WEBVTT - The Science of Making (and Keeping) Friends 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:31.716 Pushkin. You know, I looked around at my friends and 0:00:31.756 --> 0:00:33.916 I was like, well, why doesn't this love matter? Why 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:36.596 have I been told that this love doesn't count. It 0:00:36.836 --> 0:00:39.556 called into question some of the beliefs that I had 0:00:39.676 --> 0:00:43.316 about romantic versus platonic love. I thought that those messages 0:00:43.316 --> 0:00:45.596 were actively harming me, and that they might be harming 0:00:45.756 --> 0:00:50.436 other people too. That's doctor Marissa Franco, a psychologist and 0:00:50.516 --> 0:00:54.836 an expert on friendship. Society often teaches us that friendship 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:59.196 is secondary to other relationships like family or romantic partners, 0:00:59.636 --> 0:01:03.836 and Marissa wants to change that. In our conversation, she 0:01:03.956 --> 0:01:07.756 shares some helpful strategies to enrich the quality of our friendships, 0:01:08.236 --> 0:01:13.236 including a concept known as mutuality. Mutuality is different from 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:15.156 a lot of the ways that we think about friendship 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:17.996 in terms of like we might think of it as reciprocity, 0:01:18.076 --> 0:01:19.676 like I reach out this time, you should reach out 0:01:19.676 --> 0:01:22.636 for the next time. But mutuality is taking a step 0:01:22.676 --> 0:01:27.076 back to look at the broader dynamics that are going 0:01:27.076 --> 0:01:31.356 on for each of us and figuring out whose needs 0:01:31.356 --> 0:01:38.716 make sense to prioritize in this given situation. On today's episode, 0:01:38.956 --> 0:01:42.596 we explore the science of friendship. Why it matters more 0:01:42.636 --> 0:01:44.876 than we might think, and what we can do to 0:01:44.996 --> 0:01:53.716 make new friends and keep the ones we have. I'm 0:01:53.756 --> 0:01:56.596 Maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:56.956 --> 0:01:59.116 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:15.076 in the face of a big change. Marissa is the 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:18.356 author of the book Platonic, How the Science of Attachment 0:02:18.476 --> 0:02:22.236 can help You Make and keep Friends. She realized just 0:02:22.316 --> 0:02:24.676 how important friendship was to her when she was in 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:28.676 her early twenties and navigating a painful breakup. I think 0:02:28.716 --> 0:02:32.196 I just felt that if I couldn't maintain this romantic relationship, 0:02:32.316 --> 0:02:35.516 then I wasn't lovable. I didn't have any love in 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:38.596 my life, and I was feeling so miserable. I think 0:02:38.796 --> 0:02:41.756 in part because of those beliefs and to heal, I 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:44.516 ended up asking my friend Heather, what if we start 0:02:44.516 --> 0:02:47.756 this wellness group. We can meet up, practice wellness, cook 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:51.956 do yoga, go on walks, have dinner. And I thought 0:02:51.956 --> 0:02:55.556 that would really help me heal my grief. And it did. 0:02:55.796 --> 0:02:58.876 Like meeting up with these friends every week totally healed me. 0:02:59.036 --> 0:03:01.756 It wasn't because we were meditating or doing yoga, it 0:03:01.796 --> 0:03:04.396 was just being in community with people that I loved 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:08.156 that loved me every week. And I think another reason 0:03:08.236 --> 0:03:10.956 why that group really healed me is that it called 0:03:10.996 --> 0:03:13.916 into question some of the beliefs that I had that 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:16.956 had caused me to take this breakup so hard, which 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:19.396 was here I was thinking I didn't have love in 0:03:19.436 --> 0:03:21.396 my life when I had evidence of just how loved 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:24.676 I was every week, Like I could no longer engage 0:03:24.676 --> 0:03:27.236 in that lie that I didn't have love. You know, 0:03:27.276 --> 0:03:29.356 I felt like, well, I don't think this is just me. 0:03:29.796 --> 0:03:33.676 I think this really reflects something larger in our culture 0:03:34.036 --> 0:03:37.916 that's really harming and