker 1: he's like, she's changed my mind because she's that amazing
Speaker 1: of a woman and I love these kids, and like
Speaker 1: and you're like, this is kind of I thought the
Speaker 1: same exact thing. I thought you were gonna. There's gonna
Speaker 1: be like a reveal that he because I didn't remember
Speaker 1: exactly what happened in that story beat and I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, he's going to be revealed to be
Speaker 1: this like devious, sneaky, evil dude, but like, no, he's
Speaker 1: just a pretty nice guys. Well, a movie that this
Speaker 1: reminded me of that came out, I just like it
Speaker 1: came out a year later. The Santa Claus comes out
Speaker 1: a year after Mrs tim Allen Yes with with Tim
Speaker 1: Allen who Santa dies and then Tim Allen is Santa
Speaker 1: because he witnessed Santa's death or something maybe weirdly responsible
Speaker 1: for it. Whoever finds Santa's body is the new Santa Santa.
Speaker 1: So that's the movie, but it is there's a lot
Speaker 1: of elements to the Santa clause that is very similar
Speaker 1: to Mrs staff Fire, and that it's a recently divorced couple.
Speaker 1: The dad is taking on this new identity, and there's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a body horror element to it,
Speaker 1: like what, yeah, they're both basically wearing fat suits they
Speaker 1: I mean, they're both for sure why And there is
Speaker 1: a Stu character in the Santa clause, but it's it's
Speaker 1: done way less tastefully. I think where Judge Reinold plays
Speaker 1: this because I remember having crush on him when I
Speaker 1: was little and my mom being like why would you
Speaker 1: like meal? Also name is where Neil is just as
Speaker 1: lovely new partner for for this mother, but the narrative
Speaker 1: is constantly like basically calling him whatever you would call
Speaker 1: a kuk in, like this guy is not masculine. This
Speaker 1: guy's a dweeen, he's their relationship is super de sexualized,
Speaker 1: whereas this is like, no, it's super sexualized, like you
Speaker 1: can't just yeah. There are some definite inversions of the
Speaker 1: tropes here, because like usually these movies have something to
Speaker 1: do with like the dad working too hard and not
Speaker 1: understanding what it is to be a father enough. People
Speaker 1: like Cramer remembersus Cramer liar, Liar. All of those movies
Speaker 1: are about like a dad who has to learn how
Speaker 1: to like be a dad, and this is about the opposite.
Speaker 1: It's like he has the warmth, he has the fun,
Speaker 1: he has the interest in his children. What he needs
Speaker 1: to learn how to do is like be responsible, and
Speaker 1: that's not usually how that goes. That is, I didn't
Speaker 1: think of it that way. In some ways, it's like
Speaker 1: a way of elevating these like traditionally female characteristics of
Speaker 1: like nurturing and caring and rules and boundaries and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, the emotional labor that women do in these
Speaker 1: stuff and and uh Sally Fields character can do. I
Speaker 1: mean she can't like literally do everything, but she knows
Speaker 1: how to do everything. It's like she could delegate to
Speaker 1: she was the breadwinner and she knew how to care
Speaker 1: for the kids. Like so, I mean she she's given
Speaker 1: all the skills and is not the villain of the
Speaker 1: movie ostensibly, but I do think that there's there is
Speaker 1: a subtext for kids that she's the mean one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if there's any mean one in this movie, yeh. Can
Speaker 1: we go back to the pool seem really quick? Because
Speaker 1: I just want to mention that there's a line where
Speaker 1: they're all like trying to get Mrs doult Fire to
Speaker 1: like put on a bathing suit to get in the pool,
Speaker 1: and she's just like, no, it would be like reenacting
Speaker 1: The Titanic, and I just wanted to mention the Titanic
Speaker 1: shout out. So okay. So so it was a tough
Speaker 1: I will say, just to start rapping, is that I
Speaker 1: was expecting to have a lot more issues with this
Speaker 1: movie than ultimately it because I hadn't seen it in
Speaker 1: so long that when you hear the premise and then
Speaker 1: you hear the year it's made, You're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is probably a fucking nightmare. Yeah it's not. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of missed opportunities. Yeah, there is some stuff that
Speaker 1: is poorly handled, but it's But unlike other sort of
Speaker 1: cross dressing movies that came out around this time, this
Speaker 1: movie doesn't seem like it's setting out to make a
Speaker 1: joke of the gender play as much as it is like,
Speaker 1: let's give Robin Williams a vehicle. It just seems like
Speaker 1: it's really catered to like what he's good at and
Speaker 1: ways he can be funny, and it's not. It doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like they're setting out to say anything about gender necessarily, right,
Speaker 1: which is where like the missed opportunity comes in. But
Speaker 1: it's also like they're not. Yeah, like there's five million
Speaker 1: hours of Robin Williams improvised footage that ye like, I shudder, like,
Speaker 1: I just it makes me exhausted just thinking of how
Speaker 1: much a lot of freestyle goofing a lot of it. Two,
Speaker 1: which is problematic is he's like appropriating other cultures. There's
Speaker 1: a couple of racist things in here. Also, very very white,
Speaker 1: very white movie. No people with speaking lines, speaking lines,
Speaker 1: no people with people of color, with people we see.
