WEBVTT - Rabies: When Monsters are Real…from Incubation 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.796 Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob. If you want more podcasts about 0:00:23.956 --> 0:00:28.036 creative people solving high stakes technical problems, I've got good 0:00:28.076 --> 0:00:30.836 news for you. A new season of a show called 0:00:30.956 --> 0:00:35.596 Incubation is out now. Incubation is a show about viruses. 0:00:36.076 --> 0:00:38.676 I'm the host of the show, and the people I 0:00:38.836 --> 0:00:42.476 interviewed for this season have been full of insight and delight, 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:45.676 and I have learned a ton. So basically, I think 0:00:45.756 --> 0:00:48.596 if you like What's Your Problem, you will like Incubation. 0:00:49.476 --> 0:00:52.156 Here is the first episode of the new season of 0:00:52.196 --> 0:00:54.316 the show, and if you do like it, you can 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:59.476 listen to more episodes wherever you're listening to this. Here's 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:03.316 the story about rabies. In three sentences, you get bitten 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:06.476 by a rabbit animal, you'll lose control of your mind, 0:01:06.996 --> 0:01:10.956 and then you die. So it is not surprising that 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:15.036 Raby's terrified humanity for thousands of years. Why do you 0:01:15.076 --> 0:01:17.196 write a book about Raby's, gosh? 0:01:17.476 --> 0:01:21.876 I have always thought Rabi's was so interesting in terms 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:25.716 of its biology, the way it hijacks the brain to 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:29.236 ensure that it'll continue its own spread, the way it 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:32.316 affects the relationship between people and animals, which since I'm 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:34.916 a veterinarian is pretty central to my life. 0:01:35.236 --> 0:01:38.356 Monica Murphy is a veterinarian and the co author with 0:01:38.476 --> 0:01:42.436 Bill Wasick of Rabbit, a cultural History of the world's 0:01:42.436 --> 0:01:46.836 most diabolical virus. I should mention that Monica also happens 0:01:46.876 --> 0:01:48.796 to be my neighbor and a friend of mine. 0:01:48.956 --> 0:01:53.916 I think the stories that my rabbit Google alert turns 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:58.156 up every week. You know, bobcats like coming into a bar, 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:02.556 and like assaulting someone at a pool table, or raccoons 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:07.556 attacking people's trucks. All that stuff is just really interesting 0:02:07.836 --> 0:02:11.956 and scary and the stuff of nightmares. But I love 0:02:11.996 --> 0:02:13.796 that science has an answer for all of that. 0:02:14.876 --> 0:02:18.756 In the developed world, almost nobody gets rabies anymore. In 0:02:18.796 --> 0:02:21.316 the United States, it's fewer than ten people a year. 0:02:21.796 --> 0:02:24.076 Even our dogs are safe from the disease for the 0:02:24.116 --> 0:02:27.236 most part. And the reason for this, the reason we 0:02:27.276 --> 0:02:29.996 don't have to worry that every barking dog we see 0:02:30.116 --> 0:02:32.436 might bite us and kill us, goes back to one 0:02:32.476 --> 0:02:35.156 of the most important scientists in the history of both 0:02:35.276 --> 0:02:41.996 viruses and vaccines, Louis Pasteur. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this 0:02:42.116 --> 0:02:45.516 is Incubation, a show about viruses. We're delighted to be 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:48.596 launching season two today. We have lots more viruses to 0:02:48.636 --> 0:02:51.916 talk about this season, and we're starting with rabies. In 0:02:51.956 --> 0:02:53.436 the first half of the show, we'll be talking to 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:56.716 Monica about rabies and the work of Louis Pasteur. In 0:02:56.756 --> 0:02:58.316 the second half of the show, we'll talk to a 0:02:58.356 --> 0:03:04.276 scientist who's fighting rabies in wildlife in a really surprising way. 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:10.676 Talk about rabies. What is rabies? 0:03:11.276 --> 0:03:17.836 So, Rabies is an RNA virus. It is special because 0:03:18.356 --> 0:03:23.396 it is transmitted through bites, primarily unlike the sort of 0:03:23.396 --> 0:03:26.956 transmission pattern we see with other viruses. In rabies, at 0:03:26.956 --> 0:03:30.716 the site of the bite, the virus is looking to 0:03:30.716 --> 0:03:35.276 interact with a nerve, and once it has engaged the nerve, 0:03:36.036 --> 0:03:38.556 it kind of ratchets its way up the central nervous 0:03:38.596 --> 0:03:42.636 system from the bite site through peripheral nerves up into 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:44.916 the spine, and from the spine up into the brain. 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:49.116 It takes a while. It's a slow, slow process. 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:51.156 It's like a centimeter a day. 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:56.596 There is a real sort of relationship between how far 0:03:56.636 --> 0:03:58.796 away the bite is from the brain and how long 0:03:58.956 --> 0:04:03.316 it takes to develop rabies, although it's not strict, and 0:04:03.356 --> 0:04:06.996 it does mean that if you're bitten on the face, 0:04:07.636 --> 0:04:10.196 you are likely to come down with rabies faster than 0:04:10.196 --> 0:04:13.756 if you're bitten on the toe, and not every bite 0:04:13.756 --> 0:04:18.076 from a rabbit animal will result in transmission something like 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:23.276 twenty percent your round number. And once the virus does 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:26.236 make it into the brain, you're going to develop symptoms 0:04:26.236 --> 0:04:30.436 of rabies. They're horrible, and then you're going to die. 0:04:30.596 --> 0:04:34.916 It's practically speaking one hundred percent fatal, like really rotten. 0:04:35.076 --> 0:04:38.156 And the way it works too, which is pretty horrifying 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:40.636 if you think about it, is it's hijacking the brain 0:04:40.676 --> 0:04:43.236 to ensure that it's going to be spread to another individual. 0:04:43.316 --> 0:04:48.236 And you say, what do you mean, So in especially 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:48.436 in the. 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:52.116 Species it's adapted to, let's say dog rabies. In the dog, 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:57.196 it is going to stimulate parts of the brain that 0:04:57.276 --> 0:05:00.876 kind of rev up that dog's sort of social emotional state, 0:05:01.436 --> 0:05:05.236 make it much more prone to violence and biting incidents 0:05:05.276 --> 0:05:09.636 with other dogs. So that meanwhile it's being creeded in 0:05:09.676 --> 0:05:12.396 the saliva. It's really increasing the likelihood that it's going 0:05:12.436 --> 0:05:15.236 to make it into another dog and continuous life cycle, 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:15.916 which is. 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:18.876 Kind of amazing, right, Like it's just a virus, yeah, 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:23.156 And it's essentially evolved to like change the behavior of 0:05:23.156 --> 0:05:27.156 this complex mammal to make it bite other mammals so 0:05:27.196 --> 0:05:29.716 that the virus will spread. Like that is a wild 0:05:29.836 --> 0:05:30.796 feet of evolution. 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:37.596 Yeah, yeah, it's really really scary. In places where humans 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:40.956 are frequently in contact with rabbit animals, the sort of 0:05:41.196 --> 0:05:44.916 behavioral changes that occur in the human Rebee's victim are 0:05:44.956 --> 0:05:50.676 also really messy. You know, human with Raebe's might not 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:52.916 actively try to bite you, unless they're a little kid. 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:56.556 They might punch you in the nose or just scream 0:05:56.636 --> 0:05:57.356 curses at you. 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:00.476 In general, people become more hostile. 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:02.476 More violent, yeah, or sexed up. 0:06:02.836 --> 0:06:07.196 Uh huh so just like more id Yeah, terrifying. You're 0:06:07.396 --> 0:06:10.876 being attacked by your own rain right, somehow, You're like 0:06:11.636 --> 0:06:15.636 your own thoughts are attacking you. Yeah, yeah, I mean 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:19.236 so you talk with respect to that in the book 0:06:19.436 --> 0:06:24.636 about kind of rabies and mythology, right, rabies and were wolves, 0:06:24.916 --> 0:06:27.316 rabies and vampires, like, tell me about that. 0:06:27.756 --> 0:06:31.276 There's at least a deep resonance between these stories of 0:06:31.676 --> 0:06:36.476 a sort of contagious you know, contagious zombieism or werewolf 0:06:36.556 --> 0:06:40.756 ism or vampirism where the bite the bite. Yeah, and 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:43.316 there's the association with bats of vampires and. 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:48.156 Both and both bats and wolves are historical vectors of rabies, 0:06:48.276 --> 0:06:52.356 just to be clear. So this is kind of rabies. 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:58.316 It's this ancient disease. It is terrifying where crazed animals 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:02.356 bite people and turn people into crazed animals who then die. 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:08.716 Basically the state of play rabies forever. And then onto 0:07:09.316 --> 0:07:12.556 the stage of history walks our hero, Louis Pasteur. That's right, 0:07:12.796 --> 0:07:14.156 tell me about Pasteur. 0:07:14.676 --> 0:07:17.076 Most folks know at least a little bit about Louis 0:07:17.076 --> 0:07:21.076 Pastor because he had a long scientific career. He was 0:07:21.156 --> 0:07:27.516 trained as a physicist and chemist, and he grew into 0:07:27.796 --> 0:07:33.116 more of a microbiological concentration in his work. Along the way, 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:35.596 he established germ theory. 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:39.516 Yes, that people thought was like a crazy idea. And 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:43.036 this is like a mid to late eighteen hundreds, right, 0:07:43.396 --> 0:07:47.116 and the world already had the smallpox vaccine at this point. 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:50.276 But I do feel like it's worth remembering here that 0:07:50.276 --> 0:07:52.556 that was sort of this lucky break, right, where like 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:55.476 there just happened to be this mild disease, cowpox, that 0:07:55.556 --> 0:08:00.276 made people immune to this terrible disease to smallpox, and Pasteur, 0:08:00.316 --> 0:08:02.756 as you write in the book. He decides that he's 0:08:02.796 --> 0:08:06.236 going to apply this germ theory to vaccines, right, He's 0:08:06.276 --> 0:08:09.516 actually going to use science to create a vaccin So 0:08:10.356 --> 0:08:11.156 tell us about that. 0:08:11.716 --> 0:08:15.636 What Louis Prester sought to do and succeeded in doing 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:20.796 for the first time ever is manipulating microbes to sort 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:24.276 of move them away from their wild state into an 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:28.516 attenuated week in state and induce immunity using. 0:08:28.516 --> 0:08:32.516 Those right, So okay, so pasteur. He develops a few 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:35.956 animal vaccines in this way, and then he decides that 0:08:36.036 --> 0:08:38.636 the first human vaccine he's going to make is going 0:08:38.676 --> 0:08:41.556 to be a rabies vaccine, you know, a vaccine for 0:08:41.596 --> 0:08:45.516 this terrifying disease. So what does he actually have to do? 0:08:46.116 --> 0:08:49.916 So, because there's no way to grow rabies inside of 0:08:49.916 --> 0:08:53.596 a test tube, he had to maintain a population of 0:08:53.636 --> 0:08:54.796 rabbit animals in his lab. 0:08:54.956 --> 0:08:55.516 Terrifying. 0:08:55.916 --> 0:09:00.116 Yeah awful, I mean really gruesome and scary for the 0:09:00.116 --> 0:09:03.276 people he worked with. They would harvest the saliva and 0:09:04.076 --> 0:09:07.276 introduce it into more dogs or into rabbits. 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:10.556 How do you harvest the salon from a rabid dog 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:13.796 really carefully? Yeah? Right, I walked into that. 0:09:13.996 --> 0:09:15.596 But yeah, involving like a high pet. 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:19.996 Oh my god, in the mouth of a rabbit dog. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:20.396 --> 0:09:23.516 I'm gonna die. Yeah, I'm afraid. So so you've got 0:09:23.516 --> 0:09:27.596 step one, find the nasty disease. Step two, seemingly the 0:09:27.636 --> 0:09:30.436 harder part, turn that nasty disease into a thing that 0:09:30.516 --> 0:09:33.356 will induce some unity without causing disease. 0:09:33.556 --> 0:09:35.516 Right, they can't see the microbe, they know it's in 0:09:35.596 --> 0:09:40.516 the nervous tissue. So they start dissecting out nervous tissue 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:46.796 from animals with rabies, specifically rabbits, and they aged it. 0:09:47.396 --> 0:09:50.116 They aged the tissue in a sort of desiccating tray 0:09:50.716 --> 0:09:55.516 and determined that with sufficient aging it weakens it. 0:09:55.756 --> 0:09:58.276 Just leave it sitting on the shelf for a while. 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:02.436 Yeah, Except they ultimately arrived at a method that was 0:10:02.476 --> 0:10:06.636 a lot more complex. They had a sort of well 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:10.756 whole sort of assembly line of tissues at various stages 0:10:10.796 --> 0:10:13.316 of aging. So you know, you've got your your rabbit 0:10:13.396 --> 0:10:16.116 spinal quarter over here that's aged fourteen days, and here's 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:18.996 a thirteen day one, and okay, et cetera. The ones 0:10:19.036 --> 0:10:21.636 that are oldest are least virulent. The ones that are 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:25.996 newest are most virulent and too dangerous to put right 0:10:26.036 --> 0:10:28.676 into a person right out of the gate. So they 0:10:28.716 --> 0:10:33.156 start with an injection of the longest aged nervous tissue, 0:10:33.236 --> 0:10:36.596 the weakest, the weakest one, and then over they think 0:10:36.636 --> 0:10:40.716 of his ten days the initial protocol, they inject thirteen 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:46.676 injections with progressively stronger that is, newer tissue. 0:10:46.276 --> 0:10:49.116 And so is the basic idea, like the weakest one 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:52.796 induces some immune response, so that you can then tolerate 0:10:52.836 --> 0:10:55.076 a slightly stronger one, and you're kind of going up 0:10:55.076 --> 0:10:56.796 a staircase of immunity. 0:10:57.116 --> 0:10:59.276 That's how he developed it. And of course today we 0:10:59.436 --> 0:11:03.036 just have a single strength Maybe's vaccine in use. So 0:11:03.196 --> 0:11:06.116 his method wasn't the only way to induce immunity, but 0:11:06.156 --> 0:11:08.196 it's you know, they were dealing with a one hundred 0:11:08.196 --> 0:11:11.756 percent fatal disease, is I think understandably nervous about introducing 0:11:11.756 --> 0:11:15.396 it into people, and they realized both that they can 0:11:15.756 --> 0:11:18.516 they can do pre exposure vaccination so that the dog 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:20.556 can't get infected with Rabi's. 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:23.876 Uh huh, hold that thought, that's. 0:11:23.716 --> 0:11:26.316 Not put into use right away, But then they also 0:11:26.636 --> 0:11:31.396 can start a series of vaccine after the dog has 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:33.676 been exposed to Raby's and prevent him from coming down 0:11:33.676 --> 0:11:34.236 with the disease. 0:11:34.796 --> 0:11:37.396 So they figure this out, and then we have this 0:11:37.756 --> 0:11:41.116 moment when it's time to try it on a person 0:11:41.236 --> 0:11:43.636 for the first time. What is that moment? 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:48.956 So a case was brought to Louis Pester's attention that 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:53.036 seemed sufficiently concerning to take a chance on this vaccine 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:58.796 and involved a young boy who was bitten by the 0:11:58.836 --> 0:12:03.676 grocer's dog who had had undergone a suspicious behavior change 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:08.396 and was marauding the neighborhood. The bites were extensive, and 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:11.596 so that's another potential risk factor for development. 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:13.316 Of Rabi's we talked about, meaning he got bit. 0:12:13.436 --> 0:12:16.716 Lots of places, you know, lots of places really deeply, 0:12:17.156 --> 0:12:19.236 so lots of places where the virus could have encountered 0:12:19.236 --> 0:12:22.196 a nerve, making it likely that he was going to 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:24.676 come down with rabies at some point. They were very 0:12:24.716 --> 0:12:30.036 pessimistic about the boy's chances, and so they sent him 0:12:30.076 --> 0:12:31.556 to Paris to. 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.236 Louis Pestor's lab, where he had this vaccine that he 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:37.196 had not yet tested on a human being. 0:12:37.316 --> 0:12:39.796 Yeah, he had been thinking about testing it on himself. 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:41.636 Uh huh, a kind of tradition in science. 0:12:41.756 --> 0:12:45.636 Yes, But before he had a chance to test on himself. 0:12:45.676 --> 0:12:48.636 He was persuaded by the physicians caring for this boy 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:51.876 that this kid might very likely to die if he 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:56.356 doesn't get the vaccine, and so Pastor went ahead with 0:12:56.396 --> 0:12:57.076 his process. 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:01.436 So the boy gets this experimental vaccine, and now Pastor 0:13:01.476 --> 0:13:04.356 has to just wait right wait to see what happened. 0:13:04.356 --> 0:13:07.236 So what's going on with Pastor while he's waiting to 0:13:07.276 --> 0:13:08.716 see whether the boy survives? 0:13:09.636 --> 0:13:16.036 Well, Pastor was sleepless. He was just in a state 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:19.396 of agonized waiting and was having health problems related to that. 0:13:19.596 --> 0:13:21.836 He traveled a little bit for his health. Well, he 0:13:22.236 --> 0:13:23.596 sort of ticked down the days. 0:13:23.836 --> 0:13:24.836 What happens with the boy? 0:13:25.236 --> 0:13:28.956 The boy does great. He remains healthy during the ten 0:13:29.036 --> 0:13:31.916 day process where he could see innoculations, and once a 0:13:31.956 --> 0:13:34.676 few months had passed, at the point at which you know, 0:13:34.716 --> 0:13:36.756 it was believed he would have come down with rabies 0:13:36.796 --> 0:13:39.956 by now, if not because of the because the bytes, 0:13:39.956 --> 0:13:44.676 perhaps because the vaccine was dangerous, he continued to thrive. 0:13:45.116 --> 0:13:49.396 Okay, so the vaccine works, what like, how does it play? 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:52.476 People were excited around the world. I mean, the vanquishing 0:13:52.516 --> 0:13:56.076 of rabies was big news. Just as Pistar had calculated, 0:13:57.676 --> 0:14:03.036 not immediately embraced by everyone. There were physicians everywhere who 0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:05.356 had been following the science and sort of got it 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:07.596 and were eager to put it to use. 0:14:08.116 --> 0:14:10.876 And in those sort of long run in the you know, 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:16.836 one hundred year arc What what does pastors work mean 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:21.556 both for rabies and for you know, disease research and 0:14:21.596 --> 0:14:24.276 treatment more generally, His lab. 0:14:24.116 --> 0:14:29.196 Is often credited with developing the science of immunology and 0:14:29.636 --> 0:14:32.916 furthermore lead the foundations just with the basic idea that, like, 0:14:33.116 --> 0:14:35.396 you can take infectious agents and you can figure out 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:39.516 a way to make them weaker. That is the basis 0:14:39.596 --> 0:14:42.116 on which all modern vaccine science works. 0:14:42.596 --> 0:14:48.356 So let's talk about rabies today. What is the status 0:14:48.396 --> 0:14:49.316 of rabies today? 0:14:49.996 --> 0:14:54.236 So rabies is still a problem in many parts of 0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:58.196 the world who have not yet eliminated dog rabies. But 0:14:58.236 --> 0:15:02.036 we're really lucky here that the use of the pre 0:15:02.196 --> 0:15:07.156 exposure vaccine and dogs eliminated dog rabies. We no longer 0:15:07.276 --> 0:15:09.756 have to like look askance at our pet dog and 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:14.316 worry that contact with them could kill us. The parts 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:17.516 of the world where that is not true, where dog 0:15:17.556 --> 0:15:21.076 rabies is still endemic, places like India and parts of Africa, 0:15:21.356 --> 0:15:24.996 there are still a lot of human rabies deaths. I 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:29.156 think the who uses the number sixty thousand rabies deaths 0:15:29.236 --> 0:15:32.316 are still happening every year around the world. That numbers 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:36.716 is really contested. It's been a real challenge getting the 0:15:37.236 --> 0:15:40.116 vaccines and the other products that fight rabies to the 0:15:40.156 --> 0:15:44.916 people who need them most. But those products are prohibitively expensive. 0:15:45.036 --> 0:15:49.716 So raebies is considered a neglected disease by the international 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:53.516 health authorities. But people are still dying of rabies. And 0:15:53.516 --> 0:15:56.676 then in parts of the world like Europe and the 0:15:56.756 --> 0:15:59.996 United States where dog rabies is not the issue, we 0:16:00.036 --> 0:16:01.316 do still have wildlife rabies. 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:05.316 So like in the US, what wild animals have rabies? 0:16:05.916 --> 0:16:13.556 There's rabies adapted to fox, skunks, raccoons, and a whole 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:15.836 lot of bats in the United States. 0:16:16.076 --> 0:16:18.916 Right, I read that, like, if you wake up and 0:16:18.956 --> 0:16:21.956 there's a bat in your room, you should probably get 0:16:21.956 --> 0:16:23.796 a rabies shot because bats can bite you and you 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:24.796 don't even know us. 0:16:24.836 --> 0:16:27.436 Yes, there's an argument for getting raby's vaccine if you 0:16:27.476 --> 0:16:29.356 wake up in a room with a bat, although you 0:16:29.396 --> 0:16:30.836 know you should consult your local. 0:16:30.636 --> 0:16:34.396 Health Stuard writing the book change the way you think 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.716 about the relationship between humans and animals. 0:16:37.876 --> 0:16:40.316 I do think that there is a way in which 0:16:40.836 --> 0:16:44.236 our relationship with dogs and cats especially, you know, the 0:16:44.316 --> 0:16:46.876 sort of pure sweetness of it that a lot of 0:16:46.956 --> 0:16:49.636 us experience now, like it was it had a darker 0:16:49.716 --> 0:16:51.916 side in the pre vaccine era. 0:16:52.356 --> 0:16:55.116 Your dog could turn into a monster and kill you 0:16:55.276 --> 0:16:57.796 or your child. Yes, that was like a real thing 0:16:57.836 --> 0:16:58.956 that could definitely happen. 0:16:58.996 --> 0:17:01.356 It was a real thing, and that was that made 0:17:01.396 --> 0:17:05.196 it really hard to like love and baby our dogs 0:17:05.236 --> 0:17:08.236 in quite the same way as we do today. 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:12.396 So like this modern phenomenon of the dog being, to 0:17:12.636 --> 0:17:15.236 what is arguably a weird extent, a part of the family, 0:17:15.596 --> 0:17:18.956 and I include my own family as you know, in 0:17:18.996 --> 0:17:22.356 that that like, you couldn't really have that without pasteur, 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:23.716 without the rabies vaccine. 0:17:23.756 --> 0:17:28.196 It certainly doesn't reach its sort of completion without that. 0:17:29.076 --> 0:17:32.236 I mean, it's wonderful for those of us who love dogs. 0:17:33.196 --> 0:17:34.876 Thank you, Monica, That was delightful. 0:17:35.276 --> 0:17:36.276 Yeah. Thanks. 0:17:38.636 --> 0:17:42.036 Monica Murphy is the co author with Bill Wassick of Rabbit, 0:17:42.316 --> 0:17:46.396 a cultural history of the world's most diabolical virus. Their 0:17:46.396 --> 0:17:50.516 most recent book is Our Kindred Creatures. How Americans came 0:17:50.556 --> 0:17:53.876 to feel the way they do about animals. We'll be 0:17:53.916 --> 0:17:55.996 back in a minute to talk about the surprising way 0:17:56.076 --> 0:18:00.236 that wildlife biologists are fighting rabies in America right now. 0:18:08.076 --> 0:18:10.236 By the early part of the twenty first century, the 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:14.596 rabies vaccine had almost entirely eliminated rabies from people and 0:18:14.676 --> 0:18:17.916 dogs in the United States, but the disease has persisted 0:18:17.956 --> 0:18:22.276 in wild animals. I talked about this with Kathy Nelson 0:18:22.796 --> 0:18:23.236 years ago. 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:25.196 When I was in Vermont. We used to operate a 0:18:26.156 --> 0:18:28.436 rabies hotline in the state. It would get calls in 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:30.636 from the public and we would sometimes go out to 0:18:30.676 --> 0:18:35.116 investigate them, and we had a skunk that was trying 0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:38.076 to bite the gas cap off of a lawnmower. And 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.916 they'll just bite anything that's in sight, because that's one 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:46.156 of the fascinating parts about the virus is that it's 0:18:46.516 --> 0:18:48.916 designed to tell the brain to bite things. 0:18:49.356 --> 0:18:53.196 Kathy is the wildlife biologist and the operations supervisor for 0:18:53.276 --> 0:18:57.316 the National Rabies Management Program with the US Department of Agriculture. 0:18:57.836 --> 0:19:00.196 For the past twenty six years, she's been part of 0:19:00.196 --> 0:19:03.036 a federal program that has been fighting rabies in a 0:19:03.076 --> 0:19:06.556 way that I have to say I found delightful. So 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:09.516 tell me about the first time you went up in 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:13.836 the air to fling rabies vaccines at the ground. 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:18.876 Yeah, I still remember it was so exciting. You you know, 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.956 you help load all these baits onto a plane. You 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:24.876 walk up the little steps of the small plane, you 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.276 get in it, someone closes the hatch on you. You know, 0:19:27.316 --> 0:19:31.596 the engines start, you take off. You're flying over beautiful 0:19:31.796 --> 0:19:36.916 terrain and landscape, just beautiful agricultural forested land. And you know, 0:19:36.996 --> 0:19:40.156 the person up front says, okay, machine on and you know, 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:42.356 baits are going down this little belt and I'm just 0:19:42.396 --> 0:19:45.556 moving them around, looking out the window, seeing moose, deer, 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:48.876 you know, all kinds of wildlife. I couldn't literally could 0:19:48.916 --> 0:19:50.756 not believe that I was getting paid to do a 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:51.316 job like this. 0:19:52.476 --> 0:19:53.716 What kind of planes were you going up? 0:19:53.716 --> 0:19:53.876 Then? 0:19:54.356 --> 0:19:56.116 They have a single wing, two engines. 0:19:56.476 --> 0:19:58.156 How many seats? Like, how small is it? 0:19:58.396 --> 0:20:00.556 If there were seats in them, there probably would be 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:02.956 it would probably be about a dozen seats. 0:20:03.036 --> 0:20:07.316 You're basically flying at a cargo van. Yeah, so these 0:20:07.356 --> 0:20:12.956 baits are falling from this. Maybe this is a dumb question, 0:20:13.076 --> 0:20:15.116 but like, is there ever any word they're going to 0:20:15.196 --> 0:20:16.196 hit somebody on the head. 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:19.156 Yeah, No, not a dumb question at all. Yeah, So 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:22.236 the navigator in the front seat, not the pilot, but 0:20:22.276 --> 0:20:25.796 the other person who is a USDA wild Life Services employee. 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:28.556 They have an on off switch. So anytime we're approaching 0:20:28.556 --> 0:20:31.516 a house or a road or a major body of water, 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:35.076 that switch goes off so that baits aren't distributed. You know, 0:20:35.116 --> 0:20:37.276 over the course of a twenty five year program, we've 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:41.796 hit a roof for two. But fortunately, you know, once 0:20:41.836 --> 0:20:46.076 folks learn about our program, they're generally really really accepting 0:20:46.116 --> 0:20:48.316 of it, and you know, they're not too mad. 0:20:48.716 --> 0:20:51.876 Is it happening like literally today? Is it happening this? 0:20:51.996 --> 0:20:54.956 You know, we're talking in August of twenty twenty four. 0:20:55.636 --> 0:20:56.956 Is there a plane in the air today? 0:20:57.316 --> 0:21:00.756 There is? Literally I got a text this morning saying 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:03.716 all five aircraft are taxing for run ups and take 0:21:03.756 --> 0:21:06.276 off in Watertown. That's Watertown, New York. 0:21:06.716 --> 0:21:10.076 Tell me about the baits, Like, what's one of look like? 0:21:10.796 --> 0:21:14.956 Tastes like, so we use different vaccine types. One of 0:21:15.036 --> 0:21:17.236 them looks like kind of like a little ketchup packet 0:21:17.516 --> 0:21:20.516 with a slight oil on the outside and attached to 0:21:20.556 --> 0:21:22.796 that oil or tiny little fishmeal crumbs. 0:21:23.076 --> 0:21:27.076 Fishmeal sounds delicious to a raccoon, I'm sure. 0:21:27.236 --> 0:21:30.876 Yeah, Okay, So the other company they make a sweet 0:21:30.916 --> 0:21:34.916 bait and it's a sugary, sweet like marshmallow kind of 0:21:34.956 --> 0:21:36.316 sweet vanilla based bait. 0:21:36.716 --> 0:21:38.836 Presumably you can't just like fling these things out of 0:21:38.836 --> 0:21:41.716 an airplane over a city, right, So how do you 0:21:41.836 --> 0:21:43.996 how do you do it? In you know, urban areas. 0:21:44.236 --> 0:21:47.956 Primarily we drive around in trucks. You know, someone's driving, 0:21:47.996 --> 0:21:50.116 another person has the window down in the passenger seat. 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:54.676 They're tossing a couple of baits down. We record the 0:21:54.716 --> 0:21:57.396 location of all of these baits with a GPS unit 0:21:57.596 --> 0:22:00.916 so that we know where we've baited. Our biggest struggle 0:22:01.036 --> 0:22:04.396 right now is because there's so many other food sources, 0:22:04.956 --> 0:22:07.836 you know, trying to pull them away from a dumpster 0:22:07.996 --> 0:22:10.996 full of pizza to eat eat one of our beats 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:12.236 is a real challenge. 0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:15.076 I have literally, say, a raccoon in Prospect Park in 0:22:15.116 --> 0:22:16.716 Brooklyn eating a hole slice of. 0:22:16.716 --> 0:22:20.316 It's h yeah. They I mean, they're omnivores, so they're 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:23.636 gonna eat anything you know around. But we have done 0:22:23.676 --> 0:22:28.636 a ton of research in urban areas looking at movement patterns, 0:22:28.836 --> 0:22:30.956 home range sizes, because you have to get them right 0:22:30.996 --> 0:22:32.996 in the right spot for them to even find them. 0:22:33.236 --> 0:22:36.316 So let's talk about the scope of the project now, 0:22:36.396 --> 0:22:39.156 like what is the range of where you where you 0:22:39.196 --> 0:22:39.516 do this. 0:22:39.956 --> 0:22:44.436 We have a band of vaccine distribution zone that goes 0:22:44.476 --> 0:22:48.596 from Maine kind of across the Canada border down to 0:22:48.756 --> 0:22:52.356 Ohio and then pretty much straight down from Ohio to Alabama. 0:22:52.676 --> 0:22:55.876 And that's designed to stop the westward spread of raccoon 0:22:55.956 --> 0:22:58.196 rabies and the northward spread into Canada. 0:22:58.756 --> 0:23:01.716 Oh. Interesting, it's like a like a line of defense. 0:23:01.996 --> 0:23:03.356 Yep, exactly. 0:23:04.116 --> 0:23:07.596 Was that the notion when you started was the issue, like, oh, 0:23:07.716 --> 0:23:13.316 rabies is spreading, let's defend against the spread of rabies. 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:16.116