1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's Jacob. If you want more podcasts about 2 00:00:23,956 --> 00:00:28,036 Speaker 1: creative people solving high stakes technical problems, I've got good 3 00:00:28,076 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 1: news for you. A new season of a show called 4 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 1: Incubation is out now. Incubation is a show about viruses. 5 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 1: I'm the host of the show, and the people I 6 00:00:38,836 --> 00:00:42,476 Speaker 1: interviewed for this season have been full of insight and delight, 7 00:00:42,596 --> 00:00:45,676 Speaker 1: and I have learned a ton. So basically, I think 8 00:00:45,756 --> 00:00:48,596 Speaker 1: if you like What's Your Problem, you will like Incubation. 9 00:00:49,476 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: Here is the first episode of the new season of 10 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: the show, and if you do like it, you can 11 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:59,476 Speaker 1: listen to more episodes wherever you're listening to this. Here's 12 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: the story about rabies. In three sentences, you get bitten 13 00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:06,476 Speaker 1: by a rabbit animal, you'll lose control of your mind, 14 00:01:06,996 --> 00:01:10,956 Speaker 1: and then you die. So it is not surprising that 15 00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: Raby's terrified humanity for thousands of years. Why do you 16 00:01:15,076 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 1: write a book about Raby's, gosh? 17 00:01:17,476 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 2: I have always thought Rabi's was so interesting in terms 18 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:25,716 Speaker 2: of its biology, the way it hijacks the brain to 19 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 2: ensure that it'll continue its own spread, the way it 20 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:32,316 Speaker 2: affects the relationship between people and animals, which since I'm 21 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:34,916 Speaker 2: a veterinarian is pretty central to my life. 22 00:01:35,236 --> 00:01:38,356 Speaker 1: Monica Murphy is a veterinarian and the co author with 23 00:01:38,476 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: Bill Wasick of Rabbit, a cultural History of the world's 24 00:01:42,436 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 1: most diabolical virus. I should mention that Monica also happens 25 00:01:46,876 --> 00:01:48,796 Speaker 1: to be my neighbor and a friend of mine. 26 00:01:48,956 --> 00:01:53,916 Speaker 2: I think the stories that my rabbit Google alert turns 27 00:01:54,036 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 2: up every week. You know, bobcats like coming into a bar, 28 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:02,556 Speaker 2: and like assaulting someone at a pool table, or raccoons 29 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:07,556 Speaker 2: attacking people's trucks. All that stuff is just really interesting 30 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 2: and scary and the stuff of nightmares. But I love 31 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:13,796 Speaker 2: that science has an answer for all of that. 32 00:02:14,876 --> 00:02:18,756 Speaker 1: In the developed world, almost nobody gets rabies anymore. In 33 00:02:18,796 --> 00:02:21,316 Speaker 1: the United States, it's fewer than ten people a year. 34 00:02:21,796 --> 00:02:24,076 Speaker 1: Even our dogs are safe from the disease for the 35 00:02:24,116 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: most part. And the reason for this, the reason we 36 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:29,996 Speaker 1: don't have to worry that every barking dog we see 37 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:32,436 Speaker 1: might bite us and kill us, goes back to one 38 00:02:32,476 --> 00:02:35,156 Speaker 1: of the most important scientists in the history of both 39 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: viruses and vaccines, Louis Pasteur. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this 40 00:02:42,116 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: is Incubation, a show about viruses. We're delighted to be 41 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:48,596 Speaker 1: launching season two today. We have lots more viruses to 42 00:02:48,636 --> 00:02:51,916 Speaker 1: talk about this season, and we're starting with rabies. In 43 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 1: the first half of the show, we'll be talking to 44 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 1: Monica about rabies and the work of Louis Pasteur. In 45 00:02:56,756 --> 00:02:58,316 Speaker 1: the second half of the show, we'll talk to a 46 00:02:58,356 --> 00:03:04,276 Speaker 1: scientist who's fighting rabies in wildlife in a really surprising way. 47 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:10,676 Speaker 1: Talk about rabies. What is rabies? 48 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 2: So, Rabies is an RNA virus. It is special because 49 00:03:18,356 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 2: it is transmitted through bites, primarily unlike the sort of 50 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 2: transmission pattern we see with other viruses. In rabies, at 51 00:03:26,956 --> 00:03:30,716 Speaker 2: the site of the bite, the virus is looking to 52 00:03:30,716 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 2: interact with a nerve, and once it has engaged the nerve, 53 00:03:36,036 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 2: it kind of ratchets its way up the central nervous 54 00:03:38,596 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 2: system from the bite site through peripheral nerves up into 55 00:03:42,716 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 2: the spine, and from the spine up into the brain. 56 00:03:45,516 --> 00:03:49,116 Speaker 2: It takes a while. It's a slow, slow process. 57 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:51,156 Speaker 1: It's like a centimeter a day. 58 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 2: There is a real sort of relationship between how far 59 00:03:56,636 --> 00:03:58,796 Speaker 2: away the bite is from the brain and how long 60 00:03:58,956 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 2: it takes to develop rabies, although it's not strict, and 61 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 2: it does mean that if you're bitten on the face, 62 00:04:07,636 --> 00:04:10,196 Speaker 2: you are likely to come down with rabies faster than 63 00:04:10,196 --> 00:04:13,756 Speaker 2: if you're bitten on the toe, and not every bite 64 00:04:13,756 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 2: from a rabbit animal will result in transmission something like 65 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 2: twenty percent your round number. And once the virus does 66 00:04:23,316 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 2: make it into the brain, you're going to develop symptoms 67 00:04:26,236 --> 00:04:30,436 Speaker 2: of rabies. They're horrible, and then you're going to die. 68 00:04:30,596 --> 00:04:34,916 Speaker 2: It's practically speaking one hundred percent fatal, like really rotten. 