1 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:31,826 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The day of their deaths, January 2, 1981, Verna 2 00:00:31,886 --> 00:00:35,166 Speaker 1: and Doug's bodies were flown by helicopter back to the mainland. 3 00:00:36,286 --> 00:00:38,966 Speaker 1: The next day, they were autopsied by the acting medical 4 00:00:39,006 --> 00:00:41,846 Speaker 1: examiner of Ventura County, Dr. Craig Duncan. 5 00:00:45,956 --> 00:00:46,386 Speaker 2: Hi, Dr. Duncan. 6 00:00:46,396 --> 00:00:47,226 Speaker 3: Dana, good year. 7 00:00:47,246 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 4: Nice to meet you. 8 00:00:49,226 --> 00:00:52,166 Speaker 1: I met Dr. Duncan recently at his home in Ventura, 9 00:00:52,646 --> 00:00:56,226 Speaker 1: which is full of California oil paintings and human skulls. 10 00:00:57,446 --> 00:01:00,246 Speaker 1: He's a psychiatrist now and wears a big opal ring. 11 00:01:00,786 --> 00:01:03,916 Speaker 1: But back in 1981, he was a forensic pathologist. 12 00:01:04,836 --> 00:01:09,236 Speaker 3: Graduated from medical school in 1969. Then I went to 13 00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:13,976 Speaker 3: Baltimore to complete my training under Russell Fisher. who was 14 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:18,816 Speaker 3: really the grandfather of forensic pathology or a major figure. 15 00:01:18,836 --> 00:01:24,236 Speaker 1: He saw the case of Verna and Doug as uncomplicated. 16 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:30,116 Speaker 3: It's a standard autopsy of a standard drowning case and 17 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:37,526 Speaker 3: handled in that fashion with fairly fresh bodies and obvious 18 00:01:37,586 --> 00:01:46,276 Speaker 3: drowning results. There was clearly evidence of water drowning, lungs 19 00:01:46,336 --> 00:01:47,256 Speaker 3: being full of water. 20 00:01:48,496 --> 00:01:50,996 Speaker 1: I had the autopsy reports with me, and we went 21 00:01:51,036 --> 00:01:53,176 Speaker 1: through them together. It didn't take long. 22 00:01:54,946 --> 00:02:01,306 Speaker 3: Very little on Douglas' body in terms of external markings. 23 00:02:03,246 --> 00:02:05,186 Speaker 1: Let me see if I have Verna over here. So 24 00:02:06,146 --> 00:02:06,976 Speaker 1: this is Verna. 25 00:02:08,696 --> 00:02:10,156 Speaker 3: See, no trauma. 26 00:02:12,076 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 2: Very. 27 00:02:13,066 --> 00:02:17,046 Speaker 3: little evidence of any trauma at all on Verna's body. 28 00:02:18,066 --> 00:02:22,716 Speaker 3: Same with Douglas. Other than what I would anticipate in 29 00:02:22,756 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 3: a struggle to prevent one from drowning. 30 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:28,736 Speaker 1: Not a struggle with another human. 31 00:02:28,776 --> 00:02:30,016 Speaker 3: No, a struggle to survive. 32 00:02:30,036 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 2: Yeah. 33 00:02:31,756 --> 00:02:34,826 Speaker 1: Other than the injury of drowning, there were no injuries. 34 00:02:35,566 --> 00:02:38,386 Speaker 1: No indication that Verna or Doug had been attacked. 35 00:02:39,186 --> 00:02:43,466 Speaker 3: And I contend that there was no evidence... a homicide 36 00:02:43,686 --> 00:02:48,246 Speaker 3: in the initial autopsies as evidenced by no assault wounds, 37 00:02:49,506 --> 00:02:52,906 Speaker 3: clubbing on the head with an oar, etc., and no 38 00:02:52,946 --> 00:02:57,426 Speaker 3: defense wounds, bruises, fractures on the arms, which would be 39 00:02:57,466 --> 00:03:01,776 Speaker 3: just human nature to do in the event of an attack. 40 00:03:03,256 --> 00:03:06,916 Speaker 1: It was simple, he said. No trauma, no assault of wounds, 41 00:03:07,596 --> 00:03:08,256 Speaker 1: no homicide. 42 00:03:09,256 --> 00:03:09,576 Speaker 2: Dr. 43 00:03:09,616 --> 00:03:16,316 Speaker 1: Duncan declared Verna and Doug's deaths Accidental. That determination freed Fred, 44 00:03:16,556 --> 00:03:19,456 Speaker 1: as next of kin, to proceed with his funerary plans. 45 00:03:20,796 --> 00:03:25,706 Speaker 1: They drowned on Friday. The autopsies happened on Saturday. On Monday, 46 00:03:25,926 --> 00:03:28,086 Speaker 1: he'd have a memorial for Verna and Doug at the 47 00:03:28,126 --> 00:03:31,246 Speaker 1: Malibu Methodist Church, followed by a reception at the house 48 00:03:31,326 --> 00:03:34,666 Speaker 1: on Sea Level Drive. Meanwhile, he arranged to have the 49 00:03:34,706 --> 00:03:37,966 Speaker 1: bodies moved to a mortuary in Los Angeles and scheduled 50 00:03:38,006 --> 00:03:42,856 Speaker 1: them to be cremated on Wednesday, January 7th. Then their 51 00:03:42,976 --> 00:03:46,236 Speaker 1: ashes would be scattered at sea, and Fred would begin 52 00:03:46,276 --> 00:03:49,546 Speaker 1: to put back the pieces of his life as the 53 00:03:49,586 --> 00:03:55,626 Speaker 1: single father of three young girls. Or that's what he assumed. 54 00:03:58,066 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: I'm Dana Goodyear, and this is Lost Hills. 55 00:04:01,696 --> 00:04:06,816 Speaker 2: Lost Hills. 