1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. This is our second to 2 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: the last episode while season two that's crazy we do. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 2: This is this is episode twenty nine. 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: It feels like it's flown by. You know why when 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: I said I want to do a podcast, I said, 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: I the only way I can do a podcast is 7 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: if I enjoy. If I enjoy every time it's on 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: my calendar. Like when I see like Mike and I 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: are going to have to record at five, I'm like, 10 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: Mike and I am. 11 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: Recording it five, what are we talking about? 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: That's when you know. That's when you know it's going 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: to be a good podcast. 14 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: Totally. I love it. I really it's been. It's so 15 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: much fun. I can't believe that this is episode fifty nine. 16 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: This is episode fifty nine. Total. Yeah, I love it. 17 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: So you guys know, like we have eighty thousand other 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: topics and we get equally excited about each and every episode. 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm an episode that I was like, that's a dud. 20 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: I feel like what preservatives. Let's go. My name is 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: Evil Longoria and I am Myra and Welcome to Hungry 22 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: for History, a podcast that explores our past and present 23 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: through food. 24 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: On every episode, we'll talk about the history of some 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: of our favorite dishes, ingredients, and beverages from our culture. 26 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: So make yourself at home. Even I feel like today's 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: episode we've touched on here and there, But I was 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: just in New York eating a bagel, and then you 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: and I got to talking about all the Jewish influences 30 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: in food. Yeah, but what are some things that don't 31 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: come to mind? That he has Jewish roots? 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: New York, that's where you can have all of that. Like, 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: really those foods that most people in the US associate 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: with Jewish foods, But we think of bagels and cafilter 35 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: division pastrami, but we don't think of cabrito or albondias. 36 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: But those also have Jewish roots, but a different type 37 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: of Jewish. 38 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: Root here in the US. When we think of Jewish foods, 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: we think of bagels and locks and pastrami. Like a 40 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: lot of things come to mind, And I think the 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: foods we associate with the Jewish delis those were introduced 42 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: by the Ashkenazi Jews who migrated to the States from 43 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: Central and Eastern Europe in the late nineteenth early twentieth century. 44 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: But there's other foods that are associated with the Jewish community, 45 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: different culture, different cuisine. Oh, the Sapharic Jews and those 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: origins come from the Iberian Peninsula, Spain, Portugal before the 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: Jewish expulsion from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition, right. 48 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 2: They were kicked out of Spain in fourteen ninety two 49 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: and then Ugo in fourteen ninety seven. 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: Here's the thing that I learned in searching for Mexico 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: that Gabrito was Jewish influenced because of the Crypto Jews 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: that were forced to convert to Catholicism, and they were 53 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: baptized Catholic and they followed, you know, the Catholic practices, 54 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: but they were practicing Judaism in secret. And so a 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: lot of those Sephardic Jews made their way to Central 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: Mexico in the fifteen hundreds and then obviously later made 57 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: their way into northern Mexico, which was Texas. And Mexican 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: cuisine has so many dishes with Sephardic Jewish roots. By 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: the way to Torrilla, which we talked about, albondigas Gabrito, 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: what else, what else? 61 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 2: Capirro tada, pande semita, some the Turcos which I've had 62 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: never had before. But there's so much, you know, and 63 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: even you cooking with things like you know, a lot 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: of garlic and cuman, that is something that is just 65 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: so sated with Sephardic you know, cuisine. 66 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: I do think cabrito is important because gabrito is interesting 67 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: because it's goat. I don't know if people know, but 68 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: gabrito's a roasted goat and it was so common with 69 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: the Sephardic Jews in Spain and Portugal because it adhered 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: to kosher laws, you know, it prohibits pork, it required 71 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: the humane slaughter of an animal, and goats were like 72 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: everywhere in the northern Mexico landscape. And so this tradition 73 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: of cooking cabrito, particularly in Monterey and that's like where 74 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: most of my family is from, Monterrey, nov Leon, a 75 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: lot of goat and that became way more popular than pork. 76 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: Like there wasn't a lot of pork, like there isn't 77 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: vera Cruz. Vera Cruz is like or in the Yucatan, 78 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, like there's so much pork in the coast. 79 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: But once you got to like the north and Monterey, 80 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: it's goat and beef, right, and so it was easy 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: for these Sephardic Jews to hide because they didn't have 82 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: to eat eat the pork. But I love gabrito and 83 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: the Sephardic culinary techniques really influenced the way I've eaten 84 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: it today. And they you know, they they slow roasting. 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: First of all, it's super slow. My dad would make 86 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: a gabrito almost every weekend. One time we had a 87 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: pet goat and my dad cooked it and I was like, 88 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: where scary, yeah, because I thought he thought that was 89 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: like my new pat and then we were eating it. 90 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: Oh oh, talk about trauma. But anyway, God, So the 91 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: slow roasting over the fire, you know, over the lenya, 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: that really is reminiscent of these ancient Jewish roasting traditions 93 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: for lamb. So they kind of just like applied those 94 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: same roasting techniques and they would spice it with cumin, garlic, oregano, cinnamon, clove, 95 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: really big in a gabrito. Did you have gabrito GOINGA? 96 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: I did? 97 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: I did. 98 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: My mom still makes it all the time. She roasted slowly. 99 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: She does it in the oven, like slow roast in 100 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: the oven. It's not my favorite. 101 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: It's not my favorite. Now it's a little gamey. 102 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little gamey, but I do love it. 103 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: And every time I go to Monterrey, we have to 104 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: have gaurito. And I remember going, you know, you know, 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: growing up in Loreto and no of a Loreedo, just 106 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: driving down the street and all of the restaurants they 107 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: have the Gavriito's and the window, you know, the goat 108 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: is just crucified in the window. But it remains a 109 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: really celebrated dish, and it has these crypto Jewish history 110 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: and most people might not consciously identified it, you know, 111 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: as this Jewish tradition. 112 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: The one thing it's so funny because I didn't grow 113 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: up with that bondigas, did you? 114 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: I did, see, I did grow up with that bondigas. 115 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: And I feel like albondigas is very Spanish. I feel 116 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: like it has a very like I eat them in 117 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: Spain and on searching for Spain, it's a very There's 118 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: a very traditional al bondiga dish with an almond sauce, 119 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,119 Speaker 1: like with the roasted nuts, which is very Moorish. Yeah, 120 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: but so how did it become Sephardic jew Ish? 121 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: The word? 122 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 3: I know? 123 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 2: This is where it gets really interesting because it's such 124 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: a mix of cultures. I grew up eating albondigas all 125 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: the time. My mom's the most amazing alondas in a 126 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: Chippotli sauce. So it's very Mexican. They're spicy, they're smoky. 127 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: But the word albondiga comes from the Arabic al bunduka, 128 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: something like that. 129 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: Anything all is you know, al andalous, al coohol, alcohol, alcohol, alcohol, Arabic. Yeah, 130 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: all this, so all bondiga is definitely Arabic. 131 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: It comes and it means like a small round object 132 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: of the Arabic word. This is where it gets really 133 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: interesting because yes it's Spanish. It comes from the Arabic, 134 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: so we see the Moorish influence in Spanish, you know, cuisine, 135 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: and then the Sephardic Jews who lived in Spain before 136 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: their expulsion in fourteen ninety two brought these over right 137 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: and adapted these culinary traditions, including these meatballs is a 138 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: meat and then they adapted it to the native ingredients. 139 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: So some Servardic versions of albondigas are made with lam 140 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 2: or beef and have cinnamon and cumin, you know, and garlic, 141 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: the almond ones that you mentioned. But also when Albondigas 142 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: made their way to Mexico. We start seeing tomato based sauces. 143 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: So these meatballs cooked in tomato based sauces Chipotle, which 144 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: is what I grew up with. So they just start 145 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: adapting and it's like everything, right, It's like cuisine is 146 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: constantly changing and constantly adapting, and so these traditions really 147 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: often get lost or we just don't think about where 148 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 2: where they came from. So there's really no written evidence 149 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: of Jewish foods until the thirteenth century. There's a cookbook 150 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: named al and the anonymous author include four hundred and 151 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 2: sixty two recipes and six have the names Jewish in 152 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: the title. So they identify them as different than the others, 153 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: and what unites them is their instructions to clean the 154 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: chicken and right, it's really interesting. And so we see 155 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: three ingredients that define Sephardic foods and that includes cilantro 156 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: olive oil, and garlic. 157 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: Well, I know, like early Sephardic migration with the Americans. Okay, 158 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: so like fourteen ninety two, you know, the Catholic Church 159 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: and the monarchs of Spain, Ferdinand and Isabelle, they expelled 160 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: all Jews from Spain, right to establish as Catholic Empire. 161 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: And so the Spanish crown had a lot of colonies 162 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: in America and they prohibited the Jews from settling even 163 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: in the colonies. So when the Jews fled, they entered 164 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: a lot of these regions pretending to be Catholic, and 165 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: so they would you know, outwardly be Christian, but then 166 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: they would obviously practice practice Judaism. And so this was 167 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: happening until the Inquisition made its way to the Americas, 168 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: and all these Holy courts were set up in places 169 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: like Lime Peruca, Colombia, Mexico City, and Ra Cruz because 170 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: Vera Cruz was the port, and so they literally had 171 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: people on guard as boats came in, and anybody suspected 172 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: of being a Jew was burned at the stake. And 173 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: so so many of these families, you know, left their 174 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: Jewish practices entirely, or they tried to like distance themselves 175 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: from their heritage to avoid dying, of avoid being burned 176 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: at the stake. 177 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Mexican's Inquisition, it you know, followed them in 178 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: fifteen seventy one, and it didn't until eighteen twenty. That's 179 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: a really long time. And yeah, there were practicing a 180 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: lot of their religions. And I mentioned, you know earlier 181 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: those six recipes from the thirteenth century cookbook that talks 182 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 2: about instructions to clean the chicken, and so are certain ways, 183 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: and we see these practices in Novoleon and Tami Pascualelas 184 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: and also among some Mexican Americans in Texas. There are 185 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 2: different ways of butchering chicken. So one is the chicken 186 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: is slaughtered by wringing their neck by hand or by 187 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 2: cutting off their head quickly, just with one stroke, and 188 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: then immediately hanging it to let the blood drain into 189 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: a container. And then the fowl that is then washed 190 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: to remove any any remaining blood. 191 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't why but why wouldn't everybody kill a chicken 192 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: that way? 193 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: It's the humane way to do it. 194 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: Right, Like I mean, I remember when I told you 195 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: I was my dad's what do you call the dogs 196 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: that go get the birds? So when my dad would 197 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: shoot polomas, they would fall and we would have to 198 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: run and go find them. And if they were still alive, 199 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: we would have to break their neck and we would 200 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: do that by ringing. We would ring their neck like wow, 201 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: and you would do to put them out of their misery. 202 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the way to do it. I don't think 203 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 2: I could do it, but but yeah, of course, otherwise 204 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: it's going to suffer. But this is something that's the secret. 205 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: Jews in Mexico in the sixteen forties they did exactly 206 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: the same thing. And oftentimes, you know, neighbors, business associates, 207 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: or housekeepers they would see these practices and they would 208 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: report these customs to inquisition officials. Let's talk about Carvajat Oh, 209 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: he founded Monterrey. 210 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: Who was this dude. 211 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: He was a Spanish nobleman explorer. He served as the 212 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: governor of the new Kingdom of Leon, which is present 213 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: day in northeast Mexico. He founded the city of Monterrey, 214 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: and he was born in Portugal. He was born Crypto Jewish, 215 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: and he immigrated to Spain and then made his way 216 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: to America. He said to be the first Spaniard to 217 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: cross the lower Rio Grande into what is now Texas. 218 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: But the Carvajal family was one of the most prominent 219 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: Crypto Jewish families in colonial Mexico in the Cia exteenth century. 220 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: So this guy, they publicly him and his family publicly 221 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: appeared Catholic he came to Mexico, he brought a bunch 222 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 2: of relatives over Gotvajada was charged with trafficking indigenous slaves, 223 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: so he was summoned to Mexico City. So he probably 224 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: was not a good guy. But the reason that he 225 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: was killed was because he was practicing his Judaism in 226 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 2: secret and he was caught. So this is why, and 227 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: he died. He was going to be executed. He died 228 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: in prison beforehand. But in the following years, his entire 229 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: family were all killed one hundred and twenty because they 230 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: were the family, because they were Jewish. His nephew, who 231 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: was also named Ruiz Garbaja, outed one hundred and twenty 232 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: other family members, including his own mother, his brother, his sisters, 233 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 2: and all of them were burned at the stake in 234 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: Mexico City's main square on December eighth, fifteen ninety six. 235 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: And this was happening up to eighteen twenty. And what's 236 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: crazy is that everything is recorded. When we did our 237 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: Halloween episode, we talked about chocolate and the inquisition, and 238 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: all of these things are recorded, and everything that a 239 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: person said, like, there's a record of all of this 240 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: and who outed them and what they were doing they 241 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: don't say. 242 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: The Catholic Church has the best records of everything. That's 243 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: why I was able to trace back my genealogy to 244 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: exactly where I was from and where my family was 245 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: born six hundred years ago, because of Catholicism, because of 246 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: because of the Catholic Church. Because there's the five sacraments, 247 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: which is birth, communion, confirmation, marriage, and death. So you're 248 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: always being tracked, you know what I mean. They know 249 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: who you married, they know where you were when you 250 00:14:53,360 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: got your communion land I mean all of that. The 251 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: flower tortilla is king in northern Mexico and South Texas. 252 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: That's my jam. You know that corn tortilla. I'm the 253 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: flower tortilla. I covered this in Searching for Mexico. But 254 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: there's a reason why the flower tortilla is so strong 255 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: in the north. 256 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: There is, yes, for sure, and there's also evidence of 257 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: corn tortillas being in during Passover. I went to UCLA 258 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: a few weeks ago and heard Elenja Warapignette. She's a 259 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: medieval culinary historian. I heard her speak. She was on 260 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: a book tour in the US. She just wrote this 261 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: cookbook called Mazza and Flower, and I really wanted to 262 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: talk to her and Lenja Warapignette teaches at the University 263 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: of Tour and the University of Bordeaux Montaigne in France. 264 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: She researches the culinary practices of Sephardic Jews through inquisition trials, 265 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: and is the author of Jews Food in Spain, the 266 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: oldest medieval Spanish cookbook and the Sephardic Culinary Heritage, and 267 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: the cookbooks Sephardi Cooking the History and Matsa and Flour. Eating, 268 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: she says, is a way to commemorate the past. I've 269 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: been following her work for a long time and was 270 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: so happy I had a chance to meet her in 271 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 2: person a few weeks ago while she was on book 272 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: tour in the States for her latest cookbook, Matsa and Flower. 273 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: We talked about, among other things, thirty yas. 274 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: Making corn tortillas, for example, in order to celebrate Passover. 275 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: So this is something very special because obviously corn did 276 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: not exist, yes at that time in Europe, so in 277 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 3: the Mediterranean. But nevertheless, the Jews from the middle of 278 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: the seventeenth century knew very well about how to practice Judaism. 279 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 3: So for example, we have this ALV carrion. She was 280 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: living in the countryside of Mexico and he had to 281 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: celebrate Passover, but he could not eat any wheat to 282 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: make elevened bread, so he decided to eat corn. And 283 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 3: the mention of corn is the Inquisition trials is very relevant, 284 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 3: so they knew about this. It's obviously the juice did 285 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: not invent invent the dishes with corn, but they knew 286 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 3: that they were able to eat corn to celebrate Passover, 287 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: and they also knew that the corn should. 288 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: Be nextimalized to make the tortillas. 289 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: So let's talk about why corn tortillas were okay to 290 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: eat during Passover but not flour. Five kinds of grains 291 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 2: are prohibited during Passover wheat, rye, barley, oats, and spelt 292 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: because these grains began to ferment and rise when they 293 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: come into contact with water for eighteen minutes, so this 294 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: in Hebrew, this rising grain is called comets, and so 295 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: during Passover, Jews avoid eating this. But if nick stimalized 296 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: corn is mixed with water and left to ferment, it 297 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: would undergo natural fermentation process. But since it's not one 298 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: of the five prohibited grains and fermentation doesn't happen. The 299 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:26,959 Speaker 2: same way Sephardic Jews in the sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth centuries. 300 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: So Sephardic Jews would eat nix stimalized corn products. And 301 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: so there's evidence during this time period in Mexico of 302 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 2: people during Passover or around Passover eating dosadas like the 303 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: corn thirtillas and you know, during this passover satyr and 304 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: dipping it into Chile. It's this really interesting adaptation of 305 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: the passover you know meal, it sort of becomes this 306 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, there were the corn thirtias was cultural, you know, 307 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: accept it. 308 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: So the interesting thing about the flower totia that it 309 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: was birthed out of this need to mimic unleavened bread, 310 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: right and so without without salt or fat. And and 311 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: that's how the flower tritilla was born by the crypto juice. 312 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what she was saying something that I found 313 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: really interesting is that they were making it without salt, 314 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 2: and that was something that was really key without salt, 315 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: and it was you know, it was fast right, cook 316 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: it within eighteen minutes to prevent fermentation. But if you 317 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: left out salt, this slowed down the baking process and 318 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: it helped ensure that thethias remained unleavened, and so making 319 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: thirtillas it made you know, crypto juice. As long as 320 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 2: they didn't put salt in it, they could maintain a 321 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: secret connection or hidden connection to their faith and still 322 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 2: blend in to what was growing with the wheat that 323 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: was growing in the north. 324 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 3: This is something very special because you know the tortillas, 325 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 3: the wheat tortillas are like one hundred percent exactly the 326 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 3: same as the matsa so the end of the bread. 327 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: So you know, this is crazy. 328 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 3: Because it's wheat and wheat flour and water and most 329 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 3: of the times there is no salt. So this is 330 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: really crazy because in fact, what they do is they 331 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 3: make tortilla or they ennov theed bread using so flour 332 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 3: and water and salt. But the fact that there is 333 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 3: no salt inside is really relevant and intriguing, in. 334 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: Fact so interesting. 335 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: I love a flower tortilla, so God, I do like 336 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: your salt and lard, but there was no lard in these. 337 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: So thank you Telapignet for joining us on the. 338 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: Show, and thank you all for listening. We'll see you 339 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: next week. 340 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 2: Thank you. 341 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: Hungary for History is a hyphen media production in partnership 342 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: with Iheart'smichaultura podcast Network. 343 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: For more of your favorite shows, visit the iHeartRadio app, 344 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.