WEBVTT - The Forbidden Void: Cases Against Space 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.120 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. From housetop Work 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:15.640 Dot Cargo. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:18.000 My name is Robert lamp and I am Christian Sagar. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:19.880 We're going to kick off here with a quote from 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.200 the late great Carl Sagan sort of set the tone 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:28.280 for this episode. We were wanderers from the beginning, from 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.519 nine percent of the tenure of humans on Earth, we 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:37.080 were hunters and foragers, wandering on the savannahs and the steps. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.800 Even after four hundred generations in villages and cities, we 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.760 still remember. The open road still calls like an almost 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.040 forgotten song of childhood. We invest far off places with 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.880 a certain romance. The appeal I suspect has been meticulously 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.840 crafted by natural selection as an essential element in our 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.080 long term survival. That was a a lark, Carl Sagan. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.720 I'm all right, like I said, I think uh, I 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.960 think Chuck has the best one in the house. Toufforts. Yeah, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.039 I like that. I was. I was sitting here giggling 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.160 the whole time, tracking not to laugh into the microphone. 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.640 So that's an appropriate quote for us to start this 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.800 episode with, because we are going to be talking today 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:25.880 about all well, not all, but various anti space exploration movements, 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:31.280 whether they be religious, political, economic, Uh, there's there's a 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.119 largic Yeah, yeah, it turns out there's quite a bit 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:37.320 of them. And uh, you know, I don't think we'd 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.160 classify Carl Sagan as being among them, obviously, no, but 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.520 he kind of sets the stage I think by like that. 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.480 That's a quote from him that kind of captures the 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.680 overall optimism for space and enthusiasm for space that you know, 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:51.440 I want to definitely get out there for my own part, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.640 I'm I am definitely a space optimist of space enthusiast. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:59.040 I think there are several key arguments for space exploration 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.640 and our investment in space exploration. I mean, namely, uh, 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.920 you know, pushing the technology, ensuring the long term survival 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.440 of the human race, and giving us the ability to 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.080 even protect the planet like in the in movies. As 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.280 I've said before, saving the world is an everyday occurrence 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.760 for hero but to actually save the world, our ability 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:25.119 to protect the planet from near Earth objects, from meteorites, comments, etcetera, 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.440 like that is as close as we can realistically get 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.960 to saving the planet in a short term, tangible way 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.960 against mass extinction. I think if you had asked me 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.440 before we did all the research for this episode, I 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:44.800 would have said something similar. And now I'm on the fence. Uh. And, 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.920 which is sad to me because in personal anecdote, like 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.360 I grew up as a little kid, I wanted to 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.440 be an astronaut. That was like my thing as a 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:54.600 long kid, and my parents bought me all those books 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:58.360 of like you know, those like giant like uh um 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.440 fold up books of like the interior of the Space 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.040 Shuttle looks like, or like how to become an astronaut, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.200 stuff like that. Uh. And I remember very specifically being 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:14.040 a kindergartener in the classroom. I was in New Hampshire 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.000 at the time when the Challenger exploded, and Christie mcculloff 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.880 was a New Hampshire teacher that was aboard the Challenger, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.680 and so at the time it was you know, a 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.840 really big deal is super upsetting, and but I was 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.520 still like so into the whole astronaut thing. Uh. And 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.800 now look at me now, I you know, I talked 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.360 about science on podcasts and write horror stories about demons. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.400 I I don't know if I ever achieved my dreams. 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.160 You're rarely go into space at all. No, No, it's 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.400 it's few and far between. I got to talk to 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.880 uh Elon Musk and Richard Branson about that, but yeah, 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.400 I don't know, Like reading all of this information, I 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.440 got to say, there are some compelling arguments against it too, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.280 I would agree. And you know, I think the important 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.200 thing about this because some of you might be listening 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.160 and you're you're thinking, you're like me, You're like, oh, 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.080 I'm I'm already one board space question and I'm not 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.960 really interested in the counter arguments. But I think it's 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:12.240 it's healthy to explore the arguments against the things that 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.120 we value, because hey, that gives you a chance to, 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:18.320 you know, hold on a little tighter, do the things 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.960 you do believe in, question the things you believe in, 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.560 and you know, maybe end up with a more balanced perspective. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.640 I agree, And after you know, going through this and 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:28.400 what we're going to present to you today, I can 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:33.479 tell you that they're there are definitely like like weak 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.039 points in the armor of both of the arguments that 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.080 sort of make you go, okay, like maybe we could 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.440 refine this here. They're like, let's let's really nail down 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.800 why we're going into space and then like for some 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.120 of the arguments against it too, like they need to 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.400 be refined as well. You know, it's a little a 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:55.000 little loose sometimes, especially like so the one that really 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.240 got us got the ball rolling for us on this 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.359 was an article that we're going to talk about at 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.480 the end of the podcast that is called the Manifesto 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:08.520 from the Committee to Abolish Outer Space. And it reads 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:13.840 like a total like farcical, dadist sort of I don't know, 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:20.840 anti capitalist manifesto sort of joke from the nineteen seventies, right, Um, 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.200 but there is some like if you read real deeply 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.920 on it, there is some logic between the lines. But yeah, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.719 you know, I thought it was worth reading through to 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.480 promote discussion. Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's why this is 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.600 ultimately all about. We're we're gonna provide you with some arguments. 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.080 You take those, combine them with what you already know, 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.359 which already believe, and then you can give us feedback 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.719 on how that may have changed your viewpoint, how that 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.000 caused you to double down any viewpoint, etcetera. So, before 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.080 we dive into the various sort of categories of anti 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.080 space arguments, there was one article that I read that 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:54.839 i'd like to use as like a cap off for 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.040 us to start with. And this was written in by 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.960 a guy named Gary Westfall, and it's called The Case 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.560 against Space uh. And it's in it's it's actually in 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.839 a science fiction journal called Science Fiction Studies. Uh. It 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.640 was issued seventy two. If you want to go look 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.520 it up. Um. And he basically says, look like, I'm 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.039 part of the sci fi community. I love science fiction. 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.360 I'm a science fiction writer. I teach science fiction. Uh. 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.320 And I have been in love with the idea of 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:26.680 going to space for decades now, but lately, like my 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.120 enthusiasm for it has waned. Uh. And he says there 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.680 have been different supportive arguments for space travel in recent 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.719 error eras right, So you can sort of break it 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.520 down from the fifties and sixties to the seventies and 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.039 eighties and then up to his point in the nineties. 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.280 And I think as we go on today, we'll see 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:47.800 some more in the the ats and the teens that 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.160 we're existing in now. But uh, he said, the fifties 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.960 and the sixties, they were all philosophical arguments, right, humanity 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.960 must venture into an occupy outer space so that we 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.800 can fulfill our inherent drive for exploration and inhabit unknown realms. 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:06.719 Not because it is easy, that it is hard. Oh yeah, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.320 Well Kennedy didn't have a Boston accent. He had a 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.920 he had a Kennedy accent. Yeah, but I can try. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.520 Uh you know what. No, I'm not gonna I could 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:24.440 do his brother. I had a bad ice cube anyways. Okay, 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.160 But to continue on, this is basically like the Star 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:32.760 Trek argument, right, like like a new life, new civilizations, YadA, YadA. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.920 It's kind of a manifest destiny kind of yeah. Yeah, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.160 which is a good way to put it. Um. In short, 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.360 he says, this is an exact quote. In short, the 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.960 history of our species powerfully suggests that progress will come 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.560 from continued stable life on Earth and that a vast 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.880 new program of travel into space will lead to a 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.160 new period of human stagnation. And interestingly enough, he then 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.600 quotes the exact quote that you put above from Carl Sagan. 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:03.239 Then he says, Okay, then in the seventies and eighties 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.440 was shifted right because the whole philosophical thing wasn't really 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.120 working out anymore, and it became a practical economic argument, 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.000 and it was something like this that outer space will 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.600 solve our many problems, uh, the ones that are confronting 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.360 us here on Earth, and that people will step forward 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.200 to solve these problems and we're gonna make a lot 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.240 of money doing it. It's kind of an industrial uh 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.880 trickle down economics kind of you, which sort of velcrow 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.760 as the star. Right, look at this. We have velcro 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:35.480 because of space, And isn't your life better because of velcro? 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.760 Velcro is perfect? Yeah, I forgot all about that. Uh, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.559 I'm gonna like it's just gonna be us thinking about 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:47.360 like all the like space stuff from our childhood, like velcrow, 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:54.080 tang and like freeze dried ice cream suppose. Yeah. Um, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.280 But here's his quote about that one. He says, thus, 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.240 when people were unmoved by calls to fulfill the basic 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.720 destiny of manity, which is the exploration one, it was 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.600 hoped that the magnetic allure of the dollar sign would 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.040 draw them into the space camp. And they were talking 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.839 about everything from gathering free energy from the Sun to 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.319 mining key metals on the moon, building space factories that 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.640 would make big money, developing and selling life saving medicine 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.560 and devices. And that is something that's going to come 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.959 up later in this podcast as well. Then in the 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.960 nineties we switched again, right, And this is what I 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.440 like to call the Armageddon argument, which is basically the 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:33.280 movie Armageddon. We need to go into space for defensive 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.760 reasons and for prevention. We need to make sure a 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.120 massive asteroid doesn't strike Earth and kill all of us, 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:43.480 or even better, we move into space. The asteroid can 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.920 hit Earth and destroy if it doesn't matter because we've 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.559 colonized other planets, right And I that's one that I 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:53.520 especially think it's still a very compelling argumentation. It's a 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.360 big picture argument. And that's one of the things about 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.280 any of this because when you're trying when you're looking 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.040 at space, you're talk thinking about you're talking about space exportation, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.400 you're talking about a massive megaproject, and you get they 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.480 have all these different ideas of what it means, what 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:10.480 the benefits are, what are the short term versus a 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.480 long term and what does it mean to see this 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.760 as an extension of culture? Yeah, yeah, I agree, And 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:20.880 so like I said, like I guess what I'm looking 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:22.640 for is by the end of this podcast that I'll 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.080 be able to be convinced back to my five year 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.200 old self who was enamored with the idea of being 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:32.240 an astronaut. But uh, Westfall basically uses the rest of 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.680 this this article to make arguments against those three cases, 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.000 um and he He basically finds that there's no compelling, 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.680 immediate reason why we should accelerate our space programs. He says, yeah, 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:45.480 sure would be fine for us to go into outage space, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.719 but we've got much more pressing issues to deal with 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.600 here on Earth, all right, So let's segue from that 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.200 into and this was brand new to me. You educated 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.080 me on this for for this episode, that there are 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.360 religious reasons to go to space. Yeah, there or at 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.720 least the case has been made um and granted you 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:07.800 you don't see as much of this anymore, at least 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:12.400 in mainstream arguments. But but it's still pretty interesting. I've 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.480 been long fascinated by by space religion and the idea 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.600 like what happens to our beliefs when we actually take 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:22.240 them into space, or just what do we do? What 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.640 happens when we take old beliefs essentially old cosmologies, I 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.880 mean maybe even like Babylonian cosmologies, and we try to 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.800 hold onto those sometimes without without daring to tinker with them. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.720 In an age of modern cosmological understanding. Very Jodorowski like 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.079 that that that's like a big theme of his and uh, 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.160 what is it meta barons and that that university sort 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.920 of created around that was a wild universe. Um. Yeah. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.800 So so there are various examples of this. Um. You know, 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.240 there's some religions of Hinduism instantly comes to mind. They 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.959 have displayed an amazing ability to adapt supernatural cosmologies to 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.160 agree with new information on the nature of the universe. Um. 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.960 But other examples stand out to exemplify religions uh, sometimes 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:13.200 unflinching refusal to change in the face of scientific advancement. Geocentricism. 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.320 You know, there's no way anything but the earth can 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:20.040 be the center of creation. Uh. And speaking of creation creationism, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:23.040 there's no there's no way that this uh, that any 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:26.480 of this scientific data and these these scientific theories about 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.679 the origin of species can be any different from this 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:32.840 ancient text that I still hope, right, Why I bother 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:38.280 to go looking? We know we have the gnosticism here already. Yeah. So, 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.840 of course, so it's not that all that surprising that 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:45.560 certain religious groups or certain religious individuals have spoken out 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.040 to varying degrees against space exploration and space travel or 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.480 or raise some very particular religious questions about it. UM. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.800 One that I found very thought provoking occurred in two 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.199 thousand twelve, and this this came from the General Authority 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:07.000 of Islamic Affairs and Endowment SPATWA Committee UH. And and 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.000 I do want to to UH to clarify that this 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:15.800 is UH. This is just one single United Arab Emirates committee. UM. 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.640 They were not They're not speaking speaking all of Islam. UM. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.319 This is just one committee speaking out here. But they 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.120 were mainly interested with what a one way mission to 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:31.000 Mars would mean UH from an Islamic perspective. So this 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.600 is of course the whole idea of the first settlers 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.640 to Mars are essentially on a suicide mission. Well, just 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.600 that constitutes suicide? And if so, UH does the Koran 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.800 speak out against it when it says do not kill 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:46.080 yourselves or one another. Indeed, Allah is to you've ever merciful. 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.440 And they were argumenting that, yeah, Muslims should not go 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.760 on this journey. But the but there even more remarkable 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.800 part of this was and this was brought up is 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.200 the notion that some Muslims might take the trip to 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:03.120 Mars in order or to quote escape punishment or standing 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:07.800 before Almighty Allah for judgment that I don't quite understand, 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.320 but I guess like I'm also not like an Islamic scholar, 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.240 but I would assume that even if they died on 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:17.319 the mission to Mars, they would still face judgment from 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.240 Allah well after life. That that's where it gets crazy, right, 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.000 because if you if you leave Earth, does that mean 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.760 you were leaving God's domain? Is each God is God 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.600 only lord over a single planet? Um? I think the 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:34.160 most would argue that that a that a modern depiction 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.360 of God is a God of all creations, and therefore 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:39.160 if you if you take him off on one world, 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.560 you can't just go to the next and claim immunity. Um. 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.680 And I think that was the the idea that that 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.920 one out here, But it's so much science fiction spins 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.960 off of this very simple idea that we're getting into 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.040 today of should we or shouldn't we go into space? 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.440 You know, like immediately thinking of you and I were 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.760 just talking about this book the other day, Uh, Mary 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.520 Doria Russell's book The Sparrow. Yeah, I have not read it, 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.400 but it's been on my to read list for a 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.120 while really fascinating sci fi book about you know, the 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:14.040 idea of the future sending Catholic Jesuit priests along with 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.960 a team to a new planet where they found alien 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.760 life so that they can be missionaries basically and teach 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.000 them about the Catholic faith. Uh. And of course everything 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.960 goes horribly awry, but it's it's fascinating, yeah, but it's 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.480 also sort of an argument or it ends up sort 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.600 of being an argument for not doing such a thing. Well, um, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.800 we'll get the Catholics in a minute. But by my 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.720 next example comes from the Church of Jesus Christ of 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.080 Latter day Saints, which, you know, a lot of people 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.960 might not think that Mormons are going to really come 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.160 up when we talk about space ready religions, but as 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.000 a relative newcomer to the religious world marketplace, Uh, they 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.520 were really preloaded for the space age from the beginning. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:16:00.200 As pointed out by Roger D. Lonnia's curator of the 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.920 Smithsonian's planetary Exploration programs in his paper A Western Mormon 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.080 in Washington, d c. You have a couple of key 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.760 attributes to the Mormon faith that that make it perfect 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.360 for space. It's grounded in frontier religion kind of giving 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.120 back to that spirit that that that that that quote 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:24.680 from Sagan capture uh and uh. And so you see, 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.600 you see this idea, you know, you're gonna push the frontier. Uh, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.560 not not only the frontiers on Earth, but you're gonna 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.800 push the frontiers in space as well. Yeah. And that 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.760 was primarily through a guy named Dr James C. Fletcher, 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.840 who I believe was Mormon. Uh. He was also NASA's 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.760 administrator from nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy seven and 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:48.320 then again from six to nineteen eighty nine, very influential 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.600 on the Space Shuttle program and other space exploration research. Yeah, 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.080 he was big into set as well. He considered all 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.880 of this, uh, you know, part of his Mormon faith 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.000 that he should push these ideas because Mormon cosmology also 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.080 involves a universe full of worlds without number that are 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.040 inhabited by intelligent beings. So, in other words, earthlings are 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:13.679 not the only creatures in Mormon cosmology. It comes pre 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.359 loaded with the idea that yes, there are other worlds 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.920 under God's domain that are also liberated by the same savior, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.160 and they have they have people on them or something 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.280 like people you know, Um, so you don't have to 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.239 worry about discovering alien life and having as much of 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.359 a uh, you know, a religious um you know, apocalypse 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.720 in the mind. So the opposite version of this in 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.480 like sci fi fantasy type of stuff. I have to 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:43.840 I don't know why, but this is just immediately popping 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.560 into my head. There's this recent storyline in the Thor 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:51.680 comic books where um Thor realizes that like every planet 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:55.600 with sentient life has its own pantheon of gods, right, 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.879 and so like he's part of the Norris pantheon of gods. 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.199 But he flies into space and he goes to another planet, 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.399 and it turns out like this planet had its own pantheon, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:08.399 but somebody had been murdering all of their deities. So 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.480 Thor takes it upon himself to also become their new deity. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.159 You know. Uh, it's just interesting, Like this is just 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:21.360 like amazing springboard for fertile, imaginative ideas for science fiction. Yeah, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.400 and heed it is. Now it's interesting with with Thor 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:25.639 of course, because he's a part of a pantheon of 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:30.639 god's apposed to a monotheistic model, Yeah, which is mainly 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.160 what we're talking about here. Both the Islamic and Mormon examples. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.520 Now to return to the Church of Latter day Saints. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.359 Uh not. Everyone in the history of the Church has 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.920 been super on board with space exploration. In nineteen fifty seven, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.439 just a few short years before the first human ventured 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:54.000 into space, prominent Mormon Joseph Fielding Smith remarked that quote, 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.159 it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.879 make any instrument or ship to travel through space and 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.800 visit the Moon or any distinct planet. And in nineteen 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.960 sixty one, the same year, the Cosmonautori Gargan made history, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.120 I mean the first man in space. Uh. Smith further stated, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.280 we will never get a man into space. This is 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.680 of course before before he went up. Um, we will 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:18.560 never get a man into his face. The Earth is 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.560 man's fear, and it was never intended that he should 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.800 get away from it. The Moon is a superior planet 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.720 to the Earth, and it was never intended that men 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.040 should go there. You can write it down in your 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.800 books that this will never happen. Well, boy, was he wrong, 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.640 or or maybe it's all been a lie. Right, It's 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.679 like the shin I'm surprised nothing came up about the 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.240 Shining conspiracy, the idea that we faked the moon landing. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.280 I think that that plays into some of the attitudes 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.359 will get out, you know, the the nineteen some of 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.200 the early skepticisms that we could do it, and then 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.399 when we did do it, Uh, you had to double 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.439 down on your beliefs and say, well, no, way that 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:57.800 we actually did. I should probably explain what I mean. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:19:59.840 I just threw that out there, like that's common knowledge 0:19:59.920 --> 0:20:02.160 or whatever. This is more along the lines of our 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:04.679 our colleagues over at stuff they don't want you to know. 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.359 But so the idea that the idea goes like this, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.600 well it should be noted, this is a this is 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:13.080 a fake conspiracy theory because they created conspiracy theory that 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:17.520 nearly but people fascinating the people got really into it. 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.639 You've seen about it. Yeah, So, like the the idea 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.879 goes that the moon landing and all of our space 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.119 exploration has been faked, and that in particular the moon 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:33.320 landing was shot and faked by Stanley Kubrick, and subsequently 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:39.520 the shining is a metaphorical thematic apology to his wife. 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.720 I think for committing the act of lying to the 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.760 public about what happened on the Moon. Yeah, it's it's 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:52.600 it's elaborate, and it's such a neatly constructed, elaborate conspiracy 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:57.800 theory that you can't help but find it, find it fascinating. Um. 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.800 But doubting the moon landing, that, of course, is a 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.720 very real thing. And and I do think that that 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:05.439 that spirit is echoed and some of the stuff we're 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.440 gonna discuss here in a bit now. I do want 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.639 to mention one more thing about Joseph Fielding Smith, and 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.879 that is that later on his um his grandson, writing 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:17.120 about about all of this, uh he uh, he made 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.560 a case that that one of the points that Smith 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.800 was making was that if you went to another world, 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.320 you've discovered that they had the same Savior, they had 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:28.959 the same God, and therefore you wouldn't have to have 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.960 faith anymore. That that that by visiting another planet, you 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.800 could confirm the existence of God and therefore remove the 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:41.040 importance for faith and the human experience. UM okay, I 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.719 don't like just taking that from like a sort of 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.800 like debate logical perspective. I don't know that I necessarily 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:55.240 agree just because another species evolved to have a monotheistic 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:01.560 religion that that confirms the existence of a God. I 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:04.840 don't know. I'd have to hear more. It's an it's 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.320 an interesting idea. I imagine it would require a deeper 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.080 discussion of Mormon theology. I guess, as our colleague Holly 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.240 Fry often says, I require more data. Yeah, but but 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:18.280 I do. I do find the Mormon faith very interesting 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.000 and it's in its space ready nature. Though as we've 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:24.359 explored here that it still doesn't mean you're gonna not 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:28.320 encounter some some problems when you bring your faith into 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.800 an everly, ever increasingly space age. Oh yeah, yeah, certainly. 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.280 Now some other examples here. Scientist David Rittenhouse insisted back 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.199 in seventeen seventy five that quote, the doctrine of a 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:43.520 plurality of worlds is inseparable from the principles of astronomy. 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.400 But this doctrine is still thought by some pious persons 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.280 to militate against the truths asserted by the Christian religion. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.080 A two thousand fourteen University of dat And study found 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.439 that Evangelical Protestants are much sure Jesus will return in 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.399