WEBVTT - Is Santa a god? (part 2) 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:13.880 I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to Stuff 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:15.840 to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.040 I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two of 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.200 our discussion of whether or not Santa Claus is technically 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.919 a god, at least according to the most common criteria 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.479 used by cognitive science of religion. Now we had to 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.760 break this discussion in two because it wins so long, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:31.720 and now we're treating you to the second half of 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.800 our conversation about gods, our brains, and Santa Claus. We 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:39.040 hope you enjoy as we jump right back in. Okay, 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.600 so we've been talking about these criteria that Justin Barrett 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.120 raises that you will find a common to pretty much 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.600 all beliefs in gods among you know, religions you find 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.960 in the world. That gods tend to be counterintuitive in 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.400 some way, often minimally counterintuitive. That they tend to be 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.720 intentional agents, that they have strategic information, that they in 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.200 some way act in the world, and that they're capable 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.319 of motivating behaviors that reinforce belief. Oh and that's one 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.319 other thing we should have emphasized. I guess we did 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.240 in this that the most important thing about the behaviors 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.039 that the God's motivate, the rituals or whatever, is that 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.320 the the motivated action most important to this system is 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.240 that it reinforces the original belief itself. Yeah, because that's 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.720 how it continues. It's it has to sustain itself through that. Yes. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.319 So I was just thinking to myself, Okay, these these 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.360 five criteria, what happens if we apply them to certain 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.600 fictional entities that either claim to be God or are 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.679 believed to be a god of some sort within the fiction. 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.360 Take Goes or the Gazarian, for instance, one of the best. 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.920 So it's it's a minimally counterintuitive concept. You know, it 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.680 has agency, it does a lot of stuff, But does 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.960 it offer strategic information? I don't know if it offers it. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.680 I think it probably has it. Yeah. Uh. I also 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.279 about the only good example I had this is that, Okay, 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:07.440 I mean, certainly it has strategic information because it can 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.440 see into your thoughts and see what mental pictures you 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.960 are filling your brain with, so I think that would count. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.080 It also has information that the world will be destroyed 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:20.480 by itself. So that's that's that's worth having. I guess, like, 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.079 is Godzilla a god? I mean, does god Zilla possess 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:28.800 strategic information or well? I don't know. I think Godzilla 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.200 is just a big monster, right, But go goes Are 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:35.240 the Gozarian uh comes from another dimension and it's like 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.560 a god that makes Godzilla's makes marshmallow Godzilla exactly. It 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.960 takes the form of Godzilla, right, Um, okay, the big 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.000 one with the Gozer. Though, does it offer motivating behaviors 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.200 that reinforce belief? Maybe? I mean, it seems only concerned 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.080 with the opening of the doors that will allow it 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:54.920 to destroy the world as it destroyed other worlds. I 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.000 don't know. I think the case is maybe a little weak, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.799 but conceivable. I just realized I is calling goes Or 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:02.320 a heat. I'm not sure goes Or as a heat. 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.320 Goes Er might be a she or or neither gender 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.960 I'm not sure. Yeah, I think goes Are's gender neutral, 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.359 even though it does take the form of a feminine 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.880 figure in the in the movie. And I think but 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.720 I think in the original script it was going to 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.959 be played by pee Wee Hermann. Right. Oh wow, I 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.080 say goes Or transcends our puny concepts of gender. Right, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.960 So we talked about as a thought, as a though, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:28.400 as a thought, however you want to say it earlier. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.840 I think this one fails because lax agency, and I'm 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.960 not sure it actually acts in the human world at all. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.200 I think it's supposed to be just an entity out 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.440 there in the void, and it's just supposed to be 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:42.880 frightening and terrifying that it's out there at all. Um 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.720 Sutter Kane from John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Madness, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:49.680 I think he checks off all the boxes. He's a 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.920 human that becomes a god. But then he's got I mean, 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:54.800 by the end of the film, there's no questioning it. 