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Speaker 1: Alzon Media.

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Speaker 2: This is it could happen here I show about things

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Speaker 2: falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis. I'm joined by Robert Evans

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Speaker 2: to discuss the Prairie Land trial.

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Speaker 3: Yay.

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Speaker 2: This month, the Trump administration got their first conviction in

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Speaker 2: an Antifa terrorism case. On Friday, March thirteenth, eight people

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Speaker 2: were convicted by a federal jury on charges of riot,

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Speaker 2: conspiracy to use and carry an explosive, and providing material

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Speaker 2: support to terrorists. One of the defendants was convicted of

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Speaker 2: attempted murder of a police officer, and another person was

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Speaker 2: convicted on two counts of concealing documents, bringing the total

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Speaker 2: number of federal defendants to nine. Originally, this federal case

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Speaker 2: had way more defendants, but last year seven of them

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Speaker 2: pleaded guilty to providing material support terrorists, four of whom

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Speaker 2: were later called to testify for the prosecution during the trial.

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Speaker 3: Have they gotten sentenced yet the folks who pled.

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Speaker 2: Out, No, They are going to be sentenced later this summer,

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Speaker 2: along with all of the defendants that were convicted. Gotcha,

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Speaker 2: though their sentence will be a maximum of fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: which is shorter than the defendants who were convicted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The prairieland Defendants Support Committee did ask me to read

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Speaker 2: their names. The defendants are Ains Soto, Liz Soto, Savannah Batton,

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Speaker 2: Meg and Morris, Autumn Hill, Mari Rueda, Benjamin Song or

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Speaker 2: B Song, Zachary Evitz, and des Estrata. The prosecution tried

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Speaker 2: to argue that this was a coordinated attack on an

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Speaker 2: ice facility in Prairie Land, Texas, while the defense argued

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Speaker 2: this was a noise demonstration protest outside of this detention

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Speaker 2: facility last summer. On the night of July fourth, after

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Speaker 2: protesters through fireworks and vandalized property, DJs personnel called a

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Speaker 2: local police for assistance. One officer arrived, drew his handgun

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Speaker 2: and yelled stop at a person in all black clothes

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Speaker 2: who was running away. One of the defendants, b Song,

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Speaker 2: then yelled get to the rifles before firing toward the

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Speaker 2: officer with an Air fifteen, hitting him in the neck.

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Speaker 2: Song fired eleven times. The officer returned fire three times.

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Speaker 2: Song then fled the scene. Most of the defendants were

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Speaker 2: arrested in the days after the attacks, some that night

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Speaker 2: near the facility, though Song camped out hiding in the

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Speaker 2: woods overnight and evaded capture for eleven days with the

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Speaker 2: help of others. Many of those who assisted Song ab

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Speaker 2: aide capture after the shooting pled guilty to providing material

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Speaker 2: support to terrorists. On the first day of this trial,

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Speaker 2: the judge declared a mistrial because one of the defense

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Speaker 2: attorneys wore a shirt featuring civil rights leaders. A week

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Speaker 2: into the trial, US District Court Judge Mark Pittman ruled

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Speaker 2: that defense attorneys could not argue that the defendants, including

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Speaker 2: the accused shooter, were acting in self defense or the

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Speaker 2: defense of others against unlawful force just because the officer

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Speaker 2: had already drawn his handgun before Song fired. The prosecutors

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Speaker 2: compared this to Waco, and Judge Pittman ruled that the

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Speaker 2: officer drawing and pointing his handgun at a fleeing suspect

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Speaker 2: does not qualify as quote excessive as a matter of

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Speaker 2: law because the officer did not actually use deadly force

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Speaker 2: or shoot first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. Like if this were a civilian

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Speaker 3: on civilian situation, the fact that he had drawn his gun,

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Speaker 3: especially in Texas, would have been enough to at least

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Speaker 3: argue self defense. But absolutely police officers have the right

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Speaker 3: to pull guns on whoever they want, whenever they want

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Speaker 3: pretty much, so yeah, yep cool.

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Speaker 2: In court, the government argued that, based on the situation

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Speaker 2: at the protest, that it was reasonable for the officer

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Speaker 2: to decide to draw his handgun because there was crimes

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Speaker 2: being committed to property damage the fireworks, even if he

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Speaker 2: did not witness fireworks as he pulled up to the scene.

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Speaker 2: Now headlines have framed this story as protesters being convicted

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Speaker 2: of terrorism for wearing black clothes or possessing radical political

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Speaker 2: writing also known as zines. There is like a kernel

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Speaker 2: of truth to these statements, but they're designed to serve

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Speaker 2: primarily as clickbait rather than useful information. So let's take

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Speaker 2: a closer look at these claims. Sure, but let's start

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Speaker 2: by getting into the action planning. This action was originally

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Speaker 2: planned on the encrypted messaging app Signal, primarily in a

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Speaker 2: group chat called Fourth of July Party Okay. The plan

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Speaker 2: was also discussed an in person meeting the day before

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Speaker 2: the action, referred to during the trial as a gear

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Speaker 2: check preticipense in the planning chat agreed to where black

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Speaker 2: block and bring armor and rifles. Song advertised the action

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Speaker 2: in a larger group chat of dozens of quote unquote

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Speaker 2: trusted individuals. The event was characterized in this chat as

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Speaker 2: a low risk noise demonstration involving fireworks. A flyer was

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Speaker 2: sent to this larger chat, reading share with trusted folks only,

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Speaker 2: do not post mask up be loud quote. According to

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Speaker 2: cooperating witness Susan Kent, in the fourth of July Party

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Speaker 2: Signal chat, when asked about bringing guns, Song stated, I'm

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Speaker 2: not going back to prison. I'm not going to jail.

