Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not even that we have thoughts that are helpful.
Speaker 1: It's like the thought becomes I just want to run
Speaker 1: away from us, What can I do? What can I do?
Speaker 1: And what our brain generates is like what I can
Speaker 1: do next? Often isn't actually what we need to do
Speaker 1: to address that underlying emotion.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3: Have you ever had a day where you just feel off?
Speaker 3: Not sad exactly, not mad either, but just a swirling
Speaker 3: mess of feelings that won't sit still. I certainly have
Speaker 3: and as it turns out, that is completely normal. In fact,
Speaker 3: my guest today, Liz Fossiline, has spent years studying why
Speaker 3: we feel the way we feel and why we often
Speaker 3: believe we shouldn't feel that way. She's here to bust
Speaker 3: some of the biggest myths about emotions, like why anger
Speaker 3: isn't actually the enemy, where envy can be useful, and
Speaker 3: why it's not just you feeling like everyone else has
Speaker 3: it figured out. By the end of this episode, you'll
Speaker 3: walk away with a whole new way to think about
Speaker 3: your emotions, one that just might make your life a
Speaker 3: little lighter, a little easier, and a little more human.
Speaker 3: I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Hi, Liz,
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be
Speaker 1: here again.
Speaker 3: Yes, excited to have you back again. And you have
Speaker 3: a new book called Big Feelings, How to Be Okay
Speaker 3: When Things Are Not Okay, which is a great topic
Speaker 3: that I know listeners are going to love. But before
Speaker 3: we get into the book, let's start, like we always do,
Speaker 3: with a parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their
Speaker 3: grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 3: inside of us. That are always at battle when it
Speaker 3: is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 3: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 3: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 3: the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 3: looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins?
Speaker 3: The grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like
Speaker 3: to start off by asking you what that parable means
Speaker 3: to you in your life and in the work that
Speaker 3: you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I like that it acknowledges that we all
Speaker 1: experience these emotions and have these within ourselves. I think
Speaker 1: that's a common misconception when people maybe feed or feel
Speaker 1: the sort of quote unquote negative emotions, that they're alone
Speaker 1: in it. So I really like that. And then I
Speaker 1: think the concept of feeding these emotions is really great too.
Speaker 1: Something that I look at a lot in my work
Speaker 1: is when you're experiencing something that's difficult, how do you
Speaker 1: learn from it but then try to move through it
Speaker 1: so that it gives you some useful information, but you
Speaker 1: don't get tangled up in it and continue to feed
Speaker 1: it and get dragged into it. So I really love
Speaker 1: that parable.
Speaker 3: You hit on something there that you talk about early
Speaker 3: on in the book, which is really some myths about
Speaker 3: what you're calling big feelings. You hit one of the
Speaker 3: myths there, But can you talk about a couple of
Speaker 3: the others.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think the one you're mentioning a hit on
Speaker 1: which I actually think is worth revisiting again is for
Speaker 1: the book, we surveyed about fifteen hundred people all across
Speaker 1: the world from all different backgrounds, and we ask them,
Speaker 1: have you experienced any of these big feelings, which in
Speaker 1: the book include things like anger, envy, and out perfectionism,
Speaker 1: And basically to a person, everyone said yes. And so
Speaker 1: I think one of the myths is again that when
Speaker 1: we experience envy, that we should feel ashamed because we're
Speaker 1: the only person feeling that, which is absolutely not true.
Speaker 1: Another one is just around the intensity of those feelings,
Speaker 1: that people often also think in comparison to others that
Speaker 1: they're the only ones that are really getting bogged down
Speaker 1: in I think depression is a good example of this.
Speaker 1: When you feel despair, often you feel like everyone else
Speaker 1: is thriving, and that's one of the ways in which
Speaker 1: it warps your view of the world. And that's just
Speaker 1: also not true. And then the last one that we
Speaker 1: cover in the beginning of the book is just that
Speaker 1: there are good quote unquote and bad feelings, so things
Speaker 1: like envy. Anger is one too. We're often taught that
Speaker 1: anger is associated with violence and is really harmful to
Speaker 1: other people. And there are absolutely ways that you can
Speaker 1: express anger, like punching a wall or punching a person,
Speaker 1: that are harmful. But at its core, anger can motivate us.
Speaker 1: It's just a flag that there has been a violation,
Speaker 1: so it can motivate us to advocate for ourselves, to
Speaker 1: find a better situation for ourselves, to advocate for someone else.
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't call that a bad emotion. You can
Speaker 1: take bad actions based on it, but at its core,
Speaker 1: an emotion is simply data and something that your brain
Speaker 1: is producing.
Speaker 3: Right, And we've got this podcast Parable that talks about
Speaker 3: you know, good wolf and bad Wolf, which if we're
Speaker 3: not careful, sets that myth up, which is that negative
Speaker 3: emotions quote unquote negative emotions are bad. It's why I
Speaker 3: love the take that you had, and it's one of
Speaker 3: the reasons I love the Parable is it just says like, hey,
Speaker 3: everybody has these you know, that's I think so so
Speaker 3: important and you know, the thing that's really interesting And
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this a lot lately because we've
Speaker 3: had a couple of guests recently that have talked about this.
Speaker 3: One is a woman named Sarah Fay who just released
Speaker 3: a book. She's diagnosed with six different things over her life, right,
Speaker 3: and she sort of takes on the DSM, which is
Speaker 3: the way that you know, mental health professionals diagnose people.
Speaker 3: But I think it gets to the question of when
Speaker 3: is something normal human emotion that we all go through,
Speaker 3: and when is something what we would classify as mental illness,
Speaker 3: and is that distinction even useful? Curious your thoughts.
Speaker 1: I'm not a licensed psychiatrist to make these calls.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, sort of.
Speaker 1: My intuition on this is that when it becomes something
Speaker 1: that you really can't move through, and when you're actively
Speaker 1: harming yourself or other people, that's when it requires maybe
Speaker 1: medication or it is more professional help. But that said,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think medication and professional help can be
Speaker 1: useful even if you're sort of depressed but functioning. So
Speaker 1: I think it's it's always valuable to consider these things
Speaker 1: on a spectrum. And so I think there's not like
Speaker 1: a clear line. Sometimes it's just a judgment call that
Speaker 1: you make yourself or the people around you make, or
Speaker 1: your therapist makes of Okay, at this point there needs
Speaker 1: to be some more serious intervention. But I think I
Speaker 1: don't feel like the depths of some of these like
Speaker 1: really more sort of quote unquote severe disorders better in
Speaker 1: the DSM. But on any given day, I feel good
Speaker 1: and then an hour later I feel bad, and you
Speaker 1: you know, like, is that am I like vacillating too
Speaker 1: much between emotion? I don't know. That's my baseline. So
Speaker 1: these are all definitely like arbitrary lines that are still
Speaker 1: useful to have in some cases.
Speaker 3: Totally, yeah, And I do think every case is different,
Speaker 3: and it's something I think a lot about as someone
Speaker 3: who has what I would call maybe today i'll call
Speaker 3: it depressive tendencies instead of saying, you know, I have depression,
Speaker 3: I have a tendency in that direction. But at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, I think that the tools that
Speaker 3: are very useful for working with a lot of these
Speaker 3: things are the same regardless. And that's really where you
Speaker 3: guys spend a lot of time in the book. You
Speaker 3: go through these big feelings and for each of them,
Speaker 3: you talk about some myths and then you talk about
Speaker 3: how to work with each of them. I love the
Speaker 3: structure of the book. It's laid out very clearly, very helpfully,
Speaker 3: and of course it has the drawings for which you
Speaker 3: guys are are very well known. They're so great. They
Speaker 3: really add so much that we just won't get in
Speaker 3: a visual or we won't get in an audio only conversation,
Speaker 3: but they add so much to the book. Let's jump
Speaker 3: into some of the big feelings. Is there anyone that
Speaker 3: you would like to hit one that feels like more
Speaker 3: top of mind today for you than others. I've got
Speaker 3: a couple I might choose, but I'm curious what you
Speaker 3: might choose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I would choose uncertainty and perfectionism. Uncertainty,
Speaker 1: you know, the last two years easy to say, they've
Speaker 1: been very uncertain. Indeed, that's the one that I've struggled
Speaker 1: with a lot, and I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: have as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, so what are some of the myths around uncertainty?
Speaker 1: Two that resonated with me when I first started to
Speaker 1: investigate them. The first was that certainty is attainable. It's
Speaker 1: really comforting to think, Oh, I just wish I could
Speaker 1: go back to when I was a child and things
Speaker 1: were certain or pre pandemic, when life was more it
Speaker 1: was just obvious what was going to happen next, and
Speaker 1: I could plan for it. And the truth is, you
Speaker 1: can never plan for the future because you can never
Speaker 1: exactly predict what it is. And yes, there are times
Speaker 1: when there's more alarming things that could happen in the future,
Speaker 1: but generally, I think it's actually really useful to let
Speaker 1: go of this myth that there is a perfect stability
Speaker 1: that you can attain, because again, it helps you look
Speaker 1: back at your life and say, I've always been operating
Speaker 1: in some level of uncertainty, and for the most part,
Speaker 1: I've been able to successfully navigate it. I'm still here,
Speaker 1: So I think that can help you even in moments
Speaker 1: that feel a little more unstable than others. And then
Speaker 1: the second myth is that the anxiety we feel in
Speaker 1: the face of uncertainty is is perfectly predictive of how
Speaker 1: much risk we face. So I think it's so easy
Speaker 1: to wake up in the morning with this like nebulous
Speaker 1: pit of anxiety in your stomach and then lean into
Speaker 1: that and say, oh, because I feel bad. That means
Speaker 1: something bad is going to happen, and now I need
Speaker 1: to be on full alert and in panic mode.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One funny thing that I don't know. Funny, but somehow
Speaker 1: a lot of the research around uncertainty involves shocking people,
Speaker 1: like giving them harmless but painful electric shocks. Like every
Speaker 1: single study involved this, so uncertainty researchers loved electric shocks.
Speaker 1: That seems actually fairly certain. But in one of these.
Speaker 3: Okay, but in one of these studies, I'm not going
Speaker 3: to sign up for any studies around uncertainty. I do not.
Speaker 3: As somebody owned an old guitar amplifier in really lousy
Speaker 3: houses in a long time ago, I used to get
Speaker 3: shocked all the time. I hate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so same. I'm not signing up for any
Speaker 1: of those. But in one of these studies, they segmented
Speaker 1: people randomly into two groups, and one group had a
Speaker 1: ninety percent chance of getting shocked, so it was pretty
Speaker 1: much guaranteed that they were going to get this painful experience.
Speaker 1: The other group had a fifty percent chance, and the
Speaker 1: group that had a fifty percent chance was three times
Speaker 1: more stressed than the group that was certain they were
Speaker 1: going to get shocked, which speaks to this like we
Speaker 1: would rather know that something bad is going to happen
Speaker 1: then not know what's going to happen. So we really
Speaker 1: really hate uncertainty, which again speaks to like, you can
Speaker 1: be super anxious, but that doesn't mean that you're guaranteed
Speaker 1: a horrible thing that's about to happen.
Speaker 3: There's a couple things in what you said there that
Speaker 3: I think are important. That this idea that certainty ever
Speaker 3: exists is certainly a myth, Like I think those of
Speaker 3: us who study Buddhism and they sort of bang us
Speaker 3: over the head with this sort of stuff, like you know,
Speaker 3: it doesn't exist. There's a poet author out there, Mark Nepo,
Speaker 3: who talks about something called the terrible knowledge, which is
Speaker 3: that anything can happen to anyone at any time. And
Speaker 3: I think that's true. But I think there's a pow
Speaker 3: positive too to recognizing uncertainty. Besides feeling less anxious about it.
Speaker 3: The other positive is you don't take things for granted
Speaker 3: as much if you actually realize the true uncertainty of things.
Speaker 3: You recognize like, oh, you know, let me be grateful
Speaker 3: for my dog who's laying here right next to me,
Speaker 3: because I just don't know how much longer that will happen.
Speaker 3: You know it can. Knowledge of uncertainty can also contribute
Speaker 3: to our lives in positive ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. I have a friend who is, you know,
Speaker 1: in his early thirties, extremely oppressive athlete, eats very healthy,
Speaker 1: and he had some pain in his ankle last year
Speaker 1: which then was diagnosed as bone cancer and needed an amputation,
Speaker 1: and just like you know, had a horrendous year and
Speaker 1: now luckily it seems to be in remission. But I
Speaker 1: just remember that experience like it really felt like out
Speaker 1: of nowhere. Yeah. I don't want to use his story
Speaker 1: as like it made me feel really good, but it did.
Speaker 1: It kind of crystallized like out of all of us,
Speaker 1: he's the last person I would have predicted to have
Speaker 1: such a health crisis at this age, and that it
Speaker 1: just like put my own health in much more perspective.
Speaker 1: And I agree with you, it made it was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: things like this do happen, and it's horrifying. And so
Speaker 1: even if I'm not having a great day, I'm still
Speaker 1: grateful that generally things are okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the next question I'm going to ask, is
Speaker 3: you know, as we look at working with emotions and
Speaker 3: people who talk about emotions and theorize about emotions, some
Speaker 3: people have a belief that like thoughts cause our emotions,
Speaker 3: you know, there's a there's a you know, thoughts leading
Speaker 3: to emotion. There's other people that think it's more complicated
Speaker 3: than that. And when you were talking about anxiety, it
Speaker 3: made me think of that sense of somehow some days
Speaker 3: you just wake up and before you've even had a thought,
Speaker 3: there's a mood, and then it's like every thought gets
Speaker 3: filtered kind of through that mood. Is that sort of
Speaker 3: what you were talking about with like anxiety, Like you
Speaker 3: wake up and it's just, you know, you feel a
Speaker 3: certain way, and now all of a sudden, your thoughts
Speaker 3: all take on the color of that feeling.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yes. So my view is that emotions are often
Speaker 1: the product of like stimuli we're taking in, and it
Speaker 1: can just be a result of our brain chemistry, which
Speaker 1: is often the cause as well. And so I think
Speaker 1: it depends on how you define a thought. But then
Speaker 1: like the conscious thoughts we have get as you said,
Speaker 1: filtered through this emotion that's coming up. So one example
Speaker 1: of kind of how I consider emotion is way way
Speaker 1: back in the day, if a lion was charging towards you,
Speaker 1: it was really important that you just feel fear right away,
Speaker 1: that your brain was able to process like lion coming
Speaker 1: fear right away, and that it wasn't like this very
Speaker 1: conscious like, oh there's a lion, perhaps you know, and
Speaker 1: you can I think you can debate forever if the
Speaker 1: thought comes first what a thought is, but then everything
Speaker 1: after that is filtered through this like physiological response you're
Speaker 1: having in response to that emotion. And with anxiety, I
Speaker 1: think it's the same, right, So if you doom scroll
Speaker 1: late at night, go to bed, have bad dreams, or
Speaker 1: there's just this subconscious thing running through you that the
Speaker 1: future is really scary, there's all these horrible things happening
Speaker 1: in the world. You wake up, you have this pit
Speaker 1: you're not even really conscious of what thoughts are driving that.
Speaker 1: But then that starts to create these thoughts that might
Speaker 1: not necessarily be true for me personally, which as I've
Speaker 1: talked to people, I think a lot of people experience this.
Speaker 1: It also generates this frantic energy that leads you to
Speaker 1: kind of exhaust yourself in an effort to get over
Speaker 1: the anxiety. But because you're not sitting with it and
Speaker 1: really trying to understand what might be driving it. It's
Speaker 1: not productive. So to give more color to that, I
Speaker 1: used to wake up, especially during the early days of
Speaker 1: the pandemic, feel so anxious, and I would just vacuum
Speaker 1: the floor, I would answer all my emails, I would
Speaker 1: create all these new projects for myself. I would call someone.
Speaker 1: I would just have this to do list and mercilessly
Speaker 1: bang my way through it. And at the end of
Speaker 1: the day I was just exhausted. But I had never
Speaker 1: stopped to think, why am I anxious? Like what can
Speaker 1: I actually do about that underlying emotion? So I just
Speaker 1: didn't feel any better, actually felt way worse. And so
Speaker 1: I think that's also sometimes it's not even that we
Speaker 1: have thoughts that are helpful. It's like the thought becomes
Speaker 1: I just want to run away from this. What can
Speaker 1: I do? What can I do? And what our brain
Speaker 1: generates is like what I can do next often isn't
Speaker 1: actually what we need to do to address that underlying emotion.
Speaker 3: So what are some tools for working with uncertainty?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the first is just to stop this cycle
Speaker 1: of what psychologists call anxious fixing. So this is you
Speaker 1: feel anxiety and it feels good to cross things off
Speaker 1: a checklist, and so you do, and you do, and
Speaker 1: you do, but you're not actually addressing that underlying need.
Speaker 1: So it's really just in this case, when you feel
Speaker 1: that overwhelming panic or anxiety, it's to stop and don't
Speaker 1: rush into anything else. Just sit there and say, like,
Speaker 1: I'm this moment, I'm very anxious, and then try to
Speaker 1: think through, like what are my fears? So anxiety is
Speaker 1: more nebulous, this sort of anxious feeling we have, versus
Speaker 1: a fear, which is centered around something specific. And so
Speaker 1: you might say, you know, over the past, you like,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid I'll get COVID, I'm afraid someone I love
Speaker 1: will get COVID, and those are terrifying things. But once
Speaker 1: you actually map out the exact fears you have, it's
Speaker 1: easier to start thinking what can I do to prevent that?
Speaker 1: What steps can I take? Versus with anxiety, there's not
Speaker 1: a clear next step, So I think the first piece
Speaker 1: of advice would just be just stop and sit with it.
Speaker 1: As uncomfortable as that might feel in the moment, it's
Speaker 1: really important, yep.
Speaker 3: And then you sort of let into another one there,
Speaker 3: which is to try and go from vague anxiety into
Speaker 3: more specific fears like what am I really afraid of?
Speaker 3: And you know, the more specific oftentimes the better.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one thing that came out a lot
Speaker 1: as I was speaking with both experts and then just
Speaker 1: people about this is some people mentioned they find it
Speaker 1: useful to ask themselves what's the worst thing that could happen,
Speaker 1: and then realizing that it's not so bad is comforting
Speaker 1: to them. And so if that works for you, that's great.
Speaker 1: I do want to share that tip. For me personally,
Speaker 1: I can come up with some really doomsday so, you know,
Speaker 1: like what's the worst thing that can happen? I am
Speaker 1: very creative when it comes to this question. So if
Speaker 1: that's you, I would not ask that, or I would
Speaker 1: say what's the worst thing that could happen? And then
Speaker 1: follow it up with what's the best thing that could happen?
Speaker 1: And what is the likelihood that the worst thing happens? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because often it's like, yeah, I dreamed up this nightmare scenario,
Speaker 1: but it's extremely unlikely that that's actually what's going to
Speaker 1: happen tomorrow, and so it's important to keep that in
Speaker 1: mind as well.
Speaker 3: Makes me laugh. My partner's mom has Alzheimer's that that
Speaker 3: does not make me laugh, but within that, you know,
Speaker 3: humor is helpful. And she would get these anxious fears,
Speaker 3: and so I would try and reason with her, like
Speaker 3: she was always afraid she was going to starve to death.
Speaker 3: I'd be like, well, you're not, you know, and I'd
Speaker 3: start going into why she's not going to starve to death.
Speaker 3: Every time she would just come up with a more
Speaker 3: and more fantastical story about how this was going to happen.
Speaker 3: And I just after a while I realized, like this,
Speaker 3: this is this is not working, like, you know, like
Speaker 3: this is one where her ability to dream up scenarios
Speaker 3: is well beyond my ability to you know, come up
Speaker 3: with contingency plans. And I know some people who are
Speaker 3: like that also like, you know, what's the worst thing
Speaker 3: that can happen? They've got some doozies.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh yeah, that's definitely me.
Speaker 3: What's the worst thing that can happen for me? Is
Speaker 3: generally a pretty good one, you know, because I'll go like, well,
Speaker 3: you know, I guess we won't make any money. If
Speaker 3: we don't make any money for a few months, you know,
Speaker 3: I'll figure it out, which sort of leads me to
Speaker 3: another one of your for uncertainty, which is to sort
Speaker 3: of reflect on moments that bring you confidence or reflect
Speaker 3: on your ability to cope with what uncertainty brings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is I think one of the best
Speaker 1: ways to navigate uncertainty. It's not about creating confidence for
Speaker 1: yourself that something is going to happen at a future
Speaker 1: point in time, because, like we said, you can't really
Speaker 1: do that. It's about building confidence that you will be
Speaker 1: able to handle it. And so one great way to
Speaker 1: do that is to look back and try to find
Speaker 1: moments when you were overwhelmed or you didn't think you
Speaker 1: could make it through an experience and you did so.
Speaker 1: For example, I actually, for I don't know twenty years,
Speaker 1: struggled with a really intense needle phobia and I went
Speaker 1: to cognitive behavioral therapy to overcome it. But it was
Speaker 1: an example of where my anxiety was absolutely not proportional
Speaker 1: to the risk, right, Like getting your blood drawn is
Speaker 1: a very low risk procedure, and I look like faint,
Speaker 1: I couldn't sleep for days. I would avoid going to
Speaker 1: the doctor because I just didn't even want to risk
Speaker 1: meeting blood work, and so through CBT, I was able
Speaker 1: to gradually, like expose myself to the situation more and more.
Speaker 1: And now it's still an unpleasant experience. But every time
Speaker 1: I feel this fear, I remind myself think back to
Speaker 1: the last blood draw, where everything was fine, you didn't
Speaker 1: pass out, you were able to make it through. And
Speaker 1: so every subsequent blood draw has been easier and easier
Speaker 1: because I've built that confidence in myself. And so the
Speaker 1: same thing can be applied to uncertainty. If you've gone
Speaker 1: through something really hard, Often we wish we hadn't had
Speaker 1: to go through that hard thing, but you can take
Speaker 1: away the lesson that you are capable of surviving it
Speaker 1: and of making it through. And one quick phrase I
Speaker 1: want to end with on this is I found it
Speaker 1: so valuable to also tell myself I am a person
Speaker 1: learning to X so when you're confronted with uncertainty, saying
Speaker 1: like I need to have it all figured out right now,
Speaker 1: I can't do this. Just I'm a person learning to
Speaker 1: continue to move through uncertainty. And I've done it before
Speaker 1: and there's lessons there, but I'm still going to find
Speaker 1: new ways to do it. And I think that phrase
Speaker 1: can really help you shift your mindset to be more
Speaker 1: open to It's okay, I will make it through this.
Speaker 3: Excellent. Well let's move on to I think you chose
Speaker 3: perfectionism as your next one, right.
Speaker 1: I did. Yes, this is a big one for me.
Speaker 3: Tell us about your perfectionism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my perfectionism definitely manifests in my work. So just
Speaker 1: I think becoming overly obsessive with getting to one hundred
Speaker 1: percent versus you know, saying like in this case, actually
Speaker 1: eighty percent is more than an help and it's actually
Speaker 1: better for everyone if I don't spend more time on this.
Speaker 1: But it also has shown up a lot in my
Speaker 1: personal relationships. So when I first started dating my now husband,
Speaker 1: I felt in many ways that I was two people.
Speaker 1: And the first was me, who sometimes you know, likes
Speaker 1: to stand in my case and radial pajamas and eat
Speaker 1: cheese directly from the fridge. And then the person that
Speaker 1: I was when we were dating and not living together,
Speaker 1: which I always you know, I would put on makeup
Speaker 1: and tried to be funny and gregarious and have stories
Speaker 1: and would eat really politely. And then when the relationship
Speaker 1: was going well, and then we talked about moving in together,
Speaker 1: and that was terrifying for me because I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's going to discover this person that's
Speaker 1: so different, that's kind of a mess, that has anxiety
Speaker 1: attacks at night. I just hidden that all away because
Speaker 1: I really thought that to be in a relationship, to
Speaker 1: have someone love you, you just had to be perfect
Speaker 1: and you had to be fun to be around all
Speaker 1: the time. So it's for a lot of my life
Speaker 1: shown up sort of in every facet of both professional
Speaker 1: and personal life.
Speaker 3: Before we get into coping tools, let's follow the way
Speaker 3: we've been going, which is what's a couple of myths
Speaker 3: people have about perfectionism.
Speaker 1: So one myth is that you're not a perfectionist. And
Speaker 1: I think people who have perfectionist tendencies often they're so
Speaker 1: hard on themselves that it's incomprehensible to them that they'd
Speaker 1: be a perfectionist, because they're like, I'm not perfect. I'm
Speaker 1: a complete failure. I'm not perfectly dressed for every situation.
Speaker 1: I don't ace every single presentation at work. How can
Speaker 1: I be a perfectionist? And perfectionism is not about like
Speaker 1: color coded folders and looking a certain way or behaving
Speaker 1: a certain way, it's about death, really trying to avoid failing.
Speaker 1: So it's one thing to aim for one hundred percent
Speaker 1: on the test and get ninety four percent and feel
Speaker 1: pretty good. It's another to aim for one hundred, get
Speaker 1: ninety eight and then beat yourself up because you didn't
Speaker 1: get that one question. And that's perfectionism. So I think,
Speaker 1: being honest with yourself, that you might have these tendencies
Speaker 1: even if you don't think of yourself as perfect or perfectionist.
Speaker 1: And then another one is that perfectionism helps us. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of myself included it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: if I abandon this, if I try to move away
Speaker 1: from these thoughts or tendencies, I'll turn into a couch
Speaker 1: potato and I won't have any drive and I'll just
Speaker 1: be a complete basket case on the floor. When in fact, perfectionism,
Speaker 1: a lot of research shows, makes you focus so much
Speaker 1: on this fear of failure that it holds you back
Speaker 1: much more than it helps you move forward. So the
Speaker 1: two are you might have perfectionist tendencies even if you
Speaker 1: don't think, and then once you accept that it's okay
Speaker 1: to move away from them, they are not as helpful
Speaker 1: as you think. They are.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the third myth is what you sort
Speaker 3: of hit on in your personal story, which is, you know,
Speaker 3: I have to be perfect to be valued.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think that for many people shows
Speaker 1: up in their personal lives.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. How have you worked with perfection in your
Speaker 3: own life? And then you know, we can go into
Speaker 3: some of the tools from the book, but I'm just
Speaker 3: kind of curious, like in your personal life, like that's
Speaker 3: a big one, you know, how have you worked through that?
Speaker 1: Yeah? So I did see a therapist, which was really helpful.
Speaker 1: And the story I share in the book that has
Speaker 1: stuck with me the most is my therapist asked me
Speaker 1: to recall a time, like just a really great experience
Speaker 1: I had with a pet. And I remember this like
Speaker 1: grumpy Persian cat that I used to cat sit and she,
Speaker 1: you know, she had the face that indicated she hated everyone,
Speaker 1: and she had a breathing problem at that point, so
Speaker 1: she would have these little snorts and I adored this
Speaker 1: cat and she would, you know, she would just like
Speaker 1: come and sit, and sometimes she looked she seemed like irritated.
Speaker 1: I was there, but just by sitting there, like I
Speaker 1: just liked to be around this cat. And my therapist said,
Speaker 1: isn't it possible that, like, your boyfriend just likes to
Speaker 1: be around you, And even if you're just sitting on
Speaker 1: the couch and you're not telling a joke and you
Speaker 1: don't look a certain way, that there's just a lot
Speaker 1: of comfort in having another person be there, even if
Speaker 1: they're just being there. And so that is something. And
Speaker 1: I also think about my mom. If I call her,
Speaker 1: I have a close relationship with her, it helps me
Speaker 1: feel better. And that's how I felt about my boyfriend,
Speaker 1: Like he didn't you know, if he just woke up
Speaker 1: and had bed head and everything, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just loved that he was there, and so starting
Speaker 1: to see things from that perspective. And then the second
Speaker 1: was also actually one of the tips that is in
Speaker 1: the book too, is about moving away from avoidance goals
Speaker 1: to approach goals. And so an avoidance school is avoiding failure.
Speaker 1: So I don't want him to see me without makeup,
Speaker 1: and an approach goal is about attaining something positive, and
Speaker 1: an approach goals and hair currently more exciting and you
Speaker 1: feel good when you reach it, right, Like if you
Speaker 1: just avoid failure, that's not an inspiring goal, You're going
Speaker 1: to avoid failure, and it's like, great, Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: get anything out of this. So in the context of
Speaker 1: that relationship, an approach goal might have been I'm gonna
Speaker 1: put on my ratty pajamas and I'm going to show
Speaker 1: him my favorite cheese and We're actually gonna have like
Speaker 1: a fun time eating cheese out of the fridge together,
Speaker 1: you know, and like that it was just like opening
Speaker 1: up a little more. But then it was also it
Speaker 1: culminated in this like really fun bonding experience. And so
Speaker 1: often we just get into this mindset of I don't
Speaker 1: want to mess up this presentation, and instead, if we
Speaker 1: think free of expectations, how can I just really show
Speaker 1: people how excited I am about the material? And that's
Speaker 1: a really different way of starting to work on that presentation.
Speaker 3: I wanted to pause for a quick good Wolf reminder.
Speaker 3: This one's about a habit change and a mistake I
Speaker 3: see people, And that's really that we don't think about
Speaker 3: these new habits that we want to add in the
Speaker 3: context of our entire life.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit
Speaker 3: in the life that we have. So When we just
Speaker 3: keep adding I should do this, I should do that,
Speaker 3: I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't
Speaker 3: really thought about what we're not going to do in
Speaker 3: order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for
Speaker 3: you to think about where is this going to fit
Speaker 3: and what in my life might I need to remove.
Speaker 3: If you want to step by step guide for how
Speaker 3: you can easily build new habits that feed your good Wolf,
Speaker 3: go to good Wolf dot me, slash change and join
Speaker 3: the free masterclass. You talked about not needing to get
Speaker 3: things to one hundred percent as being one thing to do.
Speaker 3: How do you start to know within yourself when you're
Speaker 3: sort of in that zone of like, Okay, I'm spending
Speaker 3: a ton of extra time to get very little value
Speaker 3: out of that. How do you know that? Because I
Speaker 3: think that's hard for perfectionists. And then secondly, once you
Speaker 3: know that, what are some of the things you might
Speaker 3: say to yourself to actually get you to set it
Speaker 3: down and move on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So one question that I found helpful is when
Speaker 1: would I be ready to ask someone for feedback and
Speaker 1: they could give me useful feedback. Usually if you get
Speaker 1: to one hundred percent you're actually not open to feedback
Speaker 1: anymore because you're like, this is great. I don't why
Speaker 1: should I need anyone to help me?
Speaker 3: That's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if i'm let's say I'm writing an article,
Speaker 1: I also can't hand someone a page that just has
Speaker 1: completely incomprehensible notes on it. They're not going to give
Speaker 1: me feedback. So I think that's a nice heuristic of
Speaker 1: like when is this in enough shape where someone gets
Speaker 1: where I'm going and they can provide useful direction. I
Speaker 1: think that's one, and then I think it's also just
Speaker 1: opening yourself to learning and so saying Another thing that
Speaker 1: I found useful is if I am in a silo
Speaker 1: working on this till one hundred percent, I might get
Speaker 1: to one hundred percent and realize this is not something
Speaker 1: that resonates with people or not what my boss wanted.
Speaker 1: So I'm actually creating more work for everyone as opposed
Speaker 1: to like handing it to her at like seventy percent
Speaker 1: and then maybe making some course corrections. So it's about
Speaker 1: creating some breaks for yourself. And then also I really
Speaker 1: like this question of like when would this be ready
Speaker 1: for feedback?
Speaker 3: Yeah, my partner and I were talking about that recently
Speaker 3: in that, you know, when I'm giving a talk for
Speaker 3: our Spiritual Habits program or you know, the second Spiritual
Speaker 3: Habit circle of Connection she co teaches. But I tend
Speaker 3: to start the lessons. And what I realized was exactly
Speaker 3: what you just said, although I wouldn't articulate it as well,
Speaker 3: which is that I think I'm almost done by the
Speaker 3: time I bring her in, and at that point, I
Speaker 3: don't really want feedback because what I want is to
Speaker 3: be done, you know, Like I think I'm done, you know.
Speaker 3: And so we talked about, like I got to bring
Speaker 3: her in, like there's got to be enough there for
Speaker 3: her to critique. To your point, like, but I need
Speaker 3: to bring her in much earlier, because I may be
Speaker 3: way more open to feedback at that point and not
Speaker 3: take it in the way that I you know, sometimes
Speaker 3: I just get a little grumpy, you know. And the
Speaker 3: more time I spend with it, oftentimes, the more attached
Speaker 3: I get to the way it is totally, which is
Speaker 3: in the music business, we used to call it rough
Speaker 3: mix itis. Right, You've listened to it this certain way,
Speaker 3: in this rough mix for so long that that's how
Speaker 3: you think it should sound. And somebody comes along and
Speaker 3: may have a much better mix, but you're not open
Speaker 3: to it because you're sort of mired in what your
Speaker 3: idea of it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love those examples. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: You also talk about one of my very favorite topics,
Speaker 3: which is how extreme language can cause extreme emotion, and
Speaker 3: you talk about getting rid of always and never.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so those are two words that usually show you've
Speaker 1: slipped into your perfectionist tendencies and that your self reflection
Speaker 1: has turned self destruct So examples are good parents never
Speaker 1: yell at their kids, great employees are always turning everything
Speaker 1: in five days before the deadline, and those are like
Speaker 1: extreme views of the world that just aren't true. So again,
Speaker 1: it's usually a sign that whatever thought is banging around
Speaker 1: your brain is not an accurate perception of reality. And
Speaker 1: so I think it's nice to have those words so
Speaker 1: that when you notice them, say like, oh, okay, I
Speaker 1: see what's happening here. I need to think about this differently,
Speaker 1: so you know, like, good parents never feel frustrated at
Speaker 1: their kids, and actually say, like, good parents do feel frustrated.
Speaker 1: It's totally fine. How can I just navigate through this situation?
Speaker 1: How can I make it better. In a work context,
Speaker 1: you know, great employees or emplolies who get promoted never
Speaker 1: make mistakes. Also not true, and so it allows you
Speaker 1: to step back from that and say, I made a mistake.
Speaker 1: Can I ask my boss for advice on how to
Speaker 1: avoid me making that mistake in the future. I think
Speaker 1: it just allows you to detach a little bit from
Speaker 1: these extreme ways of thinking that cause us to berate
Speaker 1: ourselves and then start to feel really down and low.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those two words tend to be destructive wherever they
Speaker 3: show up, whether it's in our own lives, like you said,
Speaker 3: a good parent should never get angry, or when we're
Speaker 3: communicating to somebody else, you always do this or you
Speaker 3: never do that. You know, like they just they're troublesome words.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that you brought up to in communication
Speaker 1: and conversation. You know, if you say you always do ACX,
Speaker 1: that person is just immediately going to come up with
Speaker 1: an example of when they didn't do it.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not a useful conversation.
Speaker 3: I'm sure I've done plenty of the saying always or never,
Speaker 3: but I know for sure I've been in relationships with
Speaker 3: people who have used those phrases and you're right. I'm
Speaker 3: immediately like, but that's not true, you know, like you know,
Speaker 3: which is missing the point totally. A more nuanced version
Speaker 3: of me would be like, all right, I understand what
Speaker 3: they're saying. Underneath ignore the words. You know, that's a feeling.
Speaker 3: But but it's very hard, it's very hard to not
Speaker 3: counter you know, a factual incorrectness there.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm mm hmmm mm hmmm, h m hm, h.
Speaker 3: M hm m hmmmmmm.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3: You talk about naming your inner perfectionist and finding a
Speaker 3: non perfectionist role model, say a little more about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's again a method to allow yourself to
Speaker 1: distance yourself from your thoughts. And so you know, for
Speaker 1: your perfectionist, it might be a part of you that
Speaker 1: is useful to engage with sometimes, but you don't want
Speaker 1: it to consume all of you. And so calling your
Speaker 1: perfectionist I think in the book we give examples of
Speaker 1: like Grace or Darth Vader or Bozo. It can be
Speaker 1: a goofy name whatever feels good to you. And then
Speaker 1: when you start to have these thoughts like good parents
Speaker 1: always do X, great employees never do HY, saying like Oh,
Speaker 1: that's Bob, my inner perfectionist. And I'm actually going to say, like,
Speaker 1: what does Bob want in this moment? Right, Like there
Speaker 1: actually might be some useful information in there, like Bob
Speaker 1: really wants to be a great employee. It's useful to
Speaker 1: know that, like, oh, I do want to do well
Speaker 1: in this job, but you're not sort of like leaning
Speaker 1: into those emotions and taking them or those thoughts and
Speaker 1: taking them as fact and then a non perfectionist role model.
Speaker 1: I think it's actually really useful if there's someone at
Speaker 1: work that you really admire, a mentor just someone in
Speaker 1: your personal life to also note when they flub something
Speaker 1: or they don't immediately respond to an email, because again,
Speaker 1: I think it helps you realize that everyone makes mistakes.
Speaker 1: No one is like on their A game twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven, and so you can still be successful and
Speaker 1: impressive and this incredible person in someone's life even if
Speaker 1: you're not, you know, striking a home run every second
Speaker 1: of the day.
Speaker 3: If anyone needs a clear example of non perfection in
Speaker 3: their life, I offer myself up.
Speaker 1: Say I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love naming my inner characters. I've shared often,
Speaker 3: you know about my inner depressive tendency. Person is ere
Speaker 3: you know from Winnie the Pooh.
Speaker 1: You know that's a good way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it makes me kind of laugh every
Speaker 3: time I start putting my thoughts in your's voice, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's good. So I've had people asking me if I
Speaker 3: would record whole guided meditations for them. I'm an ewer's voice,
Speaker 3: but I have I've stayed away from that for now.
Speaker 3: All right, now it's my turn to pick a a
Speaker 3: I've got a bug flying around here. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to fall into the perfectionist idea of that, like it
Speaker 3: should never have a bug in your house. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Bugs, they're everywhere.
Speaker 3: They're everywhere. Yes, I'm going to pick my big feeling,
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna go with comparison. Not actually because it's
Speaker 3: one of the ones that I struggle with as much,
Speaker 3: because I actually don't as much anymore in my life,
Speaker 3: but it's one I know a lot of people do
Speaker 3: struggle with. And I found a lot of the things
Speaker 3: you guys had to say about it in a lot
Speaker 3: of cases counterintuitive and counter to what people think. So
Speaker 3: let's talk a little bit about comparison. It can be
Speaker 3: one of the most painful big feelings out there. What
Speaker 3: are a couple of the myths around comparison.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think nowadays so much of the conversation centers
Speaker 1: around social media, and so I think it's easy then
Speaker 1: to assume if I get off of Instagram or Facebook,
Speaker 1: I will be free of comparison, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1: There's infinite examples of like you know, your neighbor, your colleague, whatever,
Speaker 1: You're still going to compare yourself to people. So it
Speaker 1: can be absolutely helpful to limit social media intake, but
Speaker 1: it's not sort of the magic wand with which you
Speaker 1: can eradicate all of these emotions. The second one that
Speaker 1: we talk about in the book is if you just
Speaker 1: get to a certain point, you'll feel great about yourself
Speaker 1: and you'll never compare yourself to anyone else. You know,
Speaker 1: it's very true that there's always going to be someone
Speaker 1: who is better than you, quote unquote on sub metric.
Speaker 1: If you have infinite money, you're suddenly going to turn
Speaker 1: to like looks or I don't know, access to some whatever,
Speaker 1: or maybe even like meaning or whatever it is. You're
Speaker 1: just you can never be the best at everything, And
Speaker 1: so I think it's really useful to catch yourself when
Speaker 1: you hear yourself saying like, I'll be happy when blank,
Speaker 1: because the truth is that's not guaranteed, and it's more
Speaker 1: important to figure out how to be happy with what
Speaker 1: you have. Those are two big ones, and then the
Speaker 1: one that I find the most interesting, which we stumbled
Speaker 1: across this research a couple of years ago and it's
Speaker 1: been really helpful to me, is that to overcome comparison
Speaker 1: or to envy, you should compare yourself less. So that's
Speaker 1: the myth is that just like, don't look at other people,
Speaker 1: and the truth is it's actually research shows makes you
Speaker 1: feel better to compare yourself more. So, what the researchers
Speaker 1: find is they asked people like, how good of a
Speaker 1: runner do you think you are? And people said they
Speaker 1: were not good runners because in their head they thought
Speaker 1: of the absolute best runner they knew. But when the
Speaker 1: researcher said, list out in your life ten people you
Speaker 1: know personally and how well they run, and now evaluate
Speaker 1: how good of a runner you are, people were like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good. Yeah, And so it's like, I think
Speaker 1: it's really easy if we think about, you know, how
Speaker 1: successful am I? We think about Mark Zuckerberg and we're like,
Speaker 1: I'm so unsuccessful. But then if you actually put into
Speaker 1: perspective like you're in the top five percent of all
Speaker 1: money brackets or whatever it might be, or you think
Speaker 1: about your peer group, you're usually not like far far
Speaker 1: far behind everyone else, And so I think actually having
Speaker 1: a wider comparison range can put things into better perspective.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think that ideas around what types of
Speaker 3: comparison can actually be helpful is really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So comparison is sort of inevitable. So then
Speaker 1: it starts you start to think about when I have
Speaker 1: when I notice myself comparing or I notice myself being
Speaker 1: envious of someone, what is helpful to me and what
Speaker 1: is harmful? And so what is helpful is to take
Speaker 1: a step back from that emotion and say, what is
Speaker 1: my envy telling me? So envy can reveal what you value.
Speaker 1: So it might be you really envia colleague who just
Speaker 1: got promoted, and what you learn is that maybe you
Speaker 1: really want to be promoted too, or you really want
Speaker 1: to do well. But then it's still useful to kind
Speaker 1: of drill down of like, yes, you want that, but
Speaker 1: do you want the day to day of that, because
Speaker 1: it might be that you're envious of a CEO because
Speaker 1: they're successful, and you've been sort of socialized to want
Speaker 1: to be the most successful. But do you actually want
Speaker 1: to do everything it takes to be a CEO? Is
Speaker 1: that the work life balance you want is that you
Speaker 1: want to make the same sacrifices. And so I think
Speaker 1: it's about really asking yourself this series of questions that
Speaker 1: can then highlight when the comparison isn't useful and it's flawed,
Speaker 1: and then it allows you to more easily step away
Speaker 1: from it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really love that idea of really thinking about
Speaker 3: I'm looking at this thing that I think I want,
Speaker 3: what does that really entail? What do I really need
Speaker 3: to do to get there? What are some questions that
Speaker 3: are helpful for getting into that. I think you guys
Speaker 3: call it the nitty gritty, right, getting into the nitty
Speaker 3: gritty of like I look at somebody and I'm comparing
Speaker 3: myself the CEO one is a is a great one,
Speaker 3: you know. I could think about it. I could look
Speaker 3: at somebody, a male model, Men's health cover model, and
Speaker 3: look at that and be like, well, I want to
Speaker 3: look like that. Well, when I think about the way
Speaker 3: that guy has to live. Yeah, I suddenly go, ah, well,
Speaker 3: you know, I think I'm doing okay, you know, like
Speaker 3: I'm not sure that I want that life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. So I think the first question is
Speaker 1: just like what do they have that makes me feel less?
Speaker 1: Then in that example, it's like they have whatever this
Speaker 1: body that is on the cover of a magazine, And
Speaker 1: then it's also useful to think about like do I
Speaker 1: really want that? And am I willing to, like you
Speaker 1: just said, like live the life that would lead to that,
Speaker 1: and often we say no. So one example I share
Speaker 1: in the book is I'm an introvert. In my worst
Speaker 1: days or when I have like back to back meetings,
Speaker 1: I'm just exhausted. And I have a friend who is
Speaker 1: very successful, was promoted and like took over a team
Speaker 1: of two hundred people, and I initially was really envious
Speaker 1: of her, and then I saw her Google calendar and
Speaker 1: was just like, nope, you know, I could not do
Speaker 1: that that it's not for me, and then it just
Speaker 1: really helped those feelings abate quite a bit. So I
Speaker 1: think the day to day question is really great, but
Speaker 1: then it's also useful to ask, like what void would
Speaker 1: having that fill because often we anchor too much on
Speaker 1: the specific thing versus like what actually is like the
Speaker 1: bigger need behind the feeling of envy. So it might
Speaker 1: be that it's not really that you want the body
Speaker 1: that's on the cover of magazine. You just wish you
Speaker 1: could feel more confident, and that then it's useful to
Speaker 1: think like, oh, there's actually many other ways that I
Speaker 1: can improve my confidence that don't have to do with me,
Speaker 1: like never touching anything with sugar in it.
Speaker 3: Again, right, I just go over to Chris's and look
Speaker 3: at his body and I suddenly feel way way better.
Speaker 3: It's not nice, and I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3: You've got a question in there too that I love,
Speaker 3: which is, you know, swap out the question why don't
Speaker 3: I have that with do I have enough?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, it's so easy for us to anchor our
Speaker 1: comparison benchmark on people who are better than us or
Speaker 1: not better, but like seem like they're doing better. That's
Speaker 1: a correct wording, and it is then really useful to
Speaker 1: think like, actually, I'm pretty happy with my life, and
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want for many things, and so
Speaker 1: right now I'm really just comparing myself to this maybe
Speaker 1: ten thousand extra dollars you know, every two years would
Speaker 1: be really nice. But fundamentally, like I live in a
Speaker 1: safe country with a stable government, and like it's just
Speaker 1: useful to remind yourself of that as well of like
Speaker 1: all that you have, as opposed to only focusing on
Speaker 1: everything you do not have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a moment. I've shared this a couple
Speaker 3: times on the podcast, but it was a really poignant
Speaker 3: moment for me. It was years ago. We were relatively
Speaker 3: early in doing the podcast, and we went out to
Speaker 3: la and we interviewed Lewis Howes, who has gone to
Speaker 3: be a huge podcaster and he's been on like Ellen
Speaker 3: and all this stuff, and so he had this really
Speaker 3: nice apartment in Hollywood, and I went out on his
Speaker 3: balcony and I was just looking down at the view
Speaker 3: and I was just thinking, like, man, Lewis's got it all,
Speaker 3: Like wow, this is incredible, and feeling, you know, a
Speaker 3: little bit of envy. And I looked up over my
Speaker 3: shoulder and what I saw were these just incredible houses
Speaker 3: on the hill. And I went, you know what, I
Speaker 3: bet Lewis looks over his shoulder at those houses and
Speaker 3: to your point that that never ends, right, that is
Speaker 3: an endless process, and so that's one of the best
Speaker 3: things for me. And why I like that question of
Speaker 3: you know, do I have enough? Is when I really
Speaker 3: start to recognize that. Again, I think what you're saying
Speaker 3: is that recognizing what we're envious can tell us a
Speaker 3: little bit about what we value, which is true, and
Speaker 3: sometimes it can be really helpful to realize this thing
Speaker 3: that I think if I had it, then I would
Speaker 3: just that I would be happy to realize, Like that's
Speaker 3: not true. Yeah, like that happiness doesn't work that way.
Speaker 3: It doesn't come from like, oh, if I just was
Speaker 3: in Bali this week like those people are, I would
Speaker 3: be happy. Like that's not true. I've been on vacation
Speaker 3: in beautiful places and been perfectly miserable. You know. It
Speaker 3: just helps me to recognize that sort of unwind some
Speaker 3: of those feelings.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Same, I've also been, you know, on the trip
Speaker 1: of a lifetime and just been not happy at all.
Speaker 1: It's in the book when you talk about something called
Speaker 1: the new level, new Devil phenomenon, which is actually from
Speaker 1: video games, but it's often yet it's like when I
Speaker 1: achieve X, I'll be happy. So it might be when
Speaker 1: I become a manager, I'll be happy. But when you
Speaker 1: become that, your peer group also changes somewhat, and so
Speaker 1: now everyone around you is also a manager because now
Speaker 1: you're going to manager meetings, and so it sort of
Speaker 1: normalizes this thing that seemed really unattainable at some point,
Speaker 1: and so you just start looking upwards again. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of like whatever level you get to, there will
Speaker 1: be a new devil of the new thing that would
Speaker 1: quote unquote make you happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've talked about it is sort of that, you know,
Speaker 3: if this thing, then I'll be happy. And one of
Speaker 3: the things that a getting older and be having some
Speaker 3: degree of success will do for you. It doesn't always
Speaker 3: do this, but it can confer a certain degree of
Speaker 3: wisdom because you have enough opportunities where you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I got what I thought I wanted, and look, it
Speaker 3: didn't do it right, Like, it didn't fix me, you know,
Speaker 3: it didn't, And you really start to go, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: you know, what are the skills that I can have
Speaker 3: that allow me to actually inhabit where I'm at right
Speaker 3: now more fully? Yeah, totally is a way through that. Well,
Speaker 3: we're nearing the end of time. What other things from
Speaker 3: the book really stood out to you or from work
Speaker 3: that you feel like would be really helpful for listeners.
Speaker 3: As a last couple of things, if anything comes to mind.
Speaker 3: If not, I can certainly drum up another question or two.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think something that I've found really valuable
Speaker 1: actually comes from our chapterund to Spare, and it's this
Speaker 1: concept of time chunking, which is, you know, the emotions
Speaker 1: we're talking about are really hard. There's often messaging that's like,
Speaker 1: you know this was meant to happen for a reason.
Speaker 1: You know this is a learning experience, and though you
Speaker 1: know like it's a sure maybe it's a learning experience.
Speaker 1: A year from now, maybe you can look back on
Speaker 1: it and craft a meaningful story. But I think most
Speaker 1: of us, something like grief or deep regret, we'd rather
Speaker 1: not experience it. And so in those moments when it's
Speaker 1: just like so so hard, I think it's so easy
Speaker 1: to be like this is how I'm going to feel forever.
Speaker 1: And what I've found really valuable is time chunking, which
Speaker 1: is then I need to get through the next hour,
Speaker 1: and it might be like I need to get through
Speaker 1: the next moment, and then I need to get through
Speaker 1: the moment after that I think it's fine to say.
Speaker 1: There are days when my goal for the day is
Speaker 1: to make it through the day, you know, and like,
Speaker 1: just what do I need to do today? Because maybe
Speaker 1: after sleep tomorrow will look a little different. Maybe I
Speaker 1: just need to like watch Netflix all day. Maybe I
Speaker 1: need to, you know, like lie on the couch and
Speaker 1: just be sad. And often when we talk about these
Speaker 1: big emotions, there's not enough that's focused on just like
Speaker 1: how do you just make it through when you're in
Speaker 1: the worst of it and in those moments when it's
Speaker 1: actually hard to believe there's a better and it's hard
Speaker 1: to believe that this will ever be a memory that
Speaker 1: is meaningful or has created meeting for you. And I
Speaker 1: think it really comes down to like one foot in
Speaker 1: front of the other, or like one breath at a
Speaker 1: time if you're lying down, I can't get up time.
Speaker 1: Chunking is something I've come back to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as a recovering alcoholic, right, I mean, AA I
Speaker 3: think is the place that sort of that Probaben invented,
Speaker 3: but certainly the place that made one day at a time,
Speaker 3: like the popular phrase that it became because it's so valuable,
Speaker 3: you know, when you're first getting sober. It's so overwhelming
Speaker 3: to contemplate, like I have to do this forever? Are
Speaker 3: you out of your mind? Like there's no possible way.
Speaker 3: So okay, just today, And like you said, sometimes it's
Speaker 3: like just this hour, just don't take a drink this
Speaker 3: hour and hope that something shifts. Yeah, that time chunking
Speaker 3: is such a valuable skill to be able to do.
Speaker 3: And I love what you said about recognizing, like, Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe this is a growth lesson and I'm going to
Speaker 3: grow from. This is one of those things that I
Speaker 3: always find it when somebody's in despair. I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm always trying to balance when I'm trying to help
Speaker 3: somebody who's in despair. Like ninety seven percent of me
Speaker 3: is going I feel you. I simply like I'm with you.
Speaker 3: Three percent of me wants you just to keep your
Speaker 3: eye just a little bit on the horizon that says
Speaker 3: like this is going somewhere for you. So not to
Speaker 3: minimum is what you're feeling. Like the vast majority of
Speaker 3: it is like it's okay not to be okay. And
Speaker 3: I know when I've been in despair, it's always helpful
Speaker 3: to have just a little bit of looking at the
Speaker 3: horizon where I realize, like this will change, I'm going
Speaker 3: to grow from this. What's the right balance of that?
Speaker 3: I think is always challenging, but I find it really
Speaker 3: helpful to have both those things in my awareness a
Speaker 3: little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think the often when someone comes to
Speaker 1: us or when we just notice that they're suffering or
Speaker 1: going through something, it feels good to like, Okay, have solutions.
Speaker 1: I'm going to help you figure of this. And that's
Speaker 1: not a bad thing necessarily, but I agree with you.
Speaker 1: It's like, first you just need to say, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I don't totally know what you're going through, but
Speaker 1: I acknowledge that, like this is really hard, and I'm
Speaker 1: here for you, and I you know, just like it's okay.
Speaker 1: Whatever you're feeling, it's okay, I'm here. And I think
Speaker 1: that is just so so crucial before you start doing this,
Speaker 1: like it'll get better or there's like a light at
Speaker 1: the end of the tunnel type thing. I think too
Speaker 1: often we just skip that part entirely.
Speaker 3: So listener and thinking about that and all the other
Speaker 3: great wisdom from today's episode. If you were going to
Speaker 3: isolate just one top insight that you're taking away, what
Speaker 3: would it be? Remember, little by little, a little becomes
Speaker 3: a lot. Change happens by us repeatedly taking positive action,
Speaker 3: And I want to give you a tip on that,
Speaker 3: and it's just start small. It's really important when we're
Speaker 3: trying to implement new habits to often start smaller than
Speaker 3: we think we need to, because what that does is
Speaker 3: it allows us to get victories. And victories are really
Speaker 3: important because we become more motivated when we're feeling good
Speaker 3: about ourselves, and we become less motivated when we're feeling
Speaker 3: bad about ourselves. So by starting small and making sure
Speaker 3: that you succeed, you build your motivation for further change
Speaker 3: down the road. If you'd like a step by step
Speaker 3: guide for how you can easily build new habits that
Speaker 3: feed your good Wolf, go to good Wolf dot me,
Speaker 3: slash change and join the free masterclass. There's a psychologist
Speaker 3: at the University of Michigan. His name's Ethan Cross, and
Speaker 3: he wrote a book called Chatter. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you're familiar with it, but he had some really interesting
Speaker 3: studies about helping people who are going through really difficult times.
Speaker 3: And what these studies seem to point to was only
Speaker 3: sympathizing with people didn't lead to good results, that you
Speaker 3: did need some degree of that solution oriented piece. And
Speaker 3: when I was reading it, it just sort of struck me that, like,
Speaker 3: of course, it's both right. We all know if you
Speaker 3: skip right past the empathy sympathy part of the game
Speaker 3: and you try and shepherd somebody right to solutions like
Speaker 3: that doesn't work. Nobody want nobody wants that. So it
Speaker 3: is a matter of like, Okay, how can I be
Speaker 3: with you in this first and how long that takes
Speaker 3: really depends on the person, right, Like I can't say like, well,
Speaker 3: all right, I gave you your fifteen minutes and now
Speaker 3: we're going to talk solutions, Like it really does depend
Speaker 3: on the thing. But I found the research interesting that
Speaker 3: it sort of said you kind of need both, and
Speaker 3: it made me think about the argument that I hear
Speaker 3: a lot between men and women, where you know, women
Speaker 3: are saying I just need you to hear me, and
Speaker 3: men just want to solve the problem. And when I
Speaker 3: was reading it, I went like, we're both right, Like
Speaker 3: there's value in both of those. How do we make
Speaker 3: sure that they're both there? But you can't get to
Speaker 3: the second one. I don't think effectively without the first one.
Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah. I agree with all of that, and that
Speaker 1: research is super interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3: It is such a pleasure to have you back on.
Speaker 3: I love the book. Like I said, I love the
Speaker 3: way it's organized, I love the title how to Be
Speaker 3: Okay When Things Aren't Okay, and I love the drawings.
Speaker 3: It's really well done. We'll have links in the show
Speaker 3: notes to where people can get access to you and
Speaker 3: the book and all of that. Is there any where
Speaker 3: you want to point people to.
Speaker 1: No shout outs. The book is available everywhere books are sold,
Speaker 1: so hopefully you can track it out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's called Big Feelings, how to Be
Speaker 3: Okay When Things Are Not Okay. Thanks again, Liz, it's
Speaker 3: always lovely to.
Speaker 1: See you you too, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
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