WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 30 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.520 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.840 here a podcast about things falling apart um and and 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.120 some other stuff from time to time. I'm Robert Evans UM, 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.720 and today we are going to chat once again with 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:45.159 Romeo Kokyatski. UM. Romeo, you are a Ukrainian journalist and 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.360 an anarchist. We chatted with you right before the Russian 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:54.280 expanded invasion of Ukraine, UM, and now we're we're talking 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.600 with you again now that the war has entered. UM 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.639 certainly a different phase as as Russia and troops pull 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:02.720 out of the north of the country, pull out from 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:08.240 around Kiev and focus their remaining on blowed up forces 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.920 to the fight around the dawn boss. Um, how are 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.920 you doing, Romeo? Yeah, thanks for having me on UM. 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.520 It's been it's been tough. We'll get into this a 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.600 little later on, but obviously learning that um, a town 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.000 not far from your own as undergone a genocide is 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:34.080 not the easiest thing to live through. Yeah, and knowing 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.920 that that is not even the worst of the atrocities 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.399 that we're going to discover in the coming weeks and 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.679 months is is put the put the mental strain. Let 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:45.760 me tell you, Yeah, I don't think. I think, thankfully, 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.280 very few people understand the experience of learning that a 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:55.080 genocide has occurred next door essentially, um. And Yeah, what 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.760 you wanted to talk about specifically, obviously, when when we 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.000 talk about the actor genocide, we're talking about the mass 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.200 occur in Buka. Um An exact count Bucha, sorry, an 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.040 exact death count is not available right now, but I 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.519 think at least two civilians killed is the last number 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.600 I've gotten. Yeah, that's the last, like confirmed number. But 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.680 obviously a lot of these people um have been tossed 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.880 into mass graves, They're lying around in various residences. It's 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.200 it's gonna it's gonna be a long time before um, yeah, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.120 able to to come to any kind of accurate count 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:35.520 of how many residents were killed. Yeah, and for a 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.280 brief overview of just kind of like what has been 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.639 seen in the executions there, we have civilians often hands 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.639 tied behind their backs, so they were clearly restrained, executed 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.239 after having been restrained. Some of them were just left 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.440 in the streets, some of them dumped into mass graves. UH. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.960 Satellite imagery from before the town was liberated by Ukrainian 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.720 forces shows corpses lying in the street in the same 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.720 position they were discovered in when the Ukrainian military moved in, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:10.079 which is as solid open source confirmation of the genocide 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:14.120 as you're going to get with any kind of genocide. UM. 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.640 So that's that's the situation. Obviously, the usual crew of 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:23.359 bad actors and UM Russia defenders have kind of slid 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.359 into the most common allegation I'm seeing at least online 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.560 as people saying it must have been as Off battalion 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:31.520 that did it, even though they're four dred and forty 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:37.000 miles away, um encircled by the Russian army. UM. Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.840 but you know it's the it's the you're seeing like 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.280 a lot of kind of bad open source responses to 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.840 with people being like, well, why would the bodies. If 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:47.880 you look at the satellite imagery whire the body so 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.560 evenly spaced, which is just like they're not. It's it's 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.880 it's just like people people recognizing that if you like 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.160 circle ship on a grainy image and and tweet about 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.839 how it's suspicious, you'll provide enough plausible deniability for other 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.240 people to to doubt a genocide. You know, it's it's 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.280 it's the same ship we saw with Syria. There was 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:12.040 some disgusting denial where someone was claiming that they could 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.000 see bodies being carted away um by the Ukrainians for 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:20.240 you know, investigation and reburial, um, that the corpses were 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.440 quote unquote moving. You can see you can see this 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.040 guy's hand moved. Yeah, you're looking at dead bodies by there. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:30.680 And by the way, when you move dead bodies, they 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:35.200 move like pieces of the shock. It's and you're driving 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.240 over a street that has been churned over by tank 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:43.000 treads and you're you're transporting human corpses. Those corpses are 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:48.200 gonna get jostled around. Yeah, it's uh, definitely. I don't know, 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.680 you know, I don't want to be labor on this 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:52.360 too much because I think we've talked a lot about 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:55.039 how this this disanfoe works. I think what you came 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.520 on specifically to talk about and what's really worth getting 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:03.440 into in some detail is um, this manifesto that was 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.239 published on r i A, which is a large Russian 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:12.680 government controlled uh news agency. Um, it's this. I don't 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:17.640 know how. It's fascist manifest You can find it if 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.480 you if you just google uh r i A publishes 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.839 Russian fascist manifesto. The New Voice of Ukraine has a 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:28.120 translation of it. Up um if you want to read 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:34.839 this thing, but it's it's pretty pretty striking um and UM. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.240 The kind of focus of this is on justifying the 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:45.960 Denazification campaign. Um. And it opens. One of the opening 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.880 lines is when the theory that people are good the 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.839 government is bad no longer holds true. Admitting this fact 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.720 is the basis of the Denazification party, all of its 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.479 associated measures, and the fact itself is the subject matter 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.480 of the policy at This came out out within a 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.719 day or two of the discovering of the elements of 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:11.720 genocide and and um, which is yeah, is pretty predominant. 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:17.120 I I would say, like, pretty noteworthy. Yeah. So I 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.159 had to translate this and let me tell you it 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.760 took UM a pretty big, pretty big tone in my 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.400 sanity for a couple of days here. Um, And I'm 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:32.040 gonna be honest as Ukrainian reading this, this was If 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.840 you have ever I don't know if some of your 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.640 listeners will may have like been at protests UM counter 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.599 protests against UM fascist or far right demonstrators where they're 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:44.960 chanting that they will murder you. This is exactly how 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.360 I felt. This is this is nothing less than someone 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.960 reaching through the screen and telling me that they want 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.760 to kill me and everyone I love personally, UM, because 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.480 I am, because I want their independence. So there's this 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:04.560 the kind of theme of this article. The term that 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:09.040 they use most often is de nassification, and I think 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:15.000 it really UM, it is incredibly vital to explain just 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:20.280 what this denotification means because normally, like you and I, Robert, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.800 I think we both call ourselves anti fascists and we 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:28.040 are pretty anti Nazi. Um that I think that's a 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.400 that's a pretty mainstream position to do not like Nazis 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.240 and be anti Nazi. So the Russians used this term 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.800 denotification to someone that has no context, no idea of 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:41.360 what it refers to. Beyond the obvious meaning. Get rid 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:46.120 of Nazis sounds like something even laudable. The problem is 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.160 what the Russians mean by Nazis is not what you 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.040 and I, or any other normal stay in rational human 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:57.120 being would consider a Nazi. This article does not justify 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.200 uh it's it's thesis that Ukrainians are Nazis at all. 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:05.000 In fact, um there are. There is a whole series 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:10.360 of paragraphs um that states that Ukraine does not meet 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.440 like any criteria of being Nazi. UM too. To quote 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.920 a bit from this um, as horrible as it is, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:21.560 um it reads, there isn't, after all, a single important 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.560 Nazi party, no fewer, no fully racist laws, only their 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.040 curl tailed variants in the form of oppressions against the 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.160 mere language. As a result, there is no opposition in 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.679 resistance to the regime. A particular feature of Nazified Ukraine 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.040 is it's a morphosis eminent and ambivalentness, which allows for 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.760 the masking of Nazism as a desire to move towards 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:47.840 a quote unquote independent and quote unquote European, uh Western 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.640 and pro American path of development, in reality towards degradation, 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.200 while insisting that quote unquote Ukraine doesn't have any Nazism, 0:08:55.400 --> 0:09:01.359 only private and singular excesses. So the like itself, it's 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.880 that Ukraine is not Nazi in any way that we 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.800 would recognize the term. Yeah, and it's it's basically saying 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:15.200 that like it's Nazi, it's not. There's no fewer and 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.959 there's no race like racialist laws. Um. But the thing 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.560 that makes it a Nazi is want and closer union 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:25.400 with Europe as opposed to Russia. Um. And of course 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.240 it it notes like the so called laws against the 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.439 Russian language, which I'm not aware of anything happening. I 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.480 think what they're referring to is like attempts to encourage 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.000 the Ukrainian language in Ukraine. Yea, there are no laws 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.760 or sanctions the Russian language in Ukraine. There never have been. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.960 And in fact, when I was there, one of the 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.080 difficulties I had with my interpreter is he he only 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.920 spoke Ukrainian. And so you can, obviously you can speak 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.800 with people who speak Russian if you speak Ukrainian, but 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.640 it's a little bit like confusing, and most people we 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.080 were talking to spoke Shian natively. Like it's the the 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.760 idea that it's somehow like been that the Russian language 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:10.280 has been somehow like attacked in the Ukraine. UM feels 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.280 very silly as someone who like repeatedly encountered the Russian 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:19.959 language while in Ukraine. Yeah, it's it's it's simply propaganda. Um. 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:27.199 And the fact is that the Russians define Ukrainian Nazism 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.400 not as having Nazi values or a Nazi party or 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.080 anything that we would associate with Nazism, but in fact 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.120 simply the simply that Ukraine wants to be independent of Russia. 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.240 That in itself is proof positive to the Russians of 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:49.320 our Nazism and nothing else. So when when people hear 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:53.840 this word denotification, what they don't mean getting rid of 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.080 like far right elements in Ukraine. No, they mean being 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.120 anti Russian or being were simply wanting to be separate 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:07.040 from Russia. Is itself a far right position in Russia's eyes, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.280 and that is enough to call for our, um pretty 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:15.600 much complete extermination. Yeah. And you know, to kind of 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:17.840 go into this article a little more, one of the 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:22.240 things that I find interesting about it is this line here. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.440 The fact that the Ukrainian electorate shows Poroshenko's piece Porschenko 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.360 is the president before Zelinski, and Zelinski's piece should not 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.680 be misled. Um, I think they probably meant misread. Maybe 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.280 Ukrainians are quite satisfied with the shortest path to piece 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.839 through blitzkrieg, which the last two Ukrainian presidents transparently hinted 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.920 at when they were elected. I how I don't understand 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.080 how anything Ukraine has done could be considered a blitzkrieg. 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.640 Um since they never invaded Russian territory and in fact 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:55.760 lost territory to Russia in two thousand fourteen. Um, that's 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.520 a weird definition of a blitzkrieg. I'm wondering if you 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.120 can shed some light on what they might even in 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:05.160 on that, or is it just just complete fallacy. What 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:12.200 they mean is basically that Ukraine in so within Russian 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.400 probably and you have to understand, we're talking about a 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:20.880 completely separate universe, a different reality. So the way every 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.120 every single aspect of what you and I know does 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.760 does not apply, Like they don't live in our consensus whatsoever. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.000 So what they mean is that Ukraine blitz creaged the 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:36.840 elimination of Russian speakers and um, pro Russian culture and 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.240 pro Russian sentiments in Ukraine during the year of my 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:45.720 don Um in Russia's In Russia's reality, Ukraine carried out 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:50.400 a genocide against these people in Ukraine, in everywhere except 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:56.440 the puppet authorities of the Luhanskan Danetsk People's Republics. So basically, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.240 Ukraine carried out this books creed. The reason Ukraine is 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:05.679 so quote unquote Nazified is because in the this Russian 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.480 alternative reality, UH, Ukraine genocide and all of the Russians, 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.199 all the ethnic Russians, the writing speakers, and even with 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.920 pro Russian sentiments. And this is what they mean when 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:20.880 they refer to this UH, this blitz creed that they 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:25.120 that well um Ukraine went through they quickly killed everyone 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:30.800 who was pro Us and now UH and now everyone else, 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.960 everyone who has left is a Nazi um like the 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.480 The latter part of this paragraph really makes that clear. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.800 They say it was this method of quote unquote appeasement 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.600 of internal anti fascists through total terror that was used 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.679 in Odessa, hark evening for tost Mariable and other Russian cities. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.640 So not only are are these Ukrainian cities Russian, this 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.640 quote unquote appeasement that they're referring to is a sarcastic 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:59.560 way of referring to their um supposed genocide of these people, 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:03.520 of of Russian speakers, of um ethnic Russians and Ukraine. Again, 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:09.520 that is not only untrue, it's also ludicrous because everyone 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:15.200 in Ukraine is has some Russian ancestry, because it's a 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.440 mixed country. Everyone is everything, Like the entire Eastern European 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.600 region is not some ethnic enclave. It is in fact 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:27.240 a melting pot um which so Union worked very hard 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.840 to change. One of the things I kept encountering in 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.040 f Difka, which was is still under fire today and 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.680 was under fire in two thousand fourteen, for an idea 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.520 of like how long chunks of the country have been 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.440 in Like now it's spread all over Ukraine, but parts 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.760 of Ukraine have been under continuous artillery fire for nearly 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.120 a decade. Um. But I kept encountering these old ladies 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.960 who had grown up in the Soviet Union, and we're saying, like, um, 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:55.000 I don't understand why they're doing this. They they like, 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.560 I've always considered myself Russian and and now this is happening, 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.600 like I don't understand it. I don't understand it. It It 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.720 doesn't make any sense. And in terms of like the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.800 denialism that we've been seeing lately. UM. One of the 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.200 reasons I argued for because we had a debate in 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.200 the UM in the editor's room at Envy when we 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.840 were UM, when we were looking at this piece, we 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.080 had a debate over where whether we're going to translate 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:22.720 end UM publish it. And I pushed really hard UM 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.560 to do so because I think there is no greater 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:31.360 way to push back these UM claims of genocide denial 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.200 that we we are seeing popping up UM across various 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.280 parts of UM of the Western laughter and the anti 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.800 imperialist left or whatever you call it UM. And I 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.760 think there's no better way to push back against the 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.800 arguments than to present the Russians own words to them. Yeah, 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:58.800 like this is such an openly genocidal fascist piece UM 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:04.600 using PU the pure logic of of quite like of 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:10.560 just fascism. That is impossible I think to really UM 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.520 say that this is like a fabrication or the like 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.320 the Russians aren't like this, Well, they're telling you in 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.120 their own words, this is what they're like. Yeah, And 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.120 I think the like putting focus on this isn't this 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.160 wasn't written by you know, some um like far right 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.640 extremists for some minor like online site that has like 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.240 an audience of two thousand, like Russian Fascist whatever. Now, 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.440 this was a major article published in one of the 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:47.200 Russian main media outlets by a respected political scientist within Russia. Yeah, 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.120 and that's that's the thing that I think really needs 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.480 to be gotten across is the degree to which I 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.840 think there's a desire to believe that the Putin regime 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.680 is like on its last legs, and that most people 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:09.960 recognize how fucked up the political status quo is there, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:14.040 and that support for the regime is like pretty minimal 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:19.119 as a result. Um. And I I'm not I'm not 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.800 seeing the evidence of that. And when I talked to 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.439 I just we just did an interview with the Russian 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.680 anarchist who his attitude was very much that like, Yeah, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:31.000 most people broadly by the propaganda. Um, it is not 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.720 like the it's possible that's going to change over time, 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.520 because again, the severe casualties Russia has taken have not 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:44.560 really had a chance to totally filter out socially into Russia. 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.000 I think people are still becoming aware of the scale 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.480 of losses, and it's going to take some time for 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:54.600 that knowledge to to release circulate. UM. But I think 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.480 this article represents how a very large chunk of the 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:04.240 Russian populace are are seeing what's going on in Ukraine. UM. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.240 And that's problematic for a number of reasons. For one thing, 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.320 with this kind of logic that we see in this article, 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.560 there's not much you can't justify, right, Like, there's very 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:20.720 little that uh if you if people believe what's being 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.200 said in this article, there's very little you couldn't do. 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:26.040 There's very few weapons you couldn't deploy, right. That's one 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.399 of the arguments this is making is that you have 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:33.240 to exact soldiers who have been notified, um have to 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:38.200 be wiped out completely. Um. There's there's no soldiers who 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.960 have been notified. Anyone who has ever taken arms against Russia, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:48.200 and anyone who has ever supported anyone who has taken 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.320 arms against Russia, which at the current moment is over 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.960 of the Ukrainian population must and I quote from this 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.960 must be liquidated. Yeah, not not um. It makes an 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:05.680 argument a little higher up that these people can't be 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.680 re educated, so they can't even be sent to camps. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.359 Two goologs. UM. They can't be made to do forced labor. 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.639 They must be liquidated, eliminated. Uh. And this is nothing 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.000 less than simply saying, well, we are going to have 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.520 to kill the grand majority of Ukrainians. Yeah, And I 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:32.840 don't I don't know what more like you can for 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:37.600 the folks who are kind of on the because there's 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.479 there's this tendency I think within the chunks of the 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.000 left that are not they haven't lost their minds, they're not. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.520 They don't buy the Russian propaganda. They do see what's 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.080 happening in Ukraine is terrible, they see the war is terrible, 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.359 but they still have this attitude of well, the best 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.879 thing is to end it quickly, and like, you know, 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.080 we should, we should push for some sort of negotiation. 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:02.840 And first off, I'm saying, like, whatever the Ukraine as 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.639 a country decides is acceptable to them in terms of peace. 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:08.840 I'm not going to argue against one way or the 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.800 other because that's not my place. But um, I don't 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:17.960 I don't see how you can negotiate with people who 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.600 have this attitude towards you, um and and towards the 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.080 existence of your people. Like I really don't see long 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:29.320 term where there's kind of an option for peace for 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.560 Ukraine with this kind of rhetoric existing in Russia outside 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:39.960 of smashing the Russian military to the greatest extent possible. Yeah, 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.560 I mean I feel the same way, and that is 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:47.399 very terrifying thoughts. It's not crazy, like, yeah, because my 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.879 general attitude towards wars is that it's best when they're over. Yeah, 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.720 exactly right. I have no I have no strong desire 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:00.480 to see to like bomb Russian cities. Well, I mean, okay, 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.840 that's that's that's a little bit of lie. But no one, 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.880 no one, no one can blame someone living in Ukraine 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.760 right now for feeling a bit of a desire for 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.080 for vengeance, even though I don't think that's particularly likely 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:18.919 to help matters. Yeah, probably not. And I generally don't 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:24.960 want to, um see like a world war in Europe 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.159 or anything like that. But I I really when I 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:32.200 rack my brains of what can be done, like how 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:37.760 you can live with like the these people aren't you know, 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.080 thousands of climbers away or on the other side of 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:45.440 the continent. They're literally the neighboring state. Um And I 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.800 I just I don't have any answers of how Ukraine 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.520 is supposed to move forward while Russia remains in its 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:56.040 current configuration. Like, I don't see a future, um, a 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.879 coexistence of any kind that's possible when they are literal 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.920 calling for our extermination. I I think that's also kind 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:08.560 of the question of how do we have There's this 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.760 this phrase that you heard a lot, particularly kind of 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.119 in the in the post World War two period of 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.000 like the need for rules based international order, and the 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.800 United States was as much apart as anyone of making 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:23.600 sure that that was never anything more than a than 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.600 a friendly lie. Right. You had a couple of brief 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.640 moments here and there where it was attempted to be imposed, 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:35.160 um Yugoslavia or well, you know, Bosnia being kind of 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.919 a clear example, but it was always you know, in 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.720 between a bunch of illegal wars on behalf of a 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.920 bunch of different states, and illegal fundings of of insurgent 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:47.520 groups and all sorts of sketchy stuff and kind of culminated. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.960 And I think you can we keep going back to Syria, 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.960 which is an important part of like what allowed what's 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.960 happening in Ukraine to happen. But the invasion of Iraq 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.280 by the United States was another one. Right, this idea 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.240 that like and and the things that like torture and 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.640 stuff by US force. Is this this the fact? I mean, 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:09.880 that's what the Russian diplomats. Yeah, that's what Russian diplomats 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.920 always bring up in UM, in the U N and 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.679 in other like international bodies. Whenever they're pressed on this 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:20.120 question human rights, they always invariably pointed the US and say, well, 0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:23.520 the US did this, this, and this and the rock. Um, 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:26.000 how come the US gets to do whatever it wants 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.560 with no pushback? And the implication being that Russia also 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:31.880 believes it should be able to do whatever it wants 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:35.840 with no pushback. And obviously like the fact that the 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.639 United States committed war crimes does not mean that Russia 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.320 should get to commit war crimes. But from like a 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.600 point of view of like, if we're looking at things 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.199 from an international perspective, Yeah, if the United States is 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:51.600 going to do ship like that, well other countries are 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:53.919 going to do ship like that and see it as 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.360 like well there there isn't like why why are we 0:23:56.400 --> 0:24:00.160 bound by an international order but not you and I. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.200 One of the things that's so frightening about the kind 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:06.000 of rhetoric coming out of Russia. Is that it it 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.919 shows those kind of dreams that people had in the 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.639 wake of World War Two, which again there was no 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.359 like Golden Age after World War Two. The United States 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.240 went right to regime change in Africa and Latin America, 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.439 all sorts of fucked up ship. But it shows that, 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:26.679 like any kind of international hope of something like that 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.960 ever existing has has fallen apart. We are we are 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.720 if people want something like that. And I do believe 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.360 that some sort of rules based international order, and I'm 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:41.639 not talking about like you and global government. I'm talking 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.800 about broad ranging international agreements that for example, you don't 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:50.160 get to fire chemical weapons at civilians, you know, Like, um, 0:24:50.240 --> 0:24:52.840 I think that would be nice, a nice thing to exist. 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:55.800 And I think part of what we're seeing here is 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.280 that any chance of having that has kind of been 0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:03.000 reset to zero. Um. Not that it was ever a reality, 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:07.560 but I think the kind of I think the rhetoric 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:12.960 around the fact that ever existed has completely dissolved now. Um. 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:17.720 And maybe that's not like particularly bad, because it's bad 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.680 for people to believe something exists when it doesn't, because 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:25.200 that that international order never did really exist, But um, 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:28.760 I I think what we're seeing here is kind of 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:34.440 the final collapse of any belief that, uh, there's an 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:41.480 inner there are international standards of morality and behavior for states. Yeah, absolutely, 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:46.200 I mean there's a lot of reasons why UM. Ukraine's 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:48.359 president Lanski gets a lot of props from from a 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:50.560 lot of people right now. But one of the things 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.680 that has absolutely I personally rate as absolutely as the 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.720 kids say based in recent days was the Lensky's addressed 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:01.120 um in from the u N where he called basically cowards. 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.520 If they don't kick Russia out and they can't even 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:09.879 enforce their main um, their main goal, which is peace, um, 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:14.399 then they should dissolve. And honestly, I don't see any 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:19.360 any issues with that argument. That seemed yeah, completely rational. 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:22.480 What what is the point of this organization if it 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:26.359 cannot even do something as simple or not simple, but 0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:29.800 if it cannot do something as straightforward as punish the 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.960 perpetrators of John side, Yeah, what what exactly is the 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:35.280 point of it? That's exactly kind of where I am, 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:37.320 which is like, why are we like right now we 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:41.119 have this issue where like after Russian evidence of Russian 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:44.639 genocide was uncovered, Russia is set to the the un 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:47.879 the Human rights uh what you call it? Um that 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.679 they are, Yeah, herman rights canceled that they're a permanent 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:56.040 member of and like like basically filed a complaint against 0:26:56.160 --> 0:27:00.959 Ukraine for doing the genocide that they did. Um. And uh, 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:03.960 you know there's talk about what we could dissolve and 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:06.359 reform the Council without Russia, we could kick it. Like 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:10.040 there's there's options, I guess in a parliamentary sense, but 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:13.760 broadly speaking, when one of the people sitting on that 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:17.919 council has is in the process of carrying out a 0:27:17.920 --> 0:27:20.920 genocide which they are justifying in this way through their 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:24.800 through their media organs, what is the fucking point of 0:27:24.880 --> 0:27:27.640 having that? It's just like it was like the night 0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:31.440 of the invasion, I sat and I watched everything happening 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:36.119 in the U n UM and my my thought the 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:40.360 whole time, as like every all of these international representatives 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:42.639 were like, you can't do this, right, you have to stop, 0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:45.440 you have to stop like try like begging for there 0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:47.320 to be some sort of peace in Russia. Just going 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:49.560 ahead and doing it. It was like you know what 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:53.199 we what we saw, UM it not dissimilar to some 0:27:53.280 --> 0:27:54.560 of the ship that happened and then lead it to 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:56.760 the Iraq War, where it was like, okay, well a 0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:58.760 lot of people agree this is fucked up. I guess 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:03.520 that doesn't mean anything. Um, And it didn't mean anything. Uh, 0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:09.080 and uh that's why have it? Like why why pretend 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:15.040 that it means anything? UM? I guess that's where I am. 0:28:15.080 --> 0:28:18.400 I mean, it's it's the same um to draw parallel 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:23.320 to to US politics. It's it's the same as UM. 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:27.480 Like the Democratic Party during the Trump era saying, oh, 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:30.840 Mr President, you can't do all of these obviously legal 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:34.639 things you're doing. That's bad. You should stop. Like here's 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:37.359 here investigations that prove that you're doing the bad things. 0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:43.840 Please stop, Mr President, with all violated the moluments clause, okay, Like, okay, 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.320 are you gonna enforce it? Are enforce any of this? 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:52.600 Like without enforcement, all of this condemnation is literally just noise. 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:55.840 It doesn't react. It doesn't result in anything in the 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:59.600 material world that will have an effect in curtailing or 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:02.880 risk ree this behavior now or in the future. And 0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:06.760 if you cannot do that, then what I like to 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:11.240 call it, what you have the job program for yuppies? Yeah? Yes, 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:15.200 in international rules based order, I when I was in 0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:19.680 Iraq during the war against Ices and hanging out primarily 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:22.800 with not just Kurds, but like Kurds who were natives 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:26.680 of mosle Um when we were kind of back in 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:30.560 her bill away from the front. The number one organization, 0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:34.040 the number one group that they complained about, was not 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:36.120 the United States, nor was said isis. It was the 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.320 United Nations, who were generally viewed to be a bunch 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:41.840 of you like, they saw them the way like people 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:43.600 see like trust fund kids. They were a bunch of 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:47.600 rich assholes tooling around in land rovers, staying in nice 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:52.120 hotels and burning money on fucking bullshit. Um. And and 0:29:52.160 --> 0:29:55.960 that's I don't know. It's so the idea of the 0:29:56.040 --> 0:29:58.520 United Nations as what it was supposed to be, which 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:02.160 is like, yeah, we should things like what the Nazis 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:04.719 did shouldn't be allowed to get nearly as far as 0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:06.800 they did. And perhaps if all of the Nations were 0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.240 sitting together and saying, well, that's bad, right, we don't 0:30:09.280 --> 0:30:12.160 want people doing that, um, maybe some of these bad 0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:15.840 things would stop happening. Um. And what it has turned 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:19.200 into is, yeah, it's a jobs program for fucking yuppies. 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:22.280 It's it's not that there aren't individual things within the 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:24.280 U N I've certainly been to a lot of places, 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:27.960 particularly refugee camps, that had infrastructure because of u n 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.480 h c R, even though that's a very flawed organization. UM. 0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:34.000 I can't deny that a lot of people got access 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:37.640 to basic survival gear that was necessary because of u 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:44.040 n h c R UM United Nations Humanitarian Crisis Relief UM. 0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:49.160 But overall it's just it's nothing, you know, there was 0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:51.400 There's a really I think my favorite piece of graffiti 0:30:51.440 --> 0:30:56.920 ever UM, which was spotted in UM Sarajevo during the 0:30:56.920 --> 0:31:02.120 Serbian encirclement and and shelley of that city. UM. And 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.640 it's uh spray painting of you in in the style 0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:10.480 of the UN's logo, and then underneath it United Nothing UM. 0:31:10.560 --> 0:31:12.560 And And that was the attitude of a lot of 0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:15.080 people in the city as they like watched the UN 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:18.680 bicker over what was to be done about the fact 0:31:18.760 --> 0:31:21.920 that an army had surrounded a city full of civilians 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:25.360 and was pounding the high rise apartment buildings with artillery 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:29.400 and tank cannons all day long. Man, that sure sounds 0:31:29.800 --> 0:31:32.760 real familiar. It's a good thing that never happened again. 0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:39.320 I don't know what that sounds, um, but I mean, yeah, 0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:43.200 it's it's anyway, Um, Romeo said anything else you wanted 0:31:43.200 --> 0:31:46.720 to get through today as we stare at this thing, 0:31:48.120 --> 0:31:52.800 this bad thing. Honestly, I just as much as normally 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.680 I would encourage people to not pollute their brains with 0:31:56.680 --> 0:32:01.680 with thatcher stage prop in this case, I would recommend 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:06.360 people read through um my translation at the New Voice. 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.480 If you don't trust me for whatever reason, you can 0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:13.400 pull up the original and Google translated, machine translate it yourself. 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:18.280 It'll be a serviceable translation, and just read it for yourself. Um. 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:23.600 Because I want to make it very clear that Russia 0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:30.600 is no longer simply like some hyper capitalist, kleptocratic oligarch state. 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:35.560 It is literally fascist. It is using fascist rhetoric and 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:39.680 fascist techniques to eliminate an ethnic group it considers to 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:43.800 be inferior to its own um in order to take 0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:47.440 its land and resources for itself. It is. There is 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:52.920 no greater distillation of fascism on this planet right now 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:57.600 than the Russian Federation. Yeah, they're doing and I really 0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:00.840 would like people to understand, especially if you consider yourself 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:05.360 anti imperialist or anti fascist or anything. The Russian Federation 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:09.760 is a fascist government, um, on the level of Nazi Germany. 0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:14.680 And it is attempting to uh to literally this article 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:20.560 is called is called what shall we do with the Ukrainians? Yeah, Um, 0:33:21.640 --> 0:33:29.080 the Ukrainian the Ukrainian question, you know. UM. And this 0:33:29.200 --> 0:33:35.920 article is proposing a solution to the Ukrainian question. So 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:39.200 again UM. Mostly that's what I would like to leave 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:44.240 your listeners, Robert with an understanding. UM. And again you 0:33:44.240 --> 0:33:45.760 don't have to trust me, you can go and read 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:51.200 this for yourself. UM. That the the greatest fascist threat 0:33:51.200 --> 0:33:53.920 on this planet right now is not the United States 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:57.200 of America, as shocking as that may sound, UM, and 0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.520 as hard as that maybe to buy, it is the 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:05.160 Russian Federation, and it is right now trying to genocide 0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:10.400 the country and the people that I belong to. Yeah. UM, 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:14.000 So I don't know, Maybe make a note of that, folks, 0:34:15.080 --> 0:34:20.800 put that in here in your mental rolodex. Um. It's uh, 0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:23.239 I don't know. I I I hope you continue to 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:27.480 stay safe. I'm glad your area of Ukraine is at 0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:31.240 least less under under the gun than it was earlier 0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:36.920 in this war. UM. I'm glad broadly speaking that the 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:40.040 Russian Federation has bitten off a hell of a lot 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:43.000 more than they were able to chew um, and now 0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:46.960 are doing their chewing without nearly as many teeth. Um 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:50.840 And yeah, I hope that process continues, and I hope 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.879 the siege of Mariopol is lifted. Yeah, thanks a lot. 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:58.880 I really appreciate um letting letting me make an appearance, 0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:03.480 and um going through this with me, and uh yeah, 0:35:03.680 --> 0:35:06.960 I think we share the same hopes here. Yeah, all right, everybody, 0:35:07.040 --> 0:35:31.799 that's the episode. Go go away. That's a horrible way 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:34.640 to begin. It could happen here. That's how we start 0:35:34.640 --> 0:35:40.279 a podcast. I'm Robert Evans podcast, Things falling apart, put 0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:43.480 them back together, all that good stuff. Co hosts here 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:48.080 today Garrison Davis, our our our buddy, Chris and of 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:56.600 course the great Saint Andrew Andrews. Take it away. Good morning, 0:35:56.760 --> 0:35:59.440 and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:03.880 and good night. Speaking of the Truman Show, solid reference, 0:36:03.920 --> 0:36:07.200 well done, Thank you. I wanted to spend today's episode 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.040 discussing a concept that has been brought up in the 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:13.880 work of James C. Scott and Christopher Ryan. That's the 0:36:13.960 --> 0:36:19.719 idea of human domestication, and before people start clicking off, 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:22.560 I'm not going to go out and prim or anything, 0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:25.680 you know, It's just I think it's an interesting thing 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:30.319 to think about. I think that Scott explores it in 0:36:30.360 --> 0:36:34.160 a very interesting way in chapter two of Against the 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:39.160 Green and so relating as I guess to the Truman 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:41.840 Show because something, why did I bring it up? Truman 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:46.759 lives in a suburban picket fans American dream dome ove, 0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.920 a world that's meant to keep him, you know, contined 0:36:50.080 --> 0:36:53.640 and content and ignorant about the fact that he's on 0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:57.479 a TV show. Truman has trapped in this wound that 0:36:57.560 --> 0:37:00.760 he kind of conformed too, but he kind of escape 0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:04.319 at least initially, and so you could tell that, you know, 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:06.359 there's something wrong, and he probably felt that way for 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:08.440 a long time. It's only over the course of the 0:37:08.520 --> 0:37:11.840 movie that he develops a sufficient awareness of his condition 0:37:12.280 --> 0:37:18.719 to leave home and become a true man, Thank you 0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:29.680 very much. Alright, alright, good episode. Um, and humans like 0:37:30.040 --> 0:37:35.120 Truman have been stewards and cultivators of the natural environment 0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.840 for a long time, right, one of the only creatures 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:41.120 who do that. By the way, I see other people 0:37:41.120 --> 0:37:43.520 who see who kind of like adopt this assumption that 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:47.440 he wants just like imposing our will on the environment 0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:51.120 that is otherwise unscathed by our presence and all that. 0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:53.759 And I mean, yeah, we do a lot of very 0:37:53.880 --> 0:37:58.080 very terrible stuff the environment, but a lot of our 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:01.280 actions are also beneficial. And we have the only creatures 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:07.080 to shape and sometimes harm and sometimes benefit the natural environment. 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:11.799 I mean beavers, elephants, prairie dogs, bees, and to mine, 0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:14.880 not to mention the networks of trees and other plants 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:19.320 that all manipulate the environments to soothe them and there 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:24.320 comfort and their survival. You know, but there's no nature 0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:28.000 as we know it, as we see it um that 0:38:28.120 --> 0:38:32.040 sort of untouched wild idea without the activities of humans. 0:38:32.280 --> 0:38:35.920 You know, humans when planting seeds and tubers, shaping the 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:41.360 evolution of many plants species, burning and desirable flora, weeding, 0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:49.799 our competition, pruning, thinning, trimming, transplanting, mulching, relocating, bark, ringing, compassing, 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:53.279 watering and frutilizing. And for animals, you know, we have 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:57.520 hunted even selectively, you know, spared females or reproductive age, 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:01.840 or hunted based on life cycles or fish selectively managed 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:06.600 streams to promote spawning and shellfish beds, you know, transplanted 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:09.719 the eggs and young of birds and fish, and even 0:39:09.840 --> 0:39:13.040 raised juveniles in some cases. That's kind of how we 0:39:13.120 --> 0:39:15.200 ended up domesticating a lot of animals. And I'm gonna 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:20.440 get into that. So through fire, through plow, through hunting, 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:25.120 through a whole array of different activities, humans have domesticated 0:39:25.400 --> 0:39:30.920 whole environments, you know, well before you know the full 0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:34.200 the full society is based on, you know, fully domesticated 0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:38.000 wheat and barley and goats and sheep. The spectrum of 0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:43.120 subsistence moods that we have utilized, whether we're hunting, foraging, pastoralism, 0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:47.239 or farming, have existed and complemented each other, you know, 0:39:47.320 --> 0:39:50.640 sort of harmony millennia and I mean those of you 0:39:50.640 --> 0:39:53.239 who have read Don't Have Everything. You kind of see 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:57.799 that picture coming into shape as it progressed through the book. 0:39:58.440 --> 0:40:01.920 But of course James C. Scott also discussed it years 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.560 before in Against the Green so as he says, Enter 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:12.279 the Domas, just as we transformed our landscapes, we transformed ourselves. 0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:17.680 The Domas was a unique and unprecedented concentration of tilled fields, 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:22.520 seed and green stores, people and domestigated animals and hangers 0:40:22.560 --> 0:40:26.680 on like mice and rats and covids, all co evolving 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:30.239 with consequences no one could have possibly foreseen. You know, 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:33.360 dogs and pigs and cats, all of them. Their entire 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:37.799 evolution was shaped by their relation to this dom and 0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:44.680 humans are not the exception. Of course, there's some animals 0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.480 that easier to domesticate than others, which is why you 0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:53.680 don't see people commonly riding or hooding zebras and gazelle um. 0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:57.359 They will make the best cattle or ride um and 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:02.359 probably knock your brains out if you tried, So it's 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:05.400 probably best to stick to the ones that we have 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:10.440 sort of who evolved with, like you know, llamas and 0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:14.600 goats and sheep and pigs and over generations, you see 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:19.000 the domesticated creatures, unlike their wild counterparts, develop a level 0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:23.640 of submissiveness and a decreased awareness of their surroundings. Right, 0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:28.920 So that emotional dampening is basically a condition of life 0:41:28.920 --> 0:41:32.680 because when you're in that domas, you know, you're on 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:38.400 the human supervision that instant reaction to predator and you know, 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:41.480 pray they no longer the most powerful pressures because you're 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:46.360 in this sort of cultivated environment, your physical protection and 0:41:46.440 --> 0:41:49.840 nutrition is more secure than it would be in a 0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:54.759 more wild environment. So domesticated animal is less allude to 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:58.200 its surroundings, less away of its surroundings than its cousins 0:41:58.200 --> 0:42:01.239 in the wild. UM and we could see as well, 0:42:01.280 --> 0:42:04.400 you know, with human sidentism, there's also been you know, 0:42:04.440 --> 0:42:11.040 a reduction mobility UM and and of course at consequences 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:15.279 for health. To be very honest with you, I was 0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:18.600 actually kind of consumed about covering this and I was 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:22.000 trying to figure out a way to cover this UM 0:42:22.040 --> 0:42:28.319 in a way that doesn't make me look like I'm 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:34.480 trying to like retire into the deeps of Amazonia or something. Yeah, 0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:37.520 but I just I find it interesting to think about 0:42:37.520 --> 0:42:40.480 her environments shape us. Yeah, absolutely, I mean you can 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:45.440 think about these things without becoming a hermit and hiding 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:48.880 in the woods. As as as attractive as an idea 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:52.919 as that may, well, yeah for sure, for sure. I mean, 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:56.480 like I have this like kind of conn in my head, 0:42:57.160 --> 0:43:00.319 you know, like the whole idea of multi verses. I 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:03.680 figured somewhere in the multiverses a version of myself we 0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:06.600 have retired into the forest and gone through this whole 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:10.160 kind of like anime training arc and emerged as this 0:43:10.320 --> 0:43:15.520 like one punchman beast of a human. I would I would. 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:17.759 I would also like to be that typeline. I think 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:20.080 that would be very interesting. Like a train so hard 0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:23.760 that all my hair falls out. Able to snap trees 0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:29.800 with just a breath is like, yeah, the the the 0:43:29.800 --> 0:43:35.680 the quintessential wild man. That's yeah. I mean, I'm sure 0:43:35.680 --> 0:43:41.400 there's also multiverse version of me where I'm president or something. 0:43:43.200 --> 0:43:46.640 It would be pretty interesting to see, Like I should 0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:49.600 be kind of cool. I just had an idea of 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:56.080 like this, um this team of versions of oneself that 0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:00.040 team up to like fight the evil versions of the 0:44:00.040 --> 0:44:02.919 cells across the multi Boose. It's kind of like kind 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:05.480 of the Conqueror, except I think in most fusions of 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:10.000 the multi Boose, he is evil. Yes, I have, I've definitely, 0:44:10.120 --> 0:44:12.560 I've definitely read that comic before, of the Good Ones 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.879 Fight the Bad Ones. I mean, the Injustice comics video 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:18.840 games are pretty pretty pretty big, pretty big staples of 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:22.920 that genre. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course an Injustice 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:27.160 it's different characters, whereas it will be interesting to see 0:44:27.160 --> 0:44:30.360 like a cast that's all just one person, just like 0:44:30.560 --> 0:44:34.040 the same dude. The exact same pluson, but they all 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:36.319 grew up in such different environments. Even though they share 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.600 the exact same DNA, they're like different people. It could 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.640 be an interesting commentary on society because we do live 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:46.120 in one, after all, we do live in a society 0:44:46.440 --> 0:44:51.920 for better for worse. Yeah. But anyway, like I'm saying, 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:57.480 you know, environments shape us. We shape environments, and to me, 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:00.600 we need to start shaping our environments again, so we 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:06.200 could either shape up or chip out of existence as 0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:09.440 a species, right, um, you know, because the way the 0:45:09.480 --> 0:45:16.719 trajectory were on is not sustainable. Um. So we can 0:45:16.760 --> 0:45:21.520 see of course, in this transition to the domas um, 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:25.520 the sedentary, green growing sort of community that you know, 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:30.680 in archaeological studies of the bones of the inhabitants, you 0:45:30.719 --> 0:45:35.080 could see like repetitive stress injuries shaping their bodies, you know, 0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:40.279 like the skeletal signatures of like grinding grain and you know, 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:47.359 like ah, cutting and sewing and kneeling and bending and 0:45:49.440 --> 0:45:53.719 moving in you know, very repetitive ways, you know. And 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:55.919 of course with these concentrations of people we also see 0:45:56.000 --> 0:46:00.080 like epidemics and stuff and parasites starting to fester, not 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:02.520 just within humans, or just not just within species, but 0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:08.400 also like cross species pathogens and stuff. Yeah, you know, 0:46:08.640 --> 0:46:12.160 and so as we all on this kind of same arc, 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:15.840 sharing this micro environment, sharing out germs and parasites, you 0:46:15.960 --> 0:46:19.960 end ups getting more and more brutal versions of like 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:24.759 wild diseases, you know, because they basically go through the 0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:29.200 the iron gauntlet of you know, like that the disease 0:46:29.280 --> 0:46:32.600 thunder doom. We're only one could come out as victorious, 0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:35.560 and so they battled out and became these more refined 0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:39.160 and more severe forms, which is why you see in 0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:43.799 Europe where they had this high population densities, say, the 0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.680 diseases that developed there when they were introduced to the 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:49.320 coote and quote New World. You know, the really ravaged 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:53.080 population that didn't really live on that level of density. 0:46:53.360 --> 0:46:55.439 Not to say they didn't have cities, because they did 0:46:55.680 --> 0:47:00.720 their cities and villages and collaborations and such as people 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:06.960 spanning across like large areas, but it wasn't organized in 0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:11.200 quite the same way. It wasn't generalizing quite fairly. But 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:18.799 you know, it's two whole continents. Um. We also see 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:24.880 that like nutritional stress starts to develop in the bones 0:47:24.920 --> 0:47:31.759 and teeth of um more quote domiciled humans um. You see, 0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:36.319 like I and deficiency anemia in people whose diets were 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:41.439 consisting increasingly of grains, and you know, as I said 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:44.719 told you know, their diets became narrower, you know, less 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:51.279 variety UM in both plants and proteins. And so that 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:56.800 ended up leading to you know, like declining tooth size 0:47:57.000 --> 0:48:02.759 and reduction in statue and skeletal austiness. And of course 0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:08.040 this change and like our physiology and dimorphism as a 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:10.400 history such as like a lot food the fact in 0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:17.160 justest in Neolithic but sidentis um and crowding definitely left 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:24.440 an immediate and legible mark on the archaeological record. I 0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:28.400 do find it interesting. Um. I read this book I 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:32.759 think last year called Botany of Desire, and in it 0:48:33.080 --> 0:48:39.240 the guy um what's his name, And in it Michael 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:43.720 Poland talks about all the plans we thought we were domestigating. 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.160 Domesticated us too, you know, because if you think about it, 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:50.840 you know, you up in the garden on your hands 0:48:50.840 --> 0:48:54.480 and knees, day after day, sun and rain, reading and 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:59.880 fertilizing and untangling and protecting and reshaping an environment. Justice 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:04.240 suits you little to me to plants, you'll potato plant, 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:09.800 and I mean the plant kind of hasn't made you know, um, 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:11.600 they don't have to worry about the sort of things 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:14.840 they would usually have to worry about outside of the 0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:17.520 domas you know, you are there to make sure that 0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:19.719 their competitors are weeded out. You are there to make 0:49:19.719 --> 0:49:22.279 sure they get all the nutrients they need. You're there 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:25.440 to make sure that do insects and stuff come and 0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:28.399 like ravage them, and you even help to fertilize them 0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:33.000 as well. And so you know, it's kind of like 0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:42.480 I want to say, uh, mutual relationship because as you know, 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:46.160 these domesticated plants have continued long this path of domestication. 0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:49.520 A lot of them can no longer thrive without our help. 0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:55.399 And in the same way, you know, we can't just 0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:58.680 not go on without them. You know, we also are 0:49:58.680 --> 0:50:03.120 dependent on a handful of domesticated cultivars. Like we can't 0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:04.880 just certainly switch and just be like, oh, we're not 0:50:04.920 --> 0:50:09.200 gonna grow wheat and corn and potatoes anymore. But I 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:12.960 mean that's been the foundation of all diets for too 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:16.080 long now. That's what you know, most of our food production, 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:19.520 I don't have percentages, I wouldn't say most or just see, 0:50:20.360 --> 0:50:24.560 a lot of our food production is like centered around 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:30.120 that and so um, you know we can't just jump 0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:34.040 out to that, especially with the population increases, so you 0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:37.920 just have grown increasingly reliant on a few like grains 0:50:37.920 --> 0:50:42.600 and cereals, um and starches. So yeah, we do we 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:47.080 need them more than they need said a lot of senses. Yeah, yeah, 0:50:47.120 --> 0:50:49.680 exactly exactly, because I mean a lot of them. They 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:53.120 do still have like wild counterparts that can always you know, 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:58.480 take over. It's just a wild counterparts generally less appetizing 0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:01.399 than the ones who have gotten used to. I'm sure 0:51:01.440 --> 0:51:03.600 a lot of people have seen that picture of the 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:07.600 different types of bananas out there, um, or you know, 0:51:07.680 --> 0:51:11.240 the different types of corn out there. Um. Of course 0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:14.239 there a lot of corn species that are edible because 0:51:14.280 --> 0:51:18.640 you know they were cultivated in massive America. UM. I 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.640 would like to try them, because the corn that I've 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:25.960 grown up with gotten used too much of what it's called. 0:51:26.360 --> 0:51:32.000 But I don't like it. UM. I find the texture 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:36.239 and taste of it to be kind of lack of 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:41.560 a vetter would revolting. So I mean, like, and I've 0:51:41.560 --> 0:51:43.359 been this way for like a long long time, right, 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:48.399 Like I growing up used to be refusing to eat 0:51:48.960 --> 0:51:51.160 like an entire plate of food because it had corn 0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:53.879 in it. I didn't like one. And if people used 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:55.799 to point out the irony and the fact that I 0:51:55.800 --> 0:51:59.520 would readily eat like corn pie, I would eat popcorn 0:52:00.239 --> 0:52:03.440 or would eat like corn bread. Yeah, but to me, 0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:08.360 it's it's not the same, you know, like corn on 0:52:08.400 --> 0:52:12.640 the cob and and stuff is it's not the same. So, 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:15.000 like I've tried some some different types of corn. Like 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:18.440 I've tried it was kind of like soft baby cornes 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:21.560 that you get in like soups and stuff, and those 0:52:21.600 --> 0:52:26.799 are delicious. You know. I wouldn't set your sights too 0:52:26.880 --> 0:52:29.960 much on those various corn varieties because one of the 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.040 oldest ways of eating corn before we had really nice 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:34.960 soft kernels, one of one of the oldest ways is 0:52:35.320 --> 0:52:37.479 we would we would take we would take the heart 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:42.200 that the hard corn kernels, um pop them inside a 0:52:43.400 --> 0:52:44.879 it's not like a frying pan to make this tart 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:47.719 expand then crush that up and mix it with like 0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:52.040 a liquid to have a very disgusting, starchy gruel. And 0:52:52.080 --> 0:52:53.759 that was the way that we ate corn for a 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.520 long time, and eventually that was eventually we were able 0:52:56.560 --> 0:52:59.759 to to like like tortillas and stuff, but for a 0:52:59.800 --> 0:53:04.640 long time it was just kind of corn. Yeah, this 0:53:04.680 --> 0:53:07.840 was this was amazing problem. This was a major problem 0:53:07.920 --> 0:53:12.480 during the Irish potato famine because in short, the potato 0:53:12.600 --> 0:53:16.480 crops failed um and so the British government imported a 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:18.879 bunch of what they called Indian corn at the time, 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.560 which was corn grown in the United States UM. And 0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:24.040 this was even though Irish people were growing plenty of 0:53:24.040 --> 0:53:26.759 corn to feed themselves, but that corn was being exported 0:53:27.120 --> 0:53:29.720 UM and the Indian corn was seen that it was harder, 0:53:29.800 --> 0:53:31.920 so it was seen as of lower quality. So they 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:34.600 had to develop a bunch of methods of grinding it down, 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:38.160 and eventually the government was just like, hey, just soak 0:53:38.239 --> 0:53:41.600 it for like several days and then boil it in 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:44.600 water for hours and add some milk or some grease 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.080 if you have it. And some of the problems that 0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:50.879 costs that, like the Irish people were starving to death, 0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:54.600 and because when you're starving to death, your your stomach 0:53:54.760 --> 0:53:56.600 is not as hardy as it is when you're not 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:59.640 starving to death, and so the corn, even after being 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.360 boiled old, would cut their stomachs and there is some 0:54:02.719 --> 0:54:07.720 deal lining and cause like in some cases people might die. Um, 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:12.279 so yeah, corn, see I could I could add that 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:17.759 to my reasons to despise corn, like anti Irish violence. 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:22.719 I'm gonna I will briefly rant about corn subsidies, because 0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:24.359 I don't think I've actually done that on this show yet. 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:29.400 We could talk there's there, there's there's a there's a 0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:35.319 thing about that'll be high traffic domass. That's like like 0:54:36.400 --> 0:54:39.880 in terms of domestication, in terms of human domestication, you know, 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:43.040 and in terms of the the extent to which we're 0:54:43.080 --> 0:54:46.960 being shaped, you have to be I think, very careful 0:54:47.040 --> 0:54:51.239 to make sure that you're attributing agency to the thing 0:54:51.280 --> 0:54:53.800 that actually has agency, because there's there's a tendency to 0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:57.560 sort of attribute stuff too, you know. Okay, well, this 0:54:57.640 --> 0:54:59.439 is just the way the technical process works. And because 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:01.200 this is the way they hadical process works, here are 0:55:01.200 --> 0:55:03.319 the social structure is that inevitably results out of it. 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:07.800 And that's true to some extent. But you know, for example, 0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:09.400 like if if we're talking about like whose domestic and 0:55:09.520 --> 0:55:11.160 whom we look at corn, it's like, well, yeah, because 0:55:11.200 --> 0:55:13.040 we grow and grow an enormous amount of corn, but 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:15.520 it's not because of sort of like like that that's 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:18.400 the reason we have so much corn is entirely political. 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:22.120 It's entirely about the fact that, like there's a corn 0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:24.960 lobby in the US that is enormously powerful, and because 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:26.320 of the way the Senate works and because of the 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:30.160 way sort of like the primaries work, you have to 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:34.080 be pro corn. And this means that the American corn 0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:37.080 industry has billions and billions of dollars and subsidies that 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:39.560 like this is this is like the only thing every 0:55:39.600 --> 0:55:43.239 economist across the entire political specium agrees on. Like you 0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:46.319 will you will get like the Heritage Foundation agreeing with 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:50.000 like Marxists who are agreeing with like like that the 0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:52.359 standard LiPo comes. Everyone agrees this is awful to free 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:54.279 trade people agree with this, The anti free trade people 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:57.200 agree with this. And it just sticks there because of, 0:55:57.320 --> 0:55:59.040 you know, because because because of a very sort of 0:56:00.440 --> 0:56:04.799 a very contingent set of political processes. And I think 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:06.680 that that's something that's important to keep in mind when 0:56:06.680 --> 0:56:10.200 you're thinking about stuff like domestication, which is that like, yes, 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:12.680 on the one hand, that it is true that you 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:15.160 are being shaped by the production process, but it's also true. 0:56:15.200 --> 0:56:17.680 For example, you know, if you go back to the 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:20.200 women in the story, who you know, you can see 0:56:20.200 --> 0:56:22.040 in in their bones right that they've been sort of 0:56:22.080 --> 0:56:25.560 like bending over like husking crops and stuff. Wells, like 0:56:25.640 --> 0:56:27.799 well that that it's true to some exact that that's 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:30.040 that's because of the production process. But the production process 0:56:30.080 --> 0:56:32.120 works like that because of social reasons, like okay, like 0:56:32.160 --> 0:56:35.400 why is it women doing this work? Right? Like there's 0:56:35.160 --> 0:56:39.840 there's always simultaneously sort of human and constructive social systems 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:43.000 operating at the same time as you have these mechanical systems, 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:46.160 and people love to attribute all of it to the 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:51.200 mechanical systems in a way that loses you know it 0:56:51.560 --> 0:56:55.920 it naturalizes things that are bad and could actually be changed, 0:56:56.280 --> 0:57:00.239 and loses the capacity for sort of well I mean yeah, 0:57:00.239 --> 0:57:03.200 I mean our sort of culpability and both the fact 0:57:03.200 --> 0:57:04.640 that it could be different than the fact that we 0:57:04.680 --> 0:57:09.000 do it this way. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's still 0:57:09.040 --> 0:57:11.040 I think it's still important because to like think about 0:57:11.080 --> 0:57:14.520 like how reliant we still are on it as a 0:57:14.520 --> 0:57:17.600 resource in terms of like maze and like you know, 0:57:17.760 --> 0:57:21.160 corn syrup and like getting like glucose get like, like 0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:23.840 it's so we rely on it for so many facets 0:57:23.840 --> 0:57:28.040 beyond just eating like a corn on the cob, and like, yeah, 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:29.640 it's kind of it's like it's like a it's like 0:57:29.680 --> 0:57:31.840 a it's like a figure right infinity loop here that 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:33.840 we've kind of we've we've kind of like tied ourselves 0:57:33.880 --> 0:57:36.640 into a knot. Um. Yeah, I want to say, like 0:57:36.760 --> 0:57:37.960 a lot of this stuff also has to do with 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:39.680 the fact, like you know, part of the reason that 0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:41.960 there's we use corn syrup is they were like taxes 0:57:41.960 --> 0:57:43.760 on sugar and you could get you can ye around 0:57:43.880 --> 0:57:45.840 and has all there's all these like yeah, there's all 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:48.560 these sort of feedback cycles of like we become dependent 0:57:48.560 --> 0:57:50.240 on something because of a social process, but now we're 0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:52.920 dependent on the physical process. And it's yeah, I mean, 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:54.520 so you can you can like tie this into the 0:57:54.560 --> 0:57:58.480 idea of like once you switched over to large scale agriculture, 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:02.840 we need to kind of have somebody that that governs 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:05.360 how it works, because now we're no longer reliant on 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:10.000 smaller more like individualized farms or forest farming. We're instead 0:58:10.040 --> 0:58:13.520 reliant on a bigger you know, like a bigger stake 0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:15.240 in the land. So if that fails, we're all more 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:19.000 in trouble. Now, agriculture does not equal sieve. That's not 0:58:19.200 --> 0:58:23.760 that's not an actually sound um and the like like anthropology. 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:25.960 Like if if you look at the anthropology, that's actually 0:58:26.000 --> 0:58:27.880 not a super stand argument. I think you can you 0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:30.880 can read the the the not of everything that makes 0:58:30.920 --> 0:58:33.440 they make that point pretty clear. But still when you 0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:36.560 do have when you do have a large population relying 0:58:36.600 --> 0:58:40.840 on very few like um, very large crop like like 0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:44.320 like of only a small diversity of large crops, and 0:58:44.360 --> 0:58:45.880 there's a lot there's a lot, there's a lot more 0:58:45.880 --> 0:58:48.479 stakes on it. So you're gonna you know, there's gonna 0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:51.840 be processes that are going to have like authority, authoritative 0:58:52.000 --> 0:58:55.959 hierarchical elements to help organize those crops so that they 0:58:56.000 --> 0:58:58.600 we don't get you know, famines, which of course if 0:58:58.640 --> 0:59:00.959 you look at Maos China you can see that worked 0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:04.760 out very well. Yeah, and I should note for the record, 0:59:05.080 --> 0:59:07.400 when we're talking about the Irish potato fam and that 0:59:07.520 --> 0:59:10.720 a lot of people didn't die because the government imported corn, 0:59:10.880 --> 0:59:13.000 which they stopped doing after the first year of the 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:15.960 famine because of travalie. Anyway, what we're doing, we'll be 0:59:16.000 --> 0:59:18.000 doing an episode on the potato famine. I didn't want 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:20.600 to completely shift on the corn that was imported by 0:59:20.640 --> 0:59:25.360 the government because it was critical. It's just also eating 0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:28.720 corn doesn't historically, as as was brought up earlier, eating 0:59:28.760 --> 0:59:33.120 corn historically does not mean what you you think about now. Yeah, well, 0:59:33.120 --> 0:59:35.560 and and you know what, we will also do things 0:59:35.640 --> 0:59:38.160 on on the Mao famines. And part of that also 0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:42.040 was that the centralization of agriculture was a like epocle 0:59:42.160 --> 0:59:48.000 disaster in a lot of ways that took like decades 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:55.160 to recover from, which, yeah, is a is a fun time. Yes, 0:59:55.480 --> 0:59:59.240 and when Chris says a fun time here, he is 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:02.840 not the true But those new ideas who were wondering, 1:00:06.080 --> 1:00:09.720 thank you, thank you, I Drew for that clarification. I was, 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:12.360 I was slightly I was slightly confused. Yes he is. 1:00:12.440 --> 1:00:15.240 He is slash G. He is not slash SR. Yeah. 1:00:15.240 --> 1:00:18.240 I mean it occurs to me that I'm not sure 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:19.960 I've ever gone back into the records to see if 1:00:19.960 --> 1:00:21.720 anyone in my family died from the famines. I know 1:00:21.800 --> 1:00:23.800 people died later, I don't know if people died specifically 1:00:23.800 --> 1:00:28.280 from that. Which is a good time. Again, but when 1:00:28.360 --> 1:00:32.520 Chris has a good time, what they actually made. Is 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:38.720 not a good time. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to against 1:00:38.720 --> 1:00:42.880 the grain, back to against the green. So I was 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:46.560 talking about, you know, this reliance on this one steep 1:00:46.560 --> 1:00:49.640 will whether it be corn or green or any cereal. 1:00:49.840 --> 1:00:53.479 Really it kind of brings to mind. Um. And also 1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:58.120 we're going to talk about the centralization of farming. I know, um, 1:00:58.160 --> 1:01:00.160 you know we've grown to be so reliant and these 1:01:00.720 --> 1:01:04.840 single things. And not only that, but less people know 1:01:05.000 --> 1:01:09.600 about the processes that go into our food than ever before. Um. 1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:14.800 We see kind of like as time progresses, um. And 1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:18.080 as James Scott points out, and to gatherers, you know, 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:21.680 they had this post of natural rhythms that they had 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:24.960 to observe. You know, they had like the movement of hoods, 1:01:25.000 --> 1:01:29.160 to see some migrations of boods, you know, the resting 1:01:29.240 --> 1:01:34.080 and nesting places of fish, cycles of who will hold 1:01:34.120 --> 1:01:38.680 the different fruits and nuts. Um. And if you in 1:01:38.720 --> 1:01:40.560 the Caribbean, you would know about things like you know, 1:01:40.600 --> 1:01:44.040 mango season and plum season and chant season, all these 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:47.600 different seasons at different times of year. Um. And to 1:01:47.680 --> 1:01:51.240 keep track of all those plus several more because they 1:01:51.240 --> 1:01:55.480 had such diverse diets, I mean, the way to track 1:01:55.600 --> 1:01:59.880 the appearance of you know, different mushrooms, Um, the locations, 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:04.680 different types of game. You know, it's it's all these 1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:10.040 activities that require tool kits, writing, different techniques that have 1:02:10.160 --> 1:02:13.040 to be mastered. Have we understood have to be shared 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:17.400 from generations generation. You know. They also in addition to that, 1:02:17.440 --> 1:02:20.280 you know, these forts, they had the ability to cultivate, 1:02:20.760 --> 1:02:24.560 you know, a lots of different stands of you know, cereal. Um, 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:27.240 they had the different tools. They hadn't have to make 1:02:27.280 --> 1:02:32.200 sickles and you know, um what you call those against 1:02:32.200 --> 1:02:36.080 sling shots and blue dots and all these different tools. 1:02:36.120 --> 1:02:42.280 Wort have used spears, arrows. And they also would have 1:02:42.280 --> 1:02:47.040 had to recognize the seasonality of sometimes different ecosystems. You know, 1:02:47.080 --> 1:02:50.000 they might have been crossing for white lands and forests 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:54.040 and savannahs and arid environments. And so as they understand 1:02:54.040 --> 1:02:57.200 they had to understand these, um, these rhythms, and they 1:02:57.200 --> 1:03:02.600 had to be generalists and opportunity that could take advantage 1:03:02.680 --> 1:03:07.200 of these different rhythms, all the different episodic bounties that 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:10.920 nature may provide or rather that provide, but you know, 1:03:11.880 --> 1:03:14.439 bring their way that they would have to kind of fight. 1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:19.360 Four in some cases, but they have this sort of metronome. Right. 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:23.160 Farmers on the other hand, you know, as we sort 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:27.280 of moved to that sort of farming dominant, sedentary sort 1:03:27.280 --> 1:03:29.280 of way of life, you know, you lost you can 1:03:29.280 --> 1:03:32.720 find to this one single food web. Right, your two 1:03:33.000 --> 1:03:36.520 routine has a particular tempo you s left abso observe 1:03:36.800 --> 1:03:40.720 you know, different seasonalities and different movements. But it's a 1:03:40.720 --> 1:03:43.240 bit more limited. You know, you have a handful of 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.480 crops that you have to bring successfully to harvest every yale, 1:03:46.920 --> 1:03:48.680 and I mean it's complex. A lot of things have 1:03:48.760 --> 1:03:51.720 to look out for, whether it be you know, diseases 1:03:51.760 --> 1:03:57.280 and pathogens and you know, different insects and and pests 1:03:57.280 --> 1:04:00.880 at me um come at to your crops. You know, 1:04:00.920 --> 1:04:02.680 you have to look out full of different things, but 1:04:04.120 --> 1:04:15.760 it's usually uh closer, less expansive range of activities, at 1:04:15.800 --> 1:04:20.800 least in comparison to hunt gatherer. On the other hand, 1:04:22.120 --> 1:04:29.600 farming and the nuances of cereal grain farming um far 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:35.200 more complex, require far more skill and much wider range 1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:41.160 of knowledges than you know working on an assembly line. 1:04:41.760 --> 1:04:47.760 You know, um, as believe Adam Smith points on wealthy nations, 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:50.840 you know you have all these people on this assembly 1:04:50.880 --> 1:04:55.880 line making pins, but Alexis they took a ville asks 1:04:56.320 --> 1:04:58.440 what can be expected of a man who has spent 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:02.160 twenty years of his life putting heads on thins? You know, 1:05:02.240 --> 1:05:06.560 just sort of a restriction in terms of a contraction 1:05:06.720 --> 1:05:11.600 in terms of the range of knowledges and expertise is 1:05:11.720 --> 1:05:18.520 that you know one can be expected to take on UM. 1:05:18.560 --> 1:05:20.720 And so I guess that kind of links into my 1:05:20.800 --> 1:05:24.600 whole idea of anti work. It's this idea of moving 1:05:25.240 --> 1:05:29.439 outside and beyond this kind of restriction to like one 1:05:29.560 --> 1:05:34.040 or two or a few rigorous activities that you expected 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:36.560 to do for the rest of your life, and also 1:05:37.080 --> 1:05:42.080 opening people up to exploring a wider range of knowledges 1:05:42.160 --> 1:05:47.440 and expertises and experiences and practices that you know they 1:05:47.440 --> 1:05:53.440 can weave into their everyday life rather than you know, 1:05:53.560 --> 1:05:58.560 just one minutely choreographed routine of dance steps. You know, 1:05:58.600 --> 1:06:03.600 there's a bit more expression, a bit more freedom in 1:06:03.760 --> 1:06:07.000 terms of you know, how we live, in terms of 1:06:07.040 --> 1:06:10.360 how we work, in terms of how we educate, in 1:06:10.480 --> 1:06:16.000 terms of how we build, UM, how we socialize UM. 1:06:16.040 --> 1:06:20.280 Being able to sort of much just marsh to one beat, 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:27.920 but sort of generating a company of music. Absolutely, absolutely, 1:06:28.000 --> 1:06:32.479 because I think no matter whether or not you own 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:36.120 a share in the pinmaking factory, I think you're still 1:06:36.160 --> 1:06:39.280 gonna face alienation from your environment by just doing the 1:06:39.320 --> 1:06:42.520 same repetitive taskt hours a day. Like I don't. I 1:06:42.520 --> 1:06:50.640 don't think that's actually much better. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:54.320 And it requires transmission. And so for those who haven't seen, 1:06:54.480 --> 1:06:57.560 you know, I did a video on anti work sort 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:01.000 of discussing it, so we could check that out when 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:05.000 this comes out, I suppose. I just want to point 1:07:05.040 --> 1:07:11.840 out that right now we live in a society that 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:19.920 um that is governed by institutions that often demand behavior 1:07:20.080 --> 1:07:25.320 that conflicts with our innate capacities and predilections. You know, 1:07:25.960 --> 1:07:30.080 the millions of years of us living in these you know, 1:07:30.360 --> 1:07:39.720 cooperative social sharing environments, you know, where community, communal and 1:07:39.880 --> 1:07:47.200 individual um rights and and stuff and such were valued 1:07:47.240 --> 1:07:51.960 and respected. I mean to sort of draw back to 1:07:52.000 --> 1:07:54.800 the Truman Show analogy. It's almost as if, you know, 1:07:54.800 --> 1:07:57.120 we went from living in the world to living in 1:07:57.160 --> 1:08:01.000 a zoom of our own making. They were just being well, 1:08:01.040 --> 1:08:05.200 I guess we're watching ourselves in this suit. Yeah, It's 1:08:05.240 --> 1:08:07.320 it's like the zoo keeper who lives inside the zoo 1:08:07.320 --> 1:08:13.040 and is also the attraction exactly. And and so I 1:08:13.080 --> 1:08:17.879 think that while obviously we can't switch back to like foraging, 1:08:17.960 --> 1:08:22.599 you know, that's not necessarily desirable. I do think that 1:08:22.960 --> 1:08:26.720 we need to we consider our approaches to you know, 1:08:27.520 --> 1:08:35.280 health and security and work and leisure and the way 1:08:35.280 --> 1:08:38.599 we relate to the natural world. You have to sort 1:08:38.600 --> 1:08:44.200 of change the story and changed how we organize. It's 1:08:44.280 --> 1:08:48.439 going to take Charlione Ore of course. Um. Anyone who's 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:52.759 organized can tell you that it is far from easy, um, 1:08:52.760 --> 1:09:00.639 and is replete with setback and failure. But I think 1:09:00.680 --> 1:09:07.559 we have a responsibility too remique this. It's not as 1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:11.400 cool to write the wrongs of yesterday to the end tomorrow, 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:17.160 nows it? Whoa throwing a couple of air horns here, Dad, 1:09:19.000 --> 1:09:21.479 make sure they're pitched lower so that it's not horrible 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:42.160 to listen to. No, never do that. Oh yeah, it 1:09:42.320 --> 1:09:47.439 could happen here. The only podcast that is on right 1:09:47.479 --> 1:09:50.160 now in your ears where you can listen to us 1:09:50.200 --> 1:09:56.160 talk about things falling apart and occasionally more optimistic stuff. Garrison, 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:59.240 is this one of the more optimistic stuff days? Not really, 1:10:00.400 --> 1:10:03.000 it's things, it's things falling apart, but in a slightly 1:10:03.040 --> 1:10:08.680 amusing way. Yeah, it's it's it's gonna be fine. Um, 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:12.559 So have is any is any of y'all's familiar with 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:19.320 the Devious Licks? Vaguely? Yeah, so all of all of 1:10:19.439 --> 1:10:20.920 I'm sure all of the I'm sure all of the 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:23.479 lick fans are gonna be really excited about today's episode 1:10:23.520 --> 1:10:26.439 because the first half will be we'll be talking about 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:30.680 all of the all of the licks. So for for 1:10:30.880 --> 1:10:35.439 those unfamiliar, the Devious Licks meme challenge thing started with 1:10:35.479 --> 1:10:39.719 this video by a kid who had stolen quote unquote 1:10:39.720 --> 1:10:42.439 stolen a bunch of like COVID masks from his school 1:10:43.080 --> 1:10:48.120 and then was showing off his his his harvest on 1:10:48.160 --> 1:10:51.320 TikTok played over you know, played over a song or 1:10:51.360 --> 1:10:55.000 something as as you do on the TikTok's. So they 1:10:55.080 --> 1:10:58.080 posted the video with this caption a month into school, 1:10:58.360 --> 1:11:03.559 absolutely devious slick um I and lick. I think lick 1:11:03.680 --> 1:11:06.519 just means like stealing, like like you like stole something 1:11:06.600 --> 1:11:09.400 and like that's like that is a lick um. I 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:11.639 was so sad when I first heard about this. I 1:11:11.640 --> 1:11:14.040 I heard I heard someone say devious licks and I 1:11:14.120 --> 1:11:16.120 was like, they're like, oh, the TikTok challenge. And I 1:11:16.160 --> 1:11:19.080 was like, oh, ship, people are like walking up to 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:21.000 like like they're gonna like lick the other side of 1:11:21.040 --> 1:11:22.960 a bridge or something. And then it was not that 1:11:23.080 --> 1:11:26.320 unfortunately unfortunately not. Yeah it is, it is. It is 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:31.439 a real loss. Um. So this this video went very 1:11:31.560 --> 1:11:35.479 very viral on TikTok very very quickly, um, mostly among 1:11:35.560 --> 1:11:39.479 kids whom's like their in person school had just had 1:11:39.520 --> 1:11:42.160 just started. This was this thing in like late August 1:11:42.160 --> 1:11:46.559 early September of last year, uh, you know first with 1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:50.920 you know. The initial video then subsequently inspired a bunch 1:11:50.920 --> 1:11:55.480 of copycat school related heists that then posted into TikTok's 1:11:56.160 --> 1:12:00.160 first People just stealing like small, mostly low stakes things, 1:12:00.280 --> 1:12:03.559 usually inside the bathrooms, you know, stuff like toilet paper rolls, 1:12:03.600 --> 1:12:08.800 paper tower rolls, soap from soap dispensers, light bulbs, you know, 1:12:09.240 --> 1:12:15.520 like floor tiles, just like just like small things. Um. 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:18.200 But after a while the smoke fry wasn't was not 1:12:18.400 --> 1:12:23.400 enough anymore. People started to get more um brazen, more 1:12:23.400 --> 1:12:28.080 more more devious, you might say, yeah they were. They 1:12:28.360 --> 1:12:32.120 moved on to like full on toilet heists. Um. And uh, 1:12:32.200 --> 1:12:37.439 you know electric hand dryers. They stole a teacher's entire desk, um, 1:12:37.560 --> 1:12:44.120 and a whole bathroom sink. So yeah, and eventually they 1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:47.160 kind of dropped all pretense of this being hoisting and 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:50.320 just sort of just like destroying the bathrooms, um, not 1:12:50.400 --> 1:12:53.160 even stealing things anymore. Yeah, Garrison, you and I have 1:12:53.200 --> 1:12:55.040 a friend who works at a school where this has 1:12:55.040 --> 1:12:58.680 been We got accused of like pushing disinformation when we 1:12:58.680 --> 1:13:00.640 talked about this on Worst Year. It's like, no, we 1:13:00.680 --> 1:13:02.439 know people who work at a school that has not 1:13:02.560 --> 1:13:09.160 had functional students happened, and it's it's very funny, as 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:12.840 just just just to clarify my opinion on it, very funny, Yes, 1:13:13.200 --> 1:13:17.639 it's um, yes, they but yeah, just just it started. 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:20.080 It started with stealing and then just Scott turned into 1:13:20.240 --> 1:13:24.519 let's just destroy the batchards, which is pretty funny. Kids rock, 1:13:24.880 --> 1:13:31.960 Kids rock. So obviously schools, teachers and principles were scrambling. Um. 1:13:32.000 --> 1:13:37.360 Their confusion only upseeded uh by their being upset because 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:40.360 they shouldn't have allowed children to be born into a 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:43.479 world where TikTok could exist. Really is on them, and 1:13:43.560 --> 1:13:46.599 you know, all of the upsetted nous by teachers and 1:13:46.800 --> 1:13:50.080 schools only like contributed to the meme with like kids 1:13:50.080 --> 1:13:52.599 posting their principles reactions to it, you know, like like 1:13:52.800 --> 1:13:56.120 people like like announcing over the intercom, like like new 1:13:56.240 --> 1:14:01.040 rules about how to prevent the bastard destruction of schools 1:14:01.040 --> 1:14:04.040 are having to like station staff members outside of bathrooms 1:14:04.120 --> 1:14:06.679 to like like check and hopefully like ward off any 1:14:06.720 --> 1:14:10.519 possible destructive shenanigans. Um. It was it was this, It 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:13.120 was it was this entire thing. Uh, And it got 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:15.719 to the point where TikTok actually had to step into 1:14:15.800 --> 1:14:19.200 kind of curb this meme. They banned the hashtag devious slick, 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:21.640 they took down any content that had anything to do 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:25.840 with the trend, and this seemed to work. Um. After 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:28.639 a few weeks, the meme kind of reached the end 1:14:28.720 --> 1:14:32.679 of its virility cycle. Teachers got to breathe a sigh 1:14:32.760 --> 1:14:36.160 of relief. Maybe there would be no more smashed bathrooms 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:43.920 or stolen desks fools um. But their calumn did not 1:14:44.120 --> 1:14:48.720 last long. By the end of September, there were rumors 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:56.680 perculating around that devious Yeah, I got perculating percolating, Come on, 1:14:57.760 --> 1:15:02.040 I don't know. It was it was it was it was. 1:15:02.120 --> 1:15:03.960 It was said that the davious Licks may not have 1:15:03.960 --> 1:15:06.080 a wooden stick through its heart, and we may have 1:15:06.120 --> 1:15:10.200 only witnessed the first wave. With something much darker lurking 1:15:10.240 --> 1:15:14.880 around the corner. On Facebook, various parent, teacher and law 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:20.800 enforcement groups started circulating some per purported sorry started circulating 1:15:20.800 --> 1:15:25.559 some purported Shenanigan plans from the kids. On TikTok, there 1:15:25.640 --> 1:15:29.800 was this month by month calendar detailing two kids what 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:32.880 sick pranks they should play on their school for the 1:15:33.160 --> 1:15:36.200 for the entire rest of the year. Uh and a 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:39.240 few versions of this calendar were spread around, but they 1:15:39.280 --> 1:15:42.280 all shared the same basic overall structure and prank ideas, 1:15:42.520 --> 1:15:45.679 just some like wording and phrasing changed. And the first 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:50.040 upcoming challenge for the month of October was slap a 1:15:50.080 --> 1:15:57.479 teacher Sorry. This spread beyond Facebook and including to local news. Well. 1:15:57.560 --> 1:16:00.759 Now another TikTok challenge getting a lot of attention tonight, 1:16:00.760 --> 1:16:04.240 and it's a violent one, targeting teachers that if had 1:16:04.240 --> 1:16:07.439 a joint union superintendent. Asking parents now to tell their 1:16:07.520 --> 1:16:10.960 kids not to participate in this challenge. It encourages students 1:16:10.960 --> 1:16:14.280 to actually slap their teachers. So although the smack of 1:16:14.360 --> 1:16:16.519 teacher line was what really got this thing to go 1:16:16.600 --> 1:16:21.080 viral on Facebook. Uh. The main screenshot at calendar that 1:16:21.160 --> 1:16:25.600 was being circulated. Uh, the actual October challenge was listed 1:16:25.680 --> 1:16:28.200 as a smack of staff member on the back side. 1:16:28.640 --> 1:16:32.320 That was that was the actual phrasing. Um, which is 1:16:32.439 --> 1:16:35.360 a little a little bizarre smack of staff member on 1:16:35.439 --> 1:16:41.320 the back side. Uh. November is kiss your friend's girlfriend 1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:47.719 at school, so again we're weird. Phrasing. December is deck 1:16:47.800 --> 1:16:51.360 the halls and show your balls in school halls, which 1:16:52.760 --> 1:16:56.880 that one was probably written by a child. But then 1:16:56.920 --> 1:16:59.920 we get other stuff like January is jab of breath. 1:17:01.040 --> 1:17:05.240 Uh so more more sexual as salt jokes. Um, February 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:08.720 we have a mess up school signs. March is make 1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:12.679 a mess in the courtyarder cafeteria. April this one's weird. 1:17:13.160 --> 1:17:17.200 April is grab some eggs, but eggs is in quotation 1:17:17.240 --> 1:17:21.160 marks and with a z at the end. Um. May 1:17:21.320 --> 1:17:24.439 is ditch day, that's fine. June is flip off the 1:17:24.439 --> 1:17:28.679 front office, okay, who cares? And July is spraying April's fence. 1:17:28.800 --> 1:17:32.760 Wow graffiti scary. Um, So yeah, that is that is 1:17:32.880 --> 1:17:35.840 that is the calendar of challenges. Uh. Some of these 1:17:35.960 --> 1:17:40.400 seem more. I mean, we talked about this a couple 1:17:40.439 --> 1:17:43.559 of months ago, and my feeling was that this started 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:47.920 as something real, just like yeah, and and this this 1:17:48.000 --> 1:17:50.360 ship was where it was. It became nonsense, which just 1:17:50.400 --> 1:17:53.240 like people sharing things that we're going to anger boomers 1:17:53.680 --> 1:17:57.800 this and we will we will get into this. Um So. Yeah. 1:17:57.840 --> 1:18:01.040 As as news about the TikTok challenges spread on Facebook, media, 1:18:01.160 --> 1:18:03.240 orgs picked up on the trend and started showting out 1:18:03.280 --> 1:18:09.959 headlines like TikTok's shocking school challenges liste revealed and devious 1:18:10.000 --> 1:18:13.960 licks asks students via TikTok to smack a staff member. 1:18:14.479 --> 1:18:18.479 The nation's teachers are feeling burnt out. So great, great 1:18:18.479 --> 1:18:21.880 headlines there. Um So all of that sounds so obviously 1:18:22.120 --> 1:18:24.880 very scary. Um if if if if teens around the 1:18:24.920 --> 1:18:29.680 country are all united in this, in this, in in 1:18:29.720 --> 1:18:34.120 this planned destruction of our entire civilization, that that you know, 1:18:34.320 --> 1:18:37.040 we could all be brought onto the brink of UH 1:18:37.560 --> 1:18:40.800 via teens destroying their schools. Was so that would be 1:18:40.880 --> 1:18:43.000 that would be kind of fun. Um. But if you 1:18:43.040 --> 1:18:45.320 stop and think about the wording of that list for 1:18:45.360 --> 1:18:48.000 a second, you might notice some things that just seem off, 1:18:48.120 --> 1:18:52.040 like no Gen Z kids are saying, uh, smack a 1:18:52.160 --> 1:18:58.360 staff member on the backside, Like you are the first 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:03.880 member of Generation Z to say backside, backside, And like 1:19:03.920 --> 1:19:07.920 the challenge for April is grab some eggs and eggs 1:19:07.920 --> 1:19:10.240 in quotation arcs with a Z at the end, because yeah, 1:19:10.280 --> 1:19:12.640 all of all of the cool kids today uses Z 1:19:12.800 --> 1:19:16.080 at the end of words to make Again, it's some 1:19:16.280 --> 1:19:20.840 like fucking gen X or maybe elder millennial piece of 1:19:20.840 --> 1:19:23.400 ship trying to make people angry on the internet, and 1:19:23.439 --> 1:19:31.160 he's just like April, what goes with April? April eggs? Eggs? Yeah, 1:19:31.240 --> 1:19:33.679 I don't know something, but like all of the language 1:19:33.720 --> 1:19:36.760 feels like what what what someone would write if they 1:19:36.760 --> 1:19:39.400 were trying to imitate what a cool nineties kid would 1:19:39.439 --> 1:19:42.160 talk like on TV. Yeah, it's a lot of people 1:19:42.240 --> 1:19:47.720 trying to write John Hughes movies. Yeah, but so, but 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:49.840 all all this was very vitral for like it was 1:19:50.080 --> 1:19:52.080 the end of September. This was this was all massive 1:19:52.160 --> 1:19:54.439 and we we will don't worry. I will explain why 1:19:54.560 --> 1:19:56.680 we're talking about this now because this does this, this 1:19:56.720 --> 1:19:59.519 will circle back to actually current events. Um, I'm not 1:19:59.520 --> 1:20:03.200 not just talking about a September trend. This, this does, 1:20:03.280 --> 1:20:07.160 this does relate to stuff happening currently. Um but yeah, 1:20:07.320 --> 1:20:10.960 like suspicious language aside the idea that the youths are 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:14.479 purposely plotting on the TikTok's to assault teachers andreek havoc 1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:18.439 all year long. Uh. Frightened many an adult, especially those 1:20:18.479 --> 1:20:21.160 that work in the education sector, who who might have 1:20:21.200 --> 1:20:24.120 to face the possibility of a coordinated zoom or wrath. 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:27.040 And you know the past two years had already been 1:20:27.120 --> 1:20:29.280 kind of a ship show for schools, with switching to 1:20:29.320 --> 1:20:32.759 remote learning then back to in person. There's all all debate, 1:20:32.800 --> 1:20:35.639 all the debate around masks and vaccinations and the risk 1:20:35.680 --> 1:20:39.200 of being inside around densely packed you know, groups of filthy, 1:20:39.240 --> 1:20:42.160 germ written children. Um. Plus there's all these kids that 1:20:42.240 --> 1:20:44.679 got used to being home alone for so long learning 1:20:44.680 --> 1:20:46.360 half to like like having to learn now how to 1:20:46.400 --> 1:20:50.040 like socialize in the class environment. Um, all while dealing 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:52.040 with the same mental trauma that we've all been dealing 1:20:52.040 --> 1:20:56.920 with around around the plague. So so, just having faced 1:20:57.000 --> 1:21:00.920 the actual very real September devious licks, the problems of 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:04.760 a year lowing TikTok with of destruction obviously frightened many 1:21:04.800 --> 1:21:08.840 parents and teachers, with educators on Facebook, you know, starting 1:21:08.880 --> 1:21:11.360 to take this list as a very real threat, with 1:21:11.400 --> 1:21:16.080 school districts, you know, issuing warnings and parents where you know, informed, 1:21:16.160 --> 1:21:20.360 like in mass about this very very real, very real threat. 1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:25.080 Educators be aware. That's the warning from the California Teachers Association. 1:21:25.520 --> 1:21:28.599 The group sent this message to educators letting them know 1:21:28.720 --> 1:21:32.320 about a potential TikTok trend calling for students to slap 1:21:32.320 --> 1:21:35.439 a staff member. Seminole County Schools just sent this letter 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:39.599 to principles warning them of TikTok's October challenge, saying, quote, 1:21:39.840 --> 1:21:43.400 in the latest TikTok trend, students are asked to calmly 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:46.719 walk up to their teachers, slap them, and then run off, 1:21:46.760 --> 1:21:50.440 making sure they capture the whole thing on camera. Okay, 1:21:50.439 --> 1:21:54.439 and we are back. So yeah, sure enough. News of 1:21:54.479 --> 1:21:59.240 teachers getting slapped began to circulate from local media into 1:21:59.320 --> 1:22:04.040 the nationals, far alongside headlines like TikTok inspired slap a 1:22:04.120 --> 1:22:08.599 teacher challenge assault reported at Braintrees East Middle School and 1:22:09.080 --> 1:22:14.080 Covington police say disabled teacher injured and suspected TikTok challenge 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:19.840 assaulted by student. Uh yeah, so there was there was 1:22:19.880 --> 1:22:22.280 there was a There was a few slapping incidents reported 1:22:22.280 --> 1:22:26.719 onto mainstream on on onto mainstream news, all all tied 1:22:26.840 --> 1:22:31.400 to the to the TikTok assaulted teacher thing um As, 1:22:31.439 --> 1:22:34.320 a student in Louisiana was arrested and faced felony charges, 1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:37.120 with police saying the assault was prompted by a quote 1:22:37.240 --> 1:22:41.920 prompted by a viral social media application known as TikTok s. 1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:48.400 We've done to notorious hacker again and I think circles 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:55.200 back application known as TikTok Um. So yeah, in October, 1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:59.400 there were definitely incidents of students, city teachers, um. But 1:22:59.720 --> 1:23:01.960 so that that in and of itself is not up 1:23:02.000 --> 1:23:06.080 for debate. This there, yes, uh, but the actual scale 1:23:06.120 --> 1:23:10.280 of content spreading this list and the subsequent slapping videos 1:23:10.360 --> 1:23:14.759 on the TikTok platform is something to question because writing 1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:19.240 writing off of the September Davious like STrenD, almost all media, police, parents, 1:23:19.400 --> 1:23:23.840 educators were super quick to link this list and these 1:23:23.960 --> 1:23:28.120 few teachers whackings to the social media platform used by 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:32.599 gen Z, the application known as TikTok Um. And so 1:23:32.640 --> 1:23:34.080 we we have we have all this talk on the 1:23:34.080 --> 1:23:37.320 news and on Facebook. But the thing is, if you 1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:40.400 check TikTok or at like if if if, if you're 1:23:40.400 --> 1:23:43.120 actually on TikTok around this time, you wouldn't find any 1:23:43.200 --> 1:23:47.200 viral videos of teachers getting slapped um or anything about 1:23:47.280 --> 1:23:51.439 this TikTok list of challenges at all. It wasn't actually there, like, 1:23:51.520 --> 1:23:54.080 it wasn't actually on TikTok. This this wasn't actually a thing. 1:23:54.880 --> 1:23:58.040 Uh So, you know, then you know you might be thinking, well, 1:23:58.080 --> 1:24:00.320 maybe TikTok is doing what they did previously just to 1:24:00.360 --> 1:24:04.120 shut down the original organic previously challenge. What if they're 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:06.519 just doing this like preemptively to taking down any content 1:24:06.880 --> 1:24:10.679 related to the list, any like corresponding hashtags, etcetera, etcetera. 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:13.800 But when journalists asked TikTok if this was the case, 1:24:14.040 --> 1:24:16.799 they denied this, saying that we have not seen anything 1:24:16.840 --> 1:24:20.679 of this nature on our app um. Then they said 1:24:20.680 --> 1:24:23.080 the first time they TikTok said, the first time they 1:24:23.080 --> 1:24:26.240 saw the list was of screenshots of it on other websites. 1:24:26.280 --> 1:24:28.360 It was it was not it was not from TikTok. 1:24:28.439 --> 1:24:31.479 It wasn't actually there. Uh So, As as more and 1:24:31.520 --> 1:24:34.559 more news circulated and blame was continuing to be put 1:24:34.600 --> 1:24:37.720 on TikTok for propagating this list of challenges and you know, 1:24:38.120 --> 1:24:42.559 encouraging teacher assaults. Uh. The social media platform made a 1:24:42.560 --> 1:24:45.880 public statement addressing the issue, saying, quote, the rumored slap 1:24:45.880 --> 1:24:49.320 a teacher dare is an insult to educators everywhere. And 1:24:49.360 --> 1:24:51.240 while this is not a trend on TikTok, if at 1:24:51.280 --> 1:24:55.240 any point it shows up, content will be removed. So 1:24:55.320 --> 1:24:57.639 as as much as you would search online on TikTok 1:24:57.840 --> 1:25:00.320 or you know wherever, you wouldn't find any of into 1:25:00.400 --> 1:25:03.360 this list actually being spread through TikTok at all. The 1:25:03.640 --> 1:25:06.719 only thing that you would find about this on TikTok 1:25:06.920 --> 1:25:10.639 is either kids reacting to news clips talking about this, 1:25:11.240 --> 1:25:14.080 or teachers on TikTok complain any of this as well. 1:25:14.280 --> 1:25:19.120 It wasn't actually a trend. Uh. The list was being 1:25:19.120 --> 1:25:21.960 shared online a lot like it was very viral, but 1:25:22.840 --> 1:25:27.640 almost exclusively in Facebook groups for boomers or adults or 1:25:27.760 --> 1:25:32.759 teachers or police. But people seemed real scared of those groups. 1:25:32.760 --> 1:25:37.360 Boomers Garrison, okay, that no died. Um it's it's it's 1:25:37.360 --> 1:25:46.760 it's like a mental ethnicity now, um. People people seem 1:25:46.800 --> 1:25:49.800 really scared. You know, schools were scared. News media loves 1:25:49.880 --> 1:25:54.000 turning this list into like a looming, looming boogeyman. But 1:25:54.120 --> 1:25:57.360 it wasn't. It wasn't kids actually spreading it or turning 1:25:57.360 --> 1:25:59.640 into a challenge, which leaves you to wonder where did 1:25:59.640 --> 1:26:02.080 this even come from and how did it actually get 1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:07.280 so viral. So multiple and multiple fully separate investigative kind 1:26:07.280 --> 1:26:12.040 of ordeals into the alleged TikTok list of challenges placed 1:26:12.200 --> 1:26:16.120 its original point of virility in the hands of of wait, 1:26:16.200 --> 1:26:20.880 wait for it, wait for it, a police officer. So 1:26:21.640 --> 1:26:26.200 Officer David go Metz, a school resource cop who runs 1:26:26.280 --> 1:26:30.360 a popular Facebook page under the banner of quote the 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:37.040 truth about youths, which is pretty cool. So Gobez works 1:26:37.080 --> 1:26:41.080 at a school in Idaho, Big shocker Um, and back 1:26:41.120 --> 1:26:44.720 in September, his Facebook page head over thirty three thousand followers. 1:26:45.000 --> 1:26:49.120 Now it has over um and he uses it as 1:26:49.120 --> 1:26:53.480 a sort of information hub for parents, educators, and concerned 1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:56.960 citizens to talk about the dangers of kids on the 1:26:57.000 --> 1:27:00.960 Internet and all of that jazz um. You know. Gomez 1:27:01.080 --> 1:27:03.480 basically tries to be like a kind of like influencer 1:27:03.640 --> 1:27:07.040 for this whole like a concerned adult corner of the Internet. 1:27:07.479 --> 1:27:10.880 He writes, these long, long posts about like school life 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:14.360 and digital safety, touching on many topics from like how 1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:18.120 your kids are secretly buying weed and vape pens or 1:27:18.160 --> 1:27:20.000 like how to tell if your kid is looking at 1:27:20.040 --> 1:27:25.040 pornographic materials, you know, stuff, stuff of this nature. Um 1:27:25.200 --> 1:27:28.200 like here, here's, here's here's a few posts from him 1:27:28.200 --> 1:27:31.040 from from just from just a few days ago. Um. 1:27:31.240 --> 1:27:35.920 Lots of inappropriate behaviors pushed on Snapchat desensitized kids to reality. 1:27:36.439 --> 1:27:43.280 Nude photos, drugs, parties, crimes, et cetera. Kids can order 1:27:43.320 --> 1:27:46.040 almost any illegal drug and have it delivered to them 1:27:46.040 --> 1:27:52.040 on most any place on Snapchat if only so so 1:27:52.200 --> 1:27:54.280 he's like, he's like one of these types of guy, 1:27:54.560 --> 1:27:59.080 like you know you know who? Yeah, yeah, God, if 1:27:59.120 --> 1:28:01.200 we only lived in that world, I would be on 1:28:01.320 --> 1:28:05.559 Snapchat so hard. I would be Uh. I love. I 1:28:05.600 --> 1:28:10.160 love the idea that Snapchat desensitizes kids to reality by 1:28:10.200 --> 1:28:15.880 telling them about parties and well, I mean any time 1:28:15.880 --> 1:28:19.040 I look, I have a profound negative mental health reaction 1:28:19.080 --> 1:28:22.240 whenever someone tells me about a party. So why wouldn't 1:28:22.280 --> 1:28:27.720 children so so? As the original Devious Licks challenge was 1:28:27.840 --> 1:28:31.160 dying down near the end of September, On September two, 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:35.439 Officer Gomez posted this list of challenges to his thousands 1:28:35.439 --> 1:28:38.679 of followers. In the next few days, the challenge list 1:28:38.720 --> 1:28:42.519 from his page circulated around the web, prompting many nervous 1:28:42.600 --> 1:28:47.000 school emails, terrified newscasts, and ending up actually making the 1:28:47.040 --> 1:28:50.639 list of challenges go completely viral. UM. When asked about 1:28:50.680 --> 1:28:53.200 the origin of the list, he said the first place 1:28:53.240 --> 1:28:55.839 that he had seen it is in a smaller private 1:28:55.880 --> 1:28:59.960 Facebook group for people working in drug and alcohol enforced 1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:03.720 and education. He called it a drug recognition group. It's 1:29:03.720 --> 1:29:05.760 like a group of like cops and stuff, where like, 1:29:06.160 --> 1:29:09.760 I found this bag of leaves, what what is it? 1:29:09.960 --> 1:29:12.559 Can can I can I arrest this person? It's like 1:29:12.560 --> 1:29:14.559 it's it's it's it's it's these people who like, yeah, 1:29:14.800 --> 1:29:19.240 post random stuff to figure out what drugs are looking at. UM. So, 1:29:19.360 --> 1:29:23.120 he claims he first saw it in this Facebook group UM, 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:25.519 but admitted that he was unsure if it had actually 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:28.919 alternated from kids or not let let alone on TikTok. 1:29:29.200 --> 1:29:32.080 He just posted it because he thought, you know, better 1:29:32.120 --> 1:29:36.400 safe than sorry. UM. But you know, it's it's funny. 1:29:36.439 --> 1:29:39.679 Because Officer Gomez's intention may just have been to spread 1:29:39.680 --> 1:29:41.439 the word about this because he thought it was an 1:29:41.439 --> 1:29:43.840 actual threat, But it turns out that he was just 1:29:43.880 --> 1:29:46.080 the one that gave it online life in the first place. 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:50.800 So so yeah. But for like the actual origin of it, 1:29:50.880 --> 1:29:53.080 like like for it actually came up, as best as 1:29:53.120 --> 1:29:55.800 we can tell, um it seems to It seems to 1:29:55.840 --> 1:30:00.519 have stem from a school in California. A principle claims 1:30:00.640 --> 1:30:03.640 that a student sent them this list I'll be I'll 1:30:03.680 --> 1:30:06.680 be at a slightly more a vulglar version more in 1:30:06.720 --> 1:30:09.320 line with how kids kind of talk now. The teacher 1:30:09.360 --> 1:30:11.960 then uploaded it to a teacher Facebook group. It was 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:15.040 then shared to this drug recognition group of Officer Gomez, 1:30:15.240 --> 1:30:18.800 and then Gomez or someone along this process rewrote it 1:30:18.840 --> 1:30:22.080 to add the weird like boomer Jen's like like like 1:30:22.120 --> 1:30:25.800 a nineties cool kid language, and then Gomez posted it 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:29.480 and then that results in like the cool kid's attitude, 1:30:29.840 --> 1:30:33.800 and then he posted it goes viral. But there's no 1:30:33.840 --> 1:30:35.800 evidence that it was ever on TikTok like at all, 1:30:36.000 --> 1:30:38.479 like this we this No, I think it's not actually 1:30:38.840 --> 1:30:43.479 on TikTok until the cop posts it. So the other 1:30:43.520 --> 1:30:46.439 funny thing is that all of these slapping incidents reported 1:30:46.640 --> 1:30:49.280 on the news, including the one that resulted in an arrest, 1:30:50.040 --> 1:30:51.880 also turns out to have nothing to do with the 1:30:51.960 --> 1:30:54.120 challenge list or TikTok. It was just a regular like 1:30:54.160 --> 1:30:57.000 interpersonal conflict between a student and a teacher, because like 1:30:57.479 --> 1:31:00.280 that happens, like that happens just like every once in 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:03.599 a while like that. But it had nothing to do 1:31:03.640 --> 1:31:07.360 with TikTok. According to the school and according to the police, 1:31:07.520 --> 1:31:11.640 we had an investigation. A substitute teacher choke slam one 1:31:11.680 --> 1:31:13.679 of the kids in my class, and we didn't even 1:31:13.720 --> 1:31:16.240 have a TikTok. We barely had the internet back then. 1:31:17.400 --> 1:31:20.000 It was a pretty good day at school. The principle 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:22.000 had to come in and apologize. It was very fun. 1:31:23.479 --> 1:31:27.960 That's that sounds great. It was great. Yeah, so uh 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:32.519 so yeah, like in the end, we're gonna the full 1:31:32.640 --> 1:31:35.120 arc of this right starts in September with the actual 1:31:35.280 --> 1:31:37.600 real devious licks that that that that did had, that 1:31:37.640 --> 1:31:40.160 did exist. It was on TikTok, but it was just 1:31:40.280 --> 1:31:44.559 you know, stealing stuff from bathrooms, uh it, and and 1:31:44.560 --> 1:31:47.120 and then eventually kind of just like making bathrooms into 1:31:47.120 --> 1:31:51.679 a mess. Um So, but this this this takes off, 1:31:52.200 --> 1:31:55.200 it's it goes, it goes, it goes pretty pretty viral. 1:31:55.600 --> 1:31:58.240 Then TikTok starts to crack down on it, and after 1:31:58.320 --> 1:32:01.120 like three to four weeks the memes eyes it's it's 1:32:01.160 --> 1:32:03.799 you know, people, people are bored. There's too much enforcement. 1:32:03.840 --> 1:32:06.439 It's not fun. It's not fun anymore. And then we 1:32:06.560 --> 1:32:09.800 have this calendar list of challenges, right, but possibly trying 1:32:09.840 --> 1:32:12.320 to spin off of like the Dvius licks thing and 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:15.519 glaman from the previous trend, or it was perhaps just 1:32:15.560 --> 1:32:18.960 written as like, uh, like a non serious joke. But 1:32:19.000 --> 1:32:21.400 the thing is that like it's not actually found on TikTok. Right, 1:32:21.520 --> 1:32:24.479 So even if this list was originally made by a kid, uh, 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:27.240 it's it was not known by other kids, uh on 1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:31.040 a national level, either online or in person. But where 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:33.000 it does get a visibility is through adults, and not 1:32:33.080 --> 1:32:36.040 on TikTok, but on Facebook, initially being passed around by 1:32:36.080 --> 1:32:39.120 teachers and school administrators and other adults run on the 1:32:39.120 --> 1:32:43.320 Facebook platform and really accelerating from there, right, we have 1:32:43.600 --> 1:32:46.280 we have we we have Gomez and then it's all 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:49.240 over Facebook, it's all over Instagram, it's all over news articles, 1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:52.919 TV stations and eventually does go eventually does get to TikTok, 1:32:53.080 --> 1:32:54.800 but not with kids talking about it instead of with 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:58.439 teachers talking about it. But at this point, the story 1:32:58.479 --> 1:33:02.120 of the TikTok slap a teacher challenge was just too 1:33:02.360 --> 1:33:05.759 like enticing, right. It had like enough of a grain 1:33:05.800 --> 1:33:08.639 of truth by piggybacking off of the real devious licks, 1:33:09.320 --> 1:33:11.439 but it was able to grow into this entire false 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:15.000 reality because there were enough ingredients for a good story. 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:17.440 And that's where you like perceptions of truth really flourishing 1:33:17.920 --> 1:33:23.080 is good stories. Um. And then we found out a 1:33:23.120 --> 1:33:26.799 few weeks ago, Um, there was there was this article 1:33:26.920 --> 1:33:32.040 by Taylor Lawrence Uh in the Washington Post that there 1:33:32.040 --> 1:33:34.120 actually may have been some kind of behind the scenes 1:33:34.120 --> 1:33:37.719 factory making this trend to go as viral as it did. Um. 1:33:37.960 --> 1:33:40.800 And we will we will get into that after after this, 1:33:40.920 --> 1:33:43.920 after the sad break. So have fun listening to these 1:33:43.960 --> 1:33:47.960 ads and then we will talk about the behind the 1:33:48.040 --> 1:33:54.559 seams of making these these false online trends. Hello, we 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:58.080 are back. So it turns out lots of lots of 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.280 there's lots of lots of facury happening, uh, to to make, 1:34:01.320 --> 1:34:04.160 to make, to make, to make narratives, to make stories, right, 1:34:04.600 --> 1:34:08.599 it's a all you know, turns out that not everything 1:34:08.600 --> 1:34:11.960 you read on the internet is true. Uh, pretty pretty 1:34:11.960 --> 1:34:16.360 shocking revelation here. So it came out a few weeks 1:34:16.360 --> 1:34:20.840 ago that um, Facebook was actually paying one of the 1:34:20.840 --> 1:34:24.360 biggest Republican consulting firms in the country to orchestrate a 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:29.680 national campaign to turn the public opinion uh negatively towards TikTok. 1:34:31.040 --> 1:34:35.720 The campaign was it was placing it include placing like 1:34:35.720 --> 1:34:39.080 op eds and letters, two editors of like, you know, 1:34:39.680 --> 1:34:45.479 major major news outlets, promoting of false false stories about 1:34:45.600 --> 1:34:49.880 about like the growth of alleged TikTok trends that actually 1:34:49.880 --> 1:34:52.519 had started on Facebook, and then you know, trying to 1:34:52.600 --> 1:34:56.479 push reporters and politicians into helping them, you know, damage 1:34:56.600 --> 1:34:59.960 the perception of TikTok on like a nationwide level. Eventually. 1:35:00.120 --> 1:35:03.400 You know, Facebook was obviously funding this because you know, 1:35:03.439 --> 1:35:08.280 TikTok is their biggest competitor at the moment. So it's 1:35:08.280 --> 1:35:10.960 a it's actually pretty interesting. It's so it's it's it's 1:35:10.960 --> 1:35:16.839 it's with this Republican digital uh consulting firm called Targeted Victory. 1:35:16.960 --> 1:35:19.880 So this was the thing that Facebook was actually paying 1:35:19.920 --> 1:35:25.040 for to to to prompt these false stories. Uh. Targeted 1:35:25.120 --> 1:35:30.520 Victory has been routinely working for Facebook for over the years. Um, 1:35:30.560 --> 1:35:33.439 you know, they were they were involved in the sixteen 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:39.200 congressional hearings UM around Facebook doing stuff like with like 1:35:39.240 --> 1:35:41.360 election medal e stuff, you know, all the stuff related 1:35:41.360 --> 1:35:44.720 to like Cambridge Analytica. They were, they were had a 1:35:44.720 --> 1:35:46.599 small part to play in that kind of thing as well. 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.920 So they also received a lot of Republican funding. Um, 1:35:51.040 --> 1:35:53.759 they got a thing over over two d and thirty 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:58.719 seven million dollars according to data compiled by open Secrets, 1:35:59.240 --> 1:36:02.599 which is ah, it's uh that biggest biggest payments came 1:36:02.600 --> 1:36:06.799 from a national GOP congressional committee uh in America First Action, 1:36:06.880 --> 1:36:11.080 which is of a super pac ran by pro Trump folks. 1:36:12.439 --> 1:36:14.519 So that this is this is the group that was 1:36:14.640 --> 1:36:16.080 that was doing a lot of the behind the scenes 1:36:16.080 --> 1:36:22.120 stuff to specifically tai TikTok onto onto onto making it 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:25.160 look bad, to specifically make Facebook look good and push 1:36:25.200 --> 1:36:28.120 people more onto Facebook. When this article first dropped, I know, 1:36:28.520 --> 1:36:31.639 Robert you said that, hey, this is a interesting, interesting 1:36:31.640 --> 1:36:33.599 little thing that it's probably worth talking about in terms 1:36:33.640 --> 1:36:37.120 of how it affects politics and social media and like 1:36:37.160 --> 1:36:40.760 the intersection thereof yeah, maybe a little bit, so a 1:36:40.800 --> 1:36:42.720 lot of a lot of the news dropped about this 1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:47.839 because of employees with the firm were tasked to undermine 1:36:47.840 --> 1:36:50.720 TikTok through nationwide media and while being campaign and then 1:36:51.000 --> 1:36:54.320 lots of their internal emails for this effort were shared 1:36:54.320 --> 1:36:56.000 with Washington Post. So this is this is how we 1:36:56.080 --> 1:36:59.160 kind of fed out about this more recently, their task 1:36:59.400 --> 1:37:02.040 was to quote get the message out that well, meta 1:37:02.400 --> 1:37:06.439 Facebook is the current punching bag. TikTok is the real threat, 1:37:06.560 --> 1:37:08.880 especially as a fourign non app that is number one 1:37:08.880 --> 1:37:11.880 and sharing data that young teens are using, according to 1:37:11.880 --> 1:37:13.439 the director of the firm. So this is that's the 1:37:13.479 --> 1:37:15.200 type of stuff they're talking about behind the scenes in 1:37:15.320 --> 1:37:19.000 terms of how they're trying to push push stuff to 1:37:19.120 --> 1:37:22.439 get people stopped talking about how bad Facebook is. Because 1:37:22.439 --> 1:37:24.679 this is also right after all of like the Facebook 1:37:24.680 --> 1:37:26.840 Bright part stuff was happening in terms of how much 1:37:26.880 --> 1:37:31.800 Facebook pushes extremist content um to you know, boomers and 1:37:31.840 --> 1:37:34.920 stuff um. And then the other thing that they were 1:37:34.960 --> 1:37:40.320 doing was specifically trying to craft messaging to get bills 1:37:40.920 --> 1:37:46.280 past and try to get attorneys general to to focus 1:37:46.360 --> 1:37:50.800 on to focus on this too, launch investigations into how 1:37:50.880 --> 1:37:55.160 like TikTok harms children and teens. Um and that protactually 1:37:55.240 --> 1:37:57.160 was successful, so you can you can look at the 1:37:57.200 --> 1:38:00.639 emails talking about this plan, and then soon after there 1:38:00.720 --> 1:38:03.160 was actually a coalition of a state attorney general to 1:38:03.280 --> 1:38:06.080 launch a probe into whether TikTok is harmful to children 1:38:06.080 --> 1:38:08.240 and teens, So you can actually look at the behind 1:38:08.240 --> 1:38:09.880 the scenes stuff that they were trying to do and 1:38:09.880 --> 1:38:12.839 then see how fast they were successful in doing this stuff. 1:38:13.240 --> 1:38:16.400 And all. This also comes at the point that Facebook 1:38:16.479 --> 1:38:21.040 was for the first time actually losing users, and as 1:38:21.080 --> 1:38:23.280 soon as TikTok was launched and got so so much 1:38:23.320 --> 1:38:25.760 more popular and also took down a whole bunch of 1:38:25.880 --> 1:38:29.280 users from from Instagram, which was also owned by Facebook obviously, 1:38:29.560 --> 1:38:32.880 so there's there's a Facebook. Researchers said that teens were 1:38:32.880 --> 1:38:37.000 spending about three times it's more time on TikTok than Instagram. Um. 1:38:37.040 --> 1:38:38.479 And this is this is all part of the same 1:38:38.560 --> 1:38:41.280 kind of overall effort to both like do stuff to 1:38:41.320 --> 1:38:44.439 influence elections in politics, but also just do stuff to 1:38:44.560 --> 1:38:49.920 make kids think Facebook is cool, which good good luck 1:38:50.000 --> 1:38:53.200 with that one. Um. Then in terms of like the 1:38:53.240 --> 1:38:56.519 devious licks stuff. Uh. In in other emails that that 1:38:56.560 --> 1:38:59.360 were that that were leaked, Uh, we got we got 1:38:59.360 --> 1:39:04.400 a targetedctory people urging their partners to push false stories 1:39:04.640 --> 1:39:07.080 to look or you know, stories that are sometimes tied 1:39:07.120 --> 1:39:11.479 in truth but amplifying them, um, tying TikTok to various 1:39:11.520 --> 1:39:15.160 like dangerous, dangerous trends, you know, in terms of like 1:39:15.200 --> 1:39:18.360 save the children rhetoric. Right, this idea that faced that 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:21.080 that TikTok is harmful to the well being of kids. 1:39:21.560 --> 1:39:24.400 One of the emails has has a line here saying 1:39:24.439 --> 1:39:27.080 that the dream would be to get stories with headlines 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:30.559 like from dances to danger how TikTok has become the 1:39:30.560 --> 1:39:34.240 most harmful social media space for kids. So that's the 1:39:34.280 --> 1:39:39.280 type of headlines they're like trying to push. Yeah, it's 1:39:41.240 --> 1:39:43.240 one of the things that they do is trying to 1:39:43.240 --> 1:39:46.960 amplify negative TikTok coverage. They have the schoogle document titled 1:39:47.320 --> 1:39:51.719 bad TikTok Clips, which was shared internally and included links 1:39:51.760 --> 1:39:55.679 to dubious news stories sending TikTok as the original point 1:39:55.760 --> 1:40:01.400 of various like dangerous teen trends. Um. And they were 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:03.400 they were trying to like take these stories and push 1:40:03.439 --> 1:40:05.679 them out through other means, you know, so on Facebook 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.080 and stuff. Right to take any instance of this and 1:40:08.160 --> 1:40:11.439 boost it like inorganically. Right. It's people's jobs to use 1:40:11.560 --> 1:40:15.000 social media to affect public opinion. So one trend that 1:40:15.080 --> 1:40:20.120 targeted Victory specifically was enhancing was the devious licks challenge UH, 1:40:20.800 --> 1:40:24.120 including the initial one to vandalize the school property UM. 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:28.639 Through the bad TikTok Clips document, the firm was pushing 1:40:28.680 --> 1:40:31.679 stories about the devious les challenge across in in local 1:40:31.720 --> 1:40:35.920 media across Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Rhode Island, and Washington d C. 1:40:36.479 --> 1:40:38.080 I do find it interesting that they have a lot 1:40:38.080 --> 1:40:41.040 of these ones closer to Washington, d C. To specifically 1:40:41.080 --> 1:40:45.640 affect politicians, like they're doing stuff to amplify stuff to 1:40:45.760 --> 1:40:50.880 convince politicians specifically to start making political changes. UM. And 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:55.720 this actually led Senator Richard Bluementhal, a Democrat from Connecticut, 1:40:55.760 --> 1:40:58.680 to write a letter in September calling on TikTok executives 1:40:58.720 --> 1:41:02.040 to testify in front of US Senate Committee UM, saying 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:04.479 that the app has been repeatedly misused and abused to 1:41:04.479 --> 1:41:07.880 promote behavior and actions that encourage harmful and destructive acts. 1:41:08.520 --> 1:41:12.080 So yeah, like it worked. Like they're specifically targeting the 1:41:12.120 --> 1:41:14.680 type of news that politicians will see in areas that 1:41:14.720 --> 1:41:17.599 politicians live to get them to start trying to affect 1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:21.200 change around social media, specifically the social media that kids 1:41:21.320 --> 1:41:25.600 use and amplifying the social media that boomers use. Facebook, 1:41:25.640 --> 1:41:29.080 which is already is like a sesspool of spreading conservative disinformation. 1:41:29.520 --> 1:41:31.599 That's like the entire that's the entire bit that they're 1:41:31.600 --> 1:41:35.799 trying to do here. Um. And so they were working 1:41:35.800 --> 1:41:39.559 on the original September challenge. Also in October, Targeted Victory 1:41:39.720 --> 1:41:42.000 was working to spread the rumors of the slap a 1:41:42.040 --> 1:41:44.920 Teacher TikTok challenge, which as we know, was not actually 1:41:44.920 --> 1:41:48.800 a TikTok challenge. Um, but they were doing Uh. They 1:41:48.800 --> 1:41:53.240 were also contributing to inflating this this um this trend, 1:41:53.720 --> 1:41:56.800 which is funny because obviously they were being paid by Facebook. Uh, 1:41:56.880 --> 1:41:59.760 they were being paid by the gop um and you know, 1:42:00.040 --> 1:42:05.040 Facebook is the place where this actually started. Uh yeah, 1:42:05.520 --> 1:42:07.360 so you know, but like again with every if if 1:42:07.360 --> 1:42:09.160 you can tie anything to like a little bit of truth, 1:42:09.200 --> 1:42:12.200 it makes whatever story you're trying to make so much 1:42:12.240 --> 1:42:16.000 more impactful. Right, The firm was was careful to use 1:42:16.000 --> 1:42:19.000 both like genuine concerns and then just amplify them or 1:42:19.080 --> 1:42:23.519 exaggerate them into like unfounded anxieties, uh to to you know, 1:42:23.600 --> 1:42:27.200 get people to start questioning the safety of these of 1:42:27.280 --> 1:42:31.360 these applications. So it's a it's a it's actually it's 1:42:31.360 --> 1:42:33.120 actually it's like a it's a pretty clever setup that 1:42:33.200 --> 1:42:35.840 they have. They have going here, and they've been really successful. 1:42:35.960 --> 1:42:39.000 Like it's it's like, you know, the the the October 1:42:39.120 --> 1:42:42.360 devious lex trend uh with like this with slap teacher 1:42:42.680 --> 1:42:47.519 was extremely extremely, extremely successful in terms of how they 1:42:47.560 --> 1:42:50.759 affect what is seen as truth and how and how 1:42:50.800 --> 1:42:53.640 how much news story and how much news coverage was 1:42:53.760 --> 1:42:57.800 just kind of unconsciously and just mindlessly repeating the stuff 1:42:57.800 --> 1:43:02.000 that they've heard. The other funny thing that that target 1:43:02.000 --> 1:43:07.919 Targeted Victory does is, uh, they they help write letters 1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:11.800 that are from concerned parents quote unquote that gets sent 1:43:11.880 --> 1:43:14.479 out to newspapers to be published in their like letters 1:43:14.520 --> 1:43:21.920 to the editors. Yeah, so they specifically try to write 1:43:22.040 --> 1:43:25.200 op eds targeting TikTok and then place them around the country, 1:43:25.479 --> 1:43:29.240 especially in key congressional districts. UM On March twelve, a 1:43:29.320 --> 1:43:32.599 letter to the editor that Targeted Victory officials helped write 1:43:33.120 --> 1:43:36.000 ran in the in the Denver post Um. The letter 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:39.840 said it was from a concerned new parent and it 1:43:39.960 --> 1:43:43.200 claimed that TikTok was harmful to children's mental health, raising 1:43:43.240 --> 1:43:46.120 concerns over it's like, you know, data privacy, and that 1:43:46.200 --> 1:43:50.800 many people suspect that China is deliberately collecting behavioral data 1:43:50.880 --> 1:43:55.639 on our kids. They're trying to hack our children's brains. 1:43:56.080 --> 1:43:59.840 The letter also issued support for Colorado Attorney General Phil 1:44:00.439 --> 1:44:05.439 Wiser wise weight Weezers. I'm gonna say Weezer yep, yep, yep, yep, 1:44:05.600 --> 1:44:12.439 Phil Weezers, famed founder of the band Weezer. They were Yeah, 1:44:12.439 --> 1:44:15.760 But the letter issued support for him, uh, including his 1:44:15.840 --> 1:44:19.360 choice to join a coalition of of attorney general investigating 1:44:19.360 --> 1:44:23.439 TikTok's impact on American youths. So yeah. There was a 1:44:23.520 --> 1:44:28.000 very similar letter UH, drafted by Targeted Victory again that 1:44:28.080 --> 1:44:31.080 ran in in other other kind of smaller local papers 1:44:31.120 --> 1:44:34.080 throughout the country trying to link negative news stories about 1:44:34.080 --> 1:44:38.680 TikTok that Targeted Victory had specifically sought to amplify. Some 1:44:38.760 --> 1:44:40.960 of the letters that were getting circulated were signed by 1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:43.800 like members at the Democratic Party. They were, they were, 1:44:43.800 --> 1:44:46.840 they were signed by various politicians in terms of like, no, 1:44:47.040 --> 1:44:48.880 trying to create this thing that looks grassroots to the 1:44:48.920 --> 1:44:51.280 spread out and be like, hey, we have these concerns. 1:44:51.560 --> 1:44:54.040 Do you want to do you endorse our concerns so 1:44:54.080 --> 1:44:56.599 then they can then make it seem way more legit 1:44:56.640 --> 1:45:03.120 than just like a concerned parent. Uh it it's pretty good. Um. 1:45:03.120 --> 1:45:05.559 You know an email sent a few weeks ago, uh, 1:45:05.600 --> 1:45:08.840 targeted Victory asked their teams to be prepared to share 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:11.760 the opense that you're working on right now. Uh, Colorado 1:45:11.760 --> 1:45:13.560 and Iowa, can you talk? Can you talk about the 1:45:13.600 --> 1:45:15.880 TikTok opeds? You got? You? You you both you, you 1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:19.439 both got. So they're specifically targeting districts where the Senate 1:45:19.880 --> 1:45:24.240 um Senate like challenges are actually more of a more 1:45:24.479 --> 1:45:26.960 more of a toss up. So specifically trying to do 1:45:27.000 --> 1:45:30.040 this whole TikTok is dangerous to the kids thing in 1:45:30.080 --> 1:45:34.479 these in these places. It's ah, yeah, it's a it's 1:45:34.520 --> 1:45:37.759 it's it's pretty it's pretty fun. Because none of these letters, 1:45:37.840 --> 1:45:40.120 none of these op eds, if you read them, there's 1:45:40.160 --> 1:45:43.080 no indication that Facebook is funding them. There's no indication 1:45:43.080 --> 1:45:45.720 that the GOP is funding them. Um right, it's that 1:45:45.800 --> 1:45:48.040 is the it is the whole like astro AstroTurf thing, right, 1:45:48.080 --> 1:45:49.720 that is, that is the entire idea is that they 1:45:49.760 --> 1:45:54.000 look they look totally legit. So anyway, that was that 1:45:54.120 --> 1:45:57.200 was my, my, my, Those those are right notes in 1:45:57.320 --> 1:46:00.759 terms of the what the dv slick and the SABA 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:03.240 teacher thing actually was, and then how there was all 1:46:03.280 --> 1:46:05.599 this behind the scenes fac are you trying to inflate 1:46:05.640 --> 1:46:08.920 it and how it's specifically getting inflated to tie into 1:46:09.000 --> 1:46:13.479 like local elections that are happening in the mid terms. Um, yeah, 1:46:13.600 --> 1:46:16.040 what what thoughts? What thoughts do y'all have on on 1:46:16.120 --> 1:46:21.240 these on these fun, fun little disinformation rackets they have 1:46:21.479 --> 1:46:25.200 they have going on. We might do like another full 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:27.120 episode this at some point. But there's there's an interesting 1:46:27.160 --> 1:46:30.760 angle here where Facebook was sort of taking the China 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:32.439 angle on this a lot, and it's like, yeah, it 1:46:32.520 --> 1:46:34.519 comes with less than this, but yeah you in this. 1:46:34.640 --> 1:46:38.760 They they founded this, uh, they founded this advocacy group 1:46:38.760 --> 1:46:42.360 called I think it's American Edge, where they have all 1:46:42.360 --> 1:46:45.160 these things that are like, uh that was like them 1:46:45.200 --> 1:46:47.160 in a bunch of weapons manufacturers like found in this 1:46:47.200 --> 1:46:50.920 lobbying group, and they keep saying things like, oh, China 1:46:51.000 --> 1:46:55.120 is threatening our competitive edge, so we can't do antitrust legislation. 1:46:55.120 --> 1:46:57.839 If we do anti trust legislation, the Russia China alliance 1:46:57.840 --> 1:46:59.920 will like defeat the US. And so it's interesting. That's 1:46:59.920 --> 1:47:03.680 like there don't know if Facebook seems to have like 1:47:05.120 --> 1:47:07.080 well okay, so so they have this problem where like 1:47:07.120 --> 1:47:11.559 the metaverse stuff just flops and they're like, oh no, 1:47:11.600 --> 1:47:14.280 we need to make money. And it's like, well, okay, 1:47:14.320 --> 1:47:18.040 so you know there's the the the two ways to 1:47:18.040 --> 1:47:20.720 make money, or you create something that people want to use, 1:47:20.840 --> 1:47:24.720 and that's hard. That's hard. They did that once and 1:47:24.760 --> 1:47:28.439 then they accidentally turned it into an engine that breaks 1:47:28.439 --> 1:47:32.320 democracy and accelerates ethnic cleansings. So you don't want them. 1:47:32.360 --> 1:47:35.559 You don't want them trying to make another new thing. Yeah. Well, 1:47:35.880 --> 1:47:38.360 the other thing Target Victory was doing was specifically amplifying 1:47:38.600 --> 1:47:42.839 pro Facebook content. Yeah, but like how Facebook is supporting 1:47:43.040 --> 1:47:45.559 local black owned businesses and like all all all that 1:47:45.600 --> 1:47:47.320 sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, so you know, you you 1:47:47.439 --> 1:47:48.840 have that on the one hand, it's like, yeah, they're 1:47:48.840 --> 1:47:51.000 not they're not doing anything else. And the second way 1:47:51.040 --> 1:47:53.840 they you that you do this stuff by strategic sabotage 1:47:53.840 --> 1:47:56.160 of your competition. And this is what Facebook is doing 1:47:56.240 --> 1:47:58.880 right now is that they've launched basically full on in 1:47:58.960 --> 1:48:02.920 strategic sabotage angle. They've launched into this sort of like 1:48:02.920 --> 1:48:06.599 preemptive defense stuff about anti trust being like a, hey, 1:48:06.640 --> 1:48:10.040 look at China. If we uh, yeah, if we don't 1:48:10.040 --> 1:48:14.640 have tech monopolies doing genocides, China will have tech monopolies 1:48:14.680 --> 1:48:16.840 doing genocides. And it's like that's the other funny thing 1:48:16.920 --> 1:48:19.760 is that whenever Zuckerberg gets accused of trying to create 1:48:19.760 --> 1:48:24.920 monopolies around social media, he's always like, but TikTok exists, 1:48:26.920 --> 1:48:29.200 But no, It's it's great because like they they like 1:48:29.240 --> 1:48:32.120 specifically say this. They their quote is, we need to 1:48:32.120 --> 1:48:34.759 get the message out that while Facebook is the current 1:48:34.800 --> 1:48:38.160 punching bag, TikTok is the real threat, especially as a 1:48:38.200 --> 1:48:41.280 foreign owned app like that. That is that is the 1:48:41.320 --> 1:48:44.160 actual quote that looks like, yeah, they're specifically doing that 1:48:44.200 --> 1:48:47.000 exact thing. Yeah, they're the winning ars. That's n phobia 1:48:47.000 --> 1:48:49.400 angle initially because you can watch them sort of pushing 1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:52.320 all of the like the political buttons of the last 1:48:52.400 --> 1:48:54.400 few years. It's like they're they're they're they're they're basically 1:48:54.400 --> 1:48:58.080 replaying like the Trump like the Trump right stuff, right, 1:48:58.120 --> 1:49:00.280 so they figure out that rhetoric works. So they're doing Okay, 1:49:00.320 --> 1:49:03.240 they're doing this sort of like like they're doing sort 1:49:03.240 --> 1:49:06.000 of anti China's and a phobia. They're doing save the children, 1:49:06.760 --> 1:49:09.200 they're doing like they're doing all of this like your 1:49:09.240 --> 1:49:12.679 kids are unsafe stuff and yeah, it's it's working great 1:49:12.720 --> 1:49:17.920 for them, So this is this is fun. Uh yeah, yeah, no, 1:49:18.080 --> 1:49:21.320 that's they're they're they're definitely trying yep. I mean, and 1:49:21.760 --> 1:49:25.080 the specific things that targeted Victory tries to do. The 1:49:25.479 --> 1:49:28.280 place that's funded by both Facebook and the GOP is 1:49:28.320 --> 1:49:32.720 that they specialize in Uh. Well, they they say they do. 1:49:32.920 --> 1:49:38.000 They do crisis practice and corporate affairs offerings uh for 1:49:38.000 --> 1:49:41.400 for their clients growing need for the issues of management 1:49:41.439 --> 1:49:45.479 and and executive positioning, saying that it wants to focus 1:49:45.520 --> 1:49:50.120 on efforts to move towards authentic storytelling with a hyper 1:49:50.200 --> 1:49:53.599 local approach, so that that is that's all the words 1:49:53.640 --> 1:49:56.480 they used to talk about how they do grassroots disinformation 1:49:57.200 --> 1:50:02.800 authentic storytelling with a hyperlocal roach. Yeah, faking letters from 1:50:02.880 --> 1:50:05.879 parents to local news sites who are hungry for content 1:50:06.000 --> 1:50:09.240 in order to cause a moral panic about TikTok. Yeah, 1:50:09.520 --> 1:50:12.080 I mean, on average, people trust their local news way 1:50:12.080 --> 1:50:15.479 more than they trust their national news. So because they 1:50:15.479 --> 1:50:18.200 should not, because it's all read by like two companies. 1:50:18.600 --> 1:50:22.559 Yeah uh so yeah, I mean, but like they have, 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:24.000 they have a lot of money. They have, they have 1:50:24.040 --> 1:50:26.840 a lot of money. It's there, it's they're they're they're 1:50:26.880 --> 1:50:32.240 one of the biggest recipients of Republican campaigns spending now, 1:50:32.200 --> 1:50:34.719 they're receiving money from Facebook. They happen for a while, 1:50:34.760 --> 1:50:39.760 but they're spending. They're spending more money now. Uh yeah, 1:50:39.840 --> 1:50:41.600 And I think this is a it's really important to 1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:45.400 be skeptical of online trends because turns out online trends 1:50:45.479 --> 1:50:48.200 can be pretty astroturfed. I mean, we can look right 1:50:48.200 --> 1:50:50.880 now at all of the all of like the Groomer stuff. Right. 1:50:51.320 --> 1:50:53.960 Online trends do not need to be organic. Uh they're 1:50:54.160 --> 1:50:57.280 like I always say, the next time you feel like 1:50:57.360 --> 1:51:00.000 you see something on Facebook or Twitter and you feel 1:51:00.160 --> 1:51:03.400 like you want to share it because it's outrageous, instead 1:51:04.120 --> 1:51:08.240 just go set off a bomb at a power substation. Okay, 1:51:08.880 --> 1:51:13.479 just simple ethical behavior that will that that won't play 1:51:13.479 --> 1:51:15.720 into these people's hands. And in terms of all of 1:51:15.720 --> 1:51:19.960 the stuff that like with Facebook trying to specifically demonize kids, 1:51:20.000 --> 1:51:24.439 demonized TikTok um to influence elections, Like, if you're interested 1:51:24.439 --> 1:51:28.400 in what trends kids are actually into, just just like 1:51:28.439 --> 1:51:31.400 ask them, like you could talk to them like with 1:51:31.439 --> 1:51:34.320 like words and like with your mouth and use your 1:51:34.360 --> 1:51:37.479 like human ears. Uh, because it turns out they will 1:51:37.479 --> 1:51:40.240 actually explain it. Because yeah, and if just if anyone 1:51:40.280 --> 1:51:44.719 asked a kid about this list of challenges in like October, 1:51:44.800 --> 1:51:47.400 they would say, no, that's that's not a thing. That's 1:51:47.439 --> 1:51:50.280 that's not that seems something like adults are really interested in. 1:51:50.400 --> 1:51:53.360 But nope, that's not actually a thing. Just assume they're 1:51:53.400 --> 1:51:57.479 basically the same that kids always are, but with different 1:51:58.479 --> 1:52:01.840 like technology and ship. Like when I was a kid 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:05.160 and our senior class, a bunch of kids conspired to 1:52:05.200 --> 1:52:07.640 crash a car into the little pond that was on 1:52:07.720 --> 1:52:10.559 campus because it was destructive and funny. Kids like to 1:52:10.600 --> 1:52:14.120 do destructive, funny things. Kids don't like to do whatever. 1:52:14.160 --> 1:52:18.719 April egg bullshit or that's all all of the challenges 1:52:18.760 --> 1:52:21.599 that are just like sexual assaults. You're like, that's actually 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:24.840 not something that a lot of kids are into. It 1:52:24.840 --> 1:52:28.760 turns out, like think back to being in like like 1:52:28.880 --> 1:52:31.760 tenth grade, and would you have giggled at this? If so, 1:52:32.080 --> 1:52:35.200 it's probably a thing some kids have done. Like it's 1:52:35.240 --> 1:52:39.040 as simple as that. So anyway, with this is the 1:52:39.120 --> 1:52:41.360 episode we wanted to do specifically on how just like 1:52:42.200 --> 1:52:45.479 social media disinformation is trying to affect elections, leading to 1:52:45.560 --> 1:52:48.640 leading to leading into the mid terms. And then tomorrow 1:52:48.720 --> 1:52:51.880 we will discuss more midterm related stuff with all of 1:52:51.880 --> 1:52:53.400 this kind of stuff with with all of this like 1:52:53.479 --> 1:52:56.320 disafmation stuff, TikTok and Facebook stuff all kind of like 1:52:56.520 --> 1:52:58.800 floating in the back of our minds um as we 1:52:58.840 --> 1:53:01.920 move on to talking about the midterms and why and 1:53:02.439 --> 1:53:06.719 how they might you know, affect politics going forward, and 1:53:06.840 --> 1:53:08.800 you know how they might affect you know, stuff a run, 1:53:08.800 --> 1:53:13.040 climate change, stuff around different you know, mini collapses, all 1:53:13.080 --> 1:53:15.639 of that, all that good stuff. So but I think 1:53:15.760 --> 1:53:17.960 as it looks like we have we have reached the 1:53:17.960 --> 1:53:21.200 time that we need to do today, So I believe 1:53:21.240 --> 1:53:22.880 that doesn't for us this week if you want to 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:24.720 if you want to do the social media is because hey, 1:53:24.760 --> 1:53:27.840 after we talked about social media for like fifty minutes. Yeah, 1:53:27.920 --> 1:53:31.439 let's let's let's let's plug our social media. Uh Twitter 1:53:31.479 --> 1:53:34.360 and Instagram, Instagram and by Facebook at a cool zone 1:53:34.400 --> 1:53:40.040 media and happened here pod. Um Yeah anyway, Uh, listen 1:53:40.080 --> 1:54:00.200 to the kids and don't believe trends. Bye. What it's 1:54:00.280 --> 1:54:03.360 the horror of dead generations hanging off the backs of 1:54:03.400 --> 1:54:09.720 my modern everyone society? What do we? What are we 1:54:09.760 --> 1:54:12.240 doing that? I started a podcast? Are we do your job? Robert? 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:15.360 I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go take five. This is 1:54:15.400 --> 1:54:19.000 your favorite electoralism podcast. It could happen here. Um, the 1:54:19.080 --> 1:54:22.040 podcast that says, just vote about it? Come on? You 1:54:22.040 --> 1:54:25.840 know you voted? Can you vote a little harder? You 1:54:25.880 --> 1:54:29.519 know if if I could vote right right now, I would. 1:54:29.920 --> 1:54:32.840 That is how dedicated I am. I know that's everyone 1:54:32.880 --> 1:54:37.520 says that about you, Garrison, that you're always ready to vote. Oh, 1:54:37.760 --> 1:54:39.440 we have, we have, we have, we have. We have 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:42.840 an update on the TikTok thing, um which we just 1:54:43.160 --> 1:54:47.120 this this just dropped, um TikTok. Uh. There is now 1:54:47.680 --> 1:54:50.080 a new I need a new technock account launched to 1:54:50.400 --> 1:54:53.680 boost Biden with young voters. Um. It already has one 1:54:53.720 --> 1:54:57.040 hundred fans. Um. This This isn't a joke. This is 1:54:57.080 --> 1:55:00.720 actually because that sounds like like a b had like 1:55:00.800 --> 1:55:04.080 a like a Jimmy fallon Saturday Night Live Weekend Update. 1:55:05.120 --> 1:55:10.400 This is actually completely real. We have we have a 1:55:10.960 --> 1:55:15.360 government funded, Biden provided TikTok account as lunched, and it 1:55:15.400 --> 1:55:18.760 has a hundred followers. Guys, it would be funny if like, 1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:22.160 you know, like the Gravel Institute. But good, they just 1:55:22.200 --> 1:55:24.880 steered it in really radical directions. So it did start 1:55:24.920 --> 1:55:28.600 like tweeting about Zerzon and the importance of destroying time. 1:55:31.480 --> 1:55:35.920 The Biden TikTok account embraces ecological sabotage. I would I 1:55:35.920 --> 1:55:38.200 would take, I would take I would take government money 1:55:38.240 --> 1:55:40.160 if they paid me to do that, I'll say it. 1:55:40.440 --> 1:55:43.480 I'll take government money for a lot of reasons. If 1:55:43.520 --> 1:55:47.520 they paid me to make an unhinged TikTok account about 1:55:47.520 --> 1:55:49.640 how the scientists of the police, then yes, I would. 1:55:49.840 --> 1:55:51.960 I would do that. That's a fun joke for four 1:55:52.000 --> 1:55:54.360 people listening to this podcast. We're gonna talk about the 1:55:54.400 --> 1:55:59.800 mid terms. Yeah, we're account Look, the official stance of 1:55:59.800 --> 1:56:04.280 the mostly anarchists who make this podcast voting is dumb, 1:56:04.600 --> 1:56:09.760 but uh, it's also bad when certain things happen electorally, 1:56:09.920 --> 1:56:14.520 like a bunch of insane fascists winning elected office. U. 1:56:14.720 --> 1:56:17.200 Two things can be true, especially when people are really 1:56:17.240 --> 1:56:20.680 set on killing transpeople right now, Yeah, that's real problematic 1:56:21.160 --> 1:56:24.200 hashtag problematic things are gonna have It could happen as 1:56:24.240 --> 1:56:26.880 a result of the mid terms. I think the by 1:56:27.040 --> 1:56:31.600 by far predominant media narrative is that the Democrats are 1:56:31.600 --> 1:56:37.360 heading for a shellacking. Um now, is that actually going 1:56:37.400 --> 1:56:41.600 to happen? The short answer is, nobody knows, because polling 1:56:42.120 --> 1:56:44.200 we should all be we should all be accepting at 1:56:44.200 --> 1:56:47.600 this point that polling is not good at its job generally. 1:56:49.360 --> 1:56:53.320 So heads up, No one's really sure. Uh, there are 1:56:53.400 --> 1:56:56.720 certainly Number one, if this is a normal mid term 1:56:56.760 --> 1:57:01.000 election after a presidential election, Democrat rats should lose a 1:57:01.040 --> 1:57:05.000 not insubstantial amount of seats because that's just usually what happens. 1:57:05.040 --> 1:57:08.440 The only time it didn't was the midterm election right 1:57:08.440 --> 1:57:11.960 after nine eleven, and everyone was out of their minds 1:57:12.000 --> 1:57:15.120 at that point, so you can't really factor that one 1:57:15.160 --> 1:57:18.760 into the averages, and nothing like nine eleven has really happened. 1:57:18.800 --> 1:57:21.520 Like the war in Ukraine is a is a whole thing, 1:57:21.680 --> 1:57:24.000 but it's also not I'm not I'm saying any evidence 1:57:24.000 --> 1:57:26.920 that it's causing any kind of like political realignment or 1:57:27.000 --> 1:57:30.680 affecting support for Joe Biden and any meaning everyone's still 1:57:30.680 --> 1:57:33.600 pretty economy based in terms of what they're what they 1:57:33.600 --> 1:57:36.360 claimed to be their biggest factors for voting. The war 1:57:36.400 --> 1:57:40.520 in Ukraine is a huge deal obviously. Um, We've talked 1:57:40.560 --> 1:57:43.000 about it a lot on on our shows. But also 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:46.520 it's it's foreigners, and Americans don't care about foreigners when 1:57:46.520 --> 1:57:49.800 it comes to voting. So look, that's just a reality. 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:52.240 As a guy who's repeatedly trying to get Americans to 1:57:52.240 --> 1:57:56.480 care about things happening in other countries, we we don't. UM. 1:57:56.560 --> 1:58:00.120 So in the absence of anything that has caused that 1:58:00.160 --> 1:58:03.520 could cause some sort of massive political realignment, the most 1:58:03.600 --> 1:58:07.040 likely thing historically is that the Democrats are gonna lose 1:58:07.160 --> 1:58:10.640 control of one, maybe both houses of Congress UM and 1:58:10.680 --> 1:58:14.400 a modest amount of seats UM. So if that happens, 1:58:14.440 --> 1:58:19.240 if it's kind of within historical dimensions, UM, then that 1:58:19.280 --> 1:58:22.240 won't be all that weird at all. Um. If it's 1:58:22.280 --> 1:58:26.400 a huge blowout, then that's a big deal. And if 1:58:26.560 --> 1:58:30.160 the Democrats don't lose or kind of barely lose ground. 1:58:30.480 --> 1:58:32.960 Then those would both be big deals for different reasons. 1:58:33.440 --> 1:58:35.360 Um and again, no one knows what's going to happen, 1:58:35.360 --> 1:58:36.880 and no one on this podcast is going to make 1:58:36.880 --> 1:58:38.520 a prediction. We're just going to kind of try to 1:58:38.560 --> 1:58:42.800 talk about what what is sort of evident right now. Well, 1:58:42.800 --> 1:58:46.760 you're not allowed to legally make predictions, Robert, I'm I'm 1:58:46.800 --> 1:58:49.480 not allowed to legally make tradictions, although I will make 1:58:49.520 --> 1:58:53.560 one prediction, which is that at some point, at some point, 1:58:54.080 --> 1:59:00.560 we're gonna see Joe Biden's whole ass, and odds if 1:59:00.600 --> 1:59:04.720 we see the ass, odds that you can see some balls. 1:59:05.320 --> 1:59:07.960 That is. I've gone back and forth with my polling 1:59:08.000 --> 1:59:11.960 experts on this, and we're we're firm on that fifty 1:59:12.600 --> 1:59:15.920 coin flip, coin flip for the coin purse, toss up, 1:59:15.960 --> 1:59:19.360 toss up, toss up for the tossing of his salad, 1:59:19.800 --> 1:59:22.560 which might be why we see his butt. Anyway, here's 1:59:22.600 --> 1:59:24.920 here first on ticket happen here. It could it could 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:28.800 happen here, That could happen here. It's not impossible. Someone 1:59:28.880 --> 1:59:32.160 has a picture of Joe Biden's butt, right It's out there. 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:40.640 So yeah, So for every min terms of the House 1:59:40.720 --> 1:59:44.440 has h has has all their seats go up for 1:59:44.480 --> 1:59:48.240 every two years. Uh, the Senate gets gets gets one 1:59:48.280 --> 1:59:51.120 third of seats up because they serve six year terms 1:59:51.120 --> 1:59:55.160 because we like having fun here. Um. Yeah, so it's 1:59:55.200 --> 1:59:58.320 it's gonna be it's it's gonna be interesting both because yeah, 1:59:58.320 --> 2:00:02.000 I mean obvious obviously it's mostly that definitely Republicans will 2:00:02.120 --> 2:00:05.360 will win back a decent number of seats inside the 2:00:05.400 --> 2:00:09.640 inside the House and probably um make make the divide 2:00:09.640 --> 2:00:12.080 they're less extreme, um, if not actually just like take 2:00:12.120 --> 2:00:15.200 the House. Also, the Senate's obviously more more of a 2:00:15.440 --> 2:00:17.920 more of a toss up because of we're only on 2:00:18.000 --> 2:00:21.160 the Senate at the moment um, so that is definitely 2:00:21.200 --> 2:00:23.400 way more of a thing that they can totally cease. 2:00:23.440 --> 2:00:25.320 But even if they do, season that's not actually changing 2:00:25.400 --> 2:00:29.320 much because they're not we're not we're not able to 2:00:29.320 --> 2:00:34.680 pass anything through the Senate anyway. Uh they are, So 2:00:35.320 --> 2:00:39.640 it doesn't matter because yeah, I mean, like it would 2:00:39.680 --> 2:00:42.880 only really suck if m Republicans get extreme control both 2:00:42.920 --> 2:00:45.480 the House and the Senate. Um, but I think that's 2:00:45.520 --> 2:00:48.200 kind of unlikely in terms of getting like total control, 2:00:48.600 --> 2:00:51.720 and then we still have executives. So it is. Part 2:00:51.720 --> 2:00:54.600 of why it doesn't seem super likely is that, like 2:00:54.720 --> 2:00:58.000 in the last UM a couple of sets in particularly 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:02.680 mid terms, the Democrats lost basically all of their most 2:01:02.760 --> 2:01:05.400 vulnerable seats, and so a lot of the seats that 2:01:05.440 --> 2:01:09.600 are coming up are less vulnerable and so and that 2:01:09.680 --> 2:01:11.600 does mean that, like, if the Democrats lose a bunch 2:01:11.640 --> 2:01:14.320 more than again, it's a much more significant sign that 2:01:14.360 --> 2:01:19.200 we're seeing uh, pretty predicted potentially like pretty fashy political 2:01:19.280 --> 2:01:23.920 realignment in the United States. It's it again, there's not 2:01:23.960 --> 2:01:27.760 like evidence that makes me think that's particularly likely. Um, 2:01:27.800 --> 2:01:29.760 that's just what it would mean if that were to happen. 2:01:29.920 --> 2:01:31.760 And I think probably the number one thing I would 2:01:31.760 --> 2:01:35.680 expect if there were some sort of gigantic apocle shift 2:01:35.880 --> 2:01:39.640 where the Republicans wind up with like sixty percent of 2:01:39.640 --> 2:01:42.400 the seats in Congress or something like that, UM, is 2:01:42.400 --> 2:01:44.600 they're going to try to Impeachy like they would have 2:01:44.680 --> 2:01:47.640 to write if they in control of both how like 2:01:47.680 --> 2:01:50.640 they would have to try and impeach Biden because of 2:01:50.640 --> 2:01:54.000 the rhetoric. It's the bit, you know, which again I 2:01:54.080 --> 2:01:56.120 don't I'm not saying I don't think that is particularly 2:01:56.160 --> 2:01:59.120 likely based on what we're seeing, but like if that happens, 2:01:59.120 --> 2:02:01.680 they're going to do that at yeah, I mean it's 2:02:01.680 --> 2:02:03.840 not even a prediction. That's just like, well they've been 2:02:03.880 --> 2:02:06.440 talking about it because like because like on average, the 2:02:06.440 --> 2:02:10.120 president's party has lost about thirty thirty House seats during 2:02:10.160 --> 2:02:12.800 mid terms over the course of the last century. UM, 2:02:12.840 --> 2:02:16.280 and Republicans only need to gain five seats to win 2:02:16.320 --> 2:02:19.800 the Chamber. But now now gaining five seats is not 2:02:19.840 --> 2:02:24.720 the same as winning five seats obviously, Yes, like the 2:02:24.760 --> 2:02:27.120 party needs to needs at least two eighteen seats to 2:02:27.120 --> 2:02:30.320 win control of the House. So Republicans are actually they 2:02:30.320 --> 2:02:31.600 have to flip. They have to they have to do 2:02:31.640 --> 2:02:33.920 the flipping um, and they have to flip actually a 2:02:33.920 --> 2:02:36.120 good number of them because again the seats that they do, 2:02:36.760 --> 2:02:39.080 the seats that that Democrats currently have are all like 2:02:39.320 --> 2:02:43.240 pretty firmly democrat UM. So there's there is there is 2:02:43.280 --> 2:02:44.880 less toss ups. And the other thing that's kind of 2:02:44.920 --> 2:02:49.640 interesting is that the redistricting process that has been going 2:02:49.640 --> 2:02:52.520 on in the past bit has seemed to kind of favor, 2:02:53.120 --> 2:02:58.920 uh favor democrats. So interesting, if you want to have 2:02:58.960 --> 2:03:02.000 a good time, go go look at what go look 2:03:02.040 --> 2:03:04.040 at what the Democrats did to the Illinois map. It 2:03:04.200 --> 2:03:07.800 is hilarious between like there is a district that is 2:03:07.840 --> 2:03:10.720 like it starts in the like in the north in 2:03:10.760 --> 2:03:13.520 the south side of the south side of Chicago, and 2:03:13.640 --> 2:03:18.600 the district ends like literally like like nine tenths of 2:03:18.640 --> 2:03:21.520 the way down the state, like a tiny town in 2:03:21.520 --> 2:03:24.680 seven Illinois. And it's like, it's really funny because like 2:03:24.680 --> 2:03:26.160 like eighty percent of what was going on there was 2:03:26.200 --> 2:03:31.320 like Solenodonois like elected a Nazi to the house. Amocrats 2:03:31.320 --> 2:03:33.960 were like, how how can we well if funny thing 2:03:34.000 --> 2:03:36.240 is also said they didn't even do the optimal jerrymander 2:03:36.320 --> 2:03:41.160 because their cowards and fools. But yeah, like this, you know, okay, 2:03:41.200 --> 2:03:45.040 like the maps are always constantly jerrymandered. And part of 2:03:45.040 --> 2:03:47.040 the reason the Democrats have been just like getting smashed 2:03:47.080 --> 2:03:48.880 for the last decade is that when they lost a 2:03:48.960 --> 2:03:53.520 dozen ten election, they lost control of like the gerrymandering, 2:03:54.200 --> 2:03:57.919 and so that like fucked them for like a decade 2:03:58.000 --> 2:04:01.320 and they've gotten to a session that is slightly better 2:04:01.440 --> 2:04:05.240 for them. But you know, again, like the important thing 2:04:05.240 --> 2:04:07.600 to actually take away here is it like basically every 2:04:07.640 --> 2:04:10.440 like every every election that happens in the US on 2:04:10.720 --> 2:04:13.240 like for the house is rigged like before it starts 2:04:13.680 --> 2:04:16.200 like at least partially because jay mandering is just legal 2:04:16.240 --> 2:04:18.160 and you could do it. I mean, it's amazing to 2:04:18.160 --> 2:04:20.360 me that they're they're connecting these little rural areas to 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:22.720 the south side of Chicago because and I'm sure you're 2:04:22.720 --> 2:04:24.840 aware of this, Christopher, it's the baddest part of town. 2:04:25.080 --> 2:04:27.320 And and if you go there, you just better be 2:04:27.360 --> 2:04:32.280 aware of a man named Lee Roy Brown. Now you 2:04:32.280 --> 2:04:35.200 know Lee Roy Brown. It stood about six ft four um. 2:04:35.760 --> 2:04:38.160 All those downtown ladies called him tree top Lever. All 2:04:38.160 --> 2:04:40.720 the men just called him, sir, you know, bad badly 2:04:40.800 --> 2:04:43.480 Roy Brown, baddest man in the whole, baddest man in 2:04:43.520 --> 2:04:46.200 the whole. Damn. This is important electoral stuff, Sophie. He 2:04:46.240 --> 2:04:48.840 could win. He's badder than old King Kong and meaner 2:04:48.840 --> 2:04:54.480 than a junkyard dog. So all of so, um, about 2:04:54.480 --> 2:04:57.360 sixty one house races are seen to be viewed as 2:04:57.360 --> 2:05:01.360 competitive out of four hundred thirty five um. But out 2:05:01.360 --> 2:05:07.520 of those amazing democracy yeah so and and and out 2:05:07.520 --> 2:05:10.400 of those sixty one, only about sixteen are actually kind 2:05:10.400 --> 2:05:12.680 of viewed as toss ups. At the moment, with seven 2:05:12.680 --> 2:05:15.280 of those seats currently helped by Republicans, eight of them 2:05:15.320 --> 2:05:18.080 being helped with Democrats, and one new seat in the 2:05:18.240 --> 2:05:22.160 in the state of Colorado. UM. So yeah, like it 2:05:22.240 --> 2:05:24.800 does seem like in order for Republicans to really get 2:05:24.840 --> 2:05:27.680 more controlled the House, they have to actually flip more 2:05:27.840 --> 2:05:32.720 traditionally democratic uh territories, So like they're kind of they 2:05:32.720 --> 2:05:34.520 have to do most of that the actual like work here, 2:05:35.080 --> 2:05:38.880 um to actually get those things flipped. But again, I 2:05:39.160 --> 2:05:41.680 don't I don't trust democrats ability to be able to 2:05:41.720 --> 2:05:46.360 hold on to what they have anyway, So who knows. Yeah, 2:05:46.400 --> 2:05:49.200 I mean, it's it's one of those things. There's a 2:05:49.200 --> 2:05:52.520 lot of talk about like how incompetent the Democrats are, 2:05:52.560 --> 2:05:55.520 And there's a pretty interesting article that dropped, oh gosh, 2:05:55.520 --> 2:05:58.880 where was it about how millennial support for Democrats is, 2:05:58.880 --> 2:06:02.680 like it its lowest point in recent memory. Under why 2:06:03.360 --> 2:06:07.680 yea millennial here, it's because they don't do anything. It's 2:06:07.720 --> 2:06:09.800 because they say they're going to do a number of 2:06:09.920 --> 2:06:14.640 very popular things and then do not do them. Again, 2:06:15.080 --> 2:06:17.760 the people who gerrymanded all these districts, and as a 2:06:17.800 --> 2:06:20.680 general rule, just the data we have on how midterms 2:06:20.720 --> 2:06:23.240 seem to go all factors in the fact that that 2:06:23.360 --> 2:06:26.920 young people don't vote. You know, um, so the fact 2:06:26.920 --> 2:06:29.400 that the Democrats are worse than normal with youth may 2:06:29.440 --> 2:06:32.080 not actually have a huge impact on the mid terms 2:06:32.160 --> 2:06:35.960 at this state, especially again there's not as many at 2:06:36.040 --> 2:06:39.240 least based on the polling we have, which is again imperfect, 2:06:39.360 --> 2:06:43.280 doesn't seem like there's a tremendous amount of super competitive districts. No, 2:06:43.440 --> 2:06:45.920 and it does seem to be the group of people 2:06:45.960 --> 2:06:48.200 that will be the most interesting deciding factor right now 2:06:48.680 --> 2:06:52.560 is boomer women seems to be the one are actually 2:06:52.640 --> 2:06:59.400 they're going. I don't like that boomers are allowed to vote. 2:07:00.440 --> 2:07:02.360 Get him out of there. Get him out of there. 2:07:02.440 --> 2:07:05.200 On on that note, should we take a quick little 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:10.160 addie break. You know who else doesn't want you to vote? 2:07:10.800 --> 2:07:14.360 It's it's the Washington State Patrol, the oligarchs who support 2:07:14.440 --> 2:07:20.360 this podcast. Uh, we're back and we're again talking about 2:07:20.440 --> 2:07:22.680 the elections in the South side of Chicago. And there's 2:07:22.680 --> 2:07:24.320 a lot of reasons to wonder how this is going 2:07:24.360 --> 2:07:26.200 to go. And I just want to point out that 2:07:26.280 --> 2:07:28.839 Leroy Brown keeps a thirty two guns in his pocket 2:07:28.880 --> 2:07:31.480 for fun and a razoring issue, which should be factored 2:07:31.480 --> 2:07:33.880 in when you're thinking about, you know, how things might 2:07:33.920 --> 2:07:37.880 go down on election day. Thank you, thank you for that, 2:07:38.040 --> 2:07:43.280 for that critical analysis from Robert Evans. Um. Yeah really 2:07:43.320 --> 2:07:46.960 really on the cusp of there, thank you. Yeah, it's uh, 2:07:47.040 --> 2:07:49.000 we are we are, We are lucky to have such 2:07:49.120 --> 2:07:52.360 an academic mind on the pod. I say that a lot, 2:07:52.440 --> 2:07:56.080 but I'm glad someone else's finally, Uh, should we talk 2:07:56.400 --> 2:07:59.600 uh Senate? Senate seats that are potentially going to flip? 2:07:59.680 --> 2:08:02.120 Even the Garrison doesn't want to. Yeah. I read the 2:08:02.200 --> 2:08:04.000 article and I didn't. I found it kind of boring 2:08:04.080 --> 2:08:08.400 and I didn't find them to say anything super interesting. Um, 2:08:08.440 --> 2:08:10.640 but yes we can. So one of the one of 2:08:10.680 --> 2:08:14.600 the ones we got here is in Pennsylvania. Is that 2:08:14.640 --> 2:08:18.600 the one that's open? It is the one that is open? Um? 2:08:18.680 --> 2:08:23.720 So yeah, this is uh the seat the scene. The 2:08:23.720 --> 2:08:26.720 scene opened up when the Republican Senator Pat too Many 2:08:27.000 --> 2:08:29.400 good for him for having a funny name, announced that 2:08:29.400 --> 2:08:31.200 he would not be announced, that he would not be 2:08:31.240 --> 2:08:34.680 having he would not be running for re election. So 2:08:34.680 --> 2:08:38.160 so yeah, there's the lieutenant governor is running in the 2:08:38.160 --> 2:08:41.880 Democratic primary and raising a good good deal of money. Um, 2:08:42.400 --> 2:08:46.640 that's cool. Yeah, it's a it's a yeah, it's a 2:08:47.680 --> 2:08:51.360 Trump has a Trump has a has has has stepped in, 2:08:51.800 --> 2:08:55.280 uh to fight between between the two the two uh, 2:08:55.560 --> 2:08:58.840 the two candidates which we have David David McCormick, which 2:08:58.880 --> 2:09:02.320 is a former hedge fund manager, and his Republican opposer 2:09:02.800 --> 2:09:07.920 is a friend of the pod dcor Memas. Oh yeah, 2:09:08.360 --> 2:09:10.440 I love that. I love that. I have to care 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:16.760 about a fight between doctor Oz and a hedge fund manager. Awesome. 2:09:17.320 --> 2:09:19.880 And do you want to guess who Trump endorsed between 2:09:19.920 --> 2:09:23.040 the hedge fund manister and the and the good doctor. 2:09:23.240 --> 2:09:25.640 It's got to be doctor Oz. Yes, of course it is. 2:09:26.880 --> 2:09:31.880 They let Doctor Oz speak at Sea Pack. Yeah, so immediate, 2:09:32.400 --> 2:09:36.040 which is funny because the hedge fund guy specifically went 2:09:36.160 --> 2:09:42.200 to Marlago to to like help get Trump's support, um, 2:09:42.320 --> 2:09:46.320 and then Trump endorsed doctor was he was he like? 2:09:46.600 --> 2:09:50.480 Was he like, hey, like, what's your TV ratings? I 2:09:50.480 --> 2:09:53.080 don't know if you you don't have a t like 2:09:53.240 --> 2:09:57.040 you were not? Oh no, no, no. Trump is not 2:09:57.120 --> 2:09:59.400 a dumb man. He's just a very focused one. And 2:09:59.440 --> 2:10:01.640 the only thing he is focused on is the same 2:10:01.680 --> 2:10:06.720 thing that Dr Oz is good at. Yes, getting um 2:10:06.760 --> 2:10:08.560 so yeah, it's. It's seemed to be kind of a 2:10:08.600 --> 2:10:12.320 toss up between these two Republican candidates. Both both are 2:10:12.440 --> 2:10:15.000 both are pretty wealthy, both are spending millions and millions 2:10:15.000 --> 2:10:18.560 and millions of dollars um and it's it's it is. 2:10:18.640 --> 2:10:21.120 It is expected to be the most expensive race in 2:10:21.120 --> 2:10:23.720 the whole country because of the hedge fund guy, because 2:10:23.760 --> 2:10:27.200 of Dr Oz and then then the one Democrat, Lieutenant 2:10:27.240 --> 2:10:30.960 Governor John fetterman Um, who seems to who is racing 2:10:31.000 --> 2:10:34.280 a lot of money for on on on the the 2:10:34.320 --> 2:10:38.720 from the Democratic establishment. So yeah, um, that's that's the 2:10:38.760 --> 2:10:42.960 metal head, right. I don't know, I don't know. I 2:10:43.000 --> 2:10:47.320 want to talk about Ohio for a second, because there's 2:10:47.360 --> 2:10:50.040 been some stuff out of there. That is it is 2:10:50.080 --> 2:10:52.920 because it is also open. Yeah, so it's open. And 2:10:52.920 --> 2:10:56.240 the guy he's running on the Democratic side is Tim Ryan, 2:10:56.400 --> 2:11:00.920 who's like a weirdo and like it's sort of been 2:11:00.920 --> 2:11:02.760 a like on the right, we need Democratic party for 2:11:02.800 --> 2:11:05.920 a long time. But like so Tim Brian's doing this 2:11:06.000 --> 2:11:12.200 like it's being called economic populism. Oh where Okay, Yeah, 2:11:12.720 --> 2:11:17.880 so let's let's cut out of the Yeah, so so 2:11:17.960 --> 2:11:21.200 let's let's let's let's let's let's read some Ryan quotes. China. 2:11:21.320 --> 2:11:26.360 It's definitely China. One word China. It's us versus China. This, 2:11:26.360 --> 2:11:29.960 this is this is his His campaign basically is lyrical, genius. 2:11:30.000 --> 2:11:32.280 What are you talking about? I mean, I gotta say 2:11:32.440 --> 2:11:36.600 it seems very hinged. For one, Yeah, super hinged. It's 2:11:36.600 --> 2:11:38.480 an interesting thing because it's like, Okay, so he's trying 2:11:38.520 --> 2:11:40.200 to do the like we're gonna we're gonna do that 2:11:40.240 --> 2:11:42.360 kind of populism. We're talking about how China is like 2:11:42.680 --> 2:11:44.680 taking jobs away from the rest belt. It's also funny 2:11:44.680 --> 2:11:48.280 because like he's against Medicare for all like so like 2:11:48.400 --> 2:11:51.360 he's like he's like not like he's not actually like 2:11:51.360 --> 2:11:55.160 like like on the left inning seriously, but you know, 2:11:55.200 --> 2:11:57.280 and there's there's this whole thing like he's he's running 2:11:57.280 --> 2:11:59.680 as a NAFTA, which is interesting because like you know, 2:11:59.680 --> 2:12:03.160 if in terms of populism, like Obama did run on that, 2:12:03.200 --> 2:12:06.240 like Obama ran on get on on being against NAFTA. 2:12:06.320 --> 2:12:08.640 This is part of how we just like absolutely claw birds, 2:12:08.760 --> 2:12:12.680 uh John McCain. But like you know, the Democrats ever 2:12:12.720 --> 2:12:15.280 will literally never do anything about that. But like yeah, 2:12:15.560 --> 2:12:17.000 you know, but there's there's the there's this whole sort 2:12:17.040 --> 2:12:19.840 of factor here where Bryan's big thing as he's anti China, 2:12:20.840 --> 2:12:24.400 and he's anti China. He he tried to be the 2:12:24.440 --> 2:12:27.960 House speaker multiple times. Yeah, and and there's just you know, 2:12:28.120 --> 2:12:31.440 the thing that's interesting about it is is so he's 2:12:31.440 --> 2:12:33.600 getting a lot of support for the like he looks 2:12:33.600 --> 2:12:36.160 so Asian American groups in Ohio, We're like, hey, what 2:12:36.200 --> 2:12:38.880 the funk are you doing? And he was just like, yeah, 2:12:38.920 --> 2:12:41.520 I don't care um and just kept doing it. And 2:12:41.520 --> 2:12:45.240 and it's interesting because there's this sort of like he's 2:12:45.280 --> 2:12:49.360 getting a lot of support from like Republicans for this, 2:12:49.560 --> 2:12:51.480 Like you, there's there's been a lot of columnis from 2:12:51.480 --> 2:12:53.840 sort of Republican columnists who are like, wow, I'm pro 2:12:54.000 --> 2:12:57.160 free trade, but also like this whole opposing China thing 2:12:58.240 --> 2:13:00.560 is good. And I think it's there is an interesting 2:13:00.640 --> 2:13:03.440 dynamic going on here where you have this like that 2:13:03.520 --> 2:13:06.839 this is a very very old tradition in American American 2:13:07.080 --> 2:13:10.160 I guess you could call it American labor of there 2:13:10.200 --> 2:13:12.640 being this kind of like, well, okay, so the solution 2:13:12.720 --> 2:13:14.880 twelve Recono problems is that China's taking our jobs away. 2:13:14.880 --> 2:13:16.400 I mean, like you can see this like literally in 2:13:16.400 --> 2:13:18.400 the eight hundreds, this was happening. And you know what 2:13:18.440 --> 2:13:21.720 happened in the eight hundred was that they ethnically cleansed 2:13:21.760 --> 2:13:25.160 the entire West Coast and like most of the the 2:13:25.280 --> 2:13:27.800 sun Bolt States, yeah south like that. Yeah, you know 2:13:28.280 --> 2:13:30.120 a lot of the stats mining going on this. Yeah, 2:13:30.120 --> 2:13:31.680 this is they just like ethnically cleansed all of the 2:13:31.720 --> 2:13:34.320 Asian people out. And you know, this is I think 2:13:34.360 --> 2:13:38.040 worrying in a lot of ways. It's the Democrats so 2:13:38.120 --> 2:13:42.520 far haven't really gone as hard on this as they 2:13:42.520 --> 2:13:49.720 were going in. But this kind of stuff gets really 2:13:49.800 --> 2:13:54.520 really bad really quickly. And you know, okay, like the 2:13:55.000 --> 2:13:57.800 worst the anti Asian violence has been largely colonivirus stuff. 2:13:57.800 --> 2:13:59.640 But like if you go back to the eighties when 2:13:59.800 --> 2:14:02.720 this exact same thing was happening with Japan, that got 2:14:02.880 --> 2:14:07.880 really really bad very quickly. People got murdered, um, a 2:14:07.880 --> 2:14:11.800 lot of psychocrip and books were written with bots that 2:14:11.840 --> 2:14:15.840 are very racist now in retrospective, and you know, and 2:14:16.160 --> 2:14:18.120 I think I think it's important to remind people that, like, 2:14:19.360 --> 2:14:21.440 you know, like, yeah, they're like there there were a 2:14:21.440 --> 2:14:23.320 lot of jobs that got moved from the US to 2:14:23.400 --> 2:14:25.960 China and that happened because corporations were trying to find 2:14:26.160 --> 2:14:28.680 a where we're where we're you know, like this this 2:14:28.800 --> 2:14:31.360 is the thing that corporations did not like the Chinese people. 2:14:31.840 --> 2:14:33.720 And the other part of the reason it happened was 2:14:33.720 --> 2:14:37.120 that the Chinese government fucking murdered, like literally, like just 2:14:37.240 --> 2:14:40.879 machine guns a bunch of trade unionists outside of Tieneman 2:14:41.320 --> 2:14:43.720 and you know that, like that that had the effectors 2:14:43.840 --> 2:14:46.080 like shattering whatever was sort of left of the Chinese 2:14:46.120 --> 2:14:50.040 work organization of Chinese working class. And so the factory 2:14:50.040 --> 2:14:53.800 worker in China who is making like if they're lucky, 2:14:54.560 --> 2:14:58.600 maybe like sixteen dollars a year is not your enemy, 2:14:59.320 --> 2:15:02.080 despite what fucking Tim Bryan and all these assholes are 2:15:02.160 --> 2:15:04.680 are trying to tell you. It's that's it's just it's 2:15:04.520 --> 2:15:07.040 just it's it's not true. And the reason they're doing 2:15:07.040 --> 2:15:09.240 this is because they're trying to get you to not 2:15:09.760 --> 2:15:12.080 look at the people who are actually stealing all your money. 2:15:12.200 --> 2:15:17.280 So he also seems pretty pro cop. Yeah, he sucks. Oh, 2:15:17.280 --> 2:15:20.720 the Democrats are all pro cop. Now we have completely 2:15:20.760 --> 2:15:24.280 turned turned around on that one. They were only anti 2:15:24.400 --> 2:15:28.080 cop for eleven minutes in when everyone was was scared 2:15:28.120 --> 2:15:30.840 that things were going to go Minneapolis in a lot 2:15:30.880 --> 2:15:35.040 more places. The in that eleven minutes was when Nancy 2:15:35.040 --> 2:15:39.160 Polis that eleven minutes ruled though not that part of it, 2:15:39.200 --> 2:15:41.400 but a lot of parts of that part. That part 2:15:42.840 --> 2:15:45.520 when when when the CEO of Target had to come 2:15:45.520 --> 2:15:49.000 out and be like, it's cool if people, Yeah, that 2:15:49.120 --> 2:15:52.240 was maybe the peak. You know well, and I will 2:15:52.280 --> 2:15:54.840 say this if if you if you want that back, 2:15:55.080 --> 2:15:56.960 you can do it again. You just have to you 2:15:57.000 --> 2:15:58.680 just have to burn a bunch of police stations and 2:15:59.120 --> 2:16:06.880 riot and lute thing. So, yeah, someone that that's a 2:16:06.920 --> 2:16:09.080 thing that could happen and if it were could happen 2:16:09.160 --> 2:16:15.760 here has I hope that Georgia doesn't flip? Yeah, let's 2:16:15.800 --> 2:16:18.200 let's talk about let's talk about let's talk about Georgia. Um, 2:16:18.400 --> 2:16:23.960 talk about Georgia because yeah, we got Raphael Uh that's 2:16:23.960 --> 2:16:26.720 what Yeah, is it running for his first full term 2:16:26.760 --> 2:16:30.960 after winning the special election last year. Um, so yeah, 2:16:31.000 --> 2:16:35.720 he's obviously trying to trying to, like since since Biden 2:16:35.800 --> 2:16:39.320 barely barely won Georgia in the in the last election, 2:16:39.680 --> 2:16:42.800 trying to kind of ride off of that that energy. 2:16:43.400 --> 2:16:47.360 But Biden's approval like everywhere nationally, but in Georgia, his 2:16:47.360 --> 2:16:51.280 approval is taken quite the nose dive um with like 2:16:51.360 --> 2:16:57.360 only like saying they approve of Biden's performance on the job, um. 2:16:57.400 --> 2:17:00.760 And then on the on the Republican side, we got 2:17:00.800 --> 2:17:04.120 the guy leading the race is a formal former NFL 2:17:04.320 --> 2:17:09.560 running back Herschel Walker. Um. So he he has he has, 2:17:09.680 --> 2:17:13.000 he has Trump's endorsement. Um. So he's trying to trying 2:17:13.040 --> 2:17:15.840 to run off that. But he's he's pretty new, so 2:17:15.920 --> 2:17:20.560 it's kind of he's on, he's more, he's more, he's 2:17:20.680 --> 2:17:22.680 it's it's unclear because he doesn't have a lot of 2:17:22.720 --> 2:17:27.160 political background, so who knows what's gonna what's gonna, what's 2:17:27.160 --> 2:17:30.560 gonna happen there? Um Well, And it's also one of 2:17:30.560 --> 2:17:35.880 the reasons why we're not one is that while as 2:17:35.920 --> 2:17:39.200 has been shown, people in his district aren't big fans 2:17:39.200 --> 2:17:42.039 of Biden, they just really were tired of Donald Trump. 2:17:42.120 --> 2:17:43.920 So it is kind of a question is to like, well, 2:17:43.920 --> 2:17:46.959 what is the degree to which trump endorsement's gotta matter 2:17:47.040 --> 2:17:49.920 a ton in this because the fact that they're now 2:17:50.560 --> 2:17:53.920 don't like Biden very much does not necessarily mean they're 2:17:54.000 --> 2:17:56.520 less exhausted at the thought of a Trump type guy 2:17:56.560 --> 2:17:59.880 coming in again, So another and another rise. It's so 2:18:00.040 --> 2:18:03.879 been is actually North Carolina? Um, which is which which 2:18:03.920 --> 2:18:10.520 is intriguing. Um. So that's huh why, Well, North Carolina 2:18:10.560 --> 2:18:13.920 has always had a pretty a reasonably prominent left like 2:18:13.959 --> 2:18:16.080 it gets kind of like loved in by Democrats, is 2:18:16.080 --> 2:18:18.040 like a right wing state, but it's not. I mean, 2:18:18.120 --> 2:18:20.840 there's certainly strong elements of that. There's a lot going 2:18:20.840 --> 2:18:24.160 on in North Carolina. Yeah, I mean the person that 2:18:24.160 --> 2:18:28.920 they're they're trying to run is uh is uh Cherry Beastley, 2:18:29.040 --> 2:18:31.520 which is the first black woman to serve as a 2:18:31.600 --> 2:18:34.440 chief justice on the state Supreme Court. Um, so she 2:18:34.520 --> 2:18:38.920 will probably when the primary Republicans are still flip flopping 2:18:39.320 --> 2:18:42.160 between their Trump back to candidate UM and the former 2:18:42.200 --> 2:18:47.400 governor Pat McCrary. UM. So it's that's that's still still 2:18:47.480 --> 2:18:53.039 kind of retiring, is it is it? Uh? Yeah, Richard 2:18:53.080 --> 2:18:59.280 Burr is retiring Republican Richard. So yeah, it seems like 2:19:01.160 --> 2:19:04.080 Republicans don't really think Cherry Viasley is going to be 2:19:04.160 --> 2:19:09.520 much of a threat. Um. And again, Biden's appropriating is 2:19:09.560 --> 2:19:15.040 also nose diving at around UM. So it's it's the 2:19:15.360 --> 2:19:20.400 Democrats they can just hopefully, hopefully wish that there's because 2:19:20.400 --> 2:19:22.040 of the vote is so split on the on the 2:19:22.080 --> 2:19:25.960 Republican side, if they can stoke stoke, stoke divisions there 2:19:25.959 --> 2:19:27.840 and just go spy. But they don't seem to be 2:19:27.879 --> 2:19:29.880 doing much much of work in North Carolina actually in 2:19:30.000 --> 2:19:35.800 terms of trying to like a gain ground. So yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:19:35.920 --> 2:19:39.600 it's because again, like the primary is going to be 2:19:39.720 --> 2:19:43.720 in May, so it's there's there's enough time to get 2:19:43.760 --> 2:19:49.680 support behind one Republican candidate. So let's see. I don't 2:19:49.720 --> 2:19:52.879 I think that's all of the ones that are open races. 2:19:53.360 --> 2:19:55.880 But we also got more more stuff like in like 2:19:55.920 --> 2:20:03.440 a Nevada, Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida, Florida. But I oh yeah, 2:20:03.520 --> 2:20:07.600 flow ride at one two in the Eurovision Awards representing 2:20:07.640 --> 2:20:13.560 San Marino. Back in it's Rubio seat that it is Rubio. Yes, 2:20:14.680 --> 2:20:16.400 that would be so fun. I would like I do 2:20:16.560 --> 2:20:19.080 enjoy the thought of bad things happening tomorrow. That would 2:20:19.080 --> 2:20:22.200 be so fun. Yeah. Currently Rubio is leading in the polls, 2:20:22.320 --> 2:20:26.240 but it's not it's not uh, it isn't above it 2:20:26.360 --> 2:20:29.480 is so it is, it's it's pretty it's still it's 2:20:29.520 --> 2:20:33.959 it's close, but I'm not gonna get let down by Florida. 2:20:34.120 --> 2:20:38.840 I refuse. You can't never expect good things from Florida 2:20:38.959 --> 2:20:43.080 or Texas. Yeah that is. That is the general rule. 2:20:43.320 --> 2:20:49.240 And never count out North Carolina. Yeah sure that is 2:20:48.800 --> 2:20:53.000 as a Texan, do count out Texas. Look if it happens, 2:20:53.000 --> 2:20:55.280 if and it's good, that that will be lovely, but 2:20:55.640 --> 2:20:58.880 don't don't hinge your mental health on it. Well, um, 2:20:59.000 --> 2:21:01.000 do you know what you should your mental health on 2:21:01.320 --> 2:21:04.760 the products and services that support this podcast? That is right, Robert, 2:21:04.879 --> 2:21:08.320 You guys a little bit too literal to our major advertiser, Garrison. 2:21:11.080 --> 2:21:16.520 That's why I didn't. I also hope Rubio gets kicked. Sophie, Oh, 2:21:16.680 --> 2:21:19.920 welcome back. We're talking about the thing I was just 2:21:19.959 --> 2:21:24.000 gonna make threats of violence against an last sitting representative. 2:21:24.080 --> 2:21:26.160 But that is one of our favorite things, isn't It 2:21:26.200 --> 2:21:28.760 is one of our favorite things. That's why we're launching 2:21:28.760 --> 2:21:32.960 a new podcast, the Actionable Threats against Congressman Cast. Do 2:21:33.000 --> 2:21:37.039 we know anything about the person who is running against Rubio? 2:21:37.400 --> 2:21:40.200 Do they have a chance? Do they have a chance? 2:21:40.520 --> 2:21:43.440 That is a good question to so probably not. But 2:21:44.000 --> 2:21:47.360 because you can't rely on Florida. As we discussed Vale 2:21:47.640 --> 2:21:55.800 Vowel Val Dennings is waging the fight against against Rubio. Um, 2:21:55.840 --> 2:21:58.800 and uh, it looks like the funding is actually pretty 2:21:59.000 --> 2:22:02.040 pretty pretty alert in terms of both having around twenty 2:22:02.040 --> 2:22:05.640 million dollars in funding. Um. But there is a lot 2:22:05.680 --> 2:22:10.520 of other democratic challengers. Uh, there's but I mean the 2:22:10.560 --> 2:22:12.360 Devils is the one that's going to do it, but 2:22:12.400 --> 2:22:14.200 there's a shocking amount of others. Like there's still like 2:22:14.240 --> 2:22:17.040 other millions of dollars getting spent on other challengers which 2:22:17.040 --> 2:22:20.640 are not going to succeed. Again, great, great, great way 2:22:20.680 --> 2:22:24.920 to do democracy. Yeah, we really have it locked down. Um. 2:22:24.959 --> 2:22:27.760 It is cool that Santa Claus is running for governor 2:22:27.920 --> 2:22:32.280 of Alaska and see they have a first past the 2:22:32.320 --> 2:22:34.680 post system. I think he's running for governor. Yeah, Santa 2:22:34.680 --> 2:22:37.400 Claus is. Yeah, there's a guy who's the mayor of 2:22:37.520 --> 2:22:40.000 the North Pole, which is a town in Alaska, who 2:22:40.080 --> 2:22:43.080 legally changed his name to Santa Claus. That's funny. You know, 2:22:43.160 --> 2:22:46.200 he's a big Bernie supporter. That is that. Okay, that's 2:22:46.200 --> 2:22:49.240 pretty rad. It is pretty too, because I know Santa 2:22:49.280 --> 2:22:54.320 Claus has been doing more more acting recently. So yes, 2:22:54.800 --> 2:22:56.959 I mean I can't wait to see the new crash 2:22:57.040 --> 2:23:00.600 More film. I'm pretty excited about as well. For Santa. 2:23:00.720 --> 2:23:05.760 Vote for done Leavy, vote for Santa. Yeah. So what 2:23:05.800 --> 2:23:07.640 do we? What do we do? We? The other thing 2:23:07.680 --> 2:23:11.080 I wanted to mention is that, um, is that in 2:23:11.200 --> 2:23:14.080 terms of like, you know, the other recurring bit we've 2:23:14.120 --> 2:23:20.920 been having is uh, people thinking that elections aren't actually real. Um, 2:23:20.240 --> 2:23:26.039 a fun bit. So we have only scented Republicans are 2:23:26.040 --> 2:23:31.199 confident that that the midterms will be conducted fairly and accurately. Um. 2:23:31.240 --> 2:23:33.800 So that's less than half that you know, what that 2:23:33.879 --> 2:23:36.640 is is a recipe for stability. That's less than half 2:23:37.200 --> 2:23:40.800 compared to seventies six percent of Democrats who think they 2:23:40.800 --> 2:23:45.240 will be fair and accurate. Um. Yeah. But also it's 2:23:45.280 --> 2:23:48.080 not going to be a problem. Also, Republicans are more 2:23:48.240 --> 2:23:50.879 sure that everyone who wants to vote will be able 2:23:50.920 --> 2:23:54.400 to They just don't think the votes will be counted verse, 2:23:54.440 --> 2:23:56.520 but they think everyone who has access to voting is 2:23:56.560 --> 2:23:59.320 can do it easily, when as Democrats say that voting 2:23:59.360 --> 2:24:03.200 access is more of an issue that actually could impact elections. Um, 2:24:03.200 --> 2:24:05.240 which is you know, if you actually look at stuff 2:24:05.320 --> 2:24:09.280 is actually true? Um? Yes, yeah, it's we have we 2:24:09.320 --> 2:24:11.800 have one of the like, the fact that our elections 2:24:11.800 --> 2:24:14.840 are ran by volunteers is like one of the most 2:24:14.879 --> 2:24:19.120 absolutely badshit things on earth. It's it's low key and 2:24:19.160 --> 2:24:21.800 existential threat to everybody listening to this yeeah, And I 2:24:21.800 --> 2:24:22.920 mean it's and you know, and this is one of 2:24:22.959 --> 2:24:25.320 the things I would say about sort of electoralisms, like 2:24:25.360 --> 2:24:28.840 every every single you probably won't hear about it that 2:24:28.959 --> 2:24:32.000 much this year because it's not a presidential election, but 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:36.119 every single time there's there's a there's a natural presidential election, 2:24:36.240 --> 2:24:38.200 there's a bunch of stories about how a bunch of 2:24:38.200 --> 2:24:40.840 people waited in lines for fucking seven hours because there 2:24:40.879 --> 2:24:43.240 weren't enough stations, they didn't set them up in the 2:24:43.320 --> 2:24:46.879 right places, and nothing ever will literally will ever be 2:24:46.920 --> 2:24:49.720 done about this. This has been like I remember, I 2:24:49.720 --> 2:24:52.760 remember stories about this when I was like ten, and 2:24:52.760 --> 2:24:54.920 it is. It will never change, nothing will ever be 2:24:54.959 --> 2:24:57.400 done about It's every single time that happens, people say 2:24:57.400 --> 2:24:58.840 that they're going to do stuff about it, and they don't. 2:24:59.720 --> 2:25:05.720 And yet so that's that's fun. The elections are kind 2:25:05.720 --> 2:25:10.040 of pre rigged already. Further fun kind of staddy things 2:25:10.120 --> 2:25:12.480 to help with to help with trying to you know, 2:25:12.600 --> 2:25:15.440 get the temperature of the room. So about half of 2:25:15.440 --> 2:25:18.800 white voters say that they would vote for a Republican 2:25:18.840 --> 2:25:23.680 candidate say that they will vote Democrat. Uh, I know, 2:25:24.080 --> 2:25:27.879 I talked I mentioned this briefly of women aged fifteen 2:25:27.959 --> 2:25:30.640 up say that the economy is not working well. Um, 2:25:30.959 --> 2:25:34.120 and that's going to strongly impact their their electoral choices. 2:25:34.200 --> 2:25:36.320 And this is what a lot of people are kind 2:25:36.320 --> 2:25:38.640 of looking towards in terms of indications of how they're 2:25:38.640 --> 2:25:42.160 going to vote and how results could be in the end. 2:25:42.440 --> 2:25:45.440 Is like you know, older, older women who are Gen 2:25:45.640 --> 2:25:49.000 X and UM and UM and boomer women are seemed 2:25:49.040 --> 2:25:50.800 to be kind of the people to go after at 2:25:50.800 --> 2:25:55.120 the moment um. So, yeah, say that they don't like 2:25:55.160 --> 2:25:57.240 the economy and it's not working well. That's up from 2:25:57.280 --> 2:26:02.000 seventy sorry, that's up from in twenty nine in teen um, 2:26:02.040 --> 2:26:04.280 and it's most of it's around like day most of 2:26:04.280 --> 2:26:09.360 it's around like day to day budgets. Uh. So that's 2:26:09.360 --> 2:26:11.600 that's that's good. That's uh. That's an interesting thing in 2:26:11.680 --> 2:26:15.039 terms of how how propaganda can be shifted around that 2:26:15.080 --> 2:26:16.480 we know we've even seen that around like the war 2:26:16.520 --> 2:26:19.000 in Ukraine with like with like gas prices and stuff. 2:26:21.080 --> 2:26:23.520 We have in terms of back to how kind of 2:26:24.760 --> 2:26:28.240 looking at looking at people of what race is generally 2:26:28.240 --> 2:26:31.760 turning towards what what thing? Yeah, so over half say 2:26:31.800 --> 2:26:34.720 they do Republicans. About a third say they vote for 2:26:34.800 --> 2:26:38.080 Democrats if if if they are white. On contrast, we 2:26:38.200 --> 2:26:41.440 got like a larger majority of black voters saying that 2:26:41.480 --> 2:26:45.720 they prefer the Democratic candidates seven percent for Republican. Asian 2:26:45.800 --> 2:26:49.680 voters prefer Democrat over Republican uh from about like a 2:26:49.680 --> 2:26:54.080 two to one ratio, which is a seven. And Hispanic 2:26:54.160 --> 2:26:59.720 voters also favored Democrats at about Republicans have about twenty 2:26:59.760 --> 2:27:03.640 eight percent UM. And the other interesting and other interesting 2:27:03.640 --> 2:27:07.840 stat pulled from a Pure research center is that seventy 2:27:08.160 --> 2:27:11.160 percent of Republicans agree that party control of of of 2:27:11.240 --> 2:27:14.160 the House and Senate is an important factor, but only 2:27:14.160 --> 2:27:19.279 six of Democrats believe that, So that means of Democrats 2:27:19.320 --> 2:27:22.840 don't think that the House and Senate's important um which 2:27:22.920 --> 2:27:26.360 is a little wacky, which is also a down from 2:27:26.360 --> 2:27:30.440 seven points because uh in in the same in this 2:27:30.600 --> 2:27:33.560 under the same question, sixty seven percent of of of 2:27:33.600 --> 2:27:38.199 Democrats said that they valued House, House and Senate control. 2:27:38.400 --> 2:27:40.720 So that is so that that is down by almost 2:27:40.720 --> 2:27:44.600 ten percent. Meanwhile, the Republican percentage points of that question 2:27:44.640 --> 2:27:47.280 have has turned it upwards, which makes sense because of 2:27:47.320 --> 2:27:52.400 you know, whoever's affecting, who's ever in the executive branch. Well, 2:27:52.520 --> 2:27:55.160 we'll say, oh yeah, it's less important for the House 2:27:55.160 --> 2:27:58.920 and Senate, right, so Trump say it's it's less important 2:27:59.040 --> 2:28:00.960 now to them, it's more import rent, you know. And 2:28:01.000 --> 2:28:02.720 I also think with the Democrats, there's an angle of 2:28:02.800 --> 2:28:05.600 this which is like, okay, so we gave them power 2:28:05.680 --> 2:28:09.920 for two years and they did kind of nothing. Yeah, 2:28:10.040 --> 2:28:13.720 like it feels like nothing like they Actually that's that's 2:28:13.720 --> 2:28:16.800 not true. They gave they gave police more money. They 2:28:16.840 --> 2:28:20.960 gave they gave the Pentagon lots of lots of more money, 2:28:21.000 --> 2:28:24.240 the most about of money ever, largest budget ever, largest 2:28:24.240 --> 2:28:28.760 ice budget. With global warming, we're gonna need more ice, y'all, Like, 2:28:28.879 --> 2:28:33.080 come on, come on, uh huh. I'm sure that was it. 2:28:33.200 --> 2:28:35.720 That was the joke. That's the joke. Temperature joke. Yes, 2:28:35.760 --> 2:28:39.560 I understand. It's also a climate refugee joke though. Oh 2:28:39.879 --> 2:28:43.320 double double meanings, so we call it double on tombre. 2:28:44.560 --> 2:28:49.640 That's how you pronounced the French garrison. But yeah, it's 2:28:49.680 --> 2:28:54.240 only se of a female voters age have decided who 2:28:54.240 --> 2:28:58.240 they're going to vote for in November. Um, so that 2:28:58.440 --> 2:29:03.000 is wacky that with so many good choices, how could 2:29:03.000 --> 2:29:08.160 they not know? So yeah, they're really they're really really 2:29:08.160 --> 2:29:10.880 trying to pull from there. And where do women over 2:29:10.920 --> 2:29:15.199 fifty spend a lot of time on? Typically face? Facebook 2:29:15.240 --> 2:29:19.520 dot com? Um? So yeah, Facebook is Facebook and the 2:29:19.560 --> 2:29:21.440 GOP are really trying to do a lot of stuff 2:29:21.440 --> 2:29:23.760 to influence elections right now. As we detailed in our 2:29:23.800 --> 2:29:27.480 last episode around around Facebook and the GOP funding all 2:29:27.520 --> 2:29:29.760 of the anti TikTok stuff and funding all the pro 2:29:29.840 --> 2:29:32.520 Facebook stuff. They really want people to be on Facebook 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:35.320 because it turns out that's how they spread their propaganda 2:29:35.360 --> 2:29:39.400 the best. Um. And yeah, specifically with women age over fifty, 2:29:39.440 --> 2:29:48.320 that's like the prime demographic for Facebook. So neat Uh yeah, anyway, 2:29:48.360 --> 2:29:50.040 that is uh. That is a lot of the uh, 2:29:50.600 --> 2:29:53.160 a lot of the election notes that I had because 2:29:53.160 --> 2:29:55.480 again I am as I keep up with all of 2:29:55.480 --> 2:29:58.240 the electoralisms. Basically every day I wake up, every morning, 2:29:58.280 --> 2:30:02.400 I go to I go to that one polling website. Um, 2:30:02.760 --> 2:30:07.560 and I fine, you text the word vote every single morning, 2:30:10.200 --> 2:30:14.199 always always here's what's weird, always using a different phone, 2:30:16.800 --> 2:30:19.960 tell us, tell us the truth. But that it's not 2:30:20.000 --> 2:30:22.760 that they're a pholster. It's that one day Nate Silver 2:30:22.840 --> 2:30:25.880 woke up with a splitting headache and Garrison leapt fully 2:30:25.920 --> 2:30:28.280 formed out of a hole in the side of his skull. 2:30:31.160 --> 2:30:32.880 But yeah, I mean, in terms of all of the 2:30:32.920 --> 2:30:36.320 anti trans stuff that it's actually worth focusing on. Obviously, 2:30:36.320 --> 2:30:39.560 the ices really really depressing in terms of by the 2:30:39.600 --> 2:30:42.000 getting an office and giving Ice millions and millions of 2:30:42.040 --> 2:30:46.240 more dollars, You're like, great, um, but you know, it 2:30:46.280 --> 2:30:48.760 seems like if more Democrats are in office right now, 2:30:48.800 --> 2:30:51.120 it seems like that will make life slightly easier for 2:30:51.120 --> 2:30:54.400 trans people. So that is it's, you know, it's the 2:30:54.680 --> 2:30:57.640 thing you always have to accept with our democracy, which 2:30:57.720 --> 2:31:01.920 is that it's foolish to say that the elections don't matter, 2:31:02.000 --> 2:31:05.200 because they do, because, for example, price caps on insulin 2:31:05.440 --> 2:31:08.360 or not passing more laws to make life a nightmare 2:31:08.360 --> 2:31:12.279 for trans people really does matter. But certain horrible things 2:31:12.320 --> 2:31:17.240 like the continued dominance of extractive industries that are pushing 2:31:17.320 --> 2:31:21.520 us towards climate disaster or uh, the expansion of the 2:31:21.560 --> 2:31:25.280 car Serile state and militarized policing in many different forms, 2:31:25.280 --> 2:31:28.080 in the militarization of the border. That's gonna keep right 2:31:28.160 --> 2:31:30.800 on trucking no matter who's in charge, and the elections 2:31:30.879 --> 2:31:35.080 don't matter for that so far. Maybe someday they will, 2:31:35.160 --> 2:31:38.480 but I'd have to see it happen, you know, I do. 2:31:38.760 --> 2:31:41.680 It's I do. Got good news for you, though, is 2:31:41.720 --> 2:31:44.280 that the White House is launching a new TikTok campaign 2:31:44.280 --> 2:31:46.880 and it already has a hundred followers. After like, what, 2:31:46.879 --> 2:31:49.240 why don't you? Why don't you refresh that TikTok air so, 2:31:49.240 --> 2:31:51.200 and let's see how much they've gained since we started 2:31:51.200 --> 2:31:53.560 this episode. I want to see what they're up to, 2:31:55.040 --> 2:31:57.800 because I'm curious if I've gained more followers on Twitter 2:31:58.760 --> 2:32:04.400 on TikTok a period of time. I'm checking, I'm checking, 2:32:04.440 --> 2:32:07.600 I'm checking. All right, here we go, I'm going to 2:32:07.680 --> 2:32:11.800 do it. Um. The the account is called building Back Together, 2:32:13.480 --> 2:32:18.360 so already pretty catchy. Um. How do they keep making 2:32:18.360 --> 2:32:23.520 these phrases worse? I know they cannot. Oh, they are 2:32:23.560 --> 2:32:27.240 actually up since so the the last news article I 2:32:27.360 --> 2:32:30.760 looked at, they had ninety four followers now they're up 2:32:30.800 --> 2:32:33.760 to a thousand and eight hundred. Okay, so no, thanks 2:32:33.760 --> 2:32:39.000 for going better. I think I think we got this. 2:32:39.120 --> 2:32:44.680 I think we got it. This is a good side anyway. 2:32:44.920 --> 2:32:49.120 I mean, there's a good there's an article about the uh, 2:32:49.160 --> 2:32:51.640 the millennial whisper or something like, oh wait no, sorry, 2:32:51.640 --> 2:32:53.920 it's DIM's turned to gen Z whisperer to show her 2:32:54.000 --> 2:32:56.720 up support. An article from a day ago from Real 2:32:56.800 --> 2:33:02.520 Clear Politics. Um, that's that's that's that's fun. You know what. 2:33:02.600 --> 2:33:03.959 You know what Biden has to do. Biden has to 2:33:03.959 --> 2:33:06.520 get Mr Beast on the job and start making those 2:33:08.200 --> 2:33:10.040 and then I think, I think, I think, I think 2:33:10.040 --> 2:33:14.279 we'll have this one in the bag. Um yeah, I mean, Garrison, 2:33:14.480 --> 2:33:17.240 just based on my knowledge of you, the main thing 2:33:17.280 --> 2:33:20.480 that Joseph Biden could do to prop up gen Z 2:33:20.640 --> 2:33:24.920 support is to just start air dropping hormones uh to 2:33:25.200 --> 2:33:28.320 whoever wants them. I think air dropped hormones and air 2:33:28.400 --> 2:33:31.120 dropped money. It would be the way to go, because 2:33:31.440 --> 2:33:33.960 could you could appeal to the right by giving them 2:33:34.080 --> 2:33:36.480 h g H. There's a lot of options here, Like, 2:33:36.760 --> 2:33:39.680 it doesn't have to be just one. Everybody likes some 2:33:39.800 --> 2:33:42.560 kind of hormone. You know, hormones for all hormones for 2:33:42.680 --> 2:33:47.200 all steroids and estrogen for everybody. Well yeah, I mean 2:33:47.240 --> 2:33:48.920 like in terms of things that that Biden could do 2:33:48.920 --> 2:33:51.400 to actually gains to actually get stuff to do, get 2:33:51.440 --> 2:33:53.480 to like get enough support, is that he can start 2:33:53.520 --> 2:33:57.800 doing executive orders that actually do are that actually are helpful. Um, 2:33:57.920 --> 2:33:59.720 he could, we could, we could. They can really start 2:33:59.800 --> 2:34:05.240 rallying around the marijuana legalization bill. Um, Like they're like, hey, 2:34:05.280 --> 2:34:08.600 if you vote for Democrats in the Senate, we can 2:34:08.600 --> 2:34:10.959 pass this thing. But we need to have more Democrats 2:34:11.000 --> 2:34:13.400 in the side. Like they could do that, they could campaign, 2:34:13.640 --> 2:34:17.520 they could actually do things, but they're not that he could. 2:34:17.560 --> 2:34:20.160 He could. He could order the d e A to 2:34:20.320 --> 2:34:26.160 reschedule cannabis. That is a thing that the president can do. Um. 2:34:26.240 --> 2:34:28.680 He can do more stimulus checks, He can do a 2:34:28.680 --> 2:34:30.800 whole bunch of stuff. He could forgive a bunch of 2:34:30.800 --> 2:34:34.880 student loan that just honestly, making tangible progress on federal 2:34:34.920 --> 2:34:38.800 decriminalization of marijuana and forgiving a bunch of student debt 2:34:39.640 --> 2:34:42.200 uh in the time left before the midterms would be 2:34:42.280 --> 2:34:43.880 enough that it would be a lot harder for people 2:34:43.879 --> 2:34:47.200 to say Joe Biden didn't do anything. There is ways 2:34:47.280 --> 2:34:50.640 to counter the arguments. People are going to make the show, 2:34:50.920 --> 2:34:54.320 and by god, some of them are easy. Pot is 2:34:54.959 --> 2:34:58.520 a real, real free, free space. I most of my 2:34:58.640 --> 2:35:02.360 family are like super right wing and absolutely none of 2:35:02.400 --> 2:35:05.920 them support marijuana being illegal anymore. Most of them now 2:35:06.000 --> 2:35:11.160 smoke pot. Like It's like, you can make this happen, Joe. Unfortunately, 2:35:11.200 --> 2:35:13.199 the presidents of the United States is the man who 2:35:13.320 --> 2:35:19.040 wrote who wrote Planned Colombia, so oh just parts of it? 2:35:19.200 --> 2:35:22.600 Come on. He claimed responsibility for all of it. He did, 2:35:22.640 --> 2:35:25.960 he shure it really did. Know we're talking about it's 2:35:26.040 --> 2:35:29.720 super funny. Um, so not about all the deaths, because 2:35:29.720 --> 2:35:31.800 a lot of people died. But so that is our 2:35:31.959 --> 2:35:34.560 that's our little rundown on the terms as it stands 2:35:34.560 --> 2:35:38.119 at this moment. There still is primaries happening. Obviously that's 2:35:38.120 --> 2:35:40.640 gonna keep going. But yeah, if if if if, if, 2:35:41.080 --> 2:35:43.440 if the Democrats actually want to stay in office, which 2:35:44.120 --> 2:35:46.120 I'm not sure if they actually do, but but if 2:35:46.120 --> 2:35:49.760 they do, they could actually just start doing things, um, 2:35:49.840 --> 2:35:52.160 things that are not hard. That would that would that 2:35:52.200 --> 2:35:54.560 would that would actually you know, if you want young 2:35:54.600 --> 2:35:57.400 people to vote for you, maybe you could give them drugs, 2:35:57.560 --> 2:36:00.640 whether that be estrogen or weed and that right, I'm excited. 2:36:01.080 --> 2:36:05.640 Joe Biden's famous saying vote out with your scrots out 2:36:21.040 --> 2:36:28.640 do the thing, the thing, it's could happen here a podcast. Nope, 2:36:28.879 --> 2:36:31.760 it's it's it's start trying to happen, isn't it. They're 2:36:31.800 --> 2:36:34.560 really it's doing its best. You know, they're really going 2:36:34.600 --> 2:36:38.359 for us. What is you know that that thing by Yates, 2:36:38.640 --> 2:36:41.800 some great beasts slouching to be born, Time of Monsters, 2:36:41.840 --> 2:36:43.680 all that good stuff. That's what's going on here with 2:36:43.800 --> 2:36:48.320 it could happen here? It's the podcast. Garrison. Hi, how 2:36:48.360 --> 2:36:52.520 are we doing? So? We're talking about the still ongoing 2:36:52.680 --> 2:36:56.800 and probably well seemingly never ending. Hopefully it'll end eventually. 2:36:57.360 --> 2:37:06.880 Uh the hold up on that one here? The escalating 2:37:06.879 --> 2:37:11.920 more on trans people of yeah, and uh, we've we've 2:37:12.000 --> 2:37:15.280 brought on some some people who have been working to 2:37:15.400 --> 2:37:18.800 organize against the the kind of wave of bills and 2:37:18.879 --> 2:37:24.560 rhetoric and legislation targeting trans healthcare, targeting the just existence 2:37:24.560 --> 2:37:27.840 of trans people in general. We're talking to cat and 2:37:27.879 --> 2:37:33.680 Ada Roads from Tear it Up, a new newer organization, uh, 2:37:33.760 --> 2:37:39.840 dedicated to specifically specifically fighting against these these new bills. Hello, 2:37:40.720 --> 2:37:47.400 hey friends, Yes, thank you so much. Um, we've been, 2:37:48.000 --> 2:37:50.039 We've we've been. We've been talking for a bit because 2:37:50.080 --> 2:37:53.440 of how these bills have been also a thing for 2:37:53.520 --> 2:37:57.280 a bit. And uh we initially met up for trans 2:37:57.400 --> 2:38:00.879 day visibility. Uh I tagged a longing to go to 2:38:01.160 --> 2:38:06.440 a protest in Idaho. Um, and then we we got 2:38:06.480 --> 2:38:10.240 on on trans day visibility. We we we we cooked up, 2:38:10.440 --> 2:38:13.440 cooked up plans to sit down and have this chat. 2:38:13.520 --> 2:38:16.119 So it is. It is a little bit late, but hey, 2:38:16.280 --> 2:38:20.000 it's it doesn't Maybe we can have more than one day. 2:38:20.680 --> 2:38:23.879 Maybe that's a good idea. Well, we're not getting remembrance too, 2:38:24.160 --> 2:38:27.280 so yeah, well hopefully we can have more than two 2:38:27.360 --> 2:38:31.240 days and one of them not be just sad. Um. Yeah, 2:38:31.280 --> 2:38:34.760 probably too, because you know they're still attacking. Oh did 2:38:34.800 --> 2:38:38.280 they not? Did they not stop? No? No, our visibility 2:38:38.320 --> 2:38:40.080 did not, in fact scare them back into their cave. 2:38:40.560 --> 2:38:42.880 All right, this is why we need a trans day 2:38:42.879 --> 2:38:47.880 of one free murder. I love this plan. YEA currently 2:38:48.760 --> 2:38:55.160 a problems. Well that's a that's a great note to h. 2:38:56.000 --> 2:39:01.760 I mean, look, Caitlin Jinner already used hers. Jesus Christ, 2:39:03.040 --> 2:39:09.320 it's going to be my contribution for the Wow this 2:39:09.400 --> 2:39:13.680 is this is gonna really really convince all of the 2:39:13.840 --> 2:39:16.040 all of the on the edge libs who are somehow 2:39:16.040 --> 2:39:20.400 listening to this. They stumble upon it trying to find 2:39:20.440 --> 2:39:25.560 a recipe. They thought it was tear like a scale 2:39:25.760 --> 2:39:27.520 and they were like, I was trying to work my 2:39:27.600 --> 2:39:32.920 baking scale. What if I coul measure of lentils and 2:39:32.959 --> 2:39:36.959 then arm all your local trans women. I would like 2:39:37.000 --> 2:39:39.760 to make a very very trans cooking video in the 2:39:39.800 --> 2:39:44.360 style of David Lynch's keen my video of her. But 2:39:44.640 --> 2:39:46.520 that is that is a deep cut for all of 2:39:46.560 --> 2:39:49.680 the lynch heads out there, as Lynch fans called themselves. Anyway, 2:39:49.840 --> 2:39:52.160 we're talking about all of all of all the bills 2:39:52.280 --> 2:39:56.440 talking about um, all of the rhetoric that we've seen 2:39:56.480 --> 2:39:59.840 been specifically increasing the past, like the past week as 2:39:59.840 --> 2:40:02.640 of recording broad past, you know, maybe a week or 2:40:02.680 --> 2:40:06.520 two as of time of release. For they're like, they're 2:40:06.640 --> 2:40:09.680 they're really going for it for trying to get people 2:40:09.800 --> 2:40:13.920 to do like just violence against people who don't look 2:40:14.080 --> 2:40:16.400 like how they want them to look. And that's that's 2:40:16.400 --> 2:40:19.959 basically what they're trying to do. And we we're gonna 2:40:19.959 --> 2:40:22.119 We're not talking on and we're talking a variety of 2:40:22.200 --> 2:40:25.959 topics between we're gonna talk. We're gonna unfortunately discuss like 2:40:25.959 --> 2:40:27.680 the groomer thing. We'll talk about all the bills that 2:40:27.720 --> 2:40:30.240 haven't haven't passed in different ways that we can kind 2:40:30.240 --> 2:40:33.560 of stand up against this this this thing that's really 2:40:33.560 --> 2:40:36.320 trying to take take a hold. UM. I guess I 2:40:36.320 --> 2:40:39.640 would like to start by discussing the origin of of 2:40:39.840 --> 2:40:41.879 of Tear it Up and like, how you know what 2:40:41.879 --> 2:40:45.520 what happened to I mean, obviously we know what happened 2:40:45.520 --> 2:40:47.520 to cause this distuct to have to cause this thing 2:40:47.560 --> 2:40:49.320 to be prompted, but yeah, what was what was like 2:40:49.480 --> 2:40:52.240 the specific process of being like, okay, it's it's all 2:40:52.280 --> 2:40:55.440 these things are happening. Let's actually get a group of 2:40:55.440 --> 2:40:59.440 people together to organize this thing across the country. Yeah, 2:40:59.680 --> 2:41:04.320 I guess I can talk about that. So Tear it 2:41:04.400 --> 2:41:09.360 Up actually grew pretty directly out of a previous group 2:41:09.360 --> 2:41:12.560 called TROT and Texas, which is the trans Resistance of Texas, 2:41:13.200 --> 2:41:18.039 which started last year during their legislative session UM, and 2:41:18.040 --> 2:41:20.880 then really started to grow during the special sessions in 2:41:20.920 --> 2:41:26.160 response to this constant line of attack and realizing that 2:41:27.480 --> 2:41:31.600 the techniques and the strategy is being employed by a 2:41:31.600 --> 2:41:35.199 lot of the existing more liberal leaning groups were really 2:41:35.240 --> 2:41:39.280 focused on like back room conversations and deals and using 2:41:39.320 --> 2:41:42.640 like procedure to defeat things instead of actually like mobilizing 2:41:42.680 --> 2:41:50.360 people against anti trans state violence. UM and uh. From 2:41:50.400 --> 2:41:53.720 there we started to adopt things like louder, more obnoxious protests, 2:41:53.959 --> 2:42:00.280 a lot of stickering, firing posters. Um. And then this year, 2:42:02.080 --> 2:42:04.880 I so I originally started TROT, but I moved across 2:42:04.920 --> 2:42:06.959 the country and I was like, wow, ship, things are 2:42:07.000 --> 2:42:10.240 just getting worse everywhere. Um and I have a lot 2:42:10.280 --> 2:42:13.160 of friends all over the country from living in Portland 2:42:13.240 --> 2:42:16.560 and New York and Texas and Colorado and now the Midwest, 2:42:16.840 --> 2:42:19.920 and reached out to sort of pull together a bunch 2:42:19.920 --> 2:42:23.240 of humans that I knew would be willing to fight 2:42:23.280 --> 2:42:26.840 back and to try and experiment with methods that we 2:42:26.879 --> 2:42:30.920 can pick up from our predecessors, like act up and 2:42:32.200 --> 2:42:35.720 bring more attention and mobilize people more towards taking direct 2:42:35.760 --> 2:42:40.800 action instead of relying on these back room lobbing groups 2:42:40.840 --> 2:42:43.440 I don't think really give a funk about trans people, 2:42:43.520 --> 2:42:47.279 but love to use attacks on us to raise money. Yeah, yeah, 2:42:47.320 --> 2:42:50.360 I mean there's a number of number of examples we 2:42:50.400 --> 2:42:52.080 could point to do, but I think we could be 2:42:52.120 --> 2:42:58.320 more productive and just talk about you guys instead of yeah. 2:42:58.800 --> 2:43:04.400 So yeah, I really the transnational thing is really interesting 2:43:04.480 --> 2:43:07.400 point how it's like, I know, for for trans Day visibility, 2:43:07.440 --> 2:43:10.119 there was there was an organized kind of die ins 2:43:10.160 --> 2:43:13.039 and protests all across the country to happen at the 2:43:13.080 --> 2:43:16.560 same day. Obviously, Um, there was one in Idaho, which 2:43:17.480 --> 2:43:22.400 I was lucky enough to join in on. Um. And yeah, 2:43:22.480 --> 2:43:24.520 but there was there was, there was a lot of them, 2:43:24.640 --> 2:43:29.039 and I guess, yeah, it's on on the lead up 2:43:29.160 --> 2:43:34.160 to like as as all of these bills are escalating. Um. 2:43:34.280 --> 2:43:36.440 And then there was the whole there was the whole 2:43:36.520 --> 2:43:39.520 um wave of organizing against trans people for the so 2:43:39.600 --> 2:43:42.320 called like the Transition Day, which is really unfortunate because 2:43:42.680 --> 2:43:44.320 there actually it would be a great discussion to be 2:43:44.360 --> 2:43:47.320 had there on people who choose to not continue on 2:43:47.360 --> 2:43:50.960 with transition, but it's been so used by turfs and 2:43:51.000 --> 2:43:53.879 the gender critical movement that it's now just like it's 2:43:53.920 --> 2:43:58.360 just it's just another day for more transphobia. Just really unfortunate, Um, 2:43:58.440 --> 2:44:00.160 but we have that happening at the same time, was 2:44:00.240 --> 2:44:02.800 all of all of these bills and then we're like, okay, 2:44:02.879 --> 2:44:05.480 so what what what was what was kind of the 2:44:05.480 --> 2:44:08.280 stuff that prompted all of the guy ins And how 2:44:08.320 --> 2:44:10.320 are you like, um, talking with people in all the 2:44:10.440 --> 2:44:12.680 in all the different states to kind of organize this 2:44:12.720 --> 2:44:15.800 thing together but still also like separately for each location. 2:44:17.760 --> 2:44:19.360 One of the points that I'd like to come back to, 2:44:19.400 --> 2:44:21.400 like we're going to talk a little bit more about 2:44:21.400 --> 2:44:23.800 the details of the you know, some some of the 2:44:23.840 --> 2:44:27.360 specific legislation that has that has astolained a law and 2:44:27.400 --> 2:44:29.360 some of the other legislation that has not been able 2:44:29.400 --> 2:44:31.920 to pass into law. Um. And you know, we're we're 2:44:32.000 --> 2:44:34.440 drawing a contrast between ourselves and some of Tear it 2:44:34.480 --> 2:44:37.320 Up is drawing a contrast between itself and some of 2:44:37.360 --> 2:44:42.360 these more you know, institutionalist liberal organizations. UM. Not because 2:44:42.440 --> 2:44:47.280 that they not because they can't succeed in their stated goals. Sometimes, 2:44:47.360 --> 2:44:49.080 right like the A C. L you will sue on 2:44:49.160 --> 2:44:53.120 some of these things of those lawsuits. Maybe maybe something 2:44:53.160 --> 2:44:55.480 worth celebrating. What's happening in Texas right now is a 2:44:55.480 --> 2:44:58.160 great example of that. But that said, right, so, like 2:44:58.400 --> 2:45:01.480 we we can acknowledge that the that these more institutionalist 2:45:02.120 --> 2:45:04.960 tactics can can lead to you know, like it's a 2:45:04.959 --> 2:45:08.320 better outcome that these laws do not succeed obviously, Um, 2:45:08.360 --> 2:45:11.840 But there's the impacts of this legislation, and the discussion 2:45:11.920 --> 2:45:15.520 around this legislation is so much bigger and so much 2:45:15.560 --> 2:45:19.760 more profound than any of these individual laws. You know, 2:45:19.760 --> 2:45:22.879 is specifically looking at them, um in terms of their 2:45:22.920 --> 2:45:26.199 like material impact in people's lives, which are already abysmally 2:45:26.280 --> 2:45:30.480 fucking awful. But like the what the place that teared 2:45:30.560 --> 2:45:36.400 up is looking to kind of champion is but kind 2:45:36.400 --> 2:45:40.680 of hell raising that like enables us to empower each other, 2:45:41.040 --> 2:45:44.039 that enables us to be visible in a way that 2:45:44.240 --> 2:45:48.720 shows people on the ground all across the country that 2:45:48.920 --> 2:45:52.680 like that we are not just a a minority to 2:45:52.879 --> 2:45:57.120 be destroyed and ignored. That we're going to fight for ourselves. 2:45:57.200 --> 2:45:58.960 We're going to fight for each other. We're gonna fight 2:45:59.000 --> 2:46:01.080 for our kids, we're gonna fight for our families, and 2:46:01.120 --> 2:46:03.280 we're gonna fight for our rights, and we're gonna do 2:46:03.360 --> 2:46:06.280 it loud and as ugly as we need to in 2:46:06.360 --> 2:46:10.240 order to make sure that trans pain is visible. Yeah, 2:46:10.280 --> 2:46:17.119 And building on that, um that when we look at 2:46:17.120 --> 2:46:24.080 the start of last month March or I guess late February. Um, 2:46:24.120 --> 2:46:28.240 I think Texas was really kind of the flash point 2:46:28.280 --> 2:46:30.120 and a lot of the country on this where we 2:46:30.200 --> 2:46:32.880 had a lot of these bills sort of boiling. UM. 2:46:32.920 --> 2:46:38.039 I believe they are around seven D active at that point. Um. 2:46:38.040 --> 2:46:41.520 We're now down to like the high sixties, so that's better. 2:46:42.040 --> 2:46:45.959 But that was really where stuff started to boil over 2:46:46.080 --> 2:46:51.520 on this and we looked around and saw that the 2:46:51.600 --> 2:46:54.080 fight needed to focus on trans survival more than just 2:46:54.160 --> 2:46:59.119 the bills. And the bills are important to defeat because 2:46:59.520 --> 2:47:02.960 they're things trying to exterminate us. There's things that are 2:47:02.959 --> 2:47:06.600 trying to take families apart, to take away the things 2:47:06.640 --> 2:47:10.080 that are helping people stay alive, and to remove trans 2:47:10.160 --> 2:47:14.760 people from accessing public life, and that's going to really 2:47:14.920 --> 2:47:18.560 ruin a lot of humans. But we need to not 2:47:18.640 --> 2:47:20.879 just look at that individual fight and remember we're fighting 2:47:20.959 --> 2:47:25.400 for survival and we're fighting for each other and trans 2:47:25.440 --> 2:47:27.959 people as a community. We've always had to kind of 2:47:27.959 --> 2:47:30.920 rely on each other via various means, be at like 2:47:31.400 --> 2:47:35.560 Susan's place, or like go back to like Transvestia even 2:47:35.680 --> 2:47:39.600 and like these systems that weren't necessarily always and these 2:47:40.120 --> 2:47:45.920 forms of communication that weren't always focused on um necessarily 2:47:46.000 --> 2:47:49.040 legal winds in the more traditional sense and more just 2:47:49.080 --> 2:47:52.160 like forming community, even if those communities weren't necessarily great. 2:47:52.200 --> 2:47:56.039 In the case of like Transvestia and like some of 2:47:56.040 --> 2:48:00.959 those much more um respectable leaning groups, could you try 2:48:01.120 --> 2:48:03.600 a little talk a little bit about what Transvestia and 2:48:03.600 --> 2:48:05.560 Susan's place work, because I'm gonna guess a lot of 2:48:05.560 --> 2:48:07.959 people listening are not going to be super familiar with 2:48:08.000 --> 2:48:11.240 that history. I kind of am only casually heard anything 2:48:11.280 --> 2:48:14.400 about it. Yeah, so I'm a bit of a queer 2:48:14.440 --> 2:48:17.320 history nerd um, and you can learn a lot about this. Actually, 2:48:17.360 --> 2:48:22.320 I have a can I plug my podcast? What we 2:48:22.360 --> 2:48:24.360 would like to do is provide people with an ability 2:48:24.400 --> 2:48:26.720 to learn more about this kind of stuff. So yeah, 2:48:26.760 --> 2:48:30.680 please Yeah. So I'm part of the totally trans podcast network. 2:48:31.000 --> 2:48:33.640 Um you can pronounce some parrot twitter at like totally 2:48:33.640 --> 2:48:37.480 TransPod um. But we talked a lot about trans and 2:48:37.560 --> 2:48:39.880 queer history through the lens of like looking at it 2:48:39.959 --> 2:48:43.440 through pop culture and reading stuff into like The Little 2:48:43.440 --> 2:48:46.520 Mermaid and things. Um. So we go in a lot 2:48:46.600 --> 2:48:49.080 about Virginia Prince and transvestia in there, because I'm kind 2:48:49.080 --> 2:48:52.200 of obsessed with this human from the nineteen sixties who 2:48:52.280 --> 2:48:55.800 was like the first Twitter trans girl. Um, she was 2:48:55.959 --> 2:49:01.120 very problematic, super racist and classist, and her argument was 2:49:01.640 --> 2:49:06.680 she led to a lot of twentieth century confusion by saying, uh, 2:49:06.760 --> 2:49:10.080 that there's like heterosexual transvestites, which are what we would 2:49:10.120 --> 2:49:12.480 now just call like trans lesbians, and then like the 2:49:12.560 --> 2:49:15.680 homosexual transsexual, which is now what we would call straight 2:49:16.800 --> 2:49:21.760 trans folks, and that the homosexual transsexuals are bad and 2:49:21.800 --> 2:49:25.640 should be shunned, but the heterosexual transvestite should maintain all 2:49:25.680 --> 2:49:29.080 of her previous privileges. Uh. And she put out this 2:49:29.160 --> 2:49:33.160 magazine called Transvestia. She famously also got in trouble for 2:49:33.240 --> 2:49:36.000 sending nudes in the mail to another trans girl across 2:49:36.040 --> 2:49:41.920 the country. Um. Yeah, fascinating historical figure who kind of 2:49:43.080 --> 2:49:47.800 the curve historically in terms of sending nudes. That's that's 2:49:47.800 --> 2:49:53.280 groundbreaking with stuff. But Transvestia, though I did have this 2:49:53.360 --> 2:49:57.240 big cultural impact on sort of being an early trans zine. 2:49:57.320 --> 2:50:00.480 Shortly after it we start to see drag, which it 2:50:00.600 --> 2:50:03.720 was much more focused on like the homosexual trans sexual 2:50:04.040 --> 2:50:08.320 and more like sexually liberated takes through like the seventies 2:50:08.400 --> 2:50:11.280 and then later, UM, my favorite scene like gender Trash 2:50:11.320 --> 2:50:15.800 from how which uh was out of Toronto and like 2:50:15.840 --> 2:50:21.199 the nineties and was very confrontational about trans rights. So 2:50:21.400 --> 2:50:24.600 we sort of exist in this larger history where we're 2:50:24.640 --> 2:50:29.080 looking at how trans community has survived and formed and 2:50:29.160 --> 2:50:32.920 learning from things like star UM, which was the street 2:50:32.959 --> 2:50:37.080 Transvestitate Action Revolutionaries UM out of New York with Marcia P. 2:50:37.200 --> 2:50:40.800 Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, as well as UM act up 2:50:40.840 --> 2:50:44.360 and HIV activism, And we're trying to take what we 2:50:44.400 --> 2:50:46.959 can learn from our ancestors and apply it to our 2:50:46.959 --> 2:50:50.480 current survival and play you with it a little bit 2:50:50.520 --> 2:50:56.360 and update some of their tactics because I don't think 2:50:56.480 --> 2:50:59.760 traditional non violent protests the way it existed in the 2:50:59.760 --> 2:51:04.440 past gets attention anymore. UM, I think when you figure 2:51:04.440 --> 2:51:06.360 out ways to be louder about it. And I'm a 2:51:07.000 --> 2:51:10.160 I'm personally a devout pacivest other people aren't, and that's 2:51:10.280 --> 2:51:14.360 a okay. UM, I'm a good Quaker girl. But um, 2:51:15.520 --> 2:51:17.880 we need to be seen. We need our lives to 2:51:17.920 --> 2:51:20.039 be seen, and we need our value as humans to 2:51:20.040 --> 2:51:24.520 be seen so that we can love ourselves and each 2:51:24.560 --> 2:51:27.000 other enough to survive this horrible ship that's going to 2:51:27.200 --> 2:51:30.680 continue happening to us over the next couple of years. Yeah, 2:51:31.200 --> 2:51:35.000 I'm wanna be back on that with with one thought that, um, 2:51:35.040 --> 2:51:37.400 we're talking about this sort of like that, this history 2:51:37.480 --> 2:51:39.640 of trans people drawing together to take care of each other, 2:51:40.560 --> 2:51:44.360 and you know, I'm just thinking about how today, Uh, 2:51:44.560 --> 2:51:48.440 Marjorie Taylor Green releases a video that, amongst a bunch 2:51:48.440 --> 2:51:53.160 of other just like terrifying, awful, and occasionally super funny 2:51:53.200 --> 2:51:58.360 and it's incredible stupidity. Um, things that she's claiming in 2:51:58.400 --> 2:52:01.160 this video or that, like trans p bowl are basically 2:52:01.320 --> 2:52:05.120 like the you know, the barbarian hordes that have come 2:52:05.160 --> 2:52:08.120 to destroy Western civilization. And she's you know, she says 2:52:08.160 --> 2:52:11.199 with a straight face, like, you know, the late Rome 2:52:11.360 --> 2:52:16.480 and modern America are very similar. Of us rely heavily 2:52:16.600 --> 2:52:20.120 on Verrangian mercenaries in order to maintain the sanctity of 2:52:20.160 --> 2:52:22.840 our borders. I always wanted to be a wizard, but 2:52:22.879 --> 2:52:25.480 I guess I'm a barbarian. But I bring that up 2:52:25.520 --> 2:52:29.800 because there is this impression of transpower that like trans people, 2:52:30.680 --> 2:52:33.360 that is a result of our increased visibility, you know, 2:52:33.400 --> 2:52:37.000 like what the media called the transgender tipping point because 2:52:37.000 --> 2:52:39.080 suddenly people were like, oh, I guess liver and Cox 2:52:39.120 --> 2:52:43.720 gets to exist. But like, uh, with this increased visibility, 2:52:43.800 --> 2:52:46.959 is this impression that we have this like incredible magical 2:52:47.120 --> 2:52:51.720 cosmic powers to seduce your people and ruin your civilization 2:52:51.879 --> 2:52:54.480 or whatever. And like actually, like when I so I 2:52:55.000 --> 2:53:00.160 canut four three five, and like I never imagined old 2:53:00.160 --> 2:53:02.440 where we could even get healthcare covered when I was 2:53:02.480 --> 2:53:05.640 like I was like a kid organizing with Camp trans 2:53:05.680 --> 2:53:08.320 out in the woods of Michigan, and like I knew 2:53:08.360 --> 2:53:13.120 people who got orchie actomys in Barns. I every single 2:53:13.160 --> 2:53:16.560 trans woman. I knew everything that they knew about how 2:53:16.640 --> 2:53:21.840 to like get hormones and like manage their own transition 2:53:21.920 --> 2:53:25.840 and like endercan system. Uh they learned from message boards. 2:53:26.160 --> 2:53:29.879 It was the only collective knowledge in existence that was 2:53:29.879 --> 2:53:32.920 like accessible to people. Because if you went to your doctor, 2:53:33.240 --> 2:53:35.520 unless you lived in San Francisco or New York and 2:53:35.560 --> 2:53:38.440 we're particularly well connected, the response you were going to 2:53:38.480 --> 2:53:43.680 get is, I don't know, are you a demon? Right? Yeah? No, absolutely. 2:53:43.720 --> 2:53:45.840 That That's the one thing I found it, um really 2:53:45.920 --> 2:53:48.560 insightful talking to the older trans people that I know, 2:53:48.720 --> 2:53:52.320 because I'm like you know, a gym gen Z gender 2:53:52.360 --> 2:53:55.560 queer person on hormones. And it's very different because when 2:53:55.560 --> 2:53:58.920 when when I've been talking to the my my transgender 2:53:59.160 --> 2:54:01.320 friends who are older, it's like, yeah, all of these 2:54:01.320 --> 2:54:06.160 bills are just are a reaction to the increased visibility 2:54:06.160 --> 2:54:09.160 and increased well being of transpeople. Right. It's putting, it's 2:54:09.200 --> 2:54:11.560 putting things that used to be kind of just like 2:54:12.040 --> 2:54:15.320 unspoken or like obvious bigotry, it's putting now that that's 2:54:15.320 --> 2:54:18.440 actually progressing. It's now putting that that old bigotry into 2:54:18.520 --> 2:54:20.840 actual law because they're like, oh no, we don't want 2:54:20.840 --> 2:54:23.200 things to progress further. So it's a it's a purposeful 2:54:23.320 --> 2:54:26.240 sliding back. Um. So it's just like for a lot 2:54:26.240 --> 2:54:28.240 of people who are older, it doesn't even seem that new. 2:54:28.480 --> 2:54:30.959 It's just seemed to be. It's it's resurfacing. The things 2:54:31.000 --> 2:54:33.880 that were used to be normalized are now becoming you know, 2:54:34.120 --> 2:54:37.279 are becoming more obviously bigoted. But they're putting that bigotry 2:54:37.320 --> 2:54:40.760 into actual law. Um. And that's the Yeah, that's the 2:54:40.840 --> 2:54:43.720 kind of interesting point is because for there's a whole 2:54:43.720 --> 2:54:48.039 bunch of people who believe that like the transgenderisms and 2:54:48.160 --> 2:54:51.600 the gender ideology is like a point of power. It's 2:54:51.600 --> 2:54:55.720 like because it's affiliated with the left um and the 2:54:55.840 --> 2:54:59.400 left is seen as like the power it's it's then 2:54:59.440 --> 2:55:02.160 like therefore you're actually punching up on it, which is 2:55:02.200 --> 2:55:04.680 of course entirely backwards. Like that, none of that. If 2:55:04.680 --> 2:55:06.960 you have any political analysis, you'll you'll know like, oh, 2:55:07.040 --> 2:55:09.560 that's not how anything works. But yeah, these people in 2:55:09.800 --> 2:55:12.640 their minds, they think they're actually pushing up against like 2:55:12.840 --> 2:55:16.800 the like the powerful forces of transgenderism. You're like, no, 2:55:17.000 --> 2:55:19.560 we're just like pugs who are poor, who are trying 2:55:19.600 --> 2:55:21.760 to who are trying to get our homeown injections like 2:55:21.920 --> 2:55:24.720 leave us aloud. I can't remember. It was like Tom 2:55:24.800 --> 2:55:29.720 Cotton or Matt Gates. Yeah, one of those guys, one 2:55:29.720 --> 2:55:34.320 of the Pentagone guys, right, being like yelling at him 2:55:34.400 --> 2:55:37.640 because you know, our military is being destroyed because somebody 2:55:37.720 --> 2:55:41.040 put the class about like respecting someone's pronouns and the 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:44.000 guy's responses like we can obliterate any target on the 2:55:44.160 --> 2:55:47.320 entire planet with no effort, Like what the are you 2:55:47.400 --> 2:55:52.440 talking about? There's there's that great there's that horrible, great 2:55:52.440 --> 2:55:56.359 tweet about the person that runs that four Chune trans account, 2:55:56.360 --> 2:55:59.879 who's who is who is like this? This trends person 2:56:00.120 --> 2:56:03.480 was like a war criminal because they sell weapons. It was, 2:56:03.560 --> 2:56:07.400 it was, it was so wonderful sweet for a few 2:56:07.480 --> 2:56:10.640 days ago, I mean one of I mean famously, a 2:56:10.640 --> 2:56:13.440 lot of companies in the arms industry, like Raytheon, have 2:56:13.520 --> 2:56:16.400 a great reputation for hiring trans people because all Raytheon 2:56:16.520 --> 2:56:19.000 cares about is you can go to missile guidance chip. 2:56:19.200 --> 2:56:24.160 That's all that matters to Raytheon. They're they're they're very woke. Yeah, 2:56:24.200 --> 2:56:26.480 but it is, it is. It is intriguing to watch 2:56:26.640 --> 2:56:30.440 these people really justify their transphobia as a form of 2:56:30.480 --> 2:56:34.240 fighting against the system because they have somehow affiliated of 2:56:34.920 --> 2:56:37.879 being trans with the Democratic Party. Therefore it's affiliated with 2:56:37.879 --> 2:56:41.400 the establishment. Therefore it's actually this force of power, which 2:56:41.680 --> 2:56:44.840 none none of that's, none of that's true, but that 2:56:44.879 --> 2:56:47.520 propaganda is shown to be very effective. Um, the people 2:56:47.520 --> 2:56:49.480 seem really convinced by that because it's it's it's a 2:56:49.480 --> 2:56:51.800 story that's easy to glom onto. And as long as 2:56:51.840 --> 2:56:53.640 we have a story that we can glom onto, then 2:56:53.640 --> 2:56:55.720 it doesn't matter what's true or not. It's it's all 2:56:55.760 --> 2:56:59.360 of the stories are what's actually true. Um, So, yeah, 2:56:59.360 --> 2:57:02.360 that is an an intriguing an intriguing point in terms 2:57:02.360 --> 2:57:06.640 of how yeah, how how it's how stuff has changed 2:57:06.640 --> 2:57:09.360 from like transphobia ten years ago for the transphobia now 2:57:09.879 --> 2:57:13.039 how that was resurfacing some things that used to be 2:57:13.920 --> 2:57:18.959 used to just take shape in a slightly different form. Yeah. Well, 2:57:20.480 --> 2:57:23.000 and so Cat's experiences in two thousand and four, if 2:57:23.000 --> 2:57:27.199 you pass forward a decade, because I'm a little younger 2:57:27.360 --> 2:57:32.480 than Cat, but not a lot younger than Cat. Um 2:57:32.879 --> 2:57:36.680 around like I was trying to get on hormones. We 2:57:36.680 --> 2:57:39.959 also had like r l E. Big kiddos these days 2:57:40.040 --> 2:57:45.960 know what that was the real so it's real life experience, yeah, um, 2:57:46.040 --> 2:57:50.120 which is basically having to socially transition and come out 2:57:50.280 --> 2:57:52.720 and do all of this under the care of a 2:57:52.720 --> 2:57:56.120 therapist and a physician for between six months and a 2:57:56.120 --> 2:58:00.160 couple of years before they'll allow you to access hormones. Um. 2:58:01.400 --> 2:58:05.840 And uh. That was kind of like the stepping stone 2:58:05.920 --> 2:58:09.840 between the previous experiments where it was just like d 2:58:09.959 --> 2:58:14.640 I Y or nothing um what it was or impossible gatekeeping, 2:58:14.760 --> 2:58:17.760 and then now where there's like more informed concent model 2:58:17.800 --> 2:58:20.640 which is what I which is what I do now yeah, yeah, um, 2:58:21.360 --> 2:58:24.680 and a lot of these laws are just kind of 2:58:25.560 --> 2:58:30.520 reiterating that weight that comes from a really like flawed place, 2:58:30.720 --> 2:58:34.280 like that weight didn't in any way benefit anyone. Is 2:58:34.320 --> 2:58:37.400 really it's just torturing people and trying to kind of like, 2:58:38.160 --> 2:58:43.480 um like beat the traine out of you. Uh, make 2:58:43.520 --> 2:58:46.400 you go to the mall presenting as a woman while 2:58:46.400 --> 2:58:48.480 you feel incredibly awkward and get yelled at by some 2:58:48.560 --> 2:58:52.800 guy for like trying to buy shoes and he's like right, yeah, 2:58:53.280 --> 2:58:55.680 Like if if you're a nine year old who is 2:58:55.800 --> 2:59:00.080 experiencing precocious puberty, it is completely acceptable and no and 2:59:00.200 --> 2:59:03.320 is going to question whether or not um, you know, 2:59:03.680 --> 2:59:08.320 prescribing puberty blockers to just make make make like to 2:59:08.440 --> 2:59:10.320 make it so that you can experience puberty at it 2:59:10.400 --> 2:59:16.800 what feels like a more appropriate developmental age. Uh. Sis People, politicians, 2:59:16.800 --> 2:59:19.440 the right wing generally people agree that that is an 2:59:19.440 --> 2:59:23.680 acceptable practice. But to use that same practice in order 2:59:23.720 --> 2:59:27.200 to help a trans child not die, that is a 2:59:27.240 --> 2:59:30.880 sin against God and leading to the decline of Western civilization. 2:59:31.560 --> 2:59:37.320 We wish whatever whatever people are like, yeah, like trans 2:59:37.360 --> 2:59:40.120 people are are leading into this degeneracy that's going to 2:59:40.200 --> 2:59:43.480 bring down Western civilization. You're like, oh, wow, that's sure. 2:59:43.480 --> 2:59:48.360 It does sound cool For me, hormones worked so quickly, 2:59:48.760 --> 2:59:51.720 and I would having to live through like a year 2:59:52.400 --> 2:59:56.120 of trying to present in specific ways well not on 2:59:56.160 --> 2:59:59.680 hormones sounds like complete hell because it is. I was 2:59:59.800 --> 3:00:03.879 very surprise at how fast even like mindset things changed. Um, 3:00:04.080 --> 3:00:06.640 how it is like they're very like hormones are very 3:00:06.680 --> 3:00:09.040 useful and very interesting and how they and how they 3:00:09.080 --> 3:00:12.760 affect changes and being forced to I guess as the 3:00:12.879 --> 3:00:15.800 term now is like boy moting or girl moting, this 3:00:15.920 --> 3:00:17.560 is this is this is this is what the zoomer 3:00:17.920 --> 3:00:20.320 the Zoomer kids call whenever they have to like like 3:00:20.800 --> 3:00:24.600 almost like code switch gender. Um. Having having to like 3:00:25.560 --> 3:00:28.080 present in the way that you want to without these 3:00:28.120 --> 3:00:30.440 systems of hormones for a while. To even be allowed 3:00:30.480 --> 3:00:33.440 to have hormones as me a zoomer now sounds like 3:00:33.520 --> 3:00:38.120 horrible because it's literally dangerous, Like yeah, an incredibly dangerous 3:00:38.160 --> 3:00:40.920 thing to put people, like experience, to put people into. 3:00:41.080 --> 3:00:45.000 And I think that like that kind of gate keeping. Uh, 3:00:45.360 --> 3:00:47.520 you'll start looking at it through a more intersectional lens 3:00:47.640 --> 3:00:49.800 and like who is it hurting the most? It's hurting 3:00:49.879 --> 3:00:51.920 people who don't have a ship ton of money to 3:00:52.320 --> 3:00:56.800 like read get an entirely new wardrobe that people who, um, 3:00:56.879 --> 3:00:58.600 you know, people of color who are more likely to 3:00:58.600 --> 3:01:01.840 be targets of violence if they're more obviously visible and 3:01:01.879 --> 3:01:06.800 read as transp well, and it really artificially diminished the 3:01:06.920 --> 3:01:11.520 number of trans people and just gender variants in general. Um. 3:01:11.680 --> 3:01:15.199 Something that's been really interesting to watch us someone who 3:01:15.280 --> 3:01:19.320 kind of went into the pandemic as like a trans 3:01:19.360 --> 3:01:22.800 elder doing a lot of community work. Is the core 3:01:22.920 --> 3:01:27.000 in trans as a thing and how much we give 3:01:27.040 --> 3:01:31.160 everyone an opportunity to like explore themselves and be introspective 3:01:31.200 --> 3:01:33.400 for a year, and how many people are like, fuck, 3:01:33.440 --> 3:01:37.160 I'm a girl, um, or like I'm no gender, or 3:01:37.200 --> 3:01:40.960 I'm every gender and all of these incredibly beautiful forms 3:01:40.959 --> 3:01:45.040 of exploration that couldn't have happened if they had to 3:01:45.080 --> 3:01:48.000 go through that in like their normal source situations, if 3:01:48.000 --> 3:01:51.119 you just gave them an excuse to like do their 3:01:51.120 --> 3:01:54.640 own thing for six months. And um yeah, r l 3:01:54.640 --> 3:01:57.200 E was a good way to keep people from being 3:01:57.240 --> 3:02:00.480 able to explore. And it's just one way that trans 3:02:00.560 --> 3:02:02.840 people's bodily autonomy is attacked. And that's what a lot 3:02:02.879 --> 3:02:05.320 of these bills come down to as well. Is it's 3:02:05.320 --> 3:02:08.680 the same thing as like anti abortion or anti birth 3:02:08.680 --> 3:02:12.279 control staff. It's all just about reducing people's bodily autonomy. 3:02:12.320 --> 3:02:14.240 I mean yeah, because like if I had to quote 3:02:14.280 --> 3:02:16.280 unquote live as a girl for a year, I would 3:02:16.280 --> 3:02:18.480 have just never gotten hormones because I don't want to 3:02:18.560 --> 3:02:20.560 live as a girl. Like that's not that's not what 3:02:20.680 --> 3:02:23.080 that's not what I want to even do. And yeah, 3:02:23.240 --> 3:02:26.000 having having all of that gate keeping, which is part 3:02:26.080 --> 3:02:27.400 part of part of part of what they're trying to do, 3:02:27.440 --> 3:02:29.560 because I mean as much as as much as they 3:02:29.600 --> 3:02:33.320 hate people who like are you know, are find more 3:02:33.360 --> 3:02:37.199 comfort inside the inside the more like typical gender rules, 3:02:37.400 --> 3:02:40.440 they also really don't like the people who enjoy being 3:02:40.440 --> 3:02:44.359 more like over gender freaks, um and like like outside 3:02:44.360 --> 3:02:45.600 of that, it's like so of course they're going to 3:02:45.640 --> 3:02:48.320 try to climp down on any anything it's worth noting 3:02:48.360 --> 3:02:50.880 to just the like, there's there are a few different 3:02:50.959 --> 3:02:53.960 camps um in in in the sort of right wing 3:02:54.040 --> 3:02:57.720 response to trans people. Um. One of the things that 3:02:57.760 --> 3:03:00.920 I've learned over the years kind of looking at looking 3:03:00.920 --> 3:03:03.480 at what the alt right is up to. Um, uh, 3:03:03.680 --> 3:03:06.560 you know what. Originally I really like thought of the 3:03:06.600 --> 3:03:08.680 whole Republican Party, the whole right wing is like a 3:03:08.720 --> 3:03:12.680 single cohesive ideological unit. It seemed like they were disabled 3:03:12.680 --> 3:03:14.440 to get everyone on the same page and then go 3:03:14.520 --> 3:03:17.520 at something. And if you look closely, you realize actually 3:03:17.560 --> 3:03:20.520 it's this huge, ever evolving coalition of people who mostly 3:03:20.520 --> 3:03:23.240 hate each other and if you're if you're clever, you 3:03:23.280 --> 3:03:28.160 can break people off and disrupt things. Um, there's different 3:03:28.160 --> 3:03:30.560 there's different movements, different thoughts inside of the way that 3:03:30.600 --> 3:03:32.760 people are approaching this. And you have a lot of 3:03:32.800 --> 3:03:36.080 politicians who they probably never met a trans person, They 3:03:36.360 --> 3:03:39.480 certainly probably don't have any gay friends. They're just some 3:03:39.720 --> 3:03:44.400 random suburbanite motherfucker's who know that sacrificing trans kids on 3:03:44.440 --> 3:03:47.760 the altar of political convenience will score them points with 3:03:47.879 --> 3:03:53.320 a radicalized base of bigots. Um, so those people are 3:03:53.320 --> 3:03:56.920 just cynically hurting trans people because it will score them 3:03:56.959 --> 3:03:59.920 some you know, pretend points that will lead to real 3:04:00.000 --> 3:04:03.720 structural power. But there is also the evangelical community, and 3:04:03.720 --> 3:04:07.400 a huge amount of the the deepest and scariest fervor 3:04:07.440 --> 3:04:11.160 against trans people comes out of the evangelical community. I 3:04:11.200 --> 3:04:16.039 was raised vaguely evangelical and yeah, and like when I 3:04:16.040 --> 3:04:18.320 came out, I was definitely told I was going to hell. 3:04:18.360 --> 3:04:20.400 Like if you look at the you look at the 3:04:20.560 --> 3:04:25.080 where this a lot of the incredibly incredibly like eliminationist 3:04:25.280 --> 3:04:27.960 rhetoric is coming from. And that's coming from the evangelical 3:04:27.959 --> 3:04:30.280 community who are like, it's not just that I think 3:04:30.320 --> 3:04:33.920 that from a policy perspective, this is like we need 3:04:33.959 --> 3:04:36.879 to like retool how we're doing trans healthcare something, because 3:04:36.879 --> 3:04:39.200 if people wanted to have conversations about how to make 3:04:39.840 --> 3:04:43.360 the best possible systems, like we want to have that conversation, 3:04:43.480 --> 3:04:46.959 we can we can agree to, we can disagree about policy. 3:04:47.000 --> 3:04:50.320 But their policy is literally trans people are an army 3:04:50.360 --> 3:04:53.680 of demons who have come to win souls for Satan, 3:04:53.840 --> 3:04:57.120 And I'm like, I'm just trying to refill my prescription 3:04:57.640 --> 3:05:00.520 and like we need the funk alone. And it also 3:05:00.560 --> 3:05:05.240 creates this really interesting looping effect of of politicians who 3:05:05.280 --> 3:05:07.600 get into anti trans and like like all of this 3:05:07.680 --> 3:05:10.600 kind of like anti gay stuff to specifically win elections. Right. 3:05:10.600 --> 3:05:13.680 We even saw this like Greg Abbett doing his um 3:05:13.720 --> 3:05:17.960 like letters about about investigating parents of trans kids specifically 3:05:18.000 --> 3:05:21.920 around his primary election like, so people definitely do are 3:05:21.959 --> 3:05:25.359 still very much getting into this specifically to win elections 3:05:25.400 --> 3:05:27.280 because they know it's a point that riles up the base. 3:05:27.560 --> 3:05:29.760 But then you also have people, because that's been going 3:05:29.800 --> 3:05:32.800 on for so long, you have people who are maybe 3:05:32.840 --> 3:05:37.040 not necessarily super evangelical, um, but who grew up around 3:05:37.120 --> 3:05:39.400 this kind of culture of politicians need to say these things, 3:05:39.600 --> 3:05:42.320 who are now getting again even if paulicians didn't really 3:05:42.320 --> 3:05:44.400 fully agree with it, they they needed to do it 3:05:44.440 --> 3:05:46.320 to get support. But you have people who grew up 3:05:46.320 --> 3:05:49.640 around that and went into politics around that who are 3:05:49.640 --> 3:05:52.360 now just do that sincerely because because it was what 3:05:52.400 --> 3:05:55.400 they were exposed to previously. Now we have people like 3:05:55.440 --> 3:05:56.959 that who are trying to run for office with the 3:05:56.959 --> 3:05:59.720 first time who are just that extreme. Um. I think 3:05:59.720 --> 3:06:01.640 that's even a bit of what the Marjorie Taylor Green 3:06:01.720 --> 3:06:05.800 thing is is, like someone who was exposed to extremist 3:06:05.800 --> 3:06:09.160 stuff online who is now running for office herself and 3:06:09.320 --> 3:06:11.920 is completely sincere about all the stuff she's doing, Like 3:06:11.959 --> 3:06:13.680 she she is a true believer in the way that 3:06:13.760 --> 3:06:16.240 some other people like Matt Gates may not even be 3:06:16.280 --> 3:06:18.080 a true believer. He might just be doing it because 3:06:18.080 --> 3:06:20.080 it's popular. But you also have the people who are 3:06:20.120 --> 3:06:22.600 just like fully fully believe it because it's it's it's 3:06:22.640 --> 3:06:26.080 influenced culture long enough that it's now a full loop 3:06:26.120 --> 3:06:31.320 of sincerity. Well, and then specifically, the perception of trans 3:06:31.400 --> 3:06:35.880 people within the religious rights specifically is actually shifted so 3:06:35.959 --> 3:06:39.360 much and last decade. I guess now I'm trying to 3:06:39.400 --> 3:06:43.560 think how old I am, Um, because I was a 3:06:43.600 --> 3:06:49.200 student at Baylor University. Oh okay, yeah, okay, cool, cool, Yeah, 3:06:49.240 --> 3:06:51.640 I have I have I have some family who used 3:06:51.640 --> 3:06:54.360 to work at Baylor. Oh. I have spent a lot 3:06:54.360 --> 3:06:57.480 of time in and around there, the top part of 3:06:57.480 --> 3:07:02.240 the world. Um uh yeah, sick um for all of 3:07:02.280 --> 3:07:06.360 the queer asked Baylor bears out there. But I became 3:07:06.400 --> 3:07:11.440 a student and I graduated, and being queer was against 3:07:11.440 --> 3:07:14.680 the rules the whole time I was there. Despite me, 3:07:15.240 --> 3:07:19.599 we came out and started a student group my freshman year. Um. 3:07:19.760 --> 3:07:22.959 But I had to face this really weird decision because 3:07:22.959 --> 3:07:24.520 in high school I had a lot of gender stuff 3:07:24.560 --> 3:07:27.200 going on, a lot of sexuality stuff going on, and 3:07:27.240 --> 3:07:29.480 I described myself as like a queer sexual because I'm like, 3:07:29.480 --> 3:07:32.520 I'm still figuring it out. Sometimes I'm a girl. Sometimes 3:07:32.560 --> 3:07:35.039 I'm a boy. I don't know. I'll sort this out 3:07:35.080 --> 3:07:37.200 in my twenties. And then I go to college where 3:07:37.200 --> 3:07:39.240 I thought I'd sorted out, and I was faced with 3:07:39.320 --> 3:07:41.160 this thing like you can either be out as queer 3:07:41.720 --> 3:07:43.400 and but you have to like present as like as 3:07:43.480 --> 3:07:47.920 sis gay man. Or you can transition, which will be 3:07:47.959 --> 3:07:50.879 totally acceptable within this culture, but you have to go 3:07:51.000 --> 3:07:53.640 deep stealth and um, you'll just show up next year 3:07:53.640 --> 3:07:55.400 as a girl and everyone will be fine with that 3:07:55.480 --> 3:07:57.400 and we'll all pretend it didn't happen and that you've 3:07:57.400 --> 3:08:00.720 always been a girl. Um. I and that was like 3:08:01.240 --> 3:08:06.520 the standard and a lot of the Baylor's very upper 3:08:06.640 --> 3:08:11.200 Crest religious right, like very privileged group of people. But 3:08:11.440 --> 3:08:13.560 was you just kind of go away and we can 3:08:13.600 --> 3:08:16.040 just for a few months and we just pretend this 3:08:16.080 --> 3:08:20.400 is how it always was. And now it's much more 3:08:23.240 --> 3:08:26.959 um inquisitional is the wrong word. But they it's like 3:08:27.040 --> 3:08:31.600 hunting trans people down, uh, in a much more aggressive 3:08:31.600 --> 3:08:34.000 way where they can't just kind of be like, well, 3:08:34.400 --> 3:08:38.000 God doesn't make trash, and instead they're like, oh, God 3:08:38.040 --> 3:08:43.000 connects you to Hell, just very directly, and it's getting worse, 3:08:43.280 --> 3:08:47.359 and um, that's why tear it up. Is really important 3:08:47.360 --> 3:08:51.320 that we like start now instead of like next fall, 3:08:52.760 --> 3:08:55.959 because it's gonna be horrible next fall and the spring 3:08:56.000 --> 3:09:00.560 after that could be it's gonna be real grim. I 3:09:00.680 --> 3:09:02.760 love to talk more about like a tear it up 3:09:02.760 --> 3:09:05.200 and how you approach organizing UM and what you're kind 3:09:05.240 --> 3:09:08.680 of hoping to both expand into and the various actions 3:09:08.720 --> 3:09:11.560 that you have done in the past few weeks. So 3:09:11.920 --> 3:09:17.119 the first tear it up action officially was the three 3:09:17.160 --> 3:09:20.840 thirteen rally in Austin, Texas. That was the Transcrids Cry 3:09:20.879 --> 3:09:23.680 for Help rally UM, where we had a bunch of 3:09:23.680 --> 3:09:27.920 people and the steps of the Governor's mansion, UM speaking 3:09:28.080 --> 3:09:31.879 and getting loud and UM. We had a few hundred 3:09:31.879 --> 3:09:35.360 people show up and not really mobilized. A lot of 3:09:35.360 --> 3:09:39.120 folks in Texas that I know got activated from that 3:09:39.200 --> 3:09:43.000 and are still going. But while I was running and 3:09:43.120 --> 3:09:45.720 organizing that with trot Um and actually flew down to 3:09:45.800 --> 3:09:51.160 Texas from Nebraska to do that, UM, the various humans 3:09:51.160 --> 3:09:52.600 I'd reached out to and I was just like, I 3:09:52.680 --> 3:09:55.400 don't have time to explain directions right now. We need 3:09:55.440 --> 3:09:57.400 to organize the Diane by the end of the month. 3:09:58.440 --> 3:10:00.280 Here's here's what I have. I just kind of through 3:10:00.280 --> 3:10:04.280 it at them, and um, they all ran with it. 3:10:05.000 --> 3:10:10.080 And I think that's, um the way that we need 3:10:10.120 --> 3:10:12.800 to approach this right now, because we need to build 3:10:12.840 --> 3:10:15.760 this big machine, because they've been building the machine against 3:10:15.840 --> 3:10:20.000 us for years, UM, and to build a machine that 3:10:20.040 --> 3:10:21.640 can rival that, we kind of need to be much 3:10:21.640 --> 3:10:25.040 more decentralized and much more agile about how we grow 3:10:25.240 --> 3:10:28.120 and how we do these actions. Um. Cat, you are 3:10:28.160 --> 3:10:30.000 one of the first humans I reached out to and 3:10:30.040 --> 3:10:31.760 I was like, yes, I would like to make a 3:10:31.800 --> 3:10:38.360 big trouble. What was that like from your side of things? Yeah, 3:10:38.480 --> 3:10:41.040 So I keep thinking about this from the perspective of 3:10:41.120 --> 3:10:44.199 kind of my own political motivation. So I've done various 3:10:44.280 --> 3:10:48.600 kinds of like lefty whatever organizing for for most of 3:10:48.600 --> 3:10:52.320 my adult life. And um, in the last like last 3:10:52.520 --> 3:10:55.960 I guess February and February or whatever. UM, I think, 3:10:56.000 --> 3:10:58.000 like probably a lot of people, especially a lot of 3:10:58.040 --> 3:11:00.600 trance people, I had like a couple of weak period 3:11:00.640 --> 3:11:04.480 of just like totally depressed, doom scrolling, and then the 3:11:04.520 --> 3:11:07.600 invastion of Ukraine was happening, and it's just like everything 3:11:07.680 --> 3:11:10.240 was bad all the time. Um, it's still feel still 3:11:10.240 --> 3:11:12.760 feels like everything is bad all the time. But um, 3:11:12.800 --> 3:11:15.400 I have stuff to do thanks to uh it a 3:11:15.440 --> 3:11:18.879 roads that were here. UM. So what it I so like? 3:11:18.920 --> 3:11:22.000 I said, I grew up. Um, I was a child 3:11:22.000 --> 3:11:23.960 of the nineties. I grew up in a world that 3:11:24.000 --> 3:11:26.480 I knew was utterly hostile to my existence. I knew 3:11:26.480 --> 3:11:29.600 that trans people were like that to be trans was 3:11:29.640 --> 3:11:32.320 something deeply shameful and a secret that I either needed 3:11:32.360 --> 3:11:34.640 to die with or that if I came out it 3:11:34.680 --> 3:11:37.600 would like ruin my life of all of my family. 3:11:38.440 --> 3:11:41.920 UM until I eventually, you know, I managed to not 3:11:42.000 --> 3:11:44.959 die all the way until eighteen came out, and then 3:11:45.120 --> 3:11:47.920 I found a bunch of incredible queer people, and uh 3:11:48.120 --> 3:11:52.520 have it's been alive since then. But I I was 3:11:52.560 --> 3:11:55.480 shaped by that experience, by the experience of meaning to 3:11:55.520 --> 3:11:58.800 survive knowing that I had this secret all, you know, 3:11:58.800 --> 3:12:01.640 I knew when I knew in kindergart, I like just 3:12:01.640 --> 3:12:05.160 just new with total certainty. And I also knew that 3:12:05.200 --> 3:12:08.160 it was evil and bad and that I should be ashamed. Um. 3:12:08.240 --> 3:12:12.080 And there is a whole couple there's like generation there's 3:12:12.080 --> 3:12:14.040 like a whole generation of kids right now growing up, 3:12:14.080 --> 3:12:17.480 who have you know, come out who have been born 3:12:17.600 --> 3:12:27.240 since two thousand fourteen and come out as tiny, right, 3:12:27.280 --> 3:12:29.000 so there's like a whole and then never mind like 3:12:29.040 --> 3:12:30.680 kids who weren't born before that, but who are in 3:12:30.760 --> 3:12:33.640 high school now who are coming out and like they 3:12:33.680 --> 3:12:36.840 have existed in a world where pop culture and the 3:12:36.920 --> 3:12:41.560 sort of mass culture more generally speaking, has like there 3:12:41.560 --> 3:12:44.480 are trans people on TV and they're not just serial 3:12:44.560 --> 3:12:48.120 killers or the murder victims in an SPU story. There's 3:12:48.200 --> 3:12:52.160 legitimate representation, there is, you know, you have like the 3:12:52.520 --> 3:12:55.360 you have people in national government and in state government 3:12:55.440 --> 3:13:01.040 explicitly defending trans people like they they have in enculturated 3:13:01.160 --> 3:13:04.600 to this idea that they have some semblance of rights 3:13:04.600 --> 3:13:07.959 and that civilization, that the civilization they live in doesn't 3:13:07.959 --> 3:13:11.119 want to smite them out of existence. Um, and those 3:13:11.240 --> 3:13:16.000 kids are watching this conversation shift and I don't know 3:13:16.040 --> 3:13:19.440 what that's like, but I can tell you that I've 3:13:19.520 --> 3:13:22.199 been motivated by anger to do a lot of things. 3:13:22.440 --> 3:13:24.879 And um, I don't know that I've ever been quite 3:13:24.879 --> 3:13:27.080 as furious in my life as I have been the 3:13:27.160 --> 3:13:29.880 last the last couple of months, and so being drawn 3:13:30.040 --> 3:13:33.800 towards tear it up to me, is this opportunity to like, 3:13:34.720 --> 3:13:38.039 you know, uh, I I love the Trevor Project. I'm 3:13:38.040 --> 3:13:39.680 really glad that they exist. I'm really glad that they 3:13:39.680 --> 3:13:42.240 do the work that they do. You know, like that 3:13:42.320 --> 3:13:45.800 there's all these different organs who are putting out positive messaging, 3:13:45.800 --> 3:13:48.000 but it's all pretty milk toast. You know, it's like 3:13:48.040 --> 3:13:51.400 trans people are cool. Maybe we should maybe we should 3:13:51.400 --> 3:13:53.960 give all we should give all the tender cursive baseball bat. 3:13:54.040 --> 3:13:58.800 Maybe that would be a more useful for Like, they're 3:13:58.840 --> 3:14:02.360 fucking trying to kill you, thirteen year old. They are 3:14:02.400 --> 3:14:05.959 coming for you. This world is unsafe, and I need 3:14:06.000 --> 3:14:08.320 you to know that you have somewhere to run to, 3:14:08.840 --> 3:14:11.720 that there are adults in the world who will keep 3:14:11.760 --> 3:14:14.840 you safe, who will show up for you, who are 3:14:14.879 --> 3:14:16.920 going to go and raise a bunch of hell, make 3:14:16.959 --> 3:14:20.560 a bunch of noise, do a graffiti, put up some posters, 3:14:20.959 --> 3:14:23.280 go and you know, get ourselves in trouble on the 3:14:23.320 --> 3:14:26.320 steps of the capitals all across the country, so that 3:14:26.360 --> 3:14:28.360 those kids in high school right now who are feeling 3:14:28.400 --> 3:14:32.520 like the entire fucking universe is dissolving around them into 3:14:32.520 --> 3:14:36.199 a bottomless sea of fear and hatred, but like, there's 3:14:36.200 --> 3:14:38.480 other people out there. If you're in Idaho, if you're 3:14:38.520 --> 3:14:40.880 if you were a kid who's growing up in northern Idaho, like, 3:14:41.040 --> 3:14:44.000 there's other people out there. You just have to get free. 3:14:44.720 --> 3:14:48.920 And we're specifically so our first actions we specifically target 3:14:48.959 --> 3:14:53.119 at these states that tend to be ignored by um 3:14:53.240 --> 3:14:55.880 so like the mainstream liberal media. I'm trying to say 3:14:55.879 --> 3:14:59.920 that without sounding like a whack of doodle, but we're 3:15:00.040 --> 3:15:04.440 fully past that foot great cool, I have feel like 3:15:04.520 --> 3:15:07.840 a profit. Storial re opened this show with a joke 3:15:07.920 --> 3:15:15.480 about that's true. We're fine that happened. I don't know, yeah, 3:15:15.840 --> 3:15:18.680 um but yeah, like the mainstream liberal media doesn't give 3:15:18.680 --> 3:15:22.600 a funk about Iowa or Idaho. And frankly, I've since 3:15:22.640 --> 3:15:24.360 I've lived all over the country and been involved in 3:15:24.520 --> 3:15:27.800 queer activism for like over a decade. I have friends 3:15:27.840 --> 3:15:32.240 all over and a lot of the um more higher 3:15:32.320 --> 3:15:35.280 up folks and established organs on the coasts and in 3:15:35.360 --> 3:15:39.600 big cities look at what happens in like Iowa and Idaho, 3:15:39.640 --> 3:15:41.960 in Texas and Florida, and they're like, oh no, this 3:15:42.040 --> 3:15:44.440 is a sign of what's to come, and not this 3:15:44.480 --> 3:15:47.120 affects a quarter of the country. It's already happening. Yeah, 3:15:47.160 --> 3:15:50.400 it's happens. Yeah it's not it could happen here, It's 3:15:50.440 --> 3:15:55.440 happened already. And fight for these kids desperately because their 3:15:55.480 --> 3:15:57.680 lives are at risk in so many ways right now. 3:15:57.720 --> 3:16:01.400 They're legally imperiled. The things that we're giving them hope 3:16:01.440 --> 3:16:04.400 for life are being taken away. And a lot of 3:16:04.440 --> 3:16:08.200 these laws most affect the kids that have support of families, 3:16:08.959 --> 3:16:10.600 But we need a fight for the kids that don't 3:16:10.680 --> 3:16:13.280 do and make sure that they know that, like we 3:16:13.400 --> 3:16:15.720 see you in Iowa, and we're gonna go do something 3:16:15.760 --> 3:16:18.800 melodramatic and cover ourselves in fake blood and lay on 3:16:18.840 --> 3:16:22.160 the steps of the capital in the in the state 3:16:22.280 --> 3:16:24.920 that you live in so you can see that, like 3:16:25.120 --> 3:16:30.760 your feelings are being externalized, and hopefully that'll move you 3:16:30.800 --> 3:16:34.080 to knowing that like other people are going through this too, 3:16:34.320 --> 3:16:37.720 and hopefully other people will see what's happening and it 3:16:37.760 --> 3:16:41.359 will move them to action to protect those kids. Um. 3:16:41.440 --> 3:16:43.520 And it'll give you a space to start building community 3:16:43.560 --> 3:16:46.320 and building connections for other transpeople and other people in 3:16:46.360 --> 3:16:49.879 the area who want to help keep you alive exactly. UM. 3:16:49.920 --> 3:16:53.320 And that's really the next step and tear it up 3:16:53.440 --> 3:16:55.760 is this next month, I want to have us focus 3:16:55.800 --> 3:16:58.880 a bit more on a little community building and community events, 3:16:58.920 --> 3:17:01.240 which has always been a big are My strategy with 3:17:01.879 --> 3:17:05.160 previous organizing as big lab protests followed by a pizza 3:17:05.160 --> 3:17:08.920 party UM or we did a great technic in Austin 3:17:08.959 --> 3:17:11.920 after the legislative sessions last year where we had a 3:17:11.920 --> 3:17:13.440 bunch of people show up and made a lot of 3:17:13.480 --> 3:17:16.520 good connections. UM We had a lot of the little 3:17:16.520 --> 3:17:20.680 trans kidos there and some photos that were taken there 3:17:20.680 --> 3:17:23.800 were then used as like the headline, like the the 3:17:23.840 --> 3:17:26.360 cover photos for like all these articles about the kids 3:17:26.400 --> 3:17:30.760 being attacked. Yeah. Yeah, I think that the we we 3:17:30.879 --> 3:17:34.000 pulled off our sort of first coordinated national set of actions, 3:17:34.160 --> 3:17:37.720 that the model that we're that we're looking at is 3:17:37.760 --> 3:17:40.560 groups like act up, so more of a sort of 3:17:40.600 --> 3:17:45.640 decentralized national network of UM folks who are all working 3:17:45.680 --> 3:17:49.199 together to be sort of power amplifiers to like share resources, 3:17:49.400 --> 3:17:53.080 share share tools, make sure that you know everyone has 3:17:53.120 --> 3:17:55.400 what they need and has backup in case anything gets 3:17:55.440 --> 3:17:57.800 out of hand wherever they're whatever states they're in, whatever 3:17:57.840 --> 3:18:01.600 city they're in. UM and that coalition building or like 3:18:01.640 --> 3:18:04.359 the community building part is such a such an incredibly 3:18:04.400 --> 3:18:07.760 important factor. Like I so I was coordinating, I was 3:18:07.800 --> 3:18:11.160 working on the event to have happened in Boise And 3:18:11.720 --> 3:18:13.520 you know, one of the major things that I that 3:18:13.600 --> 3:18:16.880 I ran into reaching out to all these different organizations 3:18:16.959 --> 3:18:19.879 is like, I mean, they've been at war for a 3:18:19.920 --> 3:18:23.760 long time and they have like there are literally militia 3:18:23.840 --> 3:18:28.759 groups hunting anyone who shows up at a BLM rally 3:18:28.800 --> 3:18:32.720 in Boise. Um. When I talked to, you know, some 3:18:32.760 --> 3:18:37.000 of the like executive directors of like LGBTQ oriented nonprofits 3:18:37.080 --> 3:18:40.080 in Boise, they were like, Hey, I'm really it's really 3:18:40.080 --> 3:18:43.040 cool that you're doing this, but I we cannot send 3:18:43.160 --> 3:18:46.600 our kids. Were like, we can't participate in this because 3:18:46.600 --> 3:18:48.320 we don't know you and we don't know what's going 3:18:48.360 --> 3:18:51.280 to happen. And this is like this you need to 3:18:51.320 --> 3:18:55.160 understand that this scene is like not safe. Totally fair. Yeah, 3:18:55.200 --> 3:18:56.879 so totally fair, and so like, I think a big 3:18:56.920 --> 3:19:00.760 part of this next step is deepening those connections, you know, 3:19:00.800 --> 3:19:04.720 showing people that like, we will show up, we are accountable, 3:19:05.080 --> 3:19:09.240 we are looking to be partners for long term action, 3:19:09.400 --> 3:19:14.200 for long term struggle. And one of the things that 3:19:14.360 --> 3:19:16.840 is really cool about Tear it Up that I didn't 3:19:16.879 --> 3:19:20.879 expect because I am old, so my networking has always 3:19:20.879 --> 3:19:25.200 been phone trees, UM and literally just like calling people 3:19:25.200 --> 3:19:28.360 out and being like you call these three people UM 3:19:28.480 --> 3:19:32.920 and getting people out for actions, uh, for tear it Up. 3:19:33.000 --> 3:19:36.800 We have these amazing humans at building like online communities 3:19:36.840 --> 3:19:40.840 on Discord, which makes me feel simultaneously like years old 3:19:40.879 --> 3:19:43.160 and also like the kids. They're all right, they know 3:19:43.320 --> 3:19:48.039 that how to do the trouble UM. And we're trying 3:19:48.080 --> 3:19:52.119 to not just build do this traditional coalition building that 3:19:52.160 --> 3:19:55.360 I've been doing for a long time and making all 3:19:55.400 --> 3:19:57.960 these connections, but trying to build not just like a 3:19:58.000 --> 3:20:01.160 physical community, but an online community to stitch these physical 3:20:01.160 --> 3:20:05.360 communities together because if you're in like middle of nowhere, Texas, 3:20:05.959 --> 3:20:08.120 you can see what's happening in Austin, but you can't 3:20:08.120 --> 3:20:11.400 always like physically make it there. So it's good to 3:20:11.440 --> 3:20:14.360 know that, like, these are my humans and they're fighting 3:20:14.400 --> 3:20:16.320 for me, and I can be in the loop and 3:20:16.360 --> 3:20:22.000 get involved UM. And our long term strategy with that 3:20:22.120 --> 3:20:25.560 is to connect people like UM the Trevor Project. I 3:20:25.640 --> 3:20:28.000 love a lot of the humans they're actually and like 3:20:28.040 --> 3:20:31.879 trans Lifeline in these groups because they UM and all 3:20:31.920 --> 3:20:34.720 these other like national groups that raise a lot of money, 3:20:34.760 --> 3:20:36.520 but they're actually not allowed to raise a lot of 3:20:36.560 --> 3:20:39.280 trouble because of like their tax status and all these things. 3:20:39.360 --> 3:20:44.879 Is like, uh, the HRC like can't do a trouble 3:20:45.160 --> 3:20:47.400 because it'll look bad for them, and they care about 3:20:47.440 --> 3:20:50.320 those sorts of things. But we can connect those people 3:20:50.600 --> 3:20:55.320 with these young activists that want to go stirrup ship 3:20:55.600 --> 3:20:58.600 and cause trouble and need to like let out that 3:20:58.760 --> 3:21:03.320 screaming um. And even if we can't defeat the laws 3:21:03.400 --> 3:21:06.600 in the moment, letting out that scream is a communal good. 3:21:06.760 --> 3:21:10.560 It lets people feel seen, and it lets people know 3:21:11.040 --> 3:21:14.400 I need help right now, And shouting and crying and 3:21:15.400 --> 3:21:18.400 a gnashing of teeth and rending of hair and clothes 3:21:18.520 --> 3:21:22.520 is objectively good. Actually, we need people to come together, 3:21:22.520 --> 3:21:24.120 and we need people to see our suffering, and we 3:21:24.160 --> 3:21:26.520 need people to be moved to loving each other and 3:21:26.520 --> 3:21:30.480 helping each other. And that's um how, that's how will survive. 3:21:31.200 --> 3:21:34.120 Right if we achieve nothing beyond Catharsis and we've achieved something. 3:21:35.160 --> 3:21:38.000 I loved your point about the online community component of things, 3:21:38.000 --> 3:21:40.879 because I feel like so much of trans focused online 3:21:40.879 --> 3:21:45.040 community is like, uh, you know, do I look okay 3:21:45.080 --> 3:21:47.959 in this outfit? Or like, hey, we're all fans of 3:21:48.000 --> 3:21:53.320 the same like the anime or right, like they're all 3:21:53.320 --> 3:21:58.480 they're the very specific kind of projects, and there there's 3:21:58.520 --> 3:22:00.320 not I don't feel like there's a lot of races 3:22:00.360 --> 3:22:03.880 that are like, hey, this is like the war room. Well, 3:22:03.920 --> 3:22:06.080 I mean not that we can't talk about bullshit, but 3:22:06.120 --> 3:22:09.320 like the entire focus of this space is to connect 3:22:09.320 --> 3:22:12.400 as many trans people as possible so we can amplify 3:22:12.480 --> 3:22:16.440 our power together. Um, and you know, begin to even 3:22:16.480 --> 3:22:22.080 remotely approximate the boogeyman that Marjorie Taylor Green imagines us 3:22:22.120 --> 3:22:26.360 to be. Right well, and we need to become like 3:22:26.400 --> 3:22:30.240 the trans and Sexual Menace, which is another protest group 3:22:30.280 --> 3:22:32.760 that I love from the nineties where they create this 3:22:32.920 --> 3:22:35.600 iconography around like oh, we are the trans sexual Menace 3:22:35.640 --> 3:22:38.240 and then it's a bunch of like very nice like 3:22:38.240 --> 3:22:42.560 like like very like normal looking folks. Yeah. But I 3:22:42.600 --> 3:22:45.279 think we need to reclaim that and taking in another direction, 3:22:45.440 --> 3:22:50.120 and we need to not be menacing in you know, 3:22:50.320 --> 3:22:53.280 like we need to be a good menace. We need 3:22:53.320 --> 3:22:54.800 to be a bit of an anti hero for the 3:22:54.800 --> 3:22:58.000 trans community, and we need to do fucking trouble and 3:22:58.040 --> 3:23:02.160 we need to cause problems for people. And frankly, I think, UM, 3:23:02.200 --> 3:23:04.440 too many politicians get to go to bed at night 3:23:04.840 --> 3:23:08.039 not listening to people call them motherfucker's on a megaphone, 3:23:08.640 --> 3:23:10.879 And too many people get to have a nice lunch 3:23:11.360 --> 3:23:14.119 at their favorite restaurant without that being disrupted and having 3:23:14.879 --> 3:23:18.240 things shouted at them. I think we need to become 3:23:18.320 --> 3:23:20.480 the menace that we need to be to survive in 3:23:20.560 --> 3:23:27.520 this moment. I concur with this project, and yes, I 3:23:27.800 --> 3:23:33.160 concur with this and UM enjoy enjoy participating in things 3:23:33.200 --> 3:23:36.959 that lead to those outcomes because it is it's a 3:23:37.760 --> 3:23:40.840 because they want us dead anyway, Like that's that's that is, 3:23:40.920 --> 3:23:43.560 that is what they're doing, that's what they're complacent with. UM. 3:23:43.600 --> 3:23:46.720 I think it is also an important thing to note 3:23:46.760 --> 3:23:50.280 that UM in terms of like good news, like not 3:23:50.320 --> 3:23:52.440 all of these bills are passing Like on on this show, 3:23:52.440 --> 3:23:54.080 we've talked a lot about the bills that have passed. 3:23:54.120 --> 3:23:55.720 We have talked about all the stuff that has been 3:23:55.760 --> 3:23:59.080 going on, but there is not not not all of them, 3:23:59.120 --> 3:24:00.680 not all of them are going through And that is 3:24:00.720 --> 3:24:02.879 an important thing to talk about it doesn't mean the 3:24:02.879 --> 3:24:06.840 fight's over because they're gonna try again. Um. But that 3:24:06.959 --> 3:24:10.000 is the other thing I think is worth is worth 3:24:10.040 --> 3:24:18.280 mentioning and states from you know, Florida to Idaho to Washington, Utah, Virginia, 3:24:18.360 --> 3:24:21.039 like at least there is not there is stuff that 3:24:21.120 --> 3:24:24.600 is getting blocked um or at least not going through. 3:24:25.160 --> 3:24:29.640 And there's a lesson that needs to be learned from 3:24:29.879 --> 3:24:32.720 how the right operates in this because what they did 3:24:32.760 --> 3:24:37.400 for years was opposed equal rights, was opposed things in 3:24:37.440 --> 3:24:41.000 a variety of ways socially and through legislation that failed, 3:24:41.040 --> 3:24:43.560 and it was fail fail, fail, fail fail for a 3:24:43.600 --> 3:24:47.680 long time until they started to succeed. And part of 3:24:47.680 --> 3:24:50.959 why they succeeded is because they were continuously building a 3:24:51.040 --> 3:24:55.440 wide ranging and powerful machine to push this stuff through, 3:24:55.520 --> 3:24:58.360 learning from their failures, grabbing more power, getting better at 3:24:58.400 --> 3:25:03.200 messaging and like that. Ultimately, the same attitude needs to 3:25:03.240 --> 3:25:06.280 be had, like when when one of these laws gets 3:25:06.320 --> 3:25:09.240 struck down, it's not a sign that the fight's been one, 3:25:09.320 --> 3:25:12.720 it's a sign um to keep pushing. Like it's this 3:25:12.800 --> 3:25:14.200 kind of thing where you have to you have to 3:25:14.200 --> 3:25:16.400 pay attention to the way they built this over the 3:25:16.400 --> 3:25:21.120 course of really thirty or forty years UM, because it 3:25:21.160 --> 3:25:25.640 has to be done something a counter a counterweight, a 3:25:25.720 --> 3:25:29.680 machine capable of applying equal pressure in the opposite direction 3:25:29.720 --> 3:25:31.000 has to be built, and it has to be built 3:25:31.080 --> 3:25:34.480 very quickly. Well. And nine out of the nine out 3:25:34.480 --> 3:25:37.480 of ten of these bills die and so nearly two 3:25:38.080 --> 3:25:40.080 and seventy I think it's two and sixty four is 3:25:40.080 --> 3:25:42.560 the actual account of how many anti trans bills have 3:25:42.600 --> 3:25:44.760 been proposed in the last two years since the last 3:25:44.760 --> 3:25:51.160 selection UH, and only have become law. So they're really 3:25:51.200 --> 3:25:54.040 just playing a numbers game, right, They're just forcing it 3:25:54.200 --> 3:25:57.959 through UM and they're not going to stop. And we 3:25:59.000 --> 3:26:01.960 in Texas it was so hard last year because I 3:26:02.000 --> 3:26:05.600 remember the last day of the legislative session. We were 3:26:05.600 --> 3:26:08.240 all there until midnight and cheered so hard when it 3:26:08.320 --> 3:26:10.680 was done, and we're like this BILK can't come back. 3:26:11.120 --> 3:26:14.240 And then we faced special session followed by special sessions 3:26:14.280 --> 3:26:16.560 followed by special session where they're like, we are pushing 3:26:16.560 --> 3:26:23.360 through this trans legislation and the war is not gonna stop. 3:26:24.440 --> 3:26:28.720 We we we're maybe gonna We're gonna win a lot 3:26:28.760 --> 3:26:31.240 of battles. We're gonna win the majority of battles, but 3:26:31.480 --> 3:26:35.120 they're not playing it to win those individual fights. They're 3:26:35.160 --> 3:26:38.280 playing to eventually exterminate us. And they're really gaining a 3:26:38.320 --> 3:26:41.640 lot of ground and we're way behind on building our 3:26:41.640 --> 3:26:43.920 machine to fight it. And this is all happening in 3:26:43.959 --> 3:26:48.320 the context of, you know, a a very very explicit 3:26:48.640 --> 3:26:55.040 mask off movement to essentially destroy American democracy and replace 3:26:55.120 --> 3:26:58.560 it with Christian fascism, right, And we are the scapeboat, 3:26:58.600 --> 3:27:03.640 We are the enemy that they are currently identifying for elimination. Right. 3:27:03.720 --> 3:27:07.200 So like it's you know, for them, they're like, I 3:27:07.200 --> 3:27:10.360 can score some points if I encourage this trans kid 3:27:10.360 --> 3:27:13.800 to kill themselves, right, Um. And for us, it's like 3:27:14.400 --> 3:27:19.160 an existential threat that we maybe watching the United States 3:27:19.240 --> 3:27:26.480 descend into, you know, an irreversible chasm of authoritarianism and violence. Uh. 3:27:26.520 --> 3:27:28.000 And you know that's going to be bad for trans 3:27:28.040 --> 3:27:38.880 people too. Yeah, yeah, very very understated. How can how 3:27:38.920 --> 3:27:41.840 can if people are interested in tear it up and 3:27:41.879 --> 3:27:44.240 what they're doing, how can people find out more info 3:27:45.000 --> 3:27:48.160 online about how to keep up with stuff and um 3:27:48.240 --> 3:27:53.960 and what what y'all do? So I think the best 3:27:53.959 --> 3:27:57.880 place to I guess get little updates. Um, it's the Twitter, 3:27:57.959 --> 3:28:02.240 which is at Tear it Up or Twitter, um. And 3:28:02.280 --> 3:28:08.840 then additionally we have our website, uh, which is www 3:28:08.920 --> 3:28:15.320 dot tear it Up dot org and yes good um. 3:28:15.440 --> 3:28:19.560 And then if you come and get involved and uh, 3:28:19.680 --> 3:28:21.720 you can get invite to our discord. We're trying to 3:28:21.760 --> 3:28:24.640 grow that out a little slowly and stick with folks 3:28:24.680 --> 3:28:26.920 that we know are getting involved in the fight while 3:28:26.959 --> 3:28:30.640 we sort of build the initial foundation of this. But 3:28:30.680 --> 3:28:32.920 that's the place to find us right now. Twitter, Instagram 3:28:32.920 --> 3:28:35.440 as well. We're also Teared Up Teared Up ord on 3:28:35.480 --> 3:28:39.160 Instagram and have a Facebook page. But who the fuck 3:28:39.240 --> 3:28:43.560 uses Facebook? I mean, actually, so our Facebook. We won't 3:28:43.680 --> 3:28:45.120 be posting a lot of stuff, but a lot of 3:28:45.120 --> 3:28:47.320 our events will go through Facebook because in a lot 3:28:47.360 --> 3:28:50.560 of the Midwest and the South, a lot of people 3:28:50.600 --> 3:28:53.680 still use Facebook, which is probably bad. Turns out that's 3:28:53.720 --> 3:28:57.760 not helping I think, um, But those are the places 3:28:58.360 --> 3:29:02.280 go find us, um and then come get involved. We're 3:29:02.280 --> 3:29:04.960 gonna be doing a lot more. We've sort of been 3:29:05.000 --> 3:29:07.560 on a break for a week because we did of 3:29:07.760 --> 3:29:10.240 ship ton of events last month all at once and 3:29:10.320 --> 3:29:12.960 kind of needed a week off. But staring next week 3:29:12.959 --> 3:29:15.200 we're going to be posting a lot and organizing and 3:29:15.200 --> 3:29:19.320 pulling together some community and social events and some more protests. 3:29:20.120 --> 3:29:21.960 And even if you don't want to, even if you 3:29:22.000 --> 3:29:25.080 don't want to join, join the organization. Specifically, if you're 3:29:25.120 --> 3:29:27.240 a sist ally who's listening to this and you're like 3:29:27.320 --> 3:29:30.640 this sucks, I hate it, I'd like to do something. Um, 3:29:30.760 --> 3:29:33.760 we'll we're gonna have things like you know, postering, like 3:29:33.800 --> 3:29:36.600 postering resources and stickers and all kinds of stuff that 3:29:36.640 --> 3:29:38.800 you can that you can grab and like just go 3:29:38.879 --> 3:29:41.800 paint the town. Yeah, let it. Let it be known 3:29:41.879 --> 3:29:43.840 that trans people won't be a race, but we are 3:29:43.879 --> 3:29:48.160 fighting back. We're a very pro graffiti organization. Um, please 3:29:48.560 --> 3:29:54.520 bully your local politicians and uh sticker every service surface 3:29:54.560 --> 3:29:57.720 you can get, get some paint pens. I think I 3:29:57.760 --> 3:29:59.920 think I'll do an upcoming episode on how to make 3:30:00.320 --> 3:30:03.640 or how to do wheat pasting. Yeah, as as a 3:30:03.720 --> 3:30:08.280 fun as as some fun uh content for you for 3:30:08.360 --> 3:30:12.480 you fans of content out there. But yes, follow follow 3:30:13.000 --> 3:30:15.480 the tear it Up account on the twitters. That's how 3:30:15.520 --> 3:30:18.440 I've been mostly keeping up with it, besides just asking 3:30:18.560 --> 3:30:21.360 people because I know who they are of. But the 3:30:21.400 --> 3:30:25.880 Twitter Twitter is definitely a good a good resource. Um, yeah, 3:30:25.879 --> 3:30:28.800 I guess any any kind of any other any other 3:30:28.840 --> 3:30:31.080 thoughts or notes that she would like to to add 3:30:31.240 --> 3:30:35.720 before we before we wrap up here, can I say fun, 3:30:35.800 --> 3:30:43.560 grag abbitt? Can we all just say actually k ivy? Uh? Also, 3:30:43.840 --> 3:30:48.039 um yeah, fun, lots of governors, a lot of the 3:30:48.080 --> 3:30:53.360 governor's not most most stuff. I think the vast majority 3:30:53.360 --> 3:30:57.480 of governors should go funk themselves. And um, I'll see 3:30:57.520 --> 3:31:01.560 them in how Yeah. Yeah, Um, that's a good at 3:31:01.560 --> 3:31:05.080 all plug your plug your history podcast because queer history 3:31:05.240 --> 3:31:09.000 sounds like a great thing that people should learn more about. Yeah. Well, 3:31:09.080 --> 3:31:14.160 so it's the Totally trans podcast network. We might also 3:31:14.160 --> 3:31:17.600 come up as Totally trans Searching for the trans Cannon. Uh. 3:31:17.720 --> 3:31:20.040 We were originally just the one show where we talked 3:31:20.080 --> 3:31:22.960 about pop culture and history. It was me and writer 3:31:23.120 --> 3:31:27.520 Henry Jardina. And now we have a slate of shows 3:31:27.520 --> 3:31:31.040 that we do all on the same feed. Um. One 3:31:31.240 --> 3:31:33.440 that talks about comics, one that talks about history that 3:31:33.520 --> 3:31:38.400 I love that the playwright Katie Coleman does, um called 3:31:38.400 --> 3:31:41.279 Our Sacred History. And then we have we just started 3:31:41.320 --> 3:31:44.080 the newest season of Totally Trans Searching for the trans Cannon, 3:31:44.160 --> 3:31:49.000 where we're talking about finding lessons from history and queer 3:31:49.040 --> 3:31:57.840 culture and pop culture love. Yeah, all right, yeah, buy 3:31:57.879 --> 3:32:03.400 some paint pens, uh, show up to actions if you can, um, 3:32:03.520 --> 3:32:07.080 and learn to make some trouble. Yeah. Also, megaphones are 3:32:07.080 --> 3:32:10.200 only forty dollars from Harbor Freight, just saying you can 3:32:10.240 --> 3:32:13.840 get really loud, really cheap. And it's generally legal to 3:32:13.840 --> 3:32:18.160 shout at people from outside their homes, although not not always. 3:32:18.280 --> 3:32:21.160 That can get you in some trouble, but not necessary. 3:32:21.280 --> 3:32:24.840 Check your local sound ordinances and bring a volume meter 3:32:25.040 --> 3:32:27.840 and really just amplify yourself just to that level, and 3:32:27.959 --> 3:32:30.520 learn how to add an audio so you can really 3:32:30.560 --> 3:32:33.480 just dial it in. Find the lawyer and consult with 3:32:33.520 --> 3:32:36.959 them first. Yes. Also, personally, I would like to say 3:32:36.959 --> 3:32:41.360 forced from all anti trans politicians who say that you 3:32:41.360 --> 3:32:45.600 can be peer pressured into transitioning. Um. I am personally 3:32:45.640 --> 3:32:48.520 trying to force from Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick. It hasn't 3:32:48.520 --> 3:32:52.160 worked yet, but he's very insistent it will work eventually. 3:32:52.360 --> 3:32:55.000 So I do feel like the right way to pursue 3:32:55.000 --> 3:32:59.840 that is just by deregulation and then poisoning the water supply. Well, 3:33:00.480 --> 3:33:10.080 well that doesn't for us today. Hey, we'll be back Monday, 3:33:10.200 --> 3:33:13.160 with more episodes every week from now until the heat 3:33:13.160 --> 3:33:15.520 death of the universe. It Could Happen Here is a 3:33:15.560 --> 3:33:18.400 production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool 3:33:18.480 --> 3:33:21.160 Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 3:33:21.280 --> 3:33:23.000 or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 3:33:23.040 --> 3:33:26.400 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:33:26.400 --> 3:33:29.119 find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 3:33:29.120 --> 3:33:32.400 cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.