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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stup

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and it is Social Justice Week

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Speaker 1: on stuff Mom Never Told You, And we're gonna take

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Speaker 1: social justice in a couple of possibly unexpected directions. And

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Speaker 1: today we're going to focus on this thing, this person,

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Speaker 1: this pejorative, the social justice warrior, and what it is,

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Speaker 1: where the term comes from, and what its use and

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Speaker 1: existence says more about social justice in the digital age. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: here's a tip as to how what an old I am. Um.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea. I had no idea. I am

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Speaker 1: familiar with an activist where they're online or you know,

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Speaker 1: on the streets. I am familiar with people online who

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Speaker 1: sort of police the language and imagery that other people

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Speaker 1: use for good or for bad um, you know. And

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Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the idea of like the internet fla activists,

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Speaker 1: somebody who just sits online, clicking like all day and

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually take part in any you know, larger social movement.

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Speaker 1: I'm familiar with all these things. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: that this larger argument about a social justice warrior online

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Speaker 1: being a negative thing was a thing well, and it's

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Speaker 1: good for you to know now, Caroline, because some people

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Speaker 1: might consider you and I and our work with stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told you as social justice warriors, because we

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Speaker 1: talked regularly about things like feminism, privilege, intersectionality, and other

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Speaker 1: so called politically correct topics that some think are really

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Speaker 1: taking all of the fun out of the world. And

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Speaker 1: I first came across this term and was curious about

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Speaker 1: it and wanted to have an excuse to learn more

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Speaker 1: about it, hence podcast topic I Know, I Love our Lives.

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Speaker 1: I first ran across it during the dreaded gamer Gate

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Speaker 1: kurt fuffle online, which I'm not going to take the

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Speaker 1: time to go into listeners. If you haven't heard about it,

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Speaker 1: google it. There is more information than you could ever want.

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Speaker 1: And so, but this was a particular pejorative that was

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Speaker 1: tossed about a lot during gamer Gate, particularly to label

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Speaker 1: their arch social justice warrior, Anita Sarkasian of feminist frequency

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Speaker 1: and very quickly, for those of you not familiar with

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Speaker 1: who Anita Sarkasian is, we've cited her feminist frequency videos

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Speaker 1: a lot on the podcast. A few years ago, her

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Speaker 1: Kickstarter campaign to raise funds for a video series looking

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Speaker 1: at video games through a feminist lens, attracted a lot

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Speaker 1: of negative to engine from certain gamers who were not

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Speaker 1: very happy with the idea of her doing this, of

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Speaker 1: video games changing, etcetera, etcetera. And fast forward and I'm

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Speaker 1: covering over a glossing over a lot of details. I

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Speaker 1: realized we have gamer Gate and this whole battle on

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Speaker 1: the internet, and I would say offline as well, between

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Speaker 1: the supposed social justice warrior figure and people who are

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Speaker 1: kind of grinding their teeth at what the Internet has

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Speaker 1: done to social justice as an idea. So first, let's

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Speaker 1: start with what social justice. No warrior, just social justice

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Speaker 1: is because it's a really basic concept. Yeah. Um. So

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Speaker 1: it's defined by John T. Jost and Aaron C. K

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Speaker 1: in social justice history, Theory and Research, and they lay

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Speaker 1: it out by saying that social justice is a state

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Speaker 1: of affairs in which a the benefits and burdens in

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Speaker 1: society are dispersed in accordance with some allocation principle or

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Speaker 1: set of principles, be procedures, norms, and rules that govern

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Speaker 1: political and other forms of decision making, preserve the basic rights, liberties,

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Speaker 1: and entitlements of individuals and groups. And see human beings

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Speaker 1: are treated with dignity and respect not only by authorities,

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Speaker 1: but also by other relevant social actors, including fellow citizens.

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Speaker 1: And so really, it kind of social justice goes above

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Speaker 1: and beyond just saying, hey, you know, women and men

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Speaker 1: should have equal opportunities, or you know, black people should

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Speaker 1: have the same opportunities as white people. Um, it's it's

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Speaker 1: deeper than that and bigger than that, in that you

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Speaker 1: should have every opportunity to live the same kind of

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Speaker 1: life with the same kind of liberty and other basic

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Speaker 1: human rights, not just American civil rights as everyone else. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's really investigating systems and in stitutions and how

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Speaker 1: those kinds of systems that are in place can often

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Speaker 1: breed inequality in myriad ways. And the concept of justice

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Speaker 1: has been a foundation of Western society. And in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen forties, Jesuit philosopher Luigi Taprelli coined social justice and

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Speaker 1: associated it with the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, and

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Speaker 1: so for a long time it was largely a religious

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Speaker 1: term and was actually integrated into Catholic doctrine, for instance,

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Speaker 1: But then in nineteen seventy one, John Rawls is a

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Speaker 1: theory of justice kind of brought social justice into the

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Speaker 1: secular mainstream of academia, or the academic mainstream. I could

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Speaker 1: also say in another way, Yeah, basically it revolves around

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Speaker 1: the idea that every person has equal rights to the

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Speaker 1: most extensive basic liberty. And it really revolves around, uh

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Speaker 1: he calls a realistically utopian social contract basically that we

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Speaker 1: should follow certain rules for the betterment of everyone. That

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Speaker 1: it's about the protection of equal access to liberties, rights

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Speaker 1: and opportunities. In addition, and this is key also to

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Speaker 1: taking care of the least advantaged members of society, those

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Speaker 1: who lack those primary goods, not fancy pants for instance,

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Speaker 1: as like products goods, we mean those primary goods that

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Speaker 1: ensure that people are free and equal and able to

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Speaker 1: live a complete life. And the Internet and social media

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Speaker 1: more specifically have been incredibly powerful tools for the advancement

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Speaker 1: of social justice today. Now, critics would say that, oh,

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Speaker 1: all your hashtags and Tumblr reblogs amount to nothing in

