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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Topolski,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very excited about today's show. We've got a

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Speaker 1: tremendous guest. I've been listening to this podcast which just

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Speaker 1: came out to its early days called Stiff, which is

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Speaker 1: really about I'm not going to get too much into

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Speaker 1: the explanation, is that two of my favorite things, which

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Speaker 1: is pornography and magazines. So we should just get into

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Speaker 1: the conversation. We've got the creator and the host here,

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Speaker 1: Jennifer Ramalini, and she's going to tell us all about

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Speaker 1: it and talk about this fascinating story.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I should bring this up, but

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to bring it up place do. I

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Speaker 2: was like, I know him? How do I know him?

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Speaker 2: Because I, on my own career was a digital media

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Speaker 2: executive and your name came up a lot. But I

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Speaker 2: was mixing you up with some other guy who's a

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Speaker 2: total asshole, and is it I want to know it?

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Speaker 2: Like another boy genius who got to be like the

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Speaker 2: head of something, while like no ladies were getting any

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Speaker 2: funding except if they were strutting around like men. So

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Speaker 2: that was it. And I was like, is this going

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Speaker 2: to give me PTSD being on this, you know, like,

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Speaker 2: and then I looked up and I was like, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: it's him.

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Speaker 1: I hope not. I'm pretty I'm pretty harmless for the

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Speaker 1: most part. I think I probably the first off first

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Speaker 1: a huge compliment. I think you kind of off handedly

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Speaker 1: referred to me as a boy genius, which I like

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Speaker 1: sounds great, which one makes me feel youthful, which I'm

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Speaker 1: definitely not, and also like a genius anyhow, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: don't think we've ever actually met, no, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like we know a ton of the same people, which.

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Speaker 2: Is, yeah, we know a lot of this, all the

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Speaker 2: same scammers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You know, it's funny. I'm dying now to

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Speaker 1: know who this person is you're thinking of. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: going through there's so many men who kind of could

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Speaker 1: fit the description of like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just like bullshitters who were just getting all the

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Speaker 2: money in the time when I was working in digital

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Speaker 2: media where I was like getting pats on the head

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Speaker 2: and like that I should wear more fuck me pumps and.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, somebody somebody actually say you should

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Speaker 1: wear more fuck me pumps.

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Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent. That's like the least of it.

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Speaker 2: I was getting pats on the head, pats on the

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Speaker 2: bare knees, you know.

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Speaker 1: I know, no actual pats, Yeah, pats, real pets. I now, listen,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'm going to be confronted with something in the future.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like when I hear these stories about

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Speaker 1: guys in media, I'm like, wow, I'm like pretty normal

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, as far as I know, it never

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Speaker 1: occurred to me to like pat anybody on the head.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you know who knows well.

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Speaker 2: To be fair. This was the time when like just

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Speaker 2: the worst businessmen, like not a creative in their body,

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Speaker 2: like it could barely even spell. We're like taking over media.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking of so many people right now that would

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Speaker 1: fall into this category.

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Speaker 2: And it was like they're giving you direction. And at

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Speaker 2: this point, I'm doing this for ten fifteen years and

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Speaker 2: they're saying no, no, no, you need a story on this, right.

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Speaker 2: I remember some one guy was like, you should put

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Speaker 2: more nip slips on the webs on the website, and

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't think women want to see

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Speaker 2: nip slips, certain.

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Speaker 1: Nip slips, Okay, sorry what website?

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Speaker 2: Was this just to because I was I was in

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Speaker 2: magazines for a long time. I was in magazines for

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Speaker 2: like the first eight years of my career, and then

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Speaker 2: then for the next ten or so I was in digital.

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Speaker 2: I was at Yahoo for a long time. I love Yahoo,

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Speaker 2: and then come on my favorite Yahoo.

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Speaker 1: Nobody I worked today, well when I started this business, so.

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Speaker 2: Nobody loves Yahoo, and nobody's loved Yahoo since it was

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Speaker 2: like a competitor with Alta Vista, Like, it's.

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Speaker 1: Time to return to Yahoo's what the world I don't.

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Speaker 2: Even know what it's called now, It's like Verizon Yahoo.

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Speaker 2: It's like Verizon who I don't it's changed names so

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Speaker 2: many times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but no.

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Speaker 2: A lot of male executives like sort of like circled

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Speaker 2: through there and I ran a very successful women's site

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Speaker 2: for them, and it was not quality, but it was

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Speaker 2: very successful and met all of the demands that needed

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Speaker 2: to meet.

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Speaker 1: Nip nip slips on that website.

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Speaker 2: No nip slips, but you know a lot of like

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Speaker 2: you know, things you didn't know you could do with

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Speaker 2: your dishwasher, okay, like low budget recipes. It was like

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Speaker 2: I understood the directive, which was, let's make a USA

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Speaker 2: today for you know, for women online, and that's what

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Speaker 2: we did. And we had fifty million unique users, and

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Speaker 2: you know it was crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's like a broad consumer offering for the ladies.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that. I get that. Lots of that

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Speaker 1: on the Internet now, too much of it now. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: we have to we have to stop. We have to

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Speaker 1: stop the Internet. Okay, So I've been listening to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You've got this new podcast called Stiff, which is about

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Speaker 1: a lot of what we're talking about. Actually right now,

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Speaker 1: I assume it's on your mind. Yeah, it's also for me.

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Speaker 1: I'm a magazine like freak, like I love magazine. Yes,

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Speaker 1: to me, this story is such a media story about

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Speaker 1: the creation of a magazine and all of the things

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Speaker 1: that can go wrong, and all of the personalities and

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Speaker 1: the ways they can clash. But just to get into it,

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Speaker 1: can you tell me if you oka you're describing this

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Speaker 1: podcast as somebody who's never heard of it before, could

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Speaker 1: you give me the description of what the show is

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Speaker 1: about and what you want it to be about.

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Speaker 2: So, in nineteen seventy three, Bob Guccioni launches a feminist

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Speaker 2: porn magazine called Viva. The price of Admission for these

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Speaker 2: feminist writers, these very scrappy seventies feminist writers, very smart,

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Speaker 2: coming from the village voice, coming from Miz, coming out

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Speaker 2: of Newsweek. The price of admission for them to be

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Speaker 2: able to write all of these stories that they really

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Speaker 2: want to write, really progressive stories about sexuality and desire

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Speaker 2: and careers and ambition and almost really interesting, meaty topics.

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Speaker 2: They published a lot of fiction, really interesting magazine. The

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Speaker 2: price of admission for them is that they are in

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Speaker 2: a feminist porn magazine. And next to their really smart

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Speaker 2: and compelling articles that have like beautiful headlines and beautiful art,

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Speaker 2: are these very clumsy pictures of Dix. So it was

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Speaker 2: supposed to be a porn magazine, Eurotica magazine for women,

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Speaker 2: but Guccioni never let them in on any of the decisions.

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Speaker 2: Bob Guccioni, in case anybody doesn't know it, was the

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Speaker 2: founder of Penhouse. Penhouse. When he published it was a

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Speaker 2: runaway success, one of the biggest magazine success stories of

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Speaker 2: all time. It started to beat Playboy right away. He

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Speaker 2: had very good business instincts. He started to show pubis

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Speaker 2: because Hugh Hefner was not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a great instinct.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no, I mean it was, I mean the

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Speaker 2: way and the way he showed it was not It

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Speaker 2: was not raunchy at least then he was. He was

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Speaker 2: doing a lot of the photography himself. It was done

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Speaker 2: really cheaply. Some of the people who worked for him,

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Speaker 2: who went on to work at startups were like, working

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Speaker 2: for him was how I to work at a startup

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Speaker 2: because everything was pretty budget but it looked really good. Right.

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Speaker 2: So he's come off this like runaway success with Penhouse.

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Speaker 2: He's got all this money and he decides or he

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Speaker 2: steals the idea from one of his female editors at

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Speaker 2: Penhouse to start a Penhouse for women, and he hires

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Speaker 2: all of these, as I said, smart feminist, scrappy writers,

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Speaker 2: but he doesn't give them any say on what the

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Speaker 2: erotica looks like. So the magazine is incredibly disjointed. It's

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Speaker 2: like almost a parody of female sexuality in terms of

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Speaker 2: its erotica, and it's porn. I mean, it's just these

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Speaker 2: like balancing dicks in ridiculous poses. All the editors are like, ugh,

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Speaker 2: I would have never have been turned on by that.

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Speaker 2: But they get to write anything they want. They have

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Speaker 2: a lot of money, they're paying a lot by the word,

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Speaker 2: they're hiring really incredible writers. They're doing like feminist symposiums.

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Speaker 2: It's a really interesting magazine that makes absolutely no sense,

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Speaker 2: and it's beautiful, it's highly designed, it's expensive, and I

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Speaker 2: am also a magazine freak. Like it was the only

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Speaker 2: thing I ever wanted to do. I've been collecting magazines forever.

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Speaker 2: When I came across this in like two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 2: no earlier than that, like two thousand and four, actually

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Speaker 2: I had never seen anything like it. It was like,

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Speaker 2: this was the magazine I had wished I had worked for. Right,

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Speaker 2: you could feel that this was a time when this

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Speaker 2: was writing and stories and not content. This was before

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Speaker 2: we started calling what we do content. And like Viva

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Speaker 2: never made any money, and it wasn't about that. It

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Speaker 2: was about like this sort of spirit of creativity and collaboration.

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Speaker 2: And so the podcast just sort of follows the whole

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Speaker 2: arc of the magazine, which is from seventy three to

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Speaker 2: seventy nine, and it really tracks that entire time period,

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Speaker 2: like the early seventies hopefulness, you know, Roe V. Wade

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Speaker 2: has passed to seventy nine, when the moral Majority is

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Speaker 2: coming in, Reagan's coming in, everything's changing, the feminist movement

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Speaker 2: is fractured and so it's losing all its power. So

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to tell the story about this magazine

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Speaker 2: and tell a really dorky inside baseball story about magazines,

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Speaker 2: but also the arc of the sexual revolution, the parallels

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Speaker 2: to today, how the sexual revolution wasn't actually that revolutionary

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Speaker 2: for women at all, all of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I've been listening to it. I haven't listened

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Speaker 1: to all of it. I don't even know if is

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Speaker 1: all of it out yet or are you're releasing it now?

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Speaker 1: Like it's a week we're.

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Speaker 2: In we're in process of releasing, so I think we're

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Speaker 2: up to episode As of the time we're recording this,

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Speaker 2: we're up to episode four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've listened to I started the third episode,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not too not doing too bad. Your description

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Speaker 1: of it encompasses a lot of I mean, it's such

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Speaker 1: an interesting story and the character is in it, and

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Speaker 1: I have to actually say, and perhaps this will make

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Speaker 1: me sound like a complete pervert, but I'm interesting in

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Speaker 1: particularly from these past eras like sixties and seventies Playboy,

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Speaker 1: and so I've collected a few of these types of

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Speaker 1: magazines that you know, like but I had never heard

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Speaker 1: of Viva, and as soon as I started listening to it,

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Speaker 1: I'm all right, let me Google, let me look at

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Speaker 1: this thing. And it is like extremely fucking cool looking,

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Speaker 1: like it just looks like a really really cool magazine.

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Speaker 1: I remember when I was a teenager, I guess, and

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Speaker 1: I first saw like Nylon, which was a magazine that

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Speaker 1: was not for boys. I guess, like generally speaking, it

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Speaker 1: was like a girl's magazine. Yeah, And I bought issues

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Speaker 1: of it because I was like, this is so cool

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Speaker 1: and interesting and has such good stories, like I don't

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Speaker 1: even care like who it's supposed to be for or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like looking at Viva had a very

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Speaker 1: similar reaction. But like I was looking at images of

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Speaker 1: it and then listening to your show, and there's such

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Speaker 1: an interesting thread of like dissonance that that you kind

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Speaker 1: of center on in a lot of these conversations where

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Speaker 1: in my mind I only imagine Bob Guccioni, and he's

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Speaker 1: sort of like this very tan guy. He's like a

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Speaker 1: very very tan seventies guy.

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Speaker 2: He's like a caricature of seventies masculine. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't even look like a real person. He's got

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Speaker 2: the gold chains, the chest hair, he's greasy's the exactly

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Speaker 2: all right.

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Speaker 1: And in my mind, because I grew up, you know,

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Speaker 1: the seventies, is you know, sort if I was a

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Speaker 1: baby in the seventies, late seventies. But Bob Goocjdi was

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Speaker 1: in the public light still for a long a long time,

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Speaker 1: and he was like a figure, you know, he was

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Speaker 1: like a Hugh halfnar kind of guy. But in my

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Speaker 1: mind I always imagined him as being this extra sleazy

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Speaker 1: seventies guy like which he definitely was to some extent.

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Speaker 1: But you have a ton of recordings of him talking,

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Speaker 1: and he sounds so much more interesting and intelligent than

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Speaker 1: I think my or the public perception of him was.

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Speaker 1: As you started to research this, was that surprising to

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Speaker 1: you at all?

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Speaker 2: I guess it was surprising. But he was a big

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Speaker 2: draw for me because as soon as I started to

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Speaker 2: learn anything about him, I realized that he was a

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Speaker 2: fascinating character and that it wasn't going to be easy

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Speaker 2: to just paint him as a villain, which who wants that?

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Speaker 2: Who wants like a boring villain? That he was multifaceted

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Speaker 2: and he didn't really want to be a pornographer. He

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Speaker 2: wanted to be an artist, Like he really wanted to

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Speaker 2: be an artist. He moved to Europe when he was

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Speaker 2: like in his early twenties with like a couple of

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Speaker 2: paint brushes and twenty four dollars. And I actually own

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Speaker 2: one of his lithographs. Like his style is like very

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Speaker 2: like Picasso want to be.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: But he really he really loved art, and he really

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Speaker 2: loved women. And he was still a product of his time,

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Speaker 2: you know, in terms of gender roles, and you know,

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Speaker 2: his masculinity and like dominating and everything else. And he

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Speaker 2: was also Italian American, which was also interesting for me

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Speaker 2: because I'm Italian American. But he was a really complicated

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Speaker 2: person and I think did a lot of good for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people. He was really loyal, He paid

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Speaker 2: women really well. He made women executives. You know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the women I spoke to said he made

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Speaker 2: me in my career, he let me. That's where I

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Speaker 2: came alive, was working under him. Like it's when it

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Speaker 2: was the best time of my life.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And I don't hear that shit about Hugh Hefner.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is interesting. Hefner certainly a larger figure

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Speaker 1: on like this on the global stage when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this space. But I guess not a great person.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't done enough of like reading on

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Speaker 1: Hugh Aftn to know exactly all of his flaws, though

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Speaker 1: I understand there were many. One of the things I

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Speaker 1: love about shows like yours, and in particular, what I've

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Speaker 1: enjoyed so far in this is like I didn't know

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Speaker 1: any of this, and I think I had a perception

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Speaker 1: of who these people were in this place in time

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Speaker 1: that was not actually square with reality. And and so

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Speaker 1: I think like kind of as an aside, not even

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Speaker 1: like your main course is not like let me recontextualize

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Speaker 1: Bob GUCCIONI for you, but it is a very interesting

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Speaker 1: thing to hear. And on top of that, and this

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Speaker 1: is one that I think you haven't so far, you

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Speaker 1: haven't talked about explicitly, but at the time, like magazines

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Speaker 1: were massively important in a way that they're not now,

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Speaker 1: And I'm interested to know, like you talk about Penhouse,

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Speaker 1: which in my lifetime has always just been like, it's

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Speaker 1: a porn magazine. Yeah, And in fact, my understanding of

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Speaker 1: Penhouse was like it's not just a porn magazine, but

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Speaker 1: like where Playboy was known for the articles or for

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Speaker 1: the great writers or whatever. Penhouse was like, it's whatever,

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Speaker 1: weird step cousin that didn't care about any of that

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Speaker 1: and was just invested in like showing as much as

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Speaker 1: they could. Is that also an inaccurate perception of like

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Speaker 1: what he'd been doing with Penhouse?

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Speaker 2: It is. I think Guccioni had a branding problem, right.

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Speaker 2: Unlike hef who was like playing by the rules, super slick,

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Speaker 2: Guccioni was like pushing boundaries everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So for the answer to the beginning of your question,

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Speaker 2: it's absolutely Penhouse had great articles, it had great writers,

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Speaker 2: it had no problem, It had amazing celebrity interviews. Because

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Speaker 2: the seventies, people wanted to be associated with porn, which

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Speaker 2: is a weird thing to say now because we can't

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Speaker 2: even imagine that now, right, Like it's just it's a

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Speaker 2: totally different life, But there was pornosk happening in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: You know, Deep Throat is in mainstream theaters. Celebrities like

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Speaker 2: Johnny Carson and Angela Lansberry are lining up to see

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Speaker 2: Deep Throat like proudly it's separately, but like Jack Nicholson,

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Speaker 2: like it was like a cool thing. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's cultural currency.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So they had no problem, even Penhouse at the time,

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Speaker 2: getting real writers, real stories. So the journalism was really excellent.

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Speaker 2: Bob GUCCIONI just wanted the world to be different. He

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Speaker 2: thought it was such bullshit that we were so uptight

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Speaker 2: about sex, that we were so uptight about naked bodies.

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Speaker 2: That he just was trying to like break through every

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Speaker 2: sort of taboo. And he was really brave in a

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Speaker 2: way that I think Hugh Hefner was not. And he

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Speaker 2: pushed limits. You know, he did the oh god, why

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Speaker 2: can I think of her name? The Miss America photos

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Speaker 2: of Vanessa Williams. Vanessa Williams, Yes, right, yes, he published

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Speaker 2: those in Penhouse. He published Vanessa Williams photos and Penhouse

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Speaker 2: and people were up in arms about this, and he

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Speaker 2: was like, he was like, look, she signed the release,

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Speaker 2: she knew what she was doing. There's no reason. But

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Speaker 2: also it's not a big deal. These photos are not

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Speaker 2: a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Right. That comes up a lot his attitude towards sex

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Speaker 1: and nudity. I mean, it is He's right, I mean

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Speaker 1: it is insane, I think, particularly in America. I mean

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Speaker 1: obviously this is not just an American thing, but we

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Speaker 1: are insanely puritanical and prudish about things that don't seem

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Speaker 1: like that big of a deal. And the point about

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Speaker 1: like it being like this kind of moment where like

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Speaker 1: porn was having a moment is interesting because I do

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Speaker 1: think it seeped into the culture. I think it's much

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Speaker 1: more like I think if you're like you could be

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Speaker 1: a huge celebrity and then you have an OnlyFans like

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Speaker 1: where you do some nudity or whatever, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that that's a big deal anymore. Like I feel like

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Speaker 1: we've we've moved beyond that, you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like to think about all of this and to kind

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Speaker 1: of think about this like liberation moment or this moment

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Speaker 1: like you were talking about, and frankly, like what what

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Speaker 1: drives Viva's existence? In some ways, this sort of moment

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Speaker 1: for women where you didn't have to be you know,

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Speaker 1: the housewife or whatever or be ashamed about, you know,

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Speaker 1: your sexuality or whatever. In light of what's going on

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Speaker 1: in the world right now where we've got like, you know,

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Speaker 1: these huge political movements that are like trying to like

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Speaker 1: rewind the clock in some way. It's interesting to hear

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Speaker 1: how how many women were like wanted to participate in

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Speaker 1: this in this space, like and I think like the

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Speaker 1: hearing like a lot of the people who joined Viva,

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Speaker 1: they were both embracing like the concept that there would

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Speaker 1: it would be about sex, and it would be about

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Speaker 1: porn and all these other things like, but also that

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Speaker 1: it didn't have to just be about that. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like we've lost That's the thing that feels like

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Speaker 1: it's missing now, that like porn or sexuality or expl

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Speaker 1: duration of that stuff can coexist on a higher intellectual

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Speaker 1: plane in a popular form. That to me is something

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Speaker 1: that doesn't exist anymore, Like we've neutered like that type

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Speaker 1: of content. And I just wonder, like, you know, can

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Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what the editorial ethos

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Speaker 1: was for the women working at Viva versus what Bob

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Speaker 1: Goccioni was trying to do.

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Speaker 2: So Viva comes out of the late sixties early seventies

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Speaker 2: pro sex feminist movement right where they're really starting to

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Speaker 2: talk about the c literal orgasm. They're starting to talk

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Speaker 2: about female pleasure because the pill had come along in

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Speaker 2: the sixties, So now women are sort of free to

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Speaker 2: explore their sexuality a little bit, right, Yeah, and this

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Speaker 2: was a very confusing time for women because they're all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, they have all this sexual freedom, but

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Speaker 2: they don't have any sexual protections. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: sexual assault happening. There's a lot of men demanding that

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Speaker 2: their hip and sexy men pretty quickly comman dear this

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Speaker 2: this sort of sexual freedom and take it away from them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. Who could imagine such a shop exactly.

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Speaker 2: You look at a movie like Deep Throat, which is

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Speaker 2: about a woman who has orgasms can only have an

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Speaker 2: orgasm because her clitteress is in the back of her throat,

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Speaker 2: and she can only have an orgasm from giving a

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Speaker 2: deep blowjob. Right.

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Speaker 1: Is that's and that's medically accurate. That's a problem for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously, no, I mean, look so, but what happens

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Speaker 2: is this becomes a mockery of everything that these women

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Speaker 2: in the late sixties early seventies were trying to do, right,

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Speaker 2: which is liberate themselves and say we're sexually free beings.

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Speaker 2: And so what happens is men sort of commandeer it.

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Speaker 2: Let's say, straight white men sort of commandeer this. This liberation,

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Speaker 2: and then the feminist movement fractures in two. There's still

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Speaker 2: sort of pro sex, sex positive feminine and there's the

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Speaker 2: second arm of feminism, which is the anti porn feminist

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Speaker 2: like Andrea Dworkin, who say, you know, porn equates violence.

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Speaker 2: No matter what, porn is always violent, And these pro

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Speaker 2: sex feminists are saying, well, you know, actually, actually this

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Speaker 2: could be about you know, our desire and our pleasure.

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Speaker 2: So Viva's like coming right as this moment is happening

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Speaker 2: in the in the feminist movement, and what it should

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Speaker 2: have been able to do was build a bridge between

401
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Speaker 2: the two sects of feminism, right, the two sections of feminism.

402
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Speaker 2: It should have been able to build that bridge and

403
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Speaker 2: say because they did this big rape issue that Bob

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Speaker 2: actually fired a senior editor over because he didn't want

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Speaker 2: their magazine to be about like, you know, sad issues

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Speaker 2: like rape and sexual assault. He wanted to be entertainment.

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Speaker 1: I actually saw the cover of that one, which is

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Speaker 1: really dissonant. Like the cover I believe is like a

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Speaker 1: man and a woman that look like they're having a

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Speaker 1: blast or whatever. That I think is related to.

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Speaker 2: He's got a gun. He's got a gun. And she's

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Speaker 2: got a gun, he's smoking a cigar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super And then it's like rape. It's like

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Speaker 1: the rape issue or something. I'm like, uh, okay, like

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Speaker 1: what is going on? It's like a yeah, actually it's funny,

416
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Speaker 1: but it encapsulates a lot of the dissonance you're talking

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Speaker 1: about within that magazine, within the culture of it, like

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Speaker 1: is this serious? Is it joking? Like? And if it's joking,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem like a good place to be. So yeah, interesting,

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Speaker 1: he fired somebody over that issue.

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Speaker 2: He fired somebody over that issue. He didn't know about it.

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Speaker 2: He was one of those bosses who sort of dips

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Speaker 2: in and out, but when he parachutes in he knows

424
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Speaker 2: best and like he sort of fucks up all the work.

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Speaker 2: You but can I curse on this podcast?

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Speaker 1: You absolutely can and should Okay.

427
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Speaker 2: He would air drop in and so the the other

428
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Speaker 2: thing is is if you ever have run any like

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Speaker 2: any editorial product, right, you know that one thing that

430
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Speaker 2: you really need is cohesion. When we worked at magazines,

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Speaker 2: you know, Kim Frantz who was my boss at Lucky Magazine,

432
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: who had been at Sassy in a bunch of other places.

433
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 2: One thing she said to me was she would open

434
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 2: the magazine of Luck and she would be like, you see,

435
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 2: you know exactly where you are in this magazine when

436
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 2: you open it. There's never a moment where you don't

437
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 2: understand what's happening visually with the word. Like the design matches,

438
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: the words matches, the pacing. You know, this is this

439
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: goes in the front of the book. This is the feature. Well,

440
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: this is the back of the book. Viva had none

441
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: of that. It was just really anything could be happening

442
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: on any page interesting. It was like am Bancroft and

443
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 2: then the next page is like just a really overtan

444
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 2: naked man's ass, like.

445
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 1: Nothing, okay, hold on the ass is is to titillate?

446
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: Or like is that supposed to be? Like the hot

447
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: part of it?

448
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 2: It was, but it didn't make sense next to this,

449
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: like Q and A. If you ever have worked in

450
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,239
Speaker 2: a magazine, you know that on the you know, on

451
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: a wall of the office you work in, you have

452
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 2: the entire issue, the page by page, right, yeah, and

453
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 2: you're looking at it and you're moving things around and saying, well, wait,

454
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: does that make sense there? Does that ad make sense?

455
00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: There?

456
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: You're trying to create one experience, which is part of

457
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: the delight of the entire enterprise, right yeap. This was

458
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: when I started to realize this was going to be

459
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 2: a really fascinating story, when I really started paging through

460
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 2: and was like, oh, there's like there's like nobody really

461
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: in charge here.

462
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,880
Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting. Okay, So I because I started looking,

463
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe I should buy some issues of this,

464
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: because I really as soon as I was listening to

465
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: the story and you begin telling the tale and hearing

466
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: these people talk about it, I'm like, Okay, this sounds

467
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: like something I want to look at. And you look

468
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 1: at the covering and you're like, that's awesome. But it

469
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: is exactly to your point. I mean, what makes a

470
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: great magazine is that cohesion. It is that you've collected

471
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: all of these things that seem like they might be

472
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: disparate in some other contexts, and you've pulled them together

473
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: and made them feel of a kind like and you've

474
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: made it feel like a journey from beginning to end.

475
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: That's right.

476
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: That is what I love about the best magazine. It's

477
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: like like like in my mind's eye, I'm like thinking

478
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,439
Speaker 1: of the great moments and magazines that I love and

479
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: the great sections not just right because you go, oh,

480
00:23:59,160 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: there's that.

481
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: Thing, the great, great colleague everything. I mean, yes, they're

482
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: so fun and.

483
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: To do this ambitious thing that you're describing, which is

484
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 1: like can it change the conversation about like women's sexuality

485
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: and all this? And it's like, oh, like you we

486
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: were just doing whatever? I mean? Is that Guccioni, Is

487
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: that his like air dropping in or is it just

488
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: like they don't have the person who's like truly every

489
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: day in charge, Like how does that happen?

490
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 2: Well, it's a couple of things, right, So it's it's

491
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: Bob Guccioni and his partner Kathy Keaton were not real

492
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: publishing people. They had one success with Penhouse, and that

493
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 2: was a little bit of luck and a fluke, right,

494
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: he kind of knew what he was doing. It was

495
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 2: a little bit of luck. And then he hired some

496
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: smart editorial people, mostly women actually to run Penhouse, and

497
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: then because of the success of that, he has a

498
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 2: lot of hubris and he thinks he knows best. So

499
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 2: he goes to the next thing and he doesn't know

500
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: how to hire an editor. And when he does finally

501
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: hire an editor in Patricia Bosworth, which I don't know

502
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: if you know Patricia Bosworth at all, but she's a

503
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,239
Speaker 2: fatacinating figure out.

504
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: I know that name. Really, this sounds really familiar to me.

505
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: Why do I know that?

506
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: She was a model for Diane Arbis. She was an actress,

507
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: She was in a movie alongside Audrey Hepburn, and then

508
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 2: she was a big publishing person in the seventies and eighties,

509
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: and then she wrote a number of celebrity biographies. So

510
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: she wrote the one on Montgomery Cliff, she wrote one

511
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: on Marlon Brando, and that was sort of how like

512
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: she wrote the definitive books.

513
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: She the person who unearthed the story about Montgomery Cliff

514
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: with the Elizabeth Taylor's story. Is that am I thinking

515
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: of the right person? Who? Do you know? The story? Yeah?

516
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about.

517
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: The details of it. But she was the celebrity biographer

518
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: for a while. But for this minute, she was at

519
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: Harper's Bazaar and Bob Guccioni calls her up and he says, hey,

520
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: I need a really classy editor to wrote throughout this magazine.

521
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: And she comes in and she really knows what she's doing,

522
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: and you can really see from like the end of

523
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: seventy four into seventy five, even maybe I would say

524
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 2: a little seventy six. The magazine is the best it's

525
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: ever been. It makes sense. It has that sort of

526
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: journey feeling. It starts and it ends, it's lovely, and

527
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: then she's sort of sidelined because who knows why the

528
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: magazine's not making money. It's you know that he's blaming

529
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: on her. It's really because they can't get cosmetic ads

530
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: because there are penises in the magazine. You know, it's

531
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: like right, but he blames it on her and she

532
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 2: winds up getting fired. And they went through I think

533
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: I forget the exact number right now, but I think

534
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: they went through something like seven editors in as many years,

535
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 2: which is just not enough time to get people to know,

536
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 2: you know.

537
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: That's crazy, Like an editor a year is insane. Yeah, However,

538
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: the idea came up because there is a kind of

539
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: dispute about who actually had the idea for the magazine,

540
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: right right, But it seems like it was like, hey,

541
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: here's a great idea, Like I've done this, I'm sure

542
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 1: you've done it. Where you go, I've got a great idea,

543
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: and it's just the you can just describe the concept

544
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: to somebody and it's like, hey, that would make a

545
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: great whatever.

546
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

547
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: Like I have a book series that I've been talking

548
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: about jokingly for like more than a decade, and I

549
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: can describe like the rough outline of the plot of

550
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: this book. Yeah, but I haven't sat down or written,

551
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: and I have a feeling that when I do, if

552
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: I do, which who fucking knows, right, it's a lot

553
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: more complicated to write the book that it is to

554
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of pitch the idea to somebody, right, And it

555
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: feels like this was like a magazine that had an

556
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: awesome pitch, ye, Like the pitch is awesome, right, Like

557
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: it's really good. And when you hear like a GUCCIONI

558
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: like talking about, you know, his view on women and everything,

559
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this totally checks out. But beyond the pitch,

560
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: just like if you don't have somebody who's driving it

561
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: every day and it knows what it's supposed to look like,

562
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: it's just a pitch.

563
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: Right, and knows what it's supposed to be and knows

564
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: who it's for.

565
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: Who is this for? Yeah?

566
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: And I think that that's always the question you're asking

567
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: whenever you're putting out any kind of editorial product, what's

568
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: our core audience here and how, you know, how do

569
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: we sort of super serve them? And there was there

570
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: was not that understanding. But you know, also a lot

571
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: of these editors. The cool thing about Patti Bosworth when

572
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 2: she came in, she's in her early forties. Most of

573
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: the editors and writers who have worked there were in

574
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: their twenties. It's it's harder to lead when you're in

575
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 2: your twenties. It's harder to have that big picture vision

576
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: because you just haven't done that much yet, you know, right.

577
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's complicated works. Yeah, you know, I'm sort of

578
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: confused though, like and to your point about who it's

579
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: for and who the audience is and how they get

580
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: advertising stuff for a product like this, these kinds of

581
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: questions exist still, Like as you talk about like who's

582
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: the audience? Yep, I think we're actually returning a bit

583
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: in media to a who's the audience? Know? But for real,

584
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: like who is the actual audience? Because we went through

585
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: this whole phase of oh, there's so many people out there,

586
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: just get a huge amount of people to look. It

587
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: doesn't fucking matter who the audience is, right or it's

588
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: a whole generation of people. It's the audience. And it's like, no, actually,

589
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: like what you really need to do is zero in

590
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: on like this small amount but still very valuable group

591
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: of people who will really love the thing that you

592
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: do and give a shit about it. Yes, And what

593
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: I'm what I'm trying to figure out is like, you know,

594
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: the idea is a little bit like a counterpart to

595
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: a Penthouse or a Playboy for women, right right, And

596
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: so there's a great writing all the like the first

597
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: issue or something is like Norman Mailer's in it, which

598
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: is a hilarious choice. I don't the first issue, but

599
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: it's early.

600
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: It's the first issue.

601
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: It's my face.

602
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite details of the whole shell.

603
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: It's amazing the Norman Mailers in like Playboy a lot,

604
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: and like is I've always thought like it's interesting because

605
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: you go back and look at old Playboys. There's like

606
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: an incredible writer. I'm not a Mailer fan, like I

607
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: know a lot of people are, but I'm not. And

608
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: but but he's like the quintessential worst choice, like the

609
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: most perfect bad choice for like a women's publication. He's

610
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: like a guy who like pretty much hates women. So

611
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: it's interesting. But like, here's the thing that I don't understand,

612
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: and you perhaps can shed some light. Perhaps the show

613
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: will at some point. This is again be sound like

614
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: a really fucking dumb question. Let me think of the

615
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: best way to frame this question. Show me give Did

616
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 1: women actually want a magazine with pornography in it like that?

617
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying women don't like porn that's not

618
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that, But like in the context of

619
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: like a Playboy or a Penthouse, was there a market

620
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: demand or did the women who were coming to work

621
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: at it go I want to have these great pieces

622
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: or I want to do an issue about rapists. It's

623
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: like a topic that needs that we need to be

624
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: talking about more. But also it'd be great if there

625
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: was like erotic imagery, because we're talking about imagery. I mean, yes,

626
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: it could be stories whatever, But like these magazines dealt

627
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: in Playboy and Penthouse dealt in they sold on sexy photos.

628
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: Like to just put it simply, was there a market

629
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: and was there a legitimate interest from the people who

630
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: made it who were not Bob GUCCIONI for like that

631
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: type of pornography for women.

632
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: So this is a central question of the podcast, and

633
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: I think that one of the things that I came

634
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: up against again and again from all of the editors

635
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: first off, who would talk to me about their sex

636
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: lives at the time and be very open about that,

637
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: but then would say, oh, you know, can you cut that,

638
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: or I'm so sorry I told you about the people

639
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: I had sex with. Like, there was still a lot

640
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: of shame surrounding sexuality and sexual freedom for these women. Now.

641
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: Like I said, this was a really challenging time for

642
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: them because they didn't really know what they wanted yet.

643
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know if they can answer that question

644
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: accurately given everything they were up against, given the internalized patriarchy,

645
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: given all of that, right, yea, they certainly didn't want

646
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: male photographers and male art directors. They didn't want the

647
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 2: porn that was in Viva, which was a man's idea

648
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: of what a woman wanted. Now, if there had actually

649
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: been erotica through a literal female lens, I don't know

650
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: how that would have went differently, But that was sort

651
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: of unheard of. There weren't women out there shooting porn.

652
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: I mean, right, there were, but it was very niche

653
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: they didn't, you know, they weren't connected to Bob GUCCIONI.

654
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: I think that Candy de Royale doesn't really come along

655
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: till the eighties and we really get into like really

656
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: quality feminist porn. But to answer your question, most simply,

657
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: none of the women who worked there wanted these dicks.

658
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: What they wanted was to make an Esquire for women. Yes,

659
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: that was what they desperately wanted, because Esquire, you know,

660
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: at this time, was like amazing, and they're like, why

661
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: do I have to work on this stupid bullshit A

662
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: good housekeeping?

663
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Right?

664
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: I want to I want to make an Esquire for women,

665
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: and that everybody wanted. I mean when I got into

666
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: magazines in two thousand, we were still like, why is

667
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 2: there no Esquire for women?

668
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: Right? Right? No? I mean that's why I asked, because like,

669
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: what it feels like is like, you want an adult

670
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: magazine that is like addressing women as like complete human beings,

671
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: not like a housewife or like the girlfriend or whatever

672
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: it is that all these magazines would depict. You're pointed

673
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: about Esquire, and there are lots of other publications at

674
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: the time, and certainly Play a Boy was doing this

675
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: where it was for adult men, like he was trying

676
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: to capture this full picture of like your experience as

677
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: a man, you know, and things you might be interested in,

678
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: and things that would titillate you, and things that would

679
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: educate you and you know, struggles or whatever. To me,

680
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: it's like it feels like it's all that but not

681
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: the porn like for women, Like it's all the media

682
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: adult stuff. And I think it's interesting that like maybe

683
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: in some way at that point in time and maybe

684
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: today still like what looks like like I don't know,

685
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: adult content's the wrong word, but I mean it in

686
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: the most direct way of saying, an adult like for

687
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: people who want to think about more than just the

688
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: surface shit, right, Like for it's like stuff that's like

689
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: real and not just like porn. But at that time,

690
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: like if you didn't merge the two, like was sort

691
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: of like how can you make the product right?

692
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 2: Right? Well, because there weren't as many delivery systems, let's

693
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: put it that way, right, there just weren't there weren't

694
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: as many delivery systems for porn, right. I mean, I

695
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: think that we can go down a path that I

696
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: think is inaccurate and like is overly generalized. And you know,

697
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: oh well, one of the things that the women said

698
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: to me, the women who work there, many of them

699
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: said to me, was you know, well, women are just

700
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: not turned on visually like men are. You know, women

701
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: need touch, they need softness, you know. And then when

702
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: I talked to some like modern day feminist pornographers, they

703
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: were like, that's absolute bullshit, right, like straight women are

704
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: turned on by by looking at men's penises, Like this

705
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: is this is absolute garbage, like that women are like

706
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,439
Speaker 2: soft and oh my god, read me a romance novel.

707
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: We have a clout in there or an audio stimpet

708
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: of somebody that you interviewed saying that exact thing, which

709
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: and I was like, yes, I was like, this is

710
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: a thing I've heard, I feel like all my life

711
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: and has been like it's like a cliche about women.

712
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: It's like men are visual and w and need all

713
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: of this other. And I'm not saying that's not true,

714
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: but it's also like, yeah, this is sort of like

715
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: what's so interesting to me is like because it is

716
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: very straightforward, but you're saying it's not. Is it pictures

717
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: of nude men or whatever? It's like what those pictures?

718
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: How those pictures are done like what the right like

719
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 1: to some extent, there's.

720
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: Shot they were shot by male photographers. They were shot

721
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: by straight male photographers, right. And what's interesting is that,

722
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, Viva, like Playboy's readership wound up or a

723
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: subscriber base. At least I don't know about the readership.

724
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 2: I don't know about women who read it. But let's

725
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: just say the people who subscribed to Viva once they

726
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: really got into the subscriber list, it's mostly gay men, right,

727
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 2: I mean because there were very few places, oh right, see,

728
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: and that's the same thing with Playgirl, right. Yeah, But

729
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: it also makes sense to me thinking about these these

730
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: male photographers shooting male nudes. It's a male lens. It's

731
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: gay men enjoy it, right, Huh.

732
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: That wasn't like forty chests or something, right Like, it

733
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: wasn't Bob GUCCIONI wasn't like I'm saying, I'm making a

734
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: ladies magazine but really making a magazine for gay men. No.

735
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: I think he really thought he was making a ladies magazine.

736
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: And I think that in part, you know, whether it

737
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: was his idea or not, I think he did it

738
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: because Playgirl had just come out earlier that year, and

739
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 2: I think he was obsessed with Heffner. He Guccioni hated Hefner,

740
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: He hated everything about him. He found him to be

741
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: a phony and a starfucker and just like the worst.

742
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: And they warred with each other until Guccioni died basically right,

743
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: So I think that Viva was for sure him keeping

744
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: pace with Hefner.

745
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: Oh so Playgirl precedes Fiva.

746
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: By a couple of months.

747
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: Because Playgirl seems like, I don't know was it successful.

748
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: I feel like, do they still make Playgirl or did

749
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: they make it up until pretty recently, I feel like

750
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 1: it never went away play Girl.

751
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: According to Bob Guccioni's son, Bob Guccioni Junior, Yes, Playgirl

752
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: knew it was for gay men. It really had a

753
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: better idea that it was for gay men. Where I

754
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: don't think that the Viva editors understood how many what

755
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: they're that their readership was mostly gay men, or at

756
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 2: least they're subscribers.

757
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: Right.

758
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 2: Playgirl just wasn't as ambitious in any way. It was smaller,

759
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: the trim size was smaller, the photo shoots were not

760
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 2: as ambitious. The writing was for sure not as ambitious.

761
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: And I mean when I looked at old issues of Playgirl,

762
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: I was like, this is like a nothing burger. I

763
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 2: don't care about this at all.

764
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 1: Right, there's no substance to it.

765
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: Viva's dreamy and weird and magical, Like there's just so

766
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: many strange things that happen in it. And then you know,

767
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: at some point Ana windtur comes on and is the

768
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 2: fashion editor, which is like so wild. And also every

769
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: major feminist writer in the seventies wrote for Viva at

770
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: some point, and I just think that that is so.

771
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: I think I just can't believe nobody knows about it, right,

772
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 2: And I really wanted to resurrect this. I really wanted

773
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: to showcase this work because one of the things that

774
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: happens with not just magazines, but any kind of writing

775
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: we've ever done, is it just goes away. It's just

776
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 2: gone forever, you know. Yeah, I knew this was special.

777
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: I could feel it, and I really wanted to showcase

778
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 2: all of their.

779
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: Work, right. I mean, I have to say, just the

780
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: fact that it's been buried the way it has, I mean, like,

781
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: up until I started listening to episode one, didn't really

782
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: know anything about its existence nor the kind of scope

783
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 1: of first off, it was around for a long time,

784
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: like a pretty long time all things considered. Yeah, longer

785
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: than a lot of publications that start these days, you know,

786
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: and had, like you said, like some pretty incredible talent.

787
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: Like now, I don't know, you've you get more into

788
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: the Anna Wintour aspect. Obviously she was pretty early in

789
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: her career. I assume, yeah, she was.

790
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 2: It was there second job.

791
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you don't hear about that mentioned a

792
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: lot in like when people talk about in wintor that. Oh,

793
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: by the way, she was the fashion either at like

794
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: Bob Guccioni's like Ladies porn magazine, which is cool. It's

795
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: like one of the coolest things I've heard about her.

796
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it's striking, Like to your point

797
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: about how things go away, you think about all the

798
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: art and thought and sort of love that went into it. Yeah,

799
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: it's easier to write off this stuff, right because there

800
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: are like, you know, dicks in it or whatever.

801
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a lot of my work is already gone.

802
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: I wrote for magazines that went under, you know, some

803
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: of my favorite stories are just they're just gone. Yeah, right,

804
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: Like maybe I have a clip somewhere, but it's just

805
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: like goes away. And I don't know if that has

806
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: to do with GUCCIONI or just sort of the fleeting

807
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: nature of all of this. You know, I don't know.

808
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: Of all of this, like meaning existence or the magazine world.

809
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 2: Well all, well, I mean everything. I mean the magazine world,

810
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: publishing media. I mean think about like, you know a

811
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: lot of these women. What was interesting is a lot

812
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: of them wrote books and I couldn't find their books.

813
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, they're long out of print.

814
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: Well yeah, We've had this belief that the internet would

815
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: save everything. I mean honestly for real, in the nineties

816
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: and stuff, people talked about the Internet and you're like,

817
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: you'll never lose anything ever again. And what I've found

818
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: to be true, and it particularly in regards to things

819
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: like this, to physical publications or you know, things like records,

820
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: and not only have they gone away, but they're almost

821
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: impossible to get again to find again, right, Like I

822
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 1: don't know, they're digitized versions of Viva that exist anywhere.

823
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: Like no, I was like, oh, in my buying one,

824
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: like somebody's selling a copy of for one hundred dollars,

825
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: which is not a tenable way to you know, keep

826
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: that I could build my own archive of it. But

827
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: it's a big investment, right Like magazines, I guess are

828
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: by nature or seem to be an ephemeral sort of medium,

829
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: right like you throw it out, but you're done with it.

830
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: This month is gone, like a newspaper. But magazines have

831
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: I feel like the stories that are in them and

832
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: in the product that they became has value. Of course.

833
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a room that just off camera, there

834
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: is a I think you have one behind you. It

835
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: looks like one of those Ikia bookcases. I think they

836
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: used to be called Lack They're now called Calyx or something.

837
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: And I have the larger version over next to me,

838
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: and it is filled with magazines. But for me, I'm like,

839
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: I need to keep these for some reason, and I

840
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: don't know why. I don't crack into them very often.

841
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: The other day I was cleaning up and I found

842
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra has a cold, which no, really, it's amazing

843
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: sitting just over there. I actually put on Instagram, so

844
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: I was like, here it is. I forgot that I

845
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: had it, like the original, you know, issue, and maybe

846
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: that's worth something. I don't even know. But it was

847
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: meant as an ephemeral medium, but there's so much value

848
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: to it. Actually, the work you're doing is like has

849
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: interesting like archival value. I feel like to it.

850
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: I feel yeah, I think that, you know, information is

851
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: just too diffuse. Like what this is all about, the

852
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: nostalgia for this and why we all are like, oh

853
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: print please magazines is we're all nostalgic for monoculture, right,

854
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: Like we all want that moment. If you pick up

855
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: a couple of magazines from nineteen seventy eight, you understand

856
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: a lot about that year because magazines were so hugely influential. Yeah, right,

857
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: you don't have that by reading a couple of pages

858
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 2: of a or you know, a couple of screens full

859
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 2: of a website. Really it's not the same thing, right,

860
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: And I think we all miss that, you know, I mean,

861
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: everything's even worse now than it was, you know, ten

862
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: years ago. I was thinking about. I found a deck

863
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: the other day, found an old BuzzFeed deck that I

864
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 2: had held on, I had gotten my hands on when

865
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: they were really you know, the biggest name in town.

866
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: There are billions and billions there were with.

867
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: Billions, And it was a deck called sixteen Ways to Viralize, right,

868
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: And it was around the time of like the dress,

869
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: and I was thinking about how quaint the dress was

870
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,280
Speaker 2: that we were all sort of like, is it gold?

871
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 2: Is it blue? Like it doesn't feel that way anymore.

872
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's an interesting observation because the dress doesn't

873
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: feel like it was that long ago. God, even saying

874
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: the dress, there's a whole generation of people who probably

875
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: when we say it, they don't even know what we're

876
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: talking about. Right, Like, if you're a person who lives

877
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: on TikTok right now, you probably are not thinking too

878
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: much about what the dress means when we say it.

879
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: But no, I mean, you're talking about something that I

880
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about and listening to

881
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: your podcast because it's so much steeped in the culture

882
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: of a time that it just we could never I

883
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 1: feel like we can never recapture unless we like literally

884
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 1: turn off the Internet. It's hard to and I mentioned

885
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: this before, but it's hard for people, I think to understand.

886
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: I certainly understand it. The power of magazines, like like

887
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: the power of publications, because there weren't that many of them.

888
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: It was hard, like there were not that many time

889
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: magazines because it was really fucking hard to make a

890
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: magazine that every that almost every person or some amount

891
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: high amount of people in like a country would want

892
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: to read it every week, you know. And I think, like,

893
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: in one way it's wonderful because we've distributed like information

894
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: in a way that's like makes it more accessible for

895
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: other people, people who would not normally. I mean this,

896
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: this podcast of yours is about people who did not

897
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: get a shot to make the kind of publication they

898
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: wanted to make, trying to make that publication and getting

899
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: like getting kind of screwed and and defeated in the

900
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: process in many ways. I mean, also having great like successes,

901
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: like you said, like and going on to do amazing stuff.

902
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: But we've leveled that you can now if you want

903
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: to create this weirdest fucking publication that you you know,

904
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: or a new one that doesn't exist, you can go

905
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: do it. So we've removed keepers. But at the same time,

906
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: to your point about monoculture, we can't even imagine that

907
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: cultural moment of everybody reading, like seeing the cover of

908
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 1: Time this week that's right, and going and going, oh

909
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: my god, like this you know, whatever story it is

910
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: becomes the topic of conversations for.

911
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: The magazine or even smaller, like enough people rallying around

912
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 2: something like spy, right, like this is. But the thing

913
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: is what I really attracted me so much to this

914
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,399
Speaker 2: was there was a lack of self consciousness about this

915
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: because there's no Internet, because they don't have to put

916
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,399
Speaker 2: their shit on Twitter. There's a lack of self consciousness, right.

917
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: And there's also they're really working together in this very

918
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 2: pure way of what makes a good story. What's a

919
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: compelling and fun headline that will sell this not for

920
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 2: fucking seo, right, but we'll actually like look good and

921
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: be cool. And what's the art that goes along with

922
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: this story? All those creative collaboration of components that I

923
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 2: think that's what we all want again, that kind of feeling,

924
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 2: that's something, it's something tangible. It feels good to make.

925
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: No, I mean this is to me is like it's

926
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: why I still feel attracted to magazines. I think it's

927
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: because like you can create this singular sort of object, right,

928
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: it's and it's it's real, it's physical, you hold in

929
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: your hands, you like, it lives in your house, like

930
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: it's not an abstract, floating bit of data that exists.

931
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: Like and to your point about like the SEO, and

932
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: I think perhaps, like if you're listening to this and

933
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: you are not in the media world, which is like,

934
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 1: I hope, I fucking hope there's a bunch of people

935
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: that you're not part of that world. But I do

936
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: think it touches on these things, like when you talk

937
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: about stuff like that, if you look at the landscape

938
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: of information, you look at the complaints or the arguments

939
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: against like monolithic media. It's funny because this cuts slices

940
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: so many ways when you people talk about the media

941
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 1: narrative and monolithic media and how you can't trust the

942
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: media or whatever they are describing the thing that we're

943
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: talking about having a desire for. Yeah, and yet at

944
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: the time of that of that thing, that monolithic media

945
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: sort of existence, people, most people, most consumers of it,

946
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: weren't like this is bullshit, I can't trust this. They

947
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: were like, these people are telling me what I need

948
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: to know, like and to make a magazine like the

949
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: one that you're talking about, like Viva to add to

950
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: that conversation was not a small feat because he couldn't

951
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: just appear. I think there's so much that is relevant,

952
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: like to you know, in listening to it, this relevant

953
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: to this moment. I think particularly in just thinking about

954
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: how the stories that we see and hear and read

955
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: get from somebody's some unique person's brain to like into existence.

956
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: And here's an example of like a lot of people striving.

957
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: GUCCIONI to some extent, though he in a very wayward sense,

958
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 1: like you know, it's striving to make something that's legitimately,

959
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, valuable to an audience, and it is a

960
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: cynical and.

961
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: Not cynical, which is like, oh god, how refreshing.

962
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: Right, I definitely what makes me want to return to

963
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 1: a time when like those people are making that's they're

964
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: making the content, and it's not called content. It's like

965
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: just great stories.

966
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: That was That was what ruined us when it switched

967
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: to content. That was when it was over.

968
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 1: That was it. Do you think there's any going back.

969
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: Do you think we can fix it?

970
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 2: I don't know. Look, I mean this podcast that I

971
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: got to write, it's not going to be in the

972
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: same form, but I got to write this podcast. I

973
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 2: got to report it out. I worked with a brilliant

974
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 2: editor who edited it. I worked with a producer who

975
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: knew when to dip in and when to like let

976
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 2: me kind of go wild. So this was the most

977
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: satisfying creative project I have, writing project I've had in

978
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: I can't even remember how long I had that same

979
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 2: journalistic like just real that I had early in my career,

980
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 2: like chasing down stories in New York. So I don't

981
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: think that it's going to look the same way, but

982
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,280
Speaker 2: I think that we could still tell stories.

983
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: I think it's a perfect place to leave it. It's

984
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: sort of it's it kind of makes me feel a

985
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: bit hopeful. I mean, I think that's a great that's

986
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: a great point. Like there are I mean, there are

987
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: avenues that we didn't have that those that those folks

988
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: would have never had. So you know, the fact that

989
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: you get to tell this story and tell it in

990
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 1: such detail is like it does kind of harken back

991
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: to what they were trying to do. Yeah, amazing, Jen,

992
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 1: this has been such an interesting conversation. It's such a

993
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: good listen by the way, like just on top of

994
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: all this stuff we're talking about, all this heavy shit

995
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: about media, it's a fun show to listen to. It's

996
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: like entertaining. You've got tons of great like interviews and

997
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: comments and quotes and some like Bob GUCCIONI texts that

998
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: are read and like, it's a really great listen. So

999
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: beyond the podcast, if people want to find you elsewhere,

1000
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: how can they how can they follow your work?

1001
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: I am Jen Ramalini us all platforms D E N

1002
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 2: N R O, M O, L I N I.

1003
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: That's smart, that's smart. That's to keep it consistent. And

1004
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: also your name. I've done the same thing.

1005
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: It's a very old person. It's a very old person

1006
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: thing to do. But that's that's what I should. Yeah,

1007
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 2: it is. I think the young people are like, I'm

1008
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 2: like tiny lyon or whatever.

1009
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's a good that's a good way to

1010
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: but that way you can escape quickly. Now I can

1011
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: never get away from this ship like exactly. I can

1012
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: never just Joshua Tepolski all over social media forever. So

1013
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: it's not like I can hide. Yeah no, I can't.

1014
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: George Santos, this situation.

1015
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: Nope.

1016
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on and talking about this. And

1017
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: next time you create something a work like this, you

1018
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: got to come back and tell us about it. This

1019
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 1: was great, Well, that was great. I have to say.

1020
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: I I like talking to people who know about magazines

1021
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: and have a love for them, even if it's misguided

1022
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: like my love for magazine. But that was super fascinating

1023
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: and everybody, if you haven't listened to it, haven't started

1024
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: listening to it. Definitely listened to it. I highly recommend it.

1025
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: You will not be disappointed. It's highly entertaining. And that

1026
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: is our show for this week, where Rat We're just

1027
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: gonna wrap up. It's gonna get right into the end

1028
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 1: of this. We'll be back next week with more what future,

1029
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: And as always, I wish you and your family the

1030
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: very best.