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Speaker 1: All right, I'm rap Wort Stereo podcast coming.

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Speaker 2: Live and direct from Tel Aviv Audio Studio has generously

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Speaker 2: opened the doors, open the coffee, the tea for my

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Speaker 2: first ever podcast on video in Israel. Very very very

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Speaker 2: very very grateful that you guys let me have the space.

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Speaker 2: Very grateful and excited about this podcast with someone who

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Speaker 2: I've mentioned on my podcast a few times.

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 2: Just found out in the last few months, to be honest,

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Speaker 2: because this has been a crazy, very educational time for me.

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Speaker 2: The fantastic doctor he not Wealth, and I have to

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Speaker 2: give a shout out because I met you learned about

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Speaker 2: you through the fantastic Strong Dance Signor who I love

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Speaker 2: his podcast, and I suggest everybody all everybody should listen

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Speaker 2: to dance podcasts call Me Back, which is where I

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Speaker 2: heard you for the first time. Doctor Yanott Wilf, who

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Speaker 2: is a writer who served in Kannesse, who is a

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Speaker 2: thought leading beast, and just I have found so inspiring

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Speaker 2: and informative to me and my.

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Speaker 1: Full court press education on.

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Speaker 2: All things Israel, going forward and going backwards. So I

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Speaker 2: really appreciate you joining me and how are you.

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Speaker 3: I'm okay, thank you, It's good to be here with you.

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Speaker 1: It's good to be here with you too.

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Speaker 2: Well, OK, I just want to jump into it because

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Speaker 2: we don't have so much time, and I have so

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Speaker 2: many questions for you, and like I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: off podcast, there's so much too.

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Speaker 1: Sort of share, and my goal is to share.

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Speaker 2: The things that I've learned with my people and hopefully

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Speaker 2: more people.

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Speaker 1: Will share it.

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're at such a crazy time and

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Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, for Jewish people, for Israeli people,

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Speaker 2: for Zionists, for people that.

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Speaker 1: Want to learn explore how we got here.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to share, and I think we

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Speaker 2: it is a full court press time, you know, especially

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Speaker 2: amongst us. So the first thing I'm gonna ask you is,

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Speaker 2: in real time, where we are today, what is keeping

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Speaker 2: you up at night about Israel, the state of Israel,

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Speaker 2: the future of Israel, or even yesterday in the comings

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Speaker 2: goings news of Israel, the UN did the I think

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Speaker 2: it's I'm learning that. I think it's all a bunch

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Speaker 2: of bullshit. You could curse if you want to. I

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Speaker 2: know you don't curse, you're a doctor.

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Speaker 1: But what is keeping you up?

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Speaker 2: What's most pressing right now today in your mind about Israel.

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Speaker 3: So I feel that something dark and sinister has been

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Speaker 3: unleashed into the world, and that it's going global. There's

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Speaker 3: almost a sense in which the world is closing in

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Speaker 3: on the main places where Jews live and prosper and thrive,

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Speaker 3: which is the state of Israel and especially the United States.

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Speaker 3: And especially when I look at it from a historical perspective,

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Speaker 3: I look at all the forces that have supported the

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Speaker 3: or let's say, hid behind their support for the Palestinian cause.

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Speaker 3: And I look whether it was the Nazis in the

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Speaker 3: thirties and forties that had a fruitful cooperation, or the

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Speaker 3: Pan Arabists in the fifties and sixties, or the Soviets

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Speaker 3: in the sixties and seventies and eighties, and then the Jihadists,

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Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, well, they all found themselves in the

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Speaker 3: dustbin of history because they were all failed ideologies that

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Speaker 3: were obsessed with Jews, whether under the guise of anti

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Speaker 3: Semitism or anti Zionism, and they used their support for

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Speaker 3: so called Palestinian rights to pursue that obsession. So on

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Speaker 3: the one hand, I say, okay, I have no doubt

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Speaker 3: that the current supporters, those who hide behind it, will

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Speaker 3: also find themselves in the dustbin of history. But then

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Speaker 3: I also remember that as they made their way to

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Speaker 3: the dustbin of history and the vortex of obsession with Jews,

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Speaker 3: they caused a lot of harm to the Jewish people.

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Speaker 3: We don't need to expand on the Nazis. The Pan

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Speaker 3: Arabists ethnically cleansed Jewish communities that existed before the rise

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Speaker 3: of Islam, before the conquests. Within a decade they were

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Speaker 3: all gone, from Morocco to Afghanistan, the Soviets. We knew

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Speaker 3: how the Soviets treated their Jews again under the guise

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Speaker 3: of anti Zionism. So that keeps me up a night.

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Speaker 3: That as the current wave of obsessive anti Zionism that

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Speaker 3: hides behind support for Palestinian rights, I have no doubt

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Speaker 3: it will end in the dustbin of history. But the

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Speaker 3: question is how much harm will it cost to us

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Speaker 3: In the interim you said it was I told you

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Speaker 3: it could be dark. I asked you if you're sure

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Speaker 3: that I wanted that you want to open it with that,

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Speaker 3: But you said yes.

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Speaker 2: So now you wrote this book in twenty twenty, which

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Speaker 2: I want.

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Speaker 1: To get to. This is not new to you.

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Speaker 2: Now have your thoughts, concerns, theories, education, Has it changed,

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Speaker 2: has it ignited more since October seventh.

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Speaker 3: It's all become more acute since October seventh. It's not paranoia,

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Speaker 3: if it's justified, right, It's fear that is based in

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Speaker 3: actual history, in an understanding that the world can whip

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Speaker 3: itself into an insane of vortex of madness. You know,

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Speaker 3: one of the main questions when Nazi Germany was gripped

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Speaker 3: by it, when the Arab world was gripped by it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, could the Arab world have created greater damage

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Speaker 3: to itself than ethnically cleansing its most loyal, most productive

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Speaker 3: citizens members Jews who have been there for millennia. And

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Speaker 3: yet societies do that, societies enter into a vortex of madness.

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Speaker 3: What are American camp is benefiting from becoming hostile places

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Speaker 3: to Jewish life? And the thing is that anti Zionists

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Speaker 3: always protest that it has nothing to do with Jews.

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Speaker 3: They love Jews, it's wonderful. And yet somehow, within a

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Speaker 3: few years of anti Zionism taking over those societies, from

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Speaker 3: the Arab world to the Soviet Union to American campuses,

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Speaker 3: they become hostile environments to Jewish life, and if it's

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Speaker 3: not fought against, then no Jews are left. So is

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Speaker 3: it what Harvard wants? It? Is it what Columbia wants? Rationally,

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Speaker 3: it's the stupidest thing, and yet they're doing it. So

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Speaker 3: can societies enter into a vortex of madness? We've seen it.

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Speaker 3: It's not paranoia.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get to the current and the college campuses,

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Speaker 2: and I want you to break down and explain the

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Speaker 2: Russian propaganda and the un zionism is racism seven and

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Speaker 2: how it's playing out. But I want to go backwards

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Speaker 2: and start from the sort of beginning. Yes, the racial

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Speaker 2: you know, ethnic cleansing all over social media. By the way,

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Speaker 2: for somebody who's you know, as educated as you do,

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Speaker 2: you find like, what is your take on social media?

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Speaker 2: Because it must to me even me, I'm like, this

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Speaker 2: is if people are fucking so fucking stupid?

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Speaker 1: Do you look at it? Because social media is now was.

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Speaker 2: Like the news, you know, and I know you're on there,

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Speaker 2: I retweet you, you share stuff, but do you read

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Speaker 2: other people stuff?

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Speaker 1: In like, what is your just take on social media

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Speaker 1: in general?

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Speaker 3: So there's nothing new in it in the sense of

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Speaker 3: the world going mad, And again that's where the historical

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Speaker 3: perspective comes in. We've seen the world go mad without television,

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Speaker 3: barely radio, So in that sense, I don't think social

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Speaker 3: media changes something. There is a fear on the manner

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Speaker 3: in which it's gone global. So for example, what I've

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Speaker 3: been following is the way that China is now inserting

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Speaker 3: into the bloodstream of chi the people of China anti

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Speaker 3: Semitic ideas. So for many years when there was this

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Speaker 3: moment and there were many Chinese delegations coming to Israel,

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Speaker 3: I gave them talks about Israel and Zionism, and they

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Speaker 3: were always like, just they didn't get it. As far

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Speaker 3: as they were concerned, the Jews were productive people who

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Speaker 3: have contributed to the world. They did not get the

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Speaker 3: webstern obsession with it. They've always looked at it as

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Speaker 3: a bit as a bizarre phenomena from Afar that they

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Speaker 3: did not share. They clearly did not have all the

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Speaker 3: theological baggage. And now, as part of their alliance with

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Speaker 3: Russia and Iran and their desire to bring down the

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Speaker 3: American led order, they suddenly got clued in into the

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Speaker 3: political value of disseminating anti Semitism as a basis for

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Speaker 3: creating alliances, political alliances. That was always the value. And

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking that's a billion and something people, and they

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Speaker 3: are now officially inserting that into kind of Chinese thinking,

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Speaker 3: something that was entirely foreign to them before that. So

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Speaker 3: that's something that is new and is happening via social media.

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Speaker 2: The War of Return, your book, the podcast that I've.

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Speaker 1: Heard you speak on. You know, ethnic cleansing.

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Speaker 2: These words are thrown around all the time, thousands and

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Speaker 2: thousands and thousands and times a day. Israel is being

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Speaker 2: accused of ethnically cleansing right now in Gaza. I guess

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Speaker 2: my first question is can you explain in the best way,

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Speaker 2: And I know, again it's a podcast, how Israel came

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Speaker 2: to be, the fighting, the war, and how the Palestinians,

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Speaker 2: the Arabs at the time left the land, the ancient

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Speaker 2: land of Judea, and the misconceptions. But I guess you

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Speaker 2: got to start with the facts first and then go

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Speaker 2: into the misconceptions.

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Speaker 3: So the best way to look at it is to

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Speaker 3: understand that the twentieth century essentially has one political arc.

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Speaker 3: We begin the twentieth century when much of the world

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Speaker 3: is divided between empires, and we end the twentieth century,

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Speaker 3: when much of the world is divided between states. When

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Speaker 3: those states are lucky, they are self determined nation states.

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Speaker 3: The people were able to fight for their self determination

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Speaker 3: and they have a certain sense of cohesion that comes

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Speaker 3: from a shared history and language and connection to land.

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Speaker 3: That's the idea of self determination. When unlucky, the empires

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Speaker 3: left just drew some borders through several ethnic and national

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Speaker 3: grips together and told them you're a state, and as

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Speaker 3: a result, those states have typically deteriorated to a combination

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Speaker 3: of civil wars and dictatorships, and then civil wars and

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Speaker 3: dictatorships to the present moment. This transition from empire to

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Speaker 3: states has been bloody. It came with noble ideals of

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Speaker 3: self determination, of the expansion of rights and democracy, and

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Speaker 3: it has done that. But it has also been hugely bloody,

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Speaker 3: meaning two world wars that brought the empires down, regional wars,

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Speaker 3: civil wars, and in the process of this transition of

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Speaker 3: empires disappearing, new borders being delineated, tens of millions of

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Speaker 3: people became refugees, fleeing across newly delineated borders, typically to

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Speaker 3: decide that it's more ethnically similar to them. And the

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Speaker 3: general message for those tens of millions of refugees was

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Speaker 3: it's tough, it's tragic, and you move on. There was

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Speaker 3: an understanding that this is the march of history. The

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Speaker 3: empires are gone, the states are newly established. These are

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Speaker 3: the borders. Yes, a lot of suffering and tragedy happened

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Speaker 3: in the process, but people move forward. And this is

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Speaker 3: how Germans and Bulgarians and Poles and Hindus and Muslims

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Speaker 3: and Jews all behaved. They moved on to build new

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Speaker 3: lives wherever they were. With the fall of the Ottoman

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Speaker 3: Empire one of those big empires, there was an understanding

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Speaker 3: that the peoples of the empires will ultimately govern themselves,

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Speaker 3: the Turks, the Armenians, the Kurds, the Arabs, and the Jews.

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Speaker 3: There was no question that the Jews are a people

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Speaker 3: a nation. There was no question that they have a

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Speaker 3: historical connection to the land of Israel. Now, so much

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Speaker 3: effort has been put into denying that, but you know,

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Speaker 3: one hundred and one hundred and fifty years ago, that

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Speaker 3: was like the most obvious and well acknowledged connections. And

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Speaker 3: that was the process and the Jews went into this

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Speaker 3: process of self determination of establishing their state. The Arabs

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Speaker 3: also received self determination via states like Jordan, Iraq, Syria,

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Speaker 3: and Lebanon, but they were opposed to the Jews having

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Speaker 3: their state.

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Speaker 1: Whose day the Arabs yes.

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Speaker 3: Broadly speaking, the Turks were also opposed to the Armenians

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Speaker 3: and the Kurds having a state, and they did what

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Speaker 3: they did to the Armenians, and they did what they

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Speaker 3: did to the Kurds, and they were successful. Turkey is

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Speaker 3: twice the size of what it was supposed to be.

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Speaker 3: Armenia ultimately became a state under the Soviet Union. In

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Speaker 3: a different context, the Kurds still don't have the state.

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Speaker 3: This could have been the fate of the Jews. Had

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Speaker 3: the Arabs been as successful as the Turks in preventing

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Speaker 3: Jewish self determination, this would have been our fate. But

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Speaker 3: they weren't successful. Despite real violent efforts, and they did

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Speaker 3: have some successes, terrible successes. They were able to prevent

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Speaker 3: the Jews from having their state in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 3: which is when the Jewish state was supposed to come

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Speaker 3: into being. That means that at the most dire time

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Speaker 3: for the Jewish people, the Jews who could have only

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Speaker 3: been ethnically cleansed out of Europe, the same thing that

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Speaker 3: happened in the Arab world twenty years later. Because there

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Speaker 3: was no state of Israel which was supposed to exist,

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Speaker 3: the Jews were essentially condemned to a genocide in Europe

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Speaker 3: rather than a mere ethnic lensing. And we know that

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Speaker 3: because twenty years later, when the Arab world engages in

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Speaker 3: the same process of ethnic lensing as the Europeans did,

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Speaker 3: there's a state of Israel to actually take in the

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Speaker 3: Jews from the Arab world. So the Arabs do everything

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Speaker 3: in their power to prevent the Jews from having a

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Speaker 3: state with again with some awful successes to their violent battle.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes people ask, but why this obsession with no

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Speaker 3: Jewish state? I think some of it has to do,

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Speaker 3: you know, just like the Turks with the Armenians and

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Speaker 3: the courage, just a sense that their dedominant power, why

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Speaker 3: should they yield anything to a tiny minority. But I

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Speaker 3: think the deeper reason has to do with the fact

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Speaker 3: that those are Jews, and that in the Arab understanding

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Speaker 3: of the proper order, for fourteen hundred years, they've only

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Speaker 3: known Jews as dispossessed, stateless, powerless, those people are going

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Speaker 3: to be their equals as people as a nation. That's unacceptable.

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Speaker 3: And the violence is very much a kind of this

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Speaker 3: deep violence that sends the message that says, go back

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Speaker 3: to where you belong, not just in the physical sense,

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Speaker 3: but in the sense of know your place. Your place

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Speaker 3: is lower in society. You do not get to be

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Speaker 3: our equals. You do not get to have a sovereign state.

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Speaker 3: You are just not the equals. And the Arabs during

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Speaker 3: the war against Israel's the independence against Israel coming into being,

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Speaker 3: make it very clear, they say the Arab leaders, the

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Speaker 3: head of the Arab League, which pretty much organized itself

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Speaker 3: around the principle of no Jewish state, he says, we

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Speaker 3: will not accept a Jewish state anywhere. It would be

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Speaker 3: shameful for us, It would be dishonorable for us to

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Speaker 3: accept it. We will go to war with you to

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Speaker 3: prevent it, he said. And if we succeed, then you

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Speaker 3: don't have your state. And if we fail, he says,

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Speaker 3: maybe in four hundred years will come to terms with

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Speaker 3: the existence of a Jewish state.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, we're going to keep coming exact

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Speaker 2: and keep coming yes, and keep coming, absolutely, and keep

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Speaker 2: coming and keep coming and keep coming.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and a few more of that yes.

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Speaker 1: Which is to me so insane.

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Speaker 2: To me, it's like sore losers, which it sounds stupid,

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Speaker 2: but it's like you didn't want them, you didn't want

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Speaker 2: Israel to exist. You attacked the day after Israel was

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Speaker 2: given a state. You lost, and it's like you never

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Speaker 2: process that loss and the obsession and the there isn't

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Speaker 2: a determination, but it's an obsession to keep coming, to

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Speaker 2: keep coming, to keep no matter fucking What.

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Speaker 1: Is absurd to me is that obsession.

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Speaker 2: Is that religious or is it like what you said,

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Speaker 2: It's just they do not deserve it, They are not

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Speaker 2: worthy of having a state.

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Speaker 3: So it all comes together. What you call religious or

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Speaker 3: what some people call religious, is essentially a system, a

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Speaker 3: social and theological and political system that placed the Jews

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Speaker 3: lower in the hierarchy. So that emerged from a certain

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Speaker 3: religious worldview, a social worldview, so of course it informs it.

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Speaker 3: There is both a theological, a political, a religious opposition

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Speaker 3: to accepting the Jews as an equal nation. Now what

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Speaker 3: you call, in many ways rightly so a sore losers

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Speaker 3: from their perspective, is entirely rational. They're basically view themselves

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Speaker 3: as victors in waiting. So another generation, another five generations,

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Speaker 3: however long it takes. They not irrationally they open a map.

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Speaker 3: They see right now now, the numbers are seven million

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Speaker 3: Jews struggling to maintain sovereignty among half a billion Arabs

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Speaker 3: still largely hostile to Jewish self determination, nearly two billion

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Speaker 3: muslim still mostly attached to the idea that Jewish self

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Speaker 3: determination is a humiliation to Islam. So they not irrationally say,

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Speaker 3: you know what, this is not going to last long.

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Speaker 3: One of the comparisons that is strong in the Arab

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Speaker 3: discourses of Israel to the Crusader State. This is why

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Speaker 3: Sinoir right now thinks of himself as Salahadin, the warrior

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Speaker 3: that defeated the Crusader state. They say, look, the Crusader

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Speaker 3: state lasted eighty eight years with Jerusalem, about two hundred

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Speaker 3: years without Jerusalem. So as far as they're concerned, another generation,

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Speaker 3: five generations, sooner or later, this aberration of Jewish self

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Speaker 3: de termination in their midst will go away. So they

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Speaker 3: don't even think of it as being sore losers. They

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Speaker 3: just think of it as victory. Delayed right aka sore loses.

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Speaker 2: But that's way out there because it's like, all right,

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Speaker 2: well we lost that one.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna keep coming.

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Speaker 2: Podcast.

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Speaker 1: The ethnic cleansing, the nineteen forty.

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Speaker 2: Eight the Arabs being removed from their land, the Arabs

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Speaker 2: being forced from their land, there's a war. Can you

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Speaker 2: explain that what happened?

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Speaker 1: Why?

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Speaker 2: How you know there was a war, people leave, people

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Speaker 2: were forced out, the breakdown of how that because that's

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Speaker 2: something you know, like that's a pinpoint that the Free Palestine.

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Speaker 1: People hang on to. Can can you explain like the sort.

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Speaker 2: Of dynamic of where Arabis were at that time and

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Speaker 2: how they left, why they wanted to come back, and

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Speaker 2: the historical context of that.

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Speaker 3: Certainly one of the reasons that in the book in English,

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Speaker 3: the book came out in Hebrew twenty eighteen, in English

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty. In the book in English, in the

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Speaker 3: first chapter about nineteen forty eight, we expanded it greatly

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Speaker 3: because what Adishwartz and I understood is that in the

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Speaker 3: Western imagination, nineteen forty eight looked like this. There was

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Speaker 3: a peaceful, prosperous, sovereign state of Palestine inhabited by peaceful,

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Speaker 3: jolly Arab farmers. And then came the evil invader ziness

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Speaker 3: that came with imperial backing, and already in nineteen forty

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Speaker 3: eight they had F sixteen's and tanks, and they just

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Speaker 3: went over the peaceful land of Palestine ethnically cleansing its

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Speaker 3: peaceful population. And that's how the state of Israel was established,

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Speaker 3: and that's why there are Arab Palestinian refugees. So I

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Speaker 3: don't think I'm caricaturing too much how people imagine it.

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Speaker 3: So A d and I understood that we need to

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Speaker 3: give people an actual sense of what war looks like,

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Speaker 3: and not just any war, an existential war in which

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Speaker 3: the Arab side made it very clear that its top

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Speaker 3: priority is first and foremost that the Jews will have

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Speaker 3: no independence, actually made it clear that their desire was

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Speaker 3: to ethnically cleanse the Jews from the land again, a

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Speaker 3: process which they immediately proceeded to do across the Arab world,

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Speaker 3: and because the Jews across the Arab world were defenseless,

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Speaker 3: they did it with essentially one hundred percent success. So

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Speaker 3: we felt that we needed to actually explain what happened.

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Speaker 3: So it's important to say there was a proposal that

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Speaker 3: would have allowed a Jewish state and an Arab state

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Speaker 3: to emerge. When the British left to live prosperously side

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Speaker 3: by side. We could have been celebrating seventy five years

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Speaker 3: of cooperation between two equal, prosperous states. But the Arab perspective,

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Speaker 3: and they clearly declared it. I mean, to their credit,

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Speaker 3: they were very open about their intentions in real time

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Speaker 3: that their top priority was first that the Jews will

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Speaker 3: not have a state. The Arabs much later, but first

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Speaker 3: the important thing was for the Jews not to have

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Speaker 3: a state, and they go to war. Now, in the

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Speaker 3: process of war, especially a war that lasted a year

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Speaker 3: and a half, a brutal war, an existential war, refugees

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Speaker 3: are created. This is why I gave the perspective of

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Speaker 3: the entire twentieth century. Initially, the vast majority are people

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Speaker 3: who flee. We see that in real time as soon

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Speaker 3: as there's war, especially people who are educated, people who

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Speaker 3: have opportunities, people who have other homes, other citizenships, they're

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Speaker 3: the first to leave. In fact, this is who left

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Speaker 3: first all the Arabs, our leadership, intelligentsia, Edward said, was

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Speaker 3: one of those families that basically had a home I

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Speaker 3: think in be Rude or Alexandria, they're the ones that

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Speaker 3: leave first, and they leave, and then as the war progresses,

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Speaker 3: as the war comes closer to people's homes, more people leave,

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Speaker 3: and as the war becomes more brutal, and we include

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Speaker 3: a lot of graphic details there so that people understand

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Speaker 3: that October seventh is part of a proud heritage of

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Speaker 3: Arab Palestinian what I call intimate brutality, the one that

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Speaker 3: it's Game of Thrones level. It's not just killing, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: it's not just going around. It's surreal brutality towards bodies,

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Speaker 3: body parts. And again we included and we consciously included

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Speaker 3: very graphic details so that people understand what the war

385
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Speaker 3: was actually like, how brutal it is. Again that there

386
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Speaker 3: was no kind of peaceful state of Palestine, that there

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Speaker 3: was ongoing, and again this is already twenty thirty years

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Speaker 3: of ongoing Arab brutality and massacres, and with the declared

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Speaker 3: purpose of ethnically cleansing the Jews and preventing their statehood

390
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Speaker 3: and independence, Jews became refugees in the process, completely ethnically

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Speaker 3: cleansed from the Jewish quarter of the Old City from

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Speaker 3: the West Bank from Gaza. Arabs ultimately fled to the

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Speaker 3: West Bank to the border Syria, Lebanon to Gaza, to Jordan.

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Speaker 3: The only difference, of course, is that tens of millions

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Speaker 3: of refugees, including the Jews, not just Jews ethnically cleansed

396
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: from Europe from the Arab war, from the West Bank,

397
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Speaker 3: from Gaza, from Jerusalem, they move on with their lives.

398
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Speaker 3: They proceed to move on and build their lives in

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Speaker 3: the newly established state of Israel, whereas the Arabs insist.

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Speaker 3: The Arab refugees themselves, those who will later be known

401
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: as Palestinians, and the Arab countries basically say the war's

402
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: not over. We refuse to accept that the war is over.

403
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: What you called sore losers and I call victory delayed.

404
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: And they say, we don't accept. Okay, right now, we're

405
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: pausing the battle, right, cease fire, always cease fires, but

406
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: we're pausing the battle. But the ongoing war against Jewish

407
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: sovereignty is not over. And one of the ways in

408
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Speaker 3: which we're going to ensure that this war is not

409
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 3: over is we're never going to settle the Arab refugees

410
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Speaker 3: and the Arab refugees will never agree to settle themselves

411
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Speaker 3: because they will continue the battle against the Jewish state.

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Speaker 3: So settling refugees in place was understood as the way

413
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: that you end the war. And precisely because the Arabs

414
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Speaker 3: refused to accept that the war was over, they refused

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Speaker 3: to settle.

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Speaker 2: Okay, can you explain the israel state is given it's

417
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: declared who is fighting on behalf of Israel?

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Speaker 1: Who are the Israeli soldiers?

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00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 3: Okay? So the Jews who are fighting are essentially the

420
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: Jews who have built the infrastructure of the state of Israel,

421
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: beginning already at the end of the nineteenth century the

422
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: early twentieth century, again kind of inspired by this idea

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Speaker 3: of Jewish self determination in their ancestral homeland known as Zionism.

424
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Speaker 3: As they encounter Arab violence, they begin to create their

425
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: own kind of militias fighting forces, especially against the Arab

426
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: violence of the nineteen thirties, the one that really closed

427
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: the gates of Jewish immigration and condemned Jews to genocide

428
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: in Europe. That's really when the fighting becomes most intense.

429
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Speaker 3: So these are mostly Jewish militias of the pre state time.

430
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Speaker 3: They are not supported by anyone from the outside in

431
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: nineteen forty seven, forty eight, when this is really the

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Speaker 3: battle for Jewish self determination and independence. They have nothing

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Speaker 3: to begin with. It's all kind of local made. No

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00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: one is supplying them, There's no empire behind them. These

435
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: are Jews that are either the ones that have been

436
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 3: there for the last several decades. It's Jews that are

437
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: coming from the displaced person's camps across Europe. Until Israel

438
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: declaire's independence, they can't really come. They are only able

439
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: to come again because the gates were closed. Even after

440
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: the Holocaust is known, the gates are still close to

441
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: Jewish immigration. They are placed in camps in Cyprus and

442
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: in other places. But once Britain leaves and the newly

443
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 3: declared Jewish state can open its gates to Jewish immigration,

444
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: more and more of the fighters are indeed Holocaust survivors

445
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: that come from the displaced.

446
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: Person's crazy yes, insane, you survived the Holocaust, yes, and

447
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: then boom, you're back.

448
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: On the front line completely.

449
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: And it's only then. I mean, people like to pretend

450
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: that Israel is this imperial entry, but of course Britain

451
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 3: made life hell for us, and they closed the Gates.

452
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 3: But the people who actually ultimately supply weapons to the

453
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 3: newly established state of Israel are the Soviets via Czechoslovakia

454
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: because they want Israel to help bring down the British

455
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 3: and French empires that are still very prominent in their

456
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: relations with Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. So they actually,

457
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: i must say, correctly understand Israel is an anti imperial

458
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: creation and support it with arms. America actually has an

459
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: arms embargo in Israel, so people should know that until

460
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: sixty seven, there is an American arms embargo on Israel.

461
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: People think America was always by Israel's.

462
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: Until nineteen sixty seven. I didn't know that.

463
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was the Soviets. And then when the

464
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: Soviets flipped and they realized that Israel was not going

465
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: to be some Soviet puppet in the region that Israel

466
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: is helped by France. And it's only after Israel's dramatic

467
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: victory in nineteen sixty seven with French weapons, then France

468
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 3: has an arms embargo in Israel because it fears for

469
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: its relations, and that's when America begins to support Israel,

470
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 3: and not before that's.

471
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: I didn't know that going back refugees un UNRA try

472
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: to explain in the most basic terms the refugee status

473
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: and the UNRA dastardliness of it, because for me, I

474
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: look at UNRA and this implementation of this refugee and

475
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,239
Speaker 2: this is our land and we're never like, we're not

476
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: settling here, the key, you know, symbol. The whole fucking

477
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: thing is insane to me because it's so fucking evil

478
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: and it's caused so much harm to the Arab slash

479
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: Palestinians and to the Jews, and I think to the

480
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: rest of the world.

481
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tragedy. Actually it's It didn't start with

482
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: bad intentions, it started with good intentions. The best way

483
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: for me to explain it is to look at another

484
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: organization that exists about the same time, called ANKRA. When

485
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: the k is for Korea, the idea of creating a

486
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: temporary mechanism that will settle refugees and close down as

487
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: soon as it's done was considered a good idea. So

488
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: there was a temporary mechanism created for the Arab refugees.

489
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 3: Initially it was going to be called Riwa or Nerwa,

490
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: and there was a temporary mechanism created for the Korean refugees.

491
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 3: And the number of Korean refugees is three point one million,

492
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: it's more than four times the number of the Arab refugees.

493
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: They settled the Korean refugees within a few short years

494
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: with a third of the budget that the Arab refugees got.

495
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: And look at South Korea today and there was no

496
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: return and no one was like sitting seething on the

497
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: newly created border, and like they just moved on. And again,

498
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 3: look at South Korea today. Could have been their world,

499
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 3: could have been the Palestines. It really we don't always

500
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: have alternative histories. This is a great example where we

501
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: have one. We can actually see what it looks like

502
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: when people moves on and builds a new life. But

503
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 3: the Arabs refuse that, so they actually attack this newly

504
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: created mechanism. They burned down the installations and there's a

505
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 3: lot of money that's there in order to help them

506
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: settle to build new lives in Gaza, which is occupied

507
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 3: by Egypt, in Jordan, in the West Bank, which is

508
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 3: a next to Jordan, in Syria and Lebanon, a lot

509
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: of good intentions. The people who work there initially are

510
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 3: the ones who did the New Deal in America, these

511
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: big projects that helped the nation build a new future.

512
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: That was the vision. It was a shiny, positive, optimistic

513
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: vision of building. Okay, but the hours basically say absolutely not.

514
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: We're still abst with no Jewish state. So what they

515
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 3: do is they do three things that plague us to

516
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: this day. First, they make sure that this organization is

517
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: called UNRA, that it has the letters UN because they

518
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: want to send the message that whoever's responsible there is

519
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: not them. They never take any responsibility for waging an

520
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: unnecessary war, for the refugees being the outcome of that war.

521
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 3: They reject any notion of responsibility. It's always on the world,

522
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: on the west. So they want it to be called

523
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: UNRA so that people actually think that the UN is responsible.

524
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: And this is a message we still get. Hamas is

525
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 3: not responsible for its the civilians of Goza. It's UNRA,

526
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 3: it's the UN. It's a long standing vision. The other

527
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 3: thing they do is they create a loophole because a

528
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 3: year after the creation of this temporary mechanism, which was

529
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: supposed to exist a year and a half, not seventy

530
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: five years.

531
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: Oh that's important. Yes, this thing was supposed to be

532
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: like a year and a half plan.

533
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like we're going to sort it out and

534
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: we're done.

535
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: We shut it down, and this is going to turn

536
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: into like a coffee shop or something.

537
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: No, it's actually gonna be closed, that's it, and the

538
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 3: Arabs will continue with their new prosperous lives and they'll

539
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 3: be South Korea exactly. So it's going to be a

540
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: year and a half, that's it, not seventy five years.

541
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 3: So they call it under. A year after this is established,

542
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: the UN actually creates the permanent organization called the UN

543
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: High Commissioner for Refugees to implement the Refugee Convention. Now,

544
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: the Refugee Convention wants to end the refugee status of

545
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 3: people in order for there to be no more war.

546
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 3: It doesn't prioritize people going home. If they can do

547
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 3: it after the war, great, but it's not a priority.

548
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 3: It's not a matter of justice. It's not a right.

549
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: If it can be done, great, if not. They try

550
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: to settle people in place or find them the citizenships

551
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: somewhere else, and whenever someone starts their new life where

552
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: wherever it is, they're happy. Now the Arabs understood very well.

553
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: They had a long term vision apropos this victory delayed.

554
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: They said, if the Arab refugees from the war will

555
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 3: be treated like all other refugees, not prioritizing this idea

556
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: of only going home, then within a few years there

557
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 3: will be no Arab refugees. So that's unacceptable because the

558
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 3: Arab refugees was the means of keeping the war ongoing.

559
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: So they created the loophole, and the loophole is stated

560
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: as such that the U and High Commissioner for Refugees

561
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: will handle all refugees in the world except those who

562
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: have an agency. And now the third thing that needed

563
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 3: to be done is to ensure that UNRA never closes,

564
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 3: because as long as NRA exists, then the Arabs have

565
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: another agency and they're not subject to the refugee treaties

566
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 3: and conventions that would not prioritize this. This Arab obsession

567
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: with return, which again was never an innocent idea. People

568
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: think that return was just like some desire to go

569
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 3: home or by now some nostalgia for a great grandparents home. Again,

570
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: we included very graphic, i think details in the book

571
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 3: of the Palestinian Arab vision of return, which was always

572
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 3: this brutal triumphalism over the Jewish state, and especially since

573
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: October seventh. I explained to people that October seventh was

574
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: the Palestinian vision of return, and this is why you

575
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 3: saw so much exhilaration on that day. You didn't see

576
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: our Palestinian exhilaration in two thousand and two thousand and

577
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 3: eight when they were proposed a state, because they didn't

578
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: want a state for themselves, as did Jews still have

579
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 3: a state, so there was no exhilaration. But October seventh

580
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 3: there was elation and exhilaration because for seventy five years,

581
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: that's what they've been groomed for, that's what they've been

582
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: hoped four. That's brutal triumph over Jewish bodies.

583
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: You know, I saw that forty eight minute footage. Did

584
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: you see it?

585
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 3: No, I can't bring myself.

586
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: You don't need to see it if you saw ten seconds.

587
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the things that I've been

588
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 2: really adamant about sharing what I saw was there was

589
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 2: no mention of nineteen forty eight, There was no mention

590
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: of returning, There was no the word Palestine wasn't mentioned,

591
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: the word Arabs wasn't mentioned. There was celebration exhilaration, happiness,

592
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 2: selfie videos, exhilarating phone calls to their mother, and just

593
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: what you said? And that forty eight minute footage is

594
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: it should be like I had a dream of, like

595
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: taking it on a bus in one of these rallies

596
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: in New York City and planting in front of there

597
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 2: so they could see it, because somehow, some way it's

598
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: been forgotten about since October seventh podcast. More in regards

599
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 2: to the refugee status, how does it end?

600
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: So once the Arab States and the air refugees are

601
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 3: able to create this loophole for UNRA, they essentially do

602
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: whatever they want because from that moment on they are

603
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 3: not subject to any international standards, so they can define

604
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: refugees however they want. They're not subject to international standards,

605
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: and as a result, they inflate the number of those

606
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 3: who are called refugees in a variety of ways. First

607
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 3: of all, by having a really bizarre definition of what

608
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 3: a refugee is, which is not the international definition that

609
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 3: already inflates the numbers by several hundreds of thousands. Then

610
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: by creating this automatic, ongoing, generation after generation refugee registration,

611
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: which again you can have a dependent refugee status under

612
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: the Refugee Convention, but it's not automatic, it's case by case,

613
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,919
Speaker 3: and of course it comes with ENRA. They also don't

614
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 3: try to settle any refugee. So the combination of not

615
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: settling anyone, defining it in a way that inflates the number,

616
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 3: doing it in a multi generational level. That's how you

617
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 3: get from several hundreds of thousands in nineteen forty nine

618
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: nineteen fifty to five point nine million today. But what

619
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 3: they do is they maintain the image in your mind

620
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 3: of what a refugee is. Right when you hear the

621
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 3: word refugee, you think someone who just escaped war, you know,

622
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 3: living in a tent and all that. You do not

623
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: think of a thirty year old middle class lawyer living

624
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 3: in Romala. You do not think of a Jordanian wealthy

625
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 3: businessman with Jordanian citizenship flying every other week to Dubai

626
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: to conduct business. But actually, the vast majority of the

627
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: millions that are registered by UNRA, they're not officially refugees.

628
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 3: They're called UNRA registered refugees because again it's this loophole,

629
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 3: it's this ex territory. So the vast majority of them,

630
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 3: I calculated about ninety five percent would not qualify for

631
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: refugee status by any international standard because either they are

632
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 3: citizens of Jordan, they live in the West Bank and

633
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: Gaza under Palestinian rule. They're not refugees from Palestine. They've

634
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 3: been born there in Surrey and Lebanon. Many have already left.

635
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: My favorite refugee, of course, is the multimillionaire American citizen

636
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 3: father of supermodels Gigi and Bella Hradid. It's not what

637
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: you think of when you think of as a refugee,

638
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: but because Honra never takes anyone off their books. So

639
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 3: even if they are settled by any international measure, you

640
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: and HCR would say, wonderful, Mohammed Radid, we love it.

641
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 3: You have American citizenship. This is great. We kind of

642
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: we take you off our roster. But Anra doesn't bother.

643
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 3: They're like, we don't follow, we don't check where as

644
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 3: he was born, he was listed, and we don't care

645
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 3: if he built new lines. Because you asked how this ends,

646
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 3: so from the Arab Palestinian perspective, this ends in only

647
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 3: one way, going back to sore losers with the non

648
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: existence of the Jewish state, that's the only way that

649
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 3: it ends that is baked into the existence of HONRA.

650
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: People sometimes, especially UNRA, like to say, oh, no, we're

651
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 3: just providing services until a political resolution is found. But

652
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 3: this is inverting cause and effect, because as long as

653
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 3: NRA exists, there will never be a political resolution short

654
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 3: of Israel's non existence. I just took a photo of

655
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 3: a big sign in a refugee camp, which again is

656
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: not a refugee camp, neighborhood in the West Bank under

657
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 3: the Palestinian authority right, which so many states recognize as Palestine.

658
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 3: So and no one ever bothers to ask, why are

659
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: people born in Palestine living in Palestine? A registered does

660
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: refugees from Palestine. But they give you the answer because

661
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 3: there's a huge sign at the entrance that says UNRA

662
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 3: services are right until return, a play on the right

663
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 3: of return, which again is no right and no return.

664
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: But they're basically saying, you world, you the West, you

665
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: owe us, You need to pay our education, services are

666
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 3: healthcare everything until return, and again I go back. Return

667
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: is not an innocent idea. It was always the means,

668
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 3: the mechanism by which the Jewish state is undone. So

669
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: one way it ends in the ARA Palestinian vision is

670
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: with the undoing of the Jewish state. The other way,

671
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 3: the one that I'm trying to promote, is the one

672
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 3: where UNRA is defunded and disbanded, when the Palestinians finally

673
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: end this tragedy of mobilizing their entire people skills knowledge

674
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 3: to the destruction of the Jewish state and actually develop

675
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 3: a positive vision of living next to the Jewish state

676
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: rather than instead of it. I think this is the

677
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: far more humane, less tragic vision, but it requires letting

678
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 3: go of a century long obsession with putting the Jews

679
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 3: back in their place.

680
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: I wanted you to explain to my listeners because I'm

681
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 2: afraid some of them will think, oh, this right wing

682
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: zionist kook. Explain how your evolution from you were lefty,

683
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: free thinking. When I say sort of almost hippie issue,

684
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: it sounds like when you were younger, open minded to

685
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: peace and thinking that land for peace would get us there.

686
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: Could you just walk me through that and walk the

687
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: listeners do I know it? But I just want to

688
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: like sort of stamp that.

689
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: So. I grew up in Jerusalem, and I grew up

690
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 3: in this political social environment where everybody voted for the

691
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: Labor Party. As soon as I was old enough to vote,

692
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 3: I voted for Rabine, then I voted for Barack. And

693
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: at that time the Labor Party was moving away from

694
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 3: socialism to increasingly the becoming the party associated with peacemaking,

695
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 3: and the idea for peace at the time was based

696
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 3: on a very simple and compelling formula of land for peace,

697
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: what you mentioned, and the idea was we talked about

698
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 3: how Israel is born. It's Arab neighbors invade, they're trying

699
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: to prevent Israel from existing, and after a year and

700
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: a half they agree to cease fire, right, but they

701
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: don't agree to peace. So Israel is born without any

702
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: country around it willing to make peace with it, precisely

703
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 3: because from their perspective, they're just gonna wait, and they're

704
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 3: going to keep going and keep going. And when they

705
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: keep going, especially in nineteen sixty seven, they fail even

706
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 3: more spectacularly, and Israel basically comes into possession within six

707
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: days of the goal on heights in the north from Syria,

708
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 3: the Sinai Peninsula, and the south from Egypt and Gaza,

709
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 3: and the West Bank from Egypt and Jordan. And now

710
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 3: that Israel has all this territory. The thinking is, Okay,

711
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 3: the Arab world will finally understand that, you know, we

712
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: are not the crusader state, We're not the French in Algeria.

713
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: There's no getting rid of us by force because we're

714
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 3: actually home. We're not foreigners, We're actually home. That's the

715
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 3: biggest kind of mind twist. They think of us as foreigners,

716
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 3: so they try to push us out as if we're foreigners,

717
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 3: but we keep on signaling to them that we're actually

718
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 3: home and we fight for it because it's our home.

719
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 3: So the thinking was, okay, now the Arab world will

720
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: finally understand that there's no defeating Israel by force, and

721
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 3: they will sue for peace rather than ongoing ceasefires. And

722
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: Israel also now has land with which it can negotiate

723
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 3: for peace, and already think that in other places in

724
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 3: history the losers have to sue for peace, but always

725
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 3: the notions that Israel has to also beg for peace,

726
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: so Israel has to give those territories. But again Israelis

727
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 3: were increasingly inclined to say, if the our world will

728
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: make peace with us, fine, we'll hand over this land.

729
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 3: This is the basis for the peace agreement with Egypt. Again.

730
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 3: We can talk about how nice Egypt has been about

731
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: on its side of the peace, but we give back

732
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 3: the Sinai Peninsula to the last square inch, and we

733
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 3: get an official peace agreement. And the nineteen nineties is

734
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 3: really the heyday of this land for peace. We negotiate

735
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 3: with Surrey over the goal on Heights. We sign another

736
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 3: peace agreement with Jordan when Jordan gives up its territorial

737
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 3: claim to the West Bank, which it previously annexed. And

738
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 3: the highlight, of course is the direct negotiation with the

739
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 3: Palestine Liberation Organization over the future of the West Bank

740
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 3: and Gaza. And A'm euphoric, as I said, I vote

741
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 3: for Rabin, I vote for Barak. I'm like, just take

742
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 3: the West Bank, take Gaza, let's get out of there,

743
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: and let's finally be left in peace, like just leave

744
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 3: us to like mind our business. And I follow with

745
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 3: eagerness as Barak goes to Camp David. This is where,

746
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 3: you know, this is where peace was negotiated with Egypt.

747
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 3: So we think, wow, another one, and he offers a

748
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: fully sovereign state of Palestine, no settlements, ending the occupation

749
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: capital in East Jerusalem, including holy sites, the Muslim quarter,

750
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: the Temple mount and we're thinking, oh my god, everything

751
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 3: that the Palestinians have been fighting for, this is why

752
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 3: they've been fighting us, because of the occupation, because of

753
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 3: the settlements. They'll finally we're ending that and we'll have peace.

754
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,280
Speaker 3: And I watch Arafat walk away from that in two thousand,

755
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 3: I watch Abumas and walk away from that. In two

756
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 3: thousand and eight, they walk away from that. They're not

757
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 3: criticized by their people from walking away from that. As

758
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 3: I said, there's no exhilaration. Oh we have a part,

759
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: we have a state, let's get it. They follow it

760
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 3: up with murderous, brutal mass occurs misnamed the Second Intifada.

761
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 3: You know, today people in the streets of New York

762
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 3: and London are trying to pretend that Intifada is this

763
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 3: gentle shaking off, so globalize the Intifada? Is this really

764
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: innocent idea?

765
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: Explain before I don't want to interrupt, but to explain

766
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: the reality. You're your Israeli person, explain the reality of

767
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: what an intifada is.

768
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 3: So especially the Second Intifada in the years two thousand

769
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 3: and one, two three four was a three to four

770
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 3: year brutal campaign of mass occurs mostly by means of

771
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 3: suicide bombers in cafes, in buses, in hotels. Before October seventh,

772
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 3: I remember that as the darkest time to live in Israel.

773
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 3: There was this palpable sense of that merely by leaving

774
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 3: your home, you were playing Russian Roulette with your life.

775
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 3: A song from the time by judapoly Ko basically says

776
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 3: Who's next, Who's next? That was the refrain, that was

777
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: the feeling like who's going to die next? And again

778
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 3: these are families going out for pizza, people sitting in

779
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 3: a cafe. So we know that an intifada is brutal

780
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 3: massacre of citizens in our streets. So when people say

781
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 3: globalize the Intifada, we find it very hard to assume

782
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 3: it's an innocent idea.

783
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:22,919
Speaker 1: I have to cutting a short.

784
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: The one thing that I want you to do, but

785
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: take your time, even if we go a little bit over,

786
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: is doctor Nott Wilf is in.

787
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 1: Control of Gaza today. Yes, how do we fix it?

788
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: Once we understand that the conflict has always been about

789
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 3: one thing, the total Arab rejection of a Jewish state

790
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 3: in any borders, then we begin to understand that this

791
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: is what needs to change. What needs to change is

792
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: the Arab and especially Palestinian total rejection of Jewish state

793
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 3: in any borders, because that's the ideology, especially as it

794
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 3: is funded and sustained by organization like Andra that keeps

795
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 3: ensuring that there are more terrorists, more murderers trying to

796
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: realize that vision. So the vision has to change. So

797
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 3: one idea that I had. There are others, but the

798
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 3: idea was to essentially divide Gaza in to the south

799
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 3: and the north. The south will be essentially the zone

800
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 3: of war, it will have a border with Egypt, will

801
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 3: not be supplied by Israel, they can be supplied by Egypt.

802
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 3: And basically the message will be anyone who continues to

803
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 3: believe that there should be no Jewish state and wants

804
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 3: to continue to commit to war until they achieve that

805
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 3: vision will be there and the northern part will be

806
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 3: the zone of peace and reconstruction and hope. And anyone

807
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 3: who wants to live next to the Jewish state that

808
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 3: does not claim a non existent right of return, who

809
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 3: understands that they're not a refugee, that actually wants to

810
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: build Gaza to be prosperous next to the Jewish State

811
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 3: of Israel rather than instead of it. They should be

812
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 3: allowed in, they should be supported, and they should be

813
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 3: allowed to form the beginning of a more positive and

814
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 3: less tragic future. But I think people should be given

815
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 3: the choice. You want to continue this ideology of no

816
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 3: Jewish state, you believe that the very existence of a

817
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 3: Jewish state is unacceptable, and you're willing to devote all

818
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 3: your resources to that. Fine, We definitely should not be

819
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 3: the ones supplying it or supporting it, but you do you.

820
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 3: But if you really want to have a different future,

821
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 3: then there should be a place for you where you

822
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: are protected and supported and sustained and can finally build

823
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 3: a different future.

824
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: How do you separate?

825
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 2: How do you prove that you're not going up to

826
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 2: the north to you.

827
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: Know, cause a ruckus.

828
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: So one of the most important aspects to understand, and

829
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 3: I learned it when I was intelligence, is that Arabs

830
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 3: and Palestinians, what they say publicly is what matters. That's

831
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 3: the real ideology. So I would put a few conditions

832
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 3: on going up north. The first is that people have

833
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 3: been taken off of Andra's rosters as refugees, so they've

834
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 3: been delisted. Then they can go now, and I believe

835
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 3: that they should personally announce publicly on video and written statement,

836
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 3: that they are going north for the purpose of building

837
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: a state of Palestine next to the Jewish state of Israel.

838
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: They have no desire to liberate Palestine from the river

839
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: to the sea. They have no desire for this idea

840
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 3: of return. They just want to build something for themselves

841
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 3: rather than to destroy for us. When people say that publicly,

842
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 3: in my experience on this issue, Palestinians never ever lie.

843
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 3: They find different phrases that say justice or rights, but

844
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 3: when they're asked to be specific, they never lie. They

845
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 3: lie about other things, from genocide to starvation to open

846
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 3: air prison and whenever one lie is exposed, they replace

847
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 3: it with a new one. But on their goal, on

848
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 3: the fact that they are opposed to a Jewish state,

849
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 3: that this is the core of their identity, they don't lie, all.

850
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: Right, Doctor inot Wolf.

851
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 2: I can't implore my listeners to follow her to read

852
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: this book.

853
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:38,359
Speaker 1: If I could read it and I can.

854
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: Get through it and I can understand it, anybody can,

855
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 2: I can talk to you so much more.

856
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 1: I appreciate your time.

857
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: I have been, like I said, so inspired by listening

858
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: to and you know, reading your stuff and I appreciate

859
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 2: you coming on the Iron Rapport stereo podcast.

860
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for all that you do.

861
00:56:55,360 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: Oh, come on, thank you. S