Speaker 1: Hey, it's stuck Golie. Welcome and this is All Ball,
Speaker 1: the podcast you love, and we tell stories where we
Speaker 1: love other people to come and tell stories about their
Speaker 1: storied career. We talk a little hoops in the meantime.
Speaker 1: I do want to give you a thought on the
Speaker 1: issues within the Miami Heat. And as you guys know,
Speaker 1: if you listen to this pod, I love the idea
Speaker 1: of culture. I love that they kind of load to
Speaker 1: the basketball, that they make you make contested shots, that
Speaker 1: they played together, that it's about toughness and versatility defensively.
Speaker 1: And I'm also realized that they're not healthy, right, I
Speaker 1: get it, But we also have to give a little
Speaker 1: bit of respect for guys that can just go get buckets.
Speaker 1: Like all the other stuff is hard, playing the NBA
Speaker 1: is hard. There's just there's no role that you have
Speaker 1: that's easy. Hey, I mean, I I all. I remember
Speaker 1: Steve Kerr. I think it was in the tooth husand
Speaker 1: and two NBA Finals. I went to Game six in
Speaker 1: Jersey and and maybe I have I'll tell that story again.
Speaker 1: That's actually how I got my first NBA draft gig
Speaker 1: at ESPN Radio. But I remember going to Game six
Speaker 1: and Steve Kurt didn't play in the first half, and
Speaker 1: yet in the second half. You remember that game he
Speaker 1: came off the bench and maybe maybe his Game five,
Speaker 1: I think it was actually his Game five and hit
Speaker 1: three threes, replaced Tony Parker and kind of one in
Speaker 1: the game one in the series. And I remember walking
Speaker 1: out of the building that night thinking, do people understand
Speaker 1: how hard it is what Steve Kerr just accomplished. If
Speaker 1: people understand that to sit there the whole game and
Speaker 1: then oh yeah, by the way, to start in the
Speaker 1: second half and halfter halftime, he and Steve Smith must
Speaker 1: have gotten the sign they were gonna go play. They
Speaker 1: come sprinting out of the the locker room and get a
Speaker 1: bunch of shots up. But to sit there for like
Speaker 1: an hour and a half, two hours, get the call
Speaker 1: come in, be open, have to make shots. I know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: by the way, guard Jason Kidd at the other end,
Speaker 1: that's an incredibly hard rule. But the hardest rule remains, Hey,
Speaker 1: when the house is on fire or you can lead
Speaker 1: them out, can you go get me a bucket? The
Speaker 1: the amount of energy expended doing that is greater than
Speaker 1: any other energy in the NBA. So I I respect that,
Speaker 1: and I think it's what the Heat are missing, you know, like, look,
Speaker 1: when they won championships, they had Lebron or they had
Speaker 1: Dwyane Wade. When they haven't, They've had really really good
Speaker 1: teams that allow them to consistently be competitive, but they
Speaker 1: don't have a bucket getter. And Jimmy Butler is a
Speaker 1: very very good player. There's a difference very very good
Speaker 1: player and star superstar, And there in lies the difference.
Speaker 1: You know, that's just not he's at his best when
Speaker 1: he's your second or third best offensive player. When he's
Speaker 1: your best offensive player, that's not really what he does.
Speaker 1: He can still score twenty five a night, but he
Speaker 1: can't be counted on the score night. Makes sense, all right,
Speaker 1: more on that to come. Let me get you to
Speaker 1: part two of my conversation with Jadie Collins. You do
Speaker 1: you remember the moment that you felt like I've made
Speaker 1: it right, Like you remember the big game? Where where
Speaker 1: was it? Because oftentimes, like you mentioned, uh, the former
Speaker 1: commissioner of the MAC who became the coordinator in the
Speaker 1: because like that's I'm gonna look, we look at the
Speaker 1: list right before the game, like and then there's always
Speaker 1: a guy like I have no idea who that human
Speaker 1: being is. And then you get to a point where like, oh,
Speaker 1: j D, I know, I mean, all right, we're good.
Speaker 1: Was was it a moment where, uh, you know, a
Speaker 1: big name coach, you know, I knew you by name
Speaker 1: and you had a relationship. Was it a big game?
Speaker 1: Was it a final four? What was the Was there
Speaker 1: a moment where like I have kind of arrived? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't know that just thinking
Speaker 1: that way, I don't know that I have I don't
Speaker 1: know that I can think that I've arrived. I you know,
Speaker 1: even in my job that I'm in now, it's uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think we all we all are
Speaker 1: in learning process. But three things came to mind when
Speaker 1: you asked that question about a moment um. I worked
Speaker 1: the I worked in the Elite eight Nolbuquerque with Tim
Speaker 1: Higgins and Eddie High Tower Louisville, West Virginia UM. Louisville
Speaker 1: is down twenty four points at the half and Louisville
Speaker 1: comes back double overtime, wins by one and goes to
Speaker 1: the Final four. I remember working that game, and not
Speaker 1: that it was perfect, not that that the three of
Speaker 1: us were perfect or anything like that, but it was
Speaker 1: the the atmosphere was such, and I think it might
Speaker 1: have been two thousand and five. The atmosphere was such
Speaker 1: that processing through it handling the game, not having an
Speaker 1: impact on who one who lost that game. UM that
Speaker 1: that was a pretty pretty pretty cool moment. The second
Speaker 1: one is not a moment of arrival, but it's a
Speaker 1: moment moment that you know that you're heading in the
Speaker 1: right direction. I was fortunate enough to work as the
Speaker 1: alternate official in the two thousand final two thousand four
Speaker 1: Final four in San Antonio, and setting there watching it,
Speaker 1: I remember the words in my head, I think I
Speaker 1: can do this. I mean I could, I can work
Speaker 1: the Final four or whatever. Hank Nichols assigned me to
Speaker 1: that game. Dear friend, uh those games. I was there
Speaker 1: all weekend. Four years later, I'm back in San Antonio
Speaker 1: work in U c l A in Memphis, and I
Speaker 1: knew that I could handle that game. I didn't think
Speaker 1: I could, I knew I could. And so the that
Speaker 1: process of the next four years, working literally each coordinator
Speaker 1: of the Power Leagues and the Big East gave me
Speaker 1: games that, I mean, night in and night out. We're
Speaker 1: just hard the backyard brawl between Pittsburgh and West Virginia
Speaker 1: and just I mean Indiana Purdue. Mr mcan state whatever
Speaker 1: it is you you then know that you can handle
Speaker 1: these games because it kind of been there, done that
Speaker 1: there's nothing gonna happen that it's gonna get, um go
Speaker 1: wrong in the game. And I say that to say
Speaker 1: coordinators assigned referees on the game differently than they assigned
Speaker 1: you once and you two's the referee is responsible for
Speaker 1: that game. And I always took it that it was
Speaker 1: my job to make sure nothing went wrong in that game,
Speaker 1: whether it was fand behavior, player behavior, coach behavior, I
Speaker 1: was gonna handle it. And that four year segment between
Speaker 1: O four and oh eight was truly the learning part
Speaker 1: of getting me to that point. If there is ever
Speaker 1: a point of of ah ha as you're describing it, Um,
Speaker 1: it's that journey you're in along the way now going
Speaker 1: back to that, going back to the to the Louisville
Speaker 1: West Virginia game. Um, I had one opportunity in my
Speaker 1: career Louisville West Virginia. I call a foul. I think
Speaker 1: his numbers twenty four. J D. Collins calling a foul
Speaker 1: on J. D. Collins, the player from West Virginia right right,
Speaker 1: and High Tower was with me and High Tower as
Speaker 1: the trail boom, he takes the call at the table
Speaker 1: and I am devastated. I'm like, hey, I get half time,
Speaker 1: like I had the chance to call a foul and
Speaker 1: j D column, are you kidding me? Well, he didn't
Speaker 1: particularly understand what I was trying to communicate there, but
Speaker 1: that being said, um, I think it's more of a journey,
Speaker 1: Doug than it is a moment now getting done with
Speaker 1: the final four. That was an oh eight that I
Speaker 1: worked on the floor. My knee blew out, you know, nine,
Speaker 1: So my career ended at that point on the floor. Um.