hurting us all, and so understanding 0:03:37.916 --> 0:03:40.276 it not just as my own lived experience, but as 0:03:40.316 --> 0:03:44.036 a larger societal cultural problem or issue that we had 0:03:44.636 --> 0:03:47.596 is really what drove me to want to write Platonic. Yeah. 0:03:47.636 --> 0:03:49.556 I mean, this is one of the reasons I was 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:51.956 obsessed with having you on a slight Change of Plans 0:03:52.036 --> 0:03:54.716 is because I think your work does speak to this 0:03:54.796 --> 0:03:58.996 larger cultural issue, which is that we deprioritize friendship to 0:03:59.076 --> 0:04:02.756 a third great relationship. And I was thinking back to 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:05.916 my past and the views that I had, and I 0:04:05.956 --> 0:04:10.756 absolutely grew up thinking that romantic relationships sit at the 0:04:10.796 --> 0:04:13.956 top of the relationship hierarchy, and that if you don't 0:04:13.956 --> 0:04:17.236 have that, it really doesn't matter how many friends you 0:04:17.276 --> 0:04:20.796 have or how high quality those friendships are. Exactly yep. 0:04:21.036 --> 0:04:23.916 I had definitely felt the same way. And you know, 0:04:24.036 --> 0:04:25.956 I guess we even hear things like you need one 0:04:25.996 --> 0:04:28.876 person to complete you, which really made me feel like 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:32.036 I didn't have a sense of self without having a 0:04:32.116 --> 0:04:35.396 romantic partner. And also like, why do we think that 0:04:35.596 --> 0:04:39.196 one template fits for everybody? I think that when we 0:04:39.236 --> 0:04:42.556 have a cultural narrative that's so crushing, it can get 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:45.556 hard for people to actually discern, like what do I 0:04:45.596 --> 0:04:47.636 actually want in my life? What's actually best for me? 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:50.276 Like would I prefer a life where I have a 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:53.796 large network of friends and am single? But but yeah, 0:04:53.916 --> 0:04:57.036 when your society teaches you that if you make that choice, 0:04:57.076 --> 0:04:59.676 you're less of a person, people aren't as free to 0:04:59.676 --> 0:05:01.836 actually discern what is the life that I actually want 0:05:01.876 --> 0:05:05.396 for myself. You know, the argument you make in your 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:08.916 book is that we need to reclaim friendship and el 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:11.516 date it to the status that it deserves. So let's 0:05:11.516 --> 0:05:14.836 start there. I read in your book that there's a 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:18.876 very interesting connection that exists between friendship and self identity, 0:05:19.316 --> 0:05:21.436 and that's a connection I never really thought about before, 0:05:21.516 --> 0:05:23.796 So can you tell us a bit more about this connection. 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:27.476 So I think each person that we interact with is 0:05:27.516 --> 0:05:30.396 an advertisement for the kaleidoscope of ways in which we 0:05:30.476 --> 0:05:33.436 can live and the ways that people show up in 0:05:33.436 --> 0:05:35.836 the world, or how we learn to show up in 0:05:35.836 --> 0:05:39.396 the world too, Like that learning happens through being able 0:05:39.436 --> 0:05:41.836 to see a friend engage at a certain hobby your interests, 0:05:41.876 --> 0:05:43.556 and then you're like, maybe I would like that hobby 0:05:43.556 --> 0:05:45.636 your interests. Like it's that exposure that we get through 0:05:45.676 --> 0:05:48.436 each friend. And so in that way, it's like each 0:05:48.756 --> 0:05:50.836 person that we interact with can bring out a new 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:53.396 and different side of our identity. And so when we're 0:05:53.436 --> 0:05:56.956 only interacting with one person, it's like, well, a spouse, 0:05:56.956 --> 0:05:59.156 which we've been told should be, you know, the only 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:01.716 relationship we need to feel complete. Sometimes it's like we 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:04.196 only have one experience of ourself and all of the 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:07.076 parts of ourselves that maybe aren't aligned with what our 0:06:07.076 --> 0:06:10.116 spouse likes, not because you're incompactable with your spouse, but 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:13.556 just because you're different people with different hobbies and different interests. 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:16.556 Those parts of you might not come out when you're 0:06:16.556 --> 0:06:19.476 only interacting with them, and so it requires us to 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:23.916 be in community with different types of people, to experience 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:26.876 the different sides of ourselves and to have our identities 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:30.516 fan out. And I think that this was the sense, 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:32.876 at least I got to sense in the pandemic when 0:06:32.916 --> 0:06:36.236 I was living with a partner and still feeling like 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:40.356 unease or still feeling like it's a weird sort of 0:06:40.796 --> 0:06:43.436 malaise when you're just like, I don't know my identities 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:45.876 kind of scrunching inward, like I would hang out with 0:06:45.916 --> 0:06:48.276 my friends and feel like I'm just filling with life. 0:06:48.396 --> 0:06:50.996 I don't know, I just have different emotions that tend 0:06:51.036 --> 0:06:53.356 to come up around different people. And so I was 0:06:53.396 --> 0:06:57.476 experiencing my palette of emotions more greatly. And I think 0:06:57.516 --> 0:06:59.396 that's really important, because I think there's a lot of 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:02.156 feeling gray and feeling bleak or feeling kind of numb, 0:07:02.196 --> 0:07:04.676 and so it almost made me feel more alive to 0:07:04.716 --> 0:07:07.996 feel like, oh, this friend, I'm like laughing and we're 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:11.716 joking about this thing, and we're excited about this other thing. 0:07:11.836 --> 0:07:13.636 And that might have been part of why they just 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:16.436 made me feel like more expansive and more alive when 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:20.516 I interacted with them. Marissa, I'm curious. Is there research 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:24.716 showing that there's a strong connection between friendship and our 0:07:24.796 --> 0:07:28.076 physical and mental health. Yeah. So there's a study that 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:30.716 found that people that were exposed to the virus that 0:07:30.756 --> 0:07:33.236 causes the common cold, for example, were less likely to 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:36.756 actually contract the common cold when they had a diversity 0:07:36.796 --> 0:07:38.996 of support, when they weren't just relying on a spouse, 0:07:38.996 --> 0:07:42.516 but relying on different people for support in their lives. 0:07:42.836 --> 0:07:45.436 And there's other research that just links having a diversity 0:07:45.436 --> 0:07:48.876 of support to your general sense of well being overall. 0:07:49.796 --> 0:07:53.596 I love the research Marissa that shows that healthy, strong 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:57.476 friendships are associated with more resilience and our other relationships. 0:07:57.556 --> 0:08:00.036 Do you mind sharing a bit more about that. Yeah, 0:08:00.076 --> 0:08:02.276 I love this research too, because I think it's unfortunate 0:08:02.316 --> 0:08:05.956 that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our friendships 0:08:06.036 --> 0:08:08.436 as antagonistic, like, oh, you're hanging out with your friends, 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:10.876 you're not hanging out with me, instead of well, you're 0:08:10.876 --> 0:08:12.316 hanging out with your friends. That's great. Now we can 0:08:12.356 --> 0:08:15.276 have more quality connection when you come back, definitely, which 0:08:15.316 --> 0:08:18.676 is the truth, because you know, research finds that, for example, 0:08:18.716 --> 0:08:20.916 if I make a friend, not only am I less depressed, 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:24.516 but my romantic partner is also likely to be less depressed. 0:08:24.676 --> 0:08:27.436 So what can improve one partner's mental health will likely 0:08:27.516 --> 0:08:30.076 improve the other partner's mental health. And that's what we 0:08:30.076 --> 0:08:32.636 see when people make friends. There's research that finds that 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:36.516 when spouses are in a state of conflict, it negatively 0:08:36.516 --> 0:08:39.316 impacts their release of the stress hormone cortisol, but not 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:42.676 when they have that quality connection outside of the marriage 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:45.756 as well. And so it's just like, if you're just 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:48.716 relying on your spouse, whatever happens in that relationship is 0:08:48.796 --> 0:08:51.556 going to be so deterministic for how you're doing overall. 0:08:51.996 --> 0:08:54.476 But if you have quality connection outside of the marriage, 0:08:54.516 --> 0:08:57.396 it's like you have a buffer, you know, you kind 0:08:57.436 --> 0:08:59.756 of have a shield. Like if things aren't going well, 0:08:59.996 --> 0:09:04.076 that doesn't mean that you're completely sunk internally because you 0:09:04.076 --> 0:09:08.436 can rely on these outside resources as a pick me up. Okay, 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:12.276 so Marissa, you've convinced us that friendship is important, right, 0:09:12.756 --> 0:09:15.516 is something that we should all be working to invest in. 0:09:16.076 --> 0:09:18.516 I'm wondering if we can get tactical at this stage, 0:09:18.596 --> 0:09:21.276 and if we can learn from you how we can 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:24.716 do a better job of making friends in adulthood. I 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:26.676 think an issue that we have is that we think 0:09:26.716 --> 0:09:30.076 friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood, 0:09:30.196 --> 0:09:33.116 which means we won't have to try and be intentional. 0:09:33.276 --> 0:09:36.636 And there's a sociologist, Rebecca Adams, and she says, when 0:09:36.636 --> 0:09:42.036 we have repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that's when 0:09:42.036 --> 0:09:45.276 friendships happen more organically in your adult life. It's like, 0:09:45.316 --> 0:09:47.276 do you see people in a way that's repeated over 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:49.996 time even though it's not planned, like work, for example, 0:09:50.636 --> 0:09:53.596 and do you have your guard down? And at work, 0:09:53.636 --> 0:09:55.356 I don't know if people have their guard downs, like 0:09:55.436 --> 0:09:57.436 they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might 0:09:57.436 --> 0:10:00.996 be outside of the workplace. So basically what that means 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:04.436 is like as adults, we don't have that same environment 0:10:04.476 --> 0:10:07.396 we had as kids to just rely on friendship happening. 0:10:07.996 --> 0:10:11.316 We can't assume that it happens organically anymore like we're 0:10:11.356 --> 0:10:13.236 going to have to try. And in fact, one study 0:10:13.276 --> 0:10:18.076 found that people that thought friendship happened without effort, we're 0:10:18.076 --> 0:10:21.076 more lonely over time, whereas those that saught is happening 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:23.436 based on effort, we're less lonely over time, and they're 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:26.356 also more likely to actually make that effort. So I think, 0:10:26.596 --> 0:10:28.956 you know, by showing up at a place of worship 0:10:29.156 --> 0:10:31.596 or a hobby or interest group. So you know, when 0:10:31.596 --> 0:10:35.716 we understand it as not happening organically, we understand that. Okay, 0:10:35.756 --> 0:10:38.516 that means I'm going to have to make a choice 0:10:38.676 --> 0:10:43.276 to do something in my life to find friends. Can 0:10:43.316 --> 0:10:46.196 you tell us a bit more about why repeated interactions 0:10:46.236 --> 0:10:50.476 are so important when it comes to facilitating friendship. Yeah, 0:10:50.516 --> 0:10:53.876 So it's because of something called the mere exposure effect, 0:10:54.116 --> 0:10:57.516 which the mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like 0:10:57.676 --> 0:11:00.636 things that are familiar and for people to like us 0:11:00.716 --> 0:11:03.756 the more that we become familiar. If you continue to 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:05.396 be exposed to someone, they don't harm you, then you 0:11:05.476 --> 0:11:08.196 build trust with them. And so I think when we 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:12.676 have that repeated interaction, mere exposure increases we like them more, 0:11:12.876 --> 0:11:15.436 they like us more. And if we do want to 0:11:15.516 --> 0:11:19.556 initiate an interaction and say something like hey, I've really 0:11:19.636 --> 0:11:22.356 enjoyed talking to you, would love to connect further, you 0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:26.076 open to exchanging contact information. We're just more likely to 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:29.836 be successful versus when we've seen someone once, maybe at 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:31.956 like a lecturer at a bar, and then we asked 0:11:31.996 --> 0:11:35.596 them to hang out. You know, one reason we fear 0:11:35.676 --> 0:11:38.516 initiating friendship is that, of course most of us are 0:11:38.556 --> 0:11:42.156 afraid of rejection. And so what's your advice to us 0:11:42.716 --> 0:11:45.876 to help us overcome this kind of anxiety. Well, the 0:11:45.956 --> 0:11:48.716 research finds that people like you more than you think 0:11:48.756 --> 0:11:52.996 they don specifically right now, I'm just kidding, yeah, you 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:56.916 specifically the rest of us were it's gonna be rough 0:11:56.996 --> 0:12:02.156 out there that basically, when strangers interact, they then underestimate 0:12:02.156 --> 0:12:04.676 how like they are by the other person. And the 0:12:04.716 --> 0:12:07.916 more self critical you are, the more pronounced this underestimation 0:12:08.116 --> 0:12:11.716 is generally people like us more than we might think. 0:12:11.916 --> 0:12:14.596 Like our brain is kind of programmed with this negativity 0:12:14.596 --> 0:12:18.556 bias where we register negative information more than positive, which 0:12:18.556 --> 0:12:20.636 means our predictions as to how we're coming off are 0:12:20.636 --> 0:12:24.356 often more cynical than the actual truth. So people are 0:12:24.436 --> 0:12:26.396 less likely to reject you than you think. And I 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:30.556 also tell people to assume people like them, because the 0:12:30.716 --> 0:12:33.436 research finds that when people are told, you know, based 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:37.356 on your personality profile, you will be liked. And this 0:12:37.436 --> 0:12:40.276 is a lie from the researchers, just deceiving people, But 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:43.596 they actually go out into a group and they become warmer, open, 0:12:43.796 --> 0:12:46.076 and friendlier, and so it becomes a sort of self 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:49.156 fulfilling prophecy. Whereas we know that people are who are 0:12:49.516 --> 0:12:53.356 more rejection sensitive, who tend to see rejection when it's 0:12:53.396 --> 0:12:56.236 not there, like, oh, my friend didn't text me back, 0:12:56.356 --> 0:12:58.876 or my friend came to this show and they didn't 0:12:58.876 --> 0:13:00.756 sit right next to me, Does that mean they don't 0:13:00.796 --> 0:13:03.876 like me? They actually tend to reject people. They become 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:07.996 more cold, they become more withdrawn, and then people reject 0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:11.396 them back after they've been rejected. So in some ways, 0:13:11.436 --> 0:13:15.196 when we always think we're being rejected, it also influences 0:13:15.196 --> 0:13:17.396 our behavior to make that rejection more of a self 0:13:17.396 --> 0:13:22.516 fulfilling prophecy too. So to summarize, there is a This 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:24.716 is so interesting because I talked with Vanessa Bonds for 0:13:24.756 --> 0:13:28.036 this show as well, and she calls this the liking gap, right, 0:13:28.076 --> 0:13:29.676 And I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, which is 0:13:29.676 --> 0:13:32.596 the liking gap. Yes, So there's a gap between our 0:13:32.636 --> 0:13:35.516 expectations of how much people really like us versus how 0:13:35.596 --> 0:13:37.956 much we think they like us. And the good news 0:13:38.036 --> 0:13:39.636 is that they tend to like us more than we think. 0:13:39.796 --> 0:13:43.236 So that's reassuring, yes, And then the second is just 0:13:43.316 --> 0:13:46.676 remember that it is a self fulfilling prophecy. So play 0:13:46.716 --> 0:13:49.196 the part of someone who believes they are likable and 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:52.796 lovable and worthy of friendship love. And the more you 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:55.596 do that, the more your best traits are recruited from you. 0:13:55.636 --> 0:13:58.396 Whereas if you go into a situation believing you'll get rejected, 0:13:58.676 --> 0:14:01.876 that will bring out the worst sides of you, right exactly. 0:14:01.916 --> 0:14:04.396 You know, that is a really great point. Really, when 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:07.116 I see people act in very harmful ways in their friendship, 0:14:07.396 --> 0:14:10.116 it's because they think people don't care about them, right, 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:12.036 So I never reach out to my friends because I 0:14:12.036 --> 0:14:14.276 think they're going to see it as a burden. It's 0:14:14.316 --> 0:14:16.316 just when we think someone is going to reject us, 0:14:16.356 --> 0:14:19.556 it licenses us to engage in all types of harmful 0:14:19.596 --> 0:14:21.356 and crappy behaviors because we're like, they're not going to 0:14:21.396 --> 0:14:23.316 care anyway if I ghost them, So I guess I'm 0:14:23.316 --> 0:14:24.796 just going to ghost them because they don't really care 0:14:24.836 --> 0:14:27.956 about me. And so in some ways, I think that's 0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:30.476 why believing people care about you and believing people love 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:34.956 you causes you to be a lot better of a friend. 0:14:36.356 --> 0:14:38.956 After the break, Marissa tells us how we can be 0:14:38.956 --> 0:14:41.756 better friends to the people who are already in our lives. 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:44.436 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:14:44.476 --> 0:14:53.596 of plans. So we've talked up to this point about 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:55.516 how it is that we can do a better job 0:14:56.036 --> 0:14:59.516 making new friends. Now I'd love to pivot to how 0:14:59.556 --> 0:15:01.796 we can do a better job of investing in and 0:15:01.836 --> 0:15:05.516 maintaining our current friendships. Yes, what are the factors that 0:15:05.716 --> 0:15:09.196 we should keep in mind? So when it comes to 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.956 keeping friends. That makes me think about this theory called 0:15:13.076 --> 0:15:16.196 risk regulation theory, which was originally created for romantic partners, 0:15:16.196 --> 0:15:18.676 but I think applies for friends too. And it's this 0:15:18.716 --> 0:15:20.916 idea that we decide how much to invest in a 0:15:20.996 --> 0:15:24.076 relationship based on our likelihood of being rejected. And the 0:15:24.116 --> 0:15:27.436 more that we can convey to someone that we won't 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.036 reject them, the more they can invest in the relationship 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:35.236 with us. And so showing affection towards friends, being generous 0:15:35.276 --> 0:15:37.956 towards friends, anything that shows someone that you love and 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:41.516 you value them is going to help the friendship. It's 0:15:41.556 --> 0:15:44.996 going to deepen the friendship. Anything that shows care, consideration, 0:15:45.156 --> 0:15:47.396 investment in the other person, because that's assigned to that 0:15:47.476 --> 0:15:50.396 other person, Like, oh, now I can invest in this relationship. 0:15:50.396 --> 0:15:52.036 It's safe for me to invest because of how much 0:15:52.076 --> 0:15:54.476 investment they've shown in me. And so I talk in 0:15:54.516 --> 0:15:58.196 my book about, for example, like generosity, affection, even I 0:15:58.236 --> 0:16:01.796 think vulnerability in some ways, like when people are vulnerable 0:16:01.836 --> 0:16:04.316 with us, that conveys to us that they trust us, 0:16:04.836 --> 0:16:07.796 and it makes us more likely to be vulnerable with them. 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:09.676 All of these behaviors that show an investment are going 0:16:09.716 --> 0:16:12.436 to better our relationships. But we can also talk about 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:17.116 misconcept called mutuality, and mutuality is different from a lot 0:16:17.116 --> 0:16:19.116 of the ways that we think about friendship in terms 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:21.476 of we might think of it as reciprocity. I reach 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:23.276 out this time, you should reach out the next time. 0:16:23.636 --> 0:16:27.596 But mutuality is like taking a step back to look 0:16:27.596 --> 0:16:31.236 at the broader dynamics that are going on for each 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:35.556 of us and figuring out whose needs make sense to 0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:39.076 prioritize in this given situation. So what I mean by 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:41.436 that is that there might be times when my friend 0:16:41.596 --> 0:16:43.596 is in a lot of stress, you know, going through 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:46.636 mental health issues, just had a newborn baby, where I 0:16:46.636 --> 0:16:49.236 can't expect mutuality because I understand that I have greater 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:52.316 capacity than they do. And then at other times, you know, 0:16:52.436 --> 0:16:54.796 they might be investing more in me. Like Michelle Obama 0:16:54.836 --> 0:16:56.836 also talked about this in her new book, like a 0:16:56.916 --> 0:16:59.516 relationship is never going to be fifty fifty, And I 0:16:59.556 --> 0:17:02.836 see that in terms of long term friendships too. There's 0:17:02.876 --> 0:17:04.676 going to be a period when you're giving more, there's 0:17:04.716 --> 0:17:06.636 going to be a period when you're getting more. And 0:17:06.716 --> 0:17:08.876 it's like the measure of equality is more so in 0:17:09.356 --> 0:17:12.396 the larger scheme of things. Yeah, it's so funny that 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:15.356 you mentioned that, because one of my best friends recently 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:17.756 came over to share that she was pregnant, and she 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:20.636 and her husband were here, and they joked, we're actually 0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:23.276 here to say our goodbyes, Maya and Jimmy, it's been 0:17:23.356 --> 0:17:26.236 so wonderful being friends with you. And of course she's 0:17:26.276 --> 0:17:28.716 nodding to the fact that you first time parents kind 0:17:28.756 --> 0:17:31.956 of disappear for an extended period in those early years. 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:34.676 And you know, it was a joke, but it did 0:17:34.756 --> 0:17:37.716 actually lead me to have a candid conversation with her 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:41.436 a couple weeks later about how, for the first time 0:17:41.476 --> 0:17:44.276 ever since we met in college when we were teenagers, 0:17:44.796 --> 0:17:48.716 our lives are diverging in this really profound way, and 0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:52.316 so I'm wondering if you have advice for me in 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:56.276 this case, and listeners as well about how to navigate 0:17:56.276 --> 0:18:00.076 friendships when our lives feel like they're entering completely different phases. 0:18:01.876 --> 0:18:04.316 I love the fact that you had a conversation with 0:18:04.356 --> 0:18:06.796 your friend because I think part of the reason why 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:09.076 friendships tend to tear when we move into these different 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:12.556 stages is because we rely on a set of assumptions like, oh, 0:18:12.596 --> 0:18:14.116 this person as a kid, they have no time to 0:18:14.116 --> 0:18:15.436 talk to me, they don't want to hear from me, 0:18:16.036 --> 0:18:18.436 or people that have kids, being like my single friend 0:18:18.516 --> 0:18:20.636 just thinks my life is boring and they don't want 0:18:20.676 --> 0:18:22.316 to be around my kids, so I can't hang out 0:18:22.356 --> 0:18:24.676 with them. And it's the set of assumptions that tends 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:26.876 to pull us apart, Whereas when we can actually have 0:18:26.916 --> 0:18:29.636 the conversation, Okay, like I would love to still hang 0:18:29.716 --> 0:18:31.396 out sometime. What does that look like for you? Does 0:18:31.396 --> 0:18:33.156 it mean I have to come over after the kid 0:18:33.276 --> 0:18:35.836 is put to bed? How comfortable are you hanging out 0:18:35.876 --> 0:18:38.716 with the kid around What are your boundaries around this? 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:40.316 Instead of I'm just going to assume that you're too 0:18:40.316 --> 0:18:43.996 busy to ever talk to me again, you can affirm 0:18:44.036 --> 0:18:46.476 in identity and a friend even though it's not your own, 0:18:46.596 --> 0:18:48.516 even it's not one that you would choose for yourself, 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:51.076 but realizing that it's right for them. And that's actually 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:55.076 related to maintaining best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening 0:18:55.076 --> 0:18:57.036 best friendships over time when you can do that. And 0:18:57.076 --> 0:18:59.036 so that looks like, even if we don't have the 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:01.956 same life experience, let's still show interest in our differences. 0:19:02.036 --> 0:19:04.156 Let's still show interest in what's it like for you 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:05.716 to be a mom or what's it like for you 0:19:05.756 --> 0:19:07.836 to live your childless life? What are you doing with that? 0:19:08.636 --> 0:19:11.596 Instead of assuming that because we have this difference, it's 0:19:11.636 --> 0:19:14.036 not something that we can connect on, because we do 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:17.956 look for friendships for commonality but also for expansion, And 0:19:18.036 --> 0:19:20.196 so now this friendship is going to provide you an 0:19:20.196 --> 0:19:22.636 opportunity to expand and be like, Oh, this is what 0:19:22.676 --> 0:19:24.756 it's like when someone really close to me has a kid, 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:26.716 and these are what their concerns are, these are the 0:19:26.716 --> 0:19:30.596 things that stress them out, and just maintain curiosity about that. Yeah, 0:19:30.596 --> 0:19:33.476 it touches back on a point you were making earlier 0:19:33.516 --> 0:19:37.396 in our conversation Marissa about how friendships can be mind expanding. 0:19:37.516 --> 0:19:40.316 In this really powerful way, right, You felt so alive 0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:42.676 when these parts of yourself were tapped into or you 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:45.236 were learning about new aspects of the world. And I 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:47.596 really love that reframe, and I think it's one I'll 0:19:47.636 --> 0:19:50.956 carry with me as my friend has this child. And 0:19:51.356 --> 0:19:53.236 another thing that she and I talked about in this 0:19:53.236 --> 0:19:56.676 conversation was the long term nature of our friendships. So 0:19:57.036 --> 0:19:59.756 we kind of acknowledge there might be some speed bunts, 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:02.956 there might be some harder moments in time in the 0:20:02.996 --> 0:20:05.796 short term, but let's not forget that we are committed 0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:08.516 for life as friends. I love that. Yeah, I found 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:11.036 the converse pretty therapeutic because I think I was having 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:13.396 a lot of anxiety around what would have happened to 0:20:13.716 --> 0:20:16.916 this best friendship of mine, and so it felt good 0:20:17.076 --> 0:20:18.636 to confront it head on, even though I was a 0:20:18.676 --> 0:20:22.556 little nervous to have the conversation. I think that's really awesome. 0:20:23.116 --> 0:20:25.876 I think that's really really awesome, And it reminds me 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:29.636 of the study and long distance friendships that maintaining them 0:20:29.716 --> 0:20:32.116 was kind of looking at the times when you don't 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:35.556 talk as flexible, not fragile, like friendship can ebb and flow. 0:20:35.596 --> 0:20:37.436 If we have an EBB, let's not assume the friendship 0:20:37.516 --> 0:20:39.916 is over and never reengage, but instead it assumed that 0:20:40.196 --> 0:20:42.356 this is part of the life story of the friendship. 0:20:42.396 --> 0:20:44.916 There's going to be moments where we're spread apart, and 0:20:44.916 --> 0:20:46.796 then there's going to be moments where we come back 0:20:46.836 --> 0:20:49.676 together again. Yeah, and you're reminding me this moment with 0:20:49.756 --> 0:20:52.916 this particular friend. We already share that in our history. 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:55.516 So we were inseparable. We were attached at the hip 0:20:55.516 --> 0:20:57.556 when we were in college, and then she studied abroad 0:20:57.596 --> 0:21:00.876 for a period of time, and then obviously communication went 0:21:00.916 --> 0:21:02.636 down for a bit, and then a couple of years later, 0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:05.876