56 00:04:28,086 --> 00:04:36,626 Speaker 1: Episode 2, Quiet No Longer. Fred slept alone in his 57 00:04:36,686 --> 00:04:39,986 Speaker 1: and Verna's bed. In the morning, he'd have the awful 58 00:04:40,066 --> 00:04:43,526 Speaker 1: task of telling Verna's daughter Kim and his daughters Heidi 59 00:04:43,546 --> 00:04:46,886 Speaker 1: and Kirsten that Verna and Doug would not be coming home. 60 00:04:48,346 --> 00:04:51,346 Speaker 1: They remember it, how he sat them down and started 61 00:04:51,426 --> 00:04:52,866 Speaker 1: methodically going through it. 62 00:04:52,886 --> 00:04:55,216 Speaker 4: Yeah, he told us. 63 00:04:55,896 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 5: He did. 64 00:04:57,256 --> 00:05:00,376 Speaker 6: And it was hard because it's like hearing a story 65 00:05:00,856 --> 00:05:03,446 Speaker 6: that you do not want to know the ending to. 66 00:05:03,926 --> 00:05:06,786 Speaker 6: And he didn't just start off. He started off telling 67 00:05:06,866 --> 00:05:11,686 Speaker 6: us that they were out on the boat and the 68 00:05:11,806 --> 00:05:16,056 Speaker 6: dog had jumped into the water. But it's, you know, 69 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:18,566 Speaker 6: we're just waiting. He didn't just come out and say it. 70 00:05:18,696 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 6: And then, you know, he told us. 71 00:05:20,536 --> 00:05:22,296 Speaker 2: It was shocking. 72 00:05:23,376 --> 00:05:26,106 Speaker 1: That's Heidi. We met up over the summer at Heidi's 73 00:05:26,126 --> 00:05:31,546 Speaker 1: house in Colorado. Kirsten was there, too, and so was Kim. Fred, 74 00:05:31,626 --> 00:05:34,826 Speaker 1: they said, had gone through the story in order. The dog, 75 00:05:35,176 --> 00:05:40,236 Speaker 1: the birds, the dory overturning, the attempts at CPR. Here's Kim. 76 00:05:40,256 --> 00:05:43,116 Speaker 7: It did start from the beginning of what had happened 77 00:05:43,156 --> 00:05:45,036 Speaker 7: and walked us through each step. 78 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:51,046 Speaker 8: And then told us that they were gone forever. 79 00:05:54,346 --> 00:05:58,056 Speaker 1: The three sisters are incredibly close. Add to that, they 80 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:01,616 Speaker 1: all look a lot alike. Even though Kim, Verna's daughter 81 00:06:01,656 --> 00:06:05,276 Speaker 1: from her first marriage, is not blood-related to Heidi and Kirsten. 82 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:10,676 Speaker 1: The similarities are uncanny. Same straight dark hair, same long 83 00:06:10,806 --> 00:06:13,286 Speaker 1: oval faces, same vivid dark eyes. 84 00:06:14,886 --> 00:06:17,206 Speaker 7: Oh, people have asked if we're triplets. I mean, Heidi 85 00:06:17,226 --> 00:06:19,866 Speaker 7: and I get twins all the time, and then when 86 00:06:19,886 --> 00:06:22,126 Speaker 7: the three of us are together, they ask if we're triplets. 87 00:06:23,556 --> 00:06:26,496 Speaker 1: Kim says this was going on even back when Verna 88 00:06:26,546 --> 00:06:27,546 Speaker 1: and Doug were alive. 89 00:06:28,726 --> 00:06:30,986 Speaker 7: And then there were times when my mom would take 90 00:06:31,066 --> 00:06:35,306 Speaker 7: us out, and she might have, like, all four of us. 91 00:06:35,466 --> 00:06:37,186 Speaker 7: And somehow it would come up that we were a 92 00:06:37,226 --> 00:06:39,066 Speaker 7: blended family, you know, in the very beginning. 93 00:06:39,086 --> 00:06:41,286 Speaker 6: It was a guessing game of who was who. 94 00:06:41,306 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 7: Who were the two biological siblings. And I think a 95 00:06:44,636 --> 00:06:46,716 Speaker 7: lot of times it was sometimes— was it you and Doug? 96 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:48,216 Speaker 6: Doug and I would get matched all the time. They 97 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 6: would get matched. 98 00:06:50,266 --> 00:06:53,406 Speaker 1: It's strange, but the sisters remember that time right after 99 00:06:53,466 --> 00:06:58,326 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug died as weirdly sweet. The three girls 100 00:06:58,386 --> 00:07:01,416 Speaker 1: and Fred, at home, eating food dropped off by the 101 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:03,616 Speaker 1: neighbor ladies, figuring out how to cope. 102 00:07:04,856 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 6: I have a lot of good memories of the three 103 00:07:07,656 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 6: of us and Dad. And the jokes about all the 104 00:07:11,216 --> 00:07:15,346 Speaker 6: freaking casseroles. He would just pull something out because all 105 00:07:15,366 --> 00:07:18,626 Speaker 6: the women were bringing over casseroles. So we're like, well, 106 00:07:18,666 --> 00:07:20,106 Speaker 6: this is our dinner tonight. 107 00:07:21,166 --> 00:07:24,306 Speaker 1: He rearranged their rooms so the girls could all sleep together. 108 00:07:25,456 --> 00:07:28,096 Speaker 6: Kim and I had a bedroom downstairs and Kirsten and 109 00:07:28,136 --> 00:07:32,016 Speaker 6: Doug upstairs. And then after the accident, he built us 110 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 6: a triple bunk bed. So we were right off the kitchen, 111 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:38,436 Speaker 6: right next to his room. And I remember just being 112 00:07:38,456 --> 00:07:40,406 Speaker 6: in there one time and he was in the kitchen 113 00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:43,886 Speaker 6: doing the dishes, like listening to Devo and just like 114 00:07:43,966 --> 00:07:48,116 Speaker 6: singing along. It was like another little lifetime of happiness. 115 00:07:48,136 --> 00:07:52,306 Speaker 6: Because I felt like we all got it together and 116 00:07:52,326 --> 00:07:55,726 Speaker 6: we were like, you know, a family again. 117 00:07:55,746 --> 00:08:14,806 Speaker 1: The little lifetime wouldn't, couldn't last. 118 00:08:15,646 --> 00:08:17,686 Speaker 6: And I still don't remember the timeline of. 119 00:08:19,366 --> 00:08:19,726 Speaker 9: When. 120 00:08:21,026 --> 00:08:23,726 Speaker 6: We didn't know they were men coming to talk to 121 00:08:23,766 --> 00:08:29,306 Speaker 6: my dad periodically. And we didn't know what that was about. 