Speaker 1: But after the game, I walk out in the arena.
Speaker 1: It was really funny because Tom Crean was was setting
Speaker 1: in the second row right behind me. I walk out,
Speaker 1: turn on my cell phone, sixty messages, you know, just
Speaker 1: getting pounded by the people that wanted to celebrate working
Speaker 1: the game. And Tom says to me, hey, j D.
Speaker 1: And he's coming from the Big East to the Big
Speaker 1: Ten and he and he said, I always thought I
Speaker 1: always thought Big East officials sucked. And he was kidding,
Speaker 1: he was busting my chops. I said, Tom big Tens
Speaker 1: my primary, I'll see you in the fall. It was
Speaker 1: a great bus. Uh, and I have the utmost respect
Speaker 1: for him. But that moment when my when I listened
Speaker 1: to the first message, I'm sitting there, the second game
Speaker 1: is getting ready to start, and I listened to the
Speaker 1: first message, and it hits you. It hits you that
Speaker 1: you just had the opportunity to referee in front of
Speaker 1: seventy five thousand people for the first time. You did well,
Speaker 1: you didn't screw anything up. Uh. That moment is the
Speaker 1: one that that I you know, I shot my phone
Speaker 1: off and left the arena, went back to the hotel
Speaker 1: room and enjoyed life. Was it was it all? Like?
Speaker 1: What was the goal? To just grow? Was the goal
Speaker 1: to get to the Final four? Like you know in
Speaker 1: your as you climb Like it's like I tell people
Speaker 1: all the time, like my goal, like all I want
Speaker 1: to do is I wanted to start four years and
Speaker 1: college and then my goal is really I just want
Speaker 1: to play one day in the NBA. That was I
Speaker 1: just I had a reasonable I thought if things worked
Speaker 1: out right, I could play in the NBA. But if
Speaker 1: I just had one day where I walked into the
Speaker 1: locker room and there's an NBA jersey in my last
Speaker 1: name on the back, Like that's I'm good right, I
Speaker 1: wanted to play in the final four. Um, you know
Speaker 1: things you want to do? Was was was there a goal?
Speaker 1: Was that a goal along the way or was it?
Speaker 1: Or were you a just keep growing, progressing sort of guy?
Speaker 1: What what was your mentality? I think I think achieving
Speaker 1: excellence is what the overall goal is, and the way
Speaker 1: you mark that is what level you achieved. And so
Speaker 1: getting the opportunity to work the final four says you're
Speaker 1: a you are an elite level that you can you
Speaker 1: can attach to what your peers attached to as well. Um, really,
Speaker 1: every every you know, the hundred guys that I use
Speaker 1: in the n C Double A tournament, every one of
Speaker 1: them one to work the final four, and then everyone
Speaker 1: of them wants wants to work the championship game. And
Speaker 1: then everyone of them wants to be the guy tossing
Speaker 1: the ball at the championship game. Because of the reality,
Speaker 1: every other official besides the guy that gets to toss
Speaker 1: the vault at the Final four was second, third, fourth, hundred.
Speaker 1: You know that nobody's ever happy, ever ever ever, and
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, it's the final four is what officials
Speaker 1: want to work, Uh, to acknowledge their status level in
Speaker 1: the business. Uh, how'd you blow your knee? You know?
Speaker 1: I uh runner all my life. I put a lot
Speaker 1: of road miles in with a couple of dogs. Uh.
Speaker 1: Then add to that refereeing stop start stop start, had
Speaker 1: multiple knee surgeries and Uh. On December six, I was
Speaker 1: at Ohio University and a player went to the corner
Speaker 1: and I had to run around him and I felt
Speaker 1: my knee pop. I kept referee being, um, you know,
Speaker 1: drained my knee, get a shot, do whatever. December at
Speaker 1: Michigan State against Texas Southern. Um, it blew up the
Speaker 1: size of a pumpkin, and I knew I was done,
Speaker 1: you know, quite frankly, both knees bone on bone. I
Speaker 1: had used them up. I was forty seven years old.
Speaker 1: Went to went to my surgeon, uh New Year's Eve,
Speaker 1: and said, hey, help me, help me fix this. Let's
Speaker 1: you know, I need to keep refereeing. And he's like, dude,
Speaker 1: you're done, you are done. You have to have your
Speaker 1: knee replaced. Boom bom boom, and away we went. There
Speaker 1: are officially you didn't finish even that year. I did not.
Speaker 1: I shut it down on December. I had my knee
Speaker 1: replaced on March the and UH, you know, you go
Speaker 1: on with life. And there are officials today who have
Speaker 1: knee replacements and physically work themselves back to the point
Speaker 1: where they can referee. Uh. Several several um n C
Speaker 1: Double A level final four guys have have done this.
Speaker 1: Uh in my path have my right knee replaced. I
Speaker 1: know my leftnee needed it. If I went back on
Speaker 1: the floor, it would just it's a matter of one
Speaker 1: season or whatever. And I choose the value of life
Speaker 1: over uh, you know, the ability to play golf, the
Speaker 1: ability to hike with my wife's ability to do things.
Speaker 1: I chose that over going back on the floor and
Speaker 1: fighting that battle just for another basketball game. So then,
Speaker 1: how did you progress into coordinating officials as opposed to
Speaker 1: doing yourself? So I, uh that was March of ten.
Speaker 1: In in March of eleven, um, the Big Ten hired me.
Speaker 1: They just hired Rick by I just as a coordinator
Speaker 1: of officials. Uh. And Rick came from the coaching side. Uh.
Speaker 1: So Jim Delaney hired me to be an assistant there.
Speaker 1: The following year became the MAC and some are the
Speaker 1: MAC in the Summit League coordinator and helped the Big ten.
Speaker 1: So it was a natural progression for UM on the
Speaker 1: floor to administrative and trying to UM teach and train
Speaker 1: guys to do what I had done on the floor.
Speaker 1: Did that for five years and in the n C
Speaker 1: double a position opened and UM, I felt that it
Speaker 1: was the right the right move I thought, I thought
Speaker 1: it was the right challenge and literally thrilled to death
Speaker 1: that I made that change. And I've loved I've loved
Speaker 1: being in the role I'm in for seven years. Fox
Speaker 1: Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.
Speaker 1: Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot
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Speaker 1: s R to listen live. UM so m college Baute.
Speaker 1: We started by talking about decorum, fans and a little
Speaker 1: bit officials. UM. I think the first thing is that
Speaker 1: people believe. And you mentioned back in the Horizon League, Hey,
Speaker 1: I want to hire a guy from Indiana. I don't
Speaker 1: want to think. You know, we're is the idea of biases,
Speaker 1: the biases, and it's hard because you do at some
Speaker 1: point you're doing it for you know, how long you've
Speaker 1: been doing it for. You know, you get to whether
Speaker 1: you have a real relationship with people. Be there's people
Speaker 1: that you like, like you just like them, you know,
Speaker 1: and the people that you don't like what you have
Speaker 1: to call the game fair in your heart of hearts?
Speaker 1: Do you do you believe that you're able to officiate
Speaker 1: without any bias um The answer equivically is yes. When
Speaker 1: when you first started refereeing, you know, people go is
Speaker 1: a makeup call a possibility? You do that once in
Speaker 1: your career where you miss a call and then you
Speaker 1: miss a second one on purpose and you realize you
Speaker 1: never catch up. And so that is I will, I
Speaker 1: will only and I don't want to interrupt your thoughts,
Speaker 1: but I will point out that what I find to
Speaker 1: be really good officiating sometimes it's harder now with replay
Speaker 1: is you might miss a call and then the ball
Speaker 1: goes out of bounds and you you right the wrong
Speaker 1: by giving it to the team that the call was
Speaker 1: missed up. So yes, you know, twenty years ago, twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, you might have been able to pull that
Speaker 1: off occasionally. But the reality and the better play is
Speaker 1: a guy who goes over the top and is bowling
Speaker 1: the guy from behind, and we know that it went
Speaker 1: out on whit, we pass on the foul and we
Speaker 1: give the ball back to Okay, that's that's a better
Speaker 1: example because there's there's two parts to that play. But
Speaker 1: the reality is, um, you can never catch them and
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. Your question to me is can you
Speaker 1: do it without bias? And you just like you as
Speaker 1: a fan or your fans that watch games without question,
Speaker 1: their biased towards the red jersey or the blue jersey
Speaker 1: without question. You have to train yourself not to have bias.
Speaker 1: And I would you know a little footnote here. I
Speaker 1: think you have to do that in life as well.
Speaker 1: I do. I think what people they this is their
Speaker 1: one place? This is there one like. That's honestly the
Speaker 1: hardest thing in my in in my job is you know,
Speaker 1: people like you played at Oklahoma States, so you automatically
Speaker 1: hate X y Z like no, this this school did
Speaker 1: offer you a scholarship, so like it turned out okay
Speaker 1: for me, that was twenty years downy years ago. That
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with anything now, Um, Like, you
Speaker 1: can be trained to have bias, uh, whether that's in
Speaker 1: basketball or in life. You can train yourself to have
Speaker 1: no bias, especially as you're operating at a professional level.
Speaker 1: And you know, let's talk about my job. I choose
Speaker 1: one officials to work the n C Double A tournament
Speaker 1: and advanced them through the tournament. I will promise you
Speaker 1: I don't like all Okay. Some of them are are
Speaker 1: people that their approach to life is completely opposite of mine.
Speaker 1: They have different values. I don't like them, but you
Speaker 1: know what, my job is to put the best officials
Speaker 1: on this wool. Matter whether I like them or not.
Speaker 1: You can train yourself to not have bias. And I
Speaker 1: will tell you I know that's you know, from a
Speaker 1: fan perspective, that's the number one thing. Oh this guy
Speaker 1: when he ref Star Games. You know what, I had
Speaker 1: Gane Katie one year eleven times. They went two and
Speaker 1: nine with me. Jane thought I was a horrible official
Speaker 1: that year. The following year, I had them seven times
Speaker 1: and they went six and one with me. And he
Speaker 1: literally asked the coordinator of officials, did j D go
Speaker 1: through a divorce last year? Whatever? No, your team sucked,
Speaker 1: they weren't very good. Okay, nothing to do with my
Speaker 1: BIASI has nothing to do with my bias toward a
Speaker 1: team a t B R tm C. It's about training yourself,
Speaker 1: not to me. Okay, how about this one, um, what
Speaker 1: is it like you're a young official? Okay, this is
Speaker 1: a this is this is a very basketball thing. I
Speaker 1: think that one of the hardest things for like John
Speaker 1: Shire this year, dude is going to be is completely
Speaker 1: different when John Shire is over there trying to talk
Speaker 1: to you and ask you for a call, as opposed
Speaker 1: to the old man. Right just is. But as an official,
Speaker 1: is it like, you know, the thought is for example,
Speaker 1: coach k I mean, he's USA Basketball, he's you know,
Speaker 1: kind of pedigree. So so so you're you're doing a game,
Speaker 1: you're a young official and you're looking over there and
Speaker 1: one guy has won seven hundred games and it is
Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame and the other guy is
Speaker 1: just coming coming up. Doesn't mean you're gonna screw the
Speaker 1: other guy, but it's a lot of harder you're you
Speaker 1: you know, it's like God himself is coaching that one team.
Speaker 1: What what is that to not to officiate? Well, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna move move the bar just a second
Speaker 1: and then come back to that. My first Division one
Speaker 1: game in an exhibition game, was at Indiana University with
Speaker 1: Coach Night. First Division game. Okay, I'm with Steve Walmer
Speaker 1: and Eric Carmona. During the game, I go to the
Speaker 1: C slot in front of Coach Night. He picks me up.
Speaker 1: He literally stood up, picked me up and moved me
Speaker 1: to the side because he wanted to see the game.
Speaker 1: If that happened twenty years into my career, fifteen years
Speaker 1: into my career, I give him a technical foul and
Speaker 1: move on. I'm not gonna happen. But my partners, because
Speaker 1: it was an exhibition game and easy for them, they
Speaker 1: rotated so that I was in front of Coach Night
Speaker 1: every time down. I had no choice but to be
Speaker 1: in front of Coach Night on my first Division one game.
Speaker 1: All right, now, fast forward, Um, I referee in the
Speaker 1: Big ten from certainly through two thousand while he was
Speaker 1: in a Big Tennis, So I Coach Night a lot.
Speaker 1: And there is a point in everyone's career where you
Speaker 1: have to stand on your own two feet and go
Speaker 1: back to the duke thing. It's walking on the floor
Speaker 1: before a game. You've been in the league for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Assistant coach from Team A comes over, Hey, j D.
Speaker 1: Gives you some man love, blah blah blah blah. A
Speaker 1: lot of guys don't pay attention to that referees. When
Speaker 1: that would happen to me, I would go find an
Speaker 1: assistant coach from the team I didn't know, introduced myself,
Speaker 1: give them some brother love, and away we go. Why
Speaker 1: would I do that? Because I wanted everyone to understand
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna treat everyone exactly the same, no matter
Speaker 1: of pedigree, no matter of whatever. Now, one coach, best example,
Speaker 1: I give you his coach Pettino when he was at Louisville.
Speaker 1: If you had Louisville and filling the blank team and
Speaker 1: you listen to to the fill in the blank team's
Speaker 1: coach for fifteen seconds, one of coach Pettino's major things is,
Speaker 1: no matter what happened in the game, he's taken fifteen
Speaker 1: seconds down there, he's gonna get in your ear for
Speaker 1: fifteen seconds. Okay, time, if it's thirty seconds, he's taken thirty,
Speaker 1: but he's gonna get his equal time. And early in
Speaker 1: my career I understood that process and understood that it
Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. And you say, well, I'll give me
Speaker 1: an example that okay. Uh. December twenty six, two thousand
Speaker 1: six or seven December, nobody's playing, and I get an
Speaker 1: assignment of North Carolina at Rutgers. Okay, only game on
Speaker 1: in America. North Carolina is winning by twenty points. Handburg
Speaker 1: goes Handsborg goes to the whole, gets a little bit
Speaker 1: of a foul, but it's not enough, and I point
Speaker 1: the other way. Blah blah blah. Coach um uh coach
Speaker 1: jumps in the air, lands on the floor. Before he lands,
Speaker 1: I whack him. I hate him with the technical foul
Speaker 1: completely upsets him beyond you know, any normal faith. I
Speaker 1: can't believe that that's the cheapest technical. He's He's all
Speaker 1: over me. I we we do the technical foul at
Speaker 1: the other end. We come back and I make my
Speaker 1: partners switch up, so I'm in front of him. I'm
Speaker 1: in front of Roy, and Roy goes, Jean, that's the
Speaker 1: cheapest technical. I said, Roy, not personal. You can't do
Speaker 1: that on my floor, and he goes, it's not personal.
Speaker 1: Oh no, Roy, it's not personal. Now keep in mind,
Speaker 1: I also knew that every coach in America was watching
Speaker 1: North Carolina at Rutgers that night. Next month of my season,
Speaker 1: I didn't hear Boot Jack Didley from a single coach
Speaker 1: that I had. But he's gonna whack Roy Williams on
Speaker 1: national television. He's certainly gonna give me a technical foul. Okay,
Speaker 1: So for me it I just think again, you train
Speaker 1: yourself not to have biased You train yourself to treat
Speaker 1: people equally. It's the right thing to do, and that's
Speaker 1: that's what we as coordinators have to teach and train. Okay,
Speaker 1: howbout this is a question. What about the energy of
Speaker 1: the of the home Uh? Momentum run right like? It does,
Speaker 1: feel like officials. All of a sudden, the home team
Speaker 1: hits a couple of shots, get a couple of steals.
Speaker 1: Now there's a block charge, and it's I mean, when
Speaker 1: you point the other way, the whole place explodes. What
Speaker 1: how what I thought you were just sharing with me
Speaker 1: that the other team is feeling that pressure and it
Speaker 1: affects their performance and therefore that's why all that stuff happens.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think there's I don't think there's
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think there's any I don't think
Speaker 1: there's any Yes, of course, I don't think there's any
Speaker 1: doubt that that that happens right, like one, the home
Speaker 1: team does become more aggressive and the road team does
Speaker 1: become more past. But again, we're dealing with human beings here,
Speaker 1: and you're, well, you being and you feel that, and
Speaker 1: you're I mean, like, that's why you do it, Right's
Speaker 1: the energy of these bills, that's what separates, right, So
Speaker 1: what is it like and how do you maintain your
Speaker 1: kind of emotional balance in these moments so that you're
Speaker 1: not biased? Right? Right? I think it's I think it's
Speaker 1: really a matter of again training yourself not to be biased,
Speaker 1: training yourself for those big moments, and making sure that
Speaker 1: the block charge play at this point the same as
Speaker 1: a block charge play at that point, and not getting
Speaker 1: caught up in that emotion because the reality is, we're
Speaker 1: wrong fifty of the time every call we make right,
Speaker 1: we're just we're just wrong fifty of the time. Meaning
Speaker 1: we call it play against red, we're wrong. We call
Speaker 1: it the other we call play against blue, We're wrong.
Speaker 1: That's just the way it is. And so you learn, uh,
Speaker 1: through training, through going through the steps of moving up
Speaker 1: and officiating, you learn, uh not to have that kind
Speaker 1: of a negative situation impact you. But you also how
Speaker 1: do you do it. As you mentioned, you're part of
Speaker 1: a team, right, So if you're part of a team,
Speaker 1: there's good. Sometimes there's another official who may get I
Speaker 1: don't want to say influenced, but who may make a call.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's based upon how do you how do
Speaker 1: you handle that when you're sitting there and you're like,
Speaker 1: you know it's not you don't agree with it, but
Speaker 1: you are a teammate at the time. Yeah, and obviously
Speaker 1: we're talking about the highest level. You know, I hate
Speaker 1: to make this comparison, but how cool was watching the
Speaker 1: PGA tournament this past weekend? Is the best of the best?
Speaker 1: Some performed well under pressure, some some did not, And
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen in night our me about Meto? Like man,
Speaker 1: that was that that that eighteenth hole was hard to watch.
Speaker 1: But you know what, he's gonna have another eighteenth toll
Speaker 1: a couple of years from now. He's gonna have another
Speaker 1: eighteen toll. And there's there's some scar, there's some scar
Speaker 1: tissue there that that's gotta be. But that's that's how
Speaker 1: we learn, and that's how we keep that from happening
Speaker 1: in the future. I'm I'm doing a loose comparison. To
Speaker 1: the p g A golfers, to our college basketball officials.
Speaker 1: Even you're asking the question indicates that you think it
Speaker 1: happens more often than not. And that's not the case.
Speaker 1: That's just not the case. We missed. We miss calls, Doug,
Speaker 1: There's no question we miss calls not because we want to,
Speaker 1: because we're in a bad position. We didn't see the
Speaker 1: whole play. You know, if you see a block charge
Speaker 1: play and you you're over here looking and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden there's a block charge play and it happens,
Speaker 1: you're seeing this much of the play. If I'm in
Speaker 1: position and I see a block charge play develop happen
Speaker 1: and finish, it's in slow motion. It goes in slow motion.
Speaker 1: So there's ways to put yourself in a better position
Speaker 1: to make those calls correctly. And it just the thought
Speaker 1: of just even the thinking behind this is not the
Speaker 1: way a referees mind works. It's just not. That's that's
Speaker 1: that's why that's why I asked. Not because the other
Speaker 1: one that you'll get is, well, you know, it's working
Speaker 1: too many games. That's why I missed that one, right,
Speaker 1: He's he's tired working too many games. All these guys
Speaker 1: they all they want. They want to make more money,
Speaker 1: you know, so they do all these they do too
Speaker 1: many games? How much this does mental travel fatigue affect
Speaker 1: your ability or did it affect your ability to perform
Speaker 1: under pressure? On my and I'll use my scenario to
Speaker 1: make a point. Up until two thousands of six, I
Speaker 1: was president CEO of a corporation. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of decisions had to be made on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: flying private to do this, and I thought that I
Speaker 1: was a pretty good official at that point. So of
Speaker 1: business just refereing full time. I'm flying into a city
Speaker 1: a referee four or five games in that city over
Speaker 1: a three or four day period. I'm sleeping well, I'm
Speaker 1: eating well, I'm exercising well. I was a much better
Speaker 1: official in that scenario, and I was working a lot
Speaker 1: of games. Okay. I think the answer to the question
Speaker 1: is it depends on your scenario. Some guys can work
Speaker 1: seventy games a year and it's the perfect number. Some
Speaker 1: guys can work ninety games a year, it's the perfect number.
Speaker 1: What I would ask you is, do you think any
Speaker 1: of those golfers in the PGA Championship if they left
Speaker 1: last weekend's tournament did not play practice rounds, did not
Speaker 1: do anything until Thursday morning, they walked out and they
Speaker 1: started playing for the PGA Championship. Do you think they'd
Speaker 1: be very good? There's no They have a rhythm that
Speaker 1: that you know. The actual question I've been given from
Speaker 1: officials is you know you have a requirement j D.
Speaker 1: That we can't refer when you're in the n C
Speaker 1: Double A tournament. You can't referee for three or four
Speaker 1: days before your tournament game. We they feel officials feel
Speaker 1: they have a repetition in there because that's what that's
Speaker 1: their normal, that's what they do, and so there's a
Speaker 1: balancing point there. And the the bigger fear for the
Speaker 1: n C Double A tournament is that an official referee
Speaker 1: is on Tuesday, he's got a game. On Thursday, he
Speaker 1: gets injured, and now we we have a problem. We
Speaker 1: have to replace somebody. So I think that the number
Speaker 1: of games worked per week is more about what's the
Speaker 1: appropriate repetition for that particular official. Is he does he
Speaker 1: have a full time job, does he not have a
Speaker 1: full time job? Is he refereeing full time? There is
Speaker 1: a cadence to what we do. That's the right number
Speaker 1: for each and every official, and I think it's different
Speaker 1: for each and every official we mentioned black charge. I
Speaker 1: think this is a personal opinion, okay, that with the
Speaker 1: charge circle we're asking officials to do. There's only one
Speaker 1: other type of officiating that does the exact same that
Speaker 1: does a similar thing, and that's baseball umpires. When you
Speaker 1: have a check swing to see if the guy went
Speaker 1: through m so the umpire is behind the catcher, they
Speaker 1: have to determine ball or strike. And then they're trying
Speaker 1: to determine if a guy went when you don't have
Speaker 1: the angle, that's not what you're concentrating on, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: So for block charge, you have to determine if the
Speaker 1: and again I don't know how you're how it's taught, okay,
Speaker 1: but it seems to be that we go kind of
Speaker 1: ground up, right because we're trying to see if one
Speaker 1: they're outside the circle too, if their feet are some
Speaker 1: form of being set. And then you're looking at the
Speaker 1: context that makes it really difficult to see was the
Speaker 1: guy set when he goes into the motion of it,
Speaker 1: right when he when he starts going towards, going towards
Speaker 1: people like when does when are the feats set? Like
Speaker 1: where you get so focused on the feet being inside
Speaker 1: outside that line that everything else becomes secondary or tertiary,
Speaker 1: and it's almost an impossible ask of one official to
Speaker 1: see block or charge. Now, first how is it taught?