69 00:04:35,076 --> 00:04:38,156 Speaker 2: And the way it works too, which is pretty horrifying 70 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:40,636 Speaker 2: if you think about it, is it's hijacking the brain 71 00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 2: to ensure that it's going to be spread to another individual. 72 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 1: And you say, what do you mean, So in especially 73 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:48,436 Speaker 1: in the. 74 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:52,116 Speaker 2: Species it's adapted to, let's say dog rabies. In the dog, 75 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:57,196 Speaker 2: it is going to stimulate parts of the brain that 76 00:04:57,276 --> 00:05:00,876 Speaker 2: kind of rev up that dog's sort of social emotional state, 77 00:05:01,436 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 2: make it much more prone to violence and biting incidents 78 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:09,636 Speaker 2: with other dogs. So that meanwhile it's being creeded in 79 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:12,396 Speaker 2: the saliva. It's really increasing the likelihood that it's going 80 00:05:12,436 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 2: to make it into another dog and continuous life cycle, 81 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:15,916 Speaker 2: which is. 82 00:05:15,796 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 1: Kind of amazing, right, Like it's just a virus, yeah, 83 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:23,156 Speaker 1: And it's essentially evolved to like change the behavior of 84 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:27,156 Speaker 1: this complex mammal to make it bite other mammals so 85 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:29,716 Speaker 1: that the virus will spread. Like that is a wild 86 00:05:29,836 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 1: feet of evolution. 87 00:05:31,156 --> 00:05:37,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's really really scary. In places where humans 88 00:05:37,676 --> 00:05:40,956 Speaker 2: are frequently in contact with rabbit animals, the sort of 89 00:05:41,196 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 2: behavioral changes that occur in the human Rebee's victim are 90 00:05:44,956 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 2: also really messy. You know, human with Raebe's might not 91 00:05:50,836 --> 00:05:52,916 Speaker 2: actively try to bite you, unless they're a little kid. 92 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:56,556 Speaker 2: They might punch you in the nose or just scream 93 00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 2: curses at you. 94 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,476 Speaker 1: In general, people become more hostile. 95 00:06:00,196 --> 00:06:02,476 Speaker 2: More violent, yeah, or sexed up. 96 00:06:02,836 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 1: Uh huh so just like more id Yeah, terrifying. You're 97 00:06:07,396 --> 00:06:10,876 Speaker 1: being attacked by your own rain right, somehow, You're like 98 00:06:11,636 --> 00:06:15,636 Speaker 1: your own thoughts are attacking you. Yeah, yeah, I mean 99 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:19,236 Speaker 1: so you talk with respect to that in the book 100 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 1: about kind of rabies and mythology, right, rabies and were wolves, 101 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 1: rabies and vampires, like, tell me about that. 102 00:06:27,756 --> 00:06:31,276 Speaker 2: There's at least a deep resonance between these stories of 103 00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 2: a sort of contagious you know, contagious zombieism or werewolf 104 00:06:36,556 --> 00:06:40,756 Speaker 2: ism or vampirism where the bite the bite. Yeah, and 105 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:43,316 Speaker 2: there's the association with bats of vampires and. 106 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: Both and both bats and wolves are historical vectors of rabies, 107 00:06:48,276 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 1: just to be clear. So this is kind of rabies. 108 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:58,316 Speaker 1: It's this ancient disease. It is terrifying where crazed animals 109 00:06:58,436 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: bite people and turn people into crazed animals who then die. 110 00:07:02,956 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: Basically the state of play rabies forever. And then onto 111 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 1: the stage of history walks our hero, Louis Pasteur. That's right, 112 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:14,156 Speaker 1: tell me about Pasteur. 113 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:17,076 Speaker 2: Most folks know at least a little bit about Louis 114 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 2: Pastor because he had a long scientific career. He was 115 00:07:21,156 --> 00:07:27,516 Speaker 2: trained as a physicist and chemist, and he grew into 116 00:07:27,796 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 2: more of a microbiological concentration in his work. Along the way, 117 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:35,596 Speaker 2: he established germ theory. 118 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 1: Yes, that people thought was like a crazy idea. And 119 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:43,036 Speaker 1: this is like a mid to late eighteen hundreds, right, 120 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:47,116 Speaker 1: and the world already had the smallpox vaccine at this point. 121 00:07:46,916 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 1: But I do feel like it's worth remembering here that 122 00:07:50,276 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 1: that was sort of this lucky break, right, where like 123 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 1: there just happened to be this mild disease, cowpox, that 124 00:07:55,556 --> 00:08:00,276 Speaker 1: made people immune to this terrible disease to smallpox, and Pasteur, 125 00:08:00,316 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: as you write in the book. He decides that he's 126 00:08:02,796 --> 00:08:06,236 Speaker 1: going to apply this germ theory to vaccines, right, He's 127 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:09,516 Speaker 1: actually going to use science to create a vaccin So 128 00:08:10,356 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: tell us about that. 129 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:15,636 Speaker 2: What Louis Prester sought to do and succeeded in doing 130 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 2: for the first time ever is manipulating microbes to sort 131 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,276 Speaker 2: of move them away from their wild state into an 132 00:08:24,276 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 2: attenuated week in state and induce immunity using. 133 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:32,516 Speaker 1: Those right, So okay, so pasteur. He develops a few 134 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:35,956 Speaker 1: animal vaccines in this way, and then he decides that 135 00:08:36,036 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: the first human vaccine he's going to make is going 136 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: to be a rabies vaccine, you know, a vaccine for 137 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:45,516 Speaker 1: this terrifying disease. So what does he actually have to do? 138 00:08:46,116 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 2: So, because there's no way to grow rabies inside of 139 00:08:49,916 --> 00:08:53,596 Speaker 2: a test tube, he had to maintain a population of 140 00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:54,796 Speaker 2: rabbit animals in his lab. 141 00:08:54,956 --> 00:08:55,516 Speaker 1: Terrifying. 142 00:08:55,916 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 2: Yeah awful, I mean really gruesome and scary for the 143 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:03,276 Speaker 2: people he worked with. They would harvest the saliva and 144 00:09:04,076 --> 00:09:07,276 Speaker 2: introduce it into more dogs or into rabbits. 145 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 1: How do you harvest the salon from a rabid dog 146 00:09:11,156 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 1: really carefully? Yeah? Right, I walked into that. 147 00:09:13,996 --> 00:09:15,596 Speaker 2: But yeah, involving like a high pet. 148 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 1: Oh my god, in the mouth of a rabbit dog. Yeah, yeah, 149 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:23,516 Speaker 1: I'm gonna die. Yeah, I'm afraid. So so you've got 150 00:09:23,516 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 1: step one, find the nasty disease. Step two, seemingly the 151 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:30,436 Speaker 1: harder part, turn that nasty disease into a thing that 152 00:09:30,516 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 1: will induce some unity without causing disease. 153 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:35,516 Speaker 2: Right, they can't see the microbe, they know it's in 154 00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:40,516 Speaker 2: the nervous tissue. So they start dissecting out nervous tissue 155 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 2: from animals with rabies, specifically rabbits, and they aged it. 156 00:09:47,396 --> 00:09:50,116 Speaker 2: They aged the tissue in a sort of desiccating tray 157 00:09:50,716 --> 00:09:55,516 Speaker 2: and determined that with sufficient aging it weakens it. 158 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 1: Just leave it sitting on the shelf for a while. 159 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:02,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, Except they ultimately arrived at a method that was 160 00:10:02,476 --> 00:10:06,636 Speaker 2: a lot more complex. They had a sort of well 161 00:10:06,676 --> 00:10:10,756 Speaker 2: whole sort of assembly line of tissues at various stages 162 00:10:10,796 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 2: of aging. So you know, you've got your your rabbit 163 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:16,116 Speaker 2: spinal quarter over here that's aged fourteen days, and here's 164 00:10:16,116 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 2: a thirteen day one, and okay, et cetera. The ones 165 00:10:19,036 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 2: that are oldest are least virulent. The ones that are 166 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,996 Speaker 2: newest are most virulent and too dangerous to put right 167 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:28,676 Speaker 2: into a person right out of the gate. So they 168 00:10:28,716 --> 00:10:33,156 Speaker 2: start with an injection of the longest aged nervous tissue, 169 00:10:33,236 --> 00:10:36,596 Speaker 2: the weakest, the weakest one, and then over they think 170 00:10:36,636 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 2: of his ten days the initial protocol, they inject thirteen 171 00:10:40,756 --> 00:10:46,676 Speaker 2: injections with progressively stronger that is, newer tissue. 172 00:10:46,276 --> 00:10:49,116 Speaker 1: And so is the basic idea, like the weakest one 173 00:10:49,796 --> 00:10:52,796 Speaker 1: induces some immune response, so that you can then tolerate 174 00:10:52,836 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 1: a slightly stronger one, and you're kind of going up 175 00:10:55,076 --> 00:10:56,796 Speaker 1: a staircase of immunity. 176 00:10:57,116 --> 00:10:59,276 Speaker 2: That's how he developed it. And of course today we 177 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 2: just have a single strength Maybe's vaccine in use. So 178 00:11:03,196 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 2: his method wasn't the only way to induce immunity, but 179 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 2: it's you know, they were dealing with a one hundred 180 00:11:08,196 --> 00:11:11,756 Speaker 2: percent fatal disease, is I think understandably nervous about introducing 181 00:11:11,756 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 2: it into people, and they realized both that they can 182 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:18,516 Speaker 2: they can do pre exposure vaccination so that the dog 183 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:20,556 Speaker 2: can't get infected with Rabi's. 184 00:11:20,716 --> 00:11:23,876 Speaker 1: Uh huh, hold that thought, that's. 185 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 2: Not put into use right away, But then they also 186 00:11:26,636 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 2: can start a series of vaccine after the dog has 187 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 2: been exposed to Raby's and prevent him from coming down 188 00:11:33,676 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 2: with the disease. 189 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:37,396 Speaker 1: So they figure this out, and then we have this 190 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: moment when it's time to try it on a person 191 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:43,636 Speaker 1: for the first time. What is that moment? 192 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:48,956 Speaker 2: So a case was brought to Louis Pester's attention that 193 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 2: seemed sufficiently concerning to take a chance on this vaccine 194 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 2: and involved a young boy who was bitten by the 195 00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 2: grocer's dog who had had undergone a suspicious behavior change 196 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:08,396 Speaker 2: and was marauding the neighborhood. The bites were extensive, and 197 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 2: so that's another potential risk factor for development. 198 00:12:11,276 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 1: Of Rabi's we talked about, meaning he got bit. 199 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 2: Lots of places, you know, lots of places really deeply, 200 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:19,236 Speaker 2: so lots of places where the virus could have encountered 201 00:12:19,236 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 2: a nerve, making it likely that he was going to 202 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:24,676 Speaker 2: come down with rabies at some point. They were very 203 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:30,036 Speaker 2: pessimistic about the boy's chances, and so they sent him 204 00:12:30,076 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 2: to Paris to. 205 00:12:32,196 --> 00:12:35,236 Speaker 1: Louis Pestor's lab, where he had this vaccine that he 206 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:37,196 Speaker 1: had not yet tested on a human being. 207 00:12:37,316 --> 00:12:39,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had been thinking about testing it on himself. 208 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:41,636 Speaker 1: Uh huh, a kind of tradition in science. 209 00:12:41,756 --> 00:12:45,636 Speaker 2: Yes, But before he had a chance to test on himself. 210 00:12:45,676 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 2: He was persuaded by the physicians caring for this boy 211 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 2: that this kid might very likely to die if he 212 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 2: doesn't get the vaccine, and so Pastor went ahead with 213 00:12:56,396 --> 00:12:57,076 Speaker 2: his process. 214 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: So the boy gets this experimental vaccine, and now Pastor 215 00:13:01,476 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 1: has to just wait right wait to see what happened. 216 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:07,236 Speaker 1: So what's going on with Pastor while he's waiting to 217 00:13:07,276 --> 00:13:08,716 Speaker 1: see whether the boy survives? 218 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:16,036 Speaker 2: Well, Pastor was sleepless. He was just in a state 219 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 2: of agonized waiting and was having health problems related to that. 220 00:13:19,596 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 2: He traveled a little bit for his health. Well, he 221 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:23,596 Speaker 2: sort of ticked down the days. 222 00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 1: What happens with the boy? 223 00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,956 Speaker 2: The boy does great. He remains healthy during the ten 224 00:13:29,036 --> 00:13:31,916 Speaker 2: day process where he could see innoculations, and once a 225 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 2: few months had passed, at the point at which you know, 226 00:13:34,716 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 2: it was believed he would have come down with rabies 227 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:39,956 Speaker 2: by now, if not because of the because the bytes, 228 00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 2: perhaps because the vaccine was dangerous, he continued to thrive. 229 00:13:45,116 --> 00:13:49,396 Speaker 1: Okay, so the vaccine works, what like, how does it play? 230 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 2: People were excited around the world. I mean, the vanquishing 231 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:56,076 Speaker 2: of rabies was big news. Just as Pistar had calculated, 232 00:13:57,676 --> 00:14:03,036 Speaker 2: not immediately embraced by everyone. There were physicians everywhere who 233 00:14:03,276 --> 00:14:05,356 Speaker 2: had been following the science and sort of got it 234 00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:07,596 Speaker 2: and were eager to put it to use. 235 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,876 Speaker 1: And in those sort of long run in the you know, 236 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:16,836 Speaker 1: one hundred year arc What what does pastors work mean 237 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 1: both for rabies and for you know, disease research and 238 00:14:21,596 --> 00:14:24,276 Speaker 1: treatment more generally, His lab. 239 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 2: Is often credited with developing the science of immunology and 240 00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:32,916 Speaker 2: furthermore lead the foundations just with the basic idea that, like, 241 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:35,396 Speaker 2: you can take infectious agents and you can figure out 242 00:14:35,396 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 2: a way to make them weaker. That is the basis 243 00:14:39,596 --> 00:14:42,116 Speaker 2: on which all modern vaccine science works. 244 00:14:42,596 --> 00:14:48,356 Speaker 1: So let's talk about rabies today. What is the status 245 00:14:48,396 --> 00:14:49,316 Speaker 1: of rabies today? 246 00:14:49,996 --> 00:14:54,236 Speaker 2: So rabies is still a problem in many parts of 247 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 2: the world who have not yet eliminated dog rabies. But 248 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 2: we're really lucky here that the use of the pre 249 00:15:02,196 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 2: exposure vaccine and dogs eliminated dog rabies. We no longer 250 00:15:07,276 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 2: have to like look askance at our pet dog and 251 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 2: worry that contact with them could kill us. The parts 252 00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:17,516 Speaker 2: of the world where that is not true, where dog 253 00:15:17,556 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 2: rabies is still endemic, places like India and parts of Africa, 254 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:24,996 Speaker 2: there are still a lot of human rabies deaths. I 255 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:29,156 Speaker 2: think the who uses the number sixty thousand rabies deaths 256 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:32,316 Speaker 2: are still happening every year around the world. That numbers 257 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:36,716 Speaker 2: is really contested. It's been a real challenge getting the 258 00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:40,116 Speaker 2: vaccines and the other products that fight rabies to the 259 00:15:40,156 --> 00:15:44,916 Speaker 2: people who need them most. But those products are prohibitively expensive. 260 00:15:45,036 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 2: So raebies is considered a neglected disease by the international 261 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 2: health authorities. But people are still dying of rabies. And 262 00:15:53,516 --> 00:15:56,676 Speaker 2: then in parts of the world like Europe and the 263 00:15:56,756 --> 00:15:59,996 Speaker 2: United States where dog rabies is not the issue, we 264 00:16:00,036 --> 00:16:01,316 Speaker 2: do still have wildlife rabies. 265 00:16:01,876 --> 00:16:05,316 Speaker 1: So like in the US, what wild animals have rabies? 266 00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:13,556 Speaker 2: There's rabies adapted to fox, skunks, raccoons, and a whole 267 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:15,836 Speaker 2: lot of bats in the United States. 268 00:16:16,076 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 1: Right, I read that, like, if you wake up and 269 00:16:18,956 --> 00:16:21,956 Speaker 1: there's a bat in your room, you should probably get 270 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:23,796 Speaker 1: a rabies shot because bats can bite you and you 271 00:16:23,996 --> 00:16:24,796 Speaker 1: don't even know us. 272 00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:27,436 Speaker 2: Yes, there's an argument for getting raby's vaccine if you 273 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:29,356 Speaker 2: wake up in a room with a bat, although you 274 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:30,836 Speaker 2: know you should consult your local. 275 00:16:30,636 --> 00:16:34,396 Speaker 1: Health Stuard writing the book change the way you think 276 00:16:34,436 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 1: about the relationship between humans and animals. 277 00:16:37,876 --> 00:16:40,316 Speaker 2: I do think that there is a way in which 278 00:16:40,836 --> 00:16:44,236 Speaker 2: our relationship with dogs and cats especially, you know, the 279 00:16:44,316 --> 00:16:46,876 Speaker 2: sort of pure sweetness of it that a lot of 280 00:16:46,956 --> 00:16:49,636 Speaker 2: us experience now, like it was it had a darker 281 00:16:49,716 --> 00:16:51,916 Speaker 2: side in the pre vaccine era. 282 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:55,116 Speaker 1: Your dog could turn into a monster and kill you 283 00:16:55,276 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 1: or your child. Yes, that was like a real thing 284 00:16:57,836 --> 00:16:58,956 Speaker 1: that could definitely happen. 285 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 2: It was a real thing, and that was that made 286 00:17:01,396 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 2: it really hard to like love and baby our dogs 287 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:08,236 Speaker 2: in quite the same way as we do today. 288 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:12,396 Speaker 1: So like this modern phenomenon of the dog being, to 289 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: what is arguably a weird extent, a part of the family, 290 00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:18,956 Speaker 1: and I include my own family as you know, in 291 00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 1: that that like, you couldn't really have that without pasteur, 292 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 1: without the rabies vaccine. 293 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:28,196 Speaker 2: It certainly doesn't reach its sort of completion without that. 294 00:17:29,076 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 2: I mean, it's wonderful for those of us who love dogs. 295 00:17:33,196 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 1: Thank you, Monica, That was delightful. 296 00:17:35,276 --> 00:17:36,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks. 297 00:17:38,636 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 1: Monica Murphy is the co author with Bill Wassick of Rabbit, 298 00:17:42,316 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 1: a cultural history of the world's most diabolical virus. Their 299 00:17:46,396 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 1: most recent book is Our Kindred Creatures. How Americans came 300 00:17:50,556 --> 00:17:53,876 Speaker 1: to feel the way they do about animals. We'll be 301 00:17:53,916 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: back in a minute to talk about the surprising way 302 00:17:56,076 --> 00:18:00,236 Speaker 1: that wildlife biologists are fighting rabies in America right now. 303 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: By the early part of the twenty first century, the 304 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:14,596 Speaker 1: rabies vaccine had almost entirely eliminated rabies from people and 305 00:18:14,676 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 1: dogs in the United States, but the disease has persisted 306 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:22,276 Speaker 1: in wild animals. I talked about this with Kathy Nelson 307 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:23,236 Speaker 1: years ago. 308 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 3: When I was in Vermont. We used to operate a 309 00:18:26,156 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 3: rabies hotline in the state. It would get calls in 310 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:30,636 Speaker 3: from the public and we would sometimes go out to 311 00:18:30,676 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 3: investigate them, and we had a skunk that was trying 312 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:38,076 Speaker 3: to bite the gas cap off of a lawnmower. And 313 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 3: they'll just bite anything that's in sight, because that's one 314 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:46,156 Speaker 3: of the fascinating parts about the virus is that it's 315 00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:48,916 Speaker 3: designed to tell the brain to bite things. 