Speaker 1: We see a number of women over forty, but they're
Speaker 1: all mean. Also, this is Doubtfire is technically a sixty
Speaker 1: year old woman, but she is not real and she's
Speaker 1: played by a forty year old man. Yeah right, which
Speaker 1: makes for an interesting discussion about the Bechtel test. So
Speaker 1: for me, my friend Lisa, when she watches this movie
Speaker 1: genuinely forgets that they're the same person. Okay, yeah, she
Speaker 1: just like has such a hard time keeping track of
Speaker 1: that and she just thinks that people when she watches that.
Speaker 1: It also makes me very yeah, like why is this
Speaker 1: dinner so stressful? Well, for me, when I was trying
Speaker 1: to figure out if it passed the Backtel test or not,
Speaker 1: I was not counting Mrs Doubtfire's character as a woman,
Speaker 1: because even though that character is presenting as a woman,
Speaker 1: it's not someone who identifies actually as a woman. So
Speaker 1: to me, Mrs Doubtfire is still yeah, it's still it's
Speaker 1: still a scene that a man can watch and identify
Speaker 1: with that character in some way. Yeah. I think that
Speaker 1: this would this would be harder to apply to a
Speaker 1: movie like to see where the male character does get
Speaker 1: so deep into the female persona, but this one is, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's all pretty certain, right, Yes, So because of that,
Speaker 1: I would say I think the movie still does passes. Yes,
Speaker 1: there's a scene where the daughters are talking about what
Speaker 1: they did in school that day. I painted a picture
Speaker 1: of a bunny and the teacher liked it. Yeah, ding, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's also scenes where Nadia is like, why do
Speaker 1: we need a housekeeper? Yeah, not a little bit, we
Speaker 1: need a housekeeper anyway. Miranda says, this is all I
Speaker 1: need right now, because she's such they're literally shrewing at
Speaker 1: each other. But then Lydia said, um, why can't Dad
Speaker 1: do it? So then she brings up a dead and
Speaker 1: then it stops passing. But yeah, there's You would think
Speaker 1: there would be more, considering there are so many female
Speaker 1: characters in the movie, between the two daughters and Miranda
Speaker 1: and all the many other women who you see, maybe
Speaker 1: only peripherally, But yeah, there's only those kind of handful
Speaker 1: of scenes where there's another one where Miranda says, like,
Speaker 1: where were you guys, And they're like, we were upstairs
Speaker 1: doing our homework. Missus doubtfire, so we had to But
Speaker 1: it's just these very quick exchanges. You think there'd be
Speaker 1: more for a movie that you know, I have so
Speaker 1: many women in it, but nope, a lot of them
Speaker 1: are very isolated from each other. Yes, yeah that's true. Um,
Speaker 1: does anyone have any final thoughts before we write the movie?
Speaker 1: I think we we We talked about this a little bit,
Speaker 1: but yeah, the the soundtrack of this movie. There the
Speaker 1: four main tracks that are not instrumental are Dude, looks
Speaker 1: like a lady, walk like a man, Luck be a lady.
Speaker 1: Papa's got a brand new bag. So whoever is choosing
Speaker 1: for this music for this movie, grow up? All right,
Speaker 1: So let's write the movie on our nipple scale when
Speaker 1: we eight based on its portrayal of women, specifically zero
Speaker 1: to five nipples. Oh, this is another tricky one, I get.
Speaker 1: Oh god, I don't even know. Maybe a two and
Speaker 1: a half doesn't deserve more exactly what I was going
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, all right, well we're still I just
Speaker 1: wanted to give Pierce bros And three nipples. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to me, it's like in the middle two and a half.
Speaker 1: Because what we already sort of mentioned the missed opportunities
Speaker 1: to comment on more meaningful things, you know, gender roles
Speaker 1: and um, I mean we haven't talked about this, but like,
Speaker 1: child custody is one of men's rights activists biggest fucking
Speaker 1: forgrom like issues, and this movie does kind of come
Speaker 1: down on their side a bit that doesn't challenge Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like men's rights activists are always talking about how
Speaker 1: women are favored in custody battles and that's a proof
Speaker 1: that women don't have to advantages in society, and it's like,
Speaker 1: give me a fucking me a fucking tire iron. So
Speaker 1: in that way, like you know, they didn't know that
Speaker 1: when they made this movie. But also that is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a thing that's get splayed into here.
Speaker 1: That's true, and it is interesting that we see so
Speaker 1: much custody battle stuff as well. I mean they lay
Speaker 1: a lot of pipe in those scenes, so it kind
Speaker 1: of makes sense where that's like, that's when he explains
Speaker 1: like I need to see my kids every day. I've
Speaker 1: never not seen them every day, and you're like, that's
Speaker 1: why he does the misses doubtfa. I think that's the
Speaker 1: first time we kind of hear that even so, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: missed our opportunities and things could have been handled better
Speaker 1: or differently. But yeah, I'd say like it's probably I mean,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the movie White Chicks, but it probably
Speaker 1: does a better job when handling these issues. That's a
Speaker 1: hot ta. I don't know for sure. I haven't seen
Speaker 1: that White Chicks, but I'm sure this is better. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, blown away. Okay heard it here first.
Speaker 1: White Chicks probably isn't a good movie. Icons So yeah,
Speaker 1: two and a half and Mrs Seller gets two of
Speaker 1: my nipples because I think she's underappreciated. She's just doing
Speaker 1: her job. She shows up on time. One thing I
Speaker 1: think is really interesting about the Mrs Seller character is
Speaker 1: like she's so hostile at Daniel, but when she meets
Speaker 1: Mrs Doubtfire, You're like, oh, she's relaxed. She's like it
Speaker 1: feels this immediate kinship and you don't really it's not
Speaker 1: doesn't get explored that much, but you're kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I immediately see a different side of this character now
Speaker 1: that she's around a woman. It is nice to see that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll and I'm sure like in context of her job,
Speaker 1: she has to deal with shitty deadbeat your time, Like
Speaker 1: I understand the hostel She's like, let me take your
Speaker 1: face cream and also rub it on my face. Yeah? What,
Speaker 1: what a weird movie. Oh and then my other half nipple. Um,
Speaker 1: I will give to Harvey Fierstein. He earned it, man,
Speaker 1: he really did. Gay, I'll give it two and a
Speaker 1: half as well. I'll succumb to the don't we don't
Speaker 1: don't let us peer pressure you. No, I I I'm
Speaker 1: with it. I'm giving two and a half nipples to
Speaker 1: Pierce Brosnan to do with what he will. But I
Speaker 1: agree with what you're saying. I think that most of this.
Speaker 1: I think that this movie would have worked a lot
Speaker 1: better for me if we saw even one scene of
Speaker 1: Miranda connecting with her kids or just like seeing that
Speaker 1: just because she is a single mom who works does
Speaker 1: not just automatically mean that she's cold and can't connect
Speaker 1: with her kids. So if we saw that, I think
Speaker 1: that it would have been higher rating. But it's just
Speaker 1: mostly missed opportunities. Um, and kind of a little bit
Speaker 1: of lazy writing when it comes to writing female characters. Yes,
Speaker 1: browsn in, however does get all my nipples? Well? That
Speaker 1: sends an interesting message, Jamie. Um, do you like to
Speaker 1: be problematic? Uh? Yeah, you know what, I'm going to
Speaker 1: round it up to three nipples, I think, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just giving it some slack for when it
Speaker 1: came out. And also like, how much of this movie
Speaker 1: is just about Robin Williams and not about the premise
Speaker 1: of the movie. Really just tears through this movie kind
Speaker 1: of regardless of what was in the script, probably, and
Speaker 1: he's like, give me a movie where I can do voices. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much. And it was like, you know, at the time,
Speaker 1: it was a perfect vehicle for him, So yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: give it three nipples. And again, yeah, sexualizing Pierce Brosnan
Speaker 1: and that being the only like sex in the movie.
Speaker 1: I liked reparations. Yeah, the female gaze was catered to
Speaker 1: in this movie. Yeah, yeah, oh god, can you imagine, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: just getting to be around Pierce Brosnuck. There are a
Speaker 1: few moments in the movie where Daniel, usually dressed as
Speaker 1: Mrs Doultfire, will like kind of leer at a woman
Speaker 1: or like trying to buy her a drink, which is
Speaker 1: weird because it's like, you just experienced a guy hitting
Speaker 1: on you and how uncomfortable that made you. Why would
Speaker 1: you then turn around and do that and do something
Speaker 1: to a woman. I think that that Yeah, harkens back
Speaker 1: to again of Mrs Doubtfire just being strictly treated as
Speaker 1: a costume by the narrative as well. Yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 1: he could have learned a little bit of a lesson,
Speaker 1: but it turns out maiden't. It's also funny that in
Speaker 1: those scenes it's not like, oh, a woman bought her
Speaker 1: a drink, so she's creeped out, and not like, oh,
Speaker 1: a woman bought her a drink and so she's so
Speaker 1: relieved that it's not a terrifying man. Yeah, this is uh,
Speaker 1: this is a lesser horror. Usually. Yeah, that didn't try.
Speaker 1: If if an older woman was like, here, let me
Speaker 1: buy you a drink, I'd be like yeah, thanks, yeah, cool, okay,
Speaker 1: yeah I would accept that so quick, like oh hell
Speaker 1: yeah wait what? Thank you? All right? Anyway, Emily, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for being here, Thanks for having me,
Speaker 1: for bringing us this movie. Yeah, where can people find
Speaker 1: you online? Do you have anything you'd like to plug?
Speaker 1: I'm at Mr Emily Heller on everything. Also, I'm recording
Speaker 1: my second album on January a Curious Comedy Theater in Portland,
Speaker 1: So if you live in Portland, please come to that. Also,
Speaker 1: after I watched this movie, my boyfriend made a lot
Speaker 1: of really funny Mrs down Fire memes that I retweeted,
Speaker 1: so you please go find them. Great. You can follow
Speaker 1: us at bechtel Cast on all the platforms Twitter, Instagram, Facebook.
Speaker 1: You can go to our website beactel cast dot com.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon Patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: bectel Cast if you pay five dollars a month are
Speaker 1: really good? Sorry? Uh yeah. If you give us five
Speaker 1: dollars a month, you get access to two bonus episodes
Speaker 1: in a month, and then you help us with our
Speaker 1: production costs. Oh man, I can't wait. I can't wait.
Speaker 1: You can divide me on Twitter at Hamburg and you
Speaker 1: can find me at Caitlin Durante. Oh my god, you
Speaker 1: guys got to check out these means. There's like capitalization
Speaker 1: is very funny. It's I've never seen new written out emails.
Speaker 1: It's one capital all right, all right, Well thanks for
Speaker 1: this thing and bye by