1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you today? 14 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm doing great. Are you excited about our cruise? No? 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: I am, in fact, you know, for our listeners, Buried 16 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: Bones is going to be doing the Virgin Voyages true 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 2: crime voyage in October, and we're actually going to be 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: doing a live Buried Bones event. Kate, what do you 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: think it's going to be like recording live that seed? 20 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,559 Speaker 1: I think that's going to be Alexis's problem. Just kidding. 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really interesting. I'm excited. Listen. 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: This is virgin So it's the best of the best, 23 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: and I think we're going to have a great place 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: to present, and I think we're going to have a 25 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: lot of really good photos to look at. And I 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: think it's going to be much easier than cramming myself 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: into my little cottage. If I could do a Buried 28 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: Bones podcast on a Vergin voyage cruise every single week, 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: I would do it. And maybe we'll talk to Alexis 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: and see if she could pull something like that off. 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: All right, come on, Alexis, get on it. 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: I cannot wait to give you his three lesson at 33 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: sea Paul Holes. It's going to be so much fun. 34 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: O Kate, you always give me a history lesson. 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: I no, I know, but this is this is extra, 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: This is special for me. So you remember I told 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: you probably about a year ago, I was, you know, 38 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: in my dad's farmhouse. So my stepmother and my dad 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: bought the farm from my grandfather, and my grandfather was 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: the housing secretary for Eisenhower and he was, you know, 41 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: big in politics, incredibly influential, and so there was all 42 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: this political paraphernalia everywhere. So I went looking through and 43 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: finding all kinds of really cool eighteen hundred stuff and 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: things that was you know, were personal to me, and 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,399 Speaker 1: I found what I sent you, So open up that 46 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: document that I sent you, and I just wanted to 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: show you this and we will put this on social 48 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: media because I just think it's so cool. So I 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: don't know if you're going to be able to read it. 50 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: Hopefully I did an okay job. 51 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: Well, it looks it definitely looks old. So this looks 52 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: like a page paper bill with the number three on it, 53 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 2: like a three dollar bill. 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: You got it. The deductive reasoning skills never fail you. 55 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: But definitely doesn't look anything like something that the federal 56 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: government put out there. It has you know, Lumberman's Bank, yep. 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: And you know an image in the center top center 58 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: of a ship, you know, sailing ship couples, you know, 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: multiple sailing ships. So what exactly is this? 60 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: So in the eighteen hundreds, we didn't really have a 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: federalized banking system, so we didn't have the Federal Reserve 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: or you know, anyone churning out money like the money 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: we have today. They were able to allow banks to 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: go into what they called was the free banking system, 65 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: which means wells fargo or in this case, Lumberman's Bank, 66 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: which was owned by E. L. Fuller, could print their 67 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: own currency, and so this was a three dollar bill 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: from this guy's bank. And it was really kind of 69 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: regionally limited. This is from Iowa. There's some in Michigan 70 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: and stuff, and so you know, it wasn't printed on 71 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: the beautiful paper, the silken paper and the really expensive ink. 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: It was printed on sometimes like blap sacks and they 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: could get there. This is a nice one that I had, 74 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: and so when I found this, I thought, oh my gosh, 75 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: it's amazing. So it's September first, eighteen fifty seven, and 76 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: they're pretty rare, and it was just stuck in some 77 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: random folder in my grandfather's attic, and I'm sure had 78 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: been there for you know, decades and decades. 79 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's those old addicts. It's like a 80 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: treasure hunt. You're going through them now. So that's that's 81 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 2: really cool. 82 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: That's how we'll solve Jack the Ripper and Lizzie Borden. 83 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: In every case that we've talked about, it's somebody's attic, you. 84 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: Know, no for sure. And I will tell you there's 85 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: plenty of homicide investigators that have original case files and 86 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: original evidence, and there're boxes and garage. That's just what happens. 87 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: Well, I love relics. I call them relics, but you know, 88 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: I love little antique things like this, just because when 89 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: I find something like that, it forces me to look, 90 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: you know, like I look at it now, and I'm 91 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: looking at all the different images. Do these what do 92 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,679 Speaker 1: these mean? Like you mentioned this ship that clearly looks 93 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: like it's from the seventeen hundreds, and so looking all 94 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: this stuff up, this is not something I would auction, 95 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: even though people are auctioning these three dollars bills, I 96 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: just wouldn't sell it. I just think it's so cool. 97 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: So I'm going to get it framed around the holidays, 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: maybe in one of those okay dollar things, and put 99 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: it up around here. 100 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: It's just so cool it is. It's neat, you know. 101 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 2: And I have a I inherited, if you want to 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: call it that, a coin collection through my dad, and 103 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 2: was starting to get into it, just you know, the 104 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: history of each coin, you know, and why each coin existed, 105 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: and I you know, once I moved to Colorado, I 106 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: really haven't done anything with it, but I've been tempted 107 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: to try to you know, pull it out again and 108 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: maybe start, you know, building get out. 109 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: And that part of my family lived in Iowa. So 110 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking when you were talking about 111 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: the coins. Was you know, where did my grandfather get this? 112 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: And sure was it his dad or whoever. I think 113 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: it's just a great way for you to explore also 114 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: how that item came into your house. And so I 115 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: guess the older I get, the more interested I get 116 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: in this kind of stuff. But I had never heard 117 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: of that before a three dollars bill. 118 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: No, I hadn't either. 119 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: Well, this is a very weak connection, but we do 120 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: have a story set in the eighteen hundreds that involves 121 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: a guy who works in you know, in lumber and 122 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: logging and stuff. So that is my transition to our 123 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: cent that works. Listen. I'm always trying, even if I fail. Okay, 124 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and set the scene. Okay, First and foremost, 125 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: you know, I always like to give credit for the 126 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: journalists who work on this. There's a writer named Beth 127 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: Cruz who worked a lot on this, and we took 128 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: some of her research and you know, put it in 129 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: here along with other research. And so thank you Beth 130 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: Cruz for this one. We are in Groton, Massachusetts, in 131 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: a farmtown. Good things and bad things happen in farmtowns. 132 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: Nothing bad ever happened in my farmtown than goodness. But 133 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: you know, I love the atmosphere. If we could be 134 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: out of the city, I don't want to be in Boston. 135 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: I want to be in a farm for every single episode, 136 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: some farm. 137 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: And then you've got an axe murder lurking around every corner. 138 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, with no sheriff around or police. Yeah, just the 139 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: armed citizens, which is never good news. So this is 140 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty January seventeenth, after the Civil War. So we're 141 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: in Groton, Massachusetts. This is definitely working class town. It's 142 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: had a massive soapstone quarry that it sounded like most 143 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: of the town worked at, and it closed more than 144 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: a decade earlier. And you know, there had been a 145 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: lot of workers who came in who were diverse of 146 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: different ethnicis these and they stayed even though there wasn't 147 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: work and created new work. But by the turn of 148 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: the century, at that point, there was a really strong 149 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: feeling that was anti immigrant, anti black, anti Catholic prejudices, 150 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: and it turned this town, Groughton, into what's called a sundowntown. 151 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: Have you heard that phrase before, sundowntown? 152 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: Not at all. 153 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: Well, it's a phrase, and I don't know if we 154 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: use it very often now, but it's a phrase that 155 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: means it's not safe for people of color, particularly black people, 156 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: to be at night by themselves, especially after sundown. Okay, okay, 157 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: So this is very well known as a sundown town. 158 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: It's a cold night because it is January seventeenth, very 159 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: cold in Massachusetts. And we're at a place called Libby Farm. 160 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: There's a family that lives there. There's a thirty five 161 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: year old named Joseph Crewe and he has a twenty 162 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: seven year old wife named Maria, and they're eating lunch 163 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: in this day. So Joseph is a team Tell me 164 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: your understanding of what a teamster does? 165 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: Oh geez? You know. The only I think, the only 166 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: thing that I really relate to the teamsters is having 167 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: been involved as an employer of the county with my 168 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: local union, labor union. You know, there are times where 169 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 2: I had to interact with reps from the union, and 170 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: so when I hear the term teamster, I'm thinking, this 171 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: is somebody that is a member of a union, or 172 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,119 Speaker 2: is somebody that is actively involved in managing the union's 173 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: administrative tasks. 174 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: So I was curious too. I had always thought of teamsters. Yes, 175 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: of course as the you know in the union term, 176 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: but teamsters like their actual jobs. The International Brotherhood of 177 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: Teamsters is a large labor union in North America. There 178 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: are a lot of different workers. It could be freight drivers, 179 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: it could be truckers, is what my understanding had been, 180 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,599 Speaker 1: you know, warehouse worker. There are a lot of different professions. 181 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: And the Teamsters have been around since nineteen oh three, 182 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: but when it was nineteen oh three, they represented horse 183 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: drawn carriage drivers. So you know, it definitely is it 184 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: definitely is involves transportation, and it doesn't our story too. 185 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: So Joseph they use the term teamster. Joseph is a teamster, 186 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: and in eighteen eighty it's somebody who carts goods and 187 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: equipment and supplies between logging and other types of you know, 188 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: camp sites. So it could be from a logging site 189 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: to a mill. So he's carting stuff around. So that's 190 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,359 Speaker 1: his job. So that day he eats, he harnesses his horses, 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: and he tells his wife Maria, I'm going to go 192 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: haul logs to air junction which is several miles away, 193 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: and he said, I'm not going to be home until late. 194 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: He says goodbye, he leaves, and then we don't quite 195 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: know what happens after that, because Joseph comes home at 196 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: about eight o'clock. You've got to think maybe lunch was 197 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: at eleven. I think lunch could skew a little early 198 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. So he was gone probably eight 199 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: or nine hours. He gets home at eight o'clock and 200 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: he knows that something's wrong immediately. There is no light 201 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: in the house. It could be gas lamps or oil 202 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: lamps or candles, so the house is dark. The door 203 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: and the windows are locked, the curtains are drawn. This 204 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: is all unusual. And to get into the house he 205 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: has to go through the cellar. And I think, you know, 206 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: aside from people, especially on farms, not walking their doors 207 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: even at night. I told you my parents did that 208 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: when we were, you know, on our farm, which today 209 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: seems so surprising. Maria wouldn't have done that because she 210 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: knows that Joseph is coming home. So he has to 211 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: go through the cellar and he lights a lamp, comes up, 212 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: and he looks kind of towards the bedroom and he 213 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: sees a discolored line on the floor in front of 214 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: the bedroom. He goes into the room and he sees 215 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: streaks of blood on the floor, and then he finds 216 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: his wife dead on the floor. So you know, again, 217 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: like you have to think about this. You have a 218 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: crime scene at night, and you will have investigators showing 219 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: up here in a little bit. But sometimes I just 220 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: sit back and I think, what would that have been, like, 221 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: like when we talk about grid searches in the middle 222 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: of the night when all they have are gas lamps 223 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: or light you know, candles. Think about this guy coming 224 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: in his wife's dead on the floor and all he 225 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: has is this little oil lamp and you can't probably 226 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: tell the color of the streak. I mean, you could 227 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: see once she's there that it's probably blood, but everything 228 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: must be discolored for him. 229 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, the visibility would be poor. You know. 230 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 2: I've been inside dark houses with you know, modern flashlights, 231 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: and even with those flashlights, you just can't see what 232 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: you need to see, you know. And this is where 233 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 2: you know today, of course, if we can't, if there 234 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: isn't enough lighting naturally within let's say the residents, and 235 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: we bring in you know, basically the shoplights instead of shoplights, 236 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: so we can actually see. I mean to try to, 237 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: let's say, process a crime scene at candlelight. You're just 238 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: going to miss stuff. You know, that's not going to 239 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: work at all. 240 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: We'll have the medical examiners show up at midnight that night, 241 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: so that has to be even tougher. And I'll tell 242 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: you about that in a minute. But I was just 243 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: thinking atmospherically, you're you're coming home expecting your wife. Everything's 244 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: locked up. It is pitch black inside outside I use 245 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: this phrase sometimes nothing but starlight and moonlight. There's no 246 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 1: gas lamps around here. And then he finds his wife. 247 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: So this is going to be a mix of what 248 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: Joseph sees and kind of what the medical examiner concludes. 249 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: So Maria is lying on her back in the bedroom 250 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: in what they considered a half pint pool of blood. 251 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: She had been covered by a mat like a floor mat, 252 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 1: said her head was splashed with blood, and is resting 253 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: on a chair cushion. Okay, and I have a lot 254 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: of details about wounds and stuff like that. Do you 255 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: want to talk about the bed cushion and the mat 256 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: on top of her or do you want to wait 257 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: to talk about that. 258 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: You know, I think I need to know more about 259 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 2: her injuries. But those two aspects are very significant. 260 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: Okay, we've talked about that before, sort of you know, 261 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: covering up someone's face because you can't stand them looking 262 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: at you and all of that. So you will see 263 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: if that comes up. So she has been shot three 264 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: times in the face in once in the left chest, 265 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: according to this autopsy report. And I'll introduce you to 266 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: the medical examiner soon, who is an actual doctor. So 267 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: the autopsy report says there is a gunshot wound in 268 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: each corner of the eye beside the nose. The right 269 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: wound extends into Maria's throat. The left wound passes through 270 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: her and I had to do the I mean, I 271 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: feel so silly for having to make sure I have 272 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: the right pronouncer says stand violisten medulla oblongata medulla. Okay, yeah, yeah, 273 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: So that's where the left wound, I'm not going to 274 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: say it again, that's where the left wound passes through. 275 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: And there's a third wound present that is just above 276 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: the right eye. And they are certain it's a pistol 277 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: based on bullets and the pistol was fired so close 278 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: to Maria's face that her left eyelashes and the skin 279 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: on one side of her face were singed by powder. 280 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: There is a thin quilt partially covering her lower extremities, 281 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: and this might be the mat I'm not one hundred 282 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: percent sure, but she's covered. They said that the lower 283 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: extremities of the legs are widely extended, her undergarments are 284 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: torn open and stained, and two days later the newspapers 285 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: report that she had been outraged, which suggests sexual assault. 286 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: It will be inconclusive, though I'll tell you that everything 287 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: else that we will be talking about will be blood 288 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: and where it is in the room. So those are 289 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: the basics. Shot three times, Oh gosh. They find one bullet. 290 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: They found it because they think it bounced off the 291 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: whalebone of her corset and it landed near the body, 292 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: so it never penetrated the body. And they find a 293 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: corresponding shell near her body on the floor. Doctor Harwell, 294 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: who is our medical examiner who reported that night, does 295 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: the autopsy the next morning. He finds two twenty two 296 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: caliber bullets from her head. The shot that had entered 297 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: from the corner of her left eyes, embedded in her brain, 298 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: I talked about that the shot that had entered above 299 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: her right eyes, embedded in her frontal bone. He extracts 300 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: one bullet from the muscles of her neck, which had 301 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: entered from the shot to the corner of her right eye, 302 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: and he said he thinks the shot to the brain 303 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: killed her instantly. And then let me see about the chest. 304 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: And maybe he doesn't say anything about the chest. What 305 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: does that make a difference. 306 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: Well, from my perspective, you know, I'm taking a look 307 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: at these gunshot wounds to her eyes, in essence, very 308 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: closely spaced. In fact, the tight clustering would have suggested 309 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: to me that these all three more likely very close 310 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: range gunshots. And then the singing and probably stippling that's 311 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: present indicates that. So in essence, the offender, you know, 312 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: and I don't know if she's standing up or she's 313 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: you know, laying down at the time these gunshots are inflicted. 314 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 2: That's where you know, observations of blood flows and stuff 315 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: become important. But the offender is executing her, and he's 316 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 2: he's putting three twenty two caliber bullets into her eyes. Essentially, 317 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: he's purposely aiming for you know, center mass of the head. 318 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: And potentially he's purposely aiming at the eyes. Considering you've 319 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 2: got the way I'm interpreting, you've got two gunshot wounds 320 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: in the corners of her eyes, and then there's one 321 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: that's just above the brow. The mention of a gunshot 322 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: wound to the chest would suggest to me that that 323 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: likely would have been the first shot if that actually happened. 324 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 2: You know, the fact that the pathologist is not detailing 325 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: the chest wound gives me pause as to whether or 326 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: not that's an accurate detail. But if she does have 327 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: a gunshot wound to the chest, that may be the 328 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,719 Speaker 2: initial shot that in essence incapacitates her. And then the 329 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: offender either comes up and shoots her three times in 330 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: the face while she's upright, or she's now laying on 331 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: her back, possibly after a sexual assault, and now she's 332 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 2: executed with the three shots to the head to the face. 333 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: Well, they have a theory, and you tell me what 334 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: you think. So Maria was a sewer, and she is 335 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: wearing a thimble on her right hand finger still, and 336 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: remember the streak marks. They believe those are drag marks. 337 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: So this is what they think happen based on blood. 338 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: The way they describe her body coming up. I've been 339 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: trying to kind of picture it. Maybe you can paint 340 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: a better picture than they do. So they think she 341 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: was shot in the sitting room, which is where she 342 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: did her sewing, because there's blood on the curtain of 343 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: a work table and on the right side of the seat, 344 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: which was her work chair. They think she was dragged 345 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: on a mat, leaving blood streaks on the floor to 346 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: the bedroom. She in her left hand, she's holding a 347 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: partially sown linen wrist cuff. So this is mid job. 348 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: So here's the body positioning that I'm confused by. Even 349 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: though her body is found on the ground and her 350 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: hands are folded over the front of her body, her 351 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: arms are stiffened in a position that would only be 352 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: natural if you're in a seated PASTU would that be 353 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: like your hands on the table or what do you 354 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: think that means? 355 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 2: Well? I think you know this is Where's what I'm 356 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 2: hearing is is that she's got rigor in her upper extremities. 357 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: And it sounds like the rigor the way that her 358 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 2: arms have set in the rigger is not consistent with 359 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 2: the position of her laying on the floor, So that 360 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: would suggest she was in a different position for a 361 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: long enough period of time for the rigger to start 362 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 2: setting and then she was moved. Now is it possible? 363 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 2: And again this is where the blood patterns become hugely 364 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: significant in terms of reconstructing. But what I'm hearing is 365 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 2: it sounds like she potentially was shot while she was 366 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 2: at her sewing station and maybe collapsed onto that sewing platform, 367 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 2: if you will, for a period of time, maybe long 368 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: enough for the rigger to set, and then the offender 369 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 2: chose to move her. And that would tell me the 370 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 2: offender was inside this residence for a significant period of time. 371 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: And you know why would the offender move her? Is 372 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: it possible that she was more visible for you know, 373 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: somebody looking in from the outside, and so he's trying 374 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: to move her away from any windows, and that's why 375 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: he's doing that. And then of course, you know, covering 376 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: her up maybe to you know, delay anybody from the 377 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: outside possibly seeing a body lying motionless on the floor. 378 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 2: But there's a cushion underneath her head. Okay, that's for comfort, 379 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: that's this is this is where And I've got a 380 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 2: case like this in nineteen sixty six case you know, 381 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: a more modern case. But it tells me something about 382 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 2: the offender is even though she's dead, he's still wanting 383 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: to comfort her and he's covering her up. So this 384 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: is where you know, behaviorally, in the offender's mind, he 385 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 2: has some sort of emotional connection to Maria. That's how 386 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: I'm interpreting things now. Her undergarments being torn, her legs 387 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 2: left spread. You know. Right now, I don't know do 388 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: we truly have sexual assault that occurred, or do we 389 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: have an offender that is trying to stage the crime 390 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 2: to make it look like maybe an intruder, a stranger 391 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: came in, a sex devian came in and attacked her 392 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 2: and sexually assaulted her and then killed her. Right now, 393 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 2: I can't form an opinion, but the covering of her 394 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 2: and the cushion underneath her head suggests to me at 395 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: this point in time, there's a strong emotional connection between 396 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: the offender and Maria. 397 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the sexual assault part, Okay, So our 398 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: medical examiner is named Benjamin Hartwell, and he's got a 399 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: constable and a bunch of other officers who came to 400 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: the scene with him. Like I said, min night, when 401 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: she has discovered when he does his autop seat. He 402 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: examines her undergarments, so he doesn't do a swap. He 403 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: examines her undergarments with a four hundred power microscope and 404 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: he sees traces of semen. But he can't say whether 405 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: this was recent or a year ago. So all we 406 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: know is there's semen on her undergarments. 407 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what he's I mean with a microscope like that, 408 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: what he is doing is he's taking either a cutting 409 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: and putting it on a microscope slide and then probably 410 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 2: putting like a saline solution or water or oil, and 411 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: then looking at it under this high magnification. And what 412 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: happen would be visualizing sperm. I've never done it that. 413 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 2: I've done a lot of microscopic examinations for sperm, I've 414 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: never done it that way, So I'm not entirely sure 415 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: how effective that type of microscopy would be. 416 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: Well, it is inconclusive whether she's sexually assaulted, according to 417 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: doctor Hartwell, he just said, I just know it's there. 418 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: So let's talk about kind of the scene the police 419 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: with the constable, and we're just going to go with 420 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: investigators because there were really great competent constables in the 421 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds the constables don't have a lot to go on. 422 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: They don't find a murder weapon, so they don't find 423 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: that twenty two. There doesn't appear to be according to Joseph, 424 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: there doesn't appear to be anything missing from the crew house, 425 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: and Maria's got a gold ring on and that's not 426 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: missing either. She's wearing the gold ring. There's no struggle 427 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: in the house, and during the search of the surrounding 428 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: area they find shoe prints in the snow. These will 429 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: become important. Maria doesn't have any enemies in town, to 430 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: which I kept thinking, you know, okay, well what farm 431 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: woman would, But they do, and so she seems like 432 00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: a very likable person, no controversy. They suspect Joseph for 433 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: a little bit. He has an alibi. He has a 434 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, who know that he's logging 435 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: and see him. Eyes are on him, so he seems 436 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: to have an alibi. He's also only a couple miles away, though, 437 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: so they start looking for I'm telling you, quote unquote 438 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: tramp is the word they use, and of course that's 439 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: a go to for police in the eighteen hundreds. Do 440 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: you think that in some ways that's still a go 441 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: to what happens when the police run out of options 442 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: in the person's inner circle or even outer circle, what 443 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: do they do next? Are they kind of looking for 444 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: the sex offenders in the neighborhood and all of that. 445 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know that that is just you know, part 446 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: of investigating a case, especially when you suspect that there 447 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 2: is a sexual assault. You know, we would go in 448 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: addition to looking at the social circle. You know, in 449 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: most investigations, you start with the victim and you start 450 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: building out, you know, the closest circle around the victim 451 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: to the next circle, et cetera, in terms of figuring 452 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: out who potentially could have been involved with the case. 453 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: But there's also the ideas well, there's no connection between 454 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: the victim and the offender, and this is where you go, Okay, 455 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: who do we know that's in our area that has 456 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 2: a propensity for committing these types of crimes? And of 457 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: course you know sex offender registered sex offenders in the 458 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 2: area is one of the first go tos that in 459 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: any investigation like this that we would do. So these 460 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: constables looking at tramps, which I guess that's sort of 461 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: a like a I guess, a transient type. 462 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: Person kind of a wanderer, but I would say tramps, 463 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: so transient I think back then didn't have the connotation 464 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: that maybe it does have now. I mean a transient 465 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: then would have, you know, been somebody who just was 466 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: hopping from job to job because there were so many 467 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: short term jobs around. They weren't on a railroad, or 468 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: they would work in lumber or something. It didn't necessarily 469 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: mean someone who was, you know, homeless or a petty criminal. 470 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: But I would say tramp is closer to that. 471 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: So yeah, so more of you know has what we 472 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: use the registered sex offender list today. You're looking at 473 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: people who you think have or they thought had the 474 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: propensity to commit this type of crime. 475 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: M So let's talk about somebody who they focus on, 476 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: and you tell me what you think. The neighbors report 477 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: seeing a strange man in the town on the day 478 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: of the murder. So this is how they describe them. 479 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: Forty years old ish, he's about five foot seven. He's 480 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: described as having a thin, yellowish face, a mustache, and 481 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: a scruffy beard. So the yellowish face is indicative of 482 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: somebody who is of mixed race. That's kind of the 483 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: phrase they might use. I mean, there is a slur 484 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: that I'm not repeating on here, Okay for it, but 485 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: this is what they're saying. It's a man of mixed race. Now, 486 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: just that description forty five foot seven, somebody of mixed race, mustache, 487 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: gruffy beard. Is that enough for somebody to go on 488 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: in a town that seems moderately diverse at the time. 489 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: No, that would be tough. You know, you'd want to 490 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: also have description of clothing, you know, and typically like 491 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: when there is in this day and age, when a 492 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: crime has recently been committed, now you have patrol broadcasting 493 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: a description which may indicate these types of characteristics. In addition, 494 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 2: look for somebody who has these identifiers, if you will, 495 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 2: looking forward to having the facial hair, yellowish face, but 496 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: also what kind of clothes do they have on, because 497 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: that's going to stick out more than some of these 498 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: other aspects. Five foot seven, that'd be really tough to 499 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: pick somebody out like that. 500 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: We have some witnesses, so tell me what you think 501 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: about the viability of these witnesses. One is a guy 502 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: named Henry Hewan. He's twenty one. He's a neighbor of 503 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: the cruise. He says around two thirty pm, so probably 504 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: three hours after Joseph left, he had seen a man 505 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 1: fitting the description of this guy at Maria's house. Maria 506 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: was in the dining room talking to him. And what 507 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: Henry says he was kind of picking up on is 508 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: this is someone who was interested in buying a farm. 509 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: So maybe he was there kind of just doing some reconniscence, 510 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: looking in the area. What might be good, might not 511 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: be good. But I don't know much about Henry or 512 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: his relationship with the cruise. But this is what he says, Oh, yes, 513 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: this is a guy that I saw with Maria. 514 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: Okay, And it sounds like Henry is close enough to 515 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 2: overhear the conversation. 516 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: Yes, so he maybe it was in passing and then 517 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: he saw her in the in the dining room through 518 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: the window. We don't know. 519 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 2: Sure, but that's three hours after Joseph left, and we 520 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 2: have I'm going to say nine hours of a window 521 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 2: in which Maria's killed. So now this shortens the window 522 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 2: if Henry's right and that Maria is alive and talking 523 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: to a man, So now you have six hours left 524 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: in which Maria was killed. One of the concerns that 525 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: I have is this rigor in her in her arms, yeah, 526 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 2: you know, because that's going to take some time. And 527 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: so that's where it's like, oh, that window is starting 528 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 2: to get almost too short considering how cold the temperatures are, 529 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: because that's going to delay onset of rigor. So this 530 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 2: is where it's like, Okay, what's going on here? I 531 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: can't conclude anything, but I'm thinking there might be an 532 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: inconsistency here with the physical evidence a state of Maria's 533 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 2: body and what this witness is saying is going on. 534 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about the rigor because 535 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, she's gripping cloth in one hand, and she's 536 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: got this you know, I mean, she's got her hands 537 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: in a position which I can picture kind of being 538 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: set up parallel, maybe like she's getting ready to sew. 539 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: And so I was wondering how long that would take 540 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: if we take Joseph's statement, because Joseph I don't have 541 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: his side of what her arms looked like and everything, 542 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, when he arrived. I just know what doctor 543 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: Hartwell said that she would stiffened. And let's say that's 544 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: eleven PM. So is that a twelve hour thing for people? 545 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: And I know that the weather makes a difference in 546 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: one more point, Paul, when he says pitch black, nobody 547 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: indicates that there's a fire happening in the fireplace, which 548 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: would have been their only heating source. So there's no fire. 549 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we are probably talking about, you know, below 550 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: freezing temperatures that night. 551 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: So as far as the rigor that it's so so variable, 552 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 2: that's one of the you know, it's something that is 553 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: documented and observed. But to be able to say it's 554 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 2: going to take so many hours to see rigor in 555 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 2: the various parts of the body is tough. It's just 556 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: an indicator of passage of time since death with Maria 557 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: holding on you know, like the what is it the 558 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: thimble in one hand and something else. 559 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: She had she had a fabric for a wrist okay 560 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: covering in the other hand. 561 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: So rigord will generally start in the smaller muscles before 562 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: it goes to the larger muscles of the arms. And 563 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 2: so you could see where, you know, she's collapsed for 564 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: a period of time and had these objects in her hands. 565 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 2: Now you could see where her hands have riggered up 566 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: and then she's moved and the hands are holding on 567 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: to these items due to the you know, the rigor 568 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: there is a phenomenon. It's called cadaveric spasm where sometimes 569 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: when somebody, let's say, is shot in the head, you know, 570 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: they will end up gripping on to an object. You know, 571 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: we see that with suicide. Sometimes when somebody shoots themselves 572 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 2: in the head, they're shooting hand kind of grips and 573 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: spasms around the gun and as they kind of hold 574 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 2: on to it. It really does seem that Maria is 575 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: shot at her sewing station and is there in some 576 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 2: sort of position that cause is maybe her hands to 577 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: rigor up, to hold onto these items, her arms to 578 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: rigor up, So she's there for a period of time. 579 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: And I'm just trying to rectify in my head what 580 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: Henry is saying, Like, you know, six hours before Maria's found, 581 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: she's alive, talking to a man that matches this description 582 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: of a yellow faced guy sitting at the dining room table. 583 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: It seems like, well, that seems too short of a 584 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: time for them out of rigor that is being observed 585 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: with Maria. 586 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: Let's talk that through she's at her table, somebody comes 587 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: in shoots her three times, and then he has to 588 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: leave her there for a long time, right, and then 589 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: he puts her on this mat that they're talking about. 590 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: She's bleeding still. He drags her into the bedroom, covers 591 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: her lower extremities up, I mean, is the idea, then 592 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: he sexually assaults her. If this even is a sexual 593 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: assault at all, it. 594 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: Could go either way, you know, like I meant, I mean, 595 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 2: this very well could be where you first. Why would 596 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: Maria just be shot at the sewing table if this 597 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 2: was intended to be a sexual assault. And it's not 598 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 2: to say that you don't see victims killed right away 599 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: and then offenders will sectually assault the dead victim. That 600 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: does happen. But to shoot Maria and leave her there 601 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 2: for a significant period of time and then drag her 602 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: to another room to sexually assault, I mean, I guess 603 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: it's possible, but it seems inconsistent with sort of the 604 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 2: timing of everything. 605 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: Well, let's move on to another witness who corroborates Henry. 606 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 1: Her name is Jenny Carr. She's sixteen, and she says 607 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: that she had seen what she thinks is this same 608 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: guy at Maria's house. She went over there to borrow 609 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: a couple of molasses. Around three o'clock. The guy answers 610 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: the door. He said to Jenny, Maria went into town 611 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: to go pick up some stuff. Jenny says, this is sketchy, 612 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: and she also notices that the curtains of the front 613 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 1: of the house have been drawn, which is unusual. And 614 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: before the strange man had answered the door, when she 615 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: was knocking, she heard a noise like somebody being dragged, 616 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: but she wasn't sure. And of course, now that she 617 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: knows what happens to Maria, she's putting those sounds together. 618 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: So that isn't that is those are kind of our 619 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: only two witnesses other than people generally say, there's this 620 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: guy of mixed race. We don't know who he is. 621 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: He's a stranger in our town that day. 622 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: Okay, well this, you know, obviously, with this guy that 623 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: does not live at the residence, if he's the one 624 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: that's answering the door, this sounds like Maria is already 625 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: dead at this point when Jenny comes to borrow the molasses. 626 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 1: So between two thirty and three o'clock, I mean, of Henry, 627 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,919 Speaker 1: if they're both right on these times, within a half 628 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: an hour, this happens. 629 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: Right, and Maria's body is found by Joseph at nine o'clock. 630 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 2: So again we you know, basically the six hour window, 631 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 2: but it's no longer. I mean, this is really putting 632 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: Maria dead at two thirty to three o'clock in the afternoon. 633 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: So now it could be pushing it out to well, 634 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: maybe she was dead for seven hours. But you have 635 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 2: this the two witnesses who are one Henry is very 636 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 2: familiar with Maria, and then Jenny obviously must be very 637 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: familiar with Maria being a neighbor and going over to 638 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 2: borrow molasses, and they see this man and the description 639 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: is consistent. So you know, yeah, I'm putting a fair 640 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: amount of veracity on these two witnesses in terms of, Okay, 641 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: this guy matching this description is going to be suspect 642 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: number one. Now who is he and what is this 643 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 2: relationship with Maria? Was he just a random that knocked 644 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: on the door saying, hey, I see your farm is 645 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 2: for sale. Can we chat? Or does he have some 646 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 2: sort of prior maybe business relationship with Joseph and Maria 647 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,959 Speaker 2: or maybe you know, maybe Maria is having an EFEC 648 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: and you know, Joseph is gone and she invites this 649 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: man over. 650 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: I have one question for you. So Jenny says that 651 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: right before the guy opens the door or a minute 652 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: before she hears dragging. Now, she might have misinterpreted what 653 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: that was, But didn't we say that in order for 654 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: the rigor that the medical examiner described. At three o'clock 655 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: when she's knocking, should Maria still be sitting at the desk? 656 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: I mean, she also could have been wrong. Who knows. 657 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 2: This is where it's kind of tough to say for sure. 658 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 2: You know what the sequence is if you know Henry, 659 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 2: Henry sees Maria alive. Jenny appears to arrive at the 660 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 2: house shortly after Henry, and there's an ear witness in 661 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: essence hearing movements inside the house that would suggests Maria 662 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 2: is now dead. And this is where that seems inconsistent 663 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: with the state of Maria. If if I'm interpreting how 664 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 2: Maria's arms through, it's just a verbal description that her 665 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: arms are riggered up and she's been moved from a 666 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 2: her sewing station to this other room. Something is inconsistent. 667 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: And that's just what gives me pause right now as 668 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: to what exactly is going on. And with this man, 669 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: with Jenny hearing this man dragging Maria before opening the door, 670 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 2: I'm wondering now is he doing an Oh shit, somebody 671 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: is knocking at the door, and if I open the door, 672 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: as it possible that they want to come in and 673 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 2: see Maria dead at the sewing station. And now he's 674 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 2: scrambling to hide the body before he opens up the 675 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 2: door to Jenny. 676 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: Well, and I have another question. Let's say, before we 677 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: get to a suspect, let's say that Maria maybe is 678 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: having an affair with this guy. Well, let's say first 679 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: that he is a stranger, and she is at her 680 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: sewing desk, and she's got her afric in one hand, 681 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: and she's got her thimble in another hand. Her front 682 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: door's open, and clearly she's not in defensive mode at all. 683 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 1: She's literally sewing. I don't even know if they surprised her, 684 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: but you know, I think if they surprised somebody surprised her, 685 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: she would have her hands in a different position. I mean, 686 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: they were very clear that it looked like she had 687 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: her arms were like she had been sitting somewhere sneaking 688 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: up on someone. As a person who has lived in 689 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,320 Speaker 1: an eighteen hundreds house, sneaking up on someone in a 690 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: house with authentic eighteen hundred floors that are wooden planks 691 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: would be really difficult. They are squeaky. It's awful. It's awful, 692 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: you can breathe, and somebody might disagree with me. But 693 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: our farmhouse was straight out. I mean, we had not 694 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: changed out that would and you know there's no way 695 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: you could get even fifty feet without making a squeak. 696 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: So I'm just saying the affair thing seems a little 697 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: more kind of like somebody who was maybe invited in 698 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: and she knew her husband was going to be gone 699 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: for a long time, but I don't know. 700 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: So I think the covering of her body, the kosha 701 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 2: underneath her head, would suggest that there's potentially a close 702 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 2: relationship between the offender and Maria. So the affair aspect 703 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,120 Speaker 2: I think is in play. Also, just from a sequence standpoint, 704 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 2: if we take Henry's account at face value, and he's 705 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: seeing Maria talking to this man and that's at I 706 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 2: think you said the dining room table, Maria then goes 707 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 2: to her sewing station. Has this man left and now 708 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 2: Maria goes to do her sewing or is she comfortable 709 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,359 Speaker 2: enough with this person? It's like, hey, I got some 710 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 2: sewing I need to do, so let's continue our conversation 711 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 2: that would suggest, well, this is more than a stranger 712 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 2: that's just dropping in for a business transaction or a 713 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 2: stranger entirely that's forced his way into the house because 714 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: Maria is not going to be comfortable enough to go sow. 715 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: So that also suggests that no, there's potentially a something 716 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: on the level of at least a friendship between Maria 717 00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 2: and this man, and maybe more. 718 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: Well, let's move on to the investigation. The constable in 719 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: charge takes these descriptions and he launches an investigation into 720 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: a man who fits this description very well. His name 721 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: is Stearns Kendall Abbot. Abbot is forty one. He is 722 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: a wood carver. He is of mixed race, and he 723 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: came to the town on January sixteenth, which is the 724 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: day before Maria's murder. Let me give you his background, 725 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: and you tell me if there's anything that's alarming to you. 726 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: He's a petty criminal, is the way I would describe him. Allison, 727 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: who is our wonderful researcher, gave me a really great 728 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 1: detailed description of everything that he's done, and I've sort 729 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: of condensed it in that he had been arrested for 730 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: breaking and entering starting from when he was a kid. 731 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: And he also once stole a United States Postal Service 732 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: mail bag. He stole a horse at one point, a 733 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: horse and buggy. There's some miner what I would consider embezzlement, 734 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: nothing violent. But Abbot has been in and out of 735 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: jail for most of his life since he was a kid. 736 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: So then I can kind of we can go back 737 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: to the scene and where Abbot was that day. But 738 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: you tell me, what do you think about kind of 739 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: the petty criminal aspect of it. 740 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 2: Just because he has these minor offenses, doesn't it's not 741 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 2: an indicator of the level of violence that's being exhibited 742 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 2: in Maria's homicide. Maria is targeted, you know, she is 743 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 2: killed at her sewing station by what it sounds like, 744 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 2: prior to being moved and prior to any maybe sexual 745 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: assault that's occurring. Now, this doesn't mean that Abbot could 746 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:41,399 Speaker 2: not Just because his previous you know, petty offenses don't 747 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: add up to this level of violence, doesn't mean that 748 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 2: he's not capable of that level of violence. But it's 749 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 2: not really anything that's popping out at me like, oh God, 750 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 2: this guy is somebody that we really need to look 751 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 2: at I also have concerns if he's just arriving in 752 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 2: town the day before, that doesn't seem like from the 753 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 2: And it's somewhat speculative, educated speculation about Maria potentially having 754 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 2: a closer relationship to this offender than just being a stranger. 755 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: I mean, Abbot's going to be a stranger to Maria. 756 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 2: That's you know, if he's just arriving the day before 757 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 2: into town, unless there is a previous connection and he's 758 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,399 Speaker 2: coming back in town. And right now, you haven't said 759 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 2: anything that they have a longer term relationship than just 760 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 2: that single day, not. 761 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: That we know of, okay, And I would think that 762 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: if they did that, these neighbors would have certainly noticed 763 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: and probably alerted Joseph to some strange man, particularly a 764 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: man of color showing up at his wife's house. It's 765 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 1: hard to sneak around, even in the countryside, you know. 766 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: So but let's continue on, because the constable is really, 767 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: you know, focusing in on Abbot. So the constable goes 768 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: from door to door and he asks local residents to 769 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: identify the guy who they saw wandering around. Jenny and Henry. 770 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: Necessarily they do talk to those two, but just the 771 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: people who said there's a stranger in town, and so 772 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: he shows them six or seven pictures of noted rogues. 773 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: So noted, you know, like a gallery of rogues was 774 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: very common, and actually the photography in the eighteen eighties, 775 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: they would have committed photography even though it was expensive 776 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: to rogues in that time period, just to be able 777 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: to identify these people. So they all say, this is Abbot, 778 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 1: but he's nowhere to be found. And we have the 779 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: two witnesses, Jenny and Henry, the neighbors who saw him 780 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: the most, and they say, this is the same guy. 781 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: We've got people saying this he was the stranger that 782 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: we saw, but they're not implicating him in anything. And 783 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: then you've got Jenny and Henry who say, this is 784 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: the guy who was with Maria. 785 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 2: All right, you know, so we have to track down Abbot. 786 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: There you go. That's what the Constable does. January twenty eighth. 787 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,760 Speaker 1: January twenty eighth, so this whole thing starts on the seventeenth. 788 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: So I don't know why I'll do this to myself 789 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: with all the mathing. Eleven days eleven days later, the 790 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: Constable gets a tip from a farmer in New Hampshire 791 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: that he had been there. So this is about forty 792 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: miles north of Grouton, Massachusetts. So Abbott has been spotted there, 793 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: he's looking for work. The constable tracks him down and 794 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 1: he's arrested, and he returns to Massachusetts and he's arraigned 795 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: in February. So he says, I don't know what you're 796 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: talking about. I mean, he really is saying this is 797 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: not He's got, you know, court appointed defense attorneys. He 798 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: pleads not guilty. He says that this is impossible because 799 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 1: he had boarded a train for Boston at Littleton station 800 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: before the crime was committed that same day, but there's 801 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: no one nobody knew him, so nobody there could identify him. 802 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: So he's saying, I have an alibi, and you know, 803 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: moving forward through this trial, the prosecutor is going to say, 804 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: not really, you really don't well. 805 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 2: And in many ways though, now it's Abbot's word versus 806 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 2: Jenny and Henry. Yeah, you know the witnesses that are 807 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 2: placing him at Maria's house right around the time of 808 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 2: her homicide. It seems like they moved pretty fast to 809 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,240 Speaker 2: arrest Abbot. So it's like, did they recover the gun? 810 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 2: Do they have, you know, any clothing from Abbots that 811 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 2: has you know, blood staining on it, So that's you know, okay, 812 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 2: what kind of case did they make against Abbot or 813 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 2: are they just relying upon Jenny and Henry's statements. 814 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what the defense says first, and 815 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:44,280 Speaker 1: then we'll talk about the prosecutors. So the defense says 816 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: that the medical examiner could not conclude there was a 817 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: sexual assault, So let's just say rape is out the window. 818 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,959 Speaker 1: We don't know if that's true or not, but that's 819 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: their point if they're talking about why would he even 820 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: do this? So they're saying, we don't know that he 821 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted her. There's no proof and nothing was stolen, 822 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: So what is the motive of this guy going in 823 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: and murdering a perfect stranger? And then you know, the 824 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: judge tosses out a bunch of stuff from the defense. 825 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,399 Speaker 1: There is evidence that shows that there was another man 826 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: who had been at that house on the day of 827 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,959 Speaker 1: the murder, and you know, I don't know anything about 828 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: it because it didn't end up in any of the 829 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: court hearings, but they said that there was somebody else 830 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,719 Speaker 1: around there. The judge says you can't have that ind 831 00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: so we're not going to let you have that in 832 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,320 Speaker 1: and then they aren't allowed to challenge Jenny the sixteen 833 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: year old's testimony that she saw Abbott in the house 834 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 1: by impeaching her character. So what they want to say 835 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: is she has a questionable reputation, the sixteen year old, 836 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,280 Speaker 1: and the defense wants to get her on the stand 837 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,919 Speaker 1: and dismantle her character, which, of course I said, great, 838 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad that that didn't happen. You know, I don't 839 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,240 Speaker 1: really care what her reputation was. Unless she's a professional liar, 840 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: that shouldn't happen. But the fence is kind of throwing 841 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: up their hands and going, what are we supposed to do? 842 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: The only witnesses don't know who he is. He doesn't 843 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: have a ticket for a train, so that this is 844 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:12,279 Speaker 1: not looking really good. And the prosecutor is saying he 845 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: came in, he sexually assaulted her, he killed her, and 846 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: that was that. I don't think there was a nitty 847 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: gritty about the rigor or the positions of the body 848 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: or anything. It was very simple, open and shutcase for them. 849 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 2: It really doesn't sound like a strong case at all, 850 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 2: you know, I think it's there's suspicion on habit, but 851 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 2: I you know, you still have to build the case out, 852 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 2: and right now they've jumped the gun. Now they just 853 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 2: have witnesses that are fingering him, but they don't have 854 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,320 Speaker 2: any evidence against him. 855 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Well, more evidence that they wanted to introduce 856 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: that the judge said no to. Is interesting. They had 857 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: evidence that Joseph had a history of domestic violence. Okay, 858 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: there was a story that he had confronted Maria and 859 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: a may visitor and I had no idea what was 860 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,279 Speaker 1: happening with this male visitor six years earlier with an axe, 861 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: and he chased the guy off. I don't know anything 862 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: else if there was physical violence, which wouldn't surprise me, 863 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: but the judge said no to that also, But there 864 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: is nothing connecting Abbot to the murder, and since the 865 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 1: crew family hadn't been robbed, there's no motive and the 866 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: sexual assault, so the prosecutor is building its case totally 867 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 1: on like I said, circumstantial evidence. They think that Abbot 868 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: and Maria knew each other in the past and they 869 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,880 Speaker 1: revived some old quarrel an Abbot killed her in a 870 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: fit of rage because I think the prosecutor has given 871 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: up on the rape allegation. Also, there's no proof of 872 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: any of this, but they're just trying to think, how 873 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,919 Speaker 1: do we place this guy there when he hasn't sexual 874 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: assaulted her and he hasn't sold anything. 875 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 2: From a theory standpoint, I like the theory that there 876 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 2: potentially was a prior relationship between Abbot and Maria and 877 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 2: some quarrel happened when Abbot is inside that house and 878 00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 2: he pulls out a gun and shoots Maria, and then 879 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,720 Speaker 2: he leaves her at the sewing table for a period 880 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 2: of time and then ends up moving her, maybe because 881 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 2: of the knock on the door by Jenny, and that 882 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,800 Speaker 2: would account for the covering of Maria's body, the cushion 883 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 2: underneath her head, because of you know, he's now got 884 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 2: that emotional connection to Maria and is now recognizing he's 885 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 2: done something horrible. So I'm on board with that. It's 886 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,400 Speaker 2: just that, well, you've got to have a case against Abbot, 887 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 2: and right now they don't have anything. 888 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 1: Well, the jury disagrees, of course, they deliberate. Of course, 889 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: they deliberate for two hours and it's a guilty verdict. 890 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 1: There is appeal that is denied and he is sentenced 891 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: to be hanged that following year. 892 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,400 Speaker 2: Justice was swift back in the eighteen eighties. 893 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,120 Speaker 1: Yes, and the color of his skin was not helpful, 894 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,719 Speaker 1: you know. Or so here are some updates, So hang 895 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,200 Speaker 1: on to your hat, Paul Holes. This taught me a 896 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: lesson about witnesses. And I know it's already a lesson 897 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,719 Speaker 1: kind of both of you definitely know, but I need 898 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: to be reminded. So because he has given the death penalty. 899 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: It hasn't happened yet, but the rumor mill turns that 900 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,720 Speaker 1: Jenny lied because word on the street that is soon 901 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 1: proven to be true is that Jenny had a baby 902 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: with Joseph. Okay, yeah, you know, we don't know that 903 00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 1: until we hear from the locals after the trial. Thinks 904 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: a lot locals. 905 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. Now the circles back to Joseph. You know, 906 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:47,760 Speaker 2: really how strong is his alibi? Does Maria confront Joseph? 907 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,240 Speaker 2: Does she find out about Jenny? And does she confront 908 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 2: Joseph or is Joseph just going well, I got to 909 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 2: get rid of my wife because I have a future 910 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 2: with this sixteen year old girl who's now pregnant with 911 00:51:58,840 --> 00:51:59,400 Speaker 2: my child. 912 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: She ad that baby. 913 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,840 Speaker 2: At the time. So the baby was born by the time. 914 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: Of I believe. 915 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:09,120 Speaker 2: So, so is Jenny actually putting herself you know, she's 916 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 2: pointing the finger at Abbot, maybe trying to protect Joseph. 917 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 2: But is she also putting herself at the crime scene 918 00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,399 Speaker 2: at some point during this this homicide and she has 919 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 2: to come up with an excuse. And her excuse is 920 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 2: why I went over to borrow molasses And here's this 921 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,279 Speaker 2: unknown man answering the door. Something's going on. So now 922 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 2: has Abbot been hung? No? Okay, so how does this rectify? 923 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,400 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you're being impatient, Yes I am. Now you 924 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 1: mentioned a long time ago to alibi. So Joseph had 925 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: been hauling logs all day, except he was not seen 926 00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 1: for about an hour. Okay, So he's unaccounted for for 927 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,520 Speaker 1: an hour in the afternoon. It could be even earlier. 928 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: And he's only one or two miles away from the house. 929 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 2: All right, So here's the theory. He goes from hauling logs, 930 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 2: you know, because he's purposely setting up an alibi. Don't 931 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 2: know why he's he's killing Maria just yet, but he 932 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,560 Speaker 2: he goes, he shoots Maria while she's at the sewing table, 933 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:13,640 Speaker 2: he goes back to work, and then he of course 934 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,799 Speaker 2: is the one that finds Maria. So he potentially at 935 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,320 Speaker 2: this point is moving Maria from the sewing table into 936 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 2: the back bedroom. And you know, this is where the 937 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 2: rigger has already set in, so that's consistent. And then 938 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,359 Speaker 2: he does have an emotional connection to Maria even though 939 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,520 Speaker 2: he's killed her, but that emotional connection is exhibited through 940 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 2: this behavior of covering her as well as putting the 941 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,439 Speaker 2: chair cushion underneath her head. 942 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,720 Speaker 1: So the moral of the story is Joseph doesn't understand 943 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: the way rigamortis works, obviously, because he would have moved 944 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: her immediately right Instead, she's sort of sitting at a 945 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,440 Speaker 1: desk permanently. 946 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you know, it's unless you've got a lot 947 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 2: of experience with dead bodies, and you see, you know 948 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,960 Speaker 2: how the lividity you know, settles, how it sets how 949 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 2: rigor you know, sets in. You know, he probably isn't 950 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 2: even thinking about, oh, if I let her just stay 951 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,359 Speaker 2: in that position for a period of time and then 952 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,960 Speaker 2: move her, well, it's going to be obvious she's been moved, 953 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 2: you know, So it's and it's going to be obvious 954 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,279 Speaker 2: that there's been a significant amount of time from the 955 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 2: time she died to the time she was moved, and 956 00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 2: who has access to Maria over that period of time. 957 00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,279 Speaker 1: Well, and what I was wondering, I was thinking two things. One, 958 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: he shoots her in the chest. She's I'm sure screaming, 959 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,319 Speaker 1: and he shoots her trying to get to the head, 960 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,160 Speaker 1: and that's how the two eyes get hit. 961 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,839 Speaker 2: Do you think, Well, he's putting the gun right up, 962 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, within you know, we'd have to do a 963 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,439 Speaker 2: distance determination. But if she's got singing, she's probably got 964 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 2: what we call stippling, the gunpowder being you know, embedded 965 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 2: into the skin around these gunshot wounds. He is coming 966 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:54,360 Speaker 2: up close and is purposefully shooting her, So it would suggest, 967 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,239 Speaker 2: you know, as I mentioned before, the shot to the 968 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 2: chest is likely the first shot. And then you know 969 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 2: whether she kind of collapses in the sewing thing at 970 00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 2: that point or she's now going what And he comes 971 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 2: up and then very close range, shoots her three times 972 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 2: in the face in the eye area, and now she 973 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 2: in essence assumes whatever position she assumes and dies in 974 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,520 Speaker 2: that position at the sewing station. He leaves and then 975 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,840 Speaker 2: comes back hours later, and then now moves her body, 976 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 2: and that all just adds up from the sequence information, 977 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,760 Speaker 2: you know, in terms of how this shooting would have occurred. 978 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 2: The physical characteristics of Maria's body when found, the blood 979 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 2: stained patterns, the streaks on the floor, of her being moved, 980 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,440 Speaker 2: the offender's personal connection to Maria, the covering up of 981 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 2: the body, the cushion underneath the head. That all just 982 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,840 Speaker 2: makes sense. Now. The question is, is okay, what caused 983 00:55:55,520 --> 00:56:00,000 Speaker 2: the homicide to occur? Sounds like the relationship with Jenny 984 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 2: is critical to that. But was this where Maria's telling 985 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,160 Speaker 2: him I'm done, you know you're having an affair a 986 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,200 Speaker 2: relationship with the sixteen year old neighbor, or was there 987 00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:17,239 Speaker 2: something else going on here? Was this where Jenny's pressing Joseph, going, hey, 988 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 2: I've got your baby. You need to take care of me. 989 00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 2: You need to end your relationship to Maria. I mean, 990 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,960 Speaker 2: there's there's many different, I guess permutations of what would 991 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:28,920 Speaker 2: cause Joseph to feel that he has to go and 992 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:29,760 Speaker 2: kill his wife. 993 00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,879 Speaker 1: I have one more rigor question. So we've talked about 994 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: the arms, how it looked like her arms were. She 995 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:38,920 Speaker 1: had to have been seated to have her arms in 996 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: this position kind of I guess, hanging in the air 997 00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,080 Speaker 1: her legs. So they said that the extremities lower extrevities 998 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: were widened. So if she's at a machine, she's probably 999 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,600 Speaker 1: got her legs spread right and on feet on the ground. 1000 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: Would the rigor have taken effect by then? My question 1001 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,799 Speaker 1: would be, is that a natural position so that it 1002 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,480 Speaker 1: looks like maybe she has and sexually assaulted and when 1003 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,680 Speaker 1: he dragged her everything is stiffened at that point, or 1004 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,160 Speaker 1: because the leg muscles are bigger. Was there some play 1005 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,000 Speaker 1: in there where he could do he could put her 1006 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: in whatever position her legs at least that he wanted. 1007 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:17,720 Speaker 2: Right, you know, So yes, you know, the legs being 1008 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 2: much larger muscles than the arms. Maybe the complete rigger 1009 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,360 Speaker 2: that they would eventually assume has not completely set in 1010 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 2: like maybe the arms have. But you can break rigor, 1011 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 2: you know. So that's where you know, we'll get to 1012 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,360 Speaker 2: where like if when we have the deceased person at 1013 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,280 Speaker 2: the morgue, we have to take viger prints, you know, 1014 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,840 Speaker 2: and their hands are all crumpled up and their forearms 1015 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 2: are stiff, their arms are stiff. You have to sit 1016 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,120 Speaker 2: there and manipulate and you can eventually work that through. 1017 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,880 Speaker 2: So this is where looking at well, what really is 1018 00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,760 Speaker 2: the position of her legs did the offender did Joseph 1019 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 2: purposely spread her legs to make it look like a 1020 00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 2: sexual assault. Her undergarments were torn, right, So that sounds 1021 00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:03,480 Speaker 2: like okay, this sounds like staging. 1022 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: Okay. 1023 00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 2: So he's now coming back to the house after she's 1024 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,440 Speaker 2: been dead at the sewing station, he moves her and 1025 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,240 Speaker 2: now he's trying to make it look like something it's not. 1026 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,240 Speaker 2: He's trying to misdirect the investigators to a tramp. 1027 00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,800 Speaker 1: And you know, if we go back to witnesses, So Jenny, 1028 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,560 Speaker 1: obviously everything she said is out the window. I don't 1029 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: read anything about Henry and if he had a reason 1030 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,120 Speaker 1: to lie, so it is possible he did see somebody. 1031 00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: He could have seen Abbot a petty criminal there. I 1032 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,720 Speaker 1: have no idea. Not killing, not the result of a murder. 1033 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: But I don't know how Henry fits into this. But 1034 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 1: I have not read anything about him, you know, be 1035 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,360 Speaker 1: impeached or anything like his testimony, his testimony being inaccurate. 1036 00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,640 Speaker 2: Right, an Abbot has completely denied being at Maria's house. 1037 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 2: He's just going I was not there. 1038 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:58,400 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, but we also know about cross racial misidentification. Sure, 1039 00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,040 Speaker 1: and I don't know how far away him was, so 1040 00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, it could have been a lot of different things, 1041 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,120 Speaker 1: but Jenny lied for sure. So here's what happens. We've 1042 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,880 Speaker 1: got two new developments. Number one is that when this 1043 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 1: comes to light, when all these rumors turn around. Initially, 1044 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,400 Speaker 1: Jenny says, we don't have a romantic relationship. I mean, 1045 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,920 Speaker 1: she's sixteen and he's I think it's thirty seven. I 1046 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,480 Speaker 1: don't have a romantic relationship with him. There is a 1047 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,800 Speaker 1: well known social reformer in the area named Wendell Phillips, 1048 00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,560 Speaker 1: and he campaigns on Abbot's behalf. They delay the execution, 1049 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,880 Speaker 1: and there's a council appointed to reinvestigate this whole case. 1050 00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: They bring Jenny's doctor and have him testify, and he said, 1051 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,720 Speaker 1: this is Joseph's kid, and Jenny breaks down and admits it. 1052 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,440 Speaker 1: She doesn't say anything else, but the governor commutes Abbot's 1053 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 1: sentence to life in prison and they close the case. 1054 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:51,000 Speaker 2: Oh good god. 1055 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,800 Speaker 1: So now this poor guy knows that one of the main, 1056 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:59,080 Speaker 1: probably the most important witness against him wide and was 1057 00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,600 Speaker 1: having an affair with the guy who probably killed his 1058 01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,240 Speaker 1: own wife. And he's still sitting in prison, you know. 1059 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,400 Speaker 1: So this was probably about eighteen eighty two or so. 1060 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: In eighteen eighty five, Joseph is on his deathbed. Now 1061 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,240 Speaker 1: I have no idea why he would be. He would 1062 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,240 Speaker 1: only be in his forties. I don't know what happened. 1063 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:21,760 Speaker 1: But he's on his deathbed and he allegedly confesses to 1064 01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,920 Speaker 1: murdering Maria to his doctor. The issue is is that 1065 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,200 Speaker 1: reporters are trying to confirm this, and nobody knows which 1066 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: doctor that he talked about when he died. So, you know, 1067 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,360 Speaker 1: they go to Maria's to the normal doctor for the 1068 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 1: crew family and he says, I don't know you know 1069 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,520 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. So that is the rumor. I 1070 01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,520 Speaker 1: don't know if that's true. But with all this talk 1071 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,320 Speaker 1: of this mysterious doctor receiving a confession from Joseph on 1072 01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:53,440 Speaker 1: his deathbed, Abbot's defense team comes forward and says, well, 1073 01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 1: we actually got a letter shortly after Abbot was arrested, 1074 01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,960 Speaker 1: and it was a confession from someone, and we tossed 1075 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: it out because we thought it was from a crank 1076 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: and it would just be distracting. We don't know if 1077 01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,400 Speaker 1: that's real or not. I'm sure that happened all the 1078 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,919 Speaker 1: time in these kinds of cases, but it's interesting when 1079 01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:19,080 Speaker 1: you pair that with Joseph's supposed confession. We don't know, 1080 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,200 Speaker 1: we have a doctor who who might not be real, 1081 01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,200 Speaker 1: and we have a confession letter who you know, might 1082 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,960 Speaker 1: be from a crank. So that's what makes this case mysterious. 1083 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:31,480 Speaker 2: Sure, you know, and it's too bad that they got 1084 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,880 Speaker 2: rid of that letter because I would be interested, well, 1085 01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,680 Speaker 2: what details did the writer of that letter put in 1086 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:40,760 Speaker 2: about how the crime was committed? And were those details 1087 01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,800 Speaker 2: accurate and not known to the general public at that 1088 01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:47,720 Speaker 2: point in time the letter was written. You know, that's 1089 01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,640 Speaker 2: frustrating because that potentially right there. Could I'm not even 1090 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:54,360 Speaker 2: sure what's happened to Abbot at this point. He's life 1091 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,800 Speaker 2: in prison is last you told me. But yeah, you know, 1092 01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 2: could that letter have been used to free Abboit let me. 1093 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,400 Speaker 1: Tell you the end of this. So Abbot is in 1094 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:08,360 Speaker 1: prison again from eighteen eighty five until finally in nineteen eleven, 1095 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:14,400 Speaker 1: So twenty six years after this letter, after the supposed confession, 1096 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,160 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, he's still there for twenty six years. 1097 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: The governor of Massachusetts pardons him Abbot is seventy one 1098 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: at this point. He went in at forty one, and 1099 01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,439 Speaker 1: he spends his final years in Vermont with relatives. And 1100 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,040 Speaker 1: this is an unsolved case. 1101 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:34,040 Speaker 2: It is, but it isn't. 1102 01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,560 Speaker 1: It isn't. Yeah, there was some sort of justice, I 1103 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,560 Speaker 1: guess for Joseph dying younger in his forties. I have 1104 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,320 Speaker 1: no idea what happened, but sure, oh what an awful case. 1105 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:50,680 Speaker 2: You know, you well, I think you know. What I 1106 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:55,760 Speaker 2: just want to emphasize is how evaluating what the offender 1107 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,640 Speaker 2: is doing at the crime scene to the victim can 1108 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,240 Speaker 2: be very very insightful as to who the offender is. Yeah, 1109 01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:08,560 Speaker 2: and that's where you know, Abbott just never made sense 1110 01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,680 Speaker 2: to me based on what you told me what happened 1111 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:13,840 Speaker 2: at the crime scene and happened to Maria and how 1112 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,800 Speaker 2: she was riggered up. But it also just shows you 1113 01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:21,040 Speaker 2: once kind of the the train is put in motion 1114 01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 2: against a suspect, you can see how it's very hard 1115 01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,240 Speaker 2: to get that train to stop. 1116 01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:33,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And the alibis. And every time we hear 1117 01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,000 Speaker 1: of a spouse, a man or a woman who has 1118 01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: an alibi, I always think they could have hired somebody 1119 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: or you know, there's a myriad of things they could 1120 01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,120 Speaker 1: have paid off people we don't know. And now you 1121 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:45,880 Speaker 1: see logging all day long does sometimes it doesn't mean 1122 01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:49,760 Speaker 1: logging all day long. So that this one, I think 1123 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: you really lit up with this case, which you don't 1124 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:56,280 Speaker 1: always with eighteen hundred cases. And you didn't even require photos, 1125 01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:57,240 Speaker 1: which I think is great. 1126 01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,640 Speaker 2: Well, the photos would have been helpful, but no, you 1127 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 2: did a job describing what's going on. So it gave 1128 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,840 Speaker 2: me enough to go on. And it comes down to, 1129 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,880 Speaker 2: you know, the primary reasons people kill, And what we 1130 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:12,600 Speaker 2: see in this case is you know, this this whole 1131 01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:15,640 Speaker 2: lovers if you want to call it a lover's triangle, 1132 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,960 Speaker 2: you know, with Jenny the sixteen year old. Yeah, so 1133 01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,600 Speaker 2: I have no doubt what happened. Joseph was Maria's keller, 1134 01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:24,360 Speaker 2: and you know it was just again, it was a 1135 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 2: fascinating case with a little twist there at the end 1136 01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:28,760 Speaker 2: that you you put on me. 1137 01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,920 Speaker 1: Well, if I didn't think that I could auction off 1138 01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,760 Speaker 1: this three dollars lumber bill for a million dollars, I 1139 01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,480 Speaker 1: would send it to you as a prize for all 1140 01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,440 Speaker 1: that rigor stuff. I mean, I think I'm going to 1141 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:41,960 Speaker 1: use that in a book someday. I really like that. 1142 01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:44,480 Speaker 1: I like learning about that stuff. I don't know if 1143 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,320 Speaker 1: I've talked about Riggor as much as we did on 1144 01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,080 Speaker 1: that case, so right. I love the eighteen hundred so 1145 01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:50,840 Speaker 1: much that I predict we're going to be back in 1146 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:54,000 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds very very very soon with a very 1147 01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 1: different case. I'm sure. 1148 01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:57,160 Speaker 2: Sounds good. I'm looking forward to it. 1149 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,760 Speaker 1: Go back to your is it your dad's coin collection? 1150 01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,600 Speaker 1: That's what your assignment is over the next week. 1151 01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,840 Speaker 2: I you know what, I have it right down to 1152 01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,360 Speaker 2: the left of me. I need to bring it out 1153 01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:09,160 Speaker 2: and kind of remember what I've got. 1154 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,360 Speaker 1: Okay, we will see you next week. 1155 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:12,880 Speaker 2: Sounds good, Thanks Kate. 1156 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,840 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 1157 01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,400 Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried 1158 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:28,000 Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 1159 01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 2: Research by Alison Truble and Kate Winkler Dawson. 1160 01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,800 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 1161 01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:36,400 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 1162 01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:38,680 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 1163 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:43,080 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 1164 01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,720 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 1165 01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:47,960 Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod. 1166 01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,000 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 1167 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,040 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 1168 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,400 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and. 1169 01:05:55,360 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases, 1170 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:01,480 Speaker 1: is also available now. 1171 01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:05,560 Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1172 01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,520 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts