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Speaker 1: Hey, it's stuck Golie. Welcome and this is All Ball,

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Speaker 1: the podcast you love, and we tell stories where we

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Speaker 1: love other people to come and tell stories about their

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Speaker 1: storied career. We talk a little hoops in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: I do want to give you a thought on the

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Speaker 1: issues within the Miami Heat. And as you guys know,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to this pod, I love the idea

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Speaker 1: of culture. I love that they kind of load to

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Speaker 1: the basketball, that they make you make contested shots, that

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Speaker 1: they played together, that it's about toughness and versatility defensively.

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Speaker 1: And I'm also realized that they're not healthy, right, I

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Speaker 1: get it, But we also have to give a little

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Speaker 1: bit of respect for guys that can just go get buckets.

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Speaker 1: Like all the other stuff is hard, playing the NBA

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Speaker 1: is hard. There's just there's no role that you have

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Speaker 1: that's easy. Hey, I mean, I I all. I remember

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Speaker 1: Steve Kerr. I think it was in the tooth husand

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Speaker 1: and two NBA Finals. I went to Game six in

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Speaker 1: Jersey and and maybe I have I'll tell that story again.

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Speaker 1: That's actually how I got my first NBA draft gig

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Speaker 1: at ESPN Radio. But I remember going to Game six

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Speaker 1: and Steve Kurt didn't play in the first half, and

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Speaker 1: yet in the second half. You remember that game he

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Speaker 1: came off the bench and maybe maybe his Game five,

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Speaker 1: I think it was actually his Game five and hit

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Speaker 1: three threes, replaced Tony Parker and kind of one in

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Speaker 1: the game one in the series. And I remember walking

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Speaker 1: out of the building that night thinking, do people understand

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Speaker 1: how hard it is what Steve Kerr just accomplished. If

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Speaker 1: people understand that to sit there the whole game and

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Speaker 1: then oh yeah, by the way, to start in the

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Speaker 1: second half and halfter halftime, he and Steve Smith must

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Speaker 1: have gotten the sign they were gonna go play. They

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Speaker 1: come sprinting out of the the locker room and get a

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Speaker 1: bunch of shots up. But to sit there for like

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Speaker 1: an hour and a half, two hours, get the call

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Speaker 1: come in, be open, have to make shots. I know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: by the way, guard Jason Kidd at the other end,

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Speaker 1: that's an incredibly hard rule. But the hardest rule remains, Hey,

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Speaker 1: when the house is on fire or you can lead

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Speaker 1: them out, can you go get me a bucket? The

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Speaker 1: the amount of energy expended doing that is greater than

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Speaker 1: any other energy in the NBA. So I I respect that,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's what the Heat are missing, you know, like, look,

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Speaker 1: when they won championships, they had Lebron or they had

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Speaker 1: Dwyane Wade. When they haven't, They've had really really good

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Speaker 1: teams that allow them to consistently be competitive, but they

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Speaker 1: don't have a bucket getter. And Jimmy Butler is a

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Speaker 1: very very good player. There's a difference very very good

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Speaker 1: player and star superstar, And there in lies the difference.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's just not he's at his best when

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Speaker 1: he's your second or third best offensive player. When he's

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Speaker 1: your best offensive player, that's not really what he does.

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Speaker 1: He can still score twenty five a night, but he

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Speaker 1: can't be counted on the score night. Makes sense, all right,

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Speaker 1: more on that to come. Let me get you to

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Speaker 1: part two of my conversation with Jadie Collins. You do

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Speaker 1: you remember the moment that you felt like I've made

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Speaker 1: it right, Like you remember the big game? Where where

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Speaker 1: was it? Because oftentimes, like you mentioned, uh, the former

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Speaker 1: commissioner of the MAC who became the coordinator in the

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Speaker 1: because like that's I'm gonna look, we look at the

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Speaker 1: list right before the game, like and then there's always

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Speaker 1: a guy like I have no idea who that human

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Speaker 1: being is. And then you get to a point where like, oh,

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Speaker 1: j D, I know, I mean, all right, we're good.

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Speaker 1: Was was it a moment where, uh, you know, a

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Speaker 1: big name coach, you know, I knew you by name

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Speaker 1: and you had a relationship. Was it a big game?

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Speaker 1: Was it a final four? What was the Was there

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Speaker 1: a moment where like I have kind of arrived? You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that. I don't know that just thinking

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Speaker 1: that way, I don't know that I have I don't

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Speaker 1: know that I can think that I've arrived. I you know,

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Speaker 1: even in my job that I'm in now, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think we all we all are

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Speaker 1: in learning process. But three things came to mind when

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Speaker 1: you asked that question about a moment um. I worked

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Speaker 1: the I worked in the Elite eight Nolbuquerque with Tim

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Speaker 1: Higgins and Eddie High Tower Louisville, West Virginia UM. Louisville

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Speaker 1: is down twenty four points at the half and Louisville

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Speaker 1: comes back double overtime, wins by one and goes to

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Speaker 1: the Final four. I remember working that game, and not

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Speaker 1: that it was perfect, not that that the three of

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Speaker 1: us were perfect or anything like that, but it was

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Speaker 1: the the atmosphere was such, and I think it might

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Speaker 1: have been two thousand and five. The atmosphere was such

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Speaker 1: that processing through it handling the game, not having an

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Speaker 1: impact on who one who lost that game. UM that

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Speaker 1: that was a pretty pretty pretty cool moment. The second

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Speaker 1: one is not a moment of arrival, but it's a

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Speaker 1: moment moment that you know that you're heading in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. I was fortunate enough to work as the

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Speaker 1: alternate official in the two thousand final two thousand four

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Speaker 1: Final four in San Antonio, and setting there watching it,

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Speaker 1: I remember the words in my head, I think I

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Speaker 1: can do this. I mean I could, I can work

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Speaker 1: the Final four or whatever. Hank Nichols assigned me to

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Speaker 1: that game. Dear friend, uh those games. I was there

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Speaker 1: all weekend. Four years later, I'm back in San Antonio

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Speaker 1: work in U c l A in Memphis, and I

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Speaker 1: knew that I could handle that game. I didn't think

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Speaker 1: I could, I knew I could. And so the that

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Speaker 1: process of the next four years, working literally each coordinator

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Speaker 1: of the Power Leagues and the Big East gave me

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Speaker 1: games that, I mean, night in and night out. We're

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Speaker 1: just hard the backyard brawl between Pittsburgh and West Virginia

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Speaker 1: and just I mean Indiana Purdue. Mr mcan state whatever

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Speaker 1: it is you you then know that you can handle

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Speaker 1: these games because it kind of been there, done that

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Speaker 1: there's nothing gonna happen that it's gonna get, um go

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Speaker 1: wrong in the game. And I say that to say

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Speaker 1: coordinators assigned referees on the game differently than they assigned

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Speaker 1: you once and you two's the referee is responsible for

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Speaker 1: that game. And I always took it that it was

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Speaker 1: my job to make sure nothing went wrong in that game,

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Speaker 1: whether it was fand behavior, player behavior, coach behavior, I

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Speaker 1: was gonna handle it. And that four year segment between

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Speaker 1: O four and oh eight was truly the learning part

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Speaker 1: of getting me to that point. If there is ever

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Speaker 1: a point of of ah ha as you're describing it, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's that journey you're in along the way now going

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Speaker 1: back to that, going back to the to the Louisville

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Speaker 1: West Virginia game. Um, I had one opportunity in my

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Speaker 1: career Louisville West Virginia. I call a foul. I think

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Speaker 1: his numbers twenty four. J D. Collins calling a foul

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Speaker 1: on J. D. Collins, the player from West Virginia right right,

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Speaker 1: and High Tower was with me and High Tower as

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Speaker 1: the trail boom, he takes the call at the table

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Speaker 1: and I am devastated. I'm like, hey, I get half time,

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Speaker 1: like I had the chance to call a foul and

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Speaker 1: j D column, are you kidding me? Well, he didn't

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Speaker 1: particularly understand what I was trying to communicate there, but

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Speaker 1: that being said, um, I think it's more of a journey,

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Speaker 1: Doug than it is a moment now getting done with

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Speaker 1: the final four. That was an oh eight that I

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Speaker 1: worked on the floor. My knee blew out, you know, nine,

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Speaker 1: So my career ended at that point on the floor. Um.

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Speaker 1: But after the game, I walk out in the arena.

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Speaker 1: It was really funny because Tom Crean was was setting

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Speaker 1: in the second row right behind me. I walk out,

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Speaker 1: turn on my cell phone, sixty messages, you know, just

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Speaker 1: getting pounded by the people that wanted to celebrate working

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Speaker 1: the game. And Tom says to me, hey, j D.

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Speaker 1: And he's coming from the Big East to the Big

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Speaker 1: Ten and he and he said, I always thought I

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Speaker 1: always thought Big East officials sucked. And he was kidding,

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Speaker 1: he was busting my chops. I said, Tom big Tens

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Speaker 1: my primary, I'll see you in the fall. It was

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Speaker 1: a great bus. Uh, and I have the utmost respect

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Speaker 1: for him. But that moment when my when I listened

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Speaker 1: to the first message, I'm sitting there, the second game

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Speaker 1: is getting ready to start, and I listened to the

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Speaker 1: first message, and it hits you. It hits you that

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Speaker 1: you just had the opportunity to referee in front of

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Speaker 1: seventy five thousand people for the first time. You did well,

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Speaker 1: you didn't screw anything up. Uh. That moment is the

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Speaker 1: one that that I you know, I shot my phone

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Speaker 1: off and left the arena, went back to the hotel

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Speaker 1: room and enjoyed life. Was it was it all? Like?

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Speaker 1: What was the goal? To just grow? Was the goal

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Speaker 1: to get to the Final four? Like you know in

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Speaker 1: your as you climb Like it's like I tell people

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Speaker 1: all the time, like my goal, like all I want

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Speaker 1: to do is I wanted to start four years and

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Speaker 1: college and then my goal is really I just want

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Speaker 1: to play one day in the NBA. That was I

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Speaker 1: just I had a reasonable I thought if things worked

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Speaker 1: out right, I could play in the NBA. But if

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Speaker 1: I just had one day where I walked into the

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Speaker 1: locker room and there's an NBA jersey in my last

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Speaker 1: name on the back, Like that's I'm good right, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to play in the final four. Um, you know

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Speaker 1: things you want to do? Was was was there a goal?

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Speaker 1: Was that a goal along the way or was it?

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Speaker 1: Or were you a just keep growing, progressing sort of guy?

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Speaker 1: What what was your mentality? I think I think achieving

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Speaker 1: excellence is what the overall goal is, and the way

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Speaker 1: you mark that is what level you achieved. And so

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Speaker 1: getting the opportunity to work the final four says you're

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Speaker 1: a you are an elite level that you can you

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Speaker 1: can attach to what your peers attached to as well. Um, really,

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Speaker 1: every every you know, the hundred guys that I use

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Speaker 1: in the n C Double A tournament, every one of

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Speaker 1: them one to work the final four, and then everyone

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Speaker 1: of them wants wants to work the championship game. And

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Speaker 1: then everyone of them wants to be the guy tossing

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Speaker 1: the ball at the championship game. Because of the reality,

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Speaker 1: every other official besides the guy that gets to toss

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Speaker 1: the vault at the Final four was second, third, fourth, hundred.

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Speaker 1: You know that nobody's ever happy, ever ever ever, and

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Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, it's the final four is what officials

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Speaker 1: want to work, Uh, to acknowledge their status level in

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Speaker 1: the business. Uh, how'd you blow your knee? You know?

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Speaker 1: I uh runner all my life. I put a lot

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Speaker 1: of road miles in with a couple of dogs. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Then add to that refereeing stop start stop start, had

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Speaker 1: multiple knee surgeries and Uh. On December six, I was

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Speaker 1: at Ohio University and a player went to the corner

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Speaker 1: and I had to run around him and I felt

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Speaker 1: my knee pop. I kept referee being, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: drained my knee, get a shot, do whatever. December at

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Speaker 1: Michigan State against Texas Southern. Um, it blew up the

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Speaker 1: size of a pumpkin, and I knew I was done,

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Speaker 1: you know, quite frankly, both knees bone on bone. I

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Speaker 1: had used them up. I was forty seven years old.

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Speaker 1: Went to went to my surgeon, uh New Year's Eve,

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, help me, help me fix this. Let's

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Speaker 1: you know, I need to keep refereeing. And he's like, dude,

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Speaker 1: you're done, you are done. You have to have your

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Speaker 1: knee replaced. Boom bom boom, and away we went. There

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Speaker 1: are officially you didn't finish even that year. I did not.

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Speaker 1: I shut it down on December. I had my knee

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Speaker 1: replaced on March the and UH, you know, you go

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Speaker 1: on with life. And there are officials today who have

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Speaker 1: knee replacements and physically work themselves back to the point

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Speaker 1: Double A level final four guys have have done this.

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Speaker 1: Uh in my path have my right knee replaced. I

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Speaker 1: the floor, it would just it's a matter of one

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Speaker 1: season or whatever. And I choose the value of life

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Speaker 1: ability to hike with my wife's ability to do things.

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Speaker 1: I chose that over going back on the floor and

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Speaker 1: fighting that battle just for another basketball game. So then,

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Speaker 1: how did you progress into coordinating officials as opposed to

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Speaker 1: doing yourself? So I, uh that was March of ten.

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Speaker 1: In in March of eleven, um, the Big Ten hired me.

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Speaker 1: They just hired Rick by I just as a coordinator

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Speaker 1: of officials. Uh. And Rick came from the coaching side. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So Jim Delaney hired me to be an assistant there.

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Speaker 1: The following year became the MAC and some are the

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Speaker 1: MAC in the Summit League coordinator and helped the Big ten.

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Speaker 1: So it was a natural progression for UM on the

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Speaker 1: floor to administrative and trying to UM teach and train

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Speaker 1: Did that for five years and in the n C

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Speaker 1: double a position opened and UM, I felt that it

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Speaker 1: was the right the right move I thought, I thought

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Speaker 1: it was the right challenge and literally thrilled to death

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Speaker 1: that I made that change. And I've loved I've loved

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Speaker 1: being in the role I'm in for seven years. Fox

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Speaker 1: Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.

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Speaker 1: Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot

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Speaker 1: com and within the I Heart Radio app search f

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Speaker 1: s R to listen live. UM so m college Baute.

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Speaker 1: We started by talking about decorum, fans and a little

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Speaker 1: bit officials. UM. I think the first thing is that

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Speaker 1: people believe. And you mentioned back in the Horizon League, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I want to hire a guy from Indiana. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to think. You know, we're is the idea of biases,

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Speaker 1: the biases, and it's hard because you do at some

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Speaker 1: point you're doing it for you know, how long you've

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Speaker 1: been doing it for. You know, you get to whether

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Speaker 1: you have a real relationship with people. Be there's people

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Speaker 1: that you like, like you just like them, you know,

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Speaker 1: and the people that you don't like what you have

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Speaker 1: to call the game fair in your heart of hearts?

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Speaker 1: Do you do you believe that you're able to officiate

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Speaker 1: without any bias um The answer equivically is yes. When

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Speaker 1: when you first started refereeing, you know, people go is

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Speaker 1: a makeup call a possibility? You do that once in

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Speaker 1: your career where you miss a call and then you

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Speaker 1: miss a second one on purpose and you realize you

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Speaker 1: never catch up. And so that is I will, I

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Speaker 1: will only and I don't want to interrupt your thoughts,

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Speaker 1: but I will point out that what I find to

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Speaker 1: be really good officiating sometimes it's harder now with replay

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Speaker 1: is you might miss a call and then the ball

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Speaker 1: goes out of bounds and you you right the wrong

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Speaker 1: by giving it to the team that the call was

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Speaker 1: missed up. So yes, you know, twenty years ago, twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago, you might have been able to pull that

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Speaker 1: off occasionally. But the reality and the better play is

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Speaker 1: a guy who goes over the top and is bowling

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Speaker 1: the guy from behind, and we know that it went

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Speaker 1: out on whit, we pass on the foul and we

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Speaker 1: give the ball back to Okay, that's that's a better

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Speaker 1: example because there's there's two parts to that play. But

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Speaker 1: the reality is, um, you can never catch them and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't exist. Your question to me is can you

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Speaker 1: do it without bias? And you just like you as

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Speaker 1: a fan or your fans that watch games without question,

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Speaker 1: their biased towards the red jersey or the blue jersey

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Speaker 1: without question. You have to train yourself not to have bias.

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Speaker 1: And I would you know a little footnote here. I

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Speaker 1: think you have to do that in life as well.

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Speaker 1: I do. I think what people they this is their

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Speaker 1: one place? This is there one like. That's honestly the

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Speaker 1: hardest thing in my in in my job is you know,

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Speaker 1: people like you played at Oklahoma States, so you automatically

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Speaker 1: hate X y Z like no, this this school did

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Speaker 1: offer you a scholarship, so like it turned out okay

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Speaker 1: for me, that was twenty years downy years ago. That

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with anything now, Um, Like, you

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Speaker 1: can be trained to have bias, uh, whether that's in

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Speaker 1: basketball or in life. You can train yourself to have

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Speaker 1: no bias, especially as you're operating at a professional level.

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Speaker 1: And you know, let's talk about my job. I choose

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Speaker 1: one officials to work the n C Double A tournament

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Speaker 1: and advanced them through the tournament. I will promise you

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Speaker 1: I don't like all Okay. Some of them are are

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Speaker 1: people that their approach to life is completely opposite of mine.

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Speaker 1: They have different values. I don't like them, but you

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Speaker 1: know what, my job is to put the best officials

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Speaker 1: on this wool. Matter whether I like them or not.

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Speaker 1: You can train yourself to not have bias. And I

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Speaker 1: will tell you I know that's you know, from a

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Speaker 1: fan perspective, that's the number one thing. Oh this guy

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Speaker 1: when he ref Star Games. You know what, I had

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Speaker 1: Gane Katie one year eleven times. They went two and

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Speaker 1: nine with me. Jane thought I was a horrible official

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Speaker 1: that year. The following year, I had them seven times

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Speaker 1: and they went six and one with me. And he

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Speaker 1: literally asked the coordinator of officials, did j D go

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Speaker 1: through a divorce last year? Whatever? No, your team sucked,

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Speaker 1: they weren't very good. Okay, nothing to do with my

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Speaker 1: BIASI has nothing to do with my bias toward a

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Speaker 1: team a t B R tm C. It's about training yourself,

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Speaker 1: not to me. Okay, how about this one, um, what

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Speaker 1: is it like you're a young official? Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: a this is this is a very basketball thing. I

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Speaker 1: think that one of the hardest things for like John

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Speaker 1: Shire this year, dude is going to be is completely

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Speaker 1: different when John Shire is over there trying to talk

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Speaker 1: to you and ask you for a call, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to the old man. Right just is. But as an official,

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Speaker 1: is it like, you know, the thought is for example,

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Speaker 1: coach k I mean, he's USA Basketball, he's you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of pedigree. So so so you're you're doing a game,

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Speaker 1: you're a young official and you're looking over there and

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Speaker 1: one guy has won seven hundred games and it is

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Speaker 1: in the Hall of Fame and the other guy is

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Speaker 1: just coming coming up. Doesn't mean you're gonna screw the

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Speaker 1: other guy, but it's a lot of harder you're you

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like God himself is coaching that one team.

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Speaker 1: What what is that to not to officiate? Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna move move the bar just a second

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Speaker 1: and then come back to that. My first Division one

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Speaker 1: game in an exhibition game, was at Indiana University with

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Speaker 1: Coach Night. First Division game. Okay, I'm with Steve Walmer

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Speaker 1: and Eric Carmona. During the game, I go to the

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Speaker 1: C slot in front of Coach Night. He picks me up.

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Speaker 1: He literally stood up, picked me up and moved me

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Speaker 1: to the side because he wanted to see the game.

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Speaker 1: If that happened twenty years into my career, fifteen years

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Speaker 1: into my career, I give him a technical foul and

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Speaker 1: move on. I'm not gonna happen. But my partners, because

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Speaker 1: it was an exhibition game and easy for them, they

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Speaker 1: rotated so that I was in front of Coach Night

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Speaker 1: every time down. I had no choice but to be

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Speaker 1: in front of Coach Night on my first Division one game.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, fast forward, Um, I referee in the

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Speaker 1: Big ten from certainly through two thousand while he was

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Speaker 1: in a Big Tennis, So I Coach Night a lot.

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Speaker 1: And there is a point in everyone's career where you

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Speaker 1: have to stand on your own two feet and go

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Speaker 1: back to the duke thing. It's walking on the floor

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Speaker 1: before a game. You've been in the league for fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: Assistant coach from Team A comes over, Hey, j D.

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Speaker 1: Gives you some man love, blah blah blah blah. A

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Speaker 1: lot of guys don't pay attention to that referees. When

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Speaker 1: that would happen to me, I would go find an

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Speaker 1: assistant coach from the team I didn't know, introduced myself,

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Speaker 1: give them some brother love, and away we go. Why

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Speaker 1: would I do that? Because I wanted everyone to understand

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Speaker 1: that I'm gonna treat everyone exactly the same, no matter

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Speaker 1: of pedigree, no matter of whatever. Now, one coach, best example,

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Speaker 1: I give you his coach Pettino when he was at Louisville.

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Speaker 1: If you had Louisville and filling the blank team and

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Speaker 1: you listen to to the fill in the blank team's

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Speaker 1: coach for fifteen seconds, one of coach Pettino's major things is,

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Speaker 1: no matter what happened in the game, he's taken fifteen

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Speaker 1: seconds down there, he's gonna get in your ear for

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Speaker 1: fifteen seconds. Okay, time, if it's thirty seconds, he's taken thirty,

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Speaker 1: but he's gonna get his equal time. And early in

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Speaker 1: my career I understood that process and understood that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. And you say, well, I'll give me

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Speaker 1: an example that okay. Uh. December twenty six, two thousand

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Speaker 1: six or seven December, nobody's playing, and I get an

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Speaker 1: assignment of North Carolina at Rutgers. Okay, only game on

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Speaker 1: in America. North Carolina is winning by twenty points. Handburg

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Speaker 1: goes Handsborg goes to the whole, gets a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a foul, but it's not enough, and I point

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Speaker 1: the other way. Blah blah blah. Coach um uh coach

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Speaker 1: jumps in the air, lands on the floor. Before he lands,

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Speaker 1: I whack him. I hate him with the technical foul

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Speaker 1: completely upsets him beyond you know, any normal faith. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe that that's the cheapest technical. He's He's all

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Speaker 1: over me. I we we do the technical foul at

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Speaker 1: the other end. We come back and I make my

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Speaker 1: partners switch up, so I'm in front of him. I'm

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Speaker 1: in front of Roy, and Roy goes, Jean, that's the

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Speaker 1: cheapest technical. I said, Roy, not personal. You can't do

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Speaker 1: that on my floor, and he goes, it's not personal.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, Roy, it's not personal. Now keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I also knew that every coach in America was watching

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Speaker 1: North Carolina at Rutgers that night. Next month of my season,

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Speaker 1: I didn't hear Boot Jack Didley from a single coach

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Speaker 1: that I had. But he's gonna whack Roy Williams on

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Speaker 1: national television. He's certainly gonna give me a technical foul. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So for me it I just think again, you train

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Speaker 1: yourself not to have biased You train yourself to treat

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Speaker 1: people equally. It's the right thing to do, and that's

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Speaker 1: that's what we as coordinators have to teach and train. Okay,

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Speaker 1: howbout this is a question. What about the energy of

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Speaker 1: the of the home Uh? Momentum run right like? It does,

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Speaker 1: feel like officials. All of a sudden, the home team

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Speaker 1: hits a couple of shots, get a couple of steals.

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Speaker 1: Now there's a block charge, and it's I mean, when

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Speaker 1: you point the other way, the whole place explodes. What

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Speaker 1: how what I thought you were just sharing with me

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Speaker 1: that the other team is feeling that pressure and it

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Speaker 1: affects their performance and therefore that's why all that stuff happens.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't think there's I don't think there's

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't think there's any I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's any Yes, of course, I don't think there's any

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Speaker 1: doubt that that that happens right, like one, the home

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Speaker 1: team does become more aggressive and the road team does

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Speaker 1: become more past. But again, we're dealing with human beings here,

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Speaker 1: and you're, well, you being and you feel that, and

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Speaker 1: you're I mean, like, that's why you do it, Right's

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Speaker 1: the energy of these bills, that's what separates, right, So

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Speaker 1: what is it like and how do you maintain your

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Speaker 1: kind of emotional balance in these moments so that you're

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Speaker 1: not biased? Right? Right? I think it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: really a matter of again training yourself not to be biased,

429
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: training yourself for those big moments, and making sure that

430
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: the block charge play at this point the same as

431
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: a block charge play at that point, and not getting

432
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: caught up in that emotion because the reality is, we're

433
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: wrong fifty of the time every call we make right,

434
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: we're just we're just wrong fifty of the time. Meaning

435
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: we call it play against red, we're wrong. We call

436
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: it the other we call play against blue, We're wrong.

437
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: That's just the way it is. And so you learn, uh,

438
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: through training, through going through the steps of moving up

439
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: and officiating, you learn, uh not to have that kind

440
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: of a negative situation impact you. But you also how

441
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: do you do it. As you mentioned, you're part of

442
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: a team, right, So if you're part of a team,

443
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: there's good. Sometimes there's another official who may get I

444
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,880
Speaker 1: don't want to say influenced, but who may make a call.

445
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's based upon how do you how do

446
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: you handle that when you're sitting there and you're like,

447
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: you know it's not you don't agree with it, but

448
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: you are a teammate at the time. Yeah, and obviously

449
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: we're talking about the highest level. You know, I hate

450
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: to make this comparison, but how cool was watching the

451
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: PGA tournament this past weekend? Is the best of the best?

452
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: Some performed well under pressure, some some did not, And

453
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen in night our me about Meto? Like man,

454
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: that was that that that eighteenth hole was hard to watch.

455
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: But you know what, he's gonna have another eighteenth toll

456
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: a couple of years from now. He's gonna have another

457
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: eighteen toll. And there's there's some scar, there's some scar

458
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: tissue there that that's gotta be. But that's that's how

459
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: we learn, and that's how we keep that from happening

460
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: in the future. I'm I'm doing a loose comparison. To

461
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: the p g A golfers, to our college basketball officials.

462
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: Even you're asking the question indicates that you think it

463
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: happens more often than not. And that's not the case.

464
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: That's just not the case. We missed. We miss calls, Doug,

465
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: There's no question we miss calls not because we want to,

466
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: because we're in a bad position. We didn't see the

467
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: whole play. You know, if you see a block charge

468
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: play and you you're over here looking and all of

469
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: a sudden there's a block charge play and it happens,

470
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: you're seeing this much of the play. If I'm in

471
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,479
Speaker 1: position and I see a block charge play develop happen

472
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: and finish, it's in slow motion. It goes in slow motion.

473
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: So there's ways to put yourself in a better position

474
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: to make those calls correctly. And it just the thought

475
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: of just even the thinking behind this is not the

476
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: way a referees mind works. It's just not. That's that's

477
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: that's why that's why I asked. Not because the other

478
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: one that you'll get is, well, you know, it's working

479
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: too many games. That's why I missed that one, right,

480
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: He's he's tired working too many games. All these guys

481
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 1: they all they want. They want to make more money,

482
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 1: you know, so they do all these they do too

483
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: many games? How much this does mental travel fatigue affect

484
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: your ability or did it affect your ability to perform

485
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: under pressure? On my and I'll use my scenario to

486
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: make a point. Up until two thousands of six, I

487
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: was president CEO of a corporation. There are a lot

488
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: of decisions had to be made on a daily basis,

489
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: flying private to do this, and I thought that I

490
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: was a pretty good official at that point. So of

491
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: business just refereing full time. I'm flying into a city

492
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: a referee four or five games in that city over

493
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 1: a three or four day period. I'm sleeping well, I'm

494
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: eating well, I'm exercising well. I was a much better

495
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: official in that scenario, and I was working a lot

496
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: of games. Okay. I think the answer to the question

497
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: is it depends on your scenario. Some guys can work

498
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: seventy games a year and it's the perfect number. Some

499
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: guys can work ninety games a year, it's the perfect number.

500
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: What I would ask you is, do you think any

501
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: of those golfers in the PGA Championship if they left

502
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: last weekend's tournament did not play practice rounds, did not

503
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: do anything until Thursday morning, they walked out and they

504
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: started playing for the PGA Championship. Do you think they'd

505
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: be very good? There's no They have a rhythm that

506
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: that you know. The actual question I've been given from

507
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: officials is you know you have a requirement j D.

508
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: That we can't refer when you're in the n C

509
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: Double A tournament. You can't referee for three or four

510
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: days before your tournament game. We they feel officials feel

511
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: they have a repetition in there because that's what that's

512
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: their normal, that's what they do, and so there's a

513
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: balancing point there. And the the bigger fear for the

514
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: n C Double A tournament is that an official referee

515
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: is on Tuesday, he's got a game. On Thursday, he

516
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: gets injured, and now we we have a problem. We

517
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: have to replace somebody. So I think that the number

518
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: of games worked per week is more about what's the

519
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: appropriate repetition for that particular official. Is he does he

520
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: have a full time job, does he not have a

521
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: full time job? Is he refereeing full time? There is

522
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: a cadence to what we do. That's the right number

523
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: for each and every official, and I think it's different

524
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: for each and every official we mentioned black charge. I

525
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: think this is a personal opinion, okay, that with the

526
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: charge circle we're asking officials to do. There's only one

527
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: other type of officiating that does the exact same that

528
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: does a similar thing, and that's baseball umpires. When you

529
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: have a check swing to see if the guy went

530
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: through m so the umpire is behind the catcher, they

531
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: have to determine ball or strike. And then they're trying

532
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: to determine if a guy went when you don't have

533
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: the angle, that's not what you're concentrating on, right, Okay,

534
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: So for block charge, you have to determine if the

535
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 1: and again I don't know how you're how it's taught, okay,

536
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: but it seems to be that we go kind of

537
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: ground up, right because we're trying to see if one

538
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: they're outside the circle too, if their feet are some

539
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: form of being set. And then you're looking at the

540
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: context that makes it really difficult to see was the

541
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: guy set when he goes into the motion of it,

542
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: right when he when he starts going towards, going towards

543
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: people like when does when are the feats set? Like

544
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: where you get so focused on the feet being inside

545
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: outside that line that everything else becomes secondary or tertiary,

546
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: and it's almost an impossible ask of one official to

547
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: see block or charge. Now, first how is it taught?