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.440 I gotta watch that again. It's it's it's pretty solid. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.920 One of my favorites. Okay, here's one we have to discuss. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.960 This is one we've talked about in greater detail on 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:04.800 a past episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind. Yeah, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:10.200 the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Okay, the Postafarian concept, which granted 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.160 is kind of a it is it is a counter 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.400 religious argument. It is an idea that it's brought up. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.680 It's kind of a contrary uh concept. Right, Well, it's 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:23.080 another one of those that's obviously a joke. At the 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.920 moment you hear it, right, you don't have to investigate, 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.120 like do people seriously believe? I mean, like you just 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.040 know instantly it's a joke. And again that's a clue 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.080 that there's like there are some kind of intuitive constraints 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.960 on what gods they're supposed to be, like, right, I mean, 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.320 his the flying spaghetti Monster. I think the biggest flaw 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.720 might be that it is not minimally counterintuitive. It is 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:48.279 it has two counter into two counterintuitive. It's like God 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.000 is a potato, right. But on the other hand, I 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.120 do think it checks off a number of the boxes. Uh, 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.400 you know, his he has detectable actions, and they see 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.359 that they seem to be limited to the creation of 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.039 the world and also the changing of scientific measurements with 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:08.840 his newly appendage changing radiocarbon dating. Uh, and so for well, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.160 I mean, I guess another thing is the question of, 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.400 like whether people sincerely believe the things you're talking about 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.920 to meet these criteria or just propose them obviously ingest 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.040 because with all these fictional examples, I mean, you're thinking 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.320 up ideas of where you can create a something that 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.640 meets all the criteria, and yet obviously still is not 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.440 a legit god found in the world because nobody actually believes, right, 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.200 nobody actually worships goes or uh. I mean, this flying 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.080 spaghetti Monster is is an interesting case though, because I 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.120 think it's probably safe to say that nobody actually worships 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.000 the flying spaghetti Monster. No one truly believes in the 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:51.880 flying spaghetti Monster. But at what point does the current 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.960 um concept of the flying spaghetti Monster? At what point 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.360 does it at least partially transcended? Which which point does 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:03.200 it get one newly appendage over the line into godhood. Well, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:05.400 if you go on with a joke long enough, you'll 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.000 start to want to find meaning in it. It always happens, Yeah, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:10.599 I mean, I mean, there's something to be said in 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.800 mean culture with on that account, I believe. I think 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.040 that's absolutely true. I think it's also true. Watch any 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:21.120 irreverent TV show long enough eventually gets sentimental. It's true. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.520 I mean, people want to start finding meaning in the 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.400 chaos of humor and satire. That's a good point, all right, Well, 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:32.679 let's bring it back around to Santa Claus at this point. Um, First, 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:34.680 I just want to recap a little bit about Santa. 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.040 But you know, I want to go I don't want 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:37.960 to go into a full history of Santa Claus, but 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.360 it's it's interesting to just remind everyone where the concept 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.440 came from. A few years ago I chatted with Aida 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:46.240 Adam C. English, chair of the Department of Christian Studies 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:50.760 at Campbell University, about the evolution of Santa and See 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.359 a Santa scholar. Yes, he is the author of the 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.560 book The Saint Who Would Be Santa Claus? The True 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.760 Life and Trials of Nicholas of Mira. Uh that in 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:01.640 this book he point doubt that the modern Santa Claus 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.080 bears almost no resemblance to the historic origins of a 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.960 fourth century Christian bishop. UM, and his continued evolution reveals 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.200 a great deal about modern culture. Uh. This interview used 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.160 to be hosted a Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.600 But now Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com is 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.080 um exists only in a very stripped down form. But 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.960 I'm gonna just read a few uh quotes here from 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:30.280 the author. Adam see English Uh wrote to me and said, 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.560 quote first and most obviously, Santa has been scrubbed of 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.480 any and all religious identity. I think that is something 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.960 people notice when they see the European Old World St. Nick's, 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.480 who are addressed like bishops with a miter stole, ecclesiastical vestiments, 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.600 a Crozier staff, and many times wearing a crucifix or 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.880 cross on the neck. In contrast, Santa has been domesticated, commercialized, 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.840 and universalized or secularized, depending on your viewpoint. The miter 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.640 has been softened into a floppy fur trimmed stocking cap, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.280 the estimates have been turned into a red first suit 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.120 with white trimming, the stole into the big black belt 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.520 in the Crozier staff into a large sack of toy. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.480 Even his name is under gone changed. Santa Claus is 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:17.560 an americanization of the Dutch center class, which is just St. Nicholas. 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.680 His other name, Chris Kringle, is the americanization of the 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:26.640 German Austrian uh Chris Kindle or christ Child. Martin Luther 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.840 attempted to replace Nicholas as the gift giver with the 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.120 baby Jesus. The Christmas gifts come from the Christ Child, 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.320 well the Kris Kringle. The religious With Chris Kringle, the 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:41.520 religious significance important to Luther has again been lost. He continues, 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.360 quote the first depiction of Nicholas in America by the 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.360 New York Historical Society showed him as a stern bishop 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.160 in the European fashion, but within fifty years he transformed 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.559 into the magical elf who drives a sleigh pulled by 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:58.480 reindeer and trops down chimneys. Um. And then also he 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.960 drove home that there was no here a once upon 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.880 a time pure religious Santa Claus Christmas has always been 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.720 a blend of the sacred and the secular, popular in 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.120 the solemn, commercial and the familial um. Also, he points 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.000 out that you know a lot of it also dates 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.800 back to older beliefs. Uh. He said that in pre 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.600 Christian times, the Greeks they celebrated Linnea, Romans had the 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:26.320 Saturnalia in late December as well as the Romalia. Germans 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.400 hunted and feasted at Yule Tide, the Irish had Rende. 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.120 So I mean, you have all these different midwinter festivals 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.000 and they all involve a lot of you know, merriment, feasting, etcetera. Okay, well, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.080 this introduces some difficulty because if we're talking about evaluating 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.480 whether Santa Claus meets the cognitive science of religion criteria 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.520 of a god what Santa Claus do you go with? 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.760 Do you go with like, you know, St. Nicholas, or 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.960 do you go with like some kind of you know, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.880 as defined in some traditional work, or do you try 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.560 to gather in the great you know, tapestry of different 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.560 Santa laws stuff out there today, and and and consider 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.400 it all together and and put together I don't know, 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.199 an amalgam. Yeah. And this is a problem that that 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:12.319 Barrett gets into in the paper because because really, on 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.800 one hand, you could you could really cherry pick from 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:21.520 global and historical Santa Claus ideas and concepts and then 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.520 choose the descriptions and attributes that best support your case. 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:27.800 If you're saying God, are you saying not a God? 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.600 You could point to evidence to support it. So, but 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:33.920 but but first of all, Barrett just says, okay. At 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:38.040 first glance, he thinks Santa meets all five criteria. First 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.239 of all, Santa is minimally counterintuitive. He's a flying, jolly, old, 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:47.559 kind hearted man. He's like he's grandfather Christmas. Also, Santa 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.960 is an intentional agent. Santa. Santa has a mind. Santa 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:55.240 wants to do things. He is not an unanimate carbon rod. Also, 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.200 he possesses strategic information. He knows if you've been bad 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:00.880 or good. He acts in at at actable way. He 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.520 leaves gifts or even a note in some cases. Uh, 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.640 and he motivates reinforcing behaviors. Kids leave out milk and 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.240 cookies for him. That is the sacred offering that is 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.280 made to the Great Elf himself. Well, I mean, and 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.440 I guess he would hope that his actions encourage children 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.480 to be good around Christmas. I mean, that's what it's 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.640 supposed to be. That's true, that's the whole other aspect 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.319 of it as well. But ultimately, Barrett, he's not convinced, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.080 is he. No, he insisted Santa ultimately fails at being 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:32.920 a god. Okay, now what is his case here? Okay, 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.040 So on the counterintuitive point, he gets into this this 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.800 whole like cherry picking thing that we discussed earlier. He 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.520 counters that that we're not unified enough in our vision 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:46.679 of Santa. In some some belief incarnations or in some 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.360 media incarnations, we just see him as like a kind 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.240 old man, while others show him as being this magical 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.720 being that we've mostly been talking about. Right, this idea 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.720 that he lives forever at the North Pole and flies 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:00.600 through the air and doesn't obey the law of physics 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.760 and time. Uh. And he says that some films portray 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.400 him as as being a normal person who just has quote, 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:11.400 special friends, animals, and resources. Now, Barrett makes a distinction 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.320 that I'm not sure I fully get. I wonder what 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.640 you thought about this. Barrett makes a distinction between a 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:22.559 counterintuitive being, like a counterintuitive man who has some special qualities, 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.239 versus just like a regular being who uses magic powers. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.280 I'm not sure I really understood what the distinction is there, Like, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.720 if you can use magic powers, that seems counterintuitive to me. Yeah, 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.240 I don't know. The way I was thinking about it 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.960 when I read it was Okay, he's saying that sometimes 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.520 Santa Claus is Superman, sometimes Santa Claus is Batman. Superman 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.160 has amazing powers that are otherworldly. Batman is just a 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:51.800 normal guy, but he has special um gadgets and he 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.560 has special friends. Okay, So, like in the Santa Claus movie, 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.880 the Mexican Christmas movie, Um, Santa Claus doesn't have the 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.880 innate power to teleport. He has the flower to disappear. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.000 That's right, yes, And if he loses the flower to disappear, 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.120 he can't teleport anymore. He's literally what he's treated by 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.280 a dog, I think in that, yes, you know so, Yeah, 0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.480 that's a great exam That film is just a great 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.720 film in general, and I believe played a key role 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.520 in we're talking about the the idea that Santa Claus 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.560 must travel as a concept like that film, if I 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.040 remember correctly, played a very important role in introducing the 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:31.840 concept of modern western Santa Claus to a Mexican audience. Huh. 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.040 But yeah, in that he seems like just a ridiculous 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.000 old man. If he is if he loses any of 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.520 his magical items, Okay, I can see this, and he 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.520 depends on a lot of cooperation and support to really 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.080 get the job done. Yes, he's got his friend Merlin, 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.080 he's got all the children who help him. He's got 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.160 the machine with the lips whatever he's going on there. Yeah, 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.800 he's more of a batman Santa Claus for sure, Whereas 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.640 in Santa Claus Versus the Martians, uh, the other m ST. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.800 Three k Riff Santa Claus movie, in that he has powers, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.160 he can make toys do his bidding. Yeah, he's Hermes. 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.960 I mean, all right, well, let's move on. To the 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.840 strategic information front. Okay, which again at the at the 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.080 surface level, it seems like it's He's got it. He 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.240 knows if you've been bad or good. Right, Yeah, But 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.360 Barrett again argues that it comes down to consistency, and 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.480 it's not consistent enough for Barrett, because does Santa truly 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.080 know if someone has done or plans to do something 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.920 morally objectionable? Yeah. Barrett says that knowing whether a person 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.880 has been bad or good is not actually strategic information. 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:42.680 It's the same kind of judgment another person could easily make. Uh. 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.200 And what would constitute strategic information is, for example, knowing 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:52.280 in advance whether somebody is going to be good or bad. Again, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.680 I'm not sure if I agree with Barrett here. I 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.560 think that knowing whether somebody was bad or good, especially 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.360 if you know what they did in private when nobody 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.120 else was there to see them, that seems like strategic 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.400 information to me. Like, if you could watch what other 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.440 people did in private without them knowing, would that not 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:12.760 provide you with information that could give you a strategic advantage. Yeah, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.360 I don't know. It's it's one of those areas of 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.520 the Santa Claus concept where it does seem like a 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.640 boiled down version of what you see in God right, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.520 a more limited version. And I think part of this 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.480 is kids are generally children are not attributed with tremendous 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.120 powers of hiding their wrongdoing. Like generally, whatever they're doing bad, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.960 it's super obvious because that's what we're getting onto them for. 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.720 You know. Okay, the next one, does Santa act in 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.400 the world in detectable ways? Well, Barrett says that Santa 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.120 meets this one but weekly, since the gifts come once 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.920 a year in a limited manner, so it's not you know, 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.440 he's not bringing you gifts every week or every month 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.640 even to to to really you know, make sure the 0:15:55.680 --> 0:16:00.360 detection is uh is a is obvious, you know, Yeah, 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.680 And I would say the production of the gifts, as 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.240 with many of the things that are say prayed for, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.520 petition for in religions, with things that are definitely recognized 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.400 as God's it's similarly ambiguous in terms of the mechanism. 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:15.360 You know, you like, go to sleep and then the 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.160 presents are there in the morning. There's a lot of 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.800 kind of wiggle room to think about what's going on there, right, 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.280 and then sometimes Santa, I mean as We've discussed previously 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.320 on the show. Santa tends to come if he if 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.120 it is if he has if it is discussed that 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.920 Santa might come, he tends to come. Generally, threats of 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.120 Santa might not come this year because E've ben bad, 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.440 generally those threats are not acted upon. But on the 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.240 other hand, Santa doesn't always bring everything you wanted, and 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:43.240 sometimes Santa doesn't bring those gifts that are ridiculous or dangerous. Right, So, yeah, 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.720 there's a lot of room to I don't know where. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.440 It's up to the user kind of to infer the 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.640 amount of detectable behavior that they wish, and then let's 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.120 get around to motivating reinforcing behavior to Santa. Claus do 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.920 this well. We chatted about this a bit in our 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:03.600 Carampus episode Actually does Santa really work? Does the idea 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.639 actually make kids behave? And Barrett contends that it does not. 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.639 He says Santa is gonna come either way. And again, 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.719 it's also only going to impact Christmas. This is just 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.960 what we were talking about, Like, does does the idea 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:18.840 that Santa might not bring you any gifts at Christmas? 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.720 Does that have any impact at all on a child's behavior? 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.960 In March. I don't know, because because in March when 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.880 you're eight, like Christmas is a thousand years away. Yeah, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.240 And just think also about like how long a month 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.400 is to a child compared to how long a month 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.919 is to an adult. Yeah. I guess that's what you 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:36.920 mean by a thousand years away. I mean every year 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.520 to to a five year old feels like an eternity. Um. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.200 But yeah, there was another thing I was thinking about here, 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.639 which is the most important behavior for a god, belief 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.000 to reinforce in order to have memetic resilience, in order 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.800 to survive and spread, it's got to be belief in 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.359 the God itself. We mentioned this earlier. Does Santa's motivating 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:01.679 power in turn motivate belief in Santa or even if 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:06.359 it works, is it just to motivate like being well behaved. Yeah, 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.120 that's a very good point. Yeah, does it actually motivate 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.960 belief in Santa? Do? Kids? I mean you'll see I 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:14.800 guess you see a little of that, you know, um, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.320 kind of like like in you know, an inquisition for 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.840 a normal religion, but applied to the Santa world, Like 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.360 you've got to believe or you'll get in trouble. Well, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.600 I think the the area in the Santa concept as 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.359 as I experienced it growing up, and in the current 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:34.480 rights and rituals that we maintain that the real area 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.760 of of like proof, right is the is the carrot 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.040 that has been bitten by the reindeer and the half 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.280 consumed plate of cookies and milk like that, that, more 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.000 than the presence, is like the fingerprint of God. Explain that, 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:56.880 checkmate atheists, checkmate Richard Dawkins. Anyway, Barrett also points out 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.720 that a big problem facing Santa is to go back 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.560 to some of the origins we've mentioned earlier, is that St. 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.080 Nicholas is dead. Boo, No, he's not. No. No. The 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.040 connection to the long dead sat is clear, and myths 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.719 don't really explain it. He is not the resurrected St. Nicholas. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.639 We're never told that's the case. He's not the ghost 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.160 of St. Nicholas. He's not Nicholas the White returned after 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.560 fighting the ball Rock. He's just he just also happens 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.159 to be the mortal man who definitely died in the 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.800 year three d and forty three CE. This is something 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.600 I'm gonna come back to in just a minute. But yeah, 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.199 there there are not very strong, coherent Santa apologetics that 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.160 are designed to work on adults. Right, Yeah, there's there's 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.040 no like if they explain, well, yes, Santa Claus was 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:46.919 once St. Nicholas and after his death in three three CE, etcetera, etcetera. No, 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.400 it's just like Barrett says, it's like you're into Santa 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.760 and then you look him up and you're like, oh St. Nicholas, Oh, 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.720 and he's dead. And he says that that takes the 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.119 punch out of it. All Right, we're gonna jump in 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.000 here and take a quick break, but we'll be right back, 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.719 and we're back now. In discussing all of this, Barrett 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.280 also provides a humorous chart that compiles his thoughts and 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.000 his his interpretations of these five categories, not only on 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.520 Santa as a possible guy, but also Mickey Mouse, the 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.720 Tooth Fairy, and George Bush. I think this would have 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:24.919 been George W. Bush, Right, Yeah, I believe so. But 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.240 for instance, we area went through Santa Claus, but on 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:32.760 Mickey Mouse, he gave Mickey yes for counterintuitive, yes for 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.639 intentional agent, sure, but then then a no on having 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.399 strategic information and no on acting in the real world, 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.199 and a no unmotivating reinforcing behavior. Oh yeah, I'm with 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.600 all that. On the tooth fairy. Tooth Fairy gets yes 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:52.280 is across the board except for possessing strategic information, which, yeah, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.520 does the tooth fairy really know anything you don't? I mean, 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.520 maybe knows a little bit more about your dental hygiene 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.480 than other entities. Doesn't really seem actionable him. And then finally, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.200 George Bush. George Bush gets yeses across the board except 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.880 for counterintuitive. So he's an intentional agent. He at least 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.840 at the time, possessed strategic information. He acted in the 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.560 real world, and he motivated reinforcing behaviors, but he was 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.240 not counterintuitive. Right, does he motivate reinforcing behaviors? I guess so, yeah, 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.879 I got yeah, I think so. But you know, he 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.600 it was just a human, right, I mean, yeah, it's true, 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.600 any actually existing human walking around on the earth motivates 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.680 reinforcing behaviors, because if you act as if these people 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.639 don't exist, it will cause problems for you. I should 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.399 also point out that if you if you want to 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.640 actually look up this paper and the full title, which 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:43.800 we did not share earlier for reasons that we become 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:47.000 obvious is why Santa Claus is not a god again 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.359 Journal of Cognition and Culture, two thousand and eight. If 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:51.160 you look it up. He also has a wonderful Venn 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.159 diagram of how all five of these concepts interact, and 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.520 the like the one safe zone where you have candidates 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:03.720 for successful gods according to these these ideas. Now, I 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:07.800 would say to be critical of these uh criteria we've 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.760 been discussing. I think you could argue that Santa meets 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.360 all five criteria at least in some cases of belief, 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.760 and maybe not in other cases of belief, and yet 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.879 still there is no active cult of Santa whatsoever among adults. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.480