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Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios.

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and I love all things tech. And

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Speaker 1: it is Friday. That means it is time for another

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Speaker 1: classic episode. And this episode published on January second, two

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Speaker 1: thousand thirteen. It is also Chris Palette's final episode as

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Speaker 1: a co host of tech Stuff. Chris and I created

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Speaker 1: tech Stuff back in two thousand and eight, and in

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Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen he decided to step away from the

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Speaker 1: show to focus on other things, and he definitely put

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Speaker 1: his imprint on tech Stuff. Tech Stuff would not be

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Speaker 1: the show it is without Chris Palette. This was the

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Speaker 1: topic he decided he wanted to cover as his final episode.

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Speaker 1: The wonderful wizard named was Steve Wasniak. I hope you

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Speaker 1: guys enjoy the curtain sweeps down, the spotlight goes out

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Speaker 1: on our beloved Chris Palette. It is his final tech

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Speaker 1: Stuff episode. This is not a joke. We may eventually

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Speaker 1: be able to get him back on as a guest,

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Speaker 1: but he's this is his his final episode as a

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Speaker 1: host of tech Stuff. And uh, and he got to

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Speaker 1: choose whatever topic he wanted. Unfortunately, almost all of them

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Speaker 1: were ones we had already covered. Well. Actually, it surprised

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Speaker 1: me that we didn't have a podcast on the person

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Speaker 1: that we wanted to talk about today. Yeah. We we've

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Speaker 1: mentioned him in several podcasts. Yeah, but yeah, we definitely

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Speaker 1: one of text more colorful characters, right, and that, of

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Speaker 1: course is the wonderful wizard named was was, yes, Steve

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Speaker 1: Stephen Gary Wazniak. Yeah, um, one of the co founders

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Speaker 1: of Apple. And he was born in on August eleventh,

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Speaker 1: nine and uh. He came from a family that was

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Speaker 1: technologically inclined. His dad was an engineer at a little

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Speaker 1: company called lockeed Martin. I feel like I've heard of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and uh and yeah he um. As a as

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Speaker 1: a kid, he became very interested in engineering and electronics.

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Speaker 1: Did you did you hear about what his favorite book

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Speaker 1: series was that kind of inspired him? Actually it was

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Speaker 1: the I looked at a lot of interviews. He's actually

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Speaker 1: if you've never seen an interview with Wozniak, he's a

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Speaker 1: very animated individual, well spoken, very passionate about what he does.

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Speaker 1: It's clearly he truly enjoys technology like there's no irony there.

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Speaker 1: He just loves it. And though he doesn't necessarily love

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Speaker 1: all the things that we do with technology or the

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Speaker 1: way that companies handle technology, he's not He actually is

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Speaker 1: not so not in such a big fan of big companies.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get an to that. But no, as a kid,

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Speaker 1: his favorite book series was the Tom Swift series. So

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Speaker 1: Tom Swift, if you don't know, he's a young man

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Speaker 1: who is a kind of an engineer who could build

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Speaker 1: just about anything in his own company. He would fight

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Speaker 1: evil and and solve mysteries and things of that nature.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, just as a tangent, Tom Swift plays

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Speaker 1: a role in a in a totally different technology has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with Wozniak. Do you do you happen

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Speaker 1: to know what Tom Swift? It's actually his. Tom Swift's

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Speaker 1: name is lent in a way to this technology. Really. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's Taser. Oh right, Taser stands Taser's technically an acronym.

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Speaker 1: It stands for Thomas A. Swift's electric rifle. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think we mentioned that a long time ago when

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Speaker 1: we talked about the Taser. Yeah, I think so. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: he in an interview. He credited the Tom Swift books

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Speaker 1: as igniting his imagination at the idea of creating things

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Speaker 1: electronics and being able to have kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of these adventures, and having a dad who

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Speaker 1: was an engineer at Lockeed Martin didn't hurt because it

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Speaker 1: turned out he had a really good person to go

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Speaker 1: to when those science fairs came up in elementary school.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, and uh it certainly wouldn't have hurt

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Speaker 1: his interest in technology to have a family that understood

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Speaker 1: and supported those interests too. They go, oh, you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is something I like too, so you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should uh stop clowning around, he said foolishly. I

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Speaker 1: was a a Tom Swift e nice, he's a he's

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Speaker 1: a Yeah, he had a He credited his dad and

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Speaker 1: some of his teachers in elementary school as really inspiring him. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: he said that, uh, you know, when he started to

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Speaker 1: excel at science, Uh, the teachers responded, and that just

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Speaker 1: drove him to make even more accomplishments in that area.

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Speaker 1: So by the time he was in sixth grade, he

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Speaker 1: actually built a fairly primitive but a working computer that

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Speaker 1: could play Tic tac toe and you know, we all

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Speaker 1: know from the documentary War Games that it's just a

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Speaker 1: short hop, skip and a jump from Tic tac toe

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Speaker 1: to thermonuclear war. Of course, you know, shall we play

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Speaker 1: a game? Thanks Whopper? Hey nice you remembered the name

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Speaker 1: and everything. Yeah, I've I've watched that documentary several times.

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Speaker 1: So the old cup modems where you actually had to

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Speaker 1: put the phone and I'm sure actually it's probably remembers

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Speaker 1: those days. Oh yeah, we'll get into that a little

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Speaker 1: bit too. Well. I was has also got a bit

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Speaker 1: of a mischievous streak in him. Um a bit, yeah,

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Speaker 1: a bit of a mischievous streak. That was a bit

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Speaker 1: of an understatement. Yeah, well to it well. In sixth

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Speaker 1: grade he also got his ham radio license, So obviously

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Speaker 1: he was very much interested in electronics and technology and

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Speaker 1: can indication all of these things would play a very

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Speaker 1: large role in his choices further down the line. And

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Speaker 1: according to laws, he said, he never took any courses

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Speaker 1: on building electronics or computers. He just learned how to

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Speaker 1: do that all on his own, at least at least

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Speaker 1: in the elementary in high school years. Once you get

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Speaker 1: to college, he actually was pursuing originally Uh. When he

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Speaker 1: when he first enrolled, he was pursuing a degree in

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Speaker 1: electrical engineering and computer science at the University of California

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Speaker 1: at Berkeley. Yeah, and that's that's sort of a lesson

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Speaker 1: for all of us. You know. Um, sometimes programming and

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Speaker 1: fiddling with electronics and those kinds of things can seem

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Speaker 1: really daunting, and it feels like, you know, you start

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Speaker 1: dabbling in and it feels like you need a degree

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Speaker 1: in computer science or electrical engineering to do these things.