548
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: And secondly, how how can you break down those separate

549
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 1: things that are occurring at a very very similar First

550
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: of all, the NBA rule you you use that you

551
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: didn't use the term, but you you explained it, and

552
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: that's to gather. When they gather, that guy's got to

553
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: be there, and that's refereeing both the offensive player and

554
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: the defensive player. In college, it isn't the gather, it's

555
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: when I it's when I leave the floor. And the

556
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: way we teach officials as we referee the defense exclusively

557
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: and if the defender has reached legal guarding position two

558
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: feet on the floor facing his opponent prior to that

559
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: guy taken off, which is generally within the same four

560
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: ft area I find defense feet down is the upper

561
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: is he not at block charge? If he is there

562
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: before he takes off, I know the defense is legal.

563
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: There's only one call that can be made to actually

564
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: ones a player control foul. The other is a no

565
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: call depending on if there's enough contact. So for us,

566
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: I don't think the block charge play is hard to call.

567
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: The restricted area does make it difficult because you've got

568
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: to find where their feet are at relatively restricted area.

569
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: But if they're two feet facing their opponent and they're legal,

570
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: the bottom line is you can't call blocking foul on

571
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: that player. So it makes it really simple. And I

572
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: would tell you, yeah, players are faster, stronger, quicker, and

573
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: those places happen in an instant. But like I alluded

574
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: to earlier, if you're in the right position and you

575
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: see it coming and you identify the defense, all that

576
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: stuff goes in slow motion. If you're in the wrong

577
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: position and you're trying to find it, yeah, it's gonna

578
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: be really difficult. That's why positioning is so critical to

579
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: what we do UM back in two thousand and twelve.

580
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: You know, I know, I hear the music out there

581
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 1: that we're calling too many player control files. The reality

582
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: is that may or may not be true, but the

583
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: reality is Art Higland and myself we've spent the last

584
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: two years teaching our referees what legal guarding position is

585
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: and they're doing a tremendous job of adhering to the

586
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: rules that we have and given that fact, our call

587
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: actually rate on block charge plays extremely high. Given our

588
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: current rules, Now certain pundits don't like that, we'll change

589
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: the rules. That's pretty simple. Well, if you if you

590
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: could design the rules which should be better for everybody.

591
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, well, I'm for for the greatest percentage

592
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: of people. Like you know, you're never gonna please everybody.

593
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: But if you would say, hey, this is this is

594
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: I've been doing this a long time, you know, I'm

595
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: I'm running up in the sense that doesn't matter. Let

596
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: me just tell you what it should be. This is

597
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: ship This is counterintuitive to our current rules. The we

598
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: we have an art play there which was designed The

599
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: art was designed to keep people out of there, right,

600
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: keep people out of there. And now we say you

601
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: can get in there if you jump vertically and you

602
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: all up legally. That's a great defensive play. We're never

603
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: gonna move that backward. But if we're gonna have an

604
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: arc on the floor to keep people out of there,

605
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: that don't let anybody go in there. Now, the difference

606
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: people apply the NBA look to our game. The reality is,

607
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: for the first of an NBA game, nobody plays defense anyhow,

608
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: and if you beat somebody at the basket, we're gonna

609
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: let you score because it's all about scoring. It's all

610
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 1: about entertainment. Our game is not that. We have fifty

611
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: of the coaches who are defensively minded and they want

612
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: the ability to jump in and take that charge because

613
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: they taught their players correctly. We have fifty of the

614
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: coaches are going now this is an offensive game, and

615
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: we gotta allow our eyes to blow through. And you

616
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: say when you say don't let anybody in there like,

617
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: you're never like, it's you never allowed to be in there. Yeah,

618
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. If you if you want the basket to

619
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: be open, and you put lines on the floor for that,

620
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: then don't let anybody in there. Add to that that

621
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: we had in the last five, seven, ten years, offense

622
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: initiated contact has moved up to an extreme high. So therefore,

623
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: offensive minding coaches are teaching their players drive to the

624
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 1: basket as hard as you can hit somebody and put

625
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: a shot up. We'll get fouls on that of the

626
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: time or whatever whatever they figure out. That's a problem too,

627
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: and we have no way to adjust that thinking. We

628
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: have no way to adjust. You call player control fouls.

629
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: But by the way, on the current rule we have,

630
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: which is pretty good, people don't like us calling player

631
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: control fouls because it takes points off the board. So

632
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: it's where they don't like is they don't like, Yes,

633
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: it's the when a guy is dribbling laterally, you know,

634
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: or he feels like you just take a dive at

635
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: somebody's arm or whatever, or the I thought what happened,

636
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: especially during the freedom of movement era, was you know

637
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: that that uh it got that. That's when it first

638
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: became the offense initiated contact, and then as it kind

639
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: of got dial back, the defense would close up that

640
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: space to where the offense is left with no choice,

641
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: like physically can't move unless you kind of get a

642
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: guy off you. And now when you get a guy

643
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: off you, they all take a dive and it becomes

644
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: very difficult for an official like is that a real dive?

645
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: But you really get hit? You know, you have the

646
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: guys throwing their head back all the time when they're dribbling,

647
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: all those other kind of tricks to the trade. If

648
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: you will, I'll tell you what I like is I

649
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: would like the elimination of the offensive basket interference. You

650
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: know that one's in. That one's an easy one. And

651
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: I think it also makes officials jobs a lot easier

652
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: as well, where that's not something that you have to

653
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: worry about. Like the cylinder rule, it's hard. How can

654
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: I tell the ball is exactly out of the cylinder,

655
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: So get rid of the rule. That's what happened. FIBA

656
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: has FIBA has a rule that once the ball hits

657
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,280
Speaker 1: the rim, it's free play. Anybody can do anything offensive

658
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: or different defensive like that. I refereed fee of the

659
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: ball for seven years and I loved it because it's

660
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: a it's an athletic play, it's an exciting play, and

661
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: you take uh hard hard judgments. I wasn't in was

662
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: it out? I perfectly like that. Yeah, it has been

663
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: discussed at the rules meeting UM the last couple of years.

664
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: I think it will continue to be discussed and potentially someday, well,

665
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: we may move to that. But I think I think

666
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: it's you know you and I would agree on that

667
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: that that concept. I like the fifty. I also like

668
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: in TIBA the was a fourteen second or fifteen second

669
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: reset on offensive rebounds. Just speeds just it speeds it up.

670
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: You know, and then you bring it out and setting

671
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: them up and get it and go go, go again

672
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: and again again. What what what is that like to

673
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: go from I mean it's kind of similar to your

674
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: job in life to go from officiating to coordinating, because

675
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 1: as much as you still got to go and observe,

676
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: you're not doing it and there's an energy to doing

677
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: it right? What what what? What's what's that? What's that

678
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: like to especially this first couple of years. You know,

679
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: people ask me all the time, Hey, do you miss afficiating?