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Speaker 1: the day to day, But as we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about in more detail in the second half of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: there are some very real world impacts of digital social

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Speaker 1: justice activism, and Jeane Denby, writing over at Politico, has

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Speaker 1: pointed out how social justice today in the digital age,

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Speaker 1: notably isn't so much organized anymore around a central, historically

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Speaker 1: male leader like a Martin Luther King, for instance, And

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Speaker 1: Denbi writes quote, the younger activists are instead inclined to

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Speaker 1: what Jackson called the Fannie Lou Hamer Ella Baker model,

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Speaker 1: an approach that embraces grassroots and in which agency is

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Speaker 1: widely diffused. So we're kind of, I mean, we're sort

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Speaker 1: of owning this on a more individual level, right. And

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Speaker 1: of course Fanniel Hammer and Ella Baker were very famous

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Speaker 1: civil rights activists, and Ellen Baker very famously kind of

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Speaker 1: threw up her hands with the whole cult of personality

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Speaker 1: around Martin Luther King and said, listen, this is not

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Speaker 1: what I signed up for. This is not what this

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Speaker 1: movement should be. And one of the examples that's given

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Speaker 1: in this political story that I had remembered from news

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Speaker 1: coverage months ago is the example of Ferguson Missouri protesters

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Speaker 1: essentially telling Al Sharpton to sit down and shut up,

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Speaker 1: saying we don't need you being the old man leading

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Speaker 1: the movement. We are young people, we have a voice.

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Speaker 1: We can be activists and protest for our rights just

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Speaker 1: as well as as you can. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: those very literal feet on the street were initially organized

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Speaker 1: largely through things like Twitter. And again, we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about this in more detail, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get ahead of myself, so let's now talk about

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Speaker 1: what the social justice warrior is, because to me, this

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Speaker 1: is just a really fascinating example of where we are

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Speaker 1: with this whole thing. Because according to the the esteemed

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Speaker 1: resource Urban dictionary dot com as well as the most

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Speaker 1: excellent resource and I'm not being sarcastic, no, your meme,

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Speaker 1: a social justice warrior is quote a pejorative term for

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Speaker 1: an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on

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Speaker 1: social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or

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Speaker 1: not well thought out way, for the purpose of raising

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Speaker 1: their own personal reputation. And they thrive on sites historically

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Speaker 1: like live journal and today very much so on Tumbler,

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Speaker 1: which is part of why personally I love Tumbler. I

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Speaker 1: love just it's it's earnestness, which can absolutely go awry,

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Speaker 1: as we will discuss. But friends, listeners, countrymen, if you

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Speaker 1: want to see some examples of this social justice warrior

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Speaker 1: ething in quotes sending over to Tumbler, spend some time,

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Speaker 1: go to the go to stuff I've never told you

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Speaker 1: dot tumbler dot com. You'll you'll find your way. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I mean an example of this would be someone

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Speaker 1: in this stereotype of the social justice where you're being

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Speaker 1: a negative. Um. This is someone who maybe isn't super

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Speaker 1: hyper well educated, did on a topic, a social topic,

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Speaker 1: but takes up the mantle, takes up the pitchfork and

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Speaker 1: uh the torch, and leads this fight for you know

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Speaker 1: what they perceived to be the betterment of society, but

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Speaker 1: maybe not with the deep understanding of a topic that

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Speaker 1: they should have well. And it's the assumption too that

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Speaker 1: they exist only online. They're kind of the ultimate SLA

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Speaker 1: activists because not only are they perceived to just be

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Speaker 1: clicking their way to fighting for social justice and not

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Speaker 1: actually doing anything, they are also assumed to be even

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Speaker 1: worse informed. Kind of but again this is also I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is meant to be an insult, So the whole

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Speaker 1: thing is just soaked in snark and and part of

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Speaker 1: that negative stereotype about them being online SLA activists is

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Speaker 1: that not only are they not well informed. According to

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Speaker 1: the stereotype, but that they also pass on unreliable information,

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Speaker 1: sort of preaching at strangers on the internet. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: One rather colorful example of this behavior from Urban Dictionary

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Speaker 1: is that quote a social justice warrior reads an essay

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Speaker 1: about a form of internal misogyny where women and girls

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Speaker 1: insult stereotypical feminine activities and characteristics in order to boost

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Speaker 1: themselves over other women. The social justice warrior absorbs this

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Speaker 1: and later complaints in response to a Huffington's Post article

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Speaker 1: about a ten year old feminist letter because the ten

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Speaker 1: year old called the color pink prissy. So and I

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Speaker 1: mean that that I think ultimately, at least in that example,

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Speaker 1: it gets to this, Uh, this bothersome level of what

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Speaker 1: some would think of as just nitpicking, pointless nitpicking, and

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Speaker 1: in terms in terms of timeline. Uh. It really cropped

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Speaker 1: up or seemed to crop up in the mid two

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Speaker 1: thousand's among the activists live journal community members um, but

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Speaker 1: it also popped up in a lot of online fan communities.

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Speaker 1: For example, there was concern voiced about able is um,

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Speaker 1: which was reflected in uh the My Little Pony character

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Speaker 1: dirty hoofs. And in addition to that, the phrase check

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Speaker 1: your privilege, for instance, is very triggering for a lot

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Speaker 1: of non social justice warrior types. I mean it's it's

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Speaker 1: all of these kinds of check your privilege. Also is

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Speaker 1: a phrase associated commonly with the social justice warrior type

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Speaker 1: that also ruffles a lot of people's feathers, to the

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Speaker 1: point that there are now social justice warrior troll blogs

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Speaker 1: and run the mill trolls who have emerged because the Internet.

