1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:31,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. You know, I looked around at my friends and 2 00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:33,916 Speaker 1: I was like, well, why doesn't this love matter? Why 3 00:00:33,956 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 1: have I been told that this love doesn't count. It 4 00:00:36,836 --> 00:00:39,556 Speaker 1: called into question some of the beliefs that I had 5 00:00:39,676 --> 00:00:43,316 Speaker 1: about romantic versus platonic love. I thought that those messages 6 00:00:43,316 --> 00:00:45,596 Speaker 1: were actively harming me, and that they might be harming 7 00:00:45,756 --> 00:00:50,436 Speaker 1: other people too. That's doctor Marissa Franco, a psychologist and 8 00:00:50,516 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 1: an expert on friendship. Society often teaches us that friendship 9 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:59,196 Speaker 1: is secondary to other relationships like family or romantic partners, 10 00:00:59,636 --> 00:01:03,836 Speaker 1: and Marissa wants to change that. In our conversation, she 11 00:01:03,956 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: shares some helpful strategies to enrich the quality of our friendships, 12 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:13,236 Speaker 1: including a concept known as mutuality. Mutuality is different from 13 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 1: a lot of the ways that we think about friendship 14 00:01:15,196 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 1: in terms of like we might think of it as reciprocity, 15 00:01:18,076 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 1: like I reach out this time, you should reach out 16 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,636 Speaker 1: for the next time. But mutuality is taking a step 17 00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:27,076 Speaker 1: back to look at the broader dynamics that are going 18 00:01:27,076 --> 00:01:31,356 Speaker 1: on for each of us and figuring out whose needs 19 00:01:31,356 --> 00:01:38,716 Speaker 1: make sense to prioritize in this given situation. On today's episode, 20 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:42,596 Speaker 1: we explore the science of friendship. Why it matters more 21 00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:44,876 Speaker 1: than we might think, and what we can do to 22 00:01:44,996 --> 00:01:53,716 Speaker 1: make new friends and keep the ones we have. I'm 23 00:01:53,756 --> 00:01:56,596 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker, and this is a slight change of plans, 24 00:01:56,956 --> 00:01:59,116 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 25 00:01:59,356 --> 00:02:15,076 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Marissa is the 26 00:02:15,116 --> 00:02:18,356 Speaker 1: author of the book Platonic, How the Science of Attachment 27 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: can help You Make and keep Friends. She realized just 28 00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:24,676 Speaker 1: how important friendship was to her when she was in 29 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:28,676 Speaker 1: her early twenties and navigating a painful breakup. I think 30 00:02:28,716 --> 00:02:32,196 Speaker 1: I just felt that if I couldn't maintain this romantic relationship, 31 00:02:32,316 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 1: then I wasn't lovable. I didn't have any love in 32 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:38,596 Speaker 1: my life, and I was feeling so miserable. I think 33 00:02:38,796 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: in part because of those beliefs and to heal, I 34 00:02:41,876 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 1: ended up asking my friend Heather, what if we start 35 00:02:44,516 --> 00:02:47,756 Speaker 1: this wellness group. We can meet up, practice wellness, cook 36 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:51,956 Speaker 1: do yoga, go on walks, have dinner. And I thought 37 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:55,556 Speaker 1: that would really help me heal my grief. And it did. 38 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 1: Like meeting up with these friends every week totally healed me. 39 00:02:59,036 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 1: It wasn't because we were meditating or doing yoga, it 40 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,396 Speaker 1: was just being in community with people that I loved 41 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 1: that loved me every week. And I think another reason 42 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: why that group really healed me is that it called 43 00:03:10,996 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: into question some of the beliefs that I had that 44 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:16,956 Speaker 1: had caused me to take this breakup so hard, which 45 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,396 Speaker 1: was here I was thinking I didn't have love in 46 00:03:19,436 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: my life when I had evidence of just how loved 47 00:03:21,396 --> 00:03:24,676 Speaker 1: I was every week, Like I could no longer engage 48 00:03:24,676 --> 00:03:27,236 Speaker 1: in that lie that I didn't have love. You know, 49 00:03:27,276 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 1: I felt like, well, I don't think this is just me. 50 00:03:29,796 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: I think this really reflects something larger in our culture 51 00:03:34,036 --> 00:03:37,916 Speaker 1: that's really harming and hurting us all, and so understanding 52 00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:40,276 Speaker 1: it not just as my own lived experience, but as 53 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:44,036 Speaker 1: a larger societal cultural problem or issue that we had 54 00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 1: is really what drove me to want to write Platonic. Yeah. 55 00:03:47,636 --> 00:03:49,556 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the reasons I was 56 00:03:49,596 --> 00:03:51,956 Speaker 1: obsessed with having you on a slight Change of Plans 57 00:03:52,036 --> 00:03:54,716 Speaker 1: is because I think your work does speak to this 58 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:58,996 Speaker 1: larger cultural issue, which is that we deprioritize friendship to 59 00:03:59,076 --> 00:04:02,756 Speaker 1: a third great relationship. And I was thinking back to 60 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:05,916 Speaker 1: my past and the views that I had, and I 61 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:10,756 Speaker 1: absolutely grew up thinking that romantic relationships sit at the 62 00:04:10,796 --> 00:04:13,956 Speaker 1: top of the relationship hierarchy, and that if you don't 63 00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:17,236 Speaker 1: have that, it really doesn't matter how many friends you 64 00:04:17,276 --> 00:04:20,796 Speaker 1: have or how high quality those friendships are. Exactly yep. 65 00:04:21,036 --> 00:04:23,916 Speaker 1: I had definitely felt the same way. And you know, 66 00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:25,956 Speaker 1: I guess we even hear things like you need one 67 00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: person to complete you, which really made me feel like 68 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: I didn't have a sense of self without having a 69 00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:35,396 Speaker 1: romantic partner. And also like, why do we think that 70 00:04:35,596 --> 00:04:39,196 Speaker 1: one template fits for everybody? I think that when we 71 00:04:39,236 --> 00:04:42,556 Speaker 1: have a cultural narrative that's so crushing, it can get 72 00:04:42,596 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 1: hard for people to actually discern, like what do I 73 00:04:45,596 --> 00:04:47,636 Speaker 1: actually want in my life? What's actually best for me? 74 00:04:47,796 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: Like would I prefer a life where I have a 75 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:53,796 Speaker 1: large network of friends and am single? But but yeah, 76 00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:57,036 Speaker 1: when your society teaches you that if you make that choice, 77 00:04:57,076 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 1: you're less of a person, people aren't as free to 78 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: actually discern what is the life that I actually want 79 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:05,396 Speaker 1: for myself. You know, the argument you make in your 80 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 1: book is that we need to reclaim friendship and el 81 00:05:09,156 --> 00:05:11,516 Speaker 1: date it to the status that it deserves. So let's 82 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:14,836 Speaker 1: start there. I read in your book that there's a 83 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 1: very interesting connection that exists between friendship and self identity, 84 00:05:19,316 --> 00:05:21,436 Speaker 1: and that's a connection I never really thought about before, 85 00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:23,796 Speaker 1: So can you tell us a bit more about this connection. 86 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 1: So I think each person that we interact with is 87 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:30,396 Speaker 1: an advertisement for the kaleidoscope of ways in which we 88 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 1: can live and the ways that people show up in 89 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:35,836 Speaker 1: the world, or how we learn to show up in 90 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:39,396 Speaker 1: the world too, Like that learning happens through being able 91 00:05:39,436 --> 00:05:41,836 Speaker 1: to see a friend engage at a certain hobby your interests, 92 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 1: and then you're like, maybe I would like that hobby 93 00:05:43,556 --> 00:05:45,636 Speaker 1: your interests. Like it's that exposure that we get through 94 00:05:45,676 --> 00:05:48,436 Speaker 1: each friend. And so in that way, it's like each 95 00:05:48,756 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: person that we interact with can bring out a new 96 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:53,396 Speaker 1: and different side of our identity. And so when we're 97 00:05:53,436 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: only interacting with one person, it's like, well, a spouse, 98 00:05:56,956 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: which we've been told should be, you know, the only 99 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 1: relationship we need to feel complete. Sometimes it's like we 100 00:06:01,756 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: only have one experience of ourself and all of the 101 00:06:04,236 --> 00:06:07,076 Speaker 1: parts of ourselves that maybe aren't aligned with what our 102 00:06:07,076 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 1: spouse likes, not because you're incompactable with your spouse, but 103 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 1: just because you're different people with different hobbies and different interests. 104 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 1: Those parts of you might not come out when you're 105 00:06:16,556 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 1: only interacting with them, and so it requires us to 106 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: be in community with different types of people, to experience 107 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:26,876 Speaker 1: the different sides of ourselves and to have our identities 108 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 1: fan out. And I think that this was the sense, 109 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 1: at least I got to sense in the pandemic when 110 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 1: I was living with a partner and still feeling like 111 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:40,356 Speaker 1: unease or still feeling like it's a weird sort of 112 00:06:40,796 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 1: malaise when you're just like, I don't know my identities 113 00:06:43,516 --> 00:06:45,876 Speaker 1: kind of scrunching inward, like I would hang out with 114 00:06:45,916 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: my friends and feel like I'm just filling with life. 115 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:50,996 Speaker 1: I don't know, I just have different emotions that tend 116 00:06:51,036 --> 00:06:53,356 Speaker 1: to come up around different people. And so I was 117 00:06:53,396 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 1: experiencing my palette of emotions more greatly. And I think 118 00:06:57,516 --> 00:06:59,396 Speaker 1: that's really important, because I think there's a lot of 119 00:06:59,396 --> 00:07:02,156 Speaker 1: feeling gray and feeling bleak or feeling kind of numb, 120 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:04,676 Speaker 1: and so it almost made me feel more alive to 121 00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, this friend, I'm like laughing and we're 122 00:07:08,076 --> 00:07:11,716 Speaker 1: joking about this thing, and we're excited about this other thing. 123 00:07:11,836 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 1: And that might have been part of why they just 124 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:16,436 Speaker 1: made me feel like more expansive and more alive when 125 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:20,516 Speaker 1: I interacted with them. Marissa, I'm curious. Is there research 126 00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:24,716 Speaker 1: showing that there's a strong connection between friendship and our 127 00:07:24,796 --> 00:07:28,076 Speaker 1: physical and mental health. Yeah. So there's a study that 128 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 1: found that people that were exposed to the virus that 129 00:07:30,756 --> 00:07:33,236 Speaker 1: causes the common cold, for example, were less likely to 130 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 1: actually contract the common cold when they had a diversity 131 00:07:36,796 --> 00:07:38,996 Speaker 1: of support, when they weren't just relying on a spouse, 132 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 1: but relying on different people for support in their lives. 133 00:07:42,836 --> 00:07:45,436 Speaker 1: And there's other research that just links having a diversity 134 00:07:45,436 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: of support to your general sense of well being overall. 135 00:07:49,796 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 1: I love the research Marissa that shows that healthy, strong 136 00:07:53,676 --> 00:07:57,476 Speaker 1: friendships are associated with more resilience and our other relationships. 137 00:07:57,556 --> 00:08:00,036 Speaker 1: Do you mind sharing a bit more about that. Yeah, 138 00:08:00,076 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: I love this research too, because I think it's unfortunate 139 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 1: that we sometimes perceive our romantic relationships and our friendships 140 00:08:06,036 --> 00:08:08,436 Speaker 1: as antagonistic, like, oh, you're hanging out with your friends, 141 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:10,876 Speaker 1: you're not hanging out with me, instead of well, you're 142 00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:12,316 Speaker 1: hanging out with your friends. That's great. Now we can 143 00:08:12,356 --> 00:08:15,276 Speaker 1: have more quality connection when you come back, definitely, which 144 00:08:15,316 --> 00:08:18,676 Speaker 1: is the truth, because you know, research finds that, for example, 145 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: if I make a friend, not only am I less depressed, 146 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:24,516 Speaker 1: but my romantic partner is also likely to be less depressed. 147 00:08:24,676 --> 00:08:27,436 Speaker 1: So what can improve one partner's mental health will likely 148 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:30,076 Speaker 1: improve the other partner's mental health. And that's what we 149 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:32,636 Speaker 1: see when people make friends. There's research that finds that 150 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 1: when spouses are in a state of conflict, it negatively 151 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:39,316 Speaker 1: impacts their release of the stress hormone cortisol, but not 152 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 1: when they have that quality connection outside of the marriage 153 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:45,756 Speaker 1: as well. And so it's just like, if you're just 154 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 1: relying on your spouse, whatever happens in that relationship is 155 00:08:48,796 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 1: going to be so deterministic for how you're doing overall. 156 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:54,476 Speaker 1: But if you have quality connection outside of the marriage, 157 00:08:54,516 --> 00:08:57,396 Speaker 1: it's like you have a buffer, you know, you kind 158 00:08:57,436 --> 00:08:59,756 Speaker 1: of have a shield. Like if things aren't going well, 159 00:08:59,996 --> 00:09:04,076 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you're completely sunk internally because you 160 00:09:04,076 --> 00:09:08,436 Speaker 1: can rely on these outside resources as a pick me up. Okay, 161 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:12,276 Speaker 1: so Marissa, you've convinced us that friendship is important, right, 162 00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:15,516 Speaker 1: is something that we should all be working to invest in. 163 00:09:16,076 --> 00:09:18,516 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can get tactical at this stage, 164 00:09:18,596 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: and if we can learn from you how we can 165 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:24,716 Speaker 1: do a better job of making friends in adulthood. I 166 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 1: think an issue that we have is that we think 167 00:09:26,716 --> 00:09:30,076 Speaker 1: friendship will happen in adulthood like it did in childhood, 168 00:09:30,196 --> 00:09:33,116 Speaker 1: which means we won't have to try and be intentional. 169 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: And there's a sociologist, Rebecca Adams, and she says, when 170 00:09:36,636 --> 00:09:42,036 Speaker 1: we have repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability, that's when 171 00:09:42,036 --> 00:09:45,276 Speaker 1: friendships happen more organically in your adult life. It's like, 172 00:09:45,316 --> 00:09:47,276 Speaker 1: do you see people in a way that's repeated over 173 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:49,996 Speaker 1: time even though it's not planned, like work, for example, 174 00:09:50,636 --> 00:09:53,596 Speaker 1: and do you have your guard down? And at work, 175 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:55,356 Speaker 1: I don't know if people have their guard downs, like 176 00:09:55,436 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 1: they tend to not be as vulnerable as they might 177 00:09:57,436 --> 00:10:00,996 Speaker 1: be outside of the workplace. So basically what that means 178 00:10:01,076 --> 00:10:04,436 Speaker 1: is like as adults, we don't have that same environment 179 00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 1: we had as kids to just rely on friendship happening. 180 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:11,316 Speaker 1: We can't assume that it happens organically anymore like we're 181 00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:13,236 Speaker 1: going to have to try. And in fact, one study 182 00:10:13,276 --> 00:10:18,076 Speaker 1: found that people that thought friendship happened without effort, we're 183 00:10:18,076 --> 00:10:21,076 Speaker 1: more lonely over time, whereas those that saught is happening 184 00:10:21,116 --> 00:10:23,436 Speaker 1: based on effort, we're less lonely over time, and they're 185 00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:26,356 Speaker 1: also more likely to actually make that effort. So I think, 186 00:10:26,596 --> 00:10:28,956 Speaker 1: you know, by showing up at a place of worship 187 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:31,596 Speaker 1: or a hobby or interest group. So you know, when 188 00:10:31,596 --> 00:10:35,716 Speaker 1: we understand it as not happening organically, we understand that. Okay, 189 00:10:35,756 --> 00:10:38,516 Speaker 1: that means I'm going to have to make a choice 190 00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:43,276 Speaker 1: to do something in my life to find friends. Can 191 00:10:43,316 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 1: you tell us a bit more about why repeated interactions 192 00:10:46,236 --> 00:10:50,476 Speaker 1: are so important when it comes to facilitating friendship. Yeah, 193 00:10:50,516 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 1: So it's because of something called the mere exposure effect, 194 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,516 Speaker 1: which the mere exposure effect describes our tendency to like 195 00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:00,636 Speaker 1: things that are familiar and for people to like us 196 00:11:00,716 --> 00:11:03,756 Speaker 1: the more that we become familiar. If you continue to 197 00:11:03,756 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 1: be exposed to someone, they don't harm you, then you 198 00:11:05,476 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: build trust with them. And so I think when we 199 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:12,676 Speaker 1: have that repeated interaction, mere exposure increases we like them more, 200 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:15,436 Speaker 1: they like us more. And if we do want to 201 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:19,556 Speaker 1: initiate an interaction and say something like hey, I've really 202 00:11:19,636 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 1: enjoyed talking to you, would love to connect further, you 203 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:26,076 Speaker 1: open to exchanging contact information. We're just more likely to 204 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 1: be successful versus when we've seen someone once, maybe at 205 00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 1: like a lecturer at a bar, and then we asked 206 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:35,596 Speaker 1: them to hang out. You know, one reason we fear 207 00:11:35,676 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 1: initiating friendship is that, of course most of us are 208 00:11:38,556 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 1: afraid of rejection. And so what's your advice to us 209 00:11:42,716 --> 00:11:45,876 Speaker 1: to help us overcome this kind of anxiety. Well, the 210 00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:48,716 Speaker 1: research finds that people like you more than you think 211 00:11:48,756 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 1: they don specifically right now, I'm just kidding, yeah, you 212 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: specifically the rest of us were it's gonna be rough 213 00:11:56,996 --> 00:12:02,156 Speaker 1: out there that basically, when strangers interact, they then underestimate 214 00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:04,676 Speaker 1: how like they are by the other person. And the 215 00:12:04,716 --> 00:12:07,916 Speaker 1: more self critical you are, the more pronounced this underestimation 216 00:12:08,116 --> 00:12:11,716 Speaker 1: is generally people like us more than we might think. 217 00:12:11,916 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: Like our brain is kind of programmed with this negativity 218 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:18,556 Speaker 1: bias where we register negative information more than positive, which 219 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:20,636 Speaker 1: means our predictions as to how we're coming off are 220 00:12:20,636 --> 00:12:24,356 Speaker 1: often more cynical than the actual truth. So people are 221 00:12:24,436 --> 00:12:26,396 Speaker 1: less likely to reject you than you think. And I 222 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:30,556 Speaker 1: also tell people to assume people like them, because the 223 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 1: research finds that when people are told, you know, based 224 00:12:33,436 --> 00:12:37,356 Speaker 1: on your personality profile, you will be liked. And this 225 00:12:37,436 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 1: is a lie from the researchers, just deceiving people, But 226 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 1: they actually go out into a group and they become warmer, open, 227 00:12:43,796 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 1: and friendlier, and so it becomes a sort of self 228 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy. Whereas we know that people are who are 229 00:12:49,516 --> 00:12:53,356 Speaker 1: more rejection sensitive, who tend to see rejection when it's 230 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: not there, like, oh, my friend didn't text me back, 231 00:12:56,356 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 1: or my friend came to this show and they didn't 232 00:12:58,876 --> 00:13:00,756 Speaker 1: sit right next to me, Does that mean they don't 233 00:13:00,796 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 1: like me? They actually tend to reject people. They become 234 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:07,996 Speaker 1: more cold, they become more withdrawn, and then people reject 235 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 1: them back after they've been rejected. So in some ways, 236 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:15,196 Speaker 1: when we always think we're being rejected, it also influences 237 00:13:15,196 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 1: our behavior to make that rejection more of a self 238 00:13:17,396 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy too. So to summarize, there is a This 239 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 1: is so interesting because I talked with Vanessa Bonds for 240 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 1: this show as well, and she calls this the liking gap, right, 241 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:29,676 Speaker 1: And I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, which is 242 00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:32,596 Speaker 1: the liking gap. Yes, So there's a gap between our 243 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:35,516 Speaker 1: expectations of how much people really like us versus how 244 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:37,956 Speaker 1: much we think they like us. And the good news 245 00:13:38,036 --> 00:13:39,636 Speaker 1: is that they tend to like us more than we think. 246 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:43,236 Speaker 1: So that's reassuring, yes, And then the second is just 247 00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 1: remember that it is a self fulfilling prophecy. So play 248 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 1: the part of someone who believes they are likable and 249 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,796 Speaker 1: lovable and worthy of friendship love. And the more you 250 00:13:52,836 --> 00:13:55,596 Speaker 1: do that, the more your best traits are recruited from you. 251 00:13:55,636 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: Whereas if you go into a situation believing you'll get rejected, 252 00:13:58,676 --> 00:14:01,876 Speaker 1: that will bring out the worst sides of you, right exactly. 253 00:14:01,916 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 1: You know, that is a really great point. Really, when 254 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:07,116 Speaker 1: I see people act in very harmful ways in their friendship, 255 00:14:07,396 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: it's because they think people don't care about them, right, 256 00:14:10,196 --> 00:14:12,036 Speaker 1: So I never reach out to my friends because I 257 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:14,276 Speaker 1: think they're going to see it as a burden. It's 258 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: just when we think someone is going to reject us, 259 00:14:16,356 --> 00:14:19,556 Speaker 1: it licenses us to engage in all types of harmful 260 00:14:19,596 --> 00:14:21,356 Speaker 1: and crappy behaviors because we're like, they're not going to 261 00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:23,316 Speaker 1: care anyway if I ghost them, So I guess I'm 262 00:14:23,316 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 1: just going to ghost them because they don't really care 263 00:14:24,836 --> 00:14:27,956 Speaker 1: about me. And so in some ways, I think that's 264 00:14:27,956 --> 00:14:30,476 Speaker 1: why believing people care about you and believing people love 265 00:14:30,556 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: you causes you to be a lot better of a friend. 266 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:38,956 Speaker 1: After the break, Marissa tells us how we can be 267 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 1: better friends to the people who are already in our lives. 268 00:14:42,396 --> 00:14:44,436 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 269 00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: of plans. So we've talked up to this point about 270 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 1: how it is that we can do a better job 271 00:14:56,036 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: making new friends. Now I'd love to pivot to how 272 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 1: we can do a better job of investing in and 273 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: maintaining our current friendships. Yes, what are the factors that 274 00:15:05,716 --> 00:15:09,196 Speaker 1: we should keep in mind? So when it comes to 275 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:12,956 Speaker 1: keeping friends. That makes me think about this theory called 276 00:15:13,076 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 1: risk regulation theory, which was originally created for romantic partners, 277 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 1: but I think applies for friends too. And it's this 278 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 1: idea that we decide how much to invest in a 279 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:24,076 Speaker 1: relationship based on our likelihood of being rejected. And the 280 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:27,436 Speaker 1: more that we can convey to someone that we won't 281 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 1: reject them, the more they can invest in the relationship 282 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:35,236 Speaker 1: with us. And so showing affection towards friends, being generous 283 00:15:35,276 --> 00:15:37,956 Speaker 1: towards friends, anything that shows someone that you love and 284 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: you value them is going to help the friendship. It's 285 00:15:41,556 --> 00:15:44,996 Speaker 1: going to deepen the friendship. Anything that shows care, consideration, 286 00:15:45,156 --> 00:15:47,396 Speaker 1: investment in the other person, because that's assigned to that 287 00:15:47,476 --> 00:15:50,396 Speaker 1: other person, Like, oh, now I can invest in this relationship. 288 00:15:50,396 --> 00:15:52,036 Speaker 1: It's safe for me to invest because of how much 289 00:15:52,076 --> 00:15:54,476 Speaker 1: investment they've shown in me. And so I talk in 290 00:15:54,516 --> 00:15:58,196 Speaker 1: my book about, for example, like generosity, affection, even I 291 00:15:58,236 --> 00:16:01,796 Speaker 1: think vulnerability in some ways, like when people are vulnerable 292 00:16:01,836 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 1: with us, that conveys to us that they trust us, 293 00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 1: and it makes us more likely to be vulnerable with them. 294 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:09,676 Speaker 1: All of these behaviors that show an investment are going 295 00:16:09,716 --> 00:16:12,436 Speaker 1: to better our relationships. But we can also talk about 296 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:17,116 Speaker 1: misconcept called mutuality, and mutuality is different from a lot 297 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:19,116 Speaker 1: of the ways that we think about friendship in terms 298 00:16:19,116 --> 00:16:21,476 Speaker 1: of we might think of it as reciprocity. I reach 299 00:16:21,516 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 1: out this time, you should reach out the next time. 300 00:16:23,636 --> 00:16:27,596 Speaker 1: But mutuality is like taking a step back to look 301 00:16:27,596 --> 00:16:31,236 Speaker 1: at the broader dynamics that are going on for each 302 00:16:31,276 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 1: of us and figuring out whose needs make sense to 303 00:16:35,676 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 1: prioritize in this given situation. So what I mean by 304 00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:41,436 Speaker 1: that is that there might be times when my friend 305 00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 1: is in a lot of stress, you know, going through 306 00:16:43,596 --> 00:16:46,636 Speaker 1: mental health issues, just had a newborn baby, where I 307 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:49,236 Speaker 1: can't expect mutuality because I understand that I have greater 308 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 1: capacity than they do. And then at other times, you know, 309 00:16:52,436 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: they might be investing more in me. Like Michelle Obama 310 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 1: also talked about this in her new book, like a 311 00:16:56,916 --> 00:16:59,516 Speaker 1: relationship is never going to be fifty fifty, And I 312 00:16:59,556 --> 00:17:02,836 Speaker 1: see that in terms of long term friendships too. There's 313 00:17:02,876 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 1: going to be a period when you're giving more, there's 314 00:17:04,716 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 1: going to be a period when you're getting more. And 315 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:08,876 Speaker 1: it's like the measure of equality is more so in 316 00:17:09,356 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: the larger scheme of things. Yeah, it's so funny that 317 00:17:12,436 --> 00:17:15,356 Speaker 1: you mentioned that, because one of my best friends recently 318 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:17,756 Speaker 1: came over to share that she was pregnant, and she 319 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 1: and her husband were here, and they joked, we're actually 320 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: here to say our goodbyes, Maya and Jimmy, it's been 321 00:17:23,356 --> 00:17:26,236 Speaker 1: so wonderful being friends with you. And of course she's 322 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:28,716 Speaker 1: nodding to the fact that you first time parents kind 323 00:17:28,756 --> 00:17:31,956 Speaker 1: of disappear for an extended period in those early years. 324 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:34,676 Speaker 1: And you know, it was a joke, but it did 325 00:17:34,756 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 1: actually lead me to have a candid conversation with her 326 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:41,436 Speaker 1: a couple weeks later about how, for the first time 327 00:17:41,476 --> 00:17:44,276 Speaker 1: ever since we met in college when we were teenagers, 328 00:17:44,796 --> 00:17:48,716 Speaker 1: our lives are diverging in this really profound way, and 329 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: so I'm wondering if you have advice for me in 330 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 1: this case, and listeners as well about how to navigate 331 00:17:56,276 --> 00:18:00,076 Speaker 1: friendships when our lives feel like they're entering completely different phases. 332 00:18:01,876 --> 00:18:04,316 Speaker 1: I love the fact that you had a conversation with 333 00:18:04,356 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 1: your friend because I think part of the reason why 334 00:18:06,836 --> 00:18:09,076 Speaker 1: friendships tend to tear when we move into these different 335 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 1: stages is because we rely on a set of assumptions like, oh, 336 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:14,116 Speaker 1: this person as a kid, they have no time to 337 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:15,436 Speaker 1: talk to me, they don't want to hear from me, 338 00:18:16,036 --> 00:18:18,436 Speaker 1: or people that have kids, being like my single friend 339 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:20,636 Speaker 1: just thinks my life is boring and they don't want 340 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 1: to be around my kids, so I can't hang out 341 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:24,676 Speaker 1: with them. And it's the set of assumptions that tends 342 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:26,876 Speaker 1: to pull us apart, Whereas when we can actually have 343 00:18:26,916 --> 00:18:29,636 Speaker 1: the conversation, Okay, like I would love to still hang 344 00:18:29,716 --> 00:18:31,396 Speaker 1: out sometime. What does that look like for you? Does 345 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:33,156 Speaker 1: it mean I have to come over after the kid 346 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:35,836 Speaker 1: is put to bed? How comfortable are you hanging out 347 00:18:35,876 --> 00:18:38,716 Speaker 1: with the kid around What are your boundaries around this? 348 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:40,316 Speaker 1: Instead of I'm just going to assume that you're too 349 00:18:40,316 --> 00:18:43,996 Speaker 1: busy to ever talk to me again, you can affirm 350 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 1: in identity and a friend even though it's not your own, 351 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:48,516 Speaker 1: even it's not one that you would choose for yourself, 352 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 1: but realizing that it's right for them. And that's actually 353 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 1: related to maintaining best friendships over time, maintaining and deepening 354 00:18:55,076 --> 00:18:57,036 Speaker 1: best friendships over time when you can do that. And 355 00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: so that looks like, even if we don't have the 356 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:01,956 Speaker 1: same life experience, let's still show interest in our differences. 357 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: Let's still show interest in what's it like for you 358 00:19:04,196 --> 00:19:05,716 Speaker 1: to be a mom or what's it like for you 359 00:19:05,756 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: to live your childless life? What are you doing with that? 360 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 1: Instead of assuming that because we have this difference, it's 361 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:14,036 Speaker 1: not something that we can connect on, because we do 362 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:17,956 Speaker 1: look for friendships for commonality but also for expansion, And 363 00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:20,196 Speaker 1: so now this friendship is going to provide you an 364 00:19:20,196 --> 00:19:22,636 Speaker 1: opportunity to expand and be like, Oh, this is what 365 00:19:22,676 --> 00:19:24,756 Speaker 1: it's like when someone really close to me has a kid, 366 00:19:24,796 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 1: and these are what their concerns are, these are the 367 00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:30,596 Speaker 1: things that stress them out, and just maintain curiosity about that. Yeah, 368 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:33,476 Speaker 1: it touches back on a point you were making earlier 369 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:37,396 Speaker 1: in our conversation Marissa about how friendships can be mind expanding. 370 00:19:37,516 --> 00:19:40,316 Speaker 1: In this really powerful way, right, You felt so alive 371 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 1: when these parts of yourself were tapped into or you 372 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 1: were learning about new aspects of the world. And I 373 00:19:45,276 --> 00:19:47,596 Speaker 1: really love that reframe, and I think it's one I'll 374 00:19:47,636 --> 00:19:50,956 Speaker 1: carry with me as my friend has this child. And 375 00:19:51,356 --> 00:19:53,236 Speaker 1: another thing that she and I talked about in this 376 00:19:53,236 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 1: conversation was the long term nature of our friendships. So 377 00:19:57,036 --> 00:19:59,756 Speaker 1: we kind of acknowledge there might be some speed bunts, 378 00:19:59,796 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 1: there might be some harder moments in time in the 379 00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:05,796 Speaker 1: short term, but let's not forget that we are committed 380 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 1: for life as friends. I love that. Yeah, I found 381 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: the converse pretty therapeutic because I think I was having 382 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety around what would have happened to 383 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,916 Speaker 1: this best friendship of mine, and so it felt good 384 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 1: to confront it head on, even though I was a 385 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: little nervous to have the conversation. I think that's really awesome. 386 00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 1: I think that's really really awesome, And it reminds me 387 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:29,636 Speaker 1: of the study and long distance friendships that maintaining them 388 00:20:29,716 --> 00:20:32,116 Speaker 1: was kind of looking at the times when you don't 389 00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:35,556 Speaker 1: talk as flexible, not fragile, like friendship can ebb and flow. 390 00:20:35,596 --> 00:20:37,436 Speaker 1: If we have an EBB, let's not assume the friendship 391 00:20:37,516 --> 00:20:39,916 Speaker 1: is over and never reengage, but instead it assumed that 392 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:42,356 Speaker 1: this is part of the life story of the friendship. 393 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: There's going to be moments where we're spread apart, and 394 00:20:44,916 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: then there's going to be moments where we come back 395 00:20:46,836 --> 00:20:49,676 Speaker 1: together again. Yeah, and you're reminding me this moment with 396 00:20:49,756 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 1: this particular friend. We already share that in our history. 397 00:20:53,036 --> 00:20:55,516 Speaker 1: So we were inseparable. We were attached at the hip 398 00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:57,556 Speaker 1: when we were in college, and then she studied abroad 399 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:00,876 Speaker 1: for a period of time, and then obviously communication went 400 00:21:00,916 --> 00:21:02,636 Speaker 1: down for a bit, and then a couple of years later, 401 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 1: the intensity of our communications increased. I mean, there's been 402 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,516 Speaker 1: that waxing and waning already, and yet here we are 403 00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 1: in current day with a very stable, healthy friendship. And 404 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:13,316 Speaker 1: so it's nice to be able to look back at 405 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:16,916 Speaker 1: that historical data point as evidence that we can get 406 00:21:16,956 --> 00:21:21,276 Speaker 1: through these periods where things go up and down. I mean, yeah, 407 00:21:21,316 --> 00:21:23,116 Speaker 1: And I was on a podcast with someone who is 408 00:21:23,196 --> 00:21:25,236 Speaker 1: I think he was in his sixties then he never 409 00:21:25,236 --> 00:21:27,676 Speaker 1: had kids, and he was like, jes remember, your friendships 410 00:21:27,676 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 1: are gonna come back. Their kids are gonna leave the nest, 411 00:21:30,556 --> 00:21:32,916 Speaker 1: and then it's gonna be like you're back in your twenties, like, 412 00:21:32,956 --> 00:21:34,556 Speaker 1: how much time you want to spend with your friends. 413 00:21:34,596 --> 00:21:38,396 Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, yeah, she's gonna need me eventually. She's 414 00:21:38,396 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 1: an empty nester. I love it. I love it. So 415 00:21:42,236 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned Mersa that I felt a little 416 00:21:44,076 --> 00:21:46,956 Speaker 1: bit of anxiety when it came to raising this topic 417 00:21:47,036 --> 00:21:50,396 Speaker 1: with my friend. And speaking of anxiety, one area that 418 00:21:50,436 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 1: can cause us a lot of anxiety is fighting in 419 00:21:54,116 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 1: the context of friendship. And in part this is because 420 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:01,116 Speaker 1: we're led to believe that it's unreasonable for us to 421 00:22:01,196 --> 00:22:04,676 Speaker 1: have big arguments with our friends, because after all, they're 422 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 1: just our friends, right, But you say in your book 423 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:11,916 Speaker 1: it's actually quite important to fight in friendships. Empower us 424 00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 1: in this moment, empower us to have those difficult conversations 425 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 1: with friends where in the moment it feels easier just 426 00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:21,436 Speaker 1: pushing under the rug, but that's not actually in the 427 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 1: long term best interest of the friendship. Yeah, this was 428 00:22:24,556 --> 00:22:27,316 Speaker 1: like my biggest growth area in friendships that I was like, 429 00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:31,036 Speaker 1: being a good friend means me getting over it, totally 430 00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:33,916 Speaker 1: getting over the problem that I have in this friendship, 431 00:22:33,956 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 1: and then realizing, oh, I'm actually like just withdrawing. I'm 432 00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:41,036 Speaker 1: not actually just getting over it, and it's hurting and 433 00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 1: harming my friendships. And so I started to read all 434 00:22:43,036 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: this research that you know, people who really value friendship 435 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:48,716 Speaker 1: tend to actually address problems instead of just ignoring them, 436 00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: and that open empathic conflict is correlated with deeper intimacy, 437 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:56,996 Speaker 1: and so I was like, wow, am I actually missing 438 00:22:57,036 --> 00:23:00,716 Speaker 1: out on this opportunity for intimacy by trying to ignore 439 00:23:00,836 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 1: the conflict. And there's a psychoanalysts, Virginia Goldner, who talks 440 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:07,436 Speaker 1: about how you can have flaccid safety, which is basically 441 00:23:07,476 --> 00:23:10,076 Speaker 1: work close because we pretend there's ever any problems or 442 00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:12,636 Speaker 1: dynamic safety where you could actually rupture and repair and 443 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:14,676 Speaker 1: rupture and repair. And then you have a president that 444 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 1: whenever a problem comes up, we know that we can 445 00:23:17,996 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: actually address it and make it better instead of our 446 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: only options being to just injure or walk away. And 447 00:23:23,596 --> 00:23:27,156 Speaker 1: so I just was like, maybe I actually need to 448 00:23:27,196 --> 00:23:30,196 Speaker 1: address problems with my friends. And that was another way 449 00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:33,356 Speaker 1: where I compartmentalize intimacy, right, because I knew in my 450 00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:36,716 Speaker 1: romantic partnerships that I was going to have to address 451 00:23:36,836 --> 00:23:39,996 Speaker 1: problems and work through issues. And you're about marriage is 452 00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:42,476 Speaker 1: hard you're gonna have to, you know, work through all 453 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:45,596 Speaker 1: these problems together, and not realizing that part of intimacy 454 00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:48,436 Speaker 1: is conflict and so friendship is also going to require 455 00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:51,076 Speaker 1: the same set of skills. And the other thing that 456 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 1: I realized was that I was conflicating conflict with combat, 457 00:23:54,996 --> 00:23:58,596 Speaker 1: when in fact, conflict could look like reconciliation. And so 458 00:23:58,636 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: it was me learning to do things like frame the 459 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:04,396 Speaker 1: conversation as an active love like Hey, I want to 460 00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:06,676 Speaker 1: talk about this because you're so important to me, you know, 461 00:24:06,756 --> 00:24:09,156 Speaker 1: and I know you're having kids, and I'm so I 462 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:11,916 Speaker 1: died for you, and you know, I have some anxieties 463 00:24:11,916 --> 00:24:14,076 Speaker 1: about whether we must stay close, so I figured I 464 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:15,596 Speaker 1: would bring it up so we could still find a 465 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:17,836 Speaker 1: way to stay close through this big life change of ours. 466 00:24:18,276 --> 00:24:21,476 Speaker 1: And then using eye statements like yeah, I've been feeling 467 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 1: a little nervous about how this could impact our closeness, 468 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:28,316 Speaker 1: and then perspective taking, which looks like the mutuality of 469 00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:30,796 Speaker 1: as you share your feelings, how do you feel? What 470 00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 1: are you thinking? And then asking for what you need 471 00:24:33,076 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: in the future, like you know, maybe i'd still like 472 00:24:35,596 --> 00:24:38,156 Speaker 1: to see you like once a month or twice a month. 473 00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:40,636 Speaker 1: How would that work out for you. And so I 474 00:24:40,676 --> 00:24:43,876 Speaker 1: think healthy conflict looks like waiting into the ambivalence. Like 475 00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: a part of me is afraid too. We actually feel 476 00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:48,676 Speaker 1: some of the same things as this big change or 477 00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:51,556 Speaker 1: this issue in our friendship has come up. I really 478 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:54,996 Speaker 1: resonate with the frame the conversation as an affirmation of love. 479 00:24:55,036 --> 00:24:58,396 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about one of my closest friends, and you know, 480 00:24:58,436 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 1: at times he's like, can't we just let this go? 481 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 1: Shunks his my nickname run among my friends. He's like, 482 00:25:03,716 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 1: can't we just why do we have to discuss these things? 483 00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:08,476 Speaker 1: You know? Okn't we just let it? And I told him, 484 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 1: I was like, hey, you do realize that I don't 485 00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: put in this effort with everyone, right, It's because I 486 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 1: care so much about you and our communication and our 487 00:25:17,796 --> 00:25:21,276 Speaker 1: lifelong friendship that I do try to conflict resolve and 488 00:25:21,316 --> 00:25:23,956 Speaker 1: problem solve. And obviously there's a happy medium. But it 489 00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:25,876 Speaker 1: was I think that was really affirming for him. I 490 00:25:25,876 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 1: feel like it changed the whole spin on why it 491 00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:33,756 Speaker 1: was that I was initiating these kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Absolutely, 492 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:35,916 Speaker 1: and I think as a professor, I really tried to 493 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: be intentional about making my students feel safe, and what 494 00:25:38,316 --> 00:25:40,596 Speaker 1: comes out of that is they demand so much more 495 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 1: of me. And I remember hearing from this psychologist who 496 00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 1: studies narcist She said, the most toxic person is the 497 00:25:47,196 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 1: least confronted. And so if your friends are coming up 498 00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:53,316 Speaker 1: to you to address an issue, maybe it's not a 499 00:25:53,356 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 1: sign that you're a crappy friend. Maybe it's a sign 500 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 1: that they feel safe enough to actually bring up a 501 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 1: problem instead of trying to ignore it. Yeah, that's a 502 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:03,716 Speaker 1: really excellent way of seeing it. You wouldn't invest the 503 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:06,756 Speaker 1: time in someone that you didn't. You wouldn't feel vulnerable 504 00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:09,116 Speaker 1: enough to bring this up with someone that you didn't 505 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 1: in this deep way trust exactly. And so it's actually 506 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:15,796 Speaker 1: an ode to the quality of the friendship that you're 507 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:20,996 Speaker 1: having these conversations. There are some cases, of course, where, 508 00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:25,516 Speaker 1: for whatever reason transitions in life the nature of the relationship, 509 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:29,036 Speaker 1: you actually feel it's important to break up with a friend, 510 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,636 Speaker 1: and that can be extremely uncomfortable. Yeah, what do you 511 00:26:32,636 --> 00:26:35,516 Speaker 1: recommend that people do in a situation like that where 512 00:26:35,556 --> 00:26:39,236 Speaker 1: they just realize this friendship just it isn't serving me anymore. 513 00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:41,076 Speaker 1: It's not good for either of us, you know, whatever 514 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: the reason is it feels it's such a hard space, Merissa, 515 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: because there's an expectation in society that we break up 516 00:26:49,556 --> 00:26:51,436 Speaker 1: with significant others. I mean, that's just like part of 517 00:26:51,436 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 1: the cultural narrative that that happens. But the idea of 518 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:57,036 Speaker 1: breaking up with a friend just feels almost a bit 519 00:26:57,116 --> 00:27:00,476 Speaker 1: foreign and a little taboo. And yeah, to help me 520 00:27:00,516 --> 00:27:05,196 Speaker 1: make sense of this, Yeah, So I think it depends 521 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: on whether the other person is still invested in you 522 00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:11,476 Speaker 1: or not. If it seems mutual and the other person's 523 00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:14,076 Speaker 1: pulling away, you're pulling away, then I think it's fine 524 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:15,676 Speaker 1: to just kind of pull away and let it be. 525 00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:18,156 Speaker 1: But if the other person continues to seem invested in 526 00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:20,316 Speaker 1: a friendship with you and you're no longer invested in 527 00:27:20,316 --> 00:27:23,476 Speaker 1: a friendship with them, the kindest thing to do is 528 00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:25,756 Speaker 1: to tell them, because if you don't tell them, you 529 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:29,236 Speaker 1: trigger something called ambiguous loss, which is when we have 530 00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble processing our grief because we don't 531 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:34,556 Speaker 1: have any closure, and it's almost like they're going to 532 00:27:34,676 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 1: end up grieving twice because you weren't able to muster 533 00:27:37,556 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 1: up the courage to have a conversation. So it's quite 534 00:27:40,196 --> 00:27:42,396 Speaker 1: meaning but it doesn't feel mean. That's the thing I 535 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:45,276 Speaker 1: think with something like ghosting, they're such emotional and incongruence 536 00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:48,916 Speaker 1: between the experience of being the ghoster and receiving the ghosting, 537 00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 1: Like it's like, oh, I just kind of forgot about it, 538 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:52,716 Speaker 1: but the other person is like it's keeping them up 539 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:54,636 Speaker 1: at night and they're ruminating on it. So I think 540 00:27:54,636 --> 00:27:57,556 Speaker 1: it's really important to remember that incongruence because if we don't, 541 00:27:57,876 --> 00:27:59,956 Speaker 1: we might be like, well, it's no sweat for me. 542 00:28:00,116 --> 00:28:02,836 Speaker 1: So I think it's fine, right, And then they are 543 00:28:02,876 --> 00:28:04,716 Speaker 1: just going to make up all types of stories because 544 00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:07,036 Speaker 1: our brain has this negativity bias, the stories are probably 545 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:08,636 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot meaner than what you're going to 546 00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:13,036 Speaker 1: tell them. So yeah, I suggest, you know, having a 547 00:28:13,116 --> 00:28:16,716 Speaker 1: conversation about it. It's not cruel. You're talking about yourself 548 00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:19,076 Speaker 1: and your own experience and how your needs have changed. 549 00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:23,756 Speaker 1: And I hope that this conversation happens after you've tried 550 00:28:23,836 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 1: to address the problem with them and given them a 551 00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:28,836 Speaker 1: chance to repair it, and it hasn't necessarily worked unless 552 00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:30,756 Speaker 1: it's a big betrayal. Of course, you know, if the 553 00:28:30,756 --> 00:28:33,836 Speaker 1: big betrayal, then it might be one thing that really 554 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:36,516 Speaker 1: has broken the friendship, but if it's something like smaller ongoing, 555 00:28:36,596 --> 00:28:39,636 Speaker 1: like sometimes I feel like in our conversations, you don't 556 00:28:39,636 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: give space to like hear about me, and we're mostly 557 00:28:41,876 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 1: focused on you. Like I hope that you have that 558 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,916 Speaker 1: conversation before deciding to end the friendship, but you know, 559 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:48,316 Speaker 1: if it's coming to a point where it's just like 560 00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I feel like we have really incompatible 561 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:55,756 Speaker 1: communication styles and that leaves me leaving our interactions feeling 562 00:28:55,796 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 1: like kind of sad. And that's why I'm feeling like 563 00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:02,116 Speaker 1: this friendship isn't necessarily working out for us anymore. Maybe 564 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:05,116 Speaker 1: you are trying to engage with me in a certain way, 565 00:29:05,116 --> 00:29:07,116 Speaker 1: but I just haven't been reading it that way, and 566 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: so that's why this friendship really hasn't felt like it's 567 00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:12,236 Speaker 1: working for me, you know, adding like I just wanted 568 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:15,476 Speaker 1: to make sure I was being upfront and transparent with 569 00:29:15,556 --> 00:29:20,436 Speaker 1: you moving forward something like that. It sounds cruel, but 570 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 1: it's a lot less cruel than not giving someone any closure. Yeah, 571 00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:29,596 Speaker 1: one piece of advice I took away from your book 572 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:32,796 Speaker 1: is that when a friendship ends for whatever reason, we 573 00:29:32,836 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 1: really need to give ourselves the space to grief. Because 574 00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that in our society, pain 575 00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:42,996 Speaker 1: associated with the loss of friendship is devalued. Yeah, it's 576 00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 1: this term called disenfranchised grief, which is like, when society 577 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 1: doesn't legitimize our loss, we can't legitimize it ourselves internally, 578 00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 1: and we might invalidate our own grief process. And there's 579 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: one thing you should know about grief, it's that you 580 00:29:56,636 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 1: can't just suppress it and push it away. That you 581 00:29:58,436 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 1: actually have to feel the grief for it to be 582 00:30:00,676 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: released from you. And so that's why I think a 583 00:30:03,236 --> 00:30:07,716 Speaker 1: lot of people that lose really close friends feel very isolated, 584 00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:11,596 Speaker 1: feel very alienated, can feel preoccupied with the loss for 585 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:15,236 Speaker 1: such a long period of time because they feel like 586 00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:18,956 Speaker 1: their loss isn't valid and their loss is it's significant, 587 00:30:18,956 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: while their body's telling them the opposite message that this 588 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:23,396 Speaker 1: is a being loss for you, that you have to 589 00:30:23,436 --> 00:30:25,956 Speaker 1: feel this and that you have to acknowledge it. And 590 00:30:25,996 --> 00:30:28,916 Speaker 1: so that's one of the reasons why some people are like, 591 00:30:29,036 --> 00:30:35,156 Speaker 1: friendship breakups hurt even more than divorce or romantic relationship breakup. Yeah. 592 00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:38,156 Speaker 1: I've been reading a lot of writing on this topic recently, 593 00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:40,436 Speaker 1: and there are many many people who have said that 594 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:43,516 Speaker 1: their friendships ending exactly as you say, we're far more 595 00:30:43,556 --> 00:30:46,636 Speaker 1: painful than any romantic relationship that came to an end. 596 00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:49,436 Speaker 1: So I'm at least grateful that you're giving us strategies 597 00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 1: for trying to end the friendships with a bit more 598 00:30:53,756 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 1: closure to the extent that can help us heal or 599 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,036 Speaker 1: help the other person heal. How has working in this 600 00:30:59,156 --> 00:31:02,036 Speaker 1: space changed the way that you think about the friends 601 00:31:02,036 --> 00:31:04,276 Speaker 1: in your life, Like, is there any anecdote that comes 602 00:31:04,276 --> 00:31:06,076 Speaker 1: to mine in which you think, Oh, as a result 603 00:31:06,156 --> 00:31:09,476 Speaker 1: of exploring this research for years, I'm now engage with 604 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:14,316 Speaker 1: my friends differently. So I aspire to hold friendship at 605 00:31:14,316 --> 00:31:17,476 Speaker 1: the same regard as I do romantic relationships, especially for 606 00:31:17,556 --> 00:31:21,316 Speaker 1: my closest friends in my life. So I had a 607 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 1: friend she was coming back from Mexico and arriving back 608 00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 1: from the airport at like twelve thirty am, and I 609 00:31:29,236 --> 00:31:30,996 Speaker 1: was contemplating whether I wanted to pick her up, and 610 00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:32,836 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm so tired, I'm in bed by 611 00:31:32,916 --> 00:31:37,836 Speaker 1: twelve midnight. And I asked myself would I offer to 612 00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:42,316 Speaker 1: pick up my romantic partner? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, 613 00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 1: Like I would stay up to pick up my romantic 614 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,996 Speaker 1: partner and so then I decided that I would go 615 00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:49,076 Speaker 1: offer to pick her up from the airport too, and 616 00:31:49,116 --> 00:31:51,436 Speaker 1: I did, and I realized this is the work. And 617 00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:53,916 Speaker 1: what was your friend's reaction to that? Like, what impact 618 00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:56,636 Speaker 1: do you think that had on your friendship? Oh, my gosh, 619 00:31:56,716 --> 00:32:00,476 Speaker 1: I think it really changed our friendship. I think she 620 00:32:00,636 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 1: realized that I was really invested in the friendship. Once 621 00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:06,316 Speaker 1: she realized I was invested, she started to invest. Like, 622 00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:09,236 Speaker 1: all my plants died because it got too cold, and 623 00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:12,156 Speaker 1: she noticed that, and she just came over and bought 624 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:15,276 Speaker 1: a plant for me. And then since then we've just 625 00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:17,556 Speaker 1: been like hanging out a lot more often, because I 626 00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:20,116 Speaker 1: think there's this freedom that comes from knowing this person 627 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:22,556 Speaker 1: loves you and is intentionally trying to invest in you 628 00:32:22,756 --> 00:32:25,236 Speaker 1: that allows each of us to engage in a lot 629 00:32:25,276 --> 00:32:28,836 Speaker 1: more of the risky behaviors that promote intimacy. I'd love 630 00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:31,596 Speaker 1: to enter conversation with a piece of research that you 631 00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:34,756 Speaker 1: talk about in your book, and it's about how we 632 00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:38,436 Speaker 1: tend to have the wrong idea about what people value 633 00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:41,676 Speaker 1: in us as friends. Yeah, and understanding this can actually 634 00:32:41,716 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: be quite empowering. Can you tell us more? Yeah, So 635 00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:46,636 Speaker 1: this is a study where people were asked to rate 636 00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:49,556 Speaker 1: the most important traits and a friend and I think 637 00:32:49,636 --> 00:32:52,996 Speaker 1: before studying friendship, I thought that trait was being charismatic 638 00:32:53,156 --> 00:32:56,716 Speaker 1: or entertaining or funny, that it was about kind of 639 00:32:56,756 --> 00:32:59,356 Speaker 1: like putting on his show to get people to like you. 640 00:32:59,716 --> 00:33:02,956 Speaker 1: But the number one trait people valued was this concept 641 00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: ego support, which is someone making you feel like you 642 00:33:05,196 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 1: matter and someone making you feel really valued and really loved. 643 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:11,876 Speaker 1: And I think this message is really hopeful because some 644 00:33:11,956 --> 00:33:13,916 Speaker 1: people think that if I want to make friends, I 645 00:33:13,956 --> 00:33:16,476 Speaker 1: have to change fundamentally who I am, And it's not 646 00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: about who you are. Making friends is about being loving 647 00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:57,076 Speaker 1: toward other people. Hey, thanks so much for listening to 648 00:33:57,156 --> 00:34:00,156 Speaker 1: this season of A Slight Change of Plans. I really 649 00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 1: hope you found these conversations helpful. The conversation you just 650 00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,796 Speaker 1: heard actually inspired me to reach out to my best 651 00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:10,476 Speaker 1: friend from childhood, Christine. I hadn't talked to her in 652 00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:15,596 Speaker 1: over twenty years. It was a magical reconnection. If something 653 00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:17,756 Speaker 1: you've heard on the show has changed the way you 654 00:34:17,796 --> 00:34:20,276 Speaker 1: approach your life, I'd love to hear from you on 655 00:34:20,356 --> 00:34:24,076 Speaker 1: Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. You can also check this 656 00:34:24,116 --> 00:34:27,516 Speaker 1: account for a sneak peak of our coming season. We'll 657 00:34:27,556 --> 00:34:29,956 Speaker 1: be back in your feeds in no time in late May. 658 00:34:30,396 --> 00:34:44,276 Speaker 1: I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 659 00:34:44,316 --> 00:34:47,756 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 660 00:34:47,836 --> 00:34:51,836 Speaker 1: Family includes our showrunner Tyler Greene, our senior editor Kate 661 00:34:51,876 --> 00:34:56,236 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate 662 00:34:56,276 --> 00:35:00,716 Speaker 1: producer Sarah McCrae. Louis Skara wrote our delightful theme song, 663 00:35:00,876 --> 00:35:04,516 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 664 00:35:04,516 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 665 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:11,156 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special 666 00:35:11,196 --> 00:35:15,196 Speaker 1: thanks to Jimmy Leek. You can follow a Slight Change 667 00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:39,676 Speaker 1: of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. Okay, am 668 00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:41,276 Speaker 1: I sounding like I have a little bit of a lag, 669 00:35:41,596 --> 00:35:42,956 Speaker 1: sounding like you have a little bit of a lock 670 00:35:43,156 --> 00:35:46,236 Speaker 1: to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have a lag? Okay, 671 00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:50,596 Speaker 1: it worked? Hello, Hi, oh, I think that's a lot better. 672 00:35:50,916 --> 00:35:53,276 Speaker 1: Can you just tell me what you eat for breakfast? Yes, 673 00:35:53,836 --> 00:35:58,716 Speaker 1: I had some fruits, some grapes, some cauliflower toast. Then 674 00:35:58,756 --> 00:36:01,876 Speaker 1: for lunch I had some rice and some fish and 675 00:36:02,036 --> 00:36:05,796 Speaker 1: some salad with olives and pickles. How am I sounding. 676 00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:12,516 Speaker 1: You're sounding like you're an extremely healthy person. Holiflower of bread. 677 00:36:12,516 --> 00:36:13,876 Speaker 1: What is califlower of bread.