680
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: And my answer is always the same. Every day, every

681
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: day I miss it because I think in life we're all,

682
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: you know, God makes us all for a certain thing,

683
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: and I was made to referee then I didn't have

684
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: the ability to referee. And I think referring is not

685
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: that hard. I think we have a set of rules

686
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: you apply, the rules you apply, the art of the game,

687
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: the science of the game. I don't think it's that hard.

688
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: And I watch referees, uh Douce on certain nights, I

689
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 1: watch referees do things and make it hard. We make

690
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: it hard on ourselves, and that's really frustrating for me

691
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: to watch because I how do we how do how

692
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: do we make it? How do you make it hard themselves? Ah? Um,

693
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: calling calling a play that's a nominal play of foul

694
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: when the next you know, the previous play down the

695
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: floor there was an obvious foul and we didn't put

696
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: a whistle on it. That's inconsistent and we put a

697
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: nominal foul here. We we uh, we don't see the

698
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: game from a consistency perspective, and we make it difficult.

699
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: And that's not a that everyone doesn't do that, but

700
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you to your question, that's what that's

701
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: what's frustrating for me. As a former referee who wants

702
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: the referee. All you gotta do is be right on

703
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: your calls, be consistent, and be able to communicate with coaches,

704
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: and you you'll have the greatest career in the world.

705
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: It's pretty simple. How why do you think? Uh? Well,

706
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: first of me, I mean mess to our question. What's

707
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: the percentage of Division one officials who are former Division

708
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: one players? Not as um, not as high as you

709
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: you would think. My guess is five to seven. Why

710
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: do you why do you think the number is what

711
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: it is because players yourself included, who had the ability

712
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: to play at a high level Division one. UM, to

713
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: a certain degree, they have talent, they have skill. Uh,

714
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: they're in a great environment with with all kinds of

715
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: perks that come to them. And oh, by the way,

716
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: you got in refereeing. You heard my journey high school ball,

717
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: small college ball, six hour drives, sixty bucks. Uh no,

718
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in that. If I can get in

719
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: and work two years and then you put me in

720
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 1: the final four, oh yeah, I'm I'm your guy, that's

721
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: not what develops great referees. And so I think there's

722
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: a dichotomy between the expectation of a player and the

723
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: expectation of the journey you need to go through to

724
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: be truly a successful referee. Now that said, I think

725
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: former players have a great feel for the game, and

726
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: referees need feel. They need the art of the game

727
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: to match the science of the game. UM. I would

728
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: love to see more players get involved in officiating, certainly

729
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 1: with the shortages that are happening at the lower levels.

730
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: I I agree, I mean, I completely agree, But it's

731
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: the guys have to understand the process of it, and

732
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: it's a it's a hard journey. It now is a

733
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 1: hard journey, but it's hard for guys that you're like, look,

734
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: we we we didn't play I played JV basketball for

735
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: half of one season, right, you know, like like we

736
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: didn't have to do that. Now, when you go to college,

737
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 1: you don't start right away. You transfer to somewhere you

738
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: can start, right. So guys that never truly had to

739
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: put in there. They put in the work in their game,

740
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: but they never put in the work in terms of hey,

741
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: here's that works. You start here, but you gotta you gotta,

742
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: I gotta pay for a referee camp, all right. Like

743
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: when I played, somebody would fly me and give me

744
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: huge and gear like no, no, don't wear it that way.

745
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 1: That don't hurt. It's a long, hard journey to to achieve,

746
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: either being at the highest level and men's college of

747
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: basketball or getting to the NBA officiating. It's a hard,

748
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: hard journey. And the commitment, uh, to see that through

749
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: is is it takes. It takes a lot of commitments. Rare,

750
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's it is Uh, it is rare.

751
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: Um the who's the who's the goat, Who's the guy

752
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: that if you ask officials that college officials, that's the

753
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: best guy to ever do you know, I'm always hesitant

754
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: to put one name on that because, um, as you know,

755
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: and as they look at the NBA players now, players

756
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, players forty years ago, the guys foty

757
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: years ago getting left off, and they in fact may

758
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: have been the best ever, no question, no question. So

759
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: it's like bar Right six mbps, six titles, yet knowing

760
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: it all timely a score never made a three pointer,

761
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: yet everybody completely dismisses him as the greatest. No, he's

762
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: not even the discussion of greatest player of all time.

763
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: So I understand that. But of the you've been You've

764
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: been doing this since let's just go since night nineties,

765
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: so last thirty years. Well, what I would tell you is,

766
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't. You can't argue with Jimmy Burr

767
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: uh with sixteen final fours. You can't argue with with

768
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: John cal I think we're ten final fours. You can't

769
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 1: argue with Ed high Tower twelve final fours. Um? Those

770
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: are those are statements about a journey. You can't argue

771
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: with John Higgins, um nine final fours. Um, there there's UH.

772
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: When I was refereing, Here's what I'll tell you in

773
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: my UH from two thousand, probably four to two thousand nine.

774
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: I thought John cal who's the current Big East coordinator officials,

775
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,479
Speaker 1: was the best in America. His approach to the game.

776
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: He was a student of the game as he as

777
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: he neared retirement, he did things like started doing yoga classes,

778
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: pilates to make his physical body continue in the you

779
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: know things like that. People that take the extra the

780
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 1: extra time, effort, energy at the craft, those are the

781
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: guys that should be UM claimed as quote unquote the

782
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: best um. But in reality, each of those players we

783
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: talked about on the NBA had different skills that you know, well,

784
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: Chamberlain certain mold, cream, Abdul Jabar certain mold, Michael Jordan's

785
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: certain mold. They did a lot of things in a

786
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: great way. There were some things they couldn't do. And

787
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: so when you look at a fish as officials the

788
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: same way. Some of them are really good on their call. Actually,

789
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: some are really good at their uh, their consistency. Some

790
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: are average communicators, or communicate in a harsh way instead

791
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: of a more kind way. Whatever it is. I think

792
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: you have to look at each individual in their own um. Well,

793
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: you said it earlier, Steve Walmer, you would say he's

794
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: best college referee ever had, and yet in the same

795
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: sentence you said it was a horrible play caller because

796
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: he never blew his whistle. Okay, I think Steve Walmer

797
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: is one of the best ever. I think he was

798
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: way ahead of his time, maximize things. He's a dear friend.

799
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: He was a without question, the greatest communicator we ever had.

800
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: But what I put him on the same category with

801
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 1: Jim Burr and John cow as an example, No, I wouldn't. So,

802
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: I know that's a great answer to your it's it's

803
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: it's it's actually it's actually a fair answer. We we

804
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: just usually in TV and radio, we don't. We don't.

805
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 1: We don't do that. It has to be one has

806
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: to be one or the other. Um, greatest individual performance

807
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: that you were officiating a game, and I I'll give

808
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: you like a story is um Bill self told me,

809
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: you know, they played that Kevin Durant play at fall

810
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: Gallant field House and Danny Manning was assistant, and Danny

811
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: turned to Danny turned to Bill laying the game. They

812
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: would say one. But I think I think Durant had

813
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: like forty three or some and Danny Manning, who's you know,

814
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: in any conversation of the greatest college player ever, had

815
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 1: the greatest season ever, and then one national championship. Turned

816
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: to Bill and goes, that's the baddest motherfucker that's ever

817
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: played on this floor. That's what That's what he said.

818
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: So there are these individual moments where you see and

819
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: I've always found one of the things I love doing

820
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 1: is when I talked to the officials for a calling

821
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: a game, It's like, who you've been doing, who's good?

822
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: Who do you like? And because officials know like you,

823
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: you know if jelling of nuts. So, but give me

824
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: a individual performance. You were officiate a game and this

825
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: was one that sticks out at you from a player perspective. Yes,

826
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: So in UH got to think of the year it

827
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: might have been. It might have been two thousand and eight,

828
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: prior to the Olympic team going, Uh to the Olympics.

829
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: I went to Vegas. Uh, I think three of us

830
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: went to Vegas. And because I was FEBA official and

831
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: worked there a week long camp at that time, Uh,

832
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, these are the NBA guys, These are the

833
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: best best, right At that time, Kobe was the man

834
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: without questions. Lebron wanted to be the man, and while

835
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: everybody else in the gym was walking up and down

836
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 1: the floor, maybe jogging up and down the floor, those

837
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 1: two win at each other for a solid week, every

838
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: play without hesitation, over and over and over. And at

839
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: that time, at that time, Kobe schooled Lebron without question.

840
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: Kobe had gears, Kobe had abilities, and he put them

841
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: all on the line during that week. That didn't matter.

842
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 1: That may have been the best um true performance that

843
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: I saw in all my years. And you know, I

844
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 1: got to, you know, work in the Big ten, a

845
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: c C, Big East for a number of years. I

846
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: got to see some really great players with some really

847
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: great performances. Saw a kid in Kansas versus maybe South

848
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: Dakota or North Dakota kid put sixty three up in

849
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: an n C double A tournament game, something crazy like that.

850
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: But Lebron and Lebron and Kobe going at each other

851
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: for a week was and I and I was aware

852
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: enough that I was able to acknowledge it while it

853
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 1: was going on and just enjoy the heck out of it.

854
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: Your favorite place to officiate a game, well, I would

855
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: have to. I would have to break that down into

856
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: um break that down into levels, meaning you know, at

857
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: the small college level, I worked a lot of games

858
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: here in Indiana and Bethel College used to have a

859
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: gym that held maybe maybe a thousand people. And you

860
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: get that tournament, the Crossroads League. You get the Crossroads League.

861
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: Playing a game at Bethel for the semifinals or finals play,

862
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,359
Speaker 1: people are crawling all over you. There's a stage at

863
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: one end. It was phenomenal. Um. Moving up a level,

864
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: you go to the Division one level Roberts Arena and Evansville,

865
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: Indianas where Evansville you should play, and the seats were

866
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: right down on the floor, I mean the front row,

867
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: the high dollar seats were just I mean you had

868
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: six inches of space. Same things true at Kansas there's

869
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: just no there's no space. And having that environment on

870
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: top of you. UM, I would consider Duke UH and

871
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 1: their arena to be very similar. That feeling of everyone

872
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: is on top of you is a is a very

873
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: unique and and and really cool place. Then you move

874
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: up to the the you know, the larger arenas, and um,

875
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: you know, I worked a lot of games in the

876
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: Big ten and UM, going to UH Wisconsin and and

877
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: having that fan base who maybe you know, rabid is

878
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: not the right word. But they believe, they believe red Man,

879
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 1: they bleed red. Ohio State Big Arena feels the same way.

880
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: Michigan State feels the same way. But there's arenas like

881
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: that all over the country. Um, but I gotta tell

882
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: you, you you know, working in San Antonio, the final four,

883
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 1: seventy three thousand people in the arena, who knows how

884
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: many millions watching on television. Um, those moments are really

885
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: They're really cool. And as a national coordinator, I've been

886
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: able to to experience six tournaments. Uh got canceled, of course, UM,

887
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: but to see that from not a refereing perspective, but

888
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: from the other side of the coin. Uh. Um, every

889
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 1: final four is it's just it's it's what is it

890
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: like to make that call? Welread you get the call

891
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: when you're when somebody who is a staple of a

892
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: final four isn't in the final four? What is that

893
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: like for you? You know, it's it's. Uh. When when

894
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: I started in two thousand and fifteen, sixteen was my

895
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: first tournament, I would say, on general terms, I felt

896
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: that we had thirteen to fifteen guys at that time

897
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: who um were qualified, skilled and ready to work a

898
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: final four, and so the pool that's a good pool. Uh.

899
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: This past year, UM, I legitimately had twenty three to

900
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: twenty four guys that rated out in such a way

901
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 1: that they deserved to work the final four. They deserve

902
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: to be on the floor, and only nine of them

903
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: get a referee. So I've had numerous occasions where I

904
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: did not I could not reward a particular individual that

905
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: deserve to be there. And generally speaking, I don't make

906
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: those calls to the guys who don't get a go

907
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: UH that day. I make them over the next month.

908
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: I call them, we talk um just to let him no,

909
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: they didn't do anything wrong. It's it's purely UM there.

910
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: It's a numbers game to a certain degree, and conference

911
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: representation diversity, UM who worked at the last five years,

912
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So it's those those calls get made.

913
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: They're just made after the fact. The calls that I

914
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: enjoy more than anything. It's the best hour of this job.

915
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,439
Speaker 1: You know, you bust your hump for literally my job

916
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 1: is twelve months a year, three or sixty five days

917
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: a year. Phone is always on. UM. It's that one

918
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: hour after you know, say three o'clock on Monday, after

919
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 1: the regionals from three to four. I put in ten

920
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: ten phone calls this year eleven because we had two

921
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 1: stand by official uh. And I get to reward nine

922
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: guys who are going to be on the floor and

923
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: we laugh, we cry, we celebrate. UH. The first timers,

924
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: those that have never never worked on the floor before. UH,

925
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: those are moments that you want. You want to acknowledge

926
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: it and you also want to share in that celebration

927
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: without question, they earn it. And UH, I remember what

928
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: that was like when I got that phone call. He

929
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: used to be from an administrator at the n C

930
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: Double A and say, hey, we're you know you need

931
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: to book a fly goa da DA. And I made

932
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,839
Speaker 1: sure that I personally called all those officials because UH,

933
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: in a hard heart job, you want that moment where

934
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: you can you can celebrate with people if if you

935
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: were to somebody to ask you like, obviously you made it,

936
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: but you had this whole other life as the CEO.

937
00:53:56,560 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: There's a guy he's loves ball, right, he goes and

938
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: he he officiates it an AU event. Parents are all

939
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 1: over him, coaches are all over him. Like I love,

940
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,719
Speaker 1: I actually love doing this. I don't know if I

941
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: what would you tell him in terms of the journey

942
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: of you know, the idea of making to a Final four.

943
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: It's really really hard. These nine guys, nine guys on

944
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: planet Earth get to officiate Final Four. But you can

945
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: still make a great life for yourself, enjoy all these

946
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: benefits be around. College basketball makes some good money and

947
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: eventually it could be something that stands on it itself. UM,

948
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: as an official, not have to do anything the rest

949
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: of the year, what would your advice be to somebody

950
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: who is thinking about getting into it. Well, that's a

951
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: that's a mouthful question right there. You just ask. Um.

952
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: My answer is we need you. The game of basketball, football,

953
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 1: whatever it is, we need need you. Um. We need

954
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 1: positive people influencing young players. Whether it's an eighth grade

955
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: AU or whether it's no matter what the level is,

956
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: we need you and the sport needs you, and you

957
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: can learn to excel at it as an individual and

958
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: a team. We need you. Uh. That's that's the message.

959
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: And now I'll tell you a quick story. I won't

960
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: put I won't put names or teams on it, but

961
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: I have an event at every Final Four. It's called

962
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: the Next Generation Seminar, and we work with the local host.

963
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: So this year it was in New Orleans. So the

964
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: Louisian High School Athletic Association provided US seventy up and

965
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: coming officials male and female high school guys and gals,

966
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: and we put a seminar on for um or. We

967
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: have on the floor stuff, we have classroom stuff. I

968
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: spoke to him for an hour, brought in UM, I

969
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: brought in UH Monty McCutcheon from the NBA. I brought

970
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: in Gene Territory to talk him, talk to him about communication.

971
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: We gave a really really good training session at these

972
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: official and hopes to to move them in their own journey.

973
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: Those same officials on Friday, Saturday and Sunday referee USA

974
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: Basketball games. They referee the managers games. There's there's games

975
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: going on all around and at one particular managers game

976
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: on Sunday morning, a team's managers were playing, so the

977
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: head coaching staff showed up to UH support their managers

978
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: and proceeded to rip on the officiating crew like it

979
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: was a Division one crew. UH. One of the one

980
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: of the young men UM his name's Joe, took up,

981
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: took a pretty serious beating and at the end of

982
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 1: the day I had someone present there and they went

983
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 1: and addressed the coaches and finally got him to settle

984
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: down and and exit. Uh, and the and the officials

985
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: were allowed to continue officiating. I called Joe, first year official,

986
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: he's just trying to learn, just wants to get better,

987
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: wants to he wants to be that guy referee and

988
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: your kids seventh eighth grade, whatever game it is. And

989
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: my message to him was the same. I just gave you, Hey, Joe,

990
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: we need you. Don't let this one situation cause you

991
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: to be disgusted by the game walk away and you're

992
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: never gonna officiate again. We need you, and I would

993
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: anybody that asked me. Um, I think youth sports is

994
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: critical to our success in all of sport. And to

995
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: have officials that are willing to do that and yeah,

996
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: earn a few bucks, try to excel, maybe get to

997
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,919
Speaker 1: to a next level whatever that is. We need officials

998
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: in the game. And um, that's my How do we

999
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: fix the parent behavior? How do I was on a podcast,

1000
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: excuse me, I was on a podcast recently and they

1001
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, they drove at the officiating side of this.

1002
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: What do we need to tell the officials? And the

1003
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: answer to that question I said, is reversed. It's not

1004
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: the officials that we need to be talking to. It's

1005
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: the coaches, it's the players, it's the parents, it's the fans.

1006
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: I am a huge supporter of an organization called officially Human,

1007
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: and for anybody wants to know about you can go

1008
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: to officially human dot com dot com. Brenda Hilton, who's

1009
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 1: a Big Ten employee, runs it and the goal of

1010
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: the organization. They have a series that a Little League

1011
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: program can adopt. They make their parents watch a two

1012
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,840
Speaker 1: hour video do testing blah blah blah blah, to try

1013
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: to teach parents and fans how to be parents and

1014
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,919
Speaker 1: fans and to support work those children. I think that's

1015
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: where our efforts need to be placed. Sounds like a

1016
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: pipe dream, but we have to start somewhere. It's it's uh,

1017
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: it's less about the officials and more about parents, coaches,

1018
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: and fans. I wouldn't I would agree, I would agree

1019
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: they followed. Then they all follow the coach. Whatever the coach,

1020
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: you're not coaching it, you're allowing it. Right coaching, you're

1021
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: allowing it. And it doesn't just doesn't just mean your players,

1022
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: it also means your parents as well, all right, so

1023
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: November one, you're gonna be up in Traverse City at

1024
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: the other spot, and you're gonna turn your phone off, right?

1025
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: Is that that what you're telling me? You know, I

1026
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: I have loved college basketball for so long that I

1027
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: am not going to walk away from it. There's too

1028
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: many people involved that that I think I have value

1029
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: to add. But as far as having the responsibility of

1030
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: particularly this job and or any other job, it's time

1031
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: for me to step aside and to let someone else

1032
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: in this role that has new idea, is new approach,

1033
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 1: new passion. Uh, take what we've done in seven years

1034
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: and move it to another level. But yeah, I'm gonna

1035
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: be at the cabin a little bit more. And by

1036
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: the way, where my cabin is at there's a seventeen

1037
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: mile radius where there's no cell towers, So even if

1038
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: they try to call while I'm there, I'm not gonna

1039
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: give me it's Uh, it's pretty quiet. It's pretty quiet.

1040
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: That's amazing. It's well, it's a it's an amazing retirement

1041
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: that's well earned, and your time. I truly appreciate it.

1042
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: It took a lot of time out of your day

1043
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: for me, and thank you so much and more and

1044
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: more importantly, thanks so much for what you've done for

1045
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: the sport, because you and I both have an incredible

1046
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: amount of love for the sport and you know every

1047
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: bit of energy has been given back is UH is

1048
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: incredibly important. So thank you and thanks for joining me.

1049
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 1: You know what, thanks for It's really been fun to

1050
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: talk about all the things that we've talked about. We've

1051
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: covered a lot of ground. Again, I've I've loved the

1052
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: job that I've had, and it's it's just time. But

1053
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: more importantly to you, thank you for UM. I look

1054
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: at this as an opportunity to educate and inform all

1055
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: of your listeners about who we are as officials and

1056
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: the professionalism that we as officials bring to the table.

1057
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: And UH, I hope it makes a difference in somebody's

1058
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: It's interesting because where it changed for me, I think

1059
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: it was I think it was jim Burg Boog and

1060
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: I were doing a tournament in Puerto Rico and Jimmy

1061
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: had he was going to dinner and all the officials

1062
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 1: were going or whatever and like, why don't you guys

1063
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: come along? And UM, I can't tell you how many

1064
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 1: of these guys that are your high level guys. There

1065
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: were young guys they are coming up, and they were

1066
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: just kind of we're all just kind of flies in

1067
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: the wall for old Jim Burd stories whatever. But once

1068
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 1: you get to know him, you get like it's like

1069
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: you're it's like the website you're given out. They are human.

1070
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: You know, this guy's wife spreading, the guys trying to

1071
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: have baby, this guy's single guy, right, and you start

1072
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: to like, I like these guys. They love ball too, Right,

1073
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: that's the best part about it. Well, thank you, I

1074
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: appreciate being on Good luck to you all right, all

1075
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 1: my thanks to J. D. Collins. That was amazing. Um.

1076
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: Remember you can download and listen, subscribe, rate, write a review,

1077
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 1: listen to part one as well. We got great stuff

1078
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: along the way. Um. I do think we're gonna have

1079
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: the Warriors and the Celtics in the NBA Finals. I

1080
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 1: think I predicted that maybe to start or did I

1081
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: have the nets, but I thought maybe Ben Simmons was

1082
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: gonna play. I don't know. Celtics have been They've been

1083
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: really impressive. I'm still not willing to put the East

1084
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: above the West, but part of that is I also

1085
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 1: consider the West with Kauai and I'm thinking of you know,

1086
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: Jamal Murray being with the Nuggets and either played for

1087
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 1: either two when healthy. I still think the West has

1088
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: greater teams, and I think the Warriors identified them as

1089
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: the best before the playoffs last year. I told you

1090
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 1: check out that podcast. I told you they had something

1091
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: special in Jordan Pool. I didn't know it would come

1092
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: together this well, but I'm pleased done the less. Anyway,

1093
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. Remember the Doug Gotlip shows

1094
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: daily three to six Eastern twelve three Pacific I Heart Radio,

1095
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:19,959
Speaker 1: Fox sport Trader dot Com on the I Heart Radio app.

1096
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: In the meantime, download rate, write a review, support this thing,

1097
01:03:23,640 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: tweeted out to a friend. If you like it, I'm

1098
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: Doug Gotli. This is awful.