Speaker 1: And secondly, how how can you break down those separate
Speaker 1: things that are occurring at a very very similar First
Speaker 1: of all, the NBA rule you you use that you
Speaker 1: didn't use the term, but you you explained it, and
Speaker 1: that's to gather. When they gather, that guy's got to
Speaker 1: be there, and that's refereeing both the offensive player and
Speaker 1: the defensive player. In college, it isn't the gather, it's
Speaker 1: when I it's when I leave the floor. And the
Speaker 1: way we teach officials as we referee the defense exclusively
Speaker 1: and if the defender has reached legal guarding position two
Speaker 1: feet on the floor facing his opponent prior to that
Speaker 1: guy taken off, which is generally within the same four
Speaker 1: ft area I find defense feet down is the upper
Speaker 1: is he not at block charge? If he is there
Speaker 1: before he takes off, I know the defense is legal.
Speaker 1: There's only one call that can be made to actually
Speaker 1: ones a player control foul. The other is a no
Speaker 1: call depending on if there's enough contact. So for us,
Speaker 1: I don't think the block charge play is hard to call.
Speaker 1: The restricted area does make it difficult because you've got
Speaker 1: to find where their feet are at relatively restricted area.
Speaker 1: But if they're two feet facing their opponent and they're legal,
Speaker 1: the bottom line is you can't call blocking foul on
Speaker 1: that player. So it makes it really simple. And I
Speaker 1: would tell you, yeah, players are faster, stronger, quicker, and
Speaker 1: those places happen in an instant. But like I alluded
Speaker 1: to earlier, if you're in the right position and you
Speaker 1: see it coming and you identify the defense, all that
Speaker 1: stuff goes in slow motion. If you're in the wrong
Speaker 1: position and you're trying to find it, yeah, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be really difficult. That's why positioning is so critical to
Speaker 1: what we do UM back in two thousand and twelve.
Speaker 1: You know, I know, I hear the music out there
Speaker 1: that we're calling too many player control files. The reality
Speaker 1: is that may or may not be true, but the
Speaker 1: reality is Art Higland and myself we've spent the last
Speaker 1: two years teaching our referees what legal guarding position is
Speaker 1: and they're doing a tremendous job of adhering to the
Speaker 1: rules that we have and given that fact, our call
Speaker 1: actually rate on block charge plays extremely high. Given our
Speaker 1: current rules, Now certain pundits don't like that, we'll change
Speaker 1: the rules. That's pretty simple. Well, if you if you
Speaker 1: could design the rules which should be better for everybody.
Speaker 1: I don't know, well, I'm for for the greatest percentage
Speaker 1: of people. Like you know, you're never gonna please everybody.
Speaker 1: But if you would say, hey, this is this is
Speaker 1: I've been doing this a long time, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm running up in the sense that doesn't matter. Let
Speaker 1: me just tell you what it should be. This is
Speaker 1: ship This is counterintuitive to our current rules. The we
Speaker 1: we have an art play there which was designed The
Speaker 1: art was designed to keep people out of there, right,
Speaker 1: keep people out of there. And now we say you
Speaker 1: can get in there if you jump vertically and you
Speaker 1: all up legally. That's a great defensive play. We're never
Speaker 1: gonna move that backward. But if we're gonna have an
Speaker 1: arc on the floor to keep people out of there,
Speaker 1: that don't let anybody go in there. Now, the difference
Speaker 1: people apply the NBA look to our game. The reality is,
Speaker 1: for the first of an NBA game, nobody plays defense anyhow,
Speaker 1: and if you beat somebody at the basket, we're gonna
Speaker 1: let you score because it's all about scoring. It's all
Speaker 1: about entertainment. Our game is not that. We have fifty
Speaker 1: of the coaches who are defensively minded and they want
Speaker 1: the ability to jump in and take that charge because
Speaker 1: they taught their players correctly. We have fifty of the
Speaker 1: coaches are going now this is an offensive game, and
Speaker 1: we gotta allow our eyes to blow through. And you
Speaker 1: say when you say don't let anybody in there like,
Speaker 1: you're never like, it's you never allowed to be in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. If you if you want the basket to
Speaker 1: be open, and you put lines on the floor for that,
Speaker 1: then don't let anybody in there. Add to that that
Speaker 1: we had in the last five, seven, ten years, offense
Speaker 1: initiated contact has moved up to an extreme high. So therefore,
Speaker 1: offensive minding coaches are teaching their players drive to the
Speaker 1: basket as hard as you can hit somebody and put
Speaker 1: a shot up. We'll get fouls on that of the
Speaker 1: time or whatever whatever they figure out. That's a problem too,
Speaker 1: and we have no way to adjust that thinking. We
Speaker 1: have no way to adjust. You call player control fouls.
Speaker 1: But by the way, on the current rule we have,
Speaker 1: which is pretty good, people don't like us calling player
Speaker 1: control fouls because it takes points off the board. So
Speaker 1: it's where they don't like is they don't like, Yes,
Speaker 1: it's the when a guy is dribbling laterally, you know,
Speaker 1: or he feels like you just take a dive at
Speaker 1: somebody's arm or whatever, or the I thought what happened,
Speaker 1: especially during the freedom of movement era, was you know
Speaker 1: that that uh it got that. That's when it first
Speaker 1: became the offense initiated contact, and then as it kind
Speaker 1: of got dial back, the defense would close up that
Speaker 1: space to where the offense is left with no choice,
Speaker 1: like physically can't move unless you kind of get a
Speaker 1: guy off you. And now when you get a guy
Speaker 1: off you, they all take a dive and it becomes
Speaker 1: very difficult for an official like is that a real dive?
Speaker 1: But you really get hit? You know, you have the
Speaker 1: guys throwing their head back all the time when they're dribbling,
Speaker 1: all those other kind of tricks to the trade. If
Speaker 1: you will, I'll tell you what I like is I
Speaker 1: would like the elimination of the offensive basket interference. You
Speaker 1: know that one's in. That one's an easy one. And
Speaker 1: I think it also makes officials jobs a lot easier
Speaker 1: as well, where that's not something that you have to
Speaker 1: worry about. Like the cylinder rule, it's hard. How can
Speaker 1: I tell the ball is exactly out of the cylinder,
Speaker 1: So get rid of the rule. That's what happened. FIBA
Speaker 1: has FIBA has a rule that once the ball hits
Speaker 1: the rim, it's free play. Anybody can do anything offensive
Speaker 1: or different defensive like that. I refereed fee of the
Speaker 1: ball for seven years and I loved it because it's
Speaker 1: a it's an athletic play, it's an exciting play, and
Speaker 1: you take uh hard hard judgments. I wasn't in was
Speaker 1: it out? I perfectly like that. Yeah, it has been
Speaker 1: discussed at the rules meeting UM the last couple of years.
Speaker 1: I think it will continue to be discussed and potentially someday, well,
Speaker 1: we may move to that. But I think I think
Speaker 1: it's you know you and I would agree on that
Speaker 1: that that concept. I like the fifty. I also like
Speaker 1: in TIBA the was a fourteen second or fifteen second
Speaker 1: reset on offensive rebounds. Just speeds just it speeds it up.
Speaker 1: You know, and then you bring it out and setting
Speaker 1: them up and get it and go go, go again
Speaker 1: and again again. What what what is that like to
Speaker 1: go from I mean it's kind of similar to your
Speaker 1: job in life to go from officiating to coordinating, because
Speaker 1: as much as you still got to go and observe,
Speaker 1: you're not doing it and there's an energy to doing
Speaker 1: it right? What what what? What's what's that? What's that
Speaker 1: like to especially this first couple of years. You know,
Speaker 1: people ask me all the time, Hey, do you miss afficiating?
Speaker 1: And my answer is always the same. Every day, every
Speaker 1: day I miss it because I think in life we're all,
Speaker 1: you know, God makes us all for a certain thing,
Speaker 1: and I was made to referee then I didn't have
Speaker 1: the ability to referee. And I think referring is not
Speaker 1: that hard. I think we have a set of rules
Speaker 1: you apply, the rules you apply, the art of the game,
Speaker 1: the science of the game. I don't think it's that hard.