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Speaker 1: But now let's introduce the social justice warriors media friendlier

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Speaker 1: and slightly less pejorative cousin SLA activism. Yeah so. According

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Speaker 1: to the Oxford Dictionary, SLA activism is actions performed view

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Speaker 1: the Internet in support of a political or social cause,

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Speaker 1: but regarded as requiring little time or involvement, for example,

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Speaker 1: signing an online petition or joining a campaign group on

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Speaker 1: a social media website. There's also examples where like, you know,

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Speaker 1: a natural disaster strikes and you can text something to

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Speaker 1: the Red Cross and it automatically donates or whatever. It's like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the stereotype being or the assumption being like, oh good,

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Speaker 1: you didn't even bother to read anything or learn anything

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Speaker 1: or actually go help anyone. You just texted someone. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Oxford English Dictionary definition mentions a social media website,

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Speaker 1: and we've already mentioned Tumbler because slack activism and Tumbler

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Speaker 1: go together like peanut butter and jelly. Really, and there

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Speaker 1: have been articles about this about Tumbler and it's it's

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Speaker 1: purpose now in a lot of ways as being this

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Speaker 1: platform for online social justice. Their trend pieces at the

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Speaker 1: New York Times and Forbes magazine that we read in Tumbler,

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Speaker 1: just in case you didn't know, is massive. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're over two million blogs. It's one of the thirty

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Speaker 1: most visited sites online. People spend twenty four billion minutes

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Speaker 1: per month on it, which isn't terribly surprising. Um, I

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Speaker 1: spend too many minutes per months. It's great. I have

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Speaker 1: to make myself stop. I mean the gifts, Caroline, they

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Speaker 1: have all the gifts, so many gifts. Well, and we

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Speaker 1: might love it too because it's really a millennial hub. Great.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's made by and for millennials, because of

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Speaker 1: users are between fifteen and thirty four years old. And importantly,

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Speaker 1: sixty four percent of Tumbler users say they care about

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Speaker 1: social causes and look into them on Tumbler. And this

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Speaker 1: detail was really funny to me um, I think it was.

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Speaker 1: In the New York Times article, they noted that the

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Speaker 1: Romney gaff about binders full of women was apparently a

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Speaker 1: tipping point for tumbler activism because there were Tumbler set

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Speaker 1: up and all of the gifts shared and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of hilarious related memes created and shared on Tumbler. And

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's great when you look at

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Speaker 1: it from that perspective, as far as like, we are

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Speaker 1: not going to let these idiot politicians of whatever party

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Speaker 1: get away with sayings stupid stuff. And yes, do things

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Speaker 1: go overboard frequently, pretty much every every one of those

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Speaker 1: twenty four billion minutes, someone is going overboard with something.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I like that idea that you're not

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Speaker 1: letting people get away with the stupid typical politician stuff. Well,

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Speaker 1: and people take it very seriously. Speaking to The New

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Speaker 1: York Times, Philip Howard, who is the principal investigator at

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Speaker 1: the Digital Activism Research Project at the University of Washington,

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Speaker 1: said quote, Tumbler is kind of like a gateway drug

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Speaker 1: for activism. Once you connect to other people who feel

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Speaker 1: strongly about race or crime or gay marriage, you stay

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Speaker 1: engaged on that one issue area, and similarly, Tila Wolfe,

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Speaker 1: writing over at the Huffington's Post, praises Tumbler and even

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Speaker 1: the loath social justice warrior type for accountability. Yeah, not

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Speaker 1: only accountability, but also incorporating intersectionality. She says that it's

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Speaker 1: not rare to see a lesbian blog take on racial

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Speaker 1: justice in one post and dating advice and another. They

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Speaker 1: celebrate each other often, and they defend each other in

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Speaker 1: a way that almost no other platform can do by

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Speaker 1: policing trolls when they infiltrate the bubble. And what kind

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Speaker 1: of groups and communities are these millennial digital activists advocating for.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're really focused on social justice and discrimination

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Speaker 1: of all stripes, racial equality, police brutality, immigration reforms, the

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Speaker 1: school to prison pipeline, lgbt Q rights, education, inequality, and

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Speaker 1: of course feminism. Feminism, so much feminism, so many amy

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Speaker 1: polar gifts love it. Um. But you know, this online

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Speaker 1: activism also comes with a backlash, and the backlash itself

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Speaker 1: can sometimes be more virulent from social justice warriors themselves.

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Speaker 1: We've experienced this before. I mean, once you dip your

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Speaker 1: toe into this kind of online activism or simply talking

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Speaker 1: about things like feminism, equality, racial injustice, etcetera. You do

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Speaker 1: open yourself up to being called out for not doing

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Speaker 1: it correctly right exactly the whole idea of the bad

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Speaker 1: feminist in our case for instance, about you know, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: you have adopted the title of feminist and the identity

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Speaker 1: of feminists, and so we are holding you to that,

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Speaker 1: and I mean as well as you should. However, what

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Speaker 1: comes along with that, whether it's feminism or or crime

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Speaker 1: and prison reform or whatever. Um, you know, people are

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Speaker 1: people and they're imperfect, and so sometimes they're can be

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Speaker 1: a huge, uh, to use your word, kerfuffle, which I

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Speaker 1: also love, There can be a huge kerfuffle if somebody

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Speaker 1: miss steps, yeah, and it can be really challenging to

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Speaker 1: recover from that too. So for instance, Lacey Green, who

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Speaker 1: is a sex vlogger. She has a fantastic channel on

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Speaker 1: YouTube called sex Plus. She also hosts MTVS Brawler Show

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Speaker 1: on YouTube. She is an out and out feminist. She's

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Speaker 1: sex positive, as the name of her channel implies, and

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Speaker 1: she's been around for a while and a few years

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Speaker 1: ago she came under massive fire from people who would

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Speaker 1: be assumed to be in her corner for the use

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Speaker 1: of her use of tranny in a video, and it

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Speaker 1: was a video that she had done a while ago.

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Speaker 1: And she also offered a very sincere apology saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I was young, I didn't know. I'm sorry, I will

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Speaker 1: you know I would never use this term knowing um,

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Speaker 1: the kind of damage that it can cause. And an

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Speaker 1: apology wasn't enough. I mean, there were national stories about

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Speaker 1: tumbler users sending her death threats, of doxing her, which

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Speaker 1: is the practice of publicly posting someone's whereabouts where they live.

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Speaker 1: She had to move apartments because she was legitimately afraid

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Speaker 1: for her safety. Yeah, and I mean RuPaul's drag Race

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Speaker 1: of all things, has faced similar pressure. There was this

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Speaker 1: online outcry over a competition on the show that was

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Speaker 1: called female or She Mail. And I mean, here's the thing, um,

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Speaker 1: the reactions aren't wrong. I mean, you know, we we

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Speaker 1: should combat harmful, negative, hurtful language about whatever group of

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Speaker 1: people you know fill in the blank here. We should

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Speaker 1: combat negative, awful language. But on the other hand, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these social justice were ears online are getting

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Speaker 1: a negative reputation because what are you doing sending someone

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Speaker 1: death threats? Right? It's it's this question of the level

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Speaker 1: of the mistake, the error, versus the level of response

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Speaker 1: and the social justice warrior insult exists because a lot

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Speaker 1: of times that level of response, sometimes rightfully, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: not so rightfully, as in the case in my opinion

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Speaker 1: with the Lacey Green incident, is far greater and far

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Speaker 1: more punitive than it should be because a lot of

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Speaker 1: times these this group of people might end up using

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Speaker 1: hateful language toward another person to combat hateful language that

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem right. Yeah, it's it's it's funny, not funny, funny,

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Speaker 1: ha ha type of funny. But it is interesting that

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Speaker 1: the same culture of anonymity that allows you know, terrible, hateful, racist,

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Speaker 1: homophobic people to flourish on line also allows um, with

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Speaker 1: the click of a mouse, one of these otherwise well

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Speaker 1: intentioned so called social justice warriors to say hateful, awful

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Speaker 1: things to other people. Yeah, and that's not to say

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Speaker 1: that people shouldn't get angry these kinds of things happening,

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Speaker 1: but there is maybe at the danger with the Internet

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Speaker 1: and social media is just how easy it is to

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Speaker 1: immediately unleashed. And I will say, in our experience with

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Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you. We've been doing this for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and we appreciate being corrected when we

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Speaker 1: say the wrong thing. If we make an unintentionally offensive statement,

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Speaker 1: we want to know. And the way to let us

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Speaker 1: know is not by telling us we're the worst people

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Speaker 1: in the world, but rather just by saying, hey, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I notice that you're saying this. Links are

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Speaker 1: also helpful. Here are resources, here's you know, this might

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Speaker 1: be a better way of phrase seeing this. For instance,

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Speaker 1: a long time ago. Now, we use the term transgendered

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, and that's not an okay term to use.

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Speaker 1: It's transgender, not transgendered, which can be stigmatizing. And someone

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Speaker 1: wrote in so helpfully and gently saying, hey, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you've got a really good intent here,

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Speaker 1: but the delivery a bit off. If you could use

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Speaker 1: this word and not this word, and this is the

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Speaker 1: reason why, and it was fantastic, you know, and going

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Speaker 1: forward transgender done z. Yeah. Well, I think the key

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Speaker 1: there for whoever it is making the misstep and whoever

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Speaker 1: it is offering the correction. I mean, the key there

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Speaker 1: is to just remember the humanity of of everyone, and

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Speaker 1: that it's good that you're fighting for the humanity of

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Speaker 1: one group, but you should remember that there is the

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Speaker 1: humanity of all to take into consideration. Um. And and

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Speaker 1: we're not just saying that because we love kind letters. Um.

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Speaker 1: It is just a helpful reminder about you know, playing

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Speaker 1: on the internet in general. Yeah, I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: a whole constructive criticism thing. And yes to I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make Caroline's point again, Remember the humanity behind the

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Speaker 1: avatars and voices and faces that you see here interact

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Speaker 1: with on the Internet. That's just a good, a good

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Speaker 1: human rule of thumb. But pulling back even from Tumbler

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Speaker 1: and broadening this, some people like Jonathan Shaite famously or

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Speaker 1: infamously depending on your interpretation of the article at New

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Speaker 1: York Magazine, argue that all of this, this whole social

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Speaker 1: justice warrior thing perhaps are hyper focused on feminism, if

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Speaker 1: such a thing could exist, is really just a symptom

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Speaker 1: of what Schait describes as a return of the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote PC or politically correct culture that is replacing reason

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Speaker 1: with sensoriousness and tone policing and shit. Argued in a

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Speaker 1: rather controversial New York Magazine Peace that all of our

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Speaker 1: focus on language and equality and social justice in general

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Speaker 1: is having a chilling effect for communication, that our standards

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Speaker 1: are almost too high at this point and nothing is

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Speaker 1: fun anymore. Yeah, well yeah, and and not that people

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have fun or whatever be allowed to make jokes.

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Speaker 1: But you know, he cites women feminists who, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not just that they're offering lip service, that they

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Speaker 1: are actually active in the feminist community, women who are saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I'm I'm afraid to say anything because

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Speaker 1: everything that comes out of my mouth is misconstrued or

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Speaker 1: is not doing feminism right. Um, and it's exhausting and

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Speaker 1: um So, my my personal take on it is that

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Speaker 1: political correctness is vital to UH learning to accept people

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Speaker 1: who are different from ourselves. We need things like political

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Speaker 1: correctness to a degree because you know, otherwise children will

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Speaker 1: never grow up learning that other people different from themselves

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Speaker 1: are okay, that it's okay to like and appreciate and

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Speaker 1: respect people who are different from you. Um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you need to learn that it's not okay to joke

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Speaker 1: about certain things, that your language can have a big

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Speaker 1: effect and be hurtful. That being said, I think that

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Speaker 1: it can go too far sometimes in terms of what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today, when UH people are so uh,

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Speaker 1: pitchforky and torchy that they won't let their own allies speak. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that is that is a big question, and

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Speaker 1: it's an important question that the piece raises of. Well.

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Speaker 1: Is all of this having a chilling effect on our

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Speaker 1: ability to even have debates and voice opinions in a

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Speaker 1: respectful way? Are we now just so trigger happy but

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Speaker 1: also so fearful of how trigger happy we are that

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Speaker 1: we are kind of losing authenticity? I mean, I personally

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Speaker 1: took issue with the piece. For instance, when Shade gets

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Speaker 1: a little snarky about microaggressions, which we focused on in

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Speaker 1: our podcast on quote unquote exotic women, on exoticizing women

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Speaker 1: of color, like saying, oh you're so exotic? That is

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Speaker 1: an example of a micro aggression. These daily, tiny slights

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Speaker 1: just chip away and remind people that they are the other.

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Speaker 1: And here's a white guy saying, oh your microaggressions or

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Speaker 1: just two PC blah blah blah. Like with that, I

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Speaker 1: just want to say, hey, man, check your privilege. But

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Speaker 1: then what am I doing? I'm being a social justice warrior,

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Speaker 1: But in that case, I don't really mind, Like I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. And when people to me and This

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Speaker 1: is also reflective of spending a lot of time on

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Speaker 1: the stuff I've Never told you YouTube channel and just

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Speaker 1: watching the comments and interacting with commenters there, because it's

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Speaker 1: a whole different world and it's really fascinating also disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people who want nothing to do with your so

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Speaker 1: called political correctness and oh microaggressions are just made up

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Speaker 1: problems to me, says no, I think that you just

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Speaker 1: aren't exercising empathy. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big thing.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's that's the line that you

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Speaker 1: need to walk in terms of having empathy no matter

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Speaker 1: who you are or what side of the fence that

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Speaker 1: you fall on on a certain issue. I think you

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Speaker 1: need to exercise or it would be nice if people

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Speaker 1: would exercise empathy, and like we said, remember the humanity

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Speaker 1: of the person talking, because it's the kind of thing

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Speaker 1: where you know, it's like, okay, well, if people are are,

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Speaker 1: you know, being activists in whatever subculture or group or

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Speaker 1: arena of the world, Um, we should support them for it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And we could sit here and just kind of keep

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Speaker 1: slogging through this whole social justice lay or question, but

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Speaker 1: I think it might be better served as a transition

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Speaker 1: point to maybe a more important question of well, can

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Speaker 1: reblogs on Tumbler change the world? Does any of this

428
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: stuff that we're tweeting about and hashtagging and sharing on Facebook?

429
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: Does it really matter? Any answer is yes and no,

430
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that when we come

431
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: right back from a quick break and now back to

432
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: the show. Okay, so does retweeting a feminist activists tweet

433
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: help anyone? Does reblogging a post about racism help anyone?

434
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: As Kristen said, yes or no, and we shouldn't necessarily

435
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: knock it over PBS media shift. They were saying that

436
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: while SELA activists are often maligned, they do play an

437
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: integral role in raising awareness, a truly powerful agent for

438
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: change that makes a strong and commitment to act in

439
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: whatever manner necessary to achieve the desired result. So basically, like,

440
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: it's great that you're reblogging that thing about the racist

441
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: thing on the news, or you know the feminist who's

442
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: being outspoken, but if you're going to be a true

443
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: activist about things beyond just the reblogging and the retweeting,

444
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: maybe you know it's time to leave your house and

445
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: actually sign a petition or volunteer for something. Yeah, I mean,

446
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: but but the first step along the way, someone like

447
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: Lieba Rubinstein, whose Tumblers director of outreach, she would say,

448
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: the first step to doing that is raising the awareness

449
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: to an issue. So she told Forbes magazine quote, it

450
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it inherently creates activists just because you

451
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: reach one million people with a YouTube video, but it

452
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: helps increase the chances of converting a greater number of

453
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: those people up that ladder of engagement. And I will say,

454
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: Caroline to loot of our own horn. That makes me

455
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: my heart swell ten tho times over. We hear and

456
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: have heard from men and women and girls and boys,

457
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: not so many boys, but girls about how listening to

458
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: the podcast, watching the videos has made them aware of feminism.

459
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: They identify as feminists because of stuff I've never told you.

460
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: It's awareness is the first step. Yeah, and I mean

461
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: we have. This is something that we've seen And I

462
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: say we meaning you know, all of us, the general

463
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: we that we've seen worldwide playing a role in social

464
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: movements for a long time. I mean before we even

465
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: had Tumbler, before Tumbler was even a twinkle in the

466
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: eye of the internet. Um, we had text message coordinated protests.

467
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: For instance, in two thousand one, Philippine and President Joseph

468
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: Estrada was ousted thanks to a text campaign that helped

469
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: force him out of office. Yeah. Clay Squirky wrote all

470
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: about this in a really detailed article over at Foreign

471
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: Paul Let's see, and described Estrata as quote the first

472
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: time that social media had helped force out a national leader.

473
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: And essentially, Scurkey argues that social media and even text

474
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: messages aren't necessarily going to be the change obviously, but

475
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: they've been instrumental as the coordinators of change. And so similarly,

476
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: in two thousand four, we have another text messaging campaign

477
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: that comes to the rescue to oust Spanish Prime Minister

478
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: Jose Maria Asnar. And then in two thousand nine, the

479
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: Moldova Communist Party lost power after demonstrations coordinated via text

480
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 1: message and social media. But not every social media and

481
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: text message coordinated campaign is a success, because there have

482
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: been failures of attempted social media coordinated revolutions that were

483
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: then simply met by government crackdowns. Yeah, and Screwky writes, though,

484
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: that social media have become coordinating tools for near really

485
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: all of the world's political movements. I mean, it's not

486
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: just people in countries with restricted access to the Internet

487
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: or facing a whole lot of censorship issues. You know,

488
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: there have been so many recent examples, and again Ferguson

489
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: is one of them, of people using social media to

490
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: really sort of galvanize a movement. So Jane Denby at Politico,

491
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: who cited earlier, calls all of this speaking of Ferguson,

492
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: a new civil rights movement that was first stoked in

493
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: by the Trayvon Martin shooting and then later by George

494
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: Zimmerman's acquitted George Zimmerman being the man who shot and

495
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: killed Trayvon Martin and Denbi rights quote. This re energized

496
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: millennial movement, which will make itself felt all the more

497
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: in differs from its half century old civil rights era

498
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: forbear in a number of important ways. One, it is

499
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: driven and far more by social media and hashtags than

500
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: marches and open air rallies. So going back to that

501
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: question of can read blogs change the world, well in

502
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: this example, yeah, So consider the recent hashtag black Lives Matter.

503
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: This was started by Petrucci Cohler's opal To Metti and

504
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: Alicia Garza, and it went viral, it inspired all sorts

505
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: of demonstrations and protests, and it's a hashtag that I

506
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: think will be around for a long time. Um So,

507
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: then when we move up to August, with Michael Brown

508
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, and later the grand jury decision

509
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: to not try Darren Wilson, the police officer who shot

510
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: and killed him, we see the revival of the hashtag

511
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: black Lives Matter with Dian's and a Black Friday boycott

512
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: in November, and I mean, that's pretty incredible to think

513
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: that that hashtag, which was created a couple of years ago,

514
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: is still being used now. When you think about the

515
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: nature of the Internet and how ephemeral everything is. One

516
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: thing is in one day and out the next, well,

517
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's it's so easy to dismiss,

518
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: for instance, uh, pictures posted on Tumbler of dieans or

519
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: or any of these boycotts or marches or anything. It's

520
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: very easy to dismiss that as that's just you know,

521
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: dumb millennials. You know, they're not doing anything real or

522
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: they're not active being activists in any way that it

523
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: will be effective. But I think the very important thing

524
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: about things like this, and with Tumbler specifically, is that

525
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, for so long in our modern media, UM,

526
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: we have only been able to see and interact with

527
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: the things that the network news has presented to us

528
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: as worthy of being news. And typically that's just like

529
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: you know what the president then said that day, or

530
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: you know what your mayor said that day, And Tumbler

531
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: is sort of a way of presenting an entirely different

532
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: side to the news and to modern events. UM. It's

533
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: a way of seeing yourself and your own community and

534
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: your own interests reflected. And so then when other people

535
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: see that, even if they are dismissive, they can maybe

536
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: eventually start to say, like, huh, maybe there's something to

537
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: this well. And to that very point, Tumbler created news

538
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: not too long ago on March sixth, two thousand fifteen,

539
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: with hashtag blackout Day, which began with a Tumbler user

540
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: and then the hashtag ended up trending on Twitter and

541
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: it was a grassroots recognition of people of color on

542
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: social media. And the Tumbler user, expect the Greatest, was

543
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 1: a person who thought this up. And it was such

544
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: a simple but powerful concept because this user was like,

545
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: you know what, there are so many white people on

546
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 1: my dashboard. I would really love to see more people

547
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: who look like me. So he said, hey, people of color,

548
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: on March six, post yourselfies, reblog images of famous black

549
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: people like whomever you respect. Let's flood social media with

550
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: people who look like us, essentially, And it worked and

551
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: it went viral, and you have ABC News and all

552
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: sorts of other national media outlets covering it and then

553
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 1: starting conversations among people who aren't on Tumblr, like, oh,

554
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: what does this blackout day? What does that mean? At

555
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: the very least, that's what you get. At the very least,

556
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: you get people going, what is that? Is that? What

557
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: is this dumb thing? Because at least once they asked

558
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: the question, they might follow through to find out what

559
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: it is, and who knows, maybe they will say, oh wow,

560
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: I had no idea. And also too, when it comes

561
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: to using social media to influence the news cycle, it's

562
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: incredible to see from two thousand twelve with the Trayvon

563
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: Martin shooting, how it took a long time for that

564
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: to become national news compared to just two years later

565
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: with Michael Brown shooting. The news of it went out

566
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: on Twitter from people in Ferguson, they're witnessing the entire

567
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: thing going down. It hit the news cycle almost immediately. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

568
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: But alongside all of the racial issues that are brought

569
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: to the forefront thanks to social media and you know,

570
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: so called social justice warriors on social media sites, you know,

571
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: we also have issues in and around feminism and using

572
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: that online and hashtag activism to bring these issues to

573
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: the forefront. That's right. In our podcast on Women on Twitter,

574
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: we talked about how Mickey Kendall's hashtag solidarity is for

575
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: white women started unadmittedly difficult but necessary conversation about race

576
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: and feminism and the ten and see for white feminists

577
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: to dominate the mainstream conversations about gender equality to the

578
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: detriment of the needs and perspectives of women of color. Yeah,

579
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: and so like it or not. As Tula Wolf noted

580
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: over at Huffington's post, these people, these people that we

581
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: refer to as social justice warriors, will keep you on

582
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: your toes. You might not think that you're being hurtful

583
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: or harmful, or maybe you are trying to be hurtful

584
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 1: or harmful, depending on what the situation is. But it's

585
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,959
Speaker 1: sort of a community. It sort of circles the wagons

586
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: around whatever the community and question is to point at

587
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: it and say this is wrong, this is not allowed. Yeah,

588
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: it will sniff out your heterocentrist, ablest classes, racists, eccentric

589
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: language from a mile away. Yeah, exactly. And so, for instance,

590
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: in addition to solidarity is for white women, we also

591
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: got the hashtag yes all women in response to the

592
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: hashtag of not all men, which of course itself was

593
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: in response to very disturbed individual Elliott Rogers misogynistic murder spree.

594
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: And the effect of that hashtag guess all women brought

595
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: viral attention to rape culture. I feel like that that

596
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: hashtag was so instrumental in bringing a very like in

597
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: group term like rape culture into broader conversations. And we've

598
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: also though on the flip side of this talk before

599
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: about how feminist twitter can get ugly on itself. We cited,

600
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: for instance, Jonathan Shade's piece in New York Magazine that

601
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: quoted a former editor over at Feminist NG who said, quote,

602
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,439
Speaker 1: everyone is so scared to speak right now. He also

603
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: quoted Hanna Rosen, who is the author of the End

604
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 1: of Men, who is a feminist, but she has no

605
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: interest in engaging with feminist Twitter because as they will pounds. Yeah. Yeah.

606
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: She basically voiced the same thing that the feministic editor

607
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: did by saying, you know, it's exhausting and anything I

608
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: say is going to be misinterpreted by someone, and I

609
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: just don't want to deal with it. Well, in the

610
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: promotion of her book, I forget the exact promotional hashtag

611
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: they use, but it was something like the end of

612
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. It was something suggesting that there was no

613
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: more need for feminism and as you can imagine, that

614
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 1: rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Yeah, exactly. Um. Well,

615
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: if we look at the journal Feminist Media Studies, they

616
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: devoted part of their issue number two of Feminism, Hashtag

617
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: and Violence against Women and Girls to this whole issue

618
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: of feminist hashtag and social justice for instance, um with

619
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: their examination of hashtags and raising awareness about violence against

620
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: women and girls. Susan Barrage and Laura Portwood spacer right.

621
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: The essays in the journal were really there to emphasize

622
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: the potential of feminist hashtags to expose the pervasiveness of

623
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: gendered violence, creating a space for women and girls to

624
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: share their own experiences and through doing so, challenge common

625
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: sense understandings of this abuse and promote gendered solidarity. But

626
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: they go on to say, quote at the same time,

627
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: these scholars are sensitive to the potential dangers of these

628
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: hashtag campaigns in oversimplifying complex issues, as well as the

629
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: threats of gendered violence that occur within online spaces themselves.

630
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: Still in a nutshell, social media and hashtags and sala activism, activism,

631
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: whatever you wanna call it is not going to be

632
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: the answer, right, of course, it's not going to be

633
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 1: the answer, but it's a powerful tool. It can be

634
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 1: a powerful tool. Although uh Time columnist Sarah Miller did

635
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: wonder this past Oscar season whether or not some social

636
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: media activist efforts would just be better spent elsewhere. Yeah,

637
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I get Sarah Miller's frustration. She was talking

638
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: about to Ask Her More campaign, which was basically an

639
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: online effort to get uh quote unquote journalists at award

640
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 1: shows to ask female celebrities, directors, actresses, whoever. Um, ask

641
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: her more about the work she's done, her her cares

642
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: in life, not just like who she's wearing. Um. I

643
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 1: I love the idea of ask her more because I

644
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna buy givon she down, So it's fine,

645
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: I don't care. Um. But Miller's argument was like, this

646
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: is ridiculous, Like we need to be focusing our feminist

647
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: energies on other things. We don't need to be telling

648
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: celebrities that they need to describe their vision for world

649
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: peace in six syllables. Um. You know, maybe I just

650
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: want to watch an Awards show and let my brain

651
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: drip out my ears and hear what kind of dress

652
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: someone's wearing so that that designer can get recognition. And

653
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: my question is, like, do you really care about the

654
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: designer and the people who made the dress getting recognition?

655
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: But it does exemplify the social justice warrior be in

656
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people's bonnets, which is, can you just relax?

657
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: Can you just let the oscars be the oscars and

658
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 1: let a red carpet be a red carpet and like

659
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: have women on parade every now and then and stop

660
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: taking everything so seriously no, I mean I'm saying I

661
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: get those comments a lot on YouTube, and that is

662
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: something that I think about because sometimes I do catch

663
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: myself in my own day to day life getting really

664
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: stirred up and really emotional an upset about certain things,

665
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: and so I do wonder sometimes like well, maybe I

666
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: should just relax, But then as soon as I think

667
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: it out relaxing, then it just feels lazy and I

668
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: remember that there's work to be done. So I don't know.

669
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: I honestly I don't know. I mean I think that

670
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: we should relax in the sense of relax how quickly

671
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: we might respond to something and how violently, whether with

672
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 1: words or fists, that we respond to something, or relax

673
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: how quickly we are to assume that the other person

674
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: meant harm, or that they are willfully ignorant, or that

675
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: they are incapable of change, right, which is again going

676
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: back to the example of the person who gently corrected

677
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: our stigmatizing language. Yes, yes, that person would had faith

678
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: that we could and would change, and we did. But

679
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned earlier in the podcast, like way

680
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: earlier that UM, the whole social justice online sell activism

681
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: movement was way more fragmented UM and way more spread

682
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: out than any other offline movements we've had in history,

683
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: which typically were led by one charismatic individual, typically a man.

684
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: And so it's almost like when you're telling when you're

685
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 1: telling UH, someone who's an online social justice warrior to

686
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: shut up and relax. Chances are that person is perhaps

687
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: a woman or a person of color, um, a person

688
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: who is just different in some way than the norm

689
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: of a white, heterosexual, sys gender male. And so I'm

690
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: not saying that we should always jump to being offended,

691
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: but I am saying that it perhaps the fact that

692
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: certain people who have not historically been given the chance

693
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: to speak, uh, is that's freaking people out exactly. I

694
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: think that's everything. I think that disenfranchised and marginalized groups

695
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: have platforms in a voice and a reach like never before.

696
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: And so of course there's this term to just dismiss it,

697
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: to just with just the flick of a wrist say no. Well,

698
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 1: especially if you yourself, whoever you are, if you yourself

699
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: consider yourself to be a liberal minded individual who's accepting

700
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: and not racist and whatever. If if you say something,

701
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: not being willfully ignorant, but just saying something and someone

702
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: corrects you and says you know you're wrong, you shouldn't

703
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: say this, you might get offended, especially if you are

704
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: a white heterosexual sis gender man who is not used

705
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: to being wrong um and being corrected. I mean a

706
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: lot of people, it's very easy to be sensitive to

707
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: any type of criticism or critique or correction. Um. And

708
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: so for a lot of people, they are starting to

709
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable because they are being corrected and things like

710
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: privilege are being pointed out. Yeah, I mean, and that

711
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: also applies to this gender, heterosexual, white female podcasters. It

712
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: doesn't need we are not we are not above the frame. No. Well,

713
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm really curious for listeners to weigh in on this,

714
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: because if you spend a lot of time on the Internet,

715
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: like we do, chances are you run across this. But

716
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that it's just limited to

717
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: the Internet. I think it is reflective of a real

718
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: world cultural shift that's happening. I don't want to call

719
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: the culture war, but I think that this these online conversations, campaigns, activisms,

720
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: activism has if anything, established awareness and sparked offline conversations.

721
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 1: And so what do we think about all of this?

722
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: Do you just you know, flick it away, considering it

723
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: all just PC nonsense, or do you think that, yes,

724
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: this kind of social justice in digital platforms can in

725
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: fact change the world. Let us tell your thoughts, Mom

726
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address,

727
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 1: and Hey, if you want to utilize your social media power,

728
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages

729
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to

730
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: share with you right now. I have a letter here

731
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: about our Women in Construction episode from a listener who

732
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: would like to remain anonymous. She says, thank you so

733
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: much for doing the Women in Construction podcast. I was

734
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: part of that tiny two point six percent of women

735
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: in construction, and you did such a great job discussing

736
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: the realities of being a woman in this industry. I

737
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: worked in construction management, which means I wasn't always on

738
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: the construction site, but I still have enough stories to

739
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: last all lifetime. I have a background in engineering, and

740
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: you asked if there was any preparation or warning in

741
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: school about the realities of the industry. I can't speak

742
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: for every school, but my fairly progressive school definitely did

743
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: not prepare me for what I was getting into. I

744
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: had the idea that I would feel like wonder woman.

745
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: I'd go in work hard, breakdown gender barriers. Wow. I disappointed.

746
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: Although I do think I was part of a slow change.

747
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: The reality is having to bite your tongue more often

748
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,320
Speaker 1: than not because you run the risk of getting fired.

749
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: The overall feeling I found in the industry was that

750
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: there is no problem. They genuinely believe the only reason

751
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: women aren't in construction is because they don't want to

752
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: do construction. I even had a hiring manager tell me

753
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: that women at the company have not faced any sexism

754
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: at work. Meanwhile, my two female coworkers and I had

755
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: exchanged all sorts of countless stories. It's hard, there's no

756
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: question about it, but that being said, there are ways

757
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: to deal with it in groups for women in the

758
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: industry to find support and help. I truly hope to

759
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,439
Speaker 1: see the industry grow and change slowly. I know it will.

760
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: Thanks again for covering this topic and for all of

761
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm a longtime fan and really love what

762
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: you did with the show. I've learned so much from

763
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: you ladies over the years. So I've got to let

764
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: her here from Mackenzie about our podcast on women in

765
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: architect Sure she writes first and foremost, I am a

766
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: huge fan of your podcast. I listened to it every

767
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: day on my way to work, and that's why I

768
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: was so excited to see an episode on women in architecture.

769
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm a twenty year old architectural technologist living in Vancouver, Canada.

770
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: Even in my short time in the field, I've experienced

771
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 1: the role of sexism in the workplace. My office is male,

772
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: and out of the three women in the workplace, there's

773
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,439
Speaker 1: an interior designer and another tech like myself. I've never

774
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: worked with a registered female architect. Being a young woman

775
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,879
Speaker 1: in an office full of middle aged men, I feel

776
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: like I'm treated differently than my male colleagues at the

777
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: same age and education. Soon after I started, I was

778
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: asked to learn the receptionist desk so I would be

779
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 1: able to use the phone system if the receptionist had

780
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: to go out. This slightly agitated me, or they asking

781
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: me this because I was a junior, or because I

782
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: was the female junior. I'm on the fence about going

783
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: back to school to become an architect. I don't think

784
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people know how much commitment it is.

785
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: In Canada. You need a bachelor degree, which is four years,

786
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: Then you need a master's which could be two to

787
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: three years, and then you need three years of internship

788
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: hours which you get paid very poorly, and then there's

789
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,439
Speaker 1: a series of oral and written exams. So all in all,

790
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: that's ten years of schooling you have to commit to,

791
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: and ten years is if you don't take time off

792
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: to work in the field for more experience. I think

793
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: a lot of women go into school thinking they will

794
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: become architects, but women simply don't finish because life gets

795
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: in the way. By the time I'm thirty, I'd like

796
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: to be thinking of getting married and having children. That's

797
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: why I don't think I could commit to being an architect.

798
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: Another thing I wanted to mention is that not all

799
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: architects design buildings. A lot of what architecture involves is

800
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: coordination with different engineers and working with construction managers and contractors.

801
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: You have to have a very strong personality to solve

802
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: some of the situations. With the more rough around the

803
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: edges contractors, I could easily see female project architects being

804
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: harassed more than males on the construction site. As far

805
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: as design wise, women have leaned more toward interior design

806
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: as a career than architecture. People see interior design as

807
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: a softer, less important job. Women can't build things, but

808
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: they can decorate. In conclusion, and I do think women

809
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: are making headway in architecture, and it's just about a

810
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: matter of time before it's even so. Thanks Mackenzie, and

811
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at

812
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address and

813
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well

814
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources,

815
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot

816
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

817
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: Doesn't how stuff works dot com.