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Speaker 2: I'm bringing guns unquote.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's a terrible thing to have in writing. Boy,

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Speaker 3: Okay great.

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Speaker 2: This sentiment was also expressed at the gear Check meeting

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Speaker 2: on July third, where the fundan's discuss bringing guns and

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Speaker 2: Song repeatedly stated that they would be bringing guns because

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Speaker 2: he would not be quote unquote going to jail. They

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Speaker 2: talked about guns as a deterrent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They talked about how in previous instances the presence of

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Speaker 2: guns deterred police from engaging with protesters. And this is

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Speaker 2: how the presence of guns at the protest was largely

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Speaker 2: framed in these meetings and chats. It does not look

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Speaker 2: good in writing in a court case, though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is what the ELM Fork John Brown

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Speaker 3: Gun Club had done like sweep defenses and stuff where

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Speaker 3: they'd shown up armed.

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Speaker 2: That incident was brought up. Yeah, that was specifically referenced.

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Speaker 3: It had in fact worked that way more or less.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's a number of things to drill into here,

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Speaker 3: but one of the issues is just while that's a

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Speaker 3: thing people have used firearms for and have done so

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Speaker 3: in a way that worked in the past obviously, which

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Speaker 3: is what they were referencing, the problem is that you

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Speaker 3: can't ever lose sight of the fact that, like, a

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Speaker 3: gun is a gun, and if you're bringing a gun

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Speaker 3: into a situation.

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Speaker 2: There's potential for that gun to be used.

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Speaker 3: There's a potential for that gun to be used. And

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Speaker 3: if you're bringing that gun into a situation around a

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Speaker 3: police station, the odds that you will use that gun

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Speaker 3: in a way that is not going to cause a

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Speaker 3: life ruining legal nightmare for you and everyone else, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: are are a lot lower. That's a real issue. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Also at this gear Check on the third song proposed

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Speaker 2: to free detainees using quote unquote suppressive fire.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: This idea was shut down by other attendees. According to

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Speaker 2: Susan Kent, who testified after entering a guilty plea. Kent

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Speaker 2: testified that after looking over photos of the facility, Song said, quote,

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Speaker 2: this is as easy as it's going to get. We

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Speaker 2: can take the place and free the people inside. Oh

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Speaker 2: quote using quote unquote suppressive fire. This idea was meant

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Speaker 2: with quote unquote general disagreement, according to Kent, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 2: also saying that it was not curiously planned for or

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Speaker 2: discussed the support committee rights that. Kent also testified that

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Speaker 2: the group quote discussed stealing U hauls to move free detainees,

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Speaker 2: but this did not have popular support. Defendant Autumn Hill

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Speaker 2: asked do we bring our guns? Song replied yes, I'm

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Speaker 2: not getting arrested.

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Speaker 3: Unquote yeah, just a lot of really horrible things to

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Speaker 3: have read out in a courtroom. Just yep, cool okay.

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Speaker 2: On signal, Song shared a YouTube short about suppressive fire.

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Speaker 2: Another defendant, Rueda, wrote that she didn't want to quote

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Speaker 2: unquote fed post Yeah. Someone else wrote that rifles that

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Speaker 2: the action may increase risk. Defendant Evitts sent a timeline

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Speaker 2: for the actions that day, writing things heat up after sunset.

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Speaker 2: Roeda wrote quote if people inside get rowdy, people in

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Speaker 2: this chat would be charged for conspiracy. Question Mark, and

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Speaker 2: then after the fourth of July shooting, someone messaged, quote,

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Speaker 2: please delete signal chats. Chats still on phone even if

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Speaker 2: removed from groups unquote Yeah. According to Support committee notes,

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Speaker 2: some signal messages were recovered from phones using Apple's internal

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Speaker 2: notification system, though even though signal had been removed YEA,

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Speaker 2: incoming messages were preserved in the internal memory on the phone.

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Speaker 2: Outgoing messages were not preserved because there's no notification system

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Speaker 2: for outgoing messages. You can set your settings on signal

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Speaker 2: to not display the message in notifications, and it seems

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Speaker 2: like that was not the case for these messages that

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Speaker 2: were taken from defendants phones.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is a known I mean, the just

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Speaker 3: the fact that having notifications on with signal as a

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Speaker 3: privacy issue has been known for a while.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, two defendants, Liz Sojo and Savannah Batton, were

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Speaker 2: neither in planning chats nor attended the gear check. But

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Speaker 2: all the defendants who attended the protest did carpool together

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Speaker 2: in two vehicles and brought a total of eleven firearms,

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Speaker 2: body armor, individual first aid kits, and all these were

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Speaker 2: presented as government exhibits. I'm going to quote the Department

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Speaker 2: of Justice right up about this case. Quote. Evidence at

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Speaker 2: trial revealed most of the ANTIFA cell involved in the

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Speaker 2: Prairie Line attack looked to Song as a leader. Song

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Speaker 2: acquired firearms that were distributed to co defendants and recruited

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Speaker 2: members that gun ranges and combat sessions they conducted unquote yep.

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Speaker 3: Just as a general rule, like because the potential consequences

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Speaker 3: of having firearms in a protest are so high. If

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Speaker 3: you are showing up at a protest or organizing one

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Speaker 3: and people are talking about bringing them, it behooves you

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Speaker 3: to pay close attention to how they talk about them.

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Speaker 3: And if someone is talking about, for example, suppressed fire,

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Speaker 3: that's not something that is really relevant to a defensive

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Speaker 3: shooting in a legal situation. That's like a combat thing.

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Speaker 3: Like very rarely do self defense shootings involve suppressing fire.

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Speaker 3: I I just you have to be very very careful. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And this is like a judgment thing, Like if you

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Speaker 3: hear people talking about guns who are going to be

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Speaker 3: bringing firearms to a protest or another event, and they

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Speaker 3: are talking in a way that sounds as if they

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Speaker 3: are like planning or eager to shoot it out with

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Speaker 3: the police or right wing count with anyone. That's a

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Speaker 3: thing to be very wary of. That's a real warning sign. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a real red flag.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a real red flag. The defense argued that

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Speaker 2: when Songs shot at the officer, Song was using suppressive fire,

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Speaker 2: claiming that Song aimed for the ground and the officer

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Speaker 2: was perhaps struck by a ricochet. We don't know if

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Speaker 2: that is true now, And there really is no legal

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Speaker 2: precedent no arguing suppressive fire in this way.

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Speaker 3: In a self defense shooting.

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Speaker 2: No, if you're shooting the direction of someone, yeah, they

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Speaker 2: absolutely can start shooting back, even if that absolute fire

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Speaker 2: is intended as being quote unquote suppressive. Right, Like, there's

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Speaker 2: there's really no legal precedent for arguing in this way.

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Speaker 3: And from a legal standpoint, if you were saying I

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Speaker 3: had to shoot at someone in immediate self defense, and

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Speaker 3: then you said, but I wasn't actually aiming at them.

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Speaker 3: I was just trying to suppress them that immediately. Like,

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think they were ever going to

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Speaker 3: be able to argue self defense because this was a cop.

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Speaker 3: But if this had not been, if this had been like,

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Speaker 3: you know, a right wing counter protester or something, the

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Speaker 3: fact that you're saying that you were like shooting to

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Speaker 3: try not to hit them is something that can get

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Speaker 3: you in trouble. That's an extremely dangerous thing from a

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Speaker 3: legal standpoint to talk about.

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Speaker 2: Especially if you're the one like initiating the use of

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Speaker 2: deadly force.

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Speaker 3: Yes, if you have Now if they if a group

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Speaker 3: of people start shooting at you and you are firing

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Speaker 3: and you're just trying to keep it whatever that you're

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Speaker 3: in a say, because they've started shooting at you, but

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Speaker 3: like this person started shooting, Like just from a legal standpoint,

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Speaker 3: this is a nightmare for the defense. Yeah, from the jump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the defendants attended a daytime protest outside

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Speaker 2: of this facility earlier on July fourth, and after which

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Speaker 2: they then reported back to fellow defendants details regarding the

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Speaker 2: facility security prior to this nighttime action. I think it's

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Speaker 2: time for a quick break and then we'll return to

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Speaker 2: discuss the Antifa terrorism cell aspect of this case.

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Speaker 3: Great, well, I hate all of this so far, Garrison,

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Speaker 3: here's some ads.

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Speaker 2: I guess we're back, So let's talk about quote unquote Antifa.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about quote end quote Antifa.

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Speaker 2: The government argued that the defendants remembers of a quote

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Speaker 2: unquote North Texas Antifa cell. The indictment describes ANTIFA as

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Speaker 2: a quote militant enterprise made up of networks of individuals

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Speaker 2: and small groups, primarily ascribing to a revolutionary, anarchist or

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Speaker 2: autonomous Marxist ideology which explicitly calls for the overthrow of

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Speaker 2: the United States government, law enforcement authorities, and the system

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Speaker 2: of law unquote. So basically they view ANTIFA as left

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Speaker 2: wing anti authoritarians, right, That's how we can kind of

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Speaker 2: collapse the use of this term down into like a

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Speaker 2: single sentence, it's left wing anti authoritarianism. Though the defendants

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Speaker 2: never actually organized altogether under the Antifa name, the prosecution

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Speaker 2: argued that they were lanked through a triple ven diagram

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Speaker 2: of the Socialist Rifle Association, the John Brown Gun Club,

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Speaker 2: and the Emma Goldman book Club, and this all converged

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Speaker 2: on quote unquote direct militant action. I'm assuming people are

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Speaker 2: familiar with the SRA or the John Brown Gun Club

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Speaker 2: in some way. The Emma Goldman Book Club was a

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Speaker 2: local Zene distributor and publisher that also put on community

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Speaker 2: events from a radical, anti capitalist, usually anarchist friendly perspective

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Speaker 2: and mc goldwyn obviously being an anarchist yep.

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Speaker 3: And like the fact that obviously these three organizations aren't

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Speaker 3: actually tied together in any sort of like like they're

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Speaker 3: trying to frame it as like, you know, an al

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Speaker 3: Qaeda and an all Kainda affiliate type deal, right, which

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Speaker 3: is not sure accurate to how these organizations work or

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Speaker 3: what's going on here. But I'm not surprised that they

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Speaker 3: went with this line of argument.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, the defendants had connections to these groups, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And because these groups have an ideological underpinning that can

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Speaker 2: be seen as being quite similar in some ways, they're

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Speaker 2: viewing that as as part of the connection that connects

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Speaker 2: the individuals who were involved in these sorts of like

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Speaker 2: organizations or community events.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not surprised that's how they tried to argue. Sure.

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Speaker 2: A sticky notepad found at the Soto residence contained passwords

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Speaker 2: for the Emma Goldman book Club Twitter account and an

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Speaker 2: Antifa Dallas fort Worth Twitter account, which prosecution used his

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Speaker 2: evidence linking defendants to quote unquote Antifa. The government also

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Speaker 2: called on David Kyle Shittler as an expert weitness to

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Speaker 2: testify about Antifa.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Shittler is a member of the Center for Security Policy

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Speaker 2: and SBLC designateed hate group. He also helped draft the

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Speaker 2: definition of Antifa given in this case, and used that

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Speaker 2: definition while testifying in front of the Senate last year.

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Speaker 2: The defense missed a deadline to challenge the prosecutions antifa

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Speaker 2: expert qualifications, which would have needed to be filed as

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Speaker 2: a pre trial motion as opposed to an objection. During

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Speaker 2: the trial, prosecutors also cited Trump's Antifa Executive Order, despite

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Speaker 2: disorder being signed months after the Prairie Land incident, and

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Speaker 2: the prosecutors also claimed that the International Antifa Defense Fund

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Speaker 2: contributed over five thousand dollars to the Prairie Land defendants

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Speaker 2: give Send Go crowd funding page. So much of this

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Speaker 2: case was spent arguing over whether the defendants were in

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Speaker 2: fact Antifa and what that even means, like what does

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Speaker 2: it mean to be Antifa and if that's actually relevant

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Speaker 2: to the charges that they were facing. And by the

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Speaker 2: end of the trial it became more clear that the

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Speaker 2: defendants weren't exactly being prosecuted for being members of Antifa. Rather,

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Speaker 2: the government asserted that their proximity to this idea of

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Speaker 2: Antifa provided evidence to their motive and preferred tactics. Quoting

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Speaker 2: the Support Committee courtroom notes, quote, the government's strategy was

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Speaker 2: to display zines, stickers, pamphlets, flags, and other political materials anarchist,

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Speaker 2: anti fascist, anti ice, animal liberation, and argued that this

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Speaker 2: shared ideology proves conspiracy and motive. FBI case agent Casey

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Speaker 2: Bennett testified that the materials quote show a group of

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Speaker 2: people sharing an ideology and that this quote might lead

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Speaker 2: us to intent behind the attack and shows a conspiracy unquote.

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Speaker 2: Towards the end of the trial, Judge Pittman asked the prosecution, quote,

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Speaker 2: is it necessary to prove this stuff about Antifa? The

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Speaker 2: Support Committee courtroom notes say that the prosecution responded by

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Speaker 2: saying that Antifa ideology, particularly black block, was how the

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Speaker 2: group operated. The judge pressed, quote, whether it's Antifa or

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Speaker 2: the Methodist Women's Auxiliary, why does it matter?

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: The prosecution argued that they took quote unquote direct action

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Speaker 2: against the ICE facility and argued black block and Antifa

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Speaker 2: ideology were central to how the alleged attack was carried out.

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Speaker 3: Quote well, that's yeah, that's positive. At least I guess.

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Speaker 2: The government described Black Block for the purpose of this

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Speaker 2: case as quote dark clothing with head and face coverings

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Speaker 2: that concealed their identities, designed to hide each individual's identity,

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Speaker 2: but also to aid and those members engaged in illegal

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Speaker 2: acts by making members indistinguishable from one another to law

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Speaker 2: enforcement unquote. The jury was shown clothing from all the

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Speaker 2: defendants as evidence, as well as body armour and a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote resist fascism flag. Now, all this does raise

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Speaker 2: the question about whether this prosecution is against the defendant's

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Speaker 2: political ideology or the specific criminal acts of throwing fireworks

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Speaker 2: or shooting at a police officer, rather than being convicted

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Speaker 2: of being members of Antifa, the terrorist group, something that

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Speaker 2: still doesn't really have legal precedent. The prosecutors argued that

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Speaker 2: the Antifa ideology, left wing anti authoritarianism played a role

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Speaker 2: in in spe firing the defendants formed the basis of

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Speaker 2: political affinity that brought this collection of individuals together and

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Speaker 2: relate to a collection of security practices, subcultural practices, and

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Speaker 2: associated tactics which were employed before, during, and after the

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Speaker 2: criminal acts related to the noise demo quote unquote opsec

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Speaker 2: practices like you know, Black Block are using signal were

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Speaker 2: used as evidence, Yeah, that there was some sort of

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Speaker 2: conspiracy at foot.

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Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I mean, yeah, that makes sense from a

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Speaker 3: prosecutorial standpoint, Right, these people are talking about like just

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Speaker 3: the fact that there are zines talking about the purpose

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Speaker 3: of black block and people are having a planning meeting

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Speaker 3: ahead of time where they're like checking their gear and

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Speaker 3: talking about how they're going to come in and block.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, that's that's that's unfortunate. Yeah, I can

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Speaker 3: see why the prosecution went with that line of argument.

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Speaker 2: But how does this relate to like terrorism, right, because right,

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Speaker 2: conspiracy and terrorism are different things. Yes, So to get

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Speaker 2: an idea of the government's own preferred language regarding Antifa

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Speaker 2: terrorism all quote from the guilty plea drafted by the

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Speaker 2: government for a former defendant turned government witness. Quote the

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Speaker 2: terrorism was calculated to influence and affect the conduct of

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Speaker 2: government by intimidation or coercion. Co conspirators adhered to an

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Speaker 2: antifa anarchist ideology and organized cells or affinity groups. Co

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Speaker 2: conspirators began planning direct action at prairieland co conspirators agreed

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Speaker 2: to address in black bloc to provide cover for each

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Speaker 2: other to commit crimes, including concealing the escape of those

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Speaker 2: who committed destruction of government property unquote. So this is

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Speaker 2: how it relates to like the actual legal definition of terrorism, right,

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Speaker 2: which is certain criminal acts intending to change or influence

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Speaker 2: government policy by intimidation or coercion. Right. That's how the

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Speaker 2: government uses the term terrorism. And this this section of

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Speaker 2: the plea written by the government shows how the government

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Speaker 2: is self asserting the terrorists and that happened at Prairie Land.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of headlines talking about the role

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Speaker 2: of zines at this trial, and zines did play a

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Speaker 2: two part role. Prosecution did argue that the presence of

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Speaker 2: insurrectionary zines is indicative of some alignment with Antifa, even

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Speaker 2: if the possession of these zines itself is not a crime.

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Speaker 2: The government's Antifa expert testified that owning political text does

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Speaker 2: not necessarily indicate group membership or personal allegiance to an ideology. Quote.

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Speaker 2: Just because I own a copy of mind komf does

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Speaker 2: that make me a Nazi? If I own the Capital,

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Speaker 2: does that make me a Marxist? Unquote?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 2: Stunning? Stunning A first example given here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting call, but base, I mean, but also like

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Speaker 3: a valid argument.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is true, right, Yes, And this is.

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Speaker 3: I've seen people framing the verdict as having zene or whatever,

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Speaker 3: like it's an act of terrorism, and that's not what

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Speaker 3: it was decided here.

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Speaker 2: No, what's happening here is a bit more complicated and

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Speaker 2: harder to explain.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: The other relevancy of zines to this case relate to

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Speaker 2: the concealing documents charges against des Estrata and his wife,

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Speaker 2: Mari Rayuda, based on transporting a box of political zines

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Speaker 2: from his wife's house to a friend's house in Denton, Texas.

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Speaker 2: The government claims that Roeda called Dez from jail on

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Speaker 2: July sixth, instructing him to conceal evidence. Now, we don't

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Speaker 2: have access to a full transcript of this call. The

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00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 2: full call was given to the jury, but sections of

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Speaker 2: it were read or listened to in court. The most

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Speaker 2: detailed account of the call segments played in court come

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Speaker 2: from notes taken by the prairieland Defense Support Committee. The

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Speaker 2: actual evidence exhibit is not yet available to be purchased

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Speaker 2: on PACER. Not sure if it will be or if

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Speaker 2: that'll just be after sentencing. But I tried to actually

395
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: get the transcript of the call, and it was not available.

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Speaker 2: Des told his wife that he already talked with her mom,

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Speaker 2: who she had previously called the day before. Rida talked

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Speaker 2: about fed's confiscating property. FBI Special Agent Whitworth said in

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Speaker 2: his opinion, Raeda was concerned about the evidence. Rieda then

400
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: voiced concern for her car parked at the twenty four

401
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Speaker 2: hundred block of fifty sixth Street, which had her phone

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Speaker 2: stored inside. This was the staging site before she went

403
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Speaker 2: to the action. She then instructed Dez to quote unquote

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Speaker 2: toe it. My phone is in the back. Do what

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Speaker 2: you got to do. Just toe it unquote. The Support

406
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Speaker 2: Committee wrote that quote. Prosecution replayed this section, characterizing it

407
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Speaker 2: as Rida trying to get rid of evidence. Rada says

408
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Speaker 2: to quote unquote retrieve her items from the vehicle, does

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Speaker 2: not refer to her items using the word evidence, and

410
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Speaker 2: does not say hide, destroy, or conceal. Des never actually

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Speaker 2: got to this car or the phone. He explained that

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Speaker 2: the vehicle would be repoed, But Royta also said in

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Speaker 2: this call, quote move whatever you need to move in

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Speaker 2: the house. The Support Committee wrote that quote. Prosecution argued

415
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Speaker 2: this meant moving evidence. Defense noted she was talking about

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Speaker 2: pets at the time. Quote on the call, Des mentioned

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Speaker 2: that he had already been at the house and replied,

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Speaker 2: quote unquote, were good in reference to moving stuff from

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Speaker 2: the house. The defense questioned how they could have conspired

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Speaker 2: out of order right because the government claims there was

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Speaker 2: a conspiracy to concealed documents, but Des here said that

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Speaker 2: he moved things before he actually got on this phone

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Speaker 2: call with his wife. The FBI answered that Des just

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Speaker 2: had already acquired the necessary information to act, just not

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Speaker 2: directly from his wife. Now, des was found guilty of

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Speaker 2: quote corruptly concealing a document or record by transporting a

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00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 2: box containing numerous ANTIFA materials such as insurrection planning, anti

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Speaker 2: law enforcement, anti government, and anti immigration enforcement documents and propaganda,

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Speaker 2: intending to conceal the box's contents and impair its availability

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Speaker 2: for use in a federal grand jury and federal criminal

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Speaker 2: proceedings unquote. That's from the DOJ. He and his wife,

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Speaker 2: Rita were found guilty of conspiracy to conceal documents and

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Speaker 2: other objects that would implicate Rada in the riot and

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Speaker 2: shooting at the Prairie Land Facility. Also, according to the

435
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Speaker 2: Department of justice. So basically this was an evidence tampering

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00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: charge of concealing evidence charge. The actual presence of the

437
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: zines was not the crime, but the government argued that

438
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: the zines themselves were evidence, or that des suspected they

439
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: could be evidence, and that's why he moved them from

440
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: his wife's house to this other location. We're gonna go

441
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: and rumber break and then return to discuss two more charges. Okay,

442
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: we're back nine of the counts, count one, two, four,

443
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 2: and five through ten cited Pinkerton versus United States, nineteen

444
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: forty six.

445
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: Okay.

446
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 2: The judge explained this to the jury by saying that

447
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: a defendant can be criminally liable for the offenses committed

448
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: by another co conspirator if the offense was quote reasonably

449
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: foreseeable and committed in furtherance of the conspiracy, with the

450
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: judge writing in jury instructions, quote, a defendant can be

451
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: found guilty and held criminally liable for an offense under

452
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: Pinkerton co conspirator liability even if the defendant was not

453
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: charged with conspiracy. It is not required that the conspiracy

454
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 2: agrees to commit or facilitate each and every part of

455
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: a substantive offense that is, in furtherance of the conspiracy.

456
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: A defendant must merely reach an agreement with the specific

457
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: intent that the underlying criminal objective be achieved by the

458
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: conspiracy unquote. Early in the trial, prosecution argued that song

459
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: firing on the officers was quote unquote reasonably foreseeable based

460
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: on the planning of the action and previous statements made

461
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: by Song, But this Pickerton liability also applied to the

462
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: other charges, including riot material sport terrorism, and the explosive charge.

463
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: The jury found all defendants that were charged guilty of

464
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: counts one, two, three, and four that's riot material support

465
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: and to explosive charges, but did not find the other

466
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: defendants besides Song, guilty of attempted murder or discharging a

467
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: firearm using the Pinkerton co conspirator liability. The prosecution wanted

468
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: the other individuals at the protest to be found guilty

469
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: of the charge of attempted murder using the liability, and

470
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: the jury did not do that. Let's talk about two

471
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: of the charges that now carry some worrying potential to

472
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: be used against protesters in the future based on the

473
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: precedent that this case sets. First, the conspiracy to use

474
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: and carry in explosive and using n carry an explosive

475
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: during a riot. The only quote nquote explosives at this

476
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: noise demonstration protest were fireworks, and the judge even confirmed

477
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: that it was established that the fireworks caused no damage

478
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: to the ice facility. Yet Steven Brennemann Atis Explosives Special

479
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: Agent testified that fireworks meet the statutory definition of explosives

480
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: under eighteen USC. Section eight four four IJ because the

481
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: fireworks contain gunpowder as defined in the statute. This could

482
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: have some pretty wide reaching implications. A lot of protests

483
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: u fireworks. This was a protest on fourth of July,

484
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: a day full of the use of fireworks. Robert and

485
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: I have been to a protest, covered a protest in

486
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty outside of a federal government building that also

487
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: had a lot of fireworks and fireworks shot towards the building. Yep,

488
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 2: if that happened, now, it's possible that people at this

489
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: protest could be charged with this conspiracy to use and

490
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: carry an explosive.

491
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And I mean they've clearly been wanting arguing

492
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: for this ever since twenty twenty, right like fire Well,

493
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: because it wasn't just Portland wasn't the only place where

494
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: people were using fireworks. Generally, people were using fireworks as

495
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: kind of a response to the police using flash flashbacks, right,

496
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 3: like it was, it was a force equalizer. Both were

497
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 3: used quite often. But you know, like I had so

498
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 3: many of those fucking things blow up in my face

499
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: and then every day, like, these are not bombs, These

500
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: are not pipe bombs. Like it's not fun to have

501
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: them blow up right next to you, but it's these

502
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: are not like deadly explosives.

503
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: Yes, agreed. And even the agents investigating this case mailed

504
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: materials from these fireworks for testing using regular FedEx, not

505
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: labeling them as possibly dangerous or explosive, and the government

506
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: argued that it was because the amount in the FedEx

507
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: package was just so small that they didn't need to

508
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: label it as being dangerous.

509
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

510
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: Now, lastly, I need to discuss count two. It's providing

511
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: material support to terrorists. This is eighteen USC. Two three

512
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: three nine. This is the charge that a lot of

513
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: people are talking about. When they're mentioning someone has been

514
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: convicted of terrorism for XYZ, for using signal, for wearing

515
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: black block, for possessing zines. They're referring to this charge. Now,

516
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: this statute has two sections. Section B refers to knowingly

517
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: attempting to, conspiring to, or actually providing material support or

518
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization. This is not

519
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: how the government used this statute, right, They're not considering

520
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: Antifa a foreign terrorist organization for the purposes of this case.

521
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: That's the how are using this. The defendants were charge

522
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: receection a alleging that they provided and attempted to provide

523
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: material support and resources and did conceal and disguise the

524
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: nature of their material support and resources including property, services, training,

525
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: communications equipment, weapons, explosives, personnel including themselves, and transportation, knowing

526
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: and intending that they were to be used in preparation for,

527
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: and in carrying out an offense identified as a federal

528
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: crime of terrorism, or carrying out the concealment of an

529
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: escape from an offense identified as a federal crime of terrorism.

530
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 2: That's a lot. Yeah, that's a long sentence. This is

531
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: certainly a very confusing charge.

532
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

533
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: Now, this statute lists at least twenty eight possible terrorism offenses.

534
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: Now relevant to this case are three eighteen Usc. Eight

535
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: four four F, which is maliciously attempting to damage government

536
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: property by means of fire or an explosive for the

537
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: purpose of this case, that is throwing fireworks at a building.

538
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: Eighteen USC. One three sixty's one. That's wilful depredation against

539
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: any property of the United States exceeding one thousand dollars.

540
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: For the purposes of this case, this would be damage

541
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: to government property in other ways like slashing tires, graffeiti

542
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: that sort of thing, right. And finally, eighteen USC one

543
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: one four killing or attempting to kill an officer or

544
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: employee of the United States. That's pretty self explanatory. Yeah,

545
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: So the government accused the defendants of providing material support

546
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: in furtherance of committing these three crimes of terrorism, even

547
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: if each individual defendant themselves did not actually commit one

548
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: of these three crimes. To quote the jury instructions, quote,

549
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: the government does not have to prove all of these

550
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: to you for you to return a guilty verdict on

551
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 2: this charge. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt on one is

552
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: enough unquote. So the jury does not need to find

553
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: proof that all of these three terrorism offenses were committed.

554
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: That the explosives charge, the destruction government property charge, or

555
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: the attempt at killing charge. They just need to find

556
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: proof beyond a reasonable doubt that material support was provided

557
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: for one of these. Part of what makes this charge

558
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 2: kind of dangerous is that we don't know which terroristic

559
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: crime or crimes the jury found sufficient evidence for, or

560
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: if they used different offenses for different defendants, Nor do

561
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: we explicitly know what the jury thought qualified as material support.

562
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: It could have been driving people to an action, a

563
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: mere presence at an action, wearing black clothes, providing money

564
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: to buy fireworks, all those could be considered material support.

565
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: But because of how the jury just writes guilty on

566
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: this charge, we don't actually know what the specific justification

567
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: they used to find this to be true. Because the

568
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: discharges so is so broad and can contain a lot

569
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: of things that qualify as material support, including just being

570
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 2: merely present at an action like personnel can be material

571
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: support in furtherance of a federal crime of terrorism. So

572
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: wearing black block at an action where no crime happens

573
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: would not constitute terrorism, but wearing black clothes at a

574
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: protest where someone does an ideologically motivated crime of terrorism

575
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: could be seen as materially supporting that crime or concealing

576
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: the escape of the person who committed that crime. I

577
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: want to quote from the judge's instructions to the jury

578
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: regarding the First Amendment. Quote, Constitutionally protected speech can be

579
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,240
Speaker 2: properly used as evidence to prove a defend motive, intent,

580
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: and knowledge to commit the offense or further the unlawful

581
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 2: purpose of any jointly undertaken criminal activity. Stated another way,

582
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: if a defendant's speech, expression, or associations were made with

583
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: the intent to knowingly provide material support or resources to

584
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: be used to prepare for or carry out a violation

585
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: of federal law, or to carry out the concealment of

586
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: an escape from such a violation, then the First Amendment

587
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 2: would not provide a defense to that conduct unquote. So

588
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: it is possible now, using this case as precedent, if

589
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: you're present at a protest before someone commits a serious crime,

590
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: and you have a tangential link to that person, you

591
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: could also face similar charges. If you're in a group

592
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: chat with someone and then they commit a crime, you

593
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: could face similar charges. This is not the first time

594
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: the government has tried to use this sort of like

595
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 2: conspiracy against a large different group of protesters. Notably, they

596
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: tried to do this in Atlanta unsuccessfully. But I think

597
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: it's worth noting they were only unsuccessful on their reco

598
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: charges because of procedural error, not because of actual evidence

599
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: argued in court. It's that the prosecutor in that case

600
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: did not actually have justification or the legal justification to

601
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: bring this charge. So we never actually saw this get

602
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: argued out in front of a jury and find the

603
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: jury's verdict. But this is a part of an ongoing

604
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: strategy the prosecution has done against protesters the past few years,

605
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: and in this case successfully. Yeah.

606
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: And it's also like as bleak as this is, and

607
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: this is very bleak, this is not the final say

608
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 3: on how any case like this will be adjudicated everywhere.

609
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 3: This is a case in Texas, right like, this is

610
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 3: not Yes, this isn't the fucking US Supreme Court. It's

611
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: not even the Texas Supreme Court. Right, Yeah, Not to

612
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 3: minimize how fucking awful this is, but this does not

613
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 3: mean this is how cases like this will be adjudicated

614
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 3: every time they come to court everywhere in the US.

615
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: Yes, And the vagueness of the material support charge is

616
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: like a double edged sword, right one. It can be

617
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: used in cases like this, and we don't actually know

618
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: how they were exactly able to successfully argue that because

619
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: we don't know which specific federal offense of terrorism the

620
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: jury found material support was provided for, or if it

621
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,320
Speaker 2: was multiple offenses, Nor do we know exactly which things

622
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 2: the jury found constituted material support. But because we don't

623
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: know these things, that means when prosecutors try to argue

624
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: this charge again in the future, they kind of have

625
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 2: to start from the ground floor all over again. It's

626
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: harder to apply this exact precedent because the specific things

627
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: that constituted material support and the specific crime that material

628
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: support was provided for are sort of ambiguous. But the

629
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: vagueness of this charge certainly leads to a lot of confusion.

630
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: And you can now look at this case and see

631
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 2: that legal possession of firearms or firearms training and possession

632
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: of political paraphernalia could bolster ideological links between you and

633
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: defendants which could be used as evidence for a charge

634
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: like this right yep, or for conspiracy charges, and that

635
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: obviously is worrying. Now. A Song faces a minimum penalty

636
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 2: of twenty years a maximum of life in prison. Other

637
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: defendants of Prairie Land face sentences ranging from a minimum

638
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 2: of ten years to up to sixty The husband convicted

639
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: of concealing documents faces up to forty years in prison,

640
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 2: and those who pled guilty face the sentences of up

641
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: to fifteen years in federal prison, though their cooperation may

642
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: lower that. Another man faces charges for evidence tampering because

643
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: he allegedly removed Prairie Land defendants from discord chats last year.

644
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 2: But this is a state charge which will be going

645
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: to trial later in April.

646
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, that'll be interesting to watch, I guess. Yeah, this

647
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: is bleak. This is extremely worrying. That's part of the

648
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 3: point is to scare people, to make people feel they

649
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: can't trust other activists, to make people scared to organize,

650
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 3: to make them scared to be in group chats. And yeah,

651
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: there's very real reason to be concerned as a result

652
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 3: of this. However, none of this should be seen as

653
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: like the final word on all of this stuff. And

654
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 3: this certainly is not as simple as just having a

655
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 3: zine or wearing black is terrorism. Now, that's not what

656
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: was adjudicated here.

657
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 2: No, these things do all relate to, or they're trying

658
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: to be connected to, you know, actual crimes which did occur.

659
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 3: And that's certainly the goal by the way that the

660
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 3: right has, but that's not what they've achieved quite yet.

661
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely a way to try to scare

662
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: people out of organizing in the sense that you know,

663
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 2: you cannot be found a terrorist just by calling yourself

664
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: like Antifa, just by being Antifa alone by yourself, Yeah,

665
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 2: you're not going to be a terrorist. The same way

666
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: you can't be put in jail just for being a Nazi,

667
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 2: right right. But if you are part of a Nazi

668
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: group chat where you're planning an action, and then a

669
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: Nazi does something at the at the action, like shooting

670
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: a power substation, then that Nazi and the other Nazis

671
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 2: that he's organizing with, you know, could face terrorism charges.

672
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: That That is how those sorts of like cases work,

673
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: and a very similar thing is being done here. Mm hmm.

674
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: It's it's not the actual like political ideology necessarily at trial,

675
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 2: but organized with other people in furtherance of a political

676
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: ideology is what the government is trying to suppress. Yep.

677
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 3: Cool, Well, I don't have anything else to add at

678
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 3: this point.

679
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: You know, no when will certainly cover this. One's sentencing

680
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: happens later this year in June be careful.

681
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: And if you're in a group chat with somebody who

682
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: keeps writing shit that you're like, wow, that would be

683
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 3: a terrible thing to hear read back in court. Really

684
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: reconsider saying in a group chat with that person. Just

685
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: be wary about what you say and what other people

686
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: say to you online, not just because of court stuff,

687
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 3: because that like, if somebody is being incredibly reckless with

688
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 3: the things that they are putting down and writing, they're

689
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: probably being reckless in other areas. Just be careful, you know, folks,

690
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: Be careful.

691
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

692
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,240
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693
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,879
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694
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,480
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695
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,880
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