1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:30,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The day of their deaths, January second, nineteen eighty one, 2 00:00:31,476 --> 00:00:34,596 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug's bodies were flown by helicopter back to 3 00:00:34,636 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 1: the mainland. The next day, they were autopsied by the 4 00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:45,996 Speaker 1: acting Medical Examiner of Ventura County, doctor Craig Duncan, Hi 5 00:00:46,076 --> 00:00:50,196 Speaker 1: DUC Duncan Dan a good year. I met doctor Duncan 6 00:00:50,276 --> 00:00:53,356 Speaker 1: recently at his home in Ventura, which is full of 7 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:58,636 Speaker 1: California oil paintings and human skulls. He's a psychiatrist now 8 00:00:58,756 --> 00:01:01,636 Speaker 1: and wears a big opal ring, but back in nineteen 9 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: eighty one, he was a forensic pathologist. Graduated from medical 10 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:09,876 Speaker 1: school in nineteen sixty nine that I went to Baltimore 11 00:01:09,916 --> 00:01:14,276 Speaker 1: to complete my training under Russell Fisher, who was really 12 00:01:14,316 --> 00:01:20,076 Speaker 1: the grandfather of forensic pathology, or a major figure. And 13 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: he saw the case of Verna and Doug as uncomplicated. 14 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:29,916 Speaker 1: It's a standard autopsy of a standard drowning case, and 15 00:01:31,116 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: handled in that fashion with fairly fresh bodies and obvious 16 00:01:37,596 --> 00:01:46,276 Speaker 1: drowning results. There was clearly evidence of water drowning, lungs 17 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 1: being full of water. I had the autopsy reports with 18 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:52,916 Speaker 1: me and we went through them together. It didn't take 19 00:01:52,996 --> 00:02:00,156 Speaker 1: long the very little one on Douglas's body in terms 20 00:02:00,196 --> 00:02:06,156 Speaker 1: of external markings up. I've Verna over here, so this 21 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:15,236 Speaker 1: is Verna. See no trauma, very little evidence of any 22 00:02:15,236 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 1: trauma at all on Verna's body, same with Douglas, other 23 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:24,036 Speaker 1: than what I would anticipate in a struggle to prevent 24 00:02:24,636 --> 00:02:28,716 Speaker 1: one from drowning, not a struggle with another human, just 25 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 1: at other than the injury of drowning. There were no injuries, 26 00:02:35,516 --> 00:02:39,156 Speaker 1: no indication that Verna or Dug had been attacked. And 27 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:43,676 Speaker 1: I contend that there was no evidence of homicide in 28 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:49,876 Speaker 1: the initial autopsies, as evidenced by no assault wounds clubbing 29 00:02:49,916 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 1: on the head with an oar, etc. And no defense 30 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:57,556 Speaker 1: wounds bruises, fractures on the arms, which would be just 31 00:02:57,716 --> 00:03:01,676 Speaker 1: human nature to do in the event of an attack. 32 00:03:03,156 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 1: It was simple, he said. No trauma, no assault of wounds, 33 00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:12,876 Speaker 1: no homicide. Doctor Duncan declared Verna and Doug's deaths accidental. 34 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:18,236 Speaker 1: That determination freed Fred as next of kin to proceed 35 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:23,236 Speaker 1: with his funerary plans. They drowned on Friday, the autopsies 36 00:03:23,276 --> 00:03:26,916 Speaker 1: happened on Saturday. On Monday, he'd have a memorial for 37 00:03:27,076 --> 00:03:30,276 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug at the Malibu Methodist Church, followed by 38 00:03:30,276 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 1: a reception at the house on Sea Level Drive. Meanwhile, 39 00:03:33,836 --> 00:03:36,076 Speaker 1: he arranged to have the bodies moved to a mortuary 40 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:39,796 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and scheduled them to be cremated on Wednesday, 41 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 1: January seventh. Then their ashes would be scattered at sea, 42 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:47,396 Speaker 1: and Fred would begin to put back the pieces of 43 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:51,316 Speaker 1: his life as the single father of three young girls. 