122 00:08:30,866 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: The men coming to see Fred were detectives from the 123 00:08:34,386 --> 00:08:39,976 Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. They specialized in homicides. Homicides. 124 00:09:02,256 --> 00:09:06,046 Speaker 1: Fred Raylor is a water man. Before prison, the water 125 00:09:06,066 --> 00:09:09,266 Speaker 1: was his life, which is kind of surprising given where 126 00:09:09,306 --> 00:09:11,826 Speaker 1: he grew up. in Centerville, Indiana. 127 00:09:12,786 --> 00:09:16,696 Speaker 9: You know, that's funny. I was always interested in water. 128 00:09:18,596 --> 00:09:21,176 Speaker 1: As a kid, he became obsessed with the new sport 129 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 1: of scuba diving. 130 00:09:22,896 --> 00:09:25,576 Speaker 9: My parents put a pool in, which was sort of 131 00:09:25,596 --> 00:09:29,356 Speaker 9: rare back in Indiana in the days. It was very helpful. 132 00:09:29,696 --> 00:09:34,176 Speaker 9: And I actually bought a scuba tank and a regulator 133 00:09:34,996 --> 00:09:38,376 Speaker 9: after I read some of Jacques Cousteau's stuff and watched 134 00:09:38,416 --> 00:09:43,086 Speaker 9: him on television. So I taught myself to swim on 135 00:09:43,126 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 9: around and clean the pool without killing myself. And so 136 00:09:48,496 --> 00:09:50,796 Speaker 9: that's basically how I really got fascinated with it. 137 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:54,296 Speaker 1: Later, during college, he taught swimming. 138 00:09:55,316 --> 00:09:58,816 Speaker 9: When I was at Purdue, one of my electives was 139 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:03,586 Speaker 9: water safety instructors. So they actually taught us the Red 140 00:10:03,686 --> 00:10:08,746 Speaker 9: Cross methods for teaching swimming. And when I came back, 141 00:10:08,766 --> 00:10:13,856 Speaker 9: I actually did swimming lessons in our pool for a 142 00:10:13,916 --> 00:10:17,456 Speaker 9: lot of people. And then when I left, I left 143 00:10:17,536 --> 00:10:21,366 Speaker 9: my Red Cross hat and instruction books, and my mother 144 00:10:21,396 --> 00:10:25,226 Speaker 9: started teaching swimming. And she taught swimming for several years. 145 00:10:26,386 --> 00:10:29,486 Speaker 1: After college, he got his job at Point Magoo. working 146 00:10:29,526 --> 00:10:32,386 Speaker 1: as an engineer for the Navy. And the Navy sent 147 00:10:32,446 --> 00:10:34,486 Speaker 1: him to its scuba school in San Diego. 148 00:10:34,506 --> 00:10:38,576 Speaker 9: The reason for diving was most of our trouble was 149 00:10:38,646 --> 00:10:42,316 Speaker 9: with stuff underwater. It would either leak or it wasn't 150 00:10:42,396 --> 00:10:46,456 Speaker 9: connected right or, you know, something was going wrong. So 151 00:10:46,816 --> 00:10:50,016 Speaker 9: they sent me basically to scuba school and then that 152 00:10:50,056 --> 00:10:53,436 Speaker 9: allowed me to work with Navy divers to help install 153 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:56,616 Speaker 9: things and also take pictures of them and, you know, 154 00:10:56,636 --> 00:10:57,666 Speaker 9: just see what was going on. 155 00:10:58,736 --> 00:11:01,276 Speaker 1: The Navy started sending him to the Pacific Missile Range 156 00:11:01,316 --> 00:11:02,696 Speaker 1: Facility on Kauai. 157 00:11:03,436 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 9: They actually have an underwater range, which is like a 158 00:11:06,986 --> 00:11:12,906 Speaker 9: series of microphones spread out underwater, and they can track 159 00:11:12,986 --> 00:11:15,286 Speaker 9: surface ships and submarines and things. 160 00:11:16,126 --> 00:11:19,826 Speaker 1: Fred oriented his whole life around the water. For a while, 161 00:11:19,906 --> 00:11:22,246 Speaker 1: he even lived on a houseboat called Home in the 162 00:11:22,286 --> 00:11:25,966 Speaker 1: Channel Islands Marina in Oxnard. He had a little side 163 00:11:25,996 --> 00:11:29,046 Speaker 1: business there, cleaning the bottoms of sailboats for race days. 164 00:11:30,086 --> 00:11:32,306 Speaker 1: That's where he met one of the winningest skippers in 165 00:11:32,346 --> 00:11:34,246 Speaker 1: the harbor, Dick Felthoen. 166 00:11:35,186 --> 00:11:38,226 Speaker 9: So we did crazy things for sport. We had a 167 00:11:38,266 --> 00:11:41,746 Speaker 9: friend who was a Navy pilot on helicopters, and we 168 00:11:41,806 --> 00:11:45,286 Speaker 9: used to go to San Nicolas Island, which was 60 169 00:11:45,286 --> 00:11:49,786 Speaker 9: miles offshore. And I could do some jobs out there 170 00:11:49,806 --> 00:11:52,846 Speaker 9: because we had some weather stuff out there, so I'd 171 00:11:52,886 --> 00:11:55,396 Speaker 9: go out there on the weekends. And he would actually 172 00:11:55,466 --> 00:11:58,626 Speaker 9: drop us out of the helicopter in really nice spots 173 00:11:58,666 --> 00:12:02,526 Speaker 9: where we could get lobster and things like that. 174 00:12:03,326 --> 00:12:07,426 Speaker 1: The Channel Islands were Fred's playground. Before they became the 175 00:12:07,466 --> 00:12:18,626 Speaker 1: place his wife and stepson died. One of the things 176 00:12:18,686 --> 00:12:21,446 Speaker 1: the detectives from Santa Barbara were struggling to figure out 177 00:12:21,846 --> 00:12:25,326 Speaker 1: was how someone with Fred's water experience had failed to 178 00:12:25,386 --> 00:12:29,066 Speaker 1: save a child in a life preserver. They first showed 179 00:12:29,126 --> 00:12:31,706 Speaker 1: up at Sea Level Drive five days after Verna and 180 00:12:31,726 --> 00:12:35,946 Speaker 1: Doug died. It was 11 a.m. on Wednesday, January 7th, 181 00:12:36,546 --> 00:12:40,866 Speaker 1: the day Fred had scheduled Verna and Doug's cremations. Fred 182 00:12:40,926 --> 00:12:51,186 Speaker 1: greeted them cordially. Their names were Claude Tuller and Fred Ray. 183 00:12:52,166 --> 00:12:55,436 Speaker 1: Ray did most of the talking. He gave the impression 184 00:12:55,496 --> 00:12:58,236 Speaker 1: that the last place he wanted to be was in Malibu, 185 00:12:58,636 --> 00:13:04,346 Speaker 1: bothering a grieving husband. He was reassuring, if disingenuous. He 186 00:13:04,406 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 1: failed to mention that he had a tape recorder running. 187 00:13:13,576 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 1: Santa Cruz Island, Ray said, was part of Santa Barbara County, 188 00:13:17,256 --> 00:13:19,076 Speaker 1: so the deaths were in their jurisdiction. 189 00:13:20,666 --> 00:13:24,446 Speaker 10: Our problem is this, is that we received a phone 190 00:13:24,506 --> 00:13:27,726 Speaker 10: call because we're supposed to investigate it because it was 191 00:13:27,806 --> 00:13:29,166 Speaker 10: in Santa Barbara County. 192 00:13:30,306 --> 00:13:32,406 Speaker 1: He was going to need Fred's help clearing up a 193 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:33,646 Speaker 1: few murky details. 194 00:13:35,396 --> 00:13:36,236 Speaker 2: To be honest with. 195 00:13:36,136 --> 00:13:39,916 Speaker 10: You, Fred, we really don't know much about what's going on. 196 00:13:39,936 --> 00:13:44,076 Speaker 10: We have no idea of, well, I can't say we 197 00:13:44,096 --> 00:13:47,216 Speaker 10: have no idea. We do have an idea of what 198 00:13:47,256 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 10: happened out. 199 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 2: At the island. Hmm. But everything is really sketchy. 200 00:13:52,536 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 10: So we're kind of like thrown into it after the fact. 201 00:13:58,316 --> 00:13:59,696 Speaker 2: We don't know. 202 00:14:02,386 --> 00:14:05,486 Speaker 10: How it was ruled, if it was accidental or if 203 00:14:05,506 --> 00:14:07,926 Speaker 10: it was intentional or whatever. We don't know that. 204 00:14:08,926 --> 00:14:09,606 Speaker 2: So far as. 205 00:14:09,606 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 5: We know, it certainly looks like it was accidental. And 206 00:14:16,016 --> 00:14:19,016 Speaker 5: so we are only looking into it. 207 00:14:19,686 --> 00:14:25,326 Speaker 10: To ascertain what the circumstances were and what happened, if 208 00:14:25,346 --> 00:14:26,406 Speaker 10: you understand what I mean. 209 00:14:28,146 --> 00:14:31,336 Speaker 1: Detective Ray said it certainly looks like it was accidental. 210 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 1: That's because there was barely any physical evidence, just Fred's 211 00:14:36,536 --> 00:14:39,096 Speaker 1: story and a whole lot of head-scratchers. 212 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:45,296 Speaker 10: The only thing that I would suggest that maybe we 213 00:14:45,336 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 10: do is. 214 00:14:50,426 --> 00:14:54,886 Speaker 10: You know, remind you that if there's anything wrong with 215 00:14:54,946 --> 00:14:58,546 Speaker 10: this at all, that, you know, you have certain rights too. 216 00:15:00,026 --> 00:15:03,126 Speaker 2: So I don't know if it's necessary at that. 217 00:15:02,946 --> 00:15:08,126 Speaker 10: Point, but certainly I would want to make you aware 218 00:15:08,146 --> 00:15:09,906 Speaker 10: of every right that you have. 219 00:15:09,986 --> 00:15:11,406 Speaker 2: Plus, I'm sure there's going to be. 220 00:15:11,406 --> 00:15:14,806 Speaker 1: He mentioned that there might be some civil problems associated 221 00:15:14,846 --> 00:15:15,546 Speaker 1: with the drownings. 222 00:15:16,206 --> 00:15:17,866 Speaker 10: But I'm sure that there's going to be a lot 223 00:15:17,886 --> 00:15:19,406 Speaker 10: of legal things that you're going to have to do. 224 00:15:21,156 --> 00:15:26,176 Speaker 2: Consult with, don't you think, Paul? More than likely, yeah. 225 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:28,016 Speaker 1: He read Fred his Miranda rights. 226 00:15:28,616 --> 00:15:32,016 Speaker 5: I should remind you that you do have the right 227 00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:35,106 Speaker 5: to remain silent, and anything you say can and will 228 00:15:35,156 --> 00:15:37,006 Speaker 5: be used against you to court a law. 229 00:15:38,026 --> 00:15:41,666 Speaker 1: Amazingly, Fred went ahead with the interview, without his lawyer. 230 00:15:41,686 --> 00:15:51,976 Speaker 10: Again, that's just for your awareness. I know Fred, it's 231 00:15:52,036 --> 00:15:57,046 Speaker 10: going to really be difficult to talk about this. I 232 00:15:57,086 --> 00:16:01,266 Speaker 10: remarked when I first heard about it on the news 233 00:16:01,726 --> 00:16:02,726 Speaker 10: about a tragedy. 234 00:16:03,786 --> 00:16:06,866 Speaker 1: Fred seemed eager to please or form a rapport with 235 00:16:06,886 --> 00:16:07,566 Speaker 1: the detectives. 236 00:16:08,966 --> 00:16:13,426 Speaker 4: Well, you know, we've had a service for both of 237 00:16:13,466 --> 00:16:18,406 Speaker 4: them Monday. We had friends over afterwards. A lot of 238 00:16:18,426 --> 00:16:22,446 Speaker 4: my friends are really into sailing and the ocean and 239 00:16:22,526 --> 00:16:26,446 Speaker 4: all those things. And we remarked over and over that 240 00:16:26,486 --> 00:16:29,726 Speaker 4: how many times have you dumped a boat and everybody 241 00:16:29,746 --> 00:16:32,886 Speaker 4: just got wet, a little angry, and got back in 242 00:16:32,906 --> 00:16:33,846 Speaker 4: and everything was fine. 243 00:16:34,936 --> 00:16:37,676 Speaker 1: He said Doug, whom he referred to as his son, 244 00:16:38,216 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 1: was very comfortable in the water. 245 00:16:41,096 --> 00:16:43,216 Speaker 4: That's part of the things that I find, you know, 246 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 4: really as perverse as it is. 247 00:16:46,056 --> 00:16:47,016 Speaker 7: Is that. 248 00:16:48,316 --> 00:16:52,356 Speaker 4: My son was a good swimmer. He had just mastered 249 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:56,736 Speaker 4: standing up on a boogie board. He was a small boy, 250 00:16:56,916 --> 00:17:01,186 Speaker 4: but very agile and he was a good swimmer. 251 00:17:01,286 --> 00:17:05,706 Speaker 1: He was practically babbling, answering questions the detectives hadn't even asked. 252 00:17:07,186 --> 00:17:09,786 Speaker 4: But I think part of the thing that got him 253 00:17:09,826 --> 00:17:11,686 Speaker 4: was the fact that he was wearing a life jacket, 254 00:17:12,386 --> 00:17:13,926 Speaker 4: that he was trapped underneath the boat. 255 00:17:14,826 --> 00:17:16,136 Speaker 2: Or was he trapped under the boat? 256 00:17:16,896 --> 00:17:20,016 Speaker 4: Well, and again, that's something that I can only surmise, 257 00:17:20,096 --> 00:17:24,946 Speaker 4: because initially I was trapped under the boat. They had 258 00:17:24,966 --> 00:17:29,486 Speaker 4: a camera on, and the camera strap got hooked in 259 00:17:29,506 --> 00:17:31,286 Speaker 4: the oar lock. 260 00:17:32,426 --> 00:17:33,866 Speaker 2: In fact, I drew a picture of that. 261 00:17:33,886 --> 00:17:37,306 Speaker 4: I don't know if you're familiar with the boat, but 262 00:17:37,346 --> 00:17:39,966 Speaker 4: it was a 16-foot shock rolling dory. 263 00:17:40,606 --> 00:17:42,806 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw the boat yesterday. Paul and I did. 264 00:17:46,416 --> 00:17:49,056 Speaker 1: Next, Ray wanted to know about any objects that were 265 00:17:49,076 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 1: in the boat with them, clues that could corroborate the 266 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:55,016 Speaker 1: locations in his story, or work to contradict them. 267 00:17:55,696 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 2: Did you have anything in the boat other than the 268 00:18:01,386 --> 00:18:03,446 Speaker 2: three of you? 269 00:18:03,466 --> 00:18:08,786 Speaker 5: I mean, were you carrying sandwiches or coats or anything 270 00:18:08,826 --> 00:18:09,246 Speaker 5: like that? 271 00:18:09,646 --> 00:18:10,226 Speaker 9: No, no. 272 00:18:10,426 --> 00:18:12,986 Speaker 1: The answer was no, but Fred took the question as 273 00:18:13,026 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 1: an invitation to back all the way up, the purchase 274 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:20,016 Speaker 1: of his sailboat months earlier well. 275 00:18:19,976 --> 00:18:22,456 Speaker 4: Let me let me go back i guess the easiest 276 00:18:22,496 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 4: thing is to really start in the beginning and uh 277 00:18:25,906 --> 00:18:34,186 Speaker 4: about september august or september of last year we really 278 00:18:34,206 --> 00:18:39,006 Speaker 4: had a desire to get a boat We thought we 279 00:18:39,046 --> 00:18:40,846 Speaker 4: were to a point where we could really take off 280 00:18:40,906 --> 00:18:43,466 Speaker 4: and do some sailing as a family. 281 00:18:43,546 --> 00:18:46,526 Speaker 1: It sounded like he wanted the detectives to be happy 282 00:18:46,586 --> 00:18:47,006 Speaker 1: for him. 283 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 4: We just felt so fortunate. I mean, so it was 284 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:55,016 Speaker 4: really just like a real dream come true that we 285 00:18:55,056 --> 00:18:59,706 Speaker 4: could get the boat. And then we spent just about 286 00:19:00,946 --> 00:19:05,166 Speaker 4: every weekend, sailing her, initially just day sailing her with friends, 287 00:19:05,946 --> 00:19:08,846 Speaker 4: then finally going out to the islands, and we made 288 00:19:08,866 --> 00:19:10,166 Speaker 4: a number of trips out there. 289 00:19:11,966 --> 00:19:14,766 Speaker 1: Then he started talking about Lady, the beagle. 290 00:19:15,746 --> 00:19:21,366 Speaker 4: We had just gotten a dog about maybe a month, 291 00:19:22,186 --> 00:19:23,746 Speaker 4: I'd have to look at the records, but maybe a 292 00:19:23,786 --> 00:19:27,776 Speaker 4: month or two months ago. The whole family wanted a dog, 293 00:19:27,816 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 4: and I was sort of against the dog. One, because 294 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 4: we had a boat, and we had four children, and 295 00:19:31,936 --> 00:19:33,076 Speaker 4: I felt they could pet each. 296 00:19:32,996 --> 00:19:35,216 Speaker 2: Other if they really needed it. We didn't need something. 297 00:19:34,976 --> 00:19:38,096 Speaker 4: Else to take care of. But they won, and we 298 00:19:38,136 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 4: got a little beagle puppy. And we had taken her 299 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:43,716 Speaker 4: in the car, and we had taken her up and 300 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:45,256 Speaker 4: spent the night on the boat, but we never had 301 00:19:45,296 --> 00:19:50,426 Speaker 4: her out. So one of the reasons for the trip was, one, 302 00:19:50,456 --> 00:19:55,236 Speaker 4: my parents were here from Indiana. I seem like I'm rambling. 303 00:19:57,416 --> 00:19:58,446 Speaker 2: So we were all aboard. 304 00:19:59,026 --> 00:20:02,936 Speaker 4: And we got underway in the morning. My mother actually 305 00:20:02,976 --> 00:20:04,656 Speaker 4: sailed the boat all the way over. 306 00:20:04,676 --> 00:20:06,836 Speaker 9: And then. 307 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 4: We put the sails down and then my wife takes 308 00:20:12,236 --> 00:20:14,816 Speaker 4: the boat, handles the helm at that point, and we 309 00:20:14,836 --> 00:20:16,896 Speaker 4: put down a bow anchor and a stern anchor. 310 00:20:20,696 --> 00:20:24,256 Speaker 1: The detectives let him talk and talk until he pretty 311 00:20:24,296 --> 00:20:25,356 Speaker 1: much talked himself out. 312 00:20:25,376 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 4: Fred needed a break. The hidden tape recorder capturing the interrogation. 313 00:20:48,506 --> 00:20:51,736 Speaker 1: Wasn't the only secret Ray and Tuller were keeping from Fred. 314 00:20:51,756 --> 00:20:56,096 Speaker 1: Doug and Verna had not, in fact, been cremated that day. 315 00:20:57,556 --> 00:21:00,856 Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to Fred, their bodies were sitting in cold storage 316 00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:04,606 Speaker 1: at the mortuary, waiting for a deputy from Santa Barbara 317 00:21:04,886 --> 00:21:09,026 Speaker 1: to pick them up on a judge's search warrant. That 318 00:21:09,106 --> 00:21:12,406 Speaker 1: deputy would bring the bodies back to Santa Barbara, where 319 00:21:12,426 --> 00:21:17,256 Speaker 1: they'd each undergo a second cremation. secret autopsy, which would 320 00:21:17,296 --> 00:21:22,106 Speaker 1: tell a very different story about what happened at Bird Rock. 321 00:22:05,346 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 1: After Fred returned with the coffee, Detective Ray took charge 322 00:22:08,416 --> 00:22:09,176 Speaker 1: of the conversation. 323 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:13,276 Speaker 11: Basically, you're not sure what time it was when you 324 00:22:13,816 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 11: went out in the dinghy from your boat. 325 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:22,756 Speaker 8: No, the best, you know, it was after lunch. Um, 326 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 8: You know, it's probably, and again, it's probably between 1 327 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:28,156 Speaker 8: and 130. 328 00:22:28,156 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 4: Somewhere around in there. 329 00:22:30,756 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 2: Okay. 330 00:22:31,496 --> 00:22:36,356 Speaker 11: And then you rolled out by the rocks from the 331 00:22:36,426 --> 00:22:38,846 Speaker 11: point where you had the accident. 332 00:22:38,946 --> 00:22:41,246 Speaker 2: You could still see your boat where it was anchored? 333 00:22:41,446 --> 00:22:41,646 Speaker 9: Yes. 334 00:22:42,846 --> 00:22:45,306 Speaker 2: How far off of that rock would you say you were? 335 00:22:46,326 --> 00:22:50,706 Speaker 2: Probably 20 to 30 feet. When the accident happened? 336 00:22:52,916 --> 00:22:55,256 Speaker 1: Fred had told the detectives that the purpose of being 337 00:22:55,296 --> 00:22:57,436 Speaker 1: in the open ocean in the Dory was to take 338 00:22:57,456 --> 00:23:01,656 Speaker 1: a picture, Doug and Lady, with bird rock and perseverance. 339 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 2: How were you going to take the picture now? You 340 00:23:06,096 --> 00:23:07,536 Speaker 2: wanted the picture? 341 00:23:08,206 --> 00:23:12,046 Speaker 8: Yeah, I was going to be sitting on the floor 342 00:23:12,066 --> 00:23:15,106 Speaker 8: of the boat, and my son was going to be 343 00:23:15,166 --> 00:23:17,546 Speaker 8: holding the dog, and the picture would have been looking 344 00:23:17,566 --> 00:23:20,946 Speaker 8: from this point over his shoulder. You would have seen 345 00:23:20,986 --> 00:23:23,446 Speaker 8: the rocks and the birds moving. He would have been 346 00:23:23,466 --> 00:23:25,346 Speaker 8: in the foreground, the rocks and the birds, and then 347 00:23:25,406 --> 00:23:26,306 Speaker 8: Perseverance would have. 348 00:23:26,246 --> 00:23:27,566 Speaker 2: Been in the background. Oh, I see. 349 00:23:28,086 --> 00:23:29,606 Speaker 1: But that didn't really square. 350 00:23:30,106 --> 00:23:32,726 Speaker 2: Was that kind of close to take a picture of 351 00:23:32,786 --> 00:23:33,266 Speaker 2: the rock? 352 00:23:34,416 --> 00:23:36,776 Speaker 11: I mean, just because of the size of the rock, 353 00:23:36,956 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 11: isn't that kind of close to get enough photogram? 354 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,396 Speaker 2: I don't really understand, I guess, your question. In other words, 355 00:23:44,416 --> 00:23:45,986 Speaker 2: if you're going to take a picture of, say. 356 00:23:49,926 --> 00:23:53,736 Speaker 11: He's your son, and I'm you sitting here with the camera, 357 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:56,556 Speaker 11: and you want the boat in the background and the 358 00:23:56,636 --> 00:24:02,956 Speaker 11: rock to the side, well, to see that it's a rock, 359 00:24:04,706 --> 00:24:06,286 Speaker 11: if you're so close to it, all you're going to 360 00:24:06,306 --> 00:24:07,466 Speaker 11: see is just a big wall. 361 00:24:08,246 --> 00:24:12,246 Speaker 8: We have to, I guess, really look through the camera 362 00:24:12,486 --> 00:24:14,086 Speaker 8: and see what the field of view is in the 363 00:24:14,146 --> 00:24:18,526 Speaker 8: camera because it's not a wide angle. It's a narrower type. 364 00:24:18,396 --> 00:24:18,846 Speaker 2: Of a thing. 365 00:24:19,446 --> 00:24:21,566 Speaker 8: I was basically listening to her as to where she 366 00:24:21,606 --> 00:24:24,966 Speaker 8: wanted the boat. We had rowed out and we had stopped. 367 00:24:26,186 --> 00:24:30,246 Speaker 8: And Bernice said, okay, this should work. Make more oars. 368 00:24:30,306 --> 00:24:33,936 Speaker 8: This ought to work here. So I brought the oars 369 00:24:33,996 --> 00:24:39,816 Speaker 8: and the boat. And I slipped off the seat down 370 00:24:39,856 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 8: into the floor. So, her back would have been towards 371 00:24:44,746 --> 00:24:48,486 Speaker 8: us here. And she was sitting on a cushion. And 372 00:24:48,506 --> 00:24:49,586 Speaker 8: she had another cushion up. 373 00:24:49,586 --> 00:24:50,266 Speaker 4: In this V. 374 00:24:51,206 --> 00:24:51,826 Speaker 12: Excuse me a second. 375 00:24:52,346 --> 00:24:57,556 Speaker 2: Sure. Hello? 376 00:24:58,136 --> 00:25:00,776 Speaker 1: Fred, the newly single dad, was juggling. 377 00:25:01,936 --> 00:25:02,176 Speaker 2: Yeah. 378 00:25:03,036 --> 00:25:03,296 Speaker 13: Hi. 379 00:25:05,416 --> 00:25:07,126 Speaker 4: Uh, no, she went with Grandma. 380 00:25:08,446 --> 00:25:10,026 Speaker 14: Well, I don't know how they went into town. 381 00:25:10,086 --> 00:25:25,996 Speaker 4: Fuck you. So she would have been sitting with her 382 00:25:26,026 --> 00:25:26,756 Speaker 4: back to us. 383 00:25:27,616 --> 00:25:30,996 Speaker 1: Ray wanted to know about Doug's condition after the dory flipped. 384 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:34,756 Speaker 2: Was his eyes open or closed? His eyes were open. 385 00:25:35,656 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 2: Was he breathing? Could you tell? 386 00:25:39,536 --> 00:25:46,286 Speaker 8: No, he wasn't breathing. Just followed him. You know, he 387 00:25:46,326 --> 00:25:49,886 Speaker 8: was just running from his mouth. He wasn't shaking. He 388 00:25:49,926 --> 00:25:51,026 Speaker 8: wasn't retching. 389 00:25:55,786 --> 00:25:58,466 Speaker 2: What color was the vomit again? Yellow. 390 00:25:59,946 --> 00:26:02,586 Speaker 4: It was almost like you could see the corn chips 391 00:26:02,666 --> 00:26:03,386 Speaker 4: and stuff. 392 00:26:03,146 --> 00:26:04,106 Speaker 2: That he had had for lunch. 393 00:26:04,766 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 1: Detective Ray knew Fred had a lot of ocean experience. 394 00:26:08,696 --> 00:26:10,856 Speaker 11: Living next to the ocean here, you've been around the 395 00:26:10,896 --> 00:26:13,076 Speaker 11: ocean most of your life, it sounds like. 396 00:26:13,096 --> 00:26:20,496 Speaker 14: I came to California in 1966. My first job was 397 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:26,386 Speaker 14: with the Navy at Point Mugu. I've basically been near 398 00:26:26,426 --> 00:26:31,166 Speaker 14: the water ever since. 399 00:26:31,206 --> 00:26:36,326 Speaker 15: Was this your first sailboat? It was my first sailboat. 400 00:26:36,406 --> 00:26:41,036 Speaker 15: I had two houseboats before that. And I crewed on 401 00:26:42,196 --> 00:26:44,656 Speaker 15: a number of sailboats. 402 00:26:44,736 --> 00:26:47,536 Speaker 1: The interview went on for hours, till it was 6 403 00:26:47,536 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 1: o'clock at night. the detectives were still asking Fred questions 404 00:26:51,416 --> 00:26:59,236 Speaker 1: while the kids were popping in and out. By the 405 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:02,636 Speaker 1: time the detectives were done with Fred, the tone had shifted. 406 00:27:02,656 --> 00:27:06,846 Speaker 1: They were less reassuring, and Fred was less chummy. 407 00:27:08,626 --> 00:27:11,846 Speaker 10: Somehow we need to figure out if there's a way 408 00:27:11,866 --> 00:27:16,436 Speaker 10: we can figure out to to make sure that there 409 00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:18,856 Speaker 10: was no foul play or anything like that. 410 00:27:19,416 --> 00:27:22,546 Speaker 1: Ray handed the baton to his colleague, Claude Tuller. 411 00:27:23,366 --> 00:27:26,646 Speaker 11: Well, there's probably a couple of ways to be willing 412 00:27:26,686 --> 00:27:29,926 Speaker 11: to have a polygraph examination. 413 00:27:32,826 --> 00:27:33,106 Speaker 2: Sure. 414 00:27:33,706 --> 00:27:34,466 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think. 415 00:27:36,526 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 8: I would probably have to talk to my attorney and 416 00:27:41,216 --> 00:27:44,716 Speaker 8: then find out just exactly what really I should be doing. 417 00:27:45,776 --> 00:27:46,806 Speaker 2: Before you take the polygraph? 418 00:27:47,406 --> 00:27:51,006 Speaker 8: I think I really need. 419 00:27:50,046 --> 00:27:52,566 Speaker 4: To talk to him before whatever we do. 420 00:27:52,586 --> 00:27:56,226 Speaker 2: You know, Lord knows you're sure going through a lot now. 421 00:27:56,246 --> 00:27:57,626 Speaker 2: We understand. 422 00:27:58,306 --> 00:28:01,996 Speaker 10: We were just hoping because, you know, there's no way 423 00:28:02,036 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 10: to tell one way or another right now. We were 424 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:07,676 Speaker 10: just hoping there's some way that we could make it 425 00:28:07,856 --> 00:28:10,786 Speaker 10: easy on us and shorten everything out of him. 426 00:28:11,416 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 11: I think it's almost come down to that anyway because 427 00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:18,086 Speaker 11: I don't know if Berna and Doug had insurance. 428 00:28:18,866 --> 00:28:21,606 Speaker 1: Insurance? So that's what this was all about? 429 00:28:22,566 --> 00:28:22,846 Speaker 2: Yes. 430 00:28:23,766 --> 00:28:29,066 Speaker 10: So we'll have to come to some type of resolution 431 00:28:29,106 --> 00:28:32,376 Speaker 10: there more likely before they'll settle a claim. 432 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:39,276 Speaker 2: Were they both insured? Yeah, our whole family was insured. 433 00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:42,656 Speaker 1: As it happened, there were life insurance policies on both 434 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:46,776 Speaker 1: Verna and Doug, fresh ones. They'd been finalized in the 435 00:28:46,816 --> 00:28:51,696 Speaker 1: weeks before their deaths. And the policies were substantial, with 436 00:28:51,736 --> 00:28:54,526 Speaker 1: an additional payout in the case of accidental death. 437 00:28:54,546 --> 00:28:59,106 Speaker 15: The End. 438 00:29:11,766 --> 00:29:15,346 Speaker 1: The second secret autopsies would never have happened had it 439 00:29:15,406 --> 00:29:19,266 Speaker 1: not been for a Malibu woman named Candy Hinman. Candy 440 00:29:19,286 --> 00:29:21,866 Speaker 1: had been a close friend of Fred's first wife, Jean, 441 00:29:22,396 --> 00:29:24,736 Speaker 1: and she had serious concerns about Fred. 442 00:29:25,536 --> 00:29:28,156 Speaker 12: I wasn't at liberty to say anything to anybody because 443 00:29:28,216 --> 00:29:31,356 Speaker 12: it's such a small town and a small group of people, 444 00:29:31,956 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 12: and I didn't want to make some accusation or say anything. 445 00:29:36,146 --> 00:29:39,386 Speaker 12: I just didn't want to do that, so I kept 446 00:29:39,446 --> 00:29:45,796 Speaker 12: quiet about it. and just thought things would unravel and 447 00:29:45,856 --> 00:29:46,946 Speaker 12: everybody would figure it out. 448 00:29:48,146 --> 00:29:50,656 Speaker 1: But when she heard that Verna and Doug had drowned, 449 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:52,256 Speaker 1: she was beside herself. 450 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:55,596 Speaker 12: That's when I said, I am quiet no longer. I 451 00:29:55,976 --> 00:29:59,456 Speaker 12: don't care if I become persona non grata for all 452 00:29:59,476 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 12: the community. I was not going to keep quiet. 453 00:30:03,096 --> 00:30:06,546 Speaker 1: Candy started making calls. It was very urgent. 454 00:30:07,506 --> 00:30:10,216 Speaker 12: They were scheduled to be cremated. And I said, hold, 455 00:30:10,286 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 12: hold it, hold everything. You've got to do some kind 456 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:17,416 Speaker 12: of investigation. I think there was a murder committed. 457 00:30:19,016 --> 00:30:21,946 Speaker 1: Candy wasn't trying to gossip or sling mud. She was 458 00:30:22,006 --> 00:30:22,746 Speaker 1: on a crusade. 459 00:30:24,266 --> 00:30:26,426 Speaker 12: I was determined that day that I was going to 460 00:30:27,346 --> 00:30:31,356 Speaker 12: make sure that somebody held him accountable, that somebody was 461 00:30:31,376 --> 00:30:33,616 Speaker 12: going to realize that there's a monster out there. 462 00:30:36,056 --> 00:30:38,836 Speaker 1: Before they closed the case on Verna and Doug, she 463 00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:42,396 Speaker 1: told the cops, they needed to find out what happened 464 00:30:44,726 --> 00:30:57,966 Speaker 1: to Fred's first wife. Coming up on the next episode 465 00:30:58,006 --> 00:31:02,196 Speaker 1: of Lost Hills, marriage in Malibu looked a little different 466 00:31:02,236 --> 00:31:02,936 Speaker 1: in the 70s. 467 00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:08,066 Speaker 13: But there was a group. who, like me, had never 468 00:31:08,266 --> 00:31:12,366 Speaker 13: slept with anybody else before we got married. It was just, 469 00:31:12,426 --> 00:31:16,126 Speaker 13: you just didn't do it. And so there was a 470 00:31:16,166 --> 00:31:21,216 Speaker 13: little bit of a freedom for some people to, you know, 471 00:31:21,876 --> 00:31:26,576 Speaker 13: get intimate with other people. It was open marriage. And 472 00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:28,476 Speaker 13: it ended in a couple of divorces. 473 00:31:29,896 --> 00:31:35,926 Speaker 1: That's next in Episode 3, The Shallow End, Part 1. 474 00:31:37,146 --> 00:31:40,446 Speaker 1: Lost Hills is written and reported by me, Dana Goodyear. 475 00:31:40,966 --> 00:31:44,066 Speaker 1: It's created by me and Ben Adair and produced by 476 00:31:44,126 --> 00:31:48,496 Speaker 1: Western Sound and Pushkin Industries. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus and 477 00:31:48,506 --> 00:31:50,856 Speaker 1: you can hear the whole season ad-free and get early 478 00:31:50,936 --> 00:31:54,196 Speaker 1: access to the final two episodes. Find Pushkin Plus on 479 00:31:54,216 --> 00:31:57,216 Speaker 1: the Lost Hills show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm.