Speaker 1: In case you're just recently joining us, or however long
Speaker 1: you've been a listener of the show. You may not
Speaker 1: realize that we have years and years of incredible episodes
Speaker 1: in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that
Speaker 1: we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may
Speaker 1: be new to you, but if not, it's definitely worth
Speaker 1: another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Jinny Gay.
Speaker 2: The inner Critic tells so many lies, one of which
Speaker 2: is that you're the only one.
Speaker 3: You're the only one that struggles with this or that.
Speaker 2: But the truth of the inner critic is everyone has
Speaker 2: some component of it, and now how much it trips
Speaker 2: you up, It can vary from person to person, but
Speaker 2: it is ubiquitous.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Ginny Gay,
Speaker 1: a certified mindfulness teacher who has worked with Eric to
Speaker 1: create content here at the One You Feed for the
Speaker 1: past eight years. Prior to that, she's spent thirteen years
Speaker 1: in the corporate world, where she thought climbing the corporate
Speaker 1: ladder equated to success in life. Instead, that approach ultimately
Speaker 1: led her to a place of severe burnout, addiction, anxiety,
Speaker 1: and depression. Now she knows that for her, success in
Speaker 1: all aspects of life comes from living from a place
Speaker 1: of authenticity and integration, where meaningful work and relationships are
Speaker 1: the fruit and contribution to the world. Jenny loves creating courses, programs, workshops,
Speaker 1: and written content to help people live life more skillfully
Speaker 1: and to help them navigate the difficulties that come from
Speaker 1: the inherent challenges of being human so that they can
Speaker 1: experience more peace, purpose, and joy in their daily Lives.
Speaker 4: Hi Ginny, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Hi Eric, this is so fun.
Speaker 4: Yes, so, listeners, you will have heard Jenny on a
Speaker 4: couple podcast interviews, and if you've received anything from the
Speaker 4: One You Feed that's been written in the last seven years,
Speaker 4: six years, Jenny's little typing fingers had been all over it.
Speaker 4: And you're running your mindfulness course for the second time
Speaker 4: soon and taking more of an active role in putting
Speaker 4: things out into the world with the One You Feed.
Speaker 4: So I just want to give listeners a chance to
Speaker 4: know you better. And of course you are my partner
Speaker 4: in business and in life, and.
Speaker 3: So yes, welcome, thank you. It's wonderful to be here.
Speaker 4: You know how, we start with a parable, so I'm
Speaker 4: still going to read it, or I don't read it,
Speaker 4: I actually recite it since I know it. In the parable,
Speaker 4: there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say,
Speaker 4: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 4: are always at battle. What is a good wolf, which
Speaker 4: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 4: other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and
Speaker 4: hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it.
Speaker 4: For a second and looks up at their grandparents and says, well,
Speaker 4: which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed.
Speaker 4: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 4: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 4: the work that you do.
Speaker 2: I love that parable other than you. It's what caused
Speaker 2: me to fall in love with the show for the
Speaker 2: first time.
Speaker 3: But it is so important.
Speaker 2: I think to who I am, and how have you
Speaker 2: the world and how have you my life? Because what
Speaker 2: that parable tells me is that we have choice, and
Speaker 2: we have impact in the way we show up and
Speaker 2: the way we experience life. And the more aware we
Speaker 2: are of what's happening inside of us and around us
Speaker 2: in the moment, the more.
Speaker 3: Choice we have.
Speaker 2: And then the more choice we have, often the more
Speaker 2: skillful we can be. So life can feel better and
Speaker 2: be better than it does in this moment, right if
Speaker 2: we have the ability and the skillfulness to choose and
Speaker 2: to know how to make it so. I always get
Speaker 2: this hit of like euphoric liberation when I remember that
Speaker 2: in real time, which is like, oh I'm not stuck here,
Speaker 2: you know, Oh okay, doesn't feel great? Now I can
Speaker 2: actually make this feel better or be better.
Speaker 3: It's life changing, right.
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that I've come to
Speaker 2: really understand at a deeper.
Speaker 3: Level about the Parable.
Speaker 2: Is that it's not about casting out the bad wolf.
Speaker 2: It's about integrating the two, integrating ourselves in a way
Speaker 2: that all can be held in some loving awareness.
Speaker 3: You know. We may not like or we may not want.
Speaker 2: To cultivate certain unskillful states, but we can be with
Speaker 2: it all right, and we don't have to put anything
Speaker 2: out of our hearts, and in that way we can
Speaker 2: really transform. So it's become my worldview and my life
Speaker 2: experience well enough times. And you know, I'm always amazed
Speaker 2: at all the different interpretations that this parable has, like
Speaker 2: that every guest has a slightly different or more or
Speaker 2: nuanced kind of perspective. And I'm surprised by that because
Speaker 2: it seems so clear to me and so simple, yet
Speaker 2: it's really rich. I think that's the other reason I it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you honed in on the main part
Speaker 4: of it for me is choice. Yeah, you know, because
Speaker 4: I think that parable just points to we have a choice, yeah,
Speaker 4: but we often forget we have a choice, yeah, And
Speaker 4: remembering it is so important and in order to remember it,
Speaker 4: we have to use mindfulness. We need to be aware,
Speaker 4: we need to be paying attention.
Speaker 2: Well, we just didn't know we had a choice, right, Like,
Speaker 2: not only maybe we forgot, but maybe we never knew.
Speaker 2: And then when we realize, like, oh wait a minute,
Speaker 2: this could be different, It really could be different. It's
Speaker 2: not like wishful thinking. It's just revolutionary.
Speaker 4: So let's let listeners get to know a little of
Speaker 4: your backstory that brought you to the point that you
Speaker 4: really started to engage with this work in a meaningful way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, where do you want to start?
Speaker 4: Well, let's start with very brief sort of biographical sketch
Speaker 4: where you grew up. Yeah, you come from some of
Speaker 4: those basics. And then I want to get through to
Speaker 4: the ideas sooner than.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I do love to talk, and I
Speaker 2: know this, wee could start back and like I was
Speaker 2: born February fourth, nineteen seventy nine. No, I was born
Speaker 2: and raised in Atlanta, Georgia by to really loving, devoted
Speaker 2: parents who really just gave me a sense of what
Speaker 2: support and love meant. And I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think every family has issues and problems
Speaker 2: and wounds and areas of rub and a real problem.
Speaker 3: But like when I distill it all.
Speaker 2: Down, what I know is my parents are and we're loving,
Speaker 2: supportive parents and people, and so I'm really grateful for
Speaker 2: that start. You know, it gave me the ability to
Speaker 2: feel my feet starting on the ground from the get go.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think there's an interesting nuance in what you just
Speaker 4: said there, though, which is you can acknowledge that your
Speaker 4: parents were very loving and you got a lot of
Speaker 4: benefit for them, and you can also acknowledge ways in
Speaker 4: which their parenting style, the wounds that they carry, the
Speaker 4: issues that they had still impact on our lives. And
Speaker 4: I think we often get stuck in a either I
Speaker 4: had a terrible childhood or I had a great childhood.
Speaker 4: My parents were good, they weren't good. And I think
Speaker 4: there are some cases where it's clearly almost all good
Speaker 4: you had just outstanding parents, But it's not, you know,
Speaker 4: not that common and we certainly know the horrors. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but for a lot of us, there's a lot of nuance,
Speaker 4: and so you know, trying to find both the good
Speaker 4: and the bad in it the thing can be really
Speaker 4: positive instead of just only focusing on one of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean, as we grow up, we start
Speaker 2: to realize how human our parents are, and you know,
Speaker 2: they have their own wounds, they have their own conditioning
Speaker 2: and patterning and life experience, and just like me, those
Speaker 2: things could come in the way of love, or those
Speaker 2: things could trip them up in ways that made it
Speaker 2: so that the heart of them, which to this day
Speaker 2: I still feel like I connected with and know which
Speaker 2: is loving, just couldn't show up in the fullness it
Speaker 2: that it wanted to.
Speaker 3: And so if anything other.
Speaker 2: Than blame, I have compassion and I have gratitude for
Speaker 2: how they continued to try and show up.
Speaker 4: Yep, okay, so okay, childhood, that's well, right, adolescence yeah, exactly,
Speaker 4: all right.
Speaker 2: So adolescence was hard. Let's see, that's about Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was hard. It's hard for everybody, right. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that the wounds of my life, the pain of
Speaker 2: my life again on the spectrum of pain, could be minimized, right,
Speaker 2: depending how far out you zoom, I will say that
Speaker 2: sensing my own pain and discomfort in my own internal
Speaker 2: world and not wanting to be with it or not
Speaker 2: wanting to experience it has driven me a lot in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, adolescence, some of that pain comes. Yeah,
Speaker 4: let's keep moving forward.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm starting to think of all the things I
Speaker 2: could share.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then I went to college in Mississippi, and being
Speaker 2: the oldest child, I had the very like I want
Speaker 2: to do a good job. I want to like please people,
Speaker 2: and I want to be successful and you know, make
Speaker 2: my parents proud. And so just show me the rule book, show.
Speaker 3: Me what I should do.
Speaker 2: I'll do it, and then you'll be happy and I'll
Speaker 2: be successful.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: So that was kind of my approach, and as it
Speaker 2: turns out, life it didn't really work that way, fortunately
Speaker 2: or unfortunately. And I graduated college. I got married right
Speaker 2: out of college, and got my first job right out
Speaker 2: of college. We're talking two days after I graduated. And
Speaker 2: it was in the corporate world, in the pharmaceutical industry.
Speaker 2: And there was so much about the corporate world and
Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical industry that I loved and I'm so grateful
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 3: Marriage was very short lived.
Speaker 2: A lot of it was sort of connected to how
Speaker 2: dogmatically we had been members of our Christian church, this
Speaker 2: branch of a Presbyterian church. It was a very as
Speaker 2: it turns out, fundamentalist kind of branch of the president
Speaker 2: here in church, and I feel like that was problematic
Speaker 2: because not being allowed to show up fully as ourselves
Speaker 2: cause there to be secrets, and those secrets in the
Speaker 2: marriage caused the marriage to sort of crumble, and I
Speaker 2: filed for divorce, and the church did not support that
Speaker 2: and did not reach out in sympathy, empathy or compassion
Speaker 2: and did not want to know why, and just sort
Speaker 2: of wanted to judge and dictate. And it was at
Speaker 2: that point that I kind of said, wait a second,
Speaker 2: you know, like, if there's a God, this is between
Speaker 2: me and God, not me and a bunch of at
Speaker 2: the time, you know, white middle aged men telling me
Speaker 2: in the elders of the church, telling me what could
Speaker 2: and couldn't be according to God, and so yeah, I
Speaker 2: kind of rebelled against all that and said, like, forget it.
Speaker 2: I can't live like this. I don't want to live
Speaker 2: like this the rest of my life, got a divorce,
Speaker 2: and continued on in the corporate world, trying to sort
Speaker 2: of sort out what's what if it's not what I
Speaker 2: thought it was.
Speaker 4: The church had been an important part of the life,
Speaker 4: I mean up till then, you were very involved and
Speaker 4: now all of a sudden, it's just gone.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean there were a couple of years in high
Speaker 2: school when I was like super rebellious and wasn't super
Speaker 2: church going. But then the last part of high school
Speaker 2: I really identified as like, oh, that's the right way
Speaker 2: to do things, and I'll do it that way, and
Speaker 2: I kind of just jumped in wholeheartedly.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, And so you were in the corporate world
Speaker 4: a number of years and we're fairly successful at it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and there were some good things about it, but it
Speaker 4: ultimately did not end well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's soured. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I kind of climbed the corporate ladder pretty early on,
Speaker 2: and I really loved so much of the jobs that
Speaker 2: I held, both in sales and in sales training and
Speaker 2: then in sales management. Largely it was the people that
Speaker 2: I loved, you know, but I also loved the ability
Speaker 2: of making a real difference. In pharmaceuticals. You know, there's
Speaker 2: going to be all kinds of feelings about that as
Speaker 2: I speak at you know, it's a polarizing industry, right.
Speaker 2: The part of it that I really connected to was
Speaker 2: the part that does a lot of good and brings
Speaker 2: medication or ways to alleviate people suffering into the hands
Speaker 2: of the people that can get it to the patients
Speaker 2: that need it. And so I felt very mission driven
Speaker 2: in that way at every level of the industry in
Speaker 2: which I worked. And then the people that were around
Speaker 2: me became like my family. It became really my identity
Speaker 2: until really I hit kind of that glass ceiling everybody
Speaker 2: talks about. My experience was that I got to a
Speaker 2: certain level of climbing ladder and then there were no
Speaker 2: more rungs on that ladder for me to climb. Though
Speaker 2: I saw them, they weren't available to me.
Speaker 3: You know, other men that.
Speaker 2: Were less successful or less experienced were getting promoted and
Speaker 2: put in for opportunities before and instead of me. And
Speaker 2: then it became an environment of having some bosses that
Speaker 2: were really toxic, and they did not believe in me,
Speaker 2: and every bit of me that was out in the
Speaker 2: world and outspoken and assertive. The way it felt to
Speaker 2: me was that those edges were too sharp and that
Speaker 2: needed to be dulled down. And that's when everything soured
Speaker 2: and sorted to turn is because you know, I kept
Speaker 2: trying harder and harder and harder to please and do
Speaker 2: right and be successful and do good, and I just
Speaker 2: kept getting dulled more and more put down, criticized, and
Speaker 2: I hit a point to where I felt like, Okay,
Speaker 2: so my lack of enthusiasm about this industry, this job,
Speaker 2: and my lack of engagement with it, my inability to
Speaker 2: sort of focus on it and stay with it.
Speaker 3: I was diagnosed in high school.
Speaker 2: With add so I was like, maybe this is my
Speaker 2: add So I went to a doctor. This doctor agreed.
Speaker 2: They prescribed to me this stimulant similar to adderall called
Speaker 2: violence and it worked. I mean, you know, it worked
Speaker 2: to help all of those things in the short term,
Speaker 2: it was really helpful. In the long term, that was
Speaker 2: not a great massive for me because it became something
Speaker 2: that I leaned way too heavily on, began to abuse,
Speaker 2: and then began to medicate the abuse of that with
Speaker 2: things like alcohol to come down off of the high
Speaker 2: that that stimulant.
Speaker 3: Gave me during the day.
Speaker 2: And then later it became I needed ambien to be
Speaker 2: able to go to sleep because I was taking so
Speaker 2: much stimulant, and so my weekdays were medicated my ups
Speaker 2: and my downs, my consciousness and in my sleep and
Speaker 2: weekends I was just completely dead to the world. To
Speaker 2: try to recoup so that I could start all over
Speaker 2: again on Monday. Meanwhile, I was in a relationship that
Speaker 2: I really had identified myself with, had become very messed
Speaker 2: with this person, but it wasn't a great match, and
Speaker 2: that crumbled like and like now, which is truly a
Speaker 2: very different story which we can get to. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so that crumbled. Everything around me was sort of crumbling,
Speaker 2: and I was living so far outside of myself that
Speaker 2: I caused a lot of pain, not only for myself
Speaker 2: but others. And I carry a lot of shame and
Speaker 2: weight around those days when I just I was not
Speaker 2: showing up in the world in the way that my
Speaker 2: best self would want me to. I was struggling to
Speaker 2: figure fure out how to survive, forget thriving, just survive
Speaker 2: in this world. I just couldn't see any other world.
Speaker 2: I couldn't see any other way to exist. I didn't
Speaker 2: know what other industries were out there or jobs. I
Speaker 2: didn't think I could find any other way to be.
Speaker 2: I certainly thought, well, I better figure out how to
Speaker 2: moderate my viabance usage because I don't know how to
Speaker 2: live without this medicine. I feel dead inside. I look
Speaker 2: at the next thirty years of my life, and I
Speaker 2: feel exhausted, not excited. I felt completely detached and empty,
Speaker 2: and I didn't see another way forward.
Speaker 3: And all of that ended.
Speaker 2: In sort of a crash and burn and landed me
Speaker 2: back home in my parents' house. It probably around thirty
Speaker 2: years old, my early thirties, and I had to kind
Speaker 2: of figure out what next.
Speaker 4: So, Okay, you are now addicted to vibants, have an
Speaker 4: alcohol problem because you're using alcohol to cope with it.
Speaker 4: You have lost your job, which was kind of your
Speaker 4: identity and career of you lost this relationship that was
Speaker 4: sort of another part of your identity, and your back
Speaker 4: living with your parents. Yep, so things are going well.
Speaker 3: Things I'm really living the dream. No, I'm sort of
Speaker 3: back home.
Speaker 2: Thank god I had a home to go back to
Speaker 2: where I could sort of pick up the pieces and
Speaker 2: sort things.
Speaker 3: Out, which I began to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, I will say that it's always been my
Speaker 2: experience and therefore it has always been my belief in
Speaker 2: the thing I've held on too, that we grow through difficulty.
Speaker 2: And so I did think, oooh boy, like I'm probably
Speaker 2: going to be doing some really big gross in and
Speaker 2: through this, and I was I really held on with faith,
Speaker 2: this hope that like on the other side of this
Speaker 2: is a full or more beautiful like soul of me.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know how to get to that yet,
Speaker 2: but I know it's there. And I think that hope
Speaker 2: and that knowledge and that faith and that experience having
Speaker 2: seen that for yourself is really critical to grow and
Speaker 2: as supposed to like calcify through difficult times. And so
Speaker 2: I've always been spiritually sort of attuned and connected to
Speaker 2: things that speak to a deeper of life. I mean,
Speaker 2: back in my days of Christianity, but then even now,
Speaker 2: I mean I was searching through all kinds of things
Speaker 2: in the spiritual realm of things to help find a
Speaker 2: thread to grasp onto. And so I began to explore
Speaker 2: mindfulness and meditation, and that's how I began to put
Speaker 2: the pieces of my life in place to begin building
Speaker 2: a foundation that was stronger than the one I'd had before.
Speaker 4: So what do you think were some of the key
Speaker 4: things that allowed you to sort of transform from that
Speaker 4: till now now? I know it's been a long journey
Speaker 4: to get there, But what are some of the key
Speaker 4: ideas or key learnings you know, as you started to
Speaker 4: kind of put things together. You just identified one, which
Speaker 4: is at least being willing to identify this as a
Speaker 4: possibility for growth. It doesn't mean to minimize the pain
Speaker 4: that we're in, but to at least have part of
Speaker 4: one eye on. Oh yeah, this could be a growth opportunity.
Speaker 4: So that's one. What are some other things? Well?
Speaker 2: I have a seminal moment that I remember. Of course
Speaker 2: you know this, I've told you this many times, but
Speaker 2: it's this moment sitting watching an interview of Pemma children.
Speaker 2: It's the beloved Buddhist teacher, and she was talking about
Speaker 2: difficult feelings and how we have a tendency to not
Speaker 2: want to feel them right. And she posed this question,
Speaker 2: which was when we sensed difficult feelings, there just asking
Speaker 2: can I be with this? And I just remember it
Speaker 2: was like an acorn dropped to my head, you know,
Speaker 2: and I was like, what I mean? It had never
Speaker 2: occurred to me can I be with this? The message
Speaker 2: I had always gotten somehow was do not.
Speaker 3: Be with that.
Speaker 2: In fact, if you do, you will probably never recover
Speaker 2: that abyss of sadness or fear or whatever that unpleasant
Speaker 2: feeling was was something that you just don't recover from,
Speaker 2: so you just don't go there. But when she was like,
Speaker 2: can I be with this? It sparked my curiosity and
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I don't know, can I? And
Speaker 2: I thought, why don't I just try and not like
Speaker 2: try to open to it fully, but like try to
Speaker 2: like slide my toe over into that area and just
Speaker 2: like see what it kind of feels, and we'll just
Speaker 2: take it from there. And that was a turning point
Speaker 2: because instead of running away from those uncomfortable, unpleasant, difficult,
Speaker 2: scary feelings, I started to turn towards them. And that
Speaker 2: shift is radical and critical, right, because I stopped running
Speaker 2: from things.
Speaker 4: Yep. I often think that is the seminal critical shift
Speaker 4: in every alcoholic addicts life. That sobriety is not possible
Speaker 4: until there is some grasp of okay, whatever comes, I
Speaker 4: can be with it. I may not like it, I
Speaker 4: may hate it, it may be awful, but I can
Speaker 4: be with it. I don't have to escape it. Because
Speaker 4: as long as we think we have to escape, we've
Speaker 4: got a very convenient escape that we've often gone to,
Speaker 4: you know, one that does for a period of time
Speaker 4: and in some ways actually work for a very short time.
Speaker 4: So it makes it very difficult to achieve lasting sobriety
Speaker 4: until we get that. Okay, I can be with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it wasn't like immediately I knew I could
Speaker 2: be with it all fully. But what I started to
Speaker 2: see was I can be with a bit of it,
Speaker 2: and it's not nearly as obliterating as I thought.
Speaker 3: It was going to be.
Speaker 2: In fact, I might even say in that moment for me,
Speaker 2: I was like, this isn't nearly as bad as I
Speaker 2: thought it was going to be. And so that showed
Speaker 2: me I could be with a little more of it,
Speaker 2: and a little more of it, and a little more
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: As I look back on it now.
Speaker 2: What I realize is it was the building of that
Speaker 2: skill and sort of ability to tolerate discomfort that everything
Speaker 2: else unfolded.
Speaker 3: I mean, it is so.
Speaker 2: True that where the wound is, that too is where
Speaker 2: the healing is. Though we may not have all the
Speaker 2: knowledge in the world, it has been my experience that
Speaker 2: I do have wisdom inside of me, and that wisdom
Speaker 2: can help guide me. Right, I can grow that wisdom.
Speaker 2: I'm not like you know a finished product here and
Speaker 2: just tap into it and you'll know everything you need
Speaker 2: to know. But there is some wisdom there, There is
Speaker 2: some discernment, and you can begin to tap into that
Speaker 2: when you begin to open to the wounds in a
Speaker 2: skillful way. That has some support. So fast forward a bit.
Speaker 2: One of the ways I found support was in the
Speaker 2: podcast I was first a listener, And we can save
Speaker 2: our story of how we connected for perhaps another episode,
Speaker 2: because that's a whole.
Speaker 3: Story in and of itself.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the parable when I first heard that, I realized, Okay,
Speaker 2: so let's name some things here. Let's name that we
Speaker 2: have choice. Let's name that we all have all the
Speaker 2: tendencies inside of us, right, and that we have the
Speaker 2: ability to nurture the life we want to live and
Speaker 2: have in the way we want to experience things. And
Speaker 2: so starting a meditation practice where I sort of began
Speaker 2: regularly sitting with myself, connecting to myself because up until
Speaker 2: then I had lived so far outside of myself, with
Speaker 2: my north story being somewhere out there. I don't even
Speaker 2: know if I could have identified it, but I began
Speaker 2: cultivating a connection to it within myself. And so that was,
Speaker 2: you know, give or take ten years ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the short version of our meeting story is
Speaker 4: we met online, but not in the way people normally
Speaker 4: meet online, not through a dating service, but through the podcast.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had started a blog and I did a
Speaker 2: blog post on the parable and I tagged you in it,
Speaker 2: and you shared it, and I was thrilled, And yeah,
Speaker 2: begin diving deeper into some of the episodes of The
Speaker 2: One You Feed Like. One of the first I remember
Speaker 2: is the first episode with Emily White on loneliness. Well,
Speaker 2: first of all, I realized I had no idea what
Speaker 2: it was. I was necessarily feeling other than inside of me.
Speaker 2: It just felt bad. But when I listened to that episode,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, wait, part of this is loneliness
Speaker 2: because I had sort of walled myself off from the
Speaker 2: world and so much of everything. It's so powerful to
Speaker 2: be able to name a problem name of human experience.
Speaker 2: It's like, instead of it then having a lot of
Speaker 2: power because you've named it, like you've given it power,
Speaker 2: it's actually the opposite of at least in my experience.
Speaker 2: What happens is you have then the power to recognize
Speaker 2: it when it shows up, figure out how to work
Speaker 2: skillfully with it. You're not so en meshed and entangled
Speaker 2: and identified with it it's like you and then that
Speaker 2: thing over there.
Speaker 3: You know, it's really powerful.
Speaker 4: Yeah. You talk a lot about the power of naming things,
Speaker 4: and I think some people struggle with naming because naming
Speaker 4: can become labeling and can become identity. But when we
Speaker 4: don't take it that far, it's an enormously helpful tool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 2: Hi, everybody, it's Jinny. You've probably heard me with Eric
Speaker 2: on some episodes of The One You Feed. I have
Speaker 2: a question for you. Are you your own worst critic?
Speaker 2: I mean, when you pay attention to how you talk
Speaker 2: to yourself, is it just kind of mean? And do
Speaker 2: you often feel beat down and.
Speaker 3: Just heavy and side?
Speaker 2: If so, I truly understand the struggle. I used to
Speaker 2: believe that relating to myself this way was what kept
Speaker 2: me performing at any acceptable level, and without it, I
Speaker 2: thought I'd drift off.
Speaker 3: Into the deep end and become.
Speaker 2: A failure in pretty much every aspect of my life.
Speaker 2: But it turns out that's actually one of the inner
Speaker 2: critics worst lies that it helps you. I mean maybe
Speaker 2: short term you get a push and do well, but
Speaker 2: long term it's corrosive and it actually keeps you from
Speaker 2: living to your potential. I've created a free three part
Speaker 2: video series that teaches you how to get to the
Speaker 2: other side of the inner critic like I have, and
Speaker 2: you can grab it today. Just head to oneufeed dot
Speaker 2: net slash Inner Critic. I'm sharing this with you as
Speaker 2: not only an inner critic survivor, but also a certified
Speaker 2: mindfulness teacher, and you can learn to relate to yourself differently,
Speaker 2: living with an inner lightness and not a sense of
Speaker 2: being at battle with yourself, and life is so much
Speaker 2: better when you're a friend to yourself, I promise. So
Speaker 2: go to oneufeed dot net slash inner Critic for my
Speaker 2: free mini course see you in the videos.
Speaker 4: So let's move into one of the areas that you
Speaker 4: really specialize in working on and helping people with, which
Speaker 4: is the inner critic. You refer to yourself as an
Speaker 4: inner critic survivor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean not to joking, yeah, not to like
Speaker 2: make the word survivor or anything trite, but I do
Speaker 2: feel that way in terms of like, the inner critic
Speaker 2: can be so corrosive that it feels like a slow
Speaker 2: death inside, and to come back from that does feel
Speaker 2: like you've fought a good fight and survived, at least
Speaker 2: in my experience.
Speaker 4: You've said that you think the inner critic is perhaps
Speaker 4: the number one cause of self created suffering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that would be a hypothesis. I
Speaker 2: don't have evidence behind that, but I do know it
Speaker 2: speaks to a couple things.
Speaker 3: The first is how common it is.
Speaker 2: The inner critic tells so many lies, one of which
Speaker 2: is that like, you're the only one, You're the only
Speaker 2: one that struggles with this or that. But the truth
Speaker 2: of the inner critic is everyone has some component of it.
Speaker 2: And now how much it trips you up, it can
Speaker 2: vary from person to person, but it is ubiquitous. And
Speaker 2: in terms of suffering, your inner critic might want you
Speaker 2: to think that it's showing up for your own good,
Speaker 2: but as an adult, it actually does the opposite. It
Speaker 2: keeps you small, it keeps you in pain. It's very painful,
Speaker 2: and it tells you lies about who you are and
Speaker 2: who you aren't, and so you don't really ever step
Speaker 2: out into who you could be.
Speaker 4: And so how do we work with the inner critic
Speaker 4: versus the inner I don't know what the word I
Speaker 4: would call it is inner guide conscience. You know, the
Speaker 4: part of ourselves that does genuinely reflect on when we've
Speaker 4: made a mistake, Yeah, when we need to do something better,
Speaker 4: when we need to apologize. How do we differentiate the
Speaker 4: inner critic, which is a destructive force, from I'll just
Speaker 4: use the word conscience, which is a good force.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I could talk a long time about this,
Speaker 2: but I'll say a couple of things.
Speaker 3: The first is.
Speaker 2: You have to sort of discover for yourself that indeed
Speaker 2: you actually are enough.
Speaker 3: You are a whole.
Speaker 2: You may not be a complete work of a human yet,
Speaker 2: but you are whole.
Speaker 3: You are not missing key pieces, You are not.
Speaker 2: Lacking in a way that would give you the right
Speaker 2: to show up in the world with dignity right like,
Speaker 2: you are a whole.
Speaker 3: You are worthy, as Brene Brown says, of.
Speaker 2: Love and belonging, and you are enough. And that's one
Speaker 2: of the things I love about mindfulness is that it
Speaker 2: orients towards you having a direct experience of something, and
Speaker 2: so you know the first thing is to know that,
Speaker 2: because until you know that you have that basic in
Speaker 2: Buddhism it would be called basic goodness, it might be
Speaker 2: easy to believe the lies of the inner critic. The
Speaker 2: second part of the answer I would say is, and
Speaker 2: this is a key distinction, is the inner critic attacks
Speaker 2: who you are as a person, your identity and your
Speaker 2: worthiness to take up space and belong. It is who
Speaker 2: you are, That's who the inner critic is talking about.
Speaker 2: Your inner discernment, your inner wisdom would actually point to
Speaker 2: behaviors or actions and how they could be more skillful.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't question your basic goodness as a human being, right,
Speaker 2: and so it can be useful to reflect on how
Speaker 2: we can be more skillful, or how we can act
Speaker 2: and show up in a way in this world that
Speaker 2: more closely aligns with our values, how we can be
Speaker 2: more kind, any number of things that's really important.
Speaker 3: Territory to content rose.
Speaker 2: But instead of I did something bad for lack of
Speaker 2: a better word, the inner critic would say I am bad.
Speaker 2: That is not helpful, untrue, and really keeps us wounded.
Speaker 4: Yeah, as you were saying that, it hit me that
Speaker 4: another key distinction is, or another way of thinking about that,
Speaker 4: is that the inner critic does not have a growth mindset. True, right, Like,
Speaker 4: if I'm examining my past behavior for ways that I
Speaker 4: could do it differently, inherently, there's a growth mindset. There's
Speaker 4: a belief in there that I can change. But to
Speaker 4: your point, the inner critic doesn't believe that we're going
Speaker 4: to do better, right. It actually thinks that that thing
Speaker 4: that you did is a reflection of who you are.
Speaker 4: It's the best you can do. That's what you are. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Whereas that internal conscience or that holding ourselves accountable or
Speaker 4: all that is inherently growth oriented.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good point, and you know, it
Speaker 2: makes me think about how the inner critic is not
Speaker 2: always holding you back in the world. Sometimes it's propelling
Speaker 2: you forward with such a frantic fear and fury that
Speaker 2: you're trying to overcompensate for some inner deficiency.
Speaker 3: And both are like you say, I love this term.
Speaker 2: It's running on dirty fuel that over time that causes
Speaker 2: an engine to collapse. Yeah, but both tell you that
Speaker 2: you're you're not good enough, you know, and you either
Speaker 2: have to overcompensate or you're not good enough, So why
Speaker 2: even try?
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: The other thing about the inner critic is it would
Speaker 2: have you believe that it's actually acting on your behalf.
Speaker 2: Like if you didn't have the inner critic, you would
Speaker 2: not get out of bed that day or if you
Speaker 2: didn't have the inner critic, you would not work as
Speaker 2: hard at your job, or you wouldn't ever hit the
Speaker 2: gym like you need to when in actuality, there are
Speaker 2: much better ways to motivate ourselves than shaming ourselves into
Speaker 2: doing something. And my background in education tells me, and
Speaker 2: I think personal experience might inform everybody that you know,
Speaker 2: you actually don't perform better in an environment where you
Speaker 2: don't feel safe. Right, If safety is in jeopardy in
Speaker 2: any level, you shut down. And so we cannot possibly
Speaker 2: realize our fullest potential if we're always stuck in a
Speaker 2: shamy kind of place. So that's another lie of the
Speaker 2: inner critic.
Speaker 4: So where does it come from? I mean, I know
Speaker 4: this is just a speculation, but yeah, you know, why
Speaker 4: do we have this?
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of theories.
Speaker 2: The most common quota that I've heard is that it
Speaker 2: does go back to Freud and the super ego. Right,
Speaker 2: this part of us when we're young that keeps us
Speaker 2: in line with our family of origin or any caregivers
Speaker 2: that we have, that helps us to act and behave
Speaker 2: and relate in such a way that we don't jeopardize
Speaker 2: the connections that give us care and love and food
Speaker 2: and shelter and all of these important things. And so
Speaker 2: that is the case up until about age eight, And
Speaker 2: at age eight, that part is pretty fully developed, and
Speaker 2: we begin to be able to operate in a more
Speaker 2: nuanced way with more wisdom and discernment. So we continue
Speaker 2: to grow, and we really outgrow the usefulness of this
Speaker 2: super ego, or this inner critic, so to speak. But
Speaker 2: this eight year old super ego continues to live on
Speaker 2: inside of our minds. It doesn't really evolve, but it
Speaker 2: continues to tell us and dictate what is good or
Speaker 2: bad about us, what's right and wrong about our inner
Speaker 2: world and outer world. And we end up being bossed
Speaker 2: around by a really bossy eight year old self, right,
Speaker 2: that doesn't have the adult wisdom to live and discern
Speaker 2: an adult life.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: It's a conditioning, it's a habit of mind that we
Speaker 2: really have to sort of wake up out of and
Speaker 2: begin to work skillfully with.
Speaker 4: So we'll move on from the inner critic in a minute.
Speaker 4: But you have actually produced some videos about working with
Speaker 4: the inner critic, where you've got a variety of strategies. Yeah,
Speaker 4: can you share one of them?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh man, how to pick one.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 2: So the first thing I would say is maybe going
Speaker 2: back to the power of naming something, It can be
Speaker 2: really helpful to sort of name your inner critics so
Speaker 2: that you begin to recognize it. Now, I'll say one
Speaker 2: more thing, because I would be remiss if I didn't
Speaker 2: describe this. I wish I had heard this long before
Speaker 2: I actually did, which is, the inner critic can show
Speaker 2: up as a voice and actual like we hear the
Speaker 2: words in our head. It can also up as more
Speaker 2: of an atmosphere. And that's how it shows up for me.
Speaker 2: So I needed to begin to recognize and name like
Speaker 2: this inner weather system, this inner atmosphere that felt really icky.
Speaker 2: It just felt dark and heavy, like I was wrong
Speaker 2: and something was wrong and just bad, you know. And
Speaker 2: so when I began to recognize that feeling as the
Speaker 2: inner critic showing up, then I began to learn how
Speaker 2: to work skillfully with that. But know that it can
Speaker 2: show up in a variety ways, right, But however it
Speaker 2: shows up for you, you can name it, And I mean,
Speaker 2: I encourage you to be playful with this, like, because
Speaker 2: humor is just a wonderful way to poke a pinhole
Speaker 2: and deflate things pretty quickly, and I wish I could
Speaker 2: have like a visual aid right now to show you,
Speaker 2: because the visual of this is funnier even than you
Speaker 2: can imagine. But for some reason, when I just like
Speaker 2: close my eyes and think of my inner critic, the
Speaker 2: image that I get is like the Wicked Witch from
Speaker 2: snow White from Disney snow White cartoon back the day,
Speaker 2: the old old one. And then I went and googled
Speaker 2: it just to get like, am I remembering her correctly?
Speaker 3: And like she is.
Speaker 2: Even more wretched, lecherous and just hilarious looking like as
Speaker 2: an archetype and caricature of like the Wicked Witch than
Speaker 2: I even remembered. But now that's who I think of
Speaker 2: when that part of me kind of comes up, and
Speaker 2: it helps.
Speaker 3: Me take it a little less seriously, and.
Speaker 2: It also helps me name it so that I can
Speaker 2: begin to work skillfully. But yeah, I put together this
Speaker 2: video series and you can get that free training at
Speaker 2: one ufeed dot net slash Inner Critic, and I plan on,
Speaker 2: you know, diving even deeper into this work in the
Speaker 2: future because it has been the primary pain point of
Speaker 2: my internal world in the last I don't know, in
Speaker 2: my adult life. Let's just say and I have come
Speaker 2: to realize for myself that you can live without it,
Speaker 2: that you don't have to have its oppressive tyranny tearing
Speaker 2: you down all the time, and it is wonderful. So
Speaker 2: I want to help other people like find their way
Speaker 2: to that way of being so that they have a
Speaker 2: fighting chance in this life of feeling into their true
Speaker 2: as full as selves free from that burden.
Speaker 4: So a big part of the inner critic work has
Speaker 4: emerged from the deep work you've done with mindfulness. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so let's talk about mindfulness. It's very much a buzzword, yeah,
Speaker 4: of course, And it's a buzzword that I sort of
Speaker 4: react to a little bit. But I don't think you do.
Speaker 4: I think its original and beautiful potential is still very
Speaker 4: alive in you tell me what.
Speaker 3: You love about it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh, how do I count the ways?
Speaker 2: So I love so much about it. What mindfulness is,
Speaker 2: as I know it now, is not as much an
Speaker 2: intellectual exercise of life. Like it's not about like cognitively
Speaker 2: intellectually knowing about something or letting your mind pay attention
Speaker 2: to things during your everyday life. I mean, that's a
Speaker 2: piece of it. To be able to be present with
Speaker 2: our minds, but even more so, it's about an embodied presence,
Speaker 2: an embodied awareness in and of the present moment, in
Speaker 2: and of our experience in the present moment, both inside
Speaker 2: of ourselves and also what's going on around us without judgment,
Speaker 2: right without the inner critic or really any kind of judgment,
Speaker 2: that allows us to open fully to what is, know
Speaker 2: it directly and clearly, experience it directly and clearly, and
Speaker 2: just to know the fullness of life in that way. Now,
Speaker 2: that's a little bit of a departure from the word
Speaker 2: mindfulness sounds very intellectual, and it's actually the opposite of
Speaker 2: that in the terms of like it's one thing to
Speaker 2: know or to think. We have stories about the world
Speaker 2: and stories about people, and stories about the way things are,
Speaker 2: and so often the stories that our minds sort of
Speaker 2: make up based on our conditioning of various sorts. It's
Speaker 2: not the truth of that thing, it's not the essence
Speaker 2: of that thing gets lost because it's obscured by our
Speaker 2: story and our conditioning, and so we can either miss
Speaker 2: out or we cause a lot of suffering, both for
Speaker 2: ourselves and others.
Speaker 3: And again back to kind.
Speaker 2: Of the beginning of the conversation when I said that,
Speaker 2: like my own aversion to feeling unpleasant and uncomfortable sensations
Speaker 2: and feelings and emotions has driven me a lot of
Speaker 2: my life. Well, now it's finally driven me to alleviate
Speaker 2: suffering in a way that is not an addiction, not
Speaker 2: a masking, not a running, but in a healing way,
Speaker 2: in a way that makes your whole right. And so
Speaker 2: I think I'm all about trying to suffer less myself,
Speaker 2: like cause less harm to myself and also less harm
Speaker 2: to other people. I don't want other people to suffer either,
Speaker 2: And mindfulness has proven for me to be the most
Speaker 2: skillful way to do those things. Realizing all of the
Speaker 2: ways that we create suffering for ourselves, I'm just like,
Speaker 2: show me those ways so I can stop that I
Speaker 2: don't want anymore. I mean, life is hard. Life is
Speaker 2: painful in and of itself. It just is, and it
Speaker 2: always will have moments of that. And I don't want
Speaker 2: to make it harder and more painful than it is. Right, So,
Speaker 2: if there are things I'm doing that are causing more
Speaker 2: pain and suffering and are keeping me from living fully
Speaker 2: and experiencing even the beauty and joy of life, and
Speaker 2: the fullness of who I can be. Let me figure
Speaker 2: those things out so I can be more skillful. It's
Speaker 2: ultimately me just being sort of pragmatic, practical and like
Speaker 2: really hating to suffer. Mindfulness also it's a really instructive
Speaker 2: way to show up in life, like in other words,
Speaker 2: in my past with previous like religions and churches and things,
Speaker 2: and not to paint them in any kind of negative picture,
Speaker 2: because I think everybody has to find where they fit
Speaker 2: and where they flourish. And it just wasn't there for
Speaker 2: me because I did not know how to do a
Speaker 2: lot of the things that the church told me were
Speaker 2: good things to do, or like how to stop doing
Speaker 2: the bad things that were causing me. I just I
Speaker 2: knew what maybe to do, but I didn't know how.
Speaker 2: Mindfulness has taught me the how, the how to be
Speaker 2: really skillful in life so that we suffer less. That's
Speaker 2: another thing I love about it. And finally, it's not
Speaker 2: about just have faith and believe and don't ask questions.
Speaker 2: It's all about ask the questions, bring curiosity and see
Speaker 2: for yourself in your direct experience, Like don't believe what
Speaker 2: anybody tells you, right like discover for yourself. It really
Speaker 2: points you towards your own experience.
Speaker 4: There is a critique these days of mindfulness. They call
Speaker 4: it make mindfulness right, where mindfulness has been pulled out
Speaker 4: of its original Buddhist container, you know, depending on how
Speaker 4: you want to frame it, it's been watered down, it's
Speaker 4: become a tool of the corporate patriarchy. It lots of
Speaker 4: different things. Yeah, and one of the criticisms is it
Speaker 4: has been divorced from what you were just talking about.
Speaker 4: That seems to be most apparent in a lot of churches,
Speaker 4: and in the church one of the things that's most apparent.
Speaker 4: And again I'm painting with a broad brush. Churches are different,
Speaker 4: but there's a big focus. We hear a lot about morality,
Speaker 4: but morality is pretty deeply baked into Buddhists thought too.
Speaker 4: So for you, how important is when learning mindfulness and
Speaker 4: using mindfulness to have other aspects of the tradition that
Speaker 4: came from baked into that approach or do you feel
Speaker 4: like it stands alone on its own pretty well and
Speaker 4: is a pretty powerful tool that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a good question.
Speaker 2: Actually, in the training program where I got my certification
Speaker 2: to be a mindfulness teacher. We were divided into pods
Speaker 2: of other students in groups small groups, and someone in
Speaker 2: that small group asked the question I think you're kind
Speaker 2: of asking, which is like, if we strip mindfulness of
Speaker 2: its Buddhist roots, is that kind of cultural appropriation?
Speaker 3: What are we doing here?
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to pretend to like say like
Speaker 2: I know the answer to this, but a couple of
Speaker 2: reflections I'll offer I was trained in a secular mindfulness practice,
Speaker 2: that you can practice these tools which are very skillful,
Speaker 2: and not have to like officially affiliate yourself with a
Speaker 2: Buddhist religion. Right, that there are universal truths that we
Speaker 2: can all recognize, Like in life, they're suffering, it's hard,
Speaker 2: things are impermanent, they're always changing.
Speaker 3: Right, there are certain truths.
Speaker 2: That we can all learn and then begin to practice
Speaker 2: out of in a skillful way that can make life
Speaker 2: easier and more full and.
Speaker 3: Better for us all.
Speaker 2: There are other traditions besides Buddhism that practice meditation and
Speaker 2: mindfulness under a different name. These principles are found in
Speaker 2: the works of a lot of teachers researchers, and so
Speaker 2: it is most often associated with Buddhism.
Speaker 3: Buddhism doesn't have the exclusive rights to it.
Speaker 2: At this point in my life, I do find myself
Speaker 2: most closely like relating to the Buddhist tradition in terms
Speaker 2: of Buddhist psychology and the way the Buddha taught for
Speaker 2: us to live so that we might suffer less and
Speaker 2: live more. But I don't think that's a requirement to
Speaker 2: be able to benefit from or practice these things, right.
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily a religious experience. It is a spiritual
Speaker 2: practice of being able to unburden ourselves from suffering and
Speaker 2: live more fully. I'm not sure if that speaks to
Speaker 2: your question, and I'm not even sure if I fully
Speaker 2: like have explored that terrain enough to come to a
Speaker 2: real definitive conclusion, but it's certainly a question to keep
Speaker 2: in the conversation.
Speaker 4: I just find it an interesting ones. Some people will
Speaker 4: be like, well, mindfulness is taught to soldiers to make
Speaker 4: them kill better. What do you do heavy, what do
Speaker 4: you do with that?
Speaker 3: Pretend to know that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's really just more philosophical discussion than it
Speaker 4: is anything. It's not real practical. So mindfulness is though,
Speaker 4: as well as being associated with the Buddhist tradition.
Speaker 2: Well, can I pause you actually really quick, because I
Speaker 2: will say that one orienting question around mindfulness is like
Speaker 2: becoming aware of in any given moment, like where does
Speaker 2: this lead?
Speaker 3: And do I want to go there?
Speaker 2: Realizing that our actions have impact, and that with every
Speaker 2: moment we are practicing ways to relate to ourselves in
Speaker 2: the world, your favorite world or neuroplasticity, right, But our
Speaker 2: ability for our brain fat I'm kidding, but the ability
Speaker 2: for our brains to form connections that then with repetition strengthen,
Speaker 2: And it's those connections in our brain that really take
Speaker 2: the way we see and experience the world and show
Speaker 2: up in the world. So in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: we are practicing these things in any given moment. So
Speaker 2: when we become aware of the impact that what we're
Speaker 2: doing is having, we can then begin to ask that
Speaker 2: question earlier and earlier on in the process, which is
Speaker 2: where is this leading and do I want to go there?
Speaker 2: And if I don't, let's reorient to where I do
Speaker 2: want to go. So, like to your point about soldiers killing,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know the answer to that, right,
Speaker 2: It's again kind of a philosophical situation and certainly not
Speaker 2: pro killing over here. I couldn't even kill the praying
Speaker 2: mantas in our apartment the other night. I had to
Speaker 2: like escort him out in a Mason Jarrard delicately, And
Speaker 2: I'm still afraid that he may have fallen too far
Speaker 2: and hurt himself. But anyway, I don't know, But I
Speaker 2: do know that we can bring awareness to things, and
Speaker 2: shining the light of awareness on something illuminates aspects of
Speaker 2: it that we kind of can't unsee once we've seen them.
Speaker 2: And once something is brought into the light of awareness,
Speaker 2: it just doesn't have the same power over us as
Speaker 2: it did before.
Speaker 3: So if anything, you.
Speaker 2: Know, err on the side of more rather than less awareness, right,
Speaker 2: And that's what mindfulness.
Speaker 3: Will help you do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think that's kind of where I come
Speaker 4: down on the whole topic too, is that being more aware,
Speaker 4: being more reflective is a positive thing. It doesn't matter
Speaker 4: where you get it, how you get it. We need
Speaker 4: more of it in the world, and you know, like,
Speaker 4: let's just get it out there. Nothing in the world
Speaker 4: is ever perfect, nothing is ever pure. It's just that's
Speaker 4: not the way things are. But you know, particularly in
Speaker 4: a culture that is driving us further and further away
Speaker 4: from any time in our own experience, any quiet time,
Speaker 4: any antidote to that seems positive to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's really true. I think so too.
Speaker 4: So mindfulness is often associated with Buddhism, it's also associated
Speaker 4: with meditation. Tell me the ways that they are linked
Speaker 4: and that they are not the same.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's certainly a ton of overlap. I
Speaker 2: look at meditation as a daily practice that helps me
Speaker 2: come back to the very simplest aspects of my direct experience,
Speaker 2: both inside myself and what's going on around me. That
Speaker 2: I can practice being in my body in a very
Speaker 2: somatic embodied way. I can ground myself there, I can
Speaker 2: practice noticing what's coming up and how I'm relating to
Speaker 2: it and finding a way to have that daily stillness.
Speaker 2: Practice is really the laboratory in the training ground and
Speaker 2: the practice field for a lot of the skills that
Speaker 2: we hope will grow out and become our default in
Speaker 2: the rest of our life. And so you know, it's
Speaker 2: not just about the insights you have like on the
Speaker 2: mat as you're meditating and the AHAs that will inevitably happen,
Speaker 2: but you're just sort of practicing the way to relate
Speaker 2: to things and connect with yourself and be grounded and
Speaker 2: present and who and where you are.
Speaker 3: That then allows us.
Speaker 2: To do more and more of that in a maybe
Speaker 2: unconscious way, in a mindfulness way, you know, during the
Speaker 2: rest of our lives. Now we can also have very
Speaker 2: meditative experiences that are off the map and in our
Speaker 2: lives and Buddhism that's talked about like you have a
Speaker 2: work practice or like karma yoga it's called, or you
Speaker 2: can take some sort of activity you do every day
Speaker 2: and do it mindfully, meaning like you're not thinking about
Speaker 2: the future, you're not ruminating on the pasture analyzing the present,
Speaker 2: and when you catch yourself doing that, you bring yourself
Speaker 2: back to your direct experience of that activity. You know
Speaker 2: what it feels like, what you're hearing, you know, the
Speaker 2: sensations that come with it, and being very present in
Speaker 2: that moment to the very smallest details of it, so
Speaker 2: that we aren't absent minded, but we are very present
Speaker 2: for that moment in our life. And again, as we
Speaker 2: practice these things, they do begin to grow in the
Speaker 2: rest of our lives. So meditation can be an active
Speaker 2: practice in the midst of your day. It can be
Speaker 2: a set aside practice that you do, you know, in
Speaker 2: the quiet of a place in your home, and it's
Speaker 2: also a way of living.
Speaker 4: So what would you say your definition of spirituality is?
Speaker 3: I love this question.
Speaker 2: So for me, spirituality is anything that simultaneously both draws
Speaker 2: me deeper into myself the depths of myself, and connects
Speaker 2: me with that which is larger than myself. So those
Speaker 2: moments feel spiritual to me. And that can be anything
Speaker 2: from you know, hearing poetry read that feels really deeply spiritual.
Speaker 2: You know, you're recognizing some aspect of yourself and also
Speaker 2: the universality of it. And it can be religious, but
Speaker 2: it's so not limited to that. Spirituality is and can
Speaker 2: be in any moment of connection with others and with
Speaker 2: ourselves and with the world. I mean, I feel that
Speaker 2: the arts are very spiritual because they tend to speak
Speaker 2: to the bigger pains and beauties of what it means
Speaker 2: to be human in a way that is broadening and
Speaker 2: not reductive. But yeah, that's spirituality for me.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm landing on right now. Anyway, It's my definition.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I happen to like your definition a great deal.
Speaker 3: Thanks.
Speaker 4: You're running a program called the well trained mind spiritual
Speaker 4: habits is taking the fall off. Folks. Sorry, if you
Speaker 4: plan on sign I hate to break it again.
Speaker 3: I have to wait till next year.
Speaker 4: I hate to break it to you over the airwaves.
Speaker 3: But the good news is but the.
Speaker 4: Good news is it'll run again in the spring. But
Speaker 4: the even better yeah is.
Speaker 2: Yeah that the well trained mind. I'm going to offer
Speaker 2: that again this fall, and I'm so excited about it.
Speaker 2: It was one of the most wonderful experiences to run
Speaker 2: that program this last time, and so to do it
Speaker 2: again feels really exciting to me. We essentially walk through
Speaker 2: the foundations of mindfulness and of mindful meditation. So I
Speaker 2: you've ever been interested in what that really means, how
Speaker 2: you actually do it. If you have wanted to start
Speaker 2: a meditation practice but just sort of have never gotten
Speaker 2: the traction, or maybe you're looking for a way to
Speaker 2: reinvigorate your own practice breathe some life back into it,
Speaker 2: all of those reasons would be great reasons to join
Speaker 2: me and everybody else in this program. Because another thing
Speaker 2: I love about mindfulness of these teachings is that though foundational,
Speaker 2: they are not elementary in the sense of like, oh,
Speaker 2: beginners learn that, and then everybody else goes on to
Speaker 2: learn something else, right, Like if you're advanced, you learn
Speaker 2: something else. These concepts are rich and deep, and depending
Speaker 2: on where you are in your life, when you meet
Speaker 2: them and encounter them for yourselves, they will mean something
Speaker 2: different for you. They will open up something.
Speaker 3: New for you.
Speaker 2: So even if you've been practicing for a while, it's
Speaker 2: a wonderful time to revisit the foundations of mindfulness at
Speaker 2: this place in your life. And so we do that
Speaker 2: in a group format, and it'll be live sessions, six
Speaker 2: of them, two hours each on Sundays, so six Sundays.
Speaker 2: And it's also really nice to connect with other people
Speaker 2: who are also seeking to learn and deepen themselves in
Speaker 2: kind of this unifying topic, this really deep and rich
Speaker 2: topic of mindfulness and mindful meditation. So that's another exciting
Speaker 2: part is to be able to like see those connections
Speaker 2: form in the group. We live in such a virtual
Speaker 2: world now that like, you don't need to live in
Speaker 2: the same neighborhood as your new closest friend. You know
Speaker 2: a friend who's been doing a virtual learning program and
Speaker 2: one of her best friends now is someone that she
Speaker 2: actually is not met in person. But that she talks
Speaker 2: with almost every day virtually, and she lives in another
Speaker 2: country you know than she does. But they would not
Speaker 2: have met if not for this program. So all of
Speaker 2: that's really exciting, and I invite people to see if
Speaker 2: it's for them and check it out.
Speaker 4: Well, you had a similar experience, I mean, I guess
Speaker 4: you met her, but she's primarily a virtual friend. Oh
Speaker 4: my friend, dear Anna. Yes, other side the world.
Speaker 2: Yes, she's on the other side of the world, but
Speaker 2: never far from my heart. I don't know what I
Speaker 2: would do if I had not met my dear friend Anna.
Speaker 2: And she'll be a friend for life now, I just
Speaker 2: know it. And we're connected through this deeper topic of mindfulness, right,
Speaker 2: So like we met over kind of like you and I.
Speaker 3: Like we met over a.
Speaker 2: Topic that feels really deep and important and like values driven,
Speaker 2: and those are deep roots for a relationship to take
Speaker 2: soil and take hold in.
Speaker 4: They certainly can be. Yeah, why do you call the
Speaker 4: program the well trained mind?
Speaker 2: That term I've come up across it a couple of times.
Speaker 2: Just this idea that the mind is a wonderful servant
Speaker 2: but a terrible master, I think is the quote.
Speaker 3: I can't remember who to attribute it to.
Speaker 2: But the idea of being like if left on its own,
Speaker 2: to run wild and free. Our minds are kind of
Speaker 2: a like chaotic bed of suffering to like exist in right,
Speaker 2: like we're all familiar like you just all you have
Speaker 2: to say is monkey mind and most people know what
Speaker 2: that feels like. Or if we believe our thoughts right
Speaker 2: all the time, then how much suffering can come from that?
Speaker 2: So when we have a mind that we aren't so
Speaker 2: enmeshed with, we can disentangle ourselves from and we can
Speaker 2: begin to practice ways of being and connecting with and
Speaker 2: orienting with the world. In this way, we are training
Speaker 2: our minds so that the world in which we live
Speaker 2: is less chaotic and suffering, and that you know, all
Speaker 2: of the things that a mind left to its own
Speaker 2: would read. So in this way we're learning to train
Speaker 2: the mind.
Speaker 3: We can do that.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. We can practice things like back to the parable.
Speaker 2: You know, we can choose the wolf we want to feed,
Speaker 2: We can choose the things we want to train.
Speaker 3: So let's learn to do that.
Speaker 4: Beautiful listeners from around the world have insisted that you
Speaker 4: now sing opera for us.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Rascal, I will not do it.
Speaker 3: I will not do it.
Speaker 2: Let's see if we hit how many people in the program,
Speaker 2: If we hit a hundred enrollies in the program, maybe
Speaker 2: I'll sing some opera.
Speaker 4: Well let's be clear, you can sing opera.
Speaker 3: And I can.
Speaker 2: I do it was like the thing that was my
Speaker 2: thing in high school. We skipped right over high school.
Speaker 2: There was so much more there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you dated a guy who wore a cape.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Look look it's nothing against cape, no nothing.
Speaker 3: They're very in Yeah, well maybe not for men. I
Speaker 3: don't really know.
Speaker 2: I mean, let's put you in a cape rizzo.
Speaker 4: You ever wear a cape? We're in a studio.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. That's the funniest story. I will say.
Speaker 2: Like, I grew up in a very conservative family, and
Speaker 2: I have this memory of this really crazy guy I dated,
Speaker 2: very theatrical guy. My dad's sitting in his recliner by
Speaker 2: a window, but which is by our back door. This
Speaker 2: guy comes to pick me up for a date, and
Speaker 2: he like comes like pretending to fly in towards the
Speaker 2: back door and runs up to the window where my
Speaker 2: dad is with his cape kind.
Speaker 4: Of flared out. It's like hello, and.
Speaker 2: My dad just turning around like barely reacting other than
Speaker 2: the look in his eyes like what in gods?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, that's my date.
Speaker 4: Your dad's pretty dead pan, and it explains why he
Speaker 4: is so happy to have me around.
Speaker 2: You and my dad do get along quite well. Oh
Speaker 2: I have so much where I want to say. Can
Speaker 2: I come back and do this again?
Speaker 4: Sure? Another time?
Speaker 2: Should we tell people where they can learn about I
Speaker 2: guess we should my program? Yes? So if you are
Speaker 2: interested in learning more about the Well Trained mind program
Speaker 2: and potentially signing up this fall, you can go to
Speaker 2: one ufeed dot net slash mindfulness again when you feed
Speaker 2: dot net slash mindfulness. We'll put the link in the
Speaker 2: show notes, right, Yeah, folks that are interested, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I invite you to come and check it out. I
Speaker 2: would of course love to connect with you there.
Speaker 4: All right, Well, miss Jinny, thank you, thanks babe.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.
Speaker 4: On.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was really really fun.
Speaker 2: Let's do it again, Okay, okay bye.
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