316 00:18:49,356 --> 00:18:53,196 Speaker 1: Kathy is the wildlife biologist and the operations supervisor for 317 00:18:53,276 --> 00:18:57,316 Speaker 1: the National Rabies Management Program with the US Department of Agriculture. 318 00:18:57,836 --> 00:19:00,196 Speaker 1: For the past twenty six years, she's been part of 319 00:19:00,196 --> 00:19:03,036 Speaker 1: a federal program that has been fighting rabies in a 320 00:19:03,076 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 1: way that I have to say I found delightful. So 321 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:09,516 Speaker 1: tell me about the first time you went up in 322 00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:13,836 Speaker 1: the air to fling rabies vaccines at the ground. 323 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:18,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, I still remember it was so exciting. You you know, 324 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 3: you help load all these baits onto a plane. You 325 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:24,876 Speaker 3: walk up the little steps of the small plane, you 326 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 3: get in it, someone closes the hatch on you. You know, 327 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:31,596 Speaker 3: the engines start, you take off. You're flying over beautiful 328 00:19:31,796 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 3: terrain and landscape, just beautiful agricultural forested land. And you know, 329 00:19:36,996 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 3: the person up front says, okay, machine on and you know, 330 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 3: baits are going down this little belt and I'm just 331 00:19:42,396 --> 00:19:45,556 Speaker 3: moving them around, looking out the window, seeing moose, deer, 332 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:48,876 Speaker 3: you know, all kinds of wildlife. I couldn't literally could 333 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:50,756 Speaker 3: not believe that I was getting paid to do a 334 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 3: job like this. 335 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:53,716 Speaker 1: What kind of planes were you going up? 336 00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 2: Then? 337 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:56,116 Speaker 3: They have a single wing, two engines. 338 00:19:56,476 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: How many seats? Like, how small is it? 339 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:00,556 Speaker 3: If there were seats in them, there probably would be 340 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:02,956 Speaker 3: it would probably be about a dozen seats. 341 00:20:03,036 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 1: You're basically flying at a cargo van. Yeah, so these 342 00:20:07,356 --> 00:20:12,956 Speaker 1: baits are falling from this. Maybe this is a dumb question, 343 00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:15,116 Speaker 1: but like, is there ever any word they're going to 344 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: hit somebody on the head. 345 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:19,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, not a dumb question at all. Yeah, So 346 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 3: the navigator in the front seat, not the pilot, but 347 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:25,796 Speaker 3: the other person who is a USDA wild Life Services employee. 348 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:28,556 Speaker 3: They have an on off switch. So anytime we're approaching 349 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 3: a house or a road or a major body of water, 350 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:35,076 Speaker 3: that switch goes off so that baits aren't distributed. You know, 351 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:37,276 Speaker 3: over the course of a twenty five year program, we've 352 00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 3: hit a roof for two. But fortunately, you know, once 353 00:20:41,836 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 3: folks learn about our program, they're generally really really accepting 354 00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 3: of it, and you know, they're not too mad. 355 00:20:48,716 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 1: Is it happening like literally today? Is it happening this? 356 00:20:51,996 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking in August of twenty twenty four. 357 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:56,956 Speaker 1: Is there a plane in the air today? 358 00:20:57,316 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 3: There is? Literally I got a text this morning saying 359 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:03,716 Speaker 3: all five aircraft are taxing for run ups and take 360 00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:06,276 Speaker 3: off in Watertown. That's Watertown, New York. 361 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: Tell me about the baits, Like, what's one of look like? 362 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:14,956 Speaker 3: Tastes like, so we use different vaccine types. One of 363 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:17,236 Speaker 3: them looks like kind of like a little ketchup packet 364 00:21:17,516 --> 00:21:20,516 Speaker 3: with a slight oil on the outside and attached to 365 00:21:20,556 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 3: that oil or tiny little fishmeal crumbs. 366 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 1: Fishmeal sounds delicious to a raccoon, I'm sure. 367 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:30,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, So the other company they make a sweet 368 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:34,916 Speaker 3: bait and it's a sugary, sweet like marshmallow kind of 369 00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 3: sweet vanilla based bait. 370 00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:38,836 Speaker 1: Presumably you can't just like fling these things out of 371 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:41,716 Speaker 1: an airplane over a city, right, So how do you 372 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 1: how do you do it? In you know, urban areas. 373 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:47,956 Speaker 3: Primarily we drive around in trucks. You know, someone's driving, 374 00:21:47,996 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 3: another person has the window down in the passenger seat. 375 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 3: They're tossing a couple of baits down. We record the 376 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:57,396 Speaker 3: location of all of these baits with a GPS unit 377 00:21:57,596 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 3: so that we know where we've baited. Our biggest struggle 378 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:04,396 Speaker 3: right now is because there's so many other food sources, 379 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 3: you know, trying to pull them away from a dumpster 380 00:22:07,996 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 3: full of pizza to eat eat one of our beats 381 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:12,236 Speaker 3: is a real challenge. 382 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:15,076 Speaker 1: I have literally, say, a raccoon in Prospect Park in 383 00:22:15,116 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 1: Brooklyn eating a hole slice of. 384 00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:20,316 Speaker 3: It's h yeah. They I mean, they're omnivores, so they're 385 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 3: gonna eat anything you know around. But we have done 386 00:22:23,676 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 3: a ton of research in urban areas looking at movement patterns, 387 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 3: home range sizes, because you have to get them right 388 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:32,996 Speaker 3: in the right spot for them to even find them. 389 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:36,316 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the scope of the project now, 390 00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:39,156 Speaker 1: like what is the range of where you where you 391 00:22:39,196 --> 00:22:39,516 Speaker 1: do this. 392 00:22:39,956 --> 00:22:44,436 Speaker 3: We have a band of vaccine distribution zone that goes 393 00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:48,596 Speaker 3: from Maine kind of across the Canada border down to 394 00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 3: Ohio and then pretty much straight down from Ohio to Alabama. 395 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 3: And that's designed to stop the westward spread of raccoon 396 00:22:55,956 --> 00:22:58,196 Speaker 3: rabies and the northward spread into Canada. 397 00:22:58,756 --> 00:23:01,716 Speaker 1: Oh. Interesting, it's like a like a line of defense. 398 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 3: Yep, exactly. 399 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:07,596 Speaker 1: Was that the notion when you started was the issue, like, oh, 400 00:23:07,716 --> 00:23:13,316 Speaker 1: rabies is spreading, let's defend against the spread of rabies. 401 00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:16,116 Speaker 3: Yes. So the story of raccoon rabies is a really 402 00:23:16,116 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 3: interesting one. Raccoon rabies was first sort of documented in 403 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 3: the late nineteen forties in Florida. But then there were 404 00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:27,876 Speaker 3: some raccoon hunters from West Virginia, Virginia area who wanted 405 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:30,676 Speaker 3: to replenish their raccoon supply. They went down It was 406 00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:33,916 Speaker 3: real commonplace back then to move raccoons around for raccoon hunting, 407 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 3: so they went down south, got some raccoons, released them 408 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 3: into an area on the Virginia West Virginia line and 409 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:45,436 Speaker 3: inevitably released some rabid raccoons without knowing it, and then 410 00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:52,476 Speaker 3: raccoon rabies exploded from there. It reached most Northeastern states 411 00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:53,756 Speaker 3: by the early nineties. 412 00:23:54,436 --> 00:23:59,716 Speaker 1: And is there risk of raccoons passing rabies to humans? Yeah? 413 00:23:59,756 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Over the years, there have been humans that have 414 00:24:02,916 --> 00:24:07,796 Speaker 3: contracted raccoon rabies. Certainly, human health and safety is always paramount. 415 00:24:08,076 --> 00:24:10,996 Speaker 3: Also animal health and safety. You know, every year there's 416 00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 3: there's about three hundred cats in the US that die 417 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:18,956 Speaker 3: from rabi's. There's about fifty dogs that die from rabi's. 418 00:24:19,196 --> 00:24:22,756 Speaker 3: It's a cost benefit sort of program where what it 419 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:26,716 Speaker 3: costs us to manage our program is significantly less than 420 00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:29,676 Speaker 3: what it costs the American public to live with rabies 421 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:33,076 Speaker 3: every year, just in terms of healthcare costs, you know, 422 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 3: public education, post exposure, prophylaxis, all of that adds up 423 00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 3: really fast. 424 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:42,276 Speaker 1: So the program started in the nineties to stop the 425 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 1: spread of raccoon raybis. Has it worked? Did it stop 426 00:24:46,756 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: the spread of raccoon raybis? 427 00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:51,436 Speaker 3: It did. After we distribute baits, about a month after, 428 00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 3: we go back into an area and we use live 429 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:57,716 Speaker 3: traps to catch raccoons. We take a blood sample from them, 430 00:24:57,916 --> 00:25:00,996 Speaker 3: pull a tooth, weigh them, sects them, take some general 431 00:25:01,036 --> 00:25:04,716 Speaker 3: notes on you know, their condition, and that blood sample 432 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:06,556 Speaker 3: get sent off to the lab and that tells us 433 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:10,516 Speaker 3: ultimately whether or not they have antibodies. Again, and the 434 00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:12,996 Speaker 3: tooth gives us their age and also tells us whether 435 00:25:13,116 --> 00:25:15,236 Speaker 3: or not they ate the bait because the bait has 436 00:25:15,316 --> 00:25:19,196 Speaker 3: a biomarker that stains their tooth. So that whole process, 437 00:25:19,236 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 3: that's our monitoring program, along with all the surveillance we 438 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:25,236 Speaker 3: do where we do pick up dead raccoons off the 439 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 3: road and test them for rabies. The Centers for Disease 440 00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 3: Control CDC has documented a seventy seven percent decline in 441 00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 3: raccoons with raccoon variants since our program began in nineteen 442 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:41,716 Speaker 3: ninety seven, so we know it's working. We've made significant 443 00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:45,396 Speaker 3: progress in being able to move that zone to the 444 00:25:45,476 --> 00:25:48,476 Speaker 3: east toward the ocean, which is what you know, our 445 00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:51,956 Speaker 3: ultimate goal is that bait zone of containment, and then 446 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 3: just keep marching it toward the ocean till, you know, 447 00:25:54,636 --> 00:25:57,156 Speaker 3: till you've eliminated the variant. 448 00:25:57,676 --> 00:25:59,716 Speaker 1: Right when you get to the sea, you're done. You're 449 00:25:59,716 --> 00:26:00,876 Speaker 1: like marching to the sea. 450 00:26:01,156 --> 00:26:02,276 Speaker 3: Yep, you're done. 451 00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 1: So, so you've been doing this a long time. You 452 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:09,796 Speaker 1: are a wildlife biologist by training. I'm curious if your 453 00:26:09,836 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 1: career has changed the way you feel about wildlife, about 454 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:16,596 Speaker 1: the relationship between humans and wildlife. 455 00:26:16,876 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I love all wildlife, you know. When 456 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 3: I was in college getting my degree, you know, like 457 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 3: any wildlife professional, I think you dream of, you know, 458 00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:29,036 Speaker 3: working with polar bears or mountain lions or you know 459 00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:33,116 Speaker 3: some some big charismatic megafauna and you know, and I 460 00:26:33,196 --> 00:26:36,796 Speaker 3: landed on raccoons, but I wouldn't change it for anything. 461 00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:40,276 Speaker 3: They're so smart. They have not made a trash can 462 00:26:40,396 --> 00:26:46,036 Speaker 3: yet that they can't get into, or they're just you know, 463 00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 3: if you have ever seen one up close or I 464 00:26:49,636 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 3: you know, I would encourage any listeners if they have 465 00:26:52,036 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 3: the opportunity and they see one dead on the road. 466 00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:57,436 Speaker 3: It sounds crazy, but just stop and look at it. 467 00:26:57,436 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 3: They're fascinating animals. They have little hands, just like we do. 468 00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:06,756 Speaker 3: They have an opposable thumb. Genetically, they're closer in origin 469 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:09,836 Speaker 3: to bears than they are to like cat and dogs 470 00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:13,556 Speaker 3: and those kind of things. So they're just really smart animals. 471 00:27:14,276 --> 00:27:16,876 Speaker 3: They think about what they're doing. We have a National 472 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:20,116 Speaker 3: Wildlife Research Center, and they did a side study where 473 00:27:20,596 --> 00:27:22,436 Speaker 3: they would put a marshmallow in the tub of water 474 00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 3: and the raccoons would learn that all they had to 475 00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:26,796 Speaker 3: do was keep putting more rocks in the water till 476 00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 3: that marshmallow rose to the top and they could reach 477 00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:32,196 Speaker 3: in and eat it. So that's just one example of 478 00:27:32,236 --> 00:27:34,876 Speaker 3: how smart they are and how if they're given enough time, 479 00:27:34,916 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 3: they'll figure something out. 480 00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:38,956 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. It was great 481 00:27:38,956 --> 00:27:39,516 Speaker 1: to speak with you. 482 00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 3: Yeah, you too, Thanks for having me. 483 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 1: Kathy Nelson is a wildlife biologist with the US Department 484 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 1: of Agriculture. Thanks to both my guests today, Kathy Nelson 485 00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:55,356 Speaker 1: and Monica Murphy. Next week on Incubation, I met on 486 00:27:55,396 --> 00:27:57,116 Speaker 1: my mind that I have to go do it, but 487 00:27:57,196 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 1: at the same time I was going to deal with 488 00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:03,836 Speaker 1: the beasts, which means I may not come back home alive. 489 00:28:06,156 --> 00:28:09,676 Speaker 1: Incubation is a co production of Pushkin Industries and Studio 490 00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:13,796 Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia. It's produced by Kate Furby and Brittany Cronin. 491 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:17,076 Speaker 1: The show is edited by Lacey Roberts. It's mastered by 492 00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:21,636 Speaker 1: Sarah Bruguier, fact checking by Joseph Friedman. Our Executive producers 493 00:28:21,676 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: are Lacey Roberts and Matt Romano. I'm Jacob Goldstein. Thanks 494 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:25,716 Speaker 1: for listening.