Speaker 1: And I watch referees, uh Douce on certain nights, I
Speaker 1: watch referees do things and make it hard. We make
Speaker 1: it hard on ourselves, and that's really frustrating for me
Speaker 1: to watch because I how do we how do how
Speaker 1: do we make it? How do you make it hard themselves? Ah? Um,
Speaker 1: calling calling a play that's a nominal play of foul
Speaker 1: when the next you know, the previous play down the
Speaker 1: floor there was an obvious foul and we didn't put
Speaker 1: a whistle on it. That's inconsistent and we put a
Speaker 1: nominal foul here. We we uh, we don't see the
Speaker 1: game from a consistency perspective, and we make it difficult.
Speaker 1: And that's not a that everyone doesn't do that, but
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you to your question, that's what that's
Speaker 1: what's frustrating for me. As a former referee who wants
Speaker 1: the referee. All you gotta do is be right on
Speaker 1: your calls, be consistent, and be able to communicate with coaches,
Speaker 1: and you you'll have the greatest career in the world.
Speaker 1: It's pretty simple. How why do you think? Uh? Well,
Speaker 1: first of me, I mean mess to our question. What's
Speaker 1: the percentage of Division one officials who are former Division
Speaker 1: one players? Not as um, not as high as you
Speaker 1: you would think. My guess is five to seven. Why
Speaker 1: do you why do you think the number is what
Speaker 1: it is because players yourself included, who had the ability
Speaker 1: to play at a high level Division one. UM, to
Speaker 1: a certain degree, they have talent, they have skill. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're in a great environment with with all kinds of
Speaker 1: perks that come to them. And oh, by the way,
Speaker 1: you got in refereeing. You heard my journey high school ball,
Speaker 1: small college ball, six hour drives, sixty bucks. Uh no,
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in that. If I can get in
Speaker 1: and work two years and then you put me in
Speaker 1: the final four, oh yeah, I'm I'm your guy, that's
Speaker 1: not what develops great referees. And so I think there's
Speaker 1: a dichotomy between the expectation of a player and the
Speaker 1: expectation of the journey you need to go through to
Speaker 1: be truly a successful referee. Now that said, I think
Speaker 1: former players have a great feel for the game, and
Speaker 1: referees need feel. They need the art of the game
Speaker 1: to match the science of the game. UM. I would
Speaker 1: love to see more players get involved in officiating, certainly
Speaker 1: with the shortages that are happening at the lower levels.
Speaker 1: I I agree, I mean, I completely agree, But it's
Speaker 1: the guys have to understand the process of it, and
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hard journey. It now is a
Speaker 1: hard journey, but it's hard for guys that you're like, look,
Speaker 1: we we we didn't play I played JV basketball for
Speaker 1: half of one season, right, you know, like like we
Speaker 1: didn't have to do that. Now, when you go to college,
Speaker 1: you don't start right away. You transfer to somewhere you
Speaker 1: can start, right. So guys that never truly had to
Speaker 1: put in there. They put in the work in their game,
Speaker 1: but they never put in the work in terms of hey,
Speaker 1: here's that works. You start here, but you gotta you gotta,
Speaker 1: I gotta pay for a referee camp, all right. Like
Speaker 1: when I played, somebody would fly me and give me
Speaker 1: huge and gear like no, no, don't wear it that way.
Speaker 1: That don't hurt. It's a long, hard journey to to achieve,
Speaker 1: either being at the highest level and men's college of
Speaker 1: basketball or getting to the NBA officiating. It's a hard,
Speaker 1: hard journey. And the commitment, uh, to see that through
Speaker 1: is is it takes. It takes a lot of commitments. Rare,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it is Uh, it is rare.
Speaker 1: Um the who's the who's the goat, Who's the guy
Speaker 1: that if you ask officials that college officials, that's the
Speaker 1: best guy to ever do you know, I'm always hesitant
Speaker 1: to put one name on that because, um, as you know,
Speaker 1: and as they look at the NBA players now, players
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, players forty years ago, the guys foty
Speaker 1: years ago getting left off, and they in fact may
Speaker 1: have been the best ever, no question, no question. So
Speaker 1: it's like bar Right six mbps, six titles, yet knowing
Speaker 1: it all timely a score never made a three pointer,
Speaker 1: yet everybody completely dismisses him as the greatest. No, he's
Speaker 1: not even the discussion of greatest player of all time.
Speaker 1: So I understand that. But of the you've been You've
Speaker 1: been doing this since let's just go since night nineties,
Speaker 1: so last thirty years. Well, what I would tell you is,
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't. You can't argue with Jimmy Burr
Speaker 1: uh with sixteen final fours. You can't argue with with
Speaker 1: John cal I think we're ten final fours. You can't
Speaker 1: argue with Ed high Tower twelve final fours. Um? Those
Speaker 1: are those are statements about a journey. You can't argue
Speaker 1: with John Higgins, um nine final fours. Um, there there's UH.
Speaker 1: When I was refereing, Here's what I'll tell you in
Speaker 1: my UH from two thousand, probably four to two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: I thought John cal who's the current Big East coordinator officials,
Speaker 1: was the best in America. His approach to the game.
Speaker 1: He was a student of the game as he as
Speaker 1: he neared retirement, he did things like started doing yoga classes,
Speaker 1: pilates to make his physical body continue in the you
Speaker 1: know things like that. People that take the extra the
Speaker 1: extra time, effort, energy at the craft, those are the
Speaker 1: guys that should be UM claimed as quote unquote the
Speaker 1: best um. But in reality, each of those players we
Speaker 1: talked about on the NBA had different skills that you know, well,
Speaker 1: Chamberlain certain mold, cream, Abdul Jabar certain mold, Michael Jordan's
Speaker 1: certain mold. They did a lot of things in a
Speaker 1: great way. There were some things they couldn't do. And
Speaker 1: so when you look at a fish as officials the
Speaker 1: same way. Some of them are really good on their call. Actually,
Speaker 1: some are really good at their uh, their consistency. Some
Speaker 1: are average communicators, or communicate in a harsh way instead
Speaker 1: of a more kind way. Whatever it is. I think
Speaker 1: you have to look at each individual in their own um. Well,
Speaker 1: you said it earlier, Steve Walmer, you would say he's
Speaker 1: best college referee ever had, and yet in the same
Speaker 1: sentence you said it was a horrible play caller because
Speaker 1: he never blew his whistle. Okay, I think Steve Walmer
Speaker 1: is one of the best ever. I think he was
Speaker 1: way ahead of his time, maximize things. He's a dear friend.
Speaker 1: He was a without question, the greatest communicator we ever had.
Speaker 1: But what I put him on the same category with
Speaker 1: Jim Burr and John cow as an example, No, I wouldn't. So,
Speaker 1: I know that's a great answer to your it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's actually it's actually a fair answer. We we
Speaker 1: just usually in TV and radio, we don't. We don't.
Speaker 1: We don't do that. It has to be one has
Speaker 1: to be one or the other. Um, greatest individual performance
Speaker 1: that you were officiating a game, and I I'll give
Speaker 1: you like a story is um Bill self told me,
Speaker 1: you know, they played that Kevin Durant play at fall
Speaker 1: Gallant field House and Danny Manning was assistant, and Danny
Speaker 1: turned to Danny turned to Bill laying the game. They
Speaker 1: would say one. But I think I think Durant had
Speaker 1: like forty three or some and Danny Manning, who's you know,
Speaker 1: in any conversation of the greatest college player ever, had
Speaker 1: the greatest season ever, and then one national championship. Turned
Speaker 1: to Bill and goes, that's the baddest motherfucker that's ever
Speaker 1: played on this floor. That's what That's what he said.
Speaker 1: So there are these individual moments where you see and
Speaker 1: I've always found one of the things I love doing
Speaker 1: is when I talked to the officials for a calling
Speaker 1: a game, It's like, who you've been doing, who's good?
Speaker 1: Who do you like? And because officials know like you,
Speaker 1: you know if jelling of nuts. So, but give me
Speaker 1: a individual performance. You were officiate a game and this
Speaker 1: was one that sticks out at you from a player perspective. Yes,
Speaker 1: So in UH got to think of the year it
Speaker 1: might have been. It might have been two thousand and eight,
Speaker 1: prior to the Olympic team going, Uh to the Olympics.
Speaker 1: I went to Vegas. Uh, I think three of us
Speaker 1: went to Vegas. And because I was FEBA official and
Speaker 1: worked there a week long camp at that time, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, these are the NBA guys, These are the
Speaker 1: best best, right At that time, Kobe was the man
Speaker 1: without questions. Lebron wanted to be the man, and while
Speaker 1: everybody else in the gym was walking up and down
Speaker 1: the floor, maybe jogging up and down the floor, those
Speaker 1: two win at each other for a solid week, every
Speaker 1: play without hesitation, over and over and over. And at
Speaker 1: that time, at that time, Kobe schooled Lebron without question.
Speaker 1: Kobe had gears, Kobe had abilities, and he put them
Speaker 1: all on the line during that week. That didn't matter.
Speaker 1: That may have been the best um true performance that
Speaker 1: I saw in all my years. And you know, I
Speaker 1: got to, you know, work in the Big ten, a
Speaker 1: c C, Big East for a number of years. I
Speaker 1: got to see some really great players with some really
Speaker 1: great performances. Saw a kid in Kansas versus maybe South
Speaker 1: Dakota or North Dakota kid put sixty three up in
Speaker 1: an n C double A tournament game, something crazy like that.
Speaker 1: But Lebron and Lebron and Kobe going at each other
Speaker 1: for a week was and I and I was aware
Speaker 1: enough that I was able to acknowledge it while it
Speaker 1: was going on and just enjoy the heck out of it.
Speaker 1: Your favorite place to officiate a game, well, I would
Speaker 1: have to. I would have to break that down into
Speaker 1: um break that down into levels, meaning you know, at
Speaker 1: the small college level, I worked a lot of games
Speaker 1: here in Indiana and Bethel College used to have a
Speaker 1: gym that held maybe maybe a thousand people. And you
Speaker 1: get that tournament, the Crossroads League. You get the Crossroads League.
Speaker 1: Playing a game at Bethel for the semifinals or finals play,
Speaker 1: people are crawling all over you. There's a stage at
Speaker 1: one end. It was phenomenal. Um. Moving up a level,
Speaker 1: you go to the Division one level Roberts Arena and Evansville,
Speaker 1: Indianas where Evansville you should play, and the seats were
Speaker 1: right down on the floor, I mean the front row,
Speaker 1: the high dollar seats were just I mean you had
Speaker 1: six inches of space. Same things true at Kansas there's
Speaker 1: just no there's no space. And having that environment on
Speaker 1: top of you. UM, I would consider Duke UH and
Speaker 1: their arena to be very similar. That feeling of everyone
Speaker 1: is on top of you is a is a very
Speaker 1: unique and and and really cool place. Then you move
Speaker 1: up to the the you know, the larger arenas, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, I worked a lot of games in the
Speaker 1: Big ten and UM, going to UH Wisconsin and and
Speaker 1: having that fan base who maybe you know, rabid is
Speaker 1: not the right word. But they believe, they believe red Man,
Speaker 1: they bleed red. Ohio State Big Arena feels the same way.
Speaker 1: Michigan State feels the same way. But there's arenas like
Speaker 1: that all over the country. Um, but I gotta tell
Speaker 1: you, you you know, working in San Antonio, the final four,
Speaker 1: seventy three thousand people in the arena, who knows how
Speaker 1: many millions watching on television. Um, those moments are really
Speaker 1: They're really cool. And as a national coordinator, I've been
Speaker 1: able to to experience six tournaments. Uh got canceled, of course, UM,
Speaker 1: but to see that from not a refereing perspective, but
Speaker 1: from the other side of the coin. Uh. Um, every
Speaker 1: final four is it's just it's it's what is it
Speaker 1: like to make that call? Welread you get the call
Speaker 1: when you're when somebody who is a staple of a
Speaker 1: final four isn't in the final four? What is that
Speaker 1: like for you? You know, it's it's. Uh. When when
Speaker 1: I started in two thousand and fifteen, sixteen was my
Speaker 1: first tournament, I would say, on general terms, I felt
Speaker 1: that we had thirteen to fifteen guys at that time
Speaker 1: who um were qualified, skilled and ready to work a
Speaker 1: final four, and so the pool that's a good pool. Uh.
Speaker 1: This past year, UM, I legitimately had twenty three to
Speaker 1: twenty four guys that rated out in such a way
Speaker 1: that they deserved to work the final four. They deserve
Speaker 1: to be on the floor, and only nine of them
Speaker 1: get a referee. So I've had numerous occasions where I
Speaker 1: did not I could not reward a particular individual that
Speaker 1: deserve to be there. And generally speaking, I don't make
Speaker 1: those calls to the guys who don't get a go
Speaker 1: UH that day. I make them over the next month.
Speaker 1: I call them, we talk um just to let him no,
Speaker 1: they didn't do anything wrong. It's it's purely UM there.
Speaker 1: It's a numbers game to a certain degree, and conference
Speaker 1: representation diversity, UM who worked at the last five years,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So it's those those calls get made.
Speaker 1: They're just made after the fact. The calls that I
Speaker 1: enjoy more than anything. It's the best hour of this job.
Speaker 1: You know, you bust your hump for literally my job
Speaker 1: is twelve months a year, three or sixty five days
Speaker 1: a year. Phone is always on. UM. It's that one
Speaker 1: hour after you know, say three o'clock on Monday, after
Speaker 1: the regionals from three to four. I put in ten
Speaker 1: ten phone calls this year eleven because we had two
Speaker 1: stand by official uh. And I get to reward nine
Speaker 1: guys who are going to be on the floor and
Speaker 1: we laugh, we cry, we celebrate. UH. The first timers,
Speaker 1: those that have never never worked on the floor before. UH,
Speaker 1: those are moments that you want. You want to acknowledge
Speaker 1: it and you also want to share in that celebration
Speaker 1: without question, they earn it. And UH, I remember what
Speaker 1: that was like when I got that phone call. He
Speaker 1: used to be from an administrator at the n C
Speaker 1: Double A and say, hey, we're you know you need
Speaker 1: to book a fly goa da DA. And I made
Speaker 1: sure that I personally called all those officials because UH,
Speaker 1: in a hard heart job, you want that moment where
Speaker 1: you can you can celebrate with people if if you
Speaker 1: were to somebody to ask you like, obviously you made it,
Speaker 1: but you had this whole other life as the CEO.
Speaker 1: There's a guy he's loves ball, right, he goes and
Speaker 1: he he officiates it an AU event. Parents are all
Speaker 1: over him, coaches are all over him. Like I love,
Speaker 1: I actually love doing this. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: what would you tell him in terms of the journey
Speaker 1: of you know, the idea of making to a Final four.
Speaker 1: It's really really hard. These nine guys, nine guys on
Speaker 1: planet Earth get to officiate Final Four. But you can
Speaker 1: still make a great life for yourself, enjoy all these
Speaker 1: benefits be around. College basketball makes some good money and
Speaker 1: eventually it could be something that stands on it itself. UM,
Speaker 1: as an official, not have to do anything the rest
Speaker 1: of the year, what would your advice be to somebody
Speaker 1: who is thinking about getting into it. Well, that's a
Speaker 1: that's a mouthful question right there. You just ask. Um.
Speaker 1: My answer is we need you. The game of basketball, football,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, we need need you. Um. We need
Speaker 1: positive people influencing young players. Whether it's an eighth grade
Speaker 1: AU or whether it's no matter what the level is,
Speaker 1: we need you and the sport needs you, and you
Speaker 1: can learn to excel at it as an individual and
Speaker 1: a team. We need you. Uh. That's that's the message.
Speaker 1: And now I'll tell you a quick story. I won't
Speaker 1: put I won't put names or teams on it, but
Speaker 1: I have an event at every Final Four. It's called
Speaker 1: the Next Generation Seminar, and we work with the local host.
Speaker 1: So this year it was in New Orleans. So the
Speaker 1: Louisian High School Athletic Association provided US seventy up and
Speaker 1: coming officials male and female high school guys and gals,
Speaker 1: and we put a seminar on for um or. We
Speaker 1: have on the floor stuff, we have classroom stuff. I
Speaker 1: spoke to him for an hour, brought in UM, I
Speaker 1: brought in UH Monty McCutcheon from the NBA. I brought
Speaker 1: in Gene Territory to talk him, talk to him about communication.
Speaker 1: We gave a really really good training session at these
Speaker 1: official and hopes to to move them in their own journey.
Speaker 1: Those same officials on Friday, Saturday and Sunday referee USA
Speaker 1: Basketball games. They referee the managers games. There's there's games
Speaker 1: going on all around and at one particular managers game
Speaker 1: on Sunday morning, a team's managers were playing, so the
Speaker 1: head coaching staff showed up to UH support their managers
Speaker 1: and proceeded to rip on the officiating crew like it
Speaker 1: was a Division one crew. UH. One of the one
Speaker 1: of the young men UM his name's Joe, took up,
Speaker 1: took a pretty serious beating and at the end of
Speaker 1: the day I had someone present there and they went
Speaker 1: and addressed the coaches and finally got him to settle
Speaker 1: down and and exit. Uh, and the and the officials
Speaker 1: were allowed to continue officiating. I called Joe, first year official,
Speaker 1: he's just trying to learn, just wants to get better,
Speaker 1: wants to he wants to be that guy referee and
Speaker 1: your kids seventh eighth grade, whatever game it is. And
Speaker 1: my message to him was the same. I just gave you, Hey, Joe,
Speaker 1: we need you. Don't let this one situation cause you
Speaker 1: to be disgusted by the game walk away and you're
Speaker 1: never gonna officiate again. We need you, and I would
Speaker 1: anybody that asked me. Um, I think youth sports is
Speaker 1: critical to our success in all of sport. And to
Speaker 1: have officials that are willing to do that and yeah,
Speaker 1: earn a few bucks, try to excel, maybe get to
Speaker 1: to a next level whatever that is. We need officials
Speaker 1: in the game. And um, that's my How do we
Speaker 1: fix the parent behavior? How do I was on a podcast,
Speaker 1: excuse me, I was on a podcast recently and they
Speaker 1: you know, they drove at the officiating side of this.
Speaker 1: What do we need to tell the officials? And the
Speaker 1: answer to that question I said, is reversed. It's not
Speaker 1: the officials that we need to be talking to. It's
Speaker 1: the coaches, it's the players, it's the parents, it's the fans.
Speaker 1: I am a huge supporter of an organization called officially Human,
Speaker 1: and for anybody wants to know about you can go
Speaker 1: to officially human dot com dot com. Brenda Hilton, who's
Speaker 1: a Big Ten employee, runs it and the goal of
Speaker 1: the organization. They have a series that a Little League
Speaker 1: program can adopt. They make their parents watch a two
Speaker 1: hour video do testing blah blah blah blah, to try
Speaker 1: to teach parents and fans how to be parents and
Speaker 1: fans and to support work those children. I think that's
Speaker 1: where our efforts need to be placed. Sounds like a
Speaker 1: pipe dream, but we have to start somewhere. It's it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's less about the officials and more about parents, coaches,
Speaker 1: and fans. I wouldn't I would agree, I would agree
Speaker 1: they followed. Then they all follow the coach. Whatever the coach,
Speaker 1: you're not coaching it, you're allowing it. Right coaching, you're
Speaker 1: allowing it. And it doesn't just doesn't just mean your players,
Speaker 1: it also means your parents as well, all right, so
Speaker 1: November one, you're gonna be up in Traverse City at
Speaker 1: the other spot, and you're gonna turn your phone off, right?
Speaker 1: Is that that what you're telling me? You know, I
Speaker 1: I have loved college basketball for so long that I
Speaker 1: am not going to walk away from it. There's too
Speaker 1: many people involved that that I think I have value
Speaker 1: to add. But as far as having the responsibility of
Speaker 1: particularly this job and or any other job, it's time
Speaker 1: for me to step aside and to let someone else
Speaker 1: in this role that has new idea, is new approach,
Speaker 1: new passion. Uh, take what we've done in seven years
Speaker 1: and move it to another level. But yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be at the cabin a little bit more. And by
Speaker 1: the way, where my cabin is at there's a seventeen
Speaker 1: mile radius where there's no cell towers, So even if
Speaker 1: they try to call while I'm there, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: give me it's Uh, it's pretty quiet. It's pretty quiet.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. It's well, it's a it's an amazing retirement
Speaker 1: that's well earned, and your time. I truly appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It took a lot of time out of your day
Speaker 1: for me, and thank you so much and more and
Speaker 1: more importantly, thanks so much for what you've done for
Speaker 1: the sport, because you and I both have an incredible
Speaker 1: amount of love for the sport and you know every
Speaker 1: bit of energy has been given back is UH is
Speaker 1: incredibly important. So thank you and thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1: You know what, thanks for It's really been fun to
Speaker 1: talk about all the things that we've talked about. We've
Speaker 1: covered a lot of ground. Again, I've I've loved the
Speaker 1: job that I've had, and it's it's just time. But
Speaker 1: more importantly to you, thank you for UM. I look
Speaker 1: at this as an opportunity to educate and inform all
Speaker 1: of your listeners about who we are as officials and
Speaker 1: the professionalism that we as officials bring to the table.
Speaker 1: And UH, I hope it makes a difference in somebody's
Speaker 1: It's interesting because where it changed for me, I think
Speaker 1: it was I think it was jim Burg Boog and
Speaker 1: I were doing a tournament in Puerto Rico and Jimmy
Speaker 1: had he was going to dinner and all the officials
Speaker 1: were going or whatever and like, why don't you guys
Speaker 1: come along? And UM, I can't tell you how many
Speaker 1: of these guys that are your high level guys. There
Speaker 1: were young guys they are coming up, and they were
Speaker 1: just kind of we're all just kind of flies in
Speaker 1: the wall for old Jim Burd stories whatever. But once
Speaker 1: you get to know him, you get like it's like
Speaker 1: you're it's like the website you're given out. They are human.
Speaker 1: You know, this guy's wife spreading, the guys trying to
Speaker 1: have baby, this guy's single guy, right, and you start
Speaker 1: to like, I like these guys. They love ball too, Right,
Speaker 1: that's the best part about it. Well, thank you, I
Speaker 1: appreciate being on Good luck to you all right, all
Speaker 1: my thanks to J. D. Collins. That was amazing. Um.
Speaker 1: Remember you can download and listen, subscribe, rate, write a review,
Speaker 1: listen to part one as well. We got great stuff
Speaker 1: along the way. Um. I do think we're gonna have
Speaker 1: the Warriors and the Celtics in the NBA Finals. I
Speaker 1: think I predicted that maybe to start or did I
Speaker 1: have the nets, but I thought maybe Ben Simmons was
Speaker 1: gonna play. I don't know. Celtics have been They've been
Speaker 1: really impressive. I'm still not willing to put the East
Speaker 1: above the West, but part of that is I also
Speaker 1: consider the West with Kauai and I'm thinking of you know,
Speaker 1: Jamal Murray being with the Nuggets and either played for
Speaker 1: either two when healthy. I still think the West has
Speaker 1: greater teams, and I think the Warriors identified them as
Speaker 1: the best before the playoffs last year. I told you
Speaker 1: check out that podcast. I told you they had something
Speaker 1: special in Jordan Pool. I didn't know it would come
Speaker 1: together this well, but I'm pleased done the less. Anyway,
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. Remember the Doug Gotlip shows
Speaker 1: daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific I Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: Fox sport Trader dot Com on the I Heart Radio app.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, download rate, write a review, support this thing,
Speaker 1: tweeted out to a friend. If you like it, I'm
Speaker 1: Doug Gotli. This is awful.