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Speaker 1: You don't. You just have to have an interest and

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Speaker 1: get the right right place to start. And it also

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Speaker 1: helps to uh surround yourself within other fellow enthusiasts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it didn't hurt that was is categorically a genius

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Speaker 1: in certain arenas, so that gave him a leg up

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Speaker 1: as well. But tales details. Yeah, Well, while in while

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Speaker 1: in the both in high school and in college, he

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Speaker 1: began to associate with other people who are really interested

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Speaker 1: in electronics and technology. Uh and uh he was part

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Speaker 1: of a homebrew computer club. Yes, that would be v

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Speaker 1: homebrew computer club. Yeah. Back back in the mid seventies,

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Speaker 1: um was was at the University of California at Berkeley.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh, he was he was interested in attending this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this nearby computer club, the Homebrew Computer Club, and uh

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Speaker 1: there were actually quite a few people of note who

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Speaker 1: are part of this UM. But they were interested in

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Speaker 1: before you get into the details of that kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: this group was really kind of interested in what you

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Speaker 1: could do with computers because, uh, in the mid nineties seventies,

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Speaker 1: we weren't talking about uh, machines like the Apple too,

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Speaker 1: where you had a monitor toing on top of a

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Speaker 1: computer with a keyboard and you would program stuff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we were uh, they were interested in in the large

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Speaker 1: part and things like the Altaire, which had no monitor.

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Speaker 1: You you would read, um, the the output of this

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Speaker 1: device by the blinking lights or you know, in German

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Speaker 1: dust princing light, as many a many many jokes have gone.

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Speaker 1: But really, I mean, it wasn't It wasn't something that

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Speaker 1: the average person would probably be likely in picking up,

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Speaker 1: simply because there was kind of a barrier of entry.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to understand for people who were sort

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Speaker 1: of passingly interested in it. And we talked about the

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Speaker 1: IBM s and the machines that corporate customers would use

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Speaker 1: where you had punch cards and and you know, printing

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Speaker 1: and large storage devices and things like that. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean those were far more easy in some ways

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Speaker 1: to understand because there were more ways to interact with

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Speaker 1: those machines, but they were also hugely expensive and took

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Speaker 1: up a lot more space than something like the Altair.

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Speaker 1: This is the kind of divice ice that got people thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, I could have a computer in my house.

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Speaker 1: I could do things with a computer. I could program

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Speaker 1: this thing this, this could be fun. What could I

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Speaker 1: do with this? And that's really what this group was

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Speaker 1: all about. And there were other people, uh interested in

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Speaker 1: this as well, like a guy named Jobs, and I

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Speaker 1: believe a couple of guys named Alan and Gates to

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Speaker 1: show up in the logs, and there were there were

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Speaker 1: other people who interacted with all of those guys that

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Speaker 1: that floated in and out of that culture out there

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Speaker 1: in California around that time. Yeah, this is this is

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Speaker 1: the birth of the personal computer age. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the the very early days and uh and you know,

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Speaker 1: of course Bosniak plays a very large role in that,

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Speaker 1: but also uh he had other interests in in finding

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Speaker 1: out how stuff works, which you know we can appreciate, um,

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Speaker 1: like the phone system. He was, he was known to

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Speaker 1: engage in a little phone freaking now and then. We

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Speaker 1: actually have talked about phone freaking in the past. Essentially,

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Speaker 1: what phone freaking was was finding out how the telephone

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Speaker 1: system worked and then exploiting that knowledge by being able

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Speaker 1: to UH to create things that would allow you to

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Speaker 1: make free phone calls. Um. Usually it would involve recreating

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of tone that the phone would then

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Speaker 1: um not recognize the fact that you were dialing. It

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Speaker 1: wouldn't register that, so it act as if the line

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Speaker 1: had not been engaged, whereas you could actually make the

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Speaker 1: call for free. So UM, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: different kits that you could do this with. There, of course,

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Speaker 1: was the famous UH whistle, Yes, UH, the the Captain

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Speaker 1: crunch whistle, or you could whistle into a phone and

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Speaker 1: with this particular toy whistle that came in the Cereal

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Speaker 1: and UH it would recreate the exact pitch you needed

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Speaker 1: in order to UH to hack the phone system. That

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Speaker 1: changed before too long and they had to start creating

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Speaker 1: electronic devices that could generate Normally it would be two

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Speaker 1: tones together to be able to UH to actually hack

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Speaker 1: into a phone system. Yeah. Well, um, if if you

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Speaker 1: haven't done any research into into phone freaking or listen

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Speaker 1: to the podcast from Man that was a long time. UM.

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Speaker 1: Basically that the deal was that they had the system

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Speaker 1: in place so that the phone company could do maintenance

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Speaker 1: work and the phone technicians out in the field could

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Speaker 1: use these certain codes. UM. In the case of one

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Speaker 1: of them, it was a high E played three times

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Speaker 1: and that would unlock the system. It was a very

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Speaker 1: analog system at that point. And uh, you know they

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Speaker 1: the phone company actually published information on this in their

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Speaker 1: Bell Technical Journal, which was available at your local library,

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Speaker 1: and certain people figured this out and any whistle. This

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Speaker 1: is famous because a famous phone freaker named Captain Crunch

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Speaker 1: named that because he realized that the toy whistle that

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Speaker 1: you found in a box of cereal, I'll let you

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Speaker 1: guess which brand, Um, yes, exactly. How How did you know? Um?

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Speaker 1: You could you could play exactly that note. That's all

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Speaker 1: you needed. You all you had. All you had to

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Speaker 1: do was know that the code and have that whistle. UM.