44 00:03:53,036 --> 00:03:59,756 Speaker 1: Or that's what he assumed. I'm Dana Goodyear and this 45 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:35,876 Speaker 1: is Lost Hills episode two, Quiet No Longer. Fred slept 46 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:39,356 Speaker 1: alone in his and Vernah's bed. In the morning, he'd 47 00:04:39,396 --> 00:04:42,436 Speaker 1: have the awful task of telling Verna's daughter Kim, and 48 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: his daughters Heidi and Kirsten that Verna and Doug would 49 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: not be coming home. They remember it how he sat 50 00:04:50,116 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: them down and started methodically going through it. Yeah, he 51 00:04:54,796 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 1: told us. And it was hard because it's like hearing 52 00:04:59,636 --> 00:05:02,716 Speaker 1: a story that you do not want to know the 53 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 1: ending two. And he didn't just start off. He started 54 00:05:06,276 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 1: off telling us that they were out on the boat 55 00:05:10,356 --> 00:05:15,676 Speaker 1: and the dog had jumped into the water. But it's 56 00:05:15,756 --> 00:05:18,036 Speaker 1: you know, we're just waiting. He didn't just come out 57 00:05:18,036 --> 00:05:20,476 Speaker 1: and say it. And then you know. He told us 58 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 1: it was shocking. That's Heidi. We met up over the 59 00:05:25,196 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: summer at Heidi's house in Colorado. Kirsten was there too, 60 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 1: and so was Kim. Fred they said, had gone through 61 00:05:32,716 --> 00:05:36,436 Speaker 1: the story in order, the Dog, the Birds, the dory, 62 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:41,356 Speaker 1: overturning the attempts at CPR. Here's Kim, but he did 63 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:44,036 Speaker 1: start from the beginning of what had happened and walked 64 00:05:44,116 --> 00:05:48,876 Speaker 1: us through each step and then told us that they 65 00:05:48,916 --> 00:05:57,796 Speaker 1: were God. The three sisters are incredibly close. Add to that, 66 00:05:57,876 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 1: they all look a lot alike. Even though Kim, Verna's 67 00:06:01,396 --> 00:06:04,316 Speaker 1: daughter from her first marriage, is not blood related to 68 00:06:04,396 --> 00:06:09,676 Speaker 1: Heidi and Kirsten, the similarities are uncanny. Same straight, dark hair, 69 00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:15,236 Speaker 1: same long oval faces, same vivid dark eyes. Oh, people 70 00:06:15,316 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 1: have asked if we're triplets. I mean high and I 71 00:06:17,476 --> 00:06:20,116 Speaker 1: get twins all the time, and then when the three 72 00:06:20,116 --> 00:06:23,756 Speaker 1: of us are together they ask if for triplets. Kim 73 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 1: says this was going on even back when Vernon Doug 74 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: were alive. And then there were times when my mom 75 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 1: would take us out and she might have like all 76 00:06:34,756 --> 00:06:36,796 Speaker 1: four of us, and somehow it would come up that 77 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 1: we were a blended family, you know, in the very beginning, 78 00:06:39,676 --> 00:06:44,116 Speaker 1: and then who were the two biological siblings? And I 79 00:06:44,156 --> 00:06:46,116 Speaker 1: think a lot of times it was sometimes was it 80 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 1: you and Doug? Doug and I would get matched the time. 81 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:53,396 Speaker 1: It's strange, but the sisters remember that time right after 82 00:06:53,476 --> 00:06:58,476 Speaker 1: Vernon Doug died as weirdly sweet, the three girls and 83 00:06:58,516 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 1: Fred at home eating food dropped off by the neighbor ladies, 84 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 1: figuring out how to cope. I have a lot of 85 00:07:05,636 --> 00:07:09,516 Speaker 1: good memories of the three of us and Dad and 86 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: the chokes about all the freaking castrolls. He would just 87 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 1: pull something out because all the women were bringing over casseroles, 88 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 1: so we're like, well, this is our dinner tonight. He 89 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:24,316 Speaker 1: rearranged their rooms so the girls could all sleep together. 90 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: Kim and I had a bedroom downstairs, and Kirsten and 91 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: Dug upstairs. And then after the accident, he built us 92 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:34,916 Speaker 1: a triple bunk bed so we were right off the kitchen, 93 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:38,436 Speaker 1: right next to his room, and I remember just being 94 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:40,396 Speaker 1: in there one time and he was in the kitchen 95 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 1: doing the dishes, like listening to Divo and just like 96 00:07:43,916 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 1: singing along. It was like another little lifetime of happiness 97 00:07:49,036 --> 00:07:52,236 Speaker 1: because I felt like we all got it together and 98 00:07:52,316 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 1: we were like, you know, a family again, the little 99 00:08:12,196 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 1: lifetime wouldn't couldn't last. And I still don't remember the 100 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 1: timeline of when we didn't know they were men coming 101 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:27,636 Speaker 1: to talk to my dad periodically and we didn't know 102 00:08:28,316 --> 00:08:32,236 Speaker 1: what that was about. The men coming to see Fred 103 00:08:32,276 --> 00:08:37,436 Speaker 1: were detectives from the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. They 104 00:08:37,476 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 1: specialized in homicides. Fred Railer is a waterman. Before prison, 105 00:09:05,596 --> 00:09:08,636 Speaker 1: the water was his life, which is kind of surprising 106 00:09:08,796 --> 00:09:12,996 Speaker 1: given where he grew up in Centerville, Indiana. You know, 107 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:19,076 Speaker 1: that's funny. I was always interested in water. As a kid. 108 00:09:19,276 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: He became obsessed with the new sport of scuba diving. 