WEBVTT - 2. Quiet No Longer 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:30.876 Pushkin. The day of their deaths, January second, nineteen eighty one, 0:00:31.476 --> 0:00:34.596 Verna and Doug's bodies were flown by helicopter back to 0:00:34.636 --> 0:00:38.196 the mainland. The next day, they were autopsied by the 0:00:38.196 --> 0:00:45.996 acting Medical Examiner of Ventura County, doctor Craig Duncan, Hi 0:00:46.076 --> 0:00:50.196 DUC Duncan Dan a good year. I met doctor Duncan 0:00:50.276 --> 0:00:53.356 recently at his home in Ventura, which is full of 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:58.636 California oil paintings and human skulls. He's a psychiatrist now 0:00:58.756 --> 0:01:01.636 and wears a big opal ring, but back in nineteen 0:01:01.676 --> 0:01:06.276 eighty one, he was a forensic pathologist. Graduated from medical 0:01:06.316 --> 0:01:09.876 school in nineteen sixty nine that I went to Baltimore 0:01:09.916 --> 0:01:14.276 to complete my training under Russell Fisher, who was really 0:01:14.316 --> 0:01:20.076 the grandfather of forensic pathology, or a major figure. And 0:01:20.516 --> 0:01:24.276 he saw the case of Verna and Doug as uncomplicated. 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:29.916 It's a standard autopsy of a standard drowning case, and 0:01:31.116 --> 0:01:37.516 handled in that fashion with fairly fresh bodies and obvious 0:01:37.596 --> 0:01:46.276 drowning results. There was clearly evidence of water drowning, lungs 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:50.036 being full of water. I had the autopsy reports with 0:01:50.076 --> 0:01:52.916 me and we went through them together. It didn't take 0:01:52.996 --> 0:02:00.156 long the very little one on Douglas's body in terms 0:02:00.196 --> 0:02:06.156 of external markings up. I've Verna over here, so this 0:02:06.356 --> 0:02:15.236 is Verna. See no trauma, very little evidence of any 0:02:15.236 --> 0:02:20.516 trauma at all on Verna's body, same with Douglas, other 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:24.036 than what I would anticipate in a struggle to prevent 0:02:24.636 --> 0:02:28.716 one from drowning, not a struggle with another human, just 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:34.876 at other than the injury of drowning. There were no injuries, 0:02:35.516 --> 0:02:39.156 no indication that Verna or Dug had been attacked. And 0:02:39.276 --> 0:02:43.676 I contend that there was no evidence of homicide in 0:02:44.156 --> 0:02:49.876 the initial autopsies, as evidenced by no assault wounds clubbing 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:53.396 on the head with an oar, etc. And no defense 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:57.556 wounds bruises, fractures on the arms, which would be just 0:02:57.716 --> 0:03:01.676 human nature to do in the event of an attack. 0:03:03.156 --> 0:03:06.956 It was simple, he said. No trauma, no assault of wounds, 0:03:07.516 --> 0:03:12.876 no homicide. Doctor Duncan declared Verna and Doug's deaths accidental. 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:18.236 That determination freed Fred as next of kin to proceed 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:23.236 with his funerary plans. They drowned on Friday, the autopsies 0:03:23.276 --> 0:03:26.916 happened on Saturday. On Monday, he'd have a memorial for 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:30.276 Verna and Doug at the Malibu Methodist Church, followed by 0:03:30.276 --> 0:03:33.716 a reception at the house on Sea Level Drive. Meanwhile, 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:36.076 he arranged to have the bodies moved to a mortuary 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:39.796 in Los Angeles and scheduled them to be cremated on Wednesday, 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:44.916 January seventh. Then their ashes would be scattered at sea, 0:03:45.196 --> 0:03:47.396 and Fred would begin to put back the pieces of 0:03:47.396 --> 0:03:51.316 his life as the single father of three young girls. 0:03:53.036 --> 0:03:59.756 Or that's what he assumed. I'm Dana Goodyear and this 0:04:00.796 --> 0:04:35.876 is Lost Hills episode two, Quiet No Longer. Fred slept 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:39.356 alone in his and Vernah's bed. In the morning, he'd 0:04:39.396 --> 0:04:42.436 have the awful task of telling Verna's daughter Kim, and 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:45.996 his daughters Heidi and Kirsten that Verna and Doug would 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:50.036 not be coming home. They remember it how he sat 0:04:50.116 --> 0:04:54.676 them down and started methodically going through it. Yeah, he 0:04:54.796 --> 0:04:59.596 told us. And it was hard because it's like hearing 0:04:59.636 --> 0:05:02.716 a story that you do not want to know the 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:06.276 ending two. And he didn't just start off. He started 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:09.436 off telling us that they were out on the boat 0:05:10.356 --> 0:05:15.676 and the dog had jumped into the water. But it's 0:05:15.756 --> 0:05:18.036 you know, we're just waiting. He didn't just come out 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:20.476 and say it. And then you know. He told us 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:25.156 it was shocking. That's Heidi. We met up over the 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:29.276 summer at Heidi's house in Colorado. Kirsten was there too, 0:05:29.476 --> 0:05:32.676 and so was Kim. Fred they said, had gone through 0:05:32.716 --> 0:05:36.436 the story in order, the Dog, the Birds, the dory, 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:41.356 overturning the attempts at CPR. Here's Kim, but he did 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:44.036 start from the beginning of what had happened and walked 0:05:44.116 --> 0:05:48.876 us through each step and then told us that they 0:05:48.916 --> 0:05:57.796 were God. The three sisters are incredibly close. Add to that, 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:01.356 they all look a lot alike. Even though Kim, Verna's 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:04.316 daughter from her first marriage, is not blood related to 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:09.676 Heidi and Kirsten, the similarities are uncanny. Same straight, dark hair, 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:15.236 same long oval faces, same vivid dark eyes. Oh, people 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:17.436 have asked if we're triplets. I mean high and I 0:06:17.476 --> 0:06:20.116 get twins all the time, and then when the three 0:06:20.116 --> 0:06:23.756 of us are together they ask if for triplets. Kim 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:26.956 says this was going on even back when Vernon Doug 0:06:26.996 --> 0:06:30.516 were alive. And then there were times when my mom 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:34.716 would take us out and she might have like all 0:06:34.756 --> 0:06:36.796 four of us, and somehow it would come up that 0:06:36.836 --> 0:06:39.116 we were a blended family, you know, in the very beginning, 0:06:39.676 --> 0:06:44.116 and then who were the two biological siblings? And I 0:06:44.156 --> 0:06:46.116 think a lot of times it was sometimes was it 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:48.876 you and Doug? Doug and I would get matched the time. 0:06:50.196 --> 0:06:53.396 It's strange, but the sisters remember that time right after 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:58.476 Vernon Doug died as weirdly sweet, the three girls and 0:06:58.516 --> 0:07:02.076 Fred at home eating food dropped off by the neighbor ladies, 0:07:02.476 --> 0:07:05.596 figuring out how to cope. I have a lot of 0:07:05.636 --> 0:07:09.516 good memories of the three of us and Dad and 0:07:09.796 --> 0:07:13.756 the chokes about all the freaking castrolls. He would just 0:07:13.796 --> 0:07:17.316 pull something out because all the women were bringing over casseroles, 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:21.156 so we're like, well, this is our dinner tonight. He 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:24.316 rearranged their rooms so the girls could all sleep together. 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:28.036 Kim and I had a bedroom downstairs, and Kirsten and 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:31.996 Dug upstairs. And then after the accident, he built us 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:34.916 a triple bunk bed so we were right off the kitchen, 0:07:35.076 --> 0:07:38.436 right next to his room, and I remember just being 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:40.396 in there one time and he was in the kitchen 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:43.796 doing the dishes, like listening to Divo and just like 0:07:43.916 --> 0:07:48.156 singing along. It was like another little lifetime of happiness 0:07:49.036 --> 0:07:52.236 because I felt like we all got it together and 0:07:52.316 --> 0:08:12.156 we were like, you know, a family again, the little 0:08:12.196 --> 0:08:16.916 lifetime wouldn't couldn't last. And I still don't remember the 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:23.036 timeline of when we didn't know they were men coming 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:27.636 to talk to my dad periodically and we didn't know 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:32.236 what that was about. The men coming to see Fred 0:08:32.276 --> 0:08:37.436 were detectives from the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. They 0:08:37.476 --> 0:09:05.396 specialized in homicides. Fred Railer is a waterman. Before prison, 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:08.636 the water was his life, which is kind of surprising 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:12.996 given where he grew up in Centerville, Indiana. You know, 0:09:13.076 --> 0:09:19.076 that's funny. I was always interested in water. As a kid. 0:09:19.276 --> 0:09:22.116 He became obsessed with the new sport of scuba diving. 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:25.636 My parents put a pool in, which was sort of 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:29.356 rare back in Indiana in the days. It was very helpful, 0:09:29.516 --> 0:09:34.116 and I actually bought a scuba tank and a regulator 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:38.596 after I read some of Jocastos stuff and watched him 0:09:38.596 --> 0:09:43.436 on television. So I taught myself to swim on around 0:09:43.516 --> 0:09:48.756 and clean the pool without killing myself. And so that's 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:53.356 basically how I really got fascinated with it. Later during college, 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:57.676 he taught swimming. When I was at Purdue, one of 0:09:57.716 --> 0:10:02.116 my electives was water safety instructors, so they actually taught 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:07.916 us the Red Cross methods for teaching swimming, and when 0:10:07.916 --> 0:10:11.756 I came back, actually did swimming lessons in our pool 0:10:11.876 --> 0:10:15.716 for a lot of people. And then when I left, 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:20.756 I left my Red Cross hat and instruction books, and 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:24.516 my mother started teaching swimming and she taught swimming for 0:10:24.556 --> 0:10:28.236 several years. After college, he got his job at Point 0:10:28.276 --> 0:10:31.636 Magoo working as an engineer for the Navy, and the 0:10:31.796 --> 0:10:34.476 Navy sent him to as scuba school in San Diego. 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:38.596 The reason for diving was most of our trouble was 0:10:38.636 --> 0:10:42.356 with stuff underwater. It would either leaked, or it wasn't 0:10:42.356 --> 0:10:46.356 connected right, or you know, something was going wrong. So 0:10:46.756 --> 0:10:49.916 they sent me basically to scuba school, and then that 0:10:49.956 --> 0:10:53.356 allowed me to work with Navy diver to help install 0:10:53.516 --> 0:10:56.716 things and also take pictures of them, and you just 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:59.916 see what was going on. The Navy started sending him 0:10:59.956 --> 0:11:03.996 to the Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai. They actually 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:07.516 had an underwater range, which is like a series of 0:11:07.556 --> 0:11:13.796 microphones spread out underwater and they can track surface ships 0:11:13.836 --> 0:11:18.316 and submarines and things. Fred oriented his whole life around 0:11:18.356 --> 0:11:20.716 the water for a while. He even lived on a 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:24.236 houseboat called home in the Channel Islands Marina in Oxnard. 0:11:24.996 --> 0:11:27.676 He had a little side business there cleaning the bottoms 0:11:27.676 --> 0:11:31.076 of sailboats for race days. That's where he met one 0:11:31.116 --> 0:11:34.036 of the winningest skippers in the harbor, Dick felt On. 0:11:35.116 --> 0:11:38.156 So we did crazy things for sport. We had a 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:41.716 friend who was a Navy pilot on helicopters, and we 0:11:41.796 --> 0:11:45.276 used to go to San Nicholas Island, which was sixty 0:11:45.276 --> 0:11:49.756 miles offshore, and I could do some jobs out there 0:11:49.796 --> 0:11:52.876 because we had some weather stuff out there, So I'd 0:11:52.916 --> 0:11:55.396 go out there on the weekend and he would actually 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:58.636 drop us out of the helicopter in really nice spots 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:03.396 where we could get lobster and things like that. The 0:12:03.476 --> 0:12:07.756 Channel Islands were Fred's playground before they became the place 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:18.596 his wife and steps on died. One of the things 0:12:18.636 --> 0:12:21.476 the detectives from Santa Barbara were struggling to figure out 0:12:21.876 --> 0:12:25.356 was how someone with Fred's water experience had failed to 0:12:25.356 --> 0:12:29.036 save a child in a life preserver. They first showed 0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:31.716 up at Sea Level Drive five days after Verna and 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:35.996 Doug died. It was eleven am on Wednesday, January seventh, 0:12:36.476 --> 0:12:40.836 the day Fred had scheduled Verna and Doug's creamations. Fred 0:12:40.916 --> 0:12:48.396 greeted them cordially. I thank both of your names. Their 0:12:48.516 --> 0:12:52.796 names were Claude Tuller and Fred Ray. Ray did most 0:12:52.796 --> 0:12:56.196 of the talking. He gave the impression that the last 0:12:56.196 --> 0:12:59.116 place he wanted to be was in Malibu bothering a 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:04.796 grieving husband. He was reassuring, if disingenuous. He failed to 0:13:04.796 --> 0:13:09.516 mention that he had a taper quarter running living explain 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:15.756 this Tokay. Santa Cruz Island, Ray said, was part of 0:13:15.756 --> 0:13:19.116 Santa Barbara County, so the deaths were in their jurisdiction. 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:24.036 Our problem is this is that we were we received 0:13:24.036 --> 0:13:27.636 a phone call because we're supposed to ski because it 0:13:27.676 --> 0:13:31.036 was in Santa Barbara County. He was going to need 0:13:31.076 --> 0:13:35.596 Fred's help clearing up a few murky details. To be 0:13:35.676 --> 0:13:38.676 honest with you, Fred, we really don't know what much 0:13:38.716 --> 0:13:43.316 about what's going on, and we have no idea of well, 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:45.276 I can't say we had no idea. We do have 0:13:45.356 --> 0:13:50.276 an idea of what happened out at the island, but 0:13:50.476 --> 0:13:55.196 everything is really sketchy. So, uh, we're kind of like 0:13:55.876 --> 0:14:02.076 thrown into it after the fact. We don't know Yah, Yeah, 0:14:02.356 --> 0:14:05.796 how it was ruled. If it's accidental or if it's 0:14:05.876 --> 0:14:09.916 intentional or whatever. We don't know that parts we know 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:16.196 it certainly looks like it it was accidental, and so 0:14:16.316 --> 0:14:22.236 we we are only looking into it to ascertain what 0:14:22.436 --> 0:14:29.196 the circumstances or what happened. If you understand Detective Ray said, 0:14:29.516 --> 0:14:33.076 it certainly looks like it was accidental. That's because there 0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:37.756 was barely any physical evidence, just Fred's story and a 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:40.956 whole lot of head scratchers. The only thing that I 0:14:41.556 --> 0:14:50.596 would suggest that maybe we do is so you know, 0:14:50.756 --> 0:14:54.876 remind you that that if if there's anything wrong with 0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:58.596 this at all, that you know you have certain rights too. 0:14:59.956 --> 0:15:03.196 So I don't know if it's necessary at that point, 0:15:03.236 --> 0:15:08.516 but certainly I would want to make your work every 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:11.276 every that you have. Plus, I'm sure there's going to 0:15:11.436 --> 0:15:14.836 he mentioned that there might be some civil problems associated 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:17.556 with the drownings. But I'm sure that there's gonna be 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:19.396 a lot of legal things that you're going to have to, 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:26.636 you know, consult with, don't you think, say you read 0:15:26.716 --> 0:15:30.356 Fred his Miranda rights, I should remind you that you 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:33.796 do have the way right to remain silent, and anything 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:36.636 you say cannon will be used against you for a 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:41.236 while amazingly, Fred went ahead with the interview without his 0:15:41.316 --> 0:15:51.996 lawyer again just for awareness. You know, I'm Fred. It's 0:15:52.036 --> 0:15:55.756 gonna really it will be difficult to talk about this, 0:15:56.876 --> 0:16:00.196 I remarked when I I first heard about on the 0:16:00.476 --> 0:16:04.996 on the movies want a Transity. Fred seemed eager to 0:16:05.076 --> 0:16:10.116 please or form a rapport with the detectives. You know, 0:16:10.156 --> 0:16:15.756 we've had a service for both of them Monday, and 0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:18.556 we had friends over afterwards, and a lot of my 0:16:18.596 --> 0:16:22.596 friends are really into sailing and the ocean, and all 0:16:22.676 --> 0:16:26.836 those things were marked over and over that how many 0:16:26.836 --> 0:16:30.476 times have you dumped a boat? And everybody just got 0:16:30.516 --> 0:16:33.836 a little angry and got back in and everything was fine, 0:16:34.916 --> 0:16:37.556 he said. Doug, whom he referred to as his son, 0:16:38.236 --> 0:16:41.796 was very comfortable in the water. That's part of the 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:45.636 things that I find, you know, as perverse as it is, 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:51.516 is that my son was a good swimmer. He had 0:16:51.556 --> 0:16:54.556 just mastered standing up on a boogie board. I mean 0:16:54.596 --> 0:16:59.276 he's small, He was a small boy, but very agile, 0:16:59.316 --> 0:17:02.596 and it was a good swimmer. He was practically babbling 0:17:02.916 --> 0:17:07.716 answering questions the detectives hadn't even asked. But I think 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:10.316 part of the thing that got him, was the fact 0:17:10.356 --> 0:17:12.756 that he was wearing a life jacket, that he was 0:17:12.796 --> 0:17:15.796 trapped underneath the boat. Cool was he talked him to 0:17:15.876 --> 0:17:19.196 the boat. Well, and again that's something that I can 0:17:19.196 --> 0:17:24.236 only surmise because initially I was trapped up the boat. 0:17:24.556 --> 0:17:29.036 They had a camera and the camera strapped got hooked 0:17:29.116 --> 0:17:33.756 in the door locked. I drew a picture of that. 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:37.236 I don't know if he's familiar with the boat. It 0:17:37.396 --> 0:17:41.196 was a sixteen foot shock rolling doory. Yeah, I saw 0:17:41.276 --> 0:17:47.636 the boat, Yes, I did. Next, Ray wanted to know 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:50.156 about any objects that were in the boat with them, 0:17:50.516 --> 0:17:53.996 clues that could corroborate the locations in his story or 0:17:53.996 --> 0:17:57.556 work to contradict them. Did you have anything in the 0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:02.916 boat other than than the three of you, I mean, 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:08.236 any were you carry and saying which is or cults 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:12.156 or no we had The answer was no. But Fred 0:18:12.196 --> 0:18:14.676 took the question as an invitation to back all the 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:19.876 way up to the purchase of his sailboat months earlier. Well, 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:22.476 let me let me go back. I guess the easiest 0:18:22.516 --> 0:18:29.956 thing is to really start in the beginning about September 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:34.956 August or September of last year. We really had a 0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:38.996 desire to get a boat. We thought we went we 0:18:38.996 --> 0:18:40.876 were to a point where we could really take off 0:18:40.876 --> 0:18:44.596 and do some sailing. As it sounded like he wanted 0:18:44.596 --> 0:18:47.876 the detectives to be happy for him. We just felt 0:18:47.916 --> 0:18:53.596 so fortunate, I mean, so it was really just like 0:18:53.676 --> 0:18:55.756 a real gream come true that we could get the boat. 0:18:57.036 --> 0:19:02.636 And then we spent just about every weekend sailing or 0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:06.876 initially just day sailing or with friends, then finally going 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:09.756 out to the island, and he made an er trips 0:19:09.756 --> 0:19:14.716 out there. Then he started talking about Lady the beagle. 0:19:15.716 --> 0:19:21.356 We had just gotten a dog about maybe a month. 0:19:22.036 --> 0:19:24.036 I'd have to look at the records, but maybe a month. 0:19:24.076 --> 0:19:27.716 For two months ago, the whole family want a dog, 0:19:27.796 --> 0:19:29.756 and I was sort of against the dog one because 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:31.996 we had a boat and we had four children. I 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:33.956 felt they could ted each other. They really needed it 0:19:33.956 --> 0:19:35.796 and we didn't need something else that they care of. 0:19:36.796 --> 0:19:39.156 But they won, and we got a little beagle puppy, 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:43.076 and we had taken her in the car and we'd 0:19:43.116 --> 0:19:44.636 taken her up and spent the night on the boat 0:19:44.636 --> 0:19:48.516 that we never had her out. So one of the 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:51.356 reasons for the trip was one my parents were here. 0:19:51.396 --> 0:19:57.716 From the end, I seem like I'm rambling. So we 0:19:57.716 --> 0:20:01.476 were all aboard and we got underway in the morning. 0:20:02.076 --> 0:20:04.596 My mother actually sailed the boat all the way over, 0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:09.956 and then we put the sails down, and then my 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:14.236 wife takes the both handles the helm at that point, 0:20:14.476 --> 0:20:17.036 and we put down a bow anchor and the stem anchor. 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:24.276 The detectives let him talk and talk until he pretty 0:20:24.316 --> 0:20:28.356 much talked himself out. I think I'm going to pick 0:20:28.396 --> 0:20:30.916 some tea. Can I get you some instant coffee? I 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:36.476 got the happy Fred needed a break. What little coffee 0:20:36.596 --> 0:20:48.796 wasn't hurt. The hidden tape recorder capturing the interrogation wasn't 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:51.676 the only secret Ray and Tyler were keeping from Fred. 0:20:52.956 --> 0:20:56.036 Doug Inverna had not, in fact been cremated that day. 0:20:57.476 --> 0:21:00.876 Unbeknownst to Fred, their bodies were sitting in cold storage 0:21:00.876 --> 0:21:04.596 at the mortuary, waiting for a deputy from Santa Barbara 0:21:04.836 --> 0:21:08.876 to pick them up. How to Judge's search warrant, that 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:12.396 deputy would bring the bodies back to Santa Barbara, where 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:17.516 they'd each undergo a second secret autopsy, which would tell 0:21:17.516 --> 0:21:22.116 a very different story about what happened at Bird Rock. 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:08.396 After Fred returned with the coffee, Detective Ray took charge 0:22:08.436 --> 0:22:12.556 of the conversation. Basically, you're not sure what time it 0:22:12.716 --> 0:22:19.516 was when you went out in the d from your boat. No, 0:22:19.716 --> 0:22:25.276 the best you know it was after lunch. You know, 0:22:25.276 --> 0:22:27.716 it's probably and again it's probably between one and one 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:33.316 thirty somewhere under there, okay. And then you rolled out 0:22:33.796 --> 0:22:37.156 and buy the rocks. From the point where you had 0:22:37.196 --> 0:22:40.636 the accident, you could still see your boat where it 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:44.436 was anchored. Yes, how far off of that rock would 0:22:44.476 --> 0:22:49.836 you see? Your word, Probably twenty to thirty feet. When 0:22:49.876 --> 0:22:54.396 the accident had Fred had told the detectives that the 0:22:54.436 --> 0:22:56.836 purpose of being in the open ocean in the doory 0:22:56.996 --> 0:23:00.116 was to take a picture Doug and Lady with bird, 0:23:00.196 --> 0:23:04.156 rock and Perseverance. How are you going to take the 0:23:04.236 --> 0:23:09.796 picture now you wanted the picture? Yeah, where I was 0:23:09.836 --> 0:23:11.676 going to be sitting. I had been sitting on the 0:23:11.716 --> 0:23:14.796 floor on the boat, or and my son was going 0:23:14.876 --> 0:23:16.956 to be holding the dog, and the picture would have 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:20.556 been looking from this point over his shoulder. You would 0:23:20.556 --> 0:23:23.316 have seen the rocks and the birds. He would have 0:23:23.316 --> 0:23:25.196 been in the foreground the rocks and the birds, and 0:23:25.196 --> 0:23:28.436 then Perseverance would have been in the background. But that 0:23:28.476 --> 0:23:31.476 didn't really square. Was that kind of close to take 0:23:31.956 --> 0:23:35.516 a picture of the rock. I mean, just because of 0:23:35.556 --> 0:23:38.556 the size of the rock, even that kind of close 0:23:38.596 --> 0:23:42.756 to get it into photograph, I don't really understand. I 0:23:42.796 --> 0:23:45.076 guess your question. In other words, if you're going to 0:23:45.156 --> 0:23:51.356 take a picture of of say he's your son, you know, 0:23:51.396 --> 0:23:54.556 I am you sitting here with a camera and you 0:23:54.636 --> 0:23:56.996 want the bolt in the background and the rock to 0:23:57.076 --> 0:24:04.756 the side. Well, to see that it's a rock, if 0:24:04.796 --> 0:24:06.636 you're so close to it's all, even the seas it's 0:24:06.676 --> 0:24:10.036 a big wall, well you have to, I guess, really 0:24:11.116 --> 0:24:13.396 look through the camera and see what the field of 0:24:13.476 --> 0:24:16.476 you is in the camera, because it's not a wide angle, 0:24:16.516 --> 0:24:19.516 it's a it's a narrower type of her thing. I 0:24:19.556 --> 0:24:21.876 was basically listening to her as to where she wanted 0:24:21.876 --> 0:24:25.036 the boat. We had rode out and we had stopped, 0:24:26.076 --> 0:24:29.516 and Verna said, okay, so this should work. Thank we're 0:24:29.516 --> 0:24:33.636 rewards this lot of work here. So I brought the 0:24:33.636 --> 0:24:38.596 oars in the boat and I slipped off the seat 0:24:39.476 --> 0:24:44.156 down into the floor so her back would have been 0:24:44.156 --> 0:24:48.036 towards us here, and she was sitting on a cushion, 0:24:48.276 --> 0:24:58.396 and she had another cushion up in this v excuse Fred, 0:24:58.556 --> 0:25:05.676 the newly single dad was juggling. Yeah, all right, No 0:25:05.876 --> 0:25:09.636 she went with grandma. Wow. I don't know what they 0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:25.196 would have the tell okay, oh, so she would have 0:25:25.236 --> 0:25:28.276 been sitting with her back to us. Ray wanted to 0:25:28.316 --> 0:25:31.916 know about Doug's condition after the doory flipped. What was 0:25:31.956 --> 0:25:36.876 his clothes? His eyes were open? What's he breathing? Could 0:25:36.916 --> 0:25:46.236 you too? No, he wasn't breathing, just flity, you know, 0:25:46.236 --> 0:25:48.876 it was just running from his mouth. He wasn't he 0:25:49.036 --> 0:25:58.396 wasn't shaking, he wasn't wretching. What color was involmit again? Yellow? 0:26:00.516 --> 0:26:02.756 It's almost like you could see the corn chips and 0:26:02.796 --> 0:26:05.796 stuff that he had had for lunch. Detective Ray knew 0:26:05.836 --> 0:26:10.116 Fred had a lot of ocean experience. To the ocean here, 0:26:10.196 --> 0:26:13.676 you've been around the ocean boast you are so. Came 0:26:13.716 --> 0:26:20.036 to California in nineteen sixty six and my first job, 0:26:20.716 --> 0:26:27.036 the Navy appointment. Do basically been near the water and 0:26:27.876 --> 0:26:35.476 ever since. Was this your first sailboat? It was my 0:26:35.556 --> 0:26:39.716 first sailboat. I'd had two houseboats before that, and I 0:26:40.276 --> 0:26:45.276 crewed on a number of sailboats, the biggest. The interview 0:26:45.316 --> 0:26:48.196 went on for hours until it was six o'clock at night. 0:26:48.636 --> 0:26:51.956 The detectives were still asking Fred questions while the kids 0:26:51.956 --> 0:26:59.236 were popping in and out. I'll be up. By the 0:26:59.276 --> 0:27:02.676 time the detectives were done with Fred, the tone had shifted. 0:27:03.356 --> 0:27:09.076 They were less reassuring and Fred was less chummy. Somehow, 0:27:09.196 --> 0:27:11.996 we need to figure out if there's a way we 0:27:11.996 --> 0:27:16.796 could figure out to make sure that there was no 0:27:16.876 --> 0:27:20.156 foul play or easy like that. This Ray handed the 0:27:20.156 --> 0:27:24.356 baton to his colleague Claude Teller. Well, it's a couple 0:27:24.356 --> 0:27:33.876 of ways. If you're willing to the polygraph examination. Sure, yeah, 0:27:33.916 --> 0:27:39.276 I think I would probably have to talk to my 0:27:39.396 --> 0:27:43.476 attorney and then find out just exactly what, you know, 0:27:43.516 --> 0:27:46.876 what really I should be doing before you take a polograph. 0:27:47.356 --> 0:27:50.516 I think I really and I really need to talk 0:27:50.516 --> 0:27:55.036 to him before, you know, just Lord knows, you're sure 0:27:55.116 --> 0:27:59.636 going through a lot. Now, we understand. We were just hoping, 0:27:59.756 --> 0:28:02.636 because you know, there's no way to tell one we 0:28:02.716 --> 0:28:05.956 or another right now. We're just hoping there's some way 0:28:05.996 --> 0:28:11.316 that we could make it easy, shortened everything happen, you know. 0:28:11.356 --> 0:28:14.356 I think sometimes almost come down to that anyway, because 0:28:15.196 --> 0:28:20.316 I don't know if Verna and dougeat Insurance insurance. So 0:28:20.396 --> 0:28:24.756 that's what this was all about. Yes, so we'll have 0:28:24.836 --> 0:28:28.996 to we'll have to come to some type of resolution. 0:28:29.076 --> 0:28:35.396 They're very likely before they'll settle its way. But were 0:28:35.436 --> 0:28:40.076 they both insured? Yeah, our family was insure. Has it happened. 0:28:40.236 --> 0:28:43.756 There were life insurance policies on both Verna and Doug 0:28:44.436 --> 0:28:47.996 fresh ones. They've been finalized in the weeks before their deaths, 0:28:49.156 --> 0:28:53.276 and the policies were substantial, with an additional payout in 0:28:53.316 --> 0:29:13.996 the case of accidental death. The second secret autopsies would 0:29:14.036 --> 0:29:16.516 never have happened had it not been for a Malibu 0:29:16.556 --> 0:29:20.236 woman named Candy Henman. Candy had been a close friend 0:29:20.236 --> 0:29:24.116 of Fred's first wife, Jean, and she had serious concerns 0:29:24.116 --> 0:29:27.236 about Fred. I wasn't at liberty to say anything to 0:29:27.276 --> 0:29:30.836 anybody because it's such a small town and small group 0:29:30.876 --> 0:29:34.356 of people, and I didn't want to make some accusation 0:29:34.476 --> 0:29:38.716 or say anything that. I just didn't want to do that, 0:29:38.796 --> 0:29:42.316 So I kept quiet about it and just thought things 0:29:42.316 --> 0:29:46.956 would all things would unravel and everybody figure it out. 0:29:48.076 --> 0:29:50.636 But when she heard that Verna and Doug had drowned, 0:29:51.116 --> 0:29:54.516 she was beside herself. That's when I said, I am 0:29:54.596 --> 0:29:58.076 quiet no longer I don't care if I become persona 0:29:58.476 --> 0:30:01.036 non grata for all the community. I was not going 0:30:01.116 --> 0:30:06.476 to keep quiet. Candy started making calls. It was very urgent. 0:30:07.436 --> 0:30:10.156 They were scheduled to be cremated, and I said, hold 0:30:10.276 --> 0:30:12.356 hold it, hold everything. You got to do some kind 0:30:12.356 --> 0:30:19.276 of investigation. I think there was a murder committed. Kentty 0:30:19.316 --> 0:30:23.476 wasn't trying to gossip, burstling mud. She was on a crusade. 0:30:24.156 --> 0:30:27.276 I was determined that day that I was going to 0:30:27.316 --> 0:30:31.476 make sure that somebody hailed him accountable, somebody was going 0:30:31.516 --> 0:30:36.596 to realize that there's a monster out there. Before they 0:30:36.676 --> 0:30:39.196 closed the case on Verna and Doug, she told the 0:30:39.236 --> 0:30:45.396 cops they needed to find out what happened to Fred's 0:30:45.556 --> 0:30:58.436 first wife. Coming up on the next episode of Lost 0:30:58.476 --> 0:31:02.996 tells marriage in Malibu looked a little different in the seventies, 0:31:03.636 --> 0:31:07.236 but there there there was a group who, like me, 0:31:07.436 --> 0:31:11.076 had never slept with any body else before we got married. 0:31:11.756 --> 0:31:15.036 It was just you just didn't do it. And so 0:31:15.396 --> 0:31:18.756 there was a little bit of a freedom for some 0:31:18.876 --> 0:31:24.716 people to you know, get intimate with other people. It 0:31:24.836 --> 0:31:28.636 was open marriage, and it ended in a couple of divorces. 0:31:29.836 --> 0:31:34.156