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Speaker 1: In two thousand and nine, Gretchen Ruben's breakout book, The

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Speaker 1: Happiness Project became a New York Times number one bestseller

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Speaker 1: and revolutionized the way people approach personal development. Over the

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Speaker 1: last decade, she has taken her approach to creating a happier, healthier,

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Speaker 1: more productive, and more creative life off those pages and

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Speaker 1: into the daily lives of her readers and listeners throughout

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Speaker 1: through her books, blog, podcast, online courses, and weekly newsletter.

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Speaker 1: Gretchen Ruben, Hi, thank you so much for being here

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be talking to you today.

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Speaker 1: And as you guys know, it's Friday, so Chip is

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Speaker 1: also here.

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Speaker 3: Good morning.

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Speaker 1: So Gretchen, I was prepping for this podcast and I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, is she like the guru of happiness?

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Speaker 2: I wish? I hope so that'd be great.

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Speaker 4: I know your sister, she calls you. What is she?

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Speaker 4: What is her name for you?

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Speaker 2: A happiness bully.

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Speaker 4: The happiness bully? Did you ever?

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Speaker 5: God, if there's a way for you to get happier

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Speaker 5: that I think I've identified, I can get pretty insistent.

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Speaker 5: So she's sometimes been the innocent bystander of that energy.

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Speaker 5: I would say she does, but you know it can.

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Speaker 5: It can be a lot. Sometimes you just assume not

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Speaker 5: have somebody, you know. One of the things I love

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Speaker 5: to clear clutter, and especially other people's clutter, because it's

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Speaker 5: so much easier when it's not yours. And so I'm

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Speaker 5: always like, when I go to her house.

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Speaker 2: She's very she's very messy.

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Speaker 5: She would be the first essay and so you know,

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Speaker 5: I remember one time we completely did her office and

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Speaker 5: then when it came for me to go to the airport,

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Speaker 5: I was like, you're glad to see me go, very sincerely,

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Speaker 5: but I'm so happy you came.

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Speaker 6: You need to meet my best friend from college, Sarah,

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Speaker 6: who's a listener, so she'll hear this. She loves to

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Speaker 6: straighten my place when she comes here, and it's like

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Speaker 6: such a gift. And I know it's not a bird her, yes,

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Speaker 6: so I don't complain.

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Speaker 5: It's so much easier when it's not your stuff because

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Speaker 5: you don't have any emotional ties to it, and so

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Speaker 5: it's very it's so straightforward, and it's so satisfying. When

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Speaker 5: it's your own stuff, there's so many more questions and

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Speaker 5: so much more indecision and strange emotions, like there's some

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Speaker 5: hideous sweater if it's your hideous swetter, I'm like, that's

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Speaker 5: a hideous sweater.

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Speaker 2: Put it in the donate pile.

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Speaker 5: But if I bought it but I never used it,

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Speaker 5: then I'm like, but maybe I should wear it, And

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Speaker 5: why did I spend so much money? And sure it

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Speaker 5: was on sale, but I made a mistake and maybe

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Speaker 5: I could wear it with those blue pants and YadA YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 5: YadA YadA.

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Speaker 2: But is your hideous sweater that is? That's easy, a

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Speaker 2: lot easier.

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Speaker 1: Like we're actually going to talk about how clutter affects

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Speaker 1: happiness in a little bit, but I want to know

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Speaker 1: why happiness. Did you think that your ever life, your

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Speaker 1: life would ever just become about teaching other people how

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Speaker 1: to find happiness.

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Speaker 5: It's about teaching myself how to find Okay, I would say,

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Speaker 5: researches me, search for me, potentially.

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Speaker 2: The benefactors, but it's all for me now.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I started my career in law, so I was actually

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Speaker 5: clerking for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor when I

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Speaker 5: decided that I wanted to be a writer. So then

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Speaker 5: I switched to being a writer and I was finishing

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Speaker 5: up a biography of JFK that I was writing when

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Speaker 5: I got I was stuck in a city bus in

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Speaker 5: the pouring rain, and I thought, what do I want

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Speaker 5: from life anyway?

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Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I want to be happy.

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Speaker 5: But I realized I didn't spend any time thinking about

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Speaker 5: whether I was happier.

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Speaker 2: What I thought happiness was is it.

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Speaker 5: Possible to make yourself happier? And I thought, you know,

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Speaker 5: I should have a happiness project, and I ran out

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Speaker 5: to the library. I got a giant stack of books

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Speaker 5: the next day, which happens to me all the time.

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Speaker 5: I'll get very preoccupied with the subject and I'll do

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Speaker 5: a ton of research and writing on it. But happiness

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Speaker 5: just got bigger and bigger. And first it was just

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Speaker 5: for me, my own happiness project, and then I finally

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Speaker 5: I was like, this is so fascinating. There's so many

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Speaker 5: things I want to learn and try and explore. Maybe

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Speaker 5: this should be my next book. So I wrote that book.

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Speaker 5: And then I'm like, but this subject is so fascinating,

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Speaker 5: it's leading me in all these different directions. So then

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Speaker 5: I wrote a book about habits, because if you're talking

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Speaker 5: about a happy life, habits play a huge role. A

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Speaker 5: lot of times, you know what would make you happier,

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Speaker 5: you just don't do it. That gives you to a

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Speaker 5: habit question. I wrote a book about it, How to

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Speaker 5: be Happier at Home, because it's hard to be happy

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Speaker 5: if you're not happy at home.

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book.

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Speaker 5: My most recent book is Life in Five Senses, because

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Speaker 5: I realized that tapping into the five senses is such

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Speaker 5: a such an engine of happiness for us and connection

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Speaker 5: and memories and energy and calm and creativity everything. It's

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Speaker 5: like the Swiss Army knife tools your five senses, and

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Speaker 5: so I just keep going sort of deeper and deeper

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Speaker 5: into this idea of happiness in human nature. I did

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Speaker 5: not expect that when I went to the library that

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Speaker 5: first day, but that's how it turned out.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's an ongoing process.

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Speaker 6: Yes, so it's like, well, for you to achieve your

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Speaker 6: happiness or retain it, I guess it's like you got

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Speaker 6: to keep doing that research.

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Speaker 5: Yes, And there's always there's always new. It's funny because

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Speaker 5: I'll feel like, wow, if I sort of explored everything

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Speaker 5: I'm going to and then a whole huge section of

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Speaker 5: the library lights up. Like when I had my realization

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Speaker 5: about the five senses, I was like and then and

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Speaker 5: then looking back at my earlier books, I saw that

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Speaker 5: like I was groping toward it, Like I had a

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Speaker 5: whole thing about smell and my book Happier at Home

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Speaker 5: and in my book Better than Before, that's about habit changed.

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Speaker 5: There were so many habits that were related to kind

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Speaker 5: of managing sensory surroundings and sensory overload, but I didn't

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Speaker 5: I didn't identify it as a category. And once I

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Speaker 5: was like, oh, this is the category, then all the

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Speaker 5: all these new things came into view. It's very exciting

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Speaker 5: when that happens.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I love that you say an atmosphere of growth is

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Speaker 1: the key to a happier life, because when we were

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Speaker 1: first discussing having you on even our topic this month

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Speaker 1: is housekeeping, So obviously we've talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the physical aspects of housekeeping and what that looks like,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of it is just this internal deep

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Speaker 1: dive and a lot of times we get just going

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Speaker 1: in our life and we don't really pay attention to

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Speaker 1: those things. So why is an atmosphere of growth play

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Speaker 1: of heart in our happiness?

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Speaker 4: Do you think?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 5: It's just this this aspect of human nature where We

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Speaker 5: are happier when we're growing. And maybe that's because we're

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Speaker 5: improving something, maybe we're fixing something, maybe we're teaching something,

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Speaker 5: maybe we're learning something, maybe we're helping something to move forward.

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Speaker 5: But in some way, having that atmosphere of growth makes

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Speaker 5: us happier. And the interesting thing about the atmosphere of

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Speaker 5: growth is it's something that we can control. So let's

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Speaker 5: say everything in your life is kind of is going wrong.

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Speaker 5: You know, we all have had periods where you're like,

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Speaker 5: every there's something bad in every area of my life.

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Speaker 2: But one thing you can.

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Speaker 5: Do is with the atmosphere of growth, is you can say, okay,

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Speaker 5: but within my control, what is something that I can

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Speaker 5: where I can grow? Can I learn a new skill?

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Speaker 5: Can I get a certification? Can I clean out my pantry?

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Speaker 5: Can I, you know, clean out my clothes closet? Sometimes

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Speaker 5: you know, over and over, I'm sure you've experienced this too,

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Speaker 5: Like even a slight growth gives us this disproportionate sense

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Speaker 5: of energy and good cheer. Cleaning out your email inbox,

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Speaker 5: going through your digital photos, like finally making that photo

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Speaker 5: album for your parents' anniversary party that you promised them

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Speaker 5: that you would do.

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Speaker 2: You just get that done, and it just it just.

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Speaker 5: It is a source of just a good feeling, and

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Speaker 5: it's one that we can control.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that kind of leads me to the next

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Speaker 1: question I wanted to ask, because I want to know

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Speaker 1: exactly what is happiness?

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Speaker 4: Because what you just described are these.

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Speaker 1: Tiny little things that we can do for growth that

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Speaker 1: could make us happy. But I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: times when I associate happiness, like a true level of

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Speaker 1: happiness is when you look at someone who just might

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Speaker 1: have this, you know, all the stuff going on or

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Speaker 1: all the success or they've really hit this point in

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Speaker 1: their life where you're like, well, surely they're happy, but

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Speaker 1: that's part of your story, isn't it. Like you looked

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Speaker 1: at your life, you had the husband, the kids, the job,

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Speaker 1: and you were like happy, But could I be happier?

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Speaker 3: Exactly?

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Speaker 4: So what is happiness?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 5: So I started my career in law, as I said,

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Speaker 5: and I spent an entire sinister arguing about the definition

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Speaker 5: of contracts, and happiness is an even more elusive concept.

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Speaker 5: There are like fifteen academic definitions of happiness, and I

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Speaker 5: decided I wasn't going to worry about it.

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Speaker 2: And because people want to say, is it happiness? It's

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Speaker 2: a joy? Is it satisfaction? Is it contentment? Is it peace?

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Speaker 2: Is it bliss? And I'm like, and the more I

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Speaker 2: thought about it.

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Speaker 5: It just it just it was not making me happy

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Speaker 5: and so and you know, if you're a scientists doing

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Speaker 5: scientific research, you have to like very precisely define your terms.

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Speaker 5: But I think for the average person it could become

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Speaker 5: very confusing and in a way, very kind of sterile

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Speaker 5: exercise to worry about too much what it is. I

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Speaker 5: think it's more helpful to think about how can I

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Speaker 5: be happier? Whatever it is my conception and your conception

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Speaker 5: of it could be different from mine. Whatever our conception is. Individually,

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Speaker 5: can I be happier this today, next week, next month,

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Speaker 5: next year? Are there things that I can do, concrete,

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Speaker 5: manageable things that I can do in my everyday life

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Speaker 5: that will make me happier? And that is usually very

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Speaker 5: clear to people like that. They're like that I get.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that.

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Speaker 5: The research shows is about fifty percent of happiness, however

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Speaker 5: you might define it, is genetically determined. So some people

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Speaker 5: are born tiggers, some people are born emers. That's hardwired. Then,

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Speaker 5: like fifteen to twenty percent is something called life circumstances.

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Speaker 5: So this is age, income, health, marital status, work, and

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Speaker 5: then the rest is very much influenced by our conscious

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Speaker 5: thoughts and actions. And so when I talk about can

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Speaker 5: we be happier, that's what I'm really focused on, is like,

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Speaker 5: don't worry about your dopamine levels, you know, don't worry

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Speaker 5: about like is bliss different from joy, different from satisfaction?

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Speaker 5: But just say, like, well, with your conscious thoughts and actions,

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Speaker 5: what are some things you could think of to be happier?

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Speaker 5: Like in the housekeeping area, what would I do?

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Speaker 2: What could I do that?

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Speaker 5: I that I'm pretty confident because usually we have a

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Speaker 5: pretty good sense that something is likely to make us happier.

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Speaker 5: To me, that's just that's what I like to think

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Speaker 5: about more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what I was gonna say, what is the importance

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Speaker 1: of asking yourself if you're HAPPI or unhappy?

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Speaker 2: Hugely important?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, why is that?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think for a lot of people it's just

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Speaker 2: easy never even to think about it.

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Speaker 5: I mean I never thought about it until that day.

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Speaker 5: So if you don't think about it, you know, you're

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Speaker 5: unlikely to hit a target. If you don't aim at it,

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Speaker 5: and if what I find is that the minute somebody

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Speaker 5: says like, well what could I do to be happier,

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Speaker 5: they think of many, many things like and you know,

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Speaker 5: but it's very easy and kind of the tumult of

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Speaker 5: everyday life to not think about like, wow, our mornings

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Speaker 5: are really chaotic, Like I really start out.

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Speaker 2: The day stressed.

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Speaker 5: Everybody's sniping at each other, like what are some things

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Speaker 5: that I could do to make the morning calmer?

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Speaker 2: And then once you say to.

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Speaker 5: Yourself, I would be happier if I had a calmer,

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Speaker 5: more peaceful, more harmonius morning than it's like, okay, well

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Speaker 5: are there things that you could do with your conscious

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Speaker 5: thoughts and actions? And you're like, well, if I got

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Speaker 5: up twenty minutes earlier, I could get myself organized and

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Speaker 5: have a cup of coffee before the rest of my

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Speaker 5: family woke up, and that would make me calmer. Or

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Speaker 5: if I chose my outfit the night before, then I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't be in this panic of indecision and annoyance that morning.

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Speaker 2: Or if I got.

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Speaker 5: Everything organ I'm a person who leaves stuff like all

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Speaker 5: over the house. If I got everything ready by the

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Speaker 5: front door, so I could just pick up my sunglasses,

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Speaker 5: my keys, my charger, you know, my badge, all that

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Speaker 5: stuff on the way out.

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Speaker 2: I could do it.

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Speaker 5: Then, you know, I could put my I could put

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Speaker 5: my medication by the coffee pot, so I can't have

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Speaker 5: my first cup of coffee until I take my medication.

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Speaker 5: And I never missed my first cup of coffee. So

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Speaker 5: now I'm going to do much better managing my heart,

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Speaker 5: you know, my blood pressure, because I'm going to consistently

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Speaker 5: take my medication. And so now this nagging feeling that

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Speaker 5: I have that I'm not taking care of my health

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Speaker 5: consistently is going to go away. So there's a lot

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Speaker 5: of things. Once you stop to say, well, are there

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Speaker 5: ways that I could be happier? Are what are someplaces

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Speaker 5: in my life where there's low hanging fruit? And for

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Speaker 5: most of us, there's a lot of low hanging fruit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, would you say that the number one thing that

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Speaker 1: gets in the way of our happiness is busyness and awareness?

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Speaker 1: I'm picking up a couple of different things from what

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Speaker 1: you just said. What would you say the number one

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Speaker 1: thing that gets in the way of our happiness is?

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Speaker 5: Oh? What a great question, don't I think it's probably

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Speaker 5: different for different people, and maybe in different stages of

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Speaker 5: their lives. I mean, for people who are kind of

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Speaker 5: in the rush hour of life, it's probably the feeling

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Speaker 5: like I don't have enough time for all the things

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Speaker 5: that are important to me. For some people, it might

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Speaker 5: be loneliness, you know, if you had to pick thus

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Speaker 5: secret to happiness, ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that

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Speaker 5: it's relationships, and so anything that deepens or broadens our

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Speaker 5: relationships is likely to make us happier. And when people

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Speaker 5: are in periods in their lives where they feel like

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Speaker 5: they don't have enough friends, or they're not connecting with

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Speaker 5: their friends, or maybe they don't have a romantic partner

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Speaker 5: and they really want one.

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Speaker 2: For some people, it's even like not having a dog.

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Speaker 5: Like some people they just need like animal companionship in

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Speaker 5: their life and if they don't have it, you know,

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Speaker 5: if they're like in an apartment building that doesn't take

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Speaker 5: dogs and they're like, I can't.

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Speaker 2: I have to have a dog?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I feel bereft. So I think for

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Speaker 5: different people it might be it might be very different.

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Speaker 3: What do you think I was going to ask?

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Speaker 6: Like, because personally, for me, sometimes when I start to

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Speaker 6: think about, like what I can do to make myself happier.

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Speaker 6: I face a fear of admitting that I'm not happy

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Speaker 6: because I'm generally like a really happy person that I

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Speaker 6: get that feedback from people like how are you always

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Speaker 6: so happy?

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Speaker 3: And it's so I don't want to ever admit that

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Speaker 3: I'm not happy.

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Speaker 6: Do you, like in your research, is there anything that

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Speaker 6: has spoken to that, like the fear of admitting unhappiness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think that goes to identity, where you've been tied

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Speaker 5: to this identity of a happy person. So it almost

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Speaker 5: feels like you're contradictory, contradicting like a deep important identity,

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Speaker 5: or you're violating other people's identity which they may also

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Speaker 5: be very invested in. My father is a very very

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Speaker 5: happy person, and I have to say that I really

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Speaker 5: really took it for granted. And it was only after

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Speaker 5: I had done a lot of research into happiness that

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Speaker 5: I realized like how skillful that is and how demanding

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Speaker 5: that is to be the person that's happy, and how

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Speaker 5: that kind of person often becomes a buffer for other

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Speaker 5: people's bad feelings. They become a source of energy that

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Speaker 5: others draw on and that others may count on and

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Speaker 5: that it is a very very demanding position, and maybe

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Speaker 5: it might be a an unwelcome identity in some ways,

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Speaker 5: where you're like, if I have to be the happy one,

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Speaker 5: that's like lifting everyone's spirits.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of work for me.

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Speaker 5: So again I think that you know, stepping back and

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Speaker 5: just saying, you know, could I be happier? And what

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Speaker 5: might be in the way, isn't saying you can still

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Speaker 5: be a very happy I remember talking to a friend

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Speaker 5: who really suffers from depression, and she said, I'm a

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Speaker 5: very happy person who suffers from depression. And she said,

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Speaker 5: some people don't understand how that's possible. And I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I exactly understand how that's possible. So and also, one

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Speaker 5: of the things that research shows about happiness and unhappiness

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Speaker 5: is it's not a seesaw, like you can be experiencing

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Speaker 5: a lot of things that the same time and so

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Speaker 5: and so that makes perfect sense to me, But it

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Speaker 5: might be that you would want to think through that

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Speaker 5: a little bit for yourself. And maybe if other people

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Speaker 5: are sort of like like, what's.

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Speaker 2: Up with you?

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Speaker 5: Like you're the happy guy, like being like, well, you

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Speaker 5: know what, I can I can be the happy guy.

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Speaker 5: But even for the happy guy, you know, I'm struggling

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Speaker 5: with something, or I'm frustrated by something, or I'm thinking

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Speaker 5: through something, so that you don't get boxed into that identity, right.

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Speaker 1: I also like that a lot of your points about

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Speaker 1: the initial question to ask are not to say like

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Speaker 1: am I happy or unhappy?

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Speaker 4: It's am I happy? But could I be happier?

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Speaker 1: So you're never really like attaching the word unhappy to

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Speaker 1: that well.

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Speaker 2: And I also think it's it's like very hard to know.

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Speaker 5: Like when I started the Happiness Project, I have a friend,

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Speaker 5: you know, like works for a big tech company, super

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Speaker 5: scientific guy, and he's like, Okay, what you should do

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Speaker 5: is you should have your husband rate you on a

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Speaker 5: one to ten scale every morning and every night, and

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Speaker 5: then you'll see if you make progress. And I was like,

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Speaker 5: first of all, have you met my husband? No way,

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Speaker 5: that would not be that marriage. And then I'm like,

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Speaker 5: I don't even know, Like I get very anxious when

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Speaker 5: people say, like, what's your happiness on a one to

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Speaker 5: ten skill?

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I have no idea what that means.

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Speaker 5: And if you're very unhappy, you know, like of course

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Speaker 5: you do. And if you're very happy, you know, But

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Speaker 5: usually I think for most of us we live in

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Speaker 5: a place where it's like it's kind of hard to tell.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't. I find that very confusing

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Speaker 5: to think about. Whereas if I think about is this

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Speaker 5: going to make me happier or less happy? That feels clear.

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Speaker 5: So I like thinking about it that way. It just

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Speaker 5: feels just feels more more graspable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In the book The Happiness Project, you come up with

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Speaker 1: these twelve commandments for your happiness project, and they're all

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Speaker 1: I like them because it's similar to what you've already said,

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Speaker 1: where sometimes the next right step or the small action

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Speaker 1: is the thing that's going to change your happiness level.

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Speaker 1: So you say, be Gretchen, let it go. Act the

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Speaker 1: way I want to feel. Do it now, be polite

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Speaker 1: and be fair, enjoy the process, spend out, identify the problem,

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Speaker 1: lighten up, do what ought to be done. No calculation,

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Speaker 1: There is only love. So as I was reading this list,

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Speaker 1: initially I thought, how much of our happiness is actually

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Speaker 1: in our own mind and a.

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Speaker 4: Controllable by just the shift of a narrative.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I.

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Speaker 5: Said, fifty percent is genetic t Yeah, twenty percent is

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Speaker 5: life circumstances. So there's some things that we very much

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Speaker 5: can control, and reframing is a great one, and you know,

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Speaker 5: working on just our daily habits, like, that's what we

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Speaker 5: can do. But I don't think. I think when people say, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: you know, you just have to make up your mind

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Speaker 5: to be happy, I'm like, that's not very realistic.

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Speaker 2: I don't think.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it probably could be done, but it's

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Speaker 5: not the kind of thing that most people could could do.

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Speaker 5: And then, you know, also, one of the things that's

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Speaker 5: confusing to people is sometimes I think that because I'm

405
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Speaker 5: always talking about happiness, that my idea is that everybody

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Speaker 5: should be ten on the one to ten scale twenty

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Speaker 5: four to seven, and that is what we're all aiming for,

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Speaker 5: is to be perfectly happy at all times. That is

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Speaker 5: not realistic, and it wouldn't even be a good life, because,

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Speaker 5: of course, there are times when you want to feel sorrow,

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Speaker 5: and there are times when you feel want to feel

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Speaker 5: righteous anger, and there are times when you want to

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Speaker 5: feel guilt and regret and remorse. These are important emotions

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Speaker 5: for us to feel. And so a good life isn't

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Speaker 5: a life that's only positive emotions. It's a life where

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Speaker 5: we're as happy as we can be given our circumstances

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Speaker 5: and our surroundings, because why not be as happy as

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Speaker 5: you can be.

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Speaker 2: But if you're like, Okay, I work for a boss.

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Speaker 5: Who's like really cruel and really mean to me, and like,

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Speaker 5: you know, is like making me feel terrible and I've

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Speaker 5: got a target on my back, it's like, Okay. The

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Speaker 5: point is not to make you feel like, oh, this

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Speaker 5: is great. It's to say, Okay, let's think about what.

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Speaker 5: Let's identify the problem, what is the problem, what you

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Speaker 5: know to understand it, and to use those negative emotions constructively,

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Speaker 5: because to spur action when they should spur action. And

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Speaker 5: then if you're just like Okay, I'm ruminating in the

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Speaker 5: middle of the night, going over and over and over

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Speaker 5: the same thing, and that's what's straining me and bringing

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Speaker 5: me down, it's like, okay, well that's not constructive.

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Speaker 2: So what is a way to turn that to?

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Speaker 5: You know, this is something to worry it can it

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Speaker 5: can be constructive for you or stop being a negative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean ship and I talk about this all

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Speaker 1: the time too. If you don't feel the bad feelings,

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Speaker 1: how would you know what the good ones actually feel?

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Speaker 5: Like either, well, this is a really interesting question. I

439
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Speaker 5: think we needed to ask like the scientific.

440
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: Folk about this.

441
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 5: Okay, there's kind of a belief that like, if you

442
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,119
Speaker 5: don't feel high highs, if you don't feel low lows,

443
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 5: you won't feel high highs. Yeah, I'm sure that I

444
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 5: agree with that. Chip if you're a guy who you

445
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 5: sounds like you score high on the genetic lottery. I mean,

446
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,120
Speaker 5: people I don't think that they do feel low loads.

447
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 5: I mean I feel that they would feel low low

448
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 5: if if if something bad happened, like they would feel low.

449
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like.

450
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 5: I don't feel like it's like either you have a

451
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 5: wide range or you have a narrow range. I think

452
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 5: some people just bounce up and stay up. Yeah, so

453
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 5: I've wondered about that myself, Like is that true, because

454
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 5: sometimes people almost justify like, oh, I have all these terrible,

455
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,879
Speaker 5: terrible feelings, but if I didn't have these terrible feelings

456
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 5: and have wonderful feelings, and I'm.

457
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know that. I I don't know that.

458
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 2: I think that's so.

459
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the end verse too.

460
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 6: If if you're a person that is just prone to depression,

461
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 6: you're gonna the depression is going to be more prevalent

462
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 6: in your life probably than happiness. So it's just not

463
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,680
Speaker 6: an it's not the see Saul right. Yeah, I mean,

464
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 6: I think it's it's more about appreciating the highs. Yes,

465
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 6: you don't if you don't allow yourself to be sad

466
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 6: in the moments where sadness is the most natural feeling.

467
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 6: Because I am one of those people that tends to

468
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 6: like be like, well, you know, she's in a better place,

469
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,239
Speaker 6: you know, And it's like, no, like be sad your

470
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 6: grandmother died, like let's all cry together or whatever.

471
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 3: The situation is.

472
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 6: Right, because it's like you don't want to In the

473
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 6: same way you don't want to steal someone's joy, you

474
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 6: don't want to steal someone's sadness either.

475
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 1: True.

476
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, true, because they need to grieve.

477
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: I mean.

478
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 5: One of the most important things that I've actually read

479
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 5: it in a parenting book. So it's a book aimed

480
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 5: at the parents of preschoolers. The greatest parenting book of

481
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 5: all time called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen

482
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 5: and Listen So Kids Will Talk. Such a great book.

483
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 5: But one of the things that they say is acknowledge

484
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 5: the reality of other people's feelings. So if a kid

485
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 5: says I'm hungry, you don't say you're not hungry, you

486
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 5: just date. And if they say I don't like going

487
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,880
Speaker 5: to Grandma's house, you don't say, of course you love going,

488
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 5: of course you love grandma. Of course you love going

489
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 5: to grandma's house. Or I'm scared of clowns, you don't

490
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 5: say you're not scared of clowns. Clowns are fun because

491
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 5: it's like, why would you deny the reality of their pace.

492
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 5: And the fact is this works just as well for adults,

493
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 5: is that you need to acknowledge the reality of other

494
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,959
Speaker 5: people's feelings. And if it's like, wow, I'm you know,

495
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 5: I'm really I'm really angry at you because like I

496
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 5: waited for the cable guy all day and you forgot

497
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 5: to tell me that the appointment was canceled or whatever.

498
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 5: It's like, instead of being like, well, it's no big deal,

499
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 5: you were going to be home anyway, is to be like, wow,

500
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 5: that must have been really frustrated, because it just just

501
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,360
Speaker 5: acknowledging the reality of what people feel and if they're

502
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 5: feeling deep sorrow, to allow them to feel deep sorrow

503
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 5: instead of like trying to cheer them up out of it. Yeah,

504
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 5: but I allow I'm very tempting. It's very tempting to

505
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,640
Speaker 5: say to people, Oh no, there's a way to look

506
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 5: at this, so it's all good.

507
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 6: Well, I think it's I know from my personal experience,

508
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 6: when I do it, it's so that I'm not uncomfortable.

509
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 3: And this isn't it's a self preservation thing. Yeah.

510
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 5: Well, in my book, so my most recent book is

511
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 5: called Life in Five Senses, and so it goes through

512
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 5: the senses and in the the the chapter on the

513
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 5: sense of hearing, I did a manifesto for listening because

514
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 5: I'm not a very good listener, and so it was

515
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 5: all the things I wanted to remind myself and that

516
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,879
Speaker 5: what you say is exactly it's on my list because

517
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 5: one of them is allow like allow painful silences to fall,

518
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 5: don't interrupt when somebody is talking about something difficult. Because

519
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 5: what I realized and I just I you can see

520
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 5: how I might be inclined to do it from what

521
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 5: I just said a minute ago. Is somebody was hanging

522
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 5: about something painful, I would immediately give a book book recommendation.

523
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 5: Oh you're getting a divorced here's the best book. Everybody

524
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 5: says this is the mostful book. You're having trouble with

525
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 5: your child, read this book. This is a book about

526
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 5: child friendships. You'll find it so helpful instead of it's

527
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 5: like email them that later, but right now the person

528
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 5: is trying to express a painful emotion, and I was

529
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 5: trying to get them onto like more safe territory instead

530
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 5: of allowing them to say.

531
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: I'm really worried about my son.

532
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 5: He's having all these problems in school, he's having problems

533
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 5: with the friends, and like allow that to like just

534
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 5: sit with that instead of trying to constantly move away.

535
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: So I think I think it's, like.

536
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 5: A lot of things, it's easier said than done to

537
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 5: do the kind of the thing that's going to really

538
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 5: help you to connect with other people.

539
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: Why do you think that's so difficult for us? Like

540
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: as a society, are we programmed to just think we

541
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: have to feel happy all of the time. I've just

542
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about like empathy, the empathy piece

543
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: in our society right now, and I'm wondering what the

544
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: tie is there, Like if we can't understand how someone

545
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: else is feeling, are we just so uncomfortable with them?

546
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: Feeling bad, and we're like, we've got to get out

547
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,719
Speaker 1: of this, We've got to be happy.

548
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: An interesting question.

549
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 5: It's funny because I think two things are happening at once,

550
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 5: because I think, on the one hand, I don't think

551
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 5: people think about their happiness nearly enough. They don't really

552
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 5: think about it. They don't really step back and say like,

553
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 5: well the problem, Why why am I not happy?

554
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: Like what are the Like?

555
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 5: Maybe you're not happy because you're just exhausted all the

556
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 5: time because you stay up till two o'clock every morning

557
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 5: binge watching back episodes of Grey's Anatomy. You know, if

558
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: you just got enough sleep, you might feel a lot better,

559
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 5: and so, like, you know, to make it very obvious.

560
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 5: So I think in the one hand, they don't think

561
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 5: about it enough. But then on the other hand, I

562
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 5: do think that for some people it's like, well I

563
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 5: need to and this comes up in a lot of

564
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 5: different ways, the kind of way you mentioned it, But

565
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 5: then also kind of like, well, I can't be uncomfortable,

566
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 5: and so I need to cut ties with anybody who

567
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 5: is difficult, Okay, I can't be exposed to something that's

568
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 5: going to make me sad, And yeah, so I think

569
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 5: there's a lot going on at once. I think the

570
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 5: world feels very chaotic right now, and so maybe some

571
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 5: people feel like they need to shut down certain things

572
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 5: in order to protect themselves. And I think if that's

573
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 5: the case for you, you need to think about, Okay, well,

574
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 5: how do I how do I manage my environment, even

575
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 5: my sensory environment, so that I feel like I can

576
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 5: maintain myself in a healthy way and yet also be

577
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 5: like civically engaged and engaged with people who may be

578
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 5: difficult or going through problems, but that I still want

579
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 5: to have in my life.

580
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: It's complicated, it is.

581
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: We talk about just the absorbing all the news that's

582
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: happening all the time now and how that actually affects

583
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: both of our happiness. Like we have to put boundaries

584
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: up about what articles we're reading because it's everywhere. Right

585
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: we open social media, it's you're getting flooded with that.

586
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: I open my email inbox, There's a million things from

587
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: New York Times to anything else.

588
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 4: You turn tybe all of that.

589
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 5: Here're some just practical things for people to think about.

590
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 5: One is turn offf notifications, like if something happens like

591
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 5: you'll find out you don't need to be notified like

592
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 5: same day, so turn off your notifications. I'm a big

593
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 5: fan of reading physical news, Like I still get free

594
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 5: newspapers delivered to my door every day, and like you

595
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 5: could have objections to that, like from environmental reasons, but

596
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 5: I do think it's much better to read the news

597
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 5: in a physical form because then there's no comments and

598
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 5: there's no endless scroll. It's like you read the newspaper

599
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 5: and then it's done, so it's not something that can

600
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 5: take up three or four hours. You might choose one

601
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 5: news source and not have many of them, like you

602
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 5: know sometimes people have they have this one and this

603
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 5: one and this one and this one. They just kind

604
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 5: of go through them and see what's there. It's like

605
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 5: if that, if you feel like that, that is draining you,

606
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 5: because we all, I believe, have a duty to be

607
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 5: civically engaged and knowledgeable about what's happening in the world.

608
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 5: But a lot of times, like you get that stuff

609
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 5: pretty quick, and you're getting drawn into the things that

610
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 5: are kind of like potato chip news, Like the more

611
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 5: you have, the more you want. It draws you in,

612
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 5: it gets you all fired up. Another thing, like you know,

613
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 5: when you watch like news on TV or something like that.

614
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 5: It has music, it's cut, cut, it's made to be emotional,

615
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 5: it's made to like really like get you very very engaged,

616
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 5: and that can be very draining. So as much as

617
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 5: you can bring down that level so that you're really

618
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 5: getting the facts and the information that you need from

619
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 5: a source that you believe to be credible, but not

620
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 5: with a lot of stuff around it. If you so,

621
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 5: I would say, like pick a few sources, not a

622
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 5: lot of sources. Don't get it off social media. Go

623
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 5: to a news site and get it from a credible

624
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 5: news site. If you feel very compelled by your phone

625
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 5: and you kind of can't look away from your phone,

626
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 5: try turning your phone to grayscale so that it's in black, white,

627
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 5: and gray instead of color, and you will find that

628
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 5: you are very much less tempted to use your phone.

629
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 5: It's much more cumbersome and less fun to use a

630
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 5: black and white phone. And if you have a kid

631
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 5: who's always wanted to use one of your devices, turn

632
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 5: your device to black, white and gray and you will

633
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 5: see that and just tell me your child that it broke,

634
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 5: to say it's broken, we can't get it fixed U,

635
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 5: and they will be less compelled by it as well.

636
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 5: And so sometimes sometimes we're like, I need to change

637
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 5: my mindset. It's like, it's really hard to change your mindset.

638
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 5: But if you delete that app off your phone, I

639
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 5: assure you you will go to it far less. You

640
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 5: can go to it on desktop if you want, You

641
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,479
Speaker 5: can download it every time you need it. But if

642
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 5: you don't, if it's not just a click away.

643
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: Are you going to go to it? Probably not.

644
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about the literal housekeeping

645
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: of how this contributes to our happiness. Because in outer order,

646
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: in or calm, you talk about clutter really contributing to unhappiness.

647
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 5: Why okay, well, I have to make an important distinction

648
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 5: because some people are clutter blind. Like this is my sister,

649
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 5: she's the co host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin

650
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 5: podcast with me, she's clutterblind. And for people are clutter blind,

651
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 5: and you probably know who they are, you know, if

652
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 5: you are.

653
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: Like, they don't see it.

654
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 5: The cabinet doors are open, the clothes are all over

655
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 5: the place, and they just don't care. Okay, oh okay, Well,

656
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 5: so in these people they don't care, and so like

657
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 5: on balance, it's nice for them when things are tidier,

658
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 5: but it doesn't really bother them the way it would

659
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 5: bother people who are not clutter blind. And I'm one

660
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 5: of those people. And so for one thing is if

661
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 5: you don't care, don't do it. There's no magic to it.

662
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: If you don't like to make.

663
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 5: Your bed, don't make your bed. For a lot of

664
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 5: people make you their bed. Is like it's like the

665
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 5: number one minor. Have a change that boosts their happiness.

666
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 5: I don't know why, but people tell me that over

667
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 5: and over, and make your bed. But if you feel

668
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: like I don't care if I make my bed, or

669
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 5: if you feel like it's a big ways to make

670
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 5: my bed, I just unmake my bed every night, Or

671
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 5: if you feel like.

672
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: I grew up I had to make my bed and

673
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: now I'm a.

674
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 5: Grown up and I'm not going to write it's like, right,

675
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 5: don't There's no magic to it. It's just that for

676
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 5: many people it does contribute to their happiness. If it does,

677
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 5: then do it. If it doesn't, don't worry about it.

678
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 5: Now you can get into conflict because a lot of

679
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 5: times people who are clutterblind are sharing space with people

680
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 5: who care, and so then you're like, then it's not

681
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 5: just you. But I think what's different is instead of

682
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 5: saying I'm right, you're wrong or the right thing to

683
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 5: do is to make your bed every day, you're wrong

684
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 5: for not making your better every day, or not wanting

685
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 5: to make your better every day, or forgetting to make

686
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 5: your bet every day because you just don't care. It's

687
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 5: that this is my preference and you have a different

688
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 5: So how do we create an environment where we both

689
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 5: feel comfortable? Because if I walk in here and I

690
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 5: feel like I can't sit down and relax unless I

691
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 5: spend an hour tiding up because you've made such a

692
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 5: mess in here, that's not good for me. On the

693
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: other hand, if you feel like I have an unrealistically

694
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 5: high standard of how organized everything's going to be, and

695
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 5: so you feel like why am I living?

696
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: Why am I being.

697
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 5: Trapped in all these bureaucratic red tape rules in my

698
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 5: own house, it's like, okay, let's talk about that, and like,

699
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 5: how do we come up with rules that we feel

700
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 5: like we can both live with. But in my observation,

701
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 5: a lot of times people want to say, well, I'm

702
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: right and you're wrong, and so I have to convince

703
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 5: you which, by the way, you're not going to write

704
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 5: because it's a matter of preference. So if you say, like,

705
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 5: why really annoys me that you never hang up your coat,

706
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 5: It's like, what if we used hooks? Do you think

707
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 5: you could put Could you put your coat on a

708
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 5: hook because it's just that much easier, Or like, I

709
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 5: don't like the way their shoes all around the front door.

710
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 5: Can I put a bin and everybody puts their shoes

711
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 5: in the bin. They're not taking them to their bedrooms

712
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 5: and putting them in their closets, which would be my ideal,

713
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 5: But could you put them in a bin so they're

714
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 5: at least like out of the way, And people are like,

715
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 5: I could put them in a bin so you can find,

716
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 5: you can find because for many people like me, out

717
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 5: of order contributes to in her calm and it's really important.

718
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 5: And it's also a way like like I said, I'll

719
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 5: go over to my sister's house and clear her clutter,

720
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 5: because she's clutter one. She doesn't care. But there's all

721
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 5: this beautiful low hanging fruit for me.

722
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: I love it.

723
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 5: But if we live together, we would have to come

724
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 5: up with a way that I wouldn't drive her bonkers.

725
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 5: And she wouldn't drive me bonkers.

726
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you mentioned a hook, and I think that's

727
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: an interesting transition because in Better than Before, you just

728
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: talk about habits and how much of our just daily

729
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: habits contribute to our happiness. So is it something as

730
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: simple as that, like walking in the door having the

731
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: hook available, so the new habit becomes hanging on the hook?

732
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 4: How does that work?

733
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 5: Well, it's funny because so better than before, it's the

734
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 5: twenty one habit strategies that we can use to make

735
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 5: or break our habits. And there's all these strategies. Some

736
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 5: work well for every just about everyone, Some work really

737
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 5: well for some people, been up for others.

738
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: So there's twenty one.

739
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 5: But one of the most universal ones, and it's really

740
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 5: a pair they're paired, is the strategy of convenience and

741
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 5: the strategy of inconvenience. To a hilarious degree, we are

742
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 5: most more likely to do something if it's even slightly

743
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 5: more convenient, like they did this study showing that people

744
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: take less food from a buffet if you have to

745
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 5: use tongs instead of spoons, because a tong is just

746
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 5: a little bit more work, and so anyway, so these

747
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 5: little fixes, so you can use this because it's like

748
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 5: if it's slightly easier to use a bin then to

749
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 5: put the shoes away, if it's slightly easier to use

750
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 5: a hook than a hanger, you could really dramatically affect

751
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 5: how much consistently people would stick to that habit and

752
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 5: how easy it would be to form that habit and

753
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 5: keep it regularly. Of course, you can use it in

754
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 5: the opposite way, like let's say there's something that you

755
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 5: don't want yourself to do. So let's say you have

756
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 5: a habit of like coming home every day and turning

757
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 5: on the TV, and once the TV's on, you like

758
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 5: stand there and then you sit down and then two

759
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 5: hours go by. So it's like, okay, keep the remote

760
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 5: control in another room on a high shelf. So if

761
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 5: you're run it, if you want to watch TV, you

762
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 5: can go get that remote. It's not like you can

763
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 5: it's just not so convenient. Or it's like if you

764
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 5: don't people, I was talking to a guy, it's like

765
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 5: it's terrible. I know it's terrible. I text while I drive,

766
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 5: but you know, I just can't break the habit. How

767
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 5: do I work on my motivation so that I don't

768
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 5: text while I drive. I'm like, don't worry about your motivation.

769
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 5: Put your car in the put your put your phone

770
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 5: in the trunk. Then you know you can look you

771
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 5: can you can want to text all you want, but

772
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 5: you can do it if you leave it right there

773
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 5: on the seat next to you. Every time it pings,

774
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 5: you're going to look at it. Like, don't work, don't

775
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 5: work on your motivation in your mind, work on your surroundings.

776
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: It's so much easier.

777
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 5: So strategy of convenience, strategy of be inconvenience is a

778
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 5: great way to do that.

779
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: Out of the twelve commandments that you wrote about in

780
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: the Happiness Project, is there one that you feel just

781
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: really was the one that changed your life?

782
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: Well, it's b Grutchen, which is the one. And everybody

783
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 5: has to substitute their own names. So Kelly, be Chip,

784
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 5: don't be Grutching.

785
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: But it's really like I don't want to be.

786
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 5: For each of us, it's differ and our own our

787
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 5: happiness project is different because we have different values, different interests,

788
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 5: different situations, different challenges and so like for me, I

789
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 5: had a whole I do a lot of habits and

790
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 5: stuff related to reading because that's a really, really high

791
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 5: value to me, But for somebody else it might be

792
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 5: about music, and it might be about I want to

793
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 5: go to more concerts and I want to practice my

794
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 5: instrument and I want to like join a join or

795
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 5: start a band, and I want to listen to new music,

796
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 5: you know, And they might have a lot of habits

797
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 5: and a whole happiness project related to that, and you

798
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 5: know what, well, part of life in five senses, one

799
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 5: of the things I figured out is what is my

800
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 5: most neglected sense? Okay, and there's a quiz of people

801
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 5: want to know their most neglected sense, a gretchenmuben dot

802
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 5: com slash quiz. It will tell you your most neglected sense.

803
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 5: So my most neglected sense is taste. But I also

804
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 5: know that my second most neglected sense is hearing. And

805
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 5: I'm just really not a music person. But for and

806
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 5: I did a lot to like tap more into my

807
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 5: love of music as part of the project. But for

808
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 5: many people, the most appreciated sense is the sense of hearing.

809
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 5: And for a big reason of that is because of music.

810
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 5: Because so many people love music and it's such an

811
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 5: important part of a happier life for them.

812
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 2: But for me, not so much, or like I don't meditate.

813
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 5: I've tried twice. It's just not a tool that works

814
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 5: for me. For other people, of meditation is like a

815
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 5: central aspect of what they would do. And so instead

816
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 5: of saying, Gretchen, you must learn to meditate, you have

817
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 5: to do it. Everybody says it works. If it doesn't

818
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 5: work for you, you're doing it wrong or there's something wrong

819
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 5: for you. It's like I tried it, didn't work for me.

820
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 5: I tried it again, didn't work for me.

821
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: So I'm moving on.

822
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 5: It's not part of what I want to do, but

823
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 5: for somebody else it could be crucial. So we each

824
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 5: have to figure out our own So B Gretchen, B

825
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 5: Kelly be Chip is about think about yourself. Are you

826
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 5: a morning person or a night person? Are you clutter

827
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 5: blind or a simplicity person? You know, all these things

828
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 5: have to be, you know, considered because because we're each individual's.

829
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because that is the that is

830
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: the definite mention of housekeeping internally to me, is to

831
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: really get to know yourself authentically.

832
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so true.

833
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: Well, and it's it's tough right now.

834
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 6: I mean we live in a world now where you know,

835
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 6: everyone's trying to put everybody in boxes. So you know,

836
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 6: it's we're told, we're being told by the powers of

837
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 6: being that we can't be ourselves. So how do we

838
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 6: overcome that sort of external stimulation?

839
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm. Yeah, that's a really profound point because it

840
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 5: is a challenge. It's funny because people are always being

841
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 5: told to be authentic and it's like, you're like, what

842
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 5: does that even mean? But to think about that, yeah,

843
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 5: it is. I think I think that is the great

844
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 5: challenge of our lives. I mean, I think there is

845
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 5: no simple answer to that, because it's very, very hard

846
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 5: to know ourselves were. It's very easy to be influenced

847
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 5: by the way we wish we were, you know, by

848
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 5: the fantasy self, by the way other people want us

849
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 5: to be, by kind of what we assume must be true.

850
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 5: Like I remember when I learned that I don't like shopping.

851
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 5: I was like, I thought everybody like shopping.

852
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: I never encouraged me. I don't page.

853
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 5: No, I'm like, I yeah, so there's underbuyers and overviarers.

854
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 5: I'm like, I'm an underbier. I remember a friend of mine,

855
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 5: I forget. She like, she's like joined a country club.

856
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 5: Her family joined the country club, and I was like,

857
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 5: how do you like that country club? And she says, oh, Gretchen,

858
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 5: you know I hate the outdoors. And I'm just can

859
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 5: a person hate the outdoors? It seemed to be inconceivable

860
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 5: to me, but here she was saying that, just like, oh, yeah,

861
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 5: what are you gonna do? I'm like, Wow, that just

862
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 5: blows my mind. Right, of course she can hate the outdoors.

863
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 5: I like the outdoors. But but so I think it's

864
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 5: very confusing. I think it can be very confusing. And

865
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 5: it's also confusing because on the one hand, we want

866
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 5: to accept ourselves, and on the other hand, we want to.

867
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: Expect more from ourselves.

868
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 5: So we want to be true to our nature and

869
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 5: accept what is true about our deepest self and accept

870
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 5: that because there are some things that I am not

871
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 5: and I will never be, and let go of that.

872
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's painful to let go of that.

873
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 5: But then also I want to expect more from myself

874
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 5: and I want to know what is what can I

875
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 5: expect from myself? And again no one can tell me

876
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 5: that because only I know, Because you know, it's like

877
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 5: public speaking, is this something where You're like, this is

878
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 5: just so contrary to my nature that I just I

879
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 5: just have to let it go, or is it for

880
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 5: as it is for many people? Something like it makes

881
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 5: me really really nervous. But I think if I did

882
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 5: it enough, I would chill out and it would be okay.

883
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 5: And so I'm going to work on that and and

884
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 5: and expect more from myself and do something that pushes

885
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 5: me outside of my comfort zone. But for some people,

886
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 5: there are just things where it's just it's just not

887
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 5: who they are. I remember saying to somebody it make

888
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 5: because I was talking about the sadness of accepting who

889
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 5: you are, and I said, it just kind of makes

890
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 5: me sad that I'll know I will never go to

891
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 5: a jazz club at midnight.

892
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: And somebody wrote to.

893
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 5: Me on social media and they're like, Gretchen, you live

894
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 5: in New York City, you could you could absolutely go

895
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 5: to a jazz club at MIDI And I was like,

896
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 5: the thing is that I could go to a jazz

897
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 5: club at midnight. The problem is I will never want

898
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 5: to go to And I want to be the kind

899
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 5: of person who wants to go to a jazz club

900
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 5: at midnight, but I'm not. And I don't want to

901
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 5: just pretend like that is something that I have to

902
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 5: work about let it go and think about what I

903
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 5: want and what is true for me.

904
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 2: And that's very confusing.

905
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 5: And I think it's something that we have to reflect

906
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 5: on all and it changes over time. So I think

907
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 5: it's something that takes just constant reflection. I really, I

908
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 5: really think it's a crucial question. But it's not an

909
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 5: easy question. Well.

910
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: I actually love that you pointed out though, that that's

911
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: our lifelong journey. Yes, isn't that why we're all here?

912
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: And as you said, it's going to change, it's going

913
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: to evolve. So things like these twelve commandments help you

914
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: to just stay in touch with that, yes, instead of

915
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: just like losing touch.

916
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 5: Well, and it's interesting about the twelve commandments. This is

917
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 5: a really fun exercise, I think for anybody because it's

918
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 5: not like things like make your bed. It's not about like,

919
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 5: you know, go for a twenty minute walk every day.

920
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 5: It's not these like it's more about what are the

921
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 5: principles by which you want to live your life? And

922
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 5: I had twelve, but there was no matter. That's just

923
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 5: what I in the end, like I had more, I

924
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 5: had less, I combined. I said, some things didn't rise

925
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 5: to the level. So you could have five, you could

926
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 5: have fifteen. I wouldn't have thirty, But to come up

927
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 5: with your personal commandments, to really think about, like what

928
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 5: how do you express your deepest aims for yourself in

929
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 5: a kind of a succinct way. What's interesting about mine

930
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 5: is that many of these are quotations from other people.

931
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 5: There are things that people said to me that resonated

932
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 5: so deeply that I'm like, oh, this is this is

933
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 5: really really important. Or a quotation like one is from

934
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 5: my spiritual teacher, Saint tresl Luzia. She said, when one

935
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 5: loves one does not calculate. And when I read that, I'm.

936
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: Like, I am a being counter, i am a score keeper.

937
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: If you took a nap today, I'd take a nap tomorrow.

938
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: You know.

939
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 5: I'm like, that's no way to live, no calculation, you know.

940
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 5: So part of it is like what what does resonate

941
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 5: with you? Like what do you find yourself kind of

942
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 5: aiming for or reflecting on or reminding yourself. These are

943
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 5: things that I was like reminding myself of all the time,

944
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 5: and I'm like, okay, these are so these are my

945
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 5: personal commandments. So I mean it took me months and months,

946
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 5: but I have to say I wrote that years and

947
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 5: years ago and have never changed them because once I

948
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 5: found them, they really have been my like sort of

949
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 5: my true my true guides. But it's a really interesting

950
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 5: exercise to do for yourself.

951
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the point you made when you were

952
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: talking about those where you said, I think I'm not

953
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: giving to word it wrong, but it was something about

954
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: people aren't paying as much attention to your mistakes as

955
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: you are.

956
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 4: That one like pinged for me.

957
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: But I just constantly think, oh, they're just gonna see

958
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and it's like nobody cares what you're doing.

959
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: Really, we have that's called the spotlight bias.

960
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,959
Speaker 5: The spotlight biases being very well, it's that you feel

961
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 5: like we feel like we're in the spotlight. We're very

962
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 5: self conscious because we think people are very aware of

963
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 5: our mistakes or mishaps or like you know, like we

964
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 5: spilled something on our T shirt. And it's just like

965
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 5: you said, people aren't paying that much attention. And also

966
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 5: most people they got they're more chilled than you think.

967
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: You know. It's like if you trip on.

968
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 5: The way, you know, on your way upstate on stage,

969
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 5: nobody's going to think about that. For one more second,

970
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: you know, you drop your papers, nobody cares you take

971
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 5: too long in the coffee shop line, and everybody's rolling

972
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 5: their eyes. It's like they're not going to be thinking

973
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 5: about it in ten seconds from now. But you might

974
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 5: feel terrible all day long, right right, it's just to remember,

975
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 5: like you in a way, it's like you're just not

976
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 5: that important, you know, and there's comfort in that you

977
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 5: know other people just aren't paying that much attention.

978
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna ask you if you feel pressure,

979
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: as Gretchen Reuben to just be happy all the time.

980
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 4: But I feel like what I see.

981
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: In you is that you've kind of set up a

982
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: system for living with yourself. And so even if you

983
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: seem like I mean, if even I would imagine if

984
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: you're fluctuating between happiness or maybe not so happy moments,

985
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: you have the tools now, which to me, is what

986
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: life is about.

987
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 5: Do you feel that absolutely? I do feel that way,

988
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 5: and if you put it very well, like I do.

989
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 5: I do feel sadness, annoyance, regret, guil, boredom, frustration, all

990
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 5: all those things, and I don't I don't feel like

991
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 5: it's wrong for me to feel those or like somehow

992
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 5: I like you were saying ship earlier. I don't feel

993
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 5: like it's part of my identity that I don't feel those,

994
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 5: but I do feel like I have a lot of

995
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 5: tools now to deal with it. So, like, if I'm

996
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 5: really in a bad mood, I'm like, Okay, I got

997
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 5: ten things that I can do kind of in order

998
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 5: of importance and like and and I have a lot

999
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 5: of ways to try to manage it in a way

1000
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 5: that's constructive. I mean, one thing that a lot of

1001
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 5: times people do is you turn to an unhealthy treat

1002
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 5: and so it's something that makes you feel better in

1003
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 5: the moment, but then it just makes you feel worse

1004
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 5: long term. So I have a long list of healthy

1005
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 5: treats of things that I can do if I need

1006
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 5: a little lyft or a little boost of energy, or like,

1007
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 5: what are the things that I know will always give

1008
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 5: me comfort.

1009
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: I'm one of these.

1010
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 5: I'm like a real sleep zalet and like a lot

1011
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 5: of times, if I'm feeling really blue, I'm like, I

1012
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 5: just know myself. I know I'll feel better after good

1013
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 5: night's sleep, and if I go to bed at a

1014
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 5: thirty probably if I'm feeling really low, I'll be able

1015
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 5: to fall asleep and because fortunately for me, it has

1016
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 5: that effect and then I'll feel better in the morning.

1017
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: So why don't I just kind of put this to

1018
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: the side.

1019
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 5: I'll have a night's sleep, and then in the morning,

1020
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 5: I'll deal with whatever it is, and I'll probably be

1021
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 5: able to deal with it more constructively. So because I

1022
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 5: think some nice people we know these tools, but we

1023
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 5: sort of forget that we could use them. Or like,

1024
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 5: if people love music, one of the quickest easiest ways

1025
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 5: to intervene in your mood is to listen to to

1026
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 5: a like an upbeat song that you love. And so

1027
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 5: this is something that everybody has kind of in even

1028
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 5: somebody who's not a music lover like me. I have

1029
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 5: a few songs that I love and it's like, but

1030
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 5: you have to think, oh, why don't I do that?

1031
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 5: Or it's like I always get a lift when I

1032
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 5: walk around my neighborhood with my dog, Like I see

1033
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 5: my neighbors, I get some fresh air, get the sun

1034
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 5: in my face. I like spend time with my dog.

1035
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,919
Speaker 5: He's always so happy to go outside, Like just gives

1036
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,479
Speaker 5: me a lift. It's like, okay, but you gotta think

1037
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 5: of that, think, hey, why do you grab the leash

1038
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 5: and grab your dog and go outside and go for

1039
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 5: a walk, because you know that's going to make you

1040
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 5: feel better. I think sometimes we like because we're just

1041
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 5: like you said, busyness, we're so busy, or we just

1042
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 5: don't have the self awareness to say, like, wow, you know,

1043
00:44:57,920 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 5: I'm feeling really low.

1044
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: What is something that I could do?

1045
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 5: Not to minimize what I'm feeling or pretend like I'm

1046
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 5: not feeling it, but are there some small constructive things

1047
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 5: that maybe would help me manage my feelings more effectively,

1048
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 5: either by giving myself a quick lift so I can

1049
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 5: deal with a problem more effectively, giving myself more energy,

1050
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 5: giving myself more social support. Almost always, like when we

1051
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 5: connect with somebody, even something like a sales clerk or

1052
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 5: a quick chat with a neighbor or like or a

1053
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 5: deeper connection with a friend or a family member or

1054
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 5: a coworker like these these give us a feeling of

1055
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 5: engagement and comfort. But you have to say to yourself, okay, like,

1056
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 5: what are some tools? What might what might I do?

1057
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 5: And it's and again it's not to pretend like you're

1058
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 5: not feeling bad or that you're you're gonna sweep it

1059
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 5: under the rug. But it's like, if I felt better,

1060
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 5: more energetic, more supported, I would probably be able to

1061
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 5: deal with this better. And to say, are there things

1062
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 5: low hanging fruit that I can do?

1063
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've mentioned multiple of your books, but you said

1064
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: the latest one is Life in Five Senses. Can you

1065
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: tell the listeners a little bit about that book?

1066
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, every book I write, I think it's

1067
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 5: never going to be this good again, because this is

1068
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 5: the most fun book to write. And this book, oh

1069
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 5: my gosh, what a delightful book this was. So I

1070
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 5: went to the eye doctor one day I had pekai

1071
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 5: and he told me, oh, you know, be sure to

1072
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 5: come back for your uh, for your next for your

1073
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 5: regular appointment, because as you know, you're more at risk

1074
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 5: of losing your vision. And I was like, wait, what

1075
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,959
Speaker 5: are you talking about. I did not know that. He's like, oh, yeah,

1076
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 5: you know, you're you're so near sighted. You're at risk

1077
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 5: for getting a detached retina and that can that can

1078
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 5: take away your vision, so be sure to come back,

1079
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 5: you know. I was like, And I have a friend

1080
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 5: who had lost some of his vision to a detached retina,

1081
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,439
Speaker 5: so that felt very real to me. So I walked

1082
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 5: out unto the street, and I realized I was taking

1083
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 5: all this for granted, like I'm shocked by the prospect

1084
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 5: of losing my vision. But I didn't notice one thing

1085
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 5: around me as I was walking there in New York City,

1086
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 5: and in a single moment, it was like every sight

1087
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 5: was sharpened, every sound became was like on a separate track.

1088
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 5: I could smell every smell in New York City, which

1089
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 5: is very smell like it all just flooded into me

1090
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 5: and it was like this transcendent, almost psychedelic experience for

1091
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 5: my whole walk home. And that showed me that, you know,

1092
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 5: I've been studying happiness for years, but this showed me, like,

1093
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 5: this is something that I have been I've been stuck

1094
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 5: in my head. I've been lost in my own thoughts.

1095
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 5: I'm not connecting with the world around me, which also

1096
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 5: means that I'm not connecting as deeply with the people around.

1097
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: Me as I could.

1098
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 5: And you know, I looked at my husband and I

1099
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 5: was like, when was the last time I.

1100
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: Really looked at him?

1101
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 5: You know, And so that's that made me realize, Okay,

1102
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 5: I've got I need to focus on the five senses.

1103
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 5: And this was just such a delightful and for whatever

1104
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 5: aim you have to make yourself happier, healthier, more productive,

1105
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 5: more creative, there's a way to do it through the

1106
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 5: five senses.

1107
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: If you want to calm yourself down, you could think.

1108
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 2: And we all know the five senses so that it's

1109
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 2: easy to think of ideas.

1110
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 5: If I said you want to calm down, use your

1111
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 5: five senses, you could think of ideas.

1112
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: If I said you want to.

1113
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 5: Pump yourself up and give yourself more energy through the

1114
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 5: five cents, is you would have ideas for that. If

1115
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 5: I said you need to daydream and think outside the box,

1116
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 5: you could use the five senses. If I said you

1117
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 5: need to buckle down and do that dredge work, you.

1118
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: Could use the five senses.

1119
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 5: If I said engage with the moment or connect with

1120
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 5: the past, the five senses and then it's superpower too

1121
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 5: was connecting us with other people. So it's like any

1122
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 5: direction you want to go. And the thing I like

1123
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 5: about using the five senses is usually it feels it's

1124
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 5: so concrete. It's that immersive feeling. It's that feeling of

1125
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 5: being inside the body I think everybody's craving these days.

1126
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 2: It just feels.

1127
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 5: Playful and fun and manageable, Like I just it's just

1128
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 5: the happiest kind of like space to be in. I mean,

1129
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 5: I had all my friends. I had my friends over

1130
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 5: for a taste party, and I had them all taste

1131
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 5: Heinz Ketchup. And Heine's Ketchup is like a magic food.

1132
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,800
Speaker 5: It has all five tastes sweet, sour, bitter, salty, and umami.

1133
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 5: That's very very unusual that you could hit all five senses,

1134
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 5: all all five tastes. And people were like, their mind,

1135
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 5: this is like bonkers to them. They were like, this

1136
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 5: is amazing. This is so complex, This is so sophisticated.

1137
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 5: Now I understand, like why it's a secret ingredient in

1138
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 5: so many foods because Heinz Ketchup. There's a reason that

1139
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 5: we all have Heines ketch beinner because it's it's it's

1140
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 5: it's it's this exceptional experience that we're all taking for granted.

1141
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 2: And it's right there. It's right in your fridge.

1142
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 5: There's packets of it in your glove box right this second.

1143
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 5: Like and but if you would stop and just go

1144
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 5: taste it. A friend of mine was like, if I

1145
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 5: didn't know this was ketchup, I would think it was

1146
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 5: some like rare, super expensive, like imported ingredient.

1147
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: Because it's so try try it.

1148
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 5: You will see it's that the mouthfield, the like, the initial,

1149
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 5: the back the way I mean it's and then see

1150
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 5: if you can if you can taste the sweet, the sour,

1151
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 5: the bitter, the salty, and the mommy, I mean the

1152
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 5: only like some things hit four, like a margarita is for,

1153
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 5: but it doesn't have a mommy.

1154
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: It's very hard to have all five. I don't even

1155
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 2: know mommy is well.

1156
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 5: It's interesting that you don't know mommy because that came.

1157
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 5: That's the most recent of the kind of in the

1158
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 5: West we have five senses that we principally talk about.

1159
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 5: That's the most recent. It was identified in nineteen o

1160
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 5: eight by a scientist, so it's pretty it's a recent.

1161
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 5: Umammy is kind of hurdiness or meatiness. So tomato sauce

1162
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 5: has umammy, meat has umammy, mushrooms have umammy. Okay, it's

1163
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 5: like that feeling of like savoriness. It's kind of like hurdiness.

1164
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 5: So you know, ketchup feels substantial. It feels like it

1165
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,280
Speaker 5: feels like a like a hurdy feeling, whereas something else

1166
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 5: might not might not have that umammy, Like lemonade doesn't

1167
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 5: have umami, right, Like, it doesn't it feels thin, it

1168
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 5: feel it doesn't have that hurdiness. Yeah, there's a lot

1169
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 5: of senses. There are a lot of tastes that people

1170
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 5: are arguing for. Like, so they are all these sort

1171
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 5: of like wannabes that some people are arguing for. But

1172
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 5: these are the big these are these are the big

1173
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 5: five we've all accepted.

1174
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I will put the description that will put

1175
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: the link for that book and all Gretchen's books in

1176
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 1: the description of this podcast. You can find them on

1177
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: her website. On her web so you can also find

1178
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: a link to the Happier app and the Happier Podcast.

1179
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: So will you tell us what the listeners will find

1180
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: in both of those?

1181
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 5: Okay, the Happier app is this. So one thing we

1182
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 5: didn't talk about at all is I have this personality

1183
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 5: framework that divides people into four categories of polders, questions

1184
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 5: of and that tells you a lot about like how

1185
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 5: you can most effectively manage your habits or deal with conflict,

1186
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 5: or or if you know someone else's tendency can help you,

1187
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 5: like work with them more effectively, which I think is

1188
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 5: even more interesting to people just how to get other

1189
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 5: people to do what you want. So so the Happier

1190
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 5: app uses that framework to help you figure out what

1191
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 5: habit formation tools are most likely to work with you,

1192
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 5: so don't have to just throw spaghetti against walls.

1193
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 2: But it has been you can use any of the tools.

1194
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 5: So there's like a one sentence journal, don't break the chain,

1195
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 5: a photo journal, accountability partners, plus it has like quotations

1196
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 5: and jumpstarts. There's a lot going on there to help

1197
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 5: people stick to their happier boosting habits. So that's the

1198
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 5: Happier app. And then my podcast is called Happier with

1199
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 5: Gretchen Rubin. It's a weekly podcast. My co host is

1200
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 5: my sister, Elsath Kraft. She's the clutter blind one. She's

1201
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 5: a Hollywood show runner, so she's got a big Hollywood

1202
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 5: job and so there we talk about kind of cutting

1203
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 5: edge science and the wisdom of the ages, suggestions from

1204
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 5: our listeners and from our own experiences about how to

1205
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 5: be happier, and it's very kind of practical.

1206
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I feel like all of your tools are

1207
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: actually really practical, Like the tangible step. I love having

1208
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: like a list of things or like the actual steps

1209
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: are paying attention to the senses you're just getting in

1210
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: your body. Like that all feels very practical and tangible

1211
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: to me.

1212
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know about you, but I get very

1213
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 5: frustrated when people talk in abstractions run like I agree

1214
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 5: with you, but I just am not understanding how.

1215
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:46,879
Speaker 4: Do I do it?

1216
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: You know, starting tomorrow? What would I do different that?

1217
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 5: And so I like it when people are like, here's

1218
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 5: fifteen things, Yes, here's two, because a lot of times

1219
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 5: and we see this with our listeners, is like it's

1220
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 5: something that is very easy and even fun, but it

1221
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 5: just never occurred to you, Like it's just like a

1222
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 5: new idea that you're like, oh, I could I could

1223
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 5: do that, or like somebody points something out, like you know,

1224
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 5: like one thing that we do on the podcast is, uh,

1225
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 5: we do what's called like a twenty three for twenty

1226
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,439
Speaker 5: three list. So for for twenty two, it was twenty

1227
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 5: two for twenty two. You just make a list of

1228
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 5: twenty three things you want to get done in twenty

1229
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 5: twenty three, and then we do it at the beginning

1230
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 5: of the year.

1231
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 2: We check in at that in halfway.

1232
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 5: Day, which is July second, and then at the end,

1233
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 5: and it's just like, just by writing them down and

1234
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 5: checking the list a couple of times, you're much more

1235
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 5: likely to get those things done. And it's like, yeah, once,

1236
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 5: but nobody. It's kind of fun that it incorporates the year.

1237
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 5: But then people do funny things like they'll do they'll

1238
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 5: do it's I want to do five things because it's

1239
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 5: two plus three or whatever, and it's like, you just

1240
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 5: need somebody to suggest that because it's not like it's

1241
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:51,720
Speaker 5: not like it's so out of the out of the box,

1242
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 5: and it's not like you couldn't do it yourself if

1243
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 5: you thought of it, but you just never did think

1244
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 5: of it. And when somebody says it, it's like, oh, I.

1245
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: Could do that, that's sons Uh yeah, exactly. Well, you

1246
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: guys go check it out. This conversation has made me

1247
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: very happy Gretchen.

1248
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 2: For being a lover. I feel I have no enjoy it.

1249
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: You guys go check out Gretchen Ruben dot com for

1250
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: all your happiness. Toolkits and Gretchen, thank you so much

1251
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: for being here.

1252
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: We really appreciate it.

1253
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: Thank you. I was so happy to be part of

1254
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: this conversation.