109 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: My parents put a pool in, which was sort of 110 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:29,356 Speaker 1: rare back in Indiana in the days. It was very helpful, 111 00:09:29,516 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 1: and I actually bought a scuba tank and a regulator 112 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:38,596 Speaker 1: after I read some of Jocastos stuff and watched him 113 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:43,436 Speaker 1: on television. So I taught myself to swim on around 114 00:09:43,516 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: and clean the pool without killing myself. And so that's 115 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:53,356 Speaker 1: basically how I really got fascinated with it. Later during college, 116 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:57,676 Speaker 1: he taught swimming. When I was at Purdue, one of 117 00:09:57,716 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 1: my electives was water safety instructors, so they actually taught 118 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 1: us the Red Cross methods for teaching swimming, and when 119 00:10:07,916 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 1: I came back, actually did swimming lessons in our pool 120 00:10:11,876 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And then when I left, 121 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 1: I left my Red Cross hat and instruction books, and 122 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:24,516 Speaker 1: my mother started teaching swimming and she taught swimming for 123 00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:28,236 Speaker 1: several years. After college, he got his job at Point 124 00:10:28,276 --> 00:10:31,636 Speaker 1: Magoo working as an engineer for the Navy, and the 125 00:10:31,796 --> 00:10:34,476 Speaker 1: Navy sent him to as scuba school in San Diego. 126 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:38,596 Speaker 1: The reason for diving was most of our trouble was 127 00:10:38,636 --> 00:10:42,356 Speaker 1: with stuff underwater. It would either leaked, or it wasn't 128 00:10:42,356 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 1: connected right, or you know, something was going wrong. So 129 00:10:46,756 --> 00:10:49,916 Speaker 1: they sent me basically to scuba school, and then that 130 00:10:49,956 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 1: allowed me to work with Navy diver to help install 131 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:56,716 Speaker 1: things and also take pictures of them, and you just 132 00:10:56,716 --> 00:10:59,916 Speaker 1: see what was going on. The Navy started sending him 133 00:10:59,956 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: to the Pacific Missile Range Facility on Kauai. They actually 134 00:11:04,036 --> 00:11:07,516 Speaker 1: had an underwater range, which is like a series of 135 00:11:07,556 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 1: microphones spread out underwater and they can track surface ships 136 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 1: and submarines and things. Fred oriented his whole life around 137 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:20,716 Speaker 1: the water for a while. He even lived on a 138 00:11:20,716 --> 00:11:24,236 Speaker 1: houseboat called home in the Channel Islands Marina in Oxnard. 139 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:27,676 Speaker 1: He had a little side business there cleaning the bottoms 140 00:11:27,676 --> 00:11:31,076 Speaker 1: of sailboats for race days. That's where he met one 141 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:34,036 Speaker 1: of the winningest skippers in the harbor, Dick felt On. 142 00:11:35,116 --> 00:11:38,156 Speaker 1: So we did crazy things for sport. We had a 143 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 1: friend who was a Navy pilot on helicopters, and we 144 00:11:41,796 --> 00:11:45,276 Speaker 1: used to go to San Nicholas Island, which was sixty 145 00:11:45,276 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 1: miles offshore, and I could do some jobs out there 146 00:11:49,796 --> 00:11:52,876 Speaker 1: because we had some weather stuff out there, So I'd 147 00:11:52,916 --> 00:11:55,396 Speaker 1: go out there on the weekend and he would actually 148 00:11:55,476 --> 00:11:58,636 Speaker 1: drop us out of the helicopter in really nice spots 149 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 1: where we could get lobster and things like that. The 150 00:12:03,476 --> 00:12:07,756 Speaker 1: Channel Islands were Fred's playground before they became the place 151 00:12:07,876 --> 00:12:18,596 Speaker 1: his wife and steps on died. One of the things 152 00:12:18,636 --> 00:12:21,476 Speaker 1: the detectives from Santa Barbara were struggling to figure out 153 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 1: was how someone with Fred's water experience had failed to 154 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:29,036 Speaker 1: save a child in a life