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Speaker 1: And of course Bell went nuts trying to get the

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Speaker 1: technical that copy of the technical Journal back off the shelf.

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Speaker 1: That this was a mistake to let that information get

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Speaker 1: outside the door of Bell. Yeah, that was not not

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Speaker 1: a great move. We published this, you're not supposed to

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Speaker 1: want to read about it. Yeah, but people who were

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Speaker 1: interested in electronics, I mean, clearly something as complex as

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Speaker 1: the telephone uh system would be fascinating to them, and

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Speaker 1: that included people like wasn't it Yes? Absolutely? And uh

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Speaker 1: it's it's famous that he and Steve Jobs were actually

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Speaker 1: building phone freaking systems for other people, um and and

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Speaker 1: trying to sell them, which they did on a small scale,

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Speaker 1: and that which kind of set the ground for for

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Speaker 1: their future endeavors together. They He actually did withdraw from

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Speaker 1: the University of California before completing his degree and began

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Speaker 1: to work for Hewlett Packard and was an an engineer there.

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Speaker 1: He actually worked specifically on designing calculators. Meanwhile, Jobs kind

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Speaker 1: of came up with this idea. Now, but when you

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Speaker 1: talk about Jobs in Wosniac, they had very different roles

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Speaker 1: when in those early days of Apple, right, Steve Jobs

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Speaker 1: was an idea guy, he was a business guy, and

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Speaker 1: he was a marketing guy most more than anything else.

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Speaker 1: He was a marketing genius. Yeah. I've been reading Isaacson's

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Speaker 1: biography of Steve Jobs, and I'm still not quite done

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Speaker 1: with it yet, but I have passed through the early

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Speaker 1: stages of Apple. There and apparently when they were working

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Speaker 1: on the Apple one, which was a very basic computer. UM.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you had the the very

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Speaker 1: early machines weren't really machines. They were a set of boards,

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Speaker 1: basically motherboards and pieces that you would assemble into a

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Speaker 1: case and use it as a computer UM, which sold

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Speaker 1: for as Jonathan likes to point out, the sum of

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Speaker 1: six sixty six dollars and sixty six cents. Wozniak likes

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Speaker 1: repeating digits. Yeah. Apparently, well, according to them, it had

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with the symbolic nature of this in uh,

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Speaker 1: in religion, it was more THEO there was no but

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Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine that it it's an Apple computer. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Of course they also say that Apple was chosen for

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Speaker 1: other reasons than the Yeah. That's funny because because Wozniak

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Speaker 1: said that he had just guessed at some point that

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Speaker 1: the reason why Steve Jobs wanted to call the company

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Speaker 1: Apple was that Steve Jobs had worked for a while

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Speaker 1: in an orchard in either Washington or Oregon, and that

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Speaker 1: that perhaps gave him the idea which may or may

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Speaker 1: not be the case, because he said the thing about

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Speaker 1: Jobs was that he would come up with ideas but

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Speaker 1: not necessarily explain to you how he came up with him. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. We also should point out that there was

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Speaker 1: this time in jobs life where he was expanding his

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Speaker 1: consciousness a little bit. Yes, yes, Um, Jobs attended read

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Speaker 1: college up in Oregon and did not finish there, but

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Speaker 1: was was very interested in a number of things, including, uh,

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Speaker 1: expanding one's horizons to the use of chemical substances. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very very diplomatic way of putting it. That's not

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Speaker 1: I don't get the sense that that was is interested

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Speaker 1: in that. I think he likes to expand his consciousness

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Speaker 1: through technological means, which again shows that difference. Jobs was

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Speaker 1: this marketer and Wozniak was the engineer. He was the

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Speaker 1: guy who was really designing the technology. Yeah, well that

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Speaker 1: was That was actually exactly My point is according to

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Speaker 1: the isaacs and story, Um was wanted to give away

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Speaker 1: the design for the original boards for the Apple One,

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Speaker 1: and Jobs said no, no, no, we could sell this thing.

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Speaker 1: We can make a company, And that intrigue was just

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Speaker 1: enough to go, Okay, yeah, let's give it a try. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because before at at the Homebrew Computer Club, Wasniak would

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Speaker 1: distribute designs that he would come up with for for

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Speaker 1: computer kids. He would design them on paper and then

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Speaker 1: he would just distribute copies of it to the other members.

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Speaker 1: And jobs was getting to the point where he's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, if we didn't give these away for free,

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Speaker 1: I bet people would pay for them. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: he he convinced Wozniak to go in with him on

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Speaker 1: a venture together, and this was the idea of Apple. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't It wasn't easy, Um, you know, Wasosniac

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Speaker 1: was a little reticent to leave HP. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: think about it if you were if your buddy is

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Speaker 1: telling you, hey, let's go start a company. Meanwhile you're

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Speaker 1: in with a very strong technology company and you're you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got a good job, it's secure, and it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: they're on on the one hand, you got the allure

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Speaker 1: of of you know, this opportunity to do something really cool,

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Speaker 1: but hey, you know, there's not a lot of security,

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Speaker 1: and it's starting your own company can be a challenge,

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Speaker 1: and it can be a lot of work, and it

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Speaker 1: can be scary. Yeah, And a first guarantee, right at first.

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Speaker 1: He did continue to work with HP, didn't quit immediately.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, one of the stories about founding Apple

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Speaker 1: is that they had to in order to raise the

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Speaker 1: capital they needed, which was not that much by today's standards.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even if you were to convert into today's dollars,

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Speaker 1: they it was a fairly low investment. In fact, that

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Speaker 1: was one of the things that Steve Jobs was able

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Speaker 1: to to use to convince Bosnia to try. It was

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Speaker 1: because the investment was not going to be prohibitively large,

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Speaker 1: but it's still required that they raised some capital, and

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Speaker 1: they did it by selling off stuff that they owned,

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Speaker 1: and Wozniak sold off his beloved scientific calculator, Yes, which

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Speaker 1: at the time was a pretty hot piece of technology. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for around something something to the tune of around five

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Speaker 1: dollars at the time, which you know in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: That's that's it's still a good chunk of change, right,

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Speaker 1: It's it was even more so back then. And uh,

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing to me was that when I read

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Speaker 1: an interview, a more recent interview, wasn't he act really

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Speaker 1: downplayed that? He said, he said, uh, well, here's the

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Speaker 1: thing I'm still technically working for HP, and because I

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Speaker 1: worked for HP, I could buy the next new calculator

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Speaker 1: before it came out and at a lower price than

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Speaker 1: I did the older calculator. So uh so I thought,

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Speaker 1: even at this company that I'm working on with jobs

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Speaker 1: goes belly up, I still, um, I still have the

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Speaker 1: protection of working for this other company, and I can

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Speaker 1: get my calculator back. Yeah, that's um, which is an

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Speaker 1: important part of context that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people miss. Um. But yeah, the the Apple one did

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Speaker 1: reasonably well within those circles, and they started working on

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Speaker 1: the Apple too. Um. Jobs play, I mean, jobs played

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Speaker 1: a good part in the getting it into stores, But

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Speaker 1: Wazniak had a lot to do with the back end

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Speaker 1: of that machine, especially the the Basic language implement implementation.

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Speaker 1: There you go. He was unfamiliar with Basic at first,

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Speaker 1: and uh, just kind of funny. It's funny, it's hard,

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Speaker 1: but not with Basic. It's also funny that he got

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Speaker 1: really uh he started to really say the basic version

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Speaker 1: that HP uses, which is not the same as the

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Speaker 1: Basic language that that Bill Gates was working on. So um,

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Speaker 1: it was he was coming at it from a different

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Speaker 1: approach because he was you know, I think at the

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Speaker 1: time he was actually working under the assumption that was

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Speaker 1: essentially the same thing, but turned out it was two

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Speaker 1: different versions of basic to two pretty significant different versions. Also,

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00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: I should point out, so so they founded Apple in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, and it wasn't it was just nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven when Apple two came out, so that that

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Speaker 1: first Apple, we should really point out, it was more

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Speaker 1: like a almost like a run of prototypes. It would

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Speaker 1: they only made a small, a relatively small number of

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Speaker 1: these because, for one thing, they didn't know how big

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Speaker 1: the demand was going to be. They knew that their

348
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Speaker 1: fellow computer enthusiasts would enjoy this kind of thing because

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Speaker 1: they also shared the vision that computers would one day

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Speaker 1: be an integral part of our lives. But at the time,

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Speaker 1: the average person, like the average consumer, didn't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: any desire or need for a computer, or at least

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Speaker 1: they didn't think they did. And uh, and so it

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Speaker 1: was it was definitely not a sure thing when they

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Speaker 1: were first getting started. But nineteen seventy seven, Apple two

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Speaker 1: comes out, and I think, uh, I think you could

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Speaker 1: describe its success as being meteoric. Oh yeah, yeah, Well, Um.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons that Wozniak says that he

359
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Speaker 1: worked so hard on the basic HUM structure for the

360
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Speaker 1: two microprocessor was was simply that he realized that basic

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Speaker 1: was going to be a big help to people who

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Speaker 1: were going to adopt these and he wanted people to

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Speaker 1: understand that computers could play a significant role in their

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Speaker 1: personal lives. And so he said, you know this is

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Speaker 1: you know, I basically hunkered down to do this because

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Speaker 1: I knew this was going to be important. And that's

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Speaker 1: that's something that you see when you look at that

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Speaker 1: Steve Wozniak's career is that he obviously he's willing to

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Speaker 1: put his his back into it and really work on

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Speaker 1: something that he is very passionate about like this, Um

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Speaker 1: the very other you know, there are other things too.

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Speaker 1: He talks about having to write the disc operating software

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Speaker 1: for the the earlier machines, and he didn't this was

374
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Speaker 1: not something that he was familiar with. Yeah, he had

375
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Speaker 1: never really used magnetic storage like that, but he made

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Speaker 1: it work because he knew it was important. Um. Not

377
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Speaker 1: that not downe to discount other people all over the

378
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Speaker 1: world who do this every day. But I'm saying you know,

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Speaker 1: as we're looking at Steve Wozniak, this is uh technology

380
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Speaker 1: is is clearly part of his DNA, and it's it

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Speaker 1: he he needs to to make it work. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I read about him too in the

383
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Speaker 1: Isaacs and um biography of Jobs was that uh um,

384
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Speaker 1: apparently he was just really good at finding innovative solutions

385
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Speaker 1: to the challenges that that came up while they were

386
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Speaker 1: creating the actual machines. His engineering expertise, it's more than

387
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Speaker 1: just It's sort of like a virtuoso and a musical instrument.

388
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Speaker 1: You have people who can play the instrument, but there

389
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Speaker 1: are very few people that can that can pick it

390
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Speaker 1: up and do something really brilliant with it that you

391
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Speaker 1: wouldn't expect to do because they don't teach that. It's

392
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Speaker 1: just the thing that you sort of innately have. Yeah,

393
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Speaker 1: and apparently he is. He just got that um ability

394
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Speaker 1: to to look at a technology and know how it

395
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Speaker 1: works and go, well, you know what, I know, this

396
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Speaker 1: isn't work in this way just for kicks, Let's plug

397
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Speaker 1: this in this way and see if that works. Yeah.

398
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Speaker 1: He he had a real interesting attitude too. He said that,

399
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, in general, in a broad stroke. He said,

400
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Speaker 1: if he could build a machine that had two hundred

401
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: chips in it, he would then look at that design

402
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: and say, how can I build a machine that does

403
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: the exact same thing this thing does, but with a

404
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: hundred fifty chips? And he would do it. And then

405
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: after that he'd say, okay, well, how can I build

406
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Speaker 1: a machine that does all the things this machine does,

407
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,959
Speaker 1: but only with a hundred chips and just continuously refine

408
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: that design so that it was more and more elegant

409
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: and more efficient in each iteration. That was sort of

410
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: his thought process, which is, you know, that's a good thing. Well,

411
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Speaker 1: it's funny you should mention that because there there is

412
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Speaker 1: another story that jobs in Wosniak were working to get

413
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: there at Atari to develop a game machine. Now I

414
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: don't think Wosniak was that, if my memory serves, It's

415
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: been a few days since I've read that, Uh if

416
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Speaker 1: Memory Serves Wasnac wasn't actually working for Atari. Um Jobs

417
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: actually kind of convinced him to work on this project,

418
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: but they they were supposed to. They were trying to

419
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Speaker 1: create this machine and the challenge was it's like, hey,

420
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Speaker 1: you know, if you can do this with uh fewer

421
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: chips in this time period, we'll go ahead and go

422
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: with this idea. So Jobs knew that Wosniak had the

423
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Speaker 1: the expertise to make it work, and he did that.

424
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Speaker 1: The point of doing this was to save money because

425
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: these chips were not cheap UM, so the fewer components

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: that you could use on the circuit board, the more

427
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: money you could save. And doing that and make the

428
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: project more cost efficient in the end, and uh, thanks

429
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 1: to was they actually made it work. Of course. Uh,

430
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: they're known for Breakout The two of them both worked

431
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: on Breakout UM, which is a classic Autari game. UM.

432
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean that that paid off both on

433
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: that project and their work they did for Apple because

434
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: they would continually revise the design to make it, to

435
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: make it more cost efficient and make it more effective.

436
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: Because what was is one of those people that believes

437
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: that UM technology should be accessible to people. Um. I

438
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: was gonna say, well, you might say, well, hey, Apple

439
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: is known for having high priced computers. What are you

440
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: talking to? High price computers and closed systems. Yes, two

441
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: things that you would imagine would be antithetical to that philosophy.

442
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,959
Speaker 1: Well that's true, and uh, but I would argue that, Um,

443
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,239
Speaker 1: we need to take a look at the exit of

444
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: Wozniak from Apple because, um, a lot of that did

445
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: not surround the Apple to the Apple two was a

446
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: very affordable machine, which is why it ended up in

447
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people's homes, in a lot of schools. Yeah,

448
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: So in order to get there, we need to we

449
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: need to to get back to like about nineteen eighties

450
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: when Apple went public, and that was of course a

451
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: big event. Chris and I will have more to say

452
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: about the laws in just a moment, but first let's

453
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: take a quick break. One was a huge year for

454
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: Wazniak in both triumph and tragedy. Uhe he returned to

455
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: UC Berkeley to finish out his degree in electrical engineering

456
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: and computer science under an assumed name. I would also

457
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: guess that he probably cruised through a lot of that. Probably, Yeah,

458
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: the fact that the fact that there may have been

459
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 1: courses that were referring to his own work might have

460
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: might have done that. But also that year, he um,

461
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: he was the act a man who has a lot

462
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: of different interests in one of those was piloting airplanes,

463
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: and he owned his own private airplane. At this point,

464
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: because Apple very quickly was a huge success. You know,

465
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: I launched in nineteen seventy six, and by one he

466
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: had enough to have his own private plane. And he

467
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: was piloting his private plane and crashed while trying to

468
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: take off at the Santa Cruz SkyPark And it was

469
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: pretty serious crash and he was very badly hurt in that.

470
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: In that accident, I suffered from amnesia for quite some time. Yeah, yeah,

471
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: I had a lot of different injuries, memory loss. It

472
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: took about two years of rehabilitation for him to get

473
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: back to how he was before the accident. But around

474
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: that time, the Apple two was really starting to become

475
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: a true success story, like a huge success story in

476
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: personal computing. And uh and by three, so this is

477
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: just a couple of years after Apple has gone public.

478
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: Three years after Apple's gone public, it was valued the

479
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: company was valued at nine hundred and eighty five million

480
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: dollars if you looked at its stock, if you were

481
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: to value the company by how much stock was out

482
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,959
Speaker 1: there and the price that stock was trading at, so

483
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: just under a billion dollars. And again the company is

484
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: not even ten years old yet. So you know, Wazniak's

485
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: work was really starting to pay off for the company

486
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: and for Wozniak at the time. Yep. He also uh

487
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: in addition to this, while he was going through his

488
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: recovery period, got involved in another one of his passions,

489
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: which is music. Hosted the now infamous US festivals in California,

490
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: UM which were both were which were known for being huge,

491
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean very very large events. Think of um things

492
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: like um Um, you know Lollapalooza now or Lilith Fair.

493
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean kinds of events like that where they're I know,

494
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: I am, but but I don't go to large outdoor

495
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: events like that or the festive Well. Yeah, but they

496
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: did have a diverse line of different kinds of Yes,

497
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: actually they were. They were sort of incompetent Asian into

498
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: some degree because Coachella had then had been out for

499
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: many years, more than a decade out in California. UM,

500
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: but they it was sort of a blend of technology

501
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: and music, which makes me think more of south By

502
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: Southwest now than than that. But at that time that's

503
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: not the kind of events that we're going on. There

504
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: were more I think inspired from the many years earlier

505
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: Woodstock and events like that, where it was just the

506
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: large outdoor music festivals, but they were also known for extravagance. Um.

507
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: You know, there were some artists like uh van Halen

508
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: and David Bowie who were taking home more than a

509
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: million dollars in early eighty two and eighty three, the

510
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: early eighties, I mean, um and, which were tremendous sums

511
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: of money at that point. Um and and it's I

512
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: think regarded by a lot of people now the US

513
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: festivals sort of a a sort of a punch line

514
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: to a joke, although I'm not sure what the setup

515
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: would be uh um, but I don't know that it

516
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: was completely unsuccessful. I just think that, uh, it was

517
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: sort of a tribute to was his generosity and the

518
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: fact that he paid people really uh, you know, generous

519
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: sums of money. But I think he was just having

520
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: a good time with a lot of people. Yeah. He

521
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: also took this time to start getting into philanthropy. He

522
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: began to really invest, specifically in the education system near

523
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: his own home. He began to uh to help UH

524
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: schools get computers and training on how to use the computers.

525
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: He was very enthusiastic at fostering education, which is no

526
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: surprise considering, you know, his father had helped him, and

527
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: he does credit his you know, several teachers went in

528
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: his elementary school days as really being the inspiration for

529
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: him to pursue his interests. So it's not a big

530
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: surprise that he wanted to to kind of pay it

531
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: forward and and do that on himself. So he began

532
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: to do that and Uh. In fact, his his contributions

533
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: to technology and philanthropy led up to him receiving the award,

534
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: the the National Medal of Technology in He was awarded

535
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: that by the United States President, who at the time

536
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: was Ronald Reagan and received that and it's the highest

537
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: honor bestowed on America's inventors and innovators. Yes, the award

538
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: has come up several times over the course of tech stuff. UM.

539
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: You know, probably was it one of the people we

540
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: would actually have heard of. Um they were losing. Jobs

541
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: were sort of rock stars in the early eighties because

542
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: of the the the prominence of the Apple two. UM.

543
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: And you know, there were there were cover stories on magazines,

544
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: business magazines, UH and UH and news magazines about these guys.

545
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: They were they were sort of well known. Of course,

546
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: Jobs is a little bit more outspoken. He's known as

547
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: the UM you know, more of the the marketing face

548
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: of the company, especially UM recently, but even back then

549
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: in the in the early days of the company. UM

550
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: as technology went on at Apple, though, as things started

551
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 1: to change and they started focusing on, uh, diversifying the

552
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: lines UM was, you know, was sort of not as

553
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: integral to the the creation of machines like the Apple three,

554
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: the Lisa, and the Macintosh like he had been with

555
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: the Apple too. And I think that was partially due

556
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: of course, to the to the accident and the need

557
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: for his recovery. Just he just wasn't as um as

558
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: UM available during that time as he would have done otherwise. Yeah,

559
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: and then UM and by Ve big changes were happening

560
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: at Apple. Uh. The biggest was that Steve Jobs left

561
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,239
Speaker 1: the company and that depending on how you define it,

562
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: he was either fired because he was having some really

563
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: nasty conflicts with the with Apple's board of directors, or

564
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: he was just marginalized to the point where he just

565
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: stopped showing up to work. UM. But really, I mean

566
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: essentially they kept giving him a d a smaller role

567
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: over time and distancing him Steve Jobs, that is, away

568
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: from the main operations of Apple, and so Steve Jobs

569
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: left in five Niac stuck around with Apple for a

570
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: couple more years. He would not leave the company until Yes,

571
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: and to some degree he still holds a consulting role

572
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: with the company today. His and he left the company,

573
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: but Apple still I guess it's safe to say they

574
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: never completely severed their relationship, although he doesn't go into

575
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: work there like he used to. Um. And he's and

576
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily call him an Apple evangelist either. I

577
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: mean he says in frequent interviews he will say or

578
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: frequently interviews I should say, he will say he loves Apple.

579
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: But at the same time, he is not shy to

580
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: criticize Apple for things that he views as as uh

581
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: as a as as failures or as mistakes. He is

582
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: very He's known for being very honest and very upfront

583
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: and just uh, you know, giving his opinion. He's a

584
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: straight shooter when it comes to that, and not in

585
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: necessarily a mean way, but very matter of fact. Um yeah,

586
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: actually uh. When he started to work on some other

587
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: projects that one of the first was cl nine. This

588
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: is a company that was known for creating the first

589
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: programmable universal remote YEP. And so this again shows that

590
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: wozniak interest in electronics was still very, very high. He

591
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: just I think wosnia X one of those guys who

592
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: really likes to find a new challenge, and you know,

593
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: once he's done that, once he's managed to to accomplish

594
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: whatever that challenges, then he ready to move on to

595
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: the next one. In fact, again from listening to him talk,

596
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: I would say that that's just one of those things

597
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: he really values, is the idea of innovation, research and development,

598
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: building new stuff and not just making constant improvements over

599
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: older technology. In fact, that might have been one of

600
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: the reasons why he left Apple, was that he was

601
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: starting to see Apple turned into this company that was

602
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:33,439
Speaker 1: more interested in releasing incremental updates to its technology rather

603
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: than truly innovating and building something that's really cool. And

604
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: in fact, that's a that's a criticism that he has

605
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: leveled recently at Apple over the last few years, saying

606
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: that Apple seems to be content to release new versions

607
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: of truly innovative and amazing products. You know, he loves

608
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: things like the iPad and the iPhone and all that.

609
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: He thinks those are great, But why he doesn't think

610
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: is great is that Apple seems to be content to

611
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: just give updates to those products rather than try and

612
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: create something wholly new. Now that may not be completely fair.

613
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: There may be some things developing an Apple about which

614
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: we know nothing that could blow our minds any day now,

615
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 1: like the Apple TV that we keep on hoping will

616
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: come out. But you know that that the perception that

617
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: Wozniak has is that, uh, Apple's not currently really in

618
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: that innovative space. In fact, recently he said that Microsoft

619
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: was showing more of that sort of innovative approach. Doesn't

620
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: necessarily mean it's going to be a success for Microsoft,

621
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: but he was saying that you know, Windows eight, Windows Phone, Ate,

622
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: the surface tablet, all of that was kind of pointing

623
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: there was such a radical departure from the stuff that

624
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: Microsoft had been doing that it was a much more

625
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: innovative approach than what Apple was currently doing. Right well, um,

626
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: you know he uh he ended up butting heads with

627
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: c L nine with Apple. Um. He was trying to

628
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: contract the design firm Frog Design, uh to get the

629
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: product designed for him, and Apple had brought Frog Design

630
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: to California with the idea that they were going to

631
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: be their designers, their product designers, and Apple said no,

632
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 1: you cannot do that. That was part of their their

633
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: U their UM contract with them. UM. But yeah, he

634
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: very much, uh you know, had an idea because he

635
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: knew that these guys were innovators in the way things

636
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: looked and felt. UM. So it doesn't surprise me much

637
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: that that was likes um the kinds of products that

638
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: Apple comes out with. But uh, you know, they had

639
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: a similar design sense. But Apple did not appreciate that

640
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: at the time. UM. Oh and uh, we didn't mention,

641
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: but well, it's probably looking at the timeline here, UM

642
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: probably should mention some of the other things that he

643
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: got into over the years. Of course, he's been a

644
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: speaker UM for many, many years now, including dating back

645
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: to that that time he was sort of a coveted

646
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: personality for m keynotes and different kinds of addresses. Uh

647
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: and uh. He started several companies. See all nine was

648
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: just one of them. Wheels of Zeus was one of

649
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: my favorites. Yes, the acronym Wheels of Zeus is laws

650
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: in in two thousand one, and that was back uh

651
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: in the early days of trying to come up with

652
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: uses for GPS. Yeah. The idea being that if you

653
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: can have a wireless GPS UH network, then you would

654
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: be able to locate stuff. Really, that was one of

655
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: his ideas. He said he wanted to help people be

656
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: able to locate things. Yes, all right, that was you

657
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: know so, yeah, and was or as in Wheels of Zeus,

658
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: not Wazniac, but Wheels of Zeus lasted for about five

659
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: years that it closed up in two thousand six. Ye

660
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: also and uh he in uh going back a bit. No, No,

661
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: it's fine. I just wanted to mention, you know, being

662
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: a co founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I mean

663
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: this is huge. The Electronic Frontier Foundation or e f F,

664
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: is an organization that advocates for openness and freedom on

665
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: the internet in the computer world. They are also known

666
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: for doing things like helping provide legal assistance to hackers

667
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: that are being pursued by by government officials or or

668
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, by law enforcement. They're known for helping out

669
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: folks who might otherwise be seen as troublemakers. Um, but

670
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: it's really all about promoting the freedom of information and

671
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: the trying to keep as as much of the uh

672
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: the manipulation or or or um, the just just trying

673
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: to keep the government out of controlling technology in all

674
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: its forms. Mainly it tends over the last several year,

675
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: it tends to mostly be about the Internet, but it's

676
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: it goes beyond that. Yeah. Yeah, and then they are

677
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: very interested in uh, you know, privacy issues issues. Uh,

678
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: not to uh, not to protect what you might call

679
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: black hat hackers, um, but more to give people the

680
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: opportunity to uh control their technology lives a little bit

681
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: more openly and and do more with it rather than

682
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: having that spoken for for them. Yeah. Wozniak has has

683
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: really come across as someone who who wants the individual

684
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: to have as much control and say in that sort

685
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: of thing, and less of that should go to things

686
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: like corporations and governments. So uh, you know this, it's

687
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: obvious why he would want to co found that organization

688
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: like BFF. And in two thousand he was inducted into

689
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: the Inventor's Hall of Fame and also receive the Hinz

690
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,959
Speaker 1: Award for Technology, the Economy and employe. Yes, I wanted

691
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: to mention the Hines Award, So I'm glad you did that.

692
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: And it's not the Hines Stefenschmertz Award. Curse you bury

693
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: the Platypaus We've got a little bit further to go

694
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: with Chris Polette's final episode as a co host of

695
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: Tech Stuff. But before we get to that sad moment,

696
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: let's take another quick break. This is a period, um

697
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,479
Speaker 1: the early two thousand's where we kind of didn't hear

698
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: a lot from him. I mean, he's not the kind

699
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: of person that that, um, you read about in the

700
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: society pages so much. Although until the late two thousands, well,

701
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, making appearances on shows like Kathy Griffin in

702
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: My Life on the d List. Yeah, he was dating

703
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: her at the time. Yes, yes, Um. He's also been

704
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: on The Big Bang Theory and of course Dancing with

705
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: the Stars cutting a rug on a segue, yes, yes

706
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: he uh he showed. I watched some of that, and

707
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: I have to admit he showed a tremendous sense of

708
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: humor about being on that show. Um. And uh he's

709
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: as a dancer, he is a really incredible programmer. Nice.

710
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: Um an excellent compliment and uh, I am neither. So

711
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: I really can't talk, but I will. I will say

712
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: that that, but I think he would probably agree. Um

713
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: yeah he um, uh, yeah, he seemed to really kind

714
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: of have fun with his own you know, public persona,

715
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: although he's not you know, he's not like a celebrity

716
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: in the sense of jumping out and trying to attract attention.

717
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: That doesn't seem to really be his his style. He's

718
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: even been known, like on on launch days for Apple

719
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 1: products to go and wait in line at an Apple store.

720
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: There was one story where, uh he I remember it

721
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: was one of the early iPhones, I want to say,

722
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: where he was walking to the Apple store to go

723
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: get in line, and then he got ushered into the

724
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: front of the line, and he actually felt badly about

725
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: it because he was like, you know, he didn't feel

726
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: that he should necessarily be treated any differently than any

727
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: other customer. Um. And but a lot of people who

728
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: were in line are like, dude, that's woznia. He could

729
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: totally go in It's okay, Yeah I would. I would

730
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: imagine that that he has enough of a following where

731
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: you know, there there would be a certain amount of

732
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: tolerance among the other shoppers that day. Um. He's also known,

733
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 1: of course, over over time to be a rather uh

734
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: playful prankster of sorts. He's famed, of course for many

735
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: different stunts with two dollar bills. Um. I have actually

736
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: tried to pass two dollar bills, which are completely legal,

737
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: and they have people confused by them because you don't

738
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: see them all the time, which of course lends itself

739
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: to was a sort of sense of humor. Now you

740
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: can buy, as he will point out, complete sheets of

741
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: one dollar, two dollar, and five dollar bills from the

742
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: Bureau of Engraving and Printing. You can get a sheet

743
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: of an uncut sheet of bills. They're completely legal, they

744
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: just haven't been cut apart. In fact, they're perforated. So

745
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: he has been known to buy sheets of these, you know,

746
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: separate them and have them laminated into a pad, and

747
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: go in and buy stuff and peel off a series

748
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: of two dollar bills, which are of course are numbered sequentially.

749
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: It's very weird. Two dollar bills are weird to begin with,

750
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: and then you add that it looks like this guy

751
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: just peeled off money and handed it to me, am

752
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: I supposed to take it. Apparently he's been to Vegas

753
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: and tried to stunt and had security people come and

754
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 1: uh talked to him about exactly what's going I've encountered

755
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: Vegas security. I know exactly what you're talking about. And

756
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: of course if it were me, I would be sweating

757
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: like about it. He keeps doing. Really, I didn't know

758
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: that that the government doesn't, you know, make these perforated

759
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: bills available. Really, I bought these from some guy. What

760
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: what's great is that I wouldn't have had the nerve.

761
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: I should also point out that while two dollar bills

762
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: are unusual here in the United States, in other places

763
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: there are two dollar coins. So for our friends in Canadia, yes,

764
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: and our friends in Canadia, your twnis are very adorable,

765
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: like I actually do like tunis. I like Looney's and tunis. Yes,

766
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: I agree. If you would like to send me Looney's

767
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: and twnis, do so at the house Stuff Works address,

768
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 1: Carroll Jonathan Strickland. Kids, go check your parents. No, never mind,

769
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: um but uh but but yeah, what you were talking

770
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: about about innovation and openness and technology. He has recently,

771
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: as of the time we're recording this, in late Ben

772
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: photographed in front of the large uh different versions of

773
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: Google androids. We have Android people, and people go, it's

774
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 1: the Apple co founder in front of the Android androids. Well, yeah,

775
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: because he tries pretty much everything. Yeah, he's just a

776
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: computer omnivore. He actually says that he will, you know,

777
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: he loves he loves technology, and he loves Gadgy doesn't

778
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily love what corporations are doing or what governments

779
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: are doing, but he loves the technology. And he specifically,

780
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: I had an hour and a half of sleep last night, folks,

781
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: I would and watch the Hobbit anyway. So he specifically

782
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 1: really likes uh platforms that are are that allow you

783
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 1: to do lots of stuff right, So the Android platform

784
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: gives a lot of flexibility to users. It's something that

785
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: can be overwhelming to someone who's not necessarily an enthusiast,

786
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: but for someone who really likes hacking and getting their

787
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: their hands dirty with technology, the Android platform is very

788
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: attractive because it's you can make a lot of changes yourself,

789
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: you know, and and Google facilitates that. Depending on which

790
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 1: handset manufacturer and which carrier you're with, it may or

791
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: may not be very easy to do. But he also

792
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: says he likes to try everything because he doesn't want

793
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: to form a a prejudice against any particular platform without

794
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: giving it a real fair shot. And so he goes

795
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: out when a new phone comes out, he'll go out

796
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 1: and buy it. So often like, I've seen pictures of

797
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: what Wozniak was carrying on a given day, and it's

798
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: usually something like five or six smartphones and then maybe

799
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: a tablet and then maybe two computers. It's like, you figure,

800
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: it's got to be around fifty pounds of technology at least. Yeah.

801
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: It It kind of reminds me of the nineties version

802
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: of Dilbert where he used to have the gadget utility belt. Um,

803
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: you actually knew some people like that? Um yeah, yeah,

804
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: I used to try and do that them. My pants

805
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: kept falling down, dude, looking like a fool with the

806
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: pants on the ground. I was, in fact. Yeah. So

807
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: currently he's working at a food Fusion Io or Fusion

808
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: EO Fusion HEO was Fusion dash Io as a chief

809
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: scientist and that's the company is a data storage and

810
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: server company. So he's he's currently that's you know, his

811
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: technical job title at the moment. But he does do

812
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: a lot of speaking events and you know, you'll still

813
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: see him at things like a TED conferences and other

814
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: big events where you know, they need to have someone

815
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 1: there who who really knows the ins and outs of technology,

816
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: who is truly an advocate for technology, for the consumer

817
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: and who just you know, he's just very passionate and

818
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: loves to share that with other people. That's it's a

819
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: great couple of qualities to have, Like, there are a

820
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: lot of people who are really passionate about what they do,

821
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily communicate that or share that with people.

822
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,959
Speaker 1: But wasn't he acts he's like, you know, you would

823
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: have to tie him down for him not to to

824
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: to be a brilliant over his love of tech. Yeah,

825
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: it's uh, from from just about all accounts I've read

826
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: about about Steve Wozniak, He's he's not the kind of

827
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: person who who hides his emotions very well. He's, uh,

828
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: he's excited about a lot of stuff, and when he is,

829
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: he you know, he shares that with you. Um, I

830
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: should say that he doesn't hide his his excitement for

831
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: technology very well because he's, uh, he's really gregarious when

832
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: it comes to that. He may not be necessarily outspoken

833
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: about his personal life as much or or want to

834
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: jump into the spotlight. But if you ran into him

835
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: and he had fifteen minutes to talk about some kind

836
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: of technology with you, I don't think it would be

837
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: much of a stretch. Based on Again, I've never met him,

838
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: but uh, if he wanted to stry a cup of

839
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: conversation with him about virtually any kind of technology, I

840
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: don't think he would turn you down, or if he did,

841
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: he would do it politely. Well, it seems like just

842
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 1: a just a great guy. He does he does. I

843
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: would be very interested to talk with him, except I

844
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: would be intimidated that he had discovered that I'm a

845
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 1: complete idiot within like two minutes of chatting with me. Well,

846
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:20,879
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't take the rest of us that long.

847
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: You know. Maybe I'm hoping that he would just have

848
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: a lot of optimism. And that wraps up this classic

849
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: episode of text Stuff once again. I want to thank

850
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: Chris Polette for the amazing work he did. I mean,

851
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, we're six years past, almost seven years past

852
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: when this happened, and uh, he's still very much a

853
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 1: part of tech Stuff's culture. The puns, I would argue,

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Speaker 1: are Chris Polette's contribution to this show. I love puns,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't really known for making them in the

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Speaker 1: show quite like Chris was. I hope you guys enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: If you have any suggestions for future episodes, of tech Stuff.

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00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: Please reach out and let me know The email addresses

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00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: tech stuff at how stuff works dot com, where you

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00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: can drop a line on Facebook or Twitter. The handle

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00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: of both of those is tech Stuff hs W. Go

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00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: to our website that's tech stuff podcast dot com. You

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00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: will find a link to the archive of every episode

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00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: we've ever published. You will also find a link to

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Speaker 1: our online store, where every purchase you make goes to

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00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: out the show and we greatly appreciate it, and I'll

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Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon. Text Stuff is a

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00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

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00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.