WEBVTT - Legally Brunette: Wrongfully Imprisoned w/ Kristine Bunch 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.520 Hi, guys, Welcome to an episode of Legally Brunette. I 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.879 will be your host today Emily Simpson with Shane. Today 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.520 we have a very special episode because we are going 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.640 to focus on a wrongful conviction. We are going to 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.919 interview Christine Bunch. So, Christine Bunch was a former client 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:23.480 of the Center of Wrongful Convictions and she spent seventeen 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:28.040 years behind bars in Indiana after being wrongfully convicted of 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:30.840 setting a fire that claimed the life of her three 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.360 year old son. And this happened back in nineteen ninety five. 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.080 Her path to freedom culminated in an exoneration driven by 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.159 the emergence of new scientific evidence and the discovery of 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:47.640 an altered lab report. Currently, Miss Bunch serves as the 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.479 director of the Indiana Innocence Project, where she utilizes her 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:57.360 extensive national experience and policy justice reform and exonery support. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.200 Her leadership extends to several prominent organizations. She is one 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.800 of five exoneries serving on the Innocence Network Executive Board 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:07.600 and as a member of the executive board for Life 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.280 After Justice. For over eleven years, Christine has been a 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:16.000 dedicated educator for the Illinois Innocence Project, teaching law enforcement 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.480 students and the general public regarding the systemic roots of 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.120 wrongful convictions. Christine has successfully recruited and organized dozens of 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.319 exoneries nationwide to share their experiences at law enforcement academies 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:32.360 with a focus on concrete strategies to prevent future injustices. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.880 Her advocacy also includes a personal commitment to helping female 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:42.120 exoneries access essential health screenings. All right, so we are 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.800 super excited to have Christine Bunch here today with us 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.000 on Legally Brunette. We're going to talk about her case, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.120 what happened back in nineteen ninety five, and then get 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.800 into how she was eventually exonerated. 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:55.680 Hi, Chrissy, how are you. 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:57.240 I'm okay, how are you? 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.080 I'm great. So I was going through your case. I 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.040 was reading a lot about it. I think the best 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.520 place to start because we haven't really told our listeners 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:10.000 anything about what happened back in nineteen ninety five. So 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:13.160 I'm sure you've shared this multitudes of times, but would 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.520 you mind just taking us back to June thirtieth of 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.800 nineteen ninety five and just giving us a little bit 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.399 of background on what happened that day. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.400 So it was a normal day, for me. I had 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.600 come home the night before from school, got my son 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.560 from the babysitter. Tony and I had went through our 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.040 normal evening routine and he had a lot of trouble. 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.320 Going to sleep, but it was really hot. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.480 It's the end of June, and he finally settled down 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.400 and I woke up early in the morning and my 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.920 first thought was, it's foggy in my house, and that 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.760 didn't really make sense. Then once I realized I was 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.400 seeing smoke, then you go into just sheer panic. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.320 You're trying to figure out where he is. He had 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:02.400 gotten up off. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.280 The couch and went into his bedroom, so I tried 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.919 to get in there, and there's fire in the doorway, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.800 and I quickly realized I'm not going to get in 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.120 that way, so I run out. I'm screaming for somebody 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.600 to come help me. I pick up his tricycle and 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:19.919 I busted out the window and I tried to climb 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:24.040 through and get him. I was unable to do so 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.000 because the neighbors told me out and told me know it, 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.720 I had to wait for law enforcement. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:32.119 When they got there. 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.160 I mean, I know it was quick, but when you're 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.880 in that moment, nobody could have arrived fast enough. In 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.800 my mind, they went in, they got my son out, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:44.800 and of course, as soon as I heard that they 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:48.040 had him, I was calm because I thought everything's going 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.800 to be all right, It's all going to be okay. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.120 It wasn't until I got to the hospital that I 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.960 found out he had died in the fire. And then 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:59.560 at that point you're just kind of in shock. You 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:05.800 just shut down, and it took, you know, a while 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.320 before I was able to come out up out of that. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.560 I don't think it happened until about two hours later 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.760 when the police detectives came in and told me that 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.200 it was an arson. It couldn't have been anything but 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.120 and of course at that point, all that grief turns 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:23.800 to anger because you're thinking, who could. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.359 Have done that? Why would they do that. 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.599 I didn't have any enemies, you know, I was a nobody. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.240 Nobody would want to come in and intentionally do this, 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.680 so I expected them to investigate and find out. Instead, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.920 they focused their investigations solely on me. And at that time, 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:45.600 I'd never had any. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:46.320 Trouble with the law. 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:49.520 I'd never dealt with law enforcement, so I had no 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.640 clue that I needed to be protecting myself as an 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:53.520 innocent person. 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.000 I talked to them. 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.760 Five days later, I was arrested and charged with murder 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:04.920 and arson. I went through trial. That was, you know, 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:11.680 a joke I think for most women, because we're represented 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.360 by men usually. And he told me, you know, don't 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.599 look too flashy because they already think you're a loose 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.680 party girl because you're a single mom and you aren't married. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.239 He said, don't cry because if you don't cry enough, 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.599 they're going to say you're faking. If you cry too much, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.560 they can say you're faking. He said, it's just better 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.120 if you don't react at all. He said, I think 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.880 we can talk to them about you being cold versus 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.400 you being an actress. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:44.920 And so I took his advice. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.839 I sat there, I didn't say anything, and I listened 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:52.200 to people talk about things that absolutely weren't true. That 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.560 there had been a chair shipped in the doorway of 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:56.760 his bedroom so that nobody could get in there to 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.039 rescue him. And then this atf chemist testified that he 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:07.920 had found accelerant in his bedroom. My jury took four hours. 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:09.080 They convicted me. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.159 I was sentenced to sixty years for murder, fifty years 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.919 for arson and sent to the Indiana Women's PRISM, which 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:23.240 is a maximum security facility in Indiana. It took probably 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.799 six years before I was able to get an attorney 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.359 to take a look at my case. Once she did, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.159 she told me she believed I was innocent. We just 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:39.760 had to fight it. So, being in prison, I didn't 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.200 have a lot of resources. I wrote to innocence networks 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.160 around the country. At that time, Indiana did not have 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.960 an innocence project, so I was writing to projects out 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.120 of state, hoping they would come in and help. It 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.800 took a while, but the Center on Wrongful Convictions at 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.640 Northwestern University. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.680 Came in that time. 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.680 I had educated myself on fire science, and I knew 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.120 without a doubt that I needed to see the ATF 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.600 report because in that report he had said to my 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.400 jury that it could have been one of three accelerants. 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.560 I knew that if he had really tested it, he 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.560 had narrowed it down to what accelerant it was. So 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.360 I shared all of that with the Nisons Project attorneys. 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.120 The first thing they did was get the ATF file, 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.960 where they discovered the report that had been presented to 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.520 my jury, and then they found an unaltered report that 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.560 said no accelerant had been found in my son's bedroom. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.720 I was literally dumbfounded when I was reading that that 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:48.200 there was first an original report written where he had 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.440 done the research and said that there was no accelerant used, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.560 and he gave that to the two investigators I don't 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.920 remember their names, and then they I don't know what happened, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:00.800 but I am assuming there was some times a conversation 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.480 amongst them where they said go. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.720 Back and redo it. 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.840 And then there was after the original report, then there 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.720 was an official report release where he said there was 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.080 an accelerant used. And the fact that there's these two 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.120 contradicting reports that are out there, and the fact that 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.720 they they met and conferred and came up with something 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.720 that was completely made up is a mind boggling to me. 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.280 The fact that they found that and that those two 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:36.040 documents existed that were contradictory to each other is then 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.040 that's mind boggling to me. What did you What were 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:40.839 your thoughts when you found out that they had actually 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.079 altered the report to make it look like there had 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:44.320 been an accelerant used. 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.439 I mean, at first your first thought is. 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.640 Anger, anger that anybody in a position of power could 0:08:55.679 --> 0:09:00.760 do that to someone anyone. I think that's the hardest 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:05.600 part about this is people in power can do things 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:09.880 like this to normal, everyday people. Once that anger subsided, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.800 I expected to go right back to court and get released. 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:14.319 It doesn't work like. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.520 That, right, So what was the next step? 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.360 Once they're the innocent Center's representing you, you come up, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.440 you have the evidence. Then how long did it take 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.840 to go through the court system until you were eventually exonerated? 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:32.560 So the attorneys came on in early two thousand and seven. 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.360 I went back to my original judge and prosecutor in 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.319 two thousand and nine, and they presented all the new evidence. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.280 A lot of that was fire science evidence, because the 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.319 things they had said to convict me were not true. 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:50.600 You know, there is no. 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.520 Indicator because there's a pattern on the floor that says 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.400 it's arson or an accident. 0:09:57.360 --> 0:09:59.720 That was something that was believed way back when. 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.679 Nowadays we have technology to prove that's not true. So 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.119 all this new evidence was presented and the altered report 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.840 my original judge and prosecutor took almost a year before 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.000 they said none of that information would have made a 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.720 difference to my jury. So then we had to appeal 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.520 the process that was granted. Most people don't realize they 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.720 pick one case out of one hundred to listen to. 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.480 So I was blessed they took my case, they listened 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.400 to it. Usually you get a quick response from the 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.679 appellate court. It took them almost a year before they 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.840 reversed my conviction and remanded me back for a new trial. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.880 And so I walked out of prison August twenty second 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.720 of twenty twelve. I had been in there seventeen years, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:58.439 three weeks and a few days. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.080 You were in prison for those seventeen years. You know, 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.640 first of all, I can't even imagine. I'm a mother, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.720 I can't fathom what you went through. Sorry, I'm getting 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.120 emotional about your story, Like I just can't imagine more 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.000 of a personal hell that someone could put me in. 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.760 Then to lose a child, and then to be blamed 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.000 for the death of that child, and then to be incarcerated, 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:26.960 and then I believe you were pregnant at the time 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.240 when you were incarcerated, is that correct? That's correct, and 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:34.240 your child was taken away. So now you've lost two children, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.200 You've been blamed for the murder of your son, and 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.719 you spent seventeen years in prison, and the fact that 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:47.200 you were so strong to make yourself educated, to learn 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.959 about fire science, to I mean, I don't know how 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.040 anyone could have stayed in the state of mind that 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.080 you were in, to be so powerful and to be 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.360 so I don't even know what the word is but wrong, 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.320 to get through each day and to make yourself I 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.199 read all kinds of things you were involved in, ministry, 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.040 you were involved in. What do you tell me what 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:07.520 were some of the things that you did in those 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:08.280 seventeen years? 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:09.600 You did so many things. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:14.280 Yes, so I got an associates and bachelor's degree from 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.640 Ball State University. I am a licensed cosmetologist, a certified paralegal, 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.480 and a certified Vet Tech dog groomer and dog trainer 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:28.559 because I trained dogs for nine years for physically and 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:30.720 developmentally handicapped children. 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.280 Do you think were those things that you were doing 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.160 and all those things that you dedicated yourself to in 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:36.800 the education? 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:38.880 Is that what helped you get through each day? 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.320 I assume that being able to try to be useful, 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.680 to be educated, to learn all these things, to train dogs, 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.200 to be involved in it. I would assume that those 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.320 things allowed you to wake up every day and to 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.640 continue on and to get through each day. 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.600 Yes, those helped. But when I gave birth to my 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.599 second son, Trent, and today is actually. 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.280 His birthday, Oh that's great. 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:08.720 My kid brother took him and so I saw him 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.000 as often as he could get him there. 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.600 And when he was younger that was every week. 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.120 As he got older, you know, it went more sporadically 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.840 because he had things to do. But just knowing that 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.400 I had their support, that they were out there pulling 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:29.920 for me, that was the drive always. With the education, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:35.000 it was a matter of I had felt so diminished 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.320 when I went through court that I knew I was 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.840 absolutely going to go in front of that judge again, 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.480 and I wanted to show him what kind of a 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:44.480 person I am. 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:45.840 Who I am. 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.920 I wasn't going to let him act like I was 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:54.040 an an educated twit because I was naive and listened 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.000 to my attorney and didn't say anything. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.800 Well, And I think it's also important that the listeners 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:01.480 know that when you went through your first trial in 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.560 June thirtieth of nineteen ninety five, I don't know if 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.360 we said this before, but you were only twenty one 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.120 years old at the time, which sounds like a baby. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.240 And I can't imagine grieving the loss of your son, 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.720 being blamed for it, and then having to sit through 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:19.800 court and having an attorney tell you what to do. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.520 I mean, no one in your position at twenty one 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.040 years old would have been anymore savvy at that time. So, 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.840 I mean it's so young, and so I don't know 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.680 how you can even wrap your brain around what was 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:35.520 going on at the time. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.120 You're still processing grief. 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:44.000 I'm sure, yes, and as a mother, you'll relate to this. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.880 It's something that doesn't it doesn't leave. 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:53.040 I mean, it's been thirty years since the fire happened 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.480 and I lost Tony, and there are still times that 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:03.000 I will wake up and. 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.400 It hits me all over again. Then he's not there. 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.520 Then I'm not going to get to see him, even 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.800 after all this time. It's an ache that will never 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:10.400 go away. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.680 Now, what's your relationship with Trent? Like, because I know 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.040 you missed out on was he born while you were 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:18.520 in prison? 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:20.200 He was okay? 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.160 And then how does that work? So you're pregnant when 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.280 you're in prison, you give birth and do they just 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:25.720 come and take the child away? 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.320 Yes, they give it to your whoever's designated to take 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.840 the baby. For some women, you know, it goes right 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.240 into the system and it's placed with foster care. So 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.160 I was lucky that I had family there to take him. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.280 And then of course I was also scared because I 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.480 don't get to see them put him in their arms 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.680 and know that he's okay and that he's with them. 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.600 So as soon as I was transferred back to the facility, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.360 my brother came over into the visiting room to let 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.200 me know that they had him and that he was okay. 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.640 Now I know you've also been an advocate for women's 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.200 healthcare in prison, because you went through a lot of things, 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.640 and can you expand on some of the issues that 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.560 you had and some of the healthcare issues. 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:20.280 Absolutely, So when I came home, I wanted to be 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:24.920 a mom again. That was, you know, high up on 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.640 my list of dreams that I wanted to have one 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:32.560 more time. So going in and trying to get pregnant 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.800 and discovering that, you know, I should have been having 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.720 path smears every year. That doesn't happen in prison. I 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:45.080 received one five weeks after I gave birth, and that 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:45.480 was it. 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:47.800 So there were a lot of. 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.360 Things that I hadn't been checked for I had never 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.760 had a mammogram when I came home, and here I am, 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.240 I'm trying to get pregnant, and I had to go 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.760 through all these tests, and then I had to figure 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:03.320 out what viruses had changed in the real world that 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.680 I hadn't been exposed to in prison. 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.600 And so you go through that whole process. 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:13.040 I went through fertility treatments for four years. At no 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.280 time did I realize that they could take my eggs 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:17.400 and freeze. 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:18.840 Them and I could wait a while. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.280 You know, I was forty when I came home, so 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.000 there's a rush on things. They never told me that 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:29.240 I didn't have to go through all that I could 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.879 get an egg donor and I could carry a baby. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.640 So there was nobody there to really tell me what 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.240 my options were. And all the tests they just scared me. 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.399 Because I'd went so long without health care. I thought, oh, okay, 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:45.600 it's because I'm healthy, and you know, they're not going 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.840 to They're not going to do these things. 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.760 I didn't know. I should have been having those regularly. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.880 I should have had a mammogram, I. 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.640 Should have been checked up on so to go through 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.520 that whole process, Plus I'm trying to rebuild my life, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.040 re enter society, connect with my child. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:05.440 It was just overwhelming. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:09.600 And now that I've went through all of that, you 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.720 know that threw me right into menopause. I used every 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:18.680 egg that I had, and so trying to figure out. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:19.600 What my body needs. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.080 Because while you're in there, you're not getting the best food, 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:26.200 You're not getting vitamins, you're not getting minerals. So now 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.200 I have a great doctor and she checks all the time, 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.119 what are my vitamin levels, what are my mineral levels? 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.960 Because as I get older, I don't have anything in reserve. 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.560 I have to keep taking supplements and make sure I 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:39.240 stay healthy. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.080 Did you ever end up having another child after leaving prison? 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:44.639 I did not. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:46.960 You did not, So but you do have a good 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:47.880 relationship with Trent. 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:52.399 Now we have a good relationship. I mean, it's you 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:57.320 can't ever go back and make up for that time, right, 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.520 And I think between the two of us, we felt 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:02.920 a lot of pressure to try to do that. 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:05.960 We did counseling together. 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.520 And just came to a point of we want to 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:14.240 get to know each other where we are now. And 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:21.600 I'm so passionate about wrongful convictions, especially when it involves women. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.960 I mean, there are less than four hundred women who 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.240 have been exonerated out of almost four thousand on the registry, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:35.080 And of those seventy percent, there are cases like mine. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.320 It was an accident and they made it look like 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:42.280 a crime, and these women lost loved ones. So I 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.920 knew how vulnerable women were, and I couldn't stop talking 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.199 about that. And for Trent, you know, when he sees me, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:55.920 I'm just his mom. When other people see me, I 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:01.120 am an advocate, I am a justice worker. And so 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.399 for him, he wants to separate himself. He wants to 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:08.240 just have his relationship with his mom and not be 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:17.960 involved in all the social justice advocacy. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:23.000 Did you ever receive any kind of acknowledgment or apology 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:31.159 from the investigators ever or prosecutors? Because I was in 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:33.399 my mind as I'm reading all about your case and 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.560 I'm processing it, I'm thinking to myself that you spent 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.040 what was it, sixteen years in prison, seventeen years in 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:45.320 prison for something that you did not do, and these 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:53.359 investigators manipulated information and evidence and then didn't have to 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.200 pay for it, didn't have to apologize, didn't have to 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.920 take accountability, didn't have to do anything. Yet you are 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:02.879 the one that had to give up seventeen years of 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:09.160 your life for doing nothing. And it's just I appreciate 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.200 the fact that you have that you're such an advocate, 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:13.879 that you have taken that because I would be so 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.080 angry and so mad, and I'm sure you are, but 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.199 that you've taken that anger and that and turned it 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:23.320 into something powerful, and so I appreciate that about you. 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:24.760 Well, thank you. 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:32.399 And so no one apologized. Ever, you come out and 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.159 you try to hold somebody accountable. The ATF chemist who 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.160 had falsified the report and testified to that falsified report 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.719 died a couple of months before I was released. So 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.040 there's no way to hold him accountable because I have 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.400 to prove that he changed that report with malicious intent. 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.440 I don't know how you go about proving that somebody 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:02.000 did something with malicious intent. In my mind, if somebody 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.240 did something wrong, they're supposed to be held accountable, right, 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:10.879 But we have protections in place, such as immunity, to 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.040 stop people from being held accountable for what they do. 0:22:14.880 --> 0:22:20.120 Now, there was also someone that testified falsely. Was there 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.439 someone involved in the fire department that they managed to 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.200 manipulate into testifying that you had put the chair into 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.240 the hallway in order to block the door so that 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.440 people couldn't save your son, and that was not true 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.360 at all exactly. Now, how did that come out? Did 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.080 he end up admitting that he had lied about that? 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:43.000 So now, when the attorneys got involved, they asked for 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:47.000 all the evidence in my case, and I'm one. 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:48.000 Of the fortunate ones. 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.200 They had all of my evidence intact, one of which 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.879 was a picture of the doorway of his bedroom. And 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:59.840 so if something burns, it leaves a mark on the floor, 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:03.920 you can see that it was protected by something. There 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.520 was no protected area in the doorway. 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.320