preserver. They first showed 155 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:31,716 Speaker 1: up at Sea Level Drive five days after Verna and 156 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:35,996 Speaker 1: Doug died. It was eleven am on Wednesday, January seventh, 157 00:12:36,476 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 1: the day Fred had scheduled Verna and Doug's creamations. Fred 158 00:12:40,916 --> 00:12:48,396 Speaker 1: greeted them cordially. I thank both of your names. Their 159 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:52,796 Speaker 1: names were Claude Tuller and Fred Ray. Ray did most 160 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:56,196 Speaker 1: of the talking. He gave the impression that the last 161 00:12:56,196 --> 00:12:59,116 Speaker 1: place he wanted to be was in Malibu bothering a 162 00:12:59,156 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 1: grieving husband. He was reassuring, if disingenuous. He failed to 163 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:09,516 Speaker 1: mention that he had a taper quarter running living explain 164 00:13:09,596 --> 00:13:15,756 Speaker 1: this Tokay. Santa Cruz Island, Ray said, was part of 165 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County, so the deaths were in their jurisdiction. 166 00:13:20,596 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 1: Our problem is this is that we were we received 167 00:13:24,036 --> 00:13:27,636 Speaker 1: a phone call because we're supposed to ski because it 168 00:13:27,676 --> 00:13:31,036 Speaker 1: was in Santa Barbara County. He was going to need 169 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 1: Fred's help clearing up a few murky details. To be 170 00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: honest with you, Fred, we really don't know what much 171 00:13:38,716 --> 00:13:43,316 Speaker 1: about what's going on, and we have no idea of well, 172 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:45,276 Speaker 1: I can't say we had no idea. We do have 173 00:13:45,356 --> 00:13:50,276 Speaker 1: an idea of what happened out at the island, but 174 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: everything is really sketchy. So, uh, we're kind of like 175 00:13:55,876 --> 00:14:02,076 Speaker 1: thrown into it after the fact. We don't know Yah, Yeah, 176 00:14:02,356 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 1: how it was ruled. If it's accidental or if it's 177 00:14:05,876 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 1: intentional or whatever. We don't know that parts we know 178 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: it certainly looks like it it was accidental, and so 179 00:14:16,316 --> 00:14:22,236 Speaker 1: we we are only looking into it to ascertain what 180 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: the circumstances or what happened. If you understand Detective Ray said, 181 00:14:29,516 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: it certainly looks like it was accidental. That's because there 182 00:14:33,156 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: was barely any physical evidence, just Fred's story and a 183 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,956 Speaker 1: whole lot of head scratchers. The only thing that I 184 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 1: would suggest that maybe we do is so you know, 185 00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 1: remind you that that if if there's anything wrong with 186 00:14:54,956 --> 00:14:58,596 Speaker 1: this at all, that you know you have certain rights too. 187 00:14:59,956 --> 00:15:03,196 Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's necessary at that point, 188 00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:08,516 Speaker 1: but certainly I would want to make your work every 189 00:15:08,556 --> 00:15:11,276 Speaker 1: every that you have. Plus, I'm sure there's going to 190 00:15:11,436 --> 00:15:14,836 Speaker 1: he mentioned that there might be some civil problems associated 191 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: with the drownings. But I'm sure that there's gonna be 192 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:19,396 Speaker 1: a lot of legal things that you're going to have to, 193 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:26,636 Speaker 1: you know, consult with, don't you think, say you read 194 00:15:26,716 --> 00:15:30,356 Speaker 1: Fred his Miranda rights, I should remind you that you 195 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:33,796 Speaker 1: do have the way right to remain silent, and anything 196 00:15:33,836 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 1: you say cannon will be used against you for a 197 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:41,236 Speaker 1: while amazingly, Fred went ahead with the interview without his 198 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:51,996 Speaker 1: lawyer again just for awareness. You know, I'm Fred. It's 199 00:15:52,036 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 1: gonna really it will be difficult to talk about this, 200 00:15:56,876 --> 00:16:00,196 Speaker 1: I remarked when I I first heard about on the 201 00:16:00,476 --> 00:16:04,996 Speaker 1: on the movies want a Transity. Fred seemed eager to 202 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 1: please or form a rapport with the detectives. You know, 203 00:16:10,156 --> 00:16:15,756 Speaker 1: we've had a service for both of them Monday, and 204 00:16:15,836 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 1: we had friends over afterwards, and a lot of my 205 00:16:18,596 --> 00:16:22,596 Speaker 1: friends are really into sailing and the ocean, and all 206 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:26,836 Speaker 1: those things were marked over and over that how many 207 00:16:26,836 --> 00:16:30,476 Speaker 1: times have you dumped a boat? And everybody just got 208 00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:33,836 Speaker 1: a little angry and got back in and everything was fine, 209 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:37,556 Speaker 1: he said. Doug, whom he referred to as his son, 210 00:16:38,236 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 1: was very comfortable in the water. That's part of the 211 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 1: things that I find, you know, as perverse as it is, 212 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: is that my son was a good swimmer. He had 213 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:54,556 Speaker 1: just mastered standing up on a boogie board. I mean 214 00:16:54,596 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 1: he's small, He was a small boy, but very agile, 215 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 1: and it was a good swimmer. He was practically babbling 216 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: answering questions the detectives hadn't even asked. But I think 217 00:17:08,356 --> 00:17:10,316 Speaker 1: part of the thing that got him, was the fact 218 00:17:10,356 --> 00:17:12,756 Speaker 1: that he was wearing a life jacket, that he was 219 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: trapped underneath the boat. Cool was he talked him to 220 00:17:15,876 --> 00:17:19,196 Speaker 1: the boat. Well, and again that's something that I can 221 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:24,236 Speaker 1: only surmise because initially I was trapped up the boat. 222 00:17:24,556 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: They had a camera and the camera strapped got hooked 223 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:33,756 Speaker 1: in the door locked. I drew a picture of that. 224 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's familiar with the boat. It 225 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:41,196 Speaker 1: was a sixteen foot shock rolling doory. Yeah, I saw 226 00:17:41,276 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 1: the boat, Yes, I did. Next, Ray wanted to know 227 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:50,156 Speaker 1: about any objects that were in the boat with them, 228 00:17:50,516 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 1: clues that could corroborate the locations in his story or 229 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:57,556 Speaker 1: work to contradict them. Did you have anything in the 230 00:17:57,636 --> 00:18:02,916 Speaker 1: boat other than than the three of you, I mean, 231 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: any were you carry and saying which is or cults 232 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 1: or no we had The answer was no. But Fred 233 00:18:12,196 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 1: took the question as an invitation to back all the 234 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:19,876 Speaker 1: way up to the purchase of his sailboat months earlier. Well, 235 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:22,476 Speaker 1: let me let me go back. I guess the easiest 236 00:18:22,516 --> 00:18:29,956 Speaker 1: thing is to really start in the beginning about September 237 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 1: August or September of last year. We really had a 238 00:18:35,036 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 1: desire to get a boat. We thought we went we 239 00:18:38,996 --> 00:18:40,876 Speaker 1: were to a point where we could really take off 240 00:18:40,876 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 1: and do some sailing. As it sounded like he wanted 241 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:47,876 Speaker 1: the detectives to be happy for him. We just felt 242 00:18:47,916 --> 00:18:53,596 Speaker 1: so fortunate, I mean, so it was really just like 243 00:18:53,676 --> 00:18:55,756 Speaker 1: a real gream come true that we could get the boat. 244 00:18:57,036 --> 00:19:02,636 Speaker 1: And then we spent just about every weekend sailing or 245 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 1: initially just day sailing or with friends, then finally going 246 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,756 Speaker 1: out to the island, and he made an er trips 247 00:19:09,756 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 1: out there. Then he started talking about Lady the beagle. 248 00:19:15,716 --> 00:19:21,356 Speaker 1: We had just gotten a dog about maybe a month. 249 00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:24,036 Speaker 1: I'd have to look at the records, but maybe a month. 250 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:27,716 Speaker 1: For two months ago, the whole family want a dog, 251 00:19:27,796 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 1: and I was sort of against the dog one because 252 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:31,996 Speaker 1: we had a boat and we had four children. I 253 00:19:32,036 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 1: felt they could ted each other. They really needed it 254 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 1: and we didn't need something else that they care of. 255 00:19:36,796 --> 00:19:39,156 Speaker 1: But they won, and we got a little beagle puppy, 256 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 1: and we had taken her in the car and we'd 257 00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:44,636 Speaker 1: taken her up and spent the night on the boat 258 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:48,516 Speaker 1: that we never had her out. So one of the 259 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:51,356 Speaker 1: reasons for the trip was one my parents were here. 260 00:19:51,396 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: From the end, I seem like I'm rambling. So we 261 00:19:57,716 --> 00:20:01,476 Speaker 1: were all aboard and we got underway in the morning. 262 00:20:02,076 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 1: My mother actually sailed the boat all the way over, 263 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 1: and then we put the sails down, and then my 264 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: wife takes the both handles the helm at that point, 265 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 1: and we put down a bow anchor and the stem anchor. 266 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:24,276 Speaker 1: The detectives let him talk and talk until he pretty 267 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 1: much talked himself out. I think I'm going to pick 268 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:30,916 Speaker 1: some tea. Can I get you some instant coffee? I 269 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:36,476 Speaker 1: got the happy Fred needed a break. What little coffee 270 00:20:36,596 --> 00:20:48,796 Speaker 1: wasn't hurt. The hidden tape recorder capturing the interrogation wasn't 271 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,676 Speaker 1: the only secret Ray and Tyler were keeping from Fred. 272 00:20:52,956 --> 00:20:56,036 Speaker 1: Doug Inverna had not, in fact been cremated that day. 273 00:20:57,476 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to Fred, their bodies were sitting in cold storage 274 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:04,596 Speaker 1: at the mortuary, waiting for a deputy from Santa Barbara 275 00:21:04,836 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: to pick them up. How to Judge's search warrant, that 276 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:12,396 Speaker 1: deputy would bring the bodies back to Santa Barbara, where 277 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:17,516 Speaker 1: they'd each undergo a second secret autopsy, which would tell 278 00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:22,116 Speaker 1: a very different story about what happened at Bird Rock. 279 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 1: After Fred returned with the coffee, Detective Ray took charge 280 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 1: of the conversation. Basically, you're not sure what time it 281 00:22:12,716 --> 00:22:19,516 Speaker 1: was when you went out in the d from your boat. No, 282 00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:25,276 Speaker 1: the best you know it was after lunch. You know, 283 00:22:25,276 --> 00:22:27,716 Speaker 1: it's probably and again it's probably between one and one 284 00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 1: thirty somewhere under there, okay. And then you rolled out 285 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:37,156 Speaker 1: and buy the rocks. From the point where you had 286 00:22:37,196 --> 00:22:40,636 Speaker 1: the accident, you could still see your boat where it 287 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:44,436 Speaker 1: was anchored. Yes, how far off of that rock would 288 00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:49,836 Speaker 1: you see? Your word, Probably twenty to thirty feet. When 289 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:54,396 Speaker 1: the accident had Fred had told the detectives that the 290 00:22:54,436 --> 00:22:56,836 Speaker 1: purpose of being in the open ocean in the doory 291 00:22:56,996 --> 00:23:00,116 Speaker 1: was to take a picture Doug and Lady with bird, 292 00:23:00,196 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 1: rock and Perseverance. How are you going to take the 293 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:09,796 Speaker 1: picture now you wanted the picture? Yeah, where I was 294 00:23:09,836 --> 00:23:11,676 Speaker 1: going to be sitting. I had been sitting on the 295 00:23:11,716 --> 00:23:14,796 Speaker 1: floor on the boat, or and my son was going 296 00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:16,956 Speaker 1: to be holding the dog, and the picture would have 297 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:20,556 Speaker 1: been looking from this point over his shoulder. You would 298 00:23:20,556 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 1: have seen the rocks and the birds. He would have 299 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:25,196 Speaker 1: been in the foreground the rocks and the birds, and 300 00:23:25,196 --> 00:23:28,436 Speaker 1: then Perseverance would have been in the background. But that 301 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:31,476 Speaker 1: didn't really square. Was that kind of close to take 302 00:23:31,956 --> 00:23:35,516 Speaker 1: a picture of the rock. I mean, just because of 303 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: the size of the rock, even that kind of close 304 00:23:38,596 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 1: to get it into photograph, I don't really understand. I 305 00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:45,076 Speaker 1: guess your question. In other words, if you're going to 306 00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:51,356 Speaker 1: take a picture of of say he's your son, you know, 307 00:23:51,396 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 1: I am you sitting here with a camera and you 308 00:23:54,636 --> 00:23:56,996 Speaker 1: want the bolt in the background and the rock to 309 00:23:57,076 --> 00:24:04,756 Speaker 1: the side. Well, to see that it's a rock, if 310 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 1: you're so close to it's all, even the seas it's 311 00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:10,036 Speaker 1: a big wall, well you have to, I guess, really 312 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 1: look through the camera and see what the field of 313 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:16,476 Speaker 1: you is in the camera, because it's not a wide angle, 314 00:24:16,516 --> 00:24:19,516 Speaker 1: it's a it's a narrower type of her thing. I 315 00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 1: was basically listening to her as to where she wanted 316 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:25,036 Speaker 1: the boat. We had rode out and we had stopped, 317 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: and Verna said, okay, so this should work. Thank we're 318 00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,636 Speaker 1: rewards this lot of work here. So I brought the 319 00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:38,596 Speaker 1: oars in the boat and I slipped off the seat 320 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 1: down into the floor so her back would have been 321 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:48,036 Speaker 1: towards us here, and she was sitting on a cushion, 322 00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 1: and she had another cushion up in this v excuse Fred, 323 00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:05,676 Speaker 1: the newly single dad was juggling. Yeah, all right, No 324 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 1: she went with grandma. Wow. I don't know what they 325 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:25,196 Speaker 1: would have the tell okay, oh, so she would have 326 00:25:25,236 --> 00:25:28,276 Speaker 1: been sitting with her back to us. Ray wanted to 327 00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: know about Doug's condition after the doory flipped. What was 328 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 1: his clothes? His eyes were open? What's he breathing? Could 329 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: you too? No, he wasn't breathing, just flity, you know, 330 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:48,876 Speaker 1: it was just running from his mouth. He wasn't he 331 00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:58,396 Speaker 1: wasn't shaking, he wasn't wretching. What color was involmit again? Yellow? 332 00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:02,756 Speaker 1: It's almost like you could see the corn chips and 333 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,796 Speaker 1: stuff that he had had for lunch. Detective Ray knew 334 00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:10,116 Speaker 1: Fred had a lot of ocean experience. To the ocean here, 335 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 1: you've been around the ocean boast you are so. Came 336 00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:20,036 Speaker 1: to California in nineteen sixty six and my first job, 337 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:27,036 Speaker 1: the Navy appointment. Do basically been near the water and 338 00:26:27,876 --> 00:26:35,476 Speaker 1: ever since. Was this your first sailboat? It was my 339 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:39,716 Speaker 1: first sailboat. I'd had two houseboats before that, and I 340 00:26:40,276 --> 00:26:45,276 Speaker 1: crewed on a number of sailboats, the biggest. The interview 341 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:48,196 Speaker 1: went on for hours until it was six o'clock at night. 342 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 1: The detectives were still asking Fred questions while the kids 343 00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:59,236 Speaker 1: were popping in and out. I'll be up. By the 344 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 1: time the detectives were done with Fred, the tone had shifted. 345 00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 1: They were less reassuring and Fred was less chummy. Somehow, 346 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 1: we need to figure out if there's a way we 347 00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:16,796 Speaker 1: could figure out to make sure that there was no 348 00:27:16,876 --> 00:27:20,156 Speaker 1: foul play or easy like that. This Ray handed the 349 00:27:20,156 --> 00:27:24,356 Speaker 1: baton to his colleague Claude Teller. Well, it's a couple 350 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:33,876 Speaker 1: of ways. If you're willing to the polygraph examination. Sure, yeah, 351 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:39,276 Speaker 1: I think I would probably have to talk to my 352 00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 1: attorney and then find out just exactly what, you know, 353 00:27:43,516 --> 00:27:46,876 Speaker 1: what really I should be doing before you take a polograph. 354 00:27:47,356 --> 00:27:50,516 Speaker 1: I think I really and I really need to talk 355 00:27:50,516 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 1: to him before, you know, just Lord knows, you're sure 356 00:27:55,116 --> 00:27:59,636 Speaker 1: going through a lot. Now, we understand. We were just hoping, 357 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 1: because you know, there's no way to tell one we 358 00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:05,956 Speaker 1: or another right now. We're just hoping there's some way 359 00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:11,316 Speaker 1: that we could make it easy, shortened everything happen, you know. 360 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,356 Speaker 1: I think sometimes almost come down to that anyway, because 361 00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:20,316 Speaker 1: I don't know if Verna and dougeat Insurance insurance. So 362 00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:24,756 Speaker 1: that's what this was all about. Yes, so we'll have 363 00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 1: to we'll have to come to some type of resolution. 364 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 1: They're very likely before they'll settle its way. But were 365 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:40,076 Speaker 1: they both insured? Yeah, our family was insure. Has it happened. 366 00:28:40,236 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 1: There were life insurance policies on both Verna and Doug 367 00:28:44,436 --> 00:28:47,996 Speaker 1: fresh ones. They've been finalized in the weeks before their deaths, 368 00:28:49,156 --> 00:28:53,276 Speaker 1: and the policies were substantial, with an additional payout in 369 00:28:53,316 --> 00:29:13,996 Speaker 1: the case of accidental death. The second secret autopsies would 370 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:16,516 Speaker 1: never have happened had it not been for a Malibu 371 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:20,236 Speaker 1: woman named Candy Henman. Candy had been a close friend 372 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:24,116 Speaker 1: of Fred's first wife, Jean, and she had serious concerns 373 00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:27,236 Speaker 1: about Fred. I wasn't at liberty to say anything to 374 00:29:27,276 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 1: anybody because it's such a small town and small group 375 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 1: of people, and I didn't want to make some accusation 376 00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:38,716 Speaker 1: or say anything that. I just didn't want to do that, 377 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:42,316 Speaker 1: So I kept quiet about it and just thought things 378 00:29:42,316 --> 00:29:46,956 Speaker 1: would all things would unravel and everybody figure it out. 379 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,636 Speaker 1: But when she heard that Verna and Doug had drowned, 380 00:29:51,116 --> 00:29:54,516 Speaker 1: she was beside herself. That's when I said, I am 381 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:58,076 Speaker 1: quiet no longer I don't care if I become persona 382 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:01,036 Speaker 1: non grata for all the community. I was not going 383 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: to keep quiet. Candy started making calls. It was very urgent. 384 00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:10,156 Speaker 1: They were scheduled to be cremated, and I said, hold 385 00:30:10,276 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 1: hold it, hold everything. You got to do some kind 386 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:19,276 Speaker 1: of investigation. I think there was a murder committed. Kentty 387 00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 1: wasn't trying to gossip, burstling mud. She was on a crusade. 388 00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:27,276 Speaker 1: I was determined that day that I was going to 389 00:30:27,316 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 1: make sure that somebody hailed him accountable, somebody was going 390 00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:36,596 Speaker 1: to realize that there's a monster out there. Before they 391 00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:39,196 Speaker 1: closed the case on Verna and Doug, she told the 392 00:30:39,236 --> 00:30:45,396 Speaker 1: cops they needed to find out what happened to Fred's 393 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:58,436 Speaker 1: first wife. Coming up on the next episode of Lost 394 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 1: tells marriage in Malibu looked a little different in the seventies, 395 00:31:03,636 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 1: but there there there was a group who, like me, 396 00:31:07,436 --> 00:31:11,076 Speaker 1: had never slept with any body else before we got married. 397 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:15,036 Speaker 1: It was just you just didn't do it. And so 398 00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 1: there was a little bit of a freedom for some 399 00:31:18,876 --> 00:31:24,716 Speaker 1: people to you know, get intimate with other people. It 400 00:31:24,836 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: was open marriage, and it ended in a couple of divorces. 401 00:31:29,836 --> 00:31:34,156 Speaker 1: That's next in episode three, The Shallow End, Part one. 402 00:31:37,116 --> 00:31:40,476 Speaker 1: Lost Hills is written and reported by Me Dana Goodyear. 403 00:31:40,876 --> 00:31:44,036 Speaker 1: It's created by me and Ben Adair and produced by 404 00:31:44,076 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 1: Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin plas and 405 00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:50,556 Speaker 1: you can hear the whole season add free and get 406 00:31:50,596 --> 00:31:54,076 Speaker 1: early access to the final two episodes. Find Pushkin plos 407 00:31:54,116 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 1: on the Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts, or 408 00:31:56,596 --> 00:31:58,076 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm.