1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 3: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 3: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 4: Starting his own artificial intelligence company. 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate, super genius, legitimate, he says. He's 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 3: always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different. 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 4: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 4: on him. 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: Anything he does, he's fascinating people. 13 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: Welcome to Elanank, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musket's Tuesday, 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: December third. I'm your host, David Papatapolis. Now, Elon Musk 15 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 3: loves himself a good lawsuit. He's always suing someone or 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: getting sued by someone, and these cases are constantly percolating 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 3: in the background, but this week they take center stage. 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 3: Late yesterday, News broke to the Delaware court yet again 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 3: has struck down his ginormous Tesla pay package. Meanwhile, JP 20 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 3: Morgan decided the best to walk away from a separate 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 3: suit it had brought against Musk, who in turn decided 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: it was time to re up an old suit he 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 3: had filed against rival Sam Altman and his company Open Ai. 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,199 Speaker 5: All is fair in love and war and law, fair, 25 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 5: as Elon likes to call it. 26 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 3: After that, we're going to get into the way politics 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: is reshaping the Musk customer base something of a fascination 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: of ours here at Elon Inc. To talk about all this. 29 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: I am joined in the studio by our old pal 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 3: Sarah Friar. Hey, Sarah, Hey, you picked a hell of 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 3: a week to come to New York. It is cold here, Sarah, 32 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 3: love it okay. 33 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 5: Very good. 34 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: We also have our regulars Max Chafkin and Dana Hall. Hey, Max, Hey, David, 35 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: Dana Hello, Hello, Hello. And on the bat phone, we 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 3: have a special update coming from Bloomberg's man in Delaware, 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: our courts reporter Jeff Feely. 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 5: Jeff, Hello, sir, Good morning. All So, Jeff, we're gonna. 39 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: Start with you and this ruling that came last night 40 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: on the Musk pay package. Tell us what exactly did 41 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: the judge there, Chancellor Kathlyn McCormick rule last night. 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: She's judge Kate. He just judged Kate down here. She 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: ruled for the second time that must pay was the 44 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: result of a tainted process and that it should not 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: be reinstated, even though there was a second shareholder vote 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly ratifying the idea that he deserved the largest compensation 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: award in US corporate history. And she also awarded the 48 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: legal fees of three hundred and forty five million dollars 49 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: to the lawyers who represented the loan Tesla shareholder who 50 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: took issue with this. With this pay package, they had 51 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: been asking for stock in the neighborhood of five billion dollars. 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: They pointed to the fifty five billion dollar pay package 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: as the load star that they were comparing themselves to 54 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: and hoping to be awarded upon. But the judge, following 55 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: the guidance of the Delaware Supreme Court, found that that 56 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: would be an unfair windfall and cut back their feet 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: only to three hundred and forty five million dollars. 58 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 5: Woo, Who poor them. 59 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: I doubt Greg Vala, who's the lead lawyer, was crying 60 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: in his beer last night. 61 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: I would think that the number on that pay package 62 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 3: bounces all around. As we last understood it, what was 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: the approximate number two? 64 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: What did we I think we in the story said 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: that it had definitely bounced beyond fifty five you know, 66 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: again because Tesla's stock, you know, it's so volatile, it 67 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: just goes all over the place. 68 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: I thought it had gotten max to like around one 69 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 3: hundred billion or so, giving some work, Well. 70 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: The numbers we used in the story were that when 71 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 2: the stock option grant was made, they were worth two 72 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: point six billion, and by the time the trial went 73 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 2: on they were up to fifty six billion. 74 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 4: So as of Monday one hunt, according to the Bloomberg story, 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 4: one hundred and one point five billion. Oh yeah, which 76 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 4: is obviously that the stock price of Tesla has gone 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: way up over the last month or so. 78 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, there we are, now, Jeff, hadn't there been a 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 3: sense that the new shareholder vote, done with greater transparency 80 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 3: and so on and so forth, had addressed fully or 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 3: at least some of Judge Katie's concerns. Apparently not, But 82 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 3: I but I thought there was that sense out there 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 3: that had been the case. 84 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, look, the reality is this was a 85 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: novel question of law in terms of could you basically 86 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: use a second shareholder vote to and affect correct problems 87 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: with the pay process and the problems that Judge Katie 88 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: had identified the first time around, just rampant conflicts of 89 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: interest had not really been addressed. I mean, you know, 90 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: there were some cosmetic changes, but the process itself was tainted. 91 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: And Jeff on that the rampant conflicts of interest. Basically, 92 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: this board is just too much in bed with Elon Musk. 93 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: That's the idea, and that is exactly right. 94 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: I'd just like to know. 95 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 6: I mean, Tesla's own proxy made it very clear to 96 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 6: shareholders that there was no certainty that this revote was 97 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 6: going to change the outcome of the case. I mean 98 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 6: they said it plain as day. A special noted that 99 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 6: even a favorable ratification vote by stockholders may not fully 100 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 6: resolve this matter. We cannot predict with certainty how a 101 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 6: revote will where I will vote to ratify the performance 102 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 6: award would be treated under Delaware law under these novel circumstances. 103 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 6: So these risk factors were all laid out in the proxy. 104 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 6: I think what happened was that Musk kind of did 105 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 6: this like marketing campaign to all of the retail shareholders 106 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 6: and got them whipped up into this frenzy so that 107 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 6: they think that this is like a direct democracy that 108 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 6: they voted to ratify it again. And therefore it would 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 6: sail through. And they're completely ignoring the precedent of Delaware 110 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 6: law and the process in Delaware. And that's why you're 111 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 6: seeing so many people upset today. And you know, like 112 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 6: Tesla's obviously going to appeal, but Tesla's ow proxy made 113 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 6: it very clear that they were taking a novel approach 114 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 6: to trying to resolve. 115 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 3: So, Jeff, when Tesla appeals, how does that appeal process work? 116 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: They've already filed their notice of appeal. 117 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: They did, and so they filed that to whom and 118 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: how exactly does that work? And what would the timeline 119 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: that look like? 120 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: All right, So, the Delaware Supreme Court is where this 121 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: case goes, and unlike the US Supreme Court, they don't 122 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: choose their cases any lower court ruling. They have to 123 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 2: hear the appeal of So it's headed to the five 124 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: members of that court, and it's going to take the 125 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: better part of a year for all the processing to 126 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: get done. 127 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 4: Hey, Jeff, can I ask a dumb question. Isn't Tesla 128 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 4: based in Texas? 129 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 5: Now? 130 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: It is? 131 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 5: So, at what point. 132 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 4: Does that have an effect on what the company tries 133 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 4: to do with Elon Musk's pay Okay? 134 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: Well, so, because they were a Delaware company when this 135 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: package in two eighteen was negotiated, they're still covered by 136 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: Delaware law for this case. If they decide, you know, 137 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: if they lose on appeal, the likelihood is they're going 138 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: to run to the new Business Court in Texas and 139 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: you know, basically create a whole new package in Texas, 140 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: and it's probably going to be the same package that 141 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: they proposed here at Delaware, and the likelihood is it'll 142 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: sail through like you know, bacon or in Greece decision. 143 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 5: I don't know that bacon and grease sales. But anyway, Sara, 144 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 5: you were. 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 7: Does that mean that Musk's plan to just move all 146 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 7: of his lawsuits to Texas, like anything that we ever 147 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 7: do to challenge Musk in the court of law will 148 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 7: be heard there. 149 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: That's going to work. 150 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: Well, there is a provision in the law where corporations 151 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: can decide where their litigation is going to be. They're 152 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: called you know, basically forum clauses, and yes, those are 153 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: considered legal. If Elon and the Tesla board decide that 154 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: all litigation against Tesla will be heard in Texas, there's 155 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 2: really not much that shareholders can do about it. 156 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 3: So then why take the step of appealing to the 157 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: to the top court in Delaware if in the end 158 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 3: you just know you're going to go to Texas. 159 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you it's pretty easy. I mean, 160 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: we just mentioned that the guy is worth more than 161 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: one hundred billion dollars, so picking up the tab for 162 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: another appeal in Delaware it'n't exactly going to leave him 163 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 2: eating dog food out of cans. So I think he's appealing, 164 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: you know, basically because he can. 165 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 4: I mean, it's an interesting test of the like Elon 166 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 4: Musk ability to just sort of force things make, you know, 167 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 4: try to try to essentially avoid the law or ignore 168 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 4: the law, you know, go on Twitter and say this 169 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 4: is this is bs, I'm not going to do it, 170 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 4: and then the ability of like courts to assert their authority. 171 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 4: I mean, over the last month, we've seen all of 172 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: these kind of very optimistic projections by like Tesla shareholders 173 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 4: that somehow Trump is going to drastically shift, you know, 174 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 4: basically the dollars and cents of this company. And I 175 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 4: feel like this this case, although it's not going to 176 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: change that much, it just shows that like you cannot 177 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 4: you know, reality and the reality of the justice system 178 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 4: will assert itself. 179 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 7: Well, I mean, remember this is the judge that forced 180 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 7: Musk to buy Twitter. That history has sort of been 181 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 7: revised now into something Musk always wanted to do, to say, 182 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 7: free speech. But as we remember while on this podcast, 183 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 7: it was really Judge Katie. 184 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, for a guy who's been winning and winning and 185 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 3: winning of late. And you know he, as we've said 186 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: perhaps in the past, when he tangles with Judge Katie, 187 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: he loses. 188 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: As my friend Dana Hall has very evocatively said, you know, 189 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: he's he was teflon Elon. Nothing stuck to him. He 190 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: slid like bacon on greef. 191 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 5: You're making me hungry here, Pheely. 192 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: I know, I know. Anyway, he's got some dents in 193 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: his armor here, and she's pretty much the only one 194 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: who was held his feet to the legal fire. 195 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 5: You got to give her some credit, absolutely, mister Peeley. 196 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 5: We will let you go, sir. 197 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: We'll have you back on soon when there's a new 198 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 3: twist and turn in the case. 199 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: Listen, everybody have a wonderful day, Dana. 200 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: So let's zoom the lens back out for a second. 201 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 3: In general, on lawfair as a whole, Elon loves to 202 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: talk about the term. What exactly is the definition of 203 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: lawfair as we understand it, what's kind of. 204 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 6: This combination of law and warfare? And I think the 205 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 6: coinage comes from two thousand and one, after the September 206 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 6: eleventh attacks, when the idea is that you could sort 207 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 6: of weaponize the law to go after your adversaries. 208 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: And Musk loves this term. 209 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 6: He has often said that Donald Trump is a victim 210 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 6: of lawfair, that he himself is a victim of law fair. 211 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 6: If you do a search of his posts on X, 212 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 6: it's like lawfair, lawfair, law fair. When when he hosted 213 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 6: Trump on in August, he kept kind of trying to 214 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 6: steer the conversation to like, hey, like, we're both victims 215 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 6: of lawfair. So it's just something that he is constantly 216 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 6: harping on. But the big irony is that he himself 217 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 6: is so litigious. I mean, he is right now trying 218 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 6: to sue Sam Altman into oblivion, and he is often 219 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 6: the plaintiff in a lot of cases. And so I 220 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 6: just think it's fascinating to look at how Musk himself 221 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 6: has kind of weaponized the law. He has so much money, 222 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 6: he can hire the best law firms, he can go 223 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 6: for broke and oftentimes that's how law works, right, Like, 224 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 6: the richest people have the resources to litigate beyond their adversaries. 225 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 6: And you're seeing that play out over and over and 226 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 6: over again, and so I just think there's sort of 227 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 6: a wider frame here, Like right now Musk is saying 228 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 6: that he is a victim of the lawfair against him 229 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 6: in Delaware Chancery Corps, and he's clearly whipping all of 230 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 6: his fans and retail shareholders into agreeing with him. At 231 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 6: the same time, look at what he's doing, suing not 232 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 6: just open ai, but now Microsoft to over open aies 233 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 6: you know, nonprofit versus for profit status plans, and and 234 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 6: how how many times Musk has been in lawsuits. 235 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so Max tell us a little bit about that 236 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 3: freshly opened Musk suit against open Ai. 237 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 4: Well, he filed the suit, then he dropped it, then 238 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 4: he refiled. And the latest twist is an injunction asking 239 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 4: the court to stop open AI's plan to change its 240 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 4: status from a non for profit or this very complicated 241 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 4: legal status that had had where there was a non 242 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 4: for profit that owned the for profit to a more 243 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 4: conventional for profit, which it's trying to do because it's 244 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 4: trying to raise, you know, buckets of money, and Elon 245 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 4: Musk's suit is basically asked in the court to stop that, 246 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 4: and it's and the arguments it's megan, they're kind of interesting. 247 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 4: There's a few different ones, but couple of which are 248 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 4: basically anti trust claims. I trust, yeah, yeah, based on 249 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 4: a couple of factors. One is interlocking directors. To me, 250 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 4: the most interesting one is this idea of the interlocking directors, 251 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 4: which would be a violation of federal antitrust law. 252 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 5: You have Sam help me out there for. 253 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: AI. 254 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 4: So this is this is a thing that has come 255 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 4: up in discussions around Microsoft and anti trust and open 256 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 4: Ai and anti trust and various FTC things. 257 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 5: But basically, like there are. 258 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 4: Legal issues with a director serving on the board of 259 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 4: companies that are doing business together, which is a case 260 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 4: for open ai where you had Reid Hoffmann simultaneously serving 261 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 4: on the board of open Ai and Microsoft. He's now anyway, 262 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 4: and so a bunch of issues like that. And then 263 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 4: there's also a complaint about open Ai suggesting to venture 264 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: capitalists that they not invest in Elon Musk's company, which 265 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 4: my understanding is something that is not all that unusual. 266 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 4: Sarah may have a better sense of this is not 267 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 4: something that's entirely unusual in the world of venture capital, 268 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 4: although you know, perhaps it does raise some raise some 269 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 4: legal issues. Basically Elon Musk doing everything you can to 270 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: mess with you know, a competitor and and really the 271 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 4: strongest competitor in the in the world of AI. 272 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 7: What's so interesting about this case to me is like, 273 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 7: usually when there's a lawsuit, you can get a sense 274 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 7: of who is who's the big doug and who's like 275 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 7: fighting for their life right. Usually it's like a David 276 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 7: versus Goliath kind of situation. In this situation, you know 277 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 7: that you've got the richest man in the world who 278 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 7: has his own AI company suing his I guess co 279 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 7: founder is one way to put it. Of Open Ai, 280 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 7: who has also created this extremely powerful, influential AI company 281 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,239 Speaker 7: that's that wants. 282 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 5: To conjunction with Microsoft. 283 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 7: In conjunction with an extremely powerful big tech company which 284 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 7: wants to completely reconfigure like the data center infrastructure in 285 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 7: the United States. It's going to cost them billions upon 286 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 7: billions of dollars, are going to need a lot of 287 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 7: government support, and so this lawsuit is interesting, but it's 288 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 7: also interesting in the sort of wider lens of like 289 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 7: Musk is now sitting at the right hand of the president, 290 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 7: Altman needs the government to be behind him one hundred 291 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 7: percent on his data center build out to fulfill open 292 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 7: AI's ambitions. So this not for profit debate is kind 293 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 7: of like a hiccup in the grand scheme of things, 294 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 7: in both of these men having like these intense ambitions 295 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 7: for AI taking over. 296 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 4: I do think Elon Musk's position has gotten a lot stronger, 297 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: and not only because he's revived this lawsuit, but because, 298 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: as Sarah says, he's in a position to have a 299 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 4: huge impact on AI policy and open ai and not 300 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: just AI policy, but anti trust policy, lots of policies 301 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 4: that potentially impact you know, not just open AI, but 302 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 4: like any company that he competes with. And so you 303 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 4: have this suit on one side, and then on the 304 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 4: other side, you know half a dozen things that the 305 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 4: Trump administration could or couldn't do that would have an 306 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 4: effect on this market and potentially could benefit and must We. 307 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: Should note that his AI company, Xai, all the while 308 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: is growing quite a bit, is it not. 309 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 6: They've built out this massive data center in Memphis, Tennessee 310 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 6: that they call Colossus. They have all these Nvidia GPUs. 311 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 6: They've hired a bunch of people. I don't know what 312 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 6: the current valuation is, but they yeah, no, it's I 313 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 6: mean it's a real company. It's small, but it is 314 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 6: not something to be taken lightly. Like Elon moves very. 315 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 7: Fast and in the market of AI, like what matters 316 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 7: is the capital, Like you just need money, Like the 317 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 7: tech is kind of open source at this point, you 318 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 7: just need buying and sometimes like appearing it's super capital 319 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 7: intensive industry, super capital intensive, Like it's getting more efficient, right, 320 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 7: but the amount of of compute power necessary to do 321 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 7: an energy and energy to do the kind of analysis 322 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 7: that AI needs to do, it's only getting getting exponentially 323 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 7: heavier as AI develops, and it's going to continue in 324 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 7: that direction. As AI gets more efficient, they're just going 325 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 7: to try to make it do more things, which is 326 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 7: going to cost more and require more. Like even if 327 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 7: like every energy plant in the entire United States ran 328 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 7: it full capacity, like it wouldn't fulfill the need of 329 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 7: this industry. But then there's also just like the idea 330 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 7: that if you are a competitor of Musk, which is, 331 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 7: to be clear, a lot of the entire business America. Yeah, 332 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 7: if you're if you're in if you're in EVS, if 333 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,919 Speaker 7: you're Jeff Bezos, if you're you know, a rival in 334 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 7: social media, if you're you have to be scared of 335 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 7: this open Ai lawsuit and also must proximity to Trump, 336 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 7: And like what that might mean for who Trump decides 337 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 7: to have a grudge against the other. 338 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 4: Thing is like this lawsuit doesn't have to succeed in 339 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 4: a conventional sense for it to hurt open Ai. Like 340 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 4: just slowing down open Ai is potentially a win for 341 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 4: Elon must because open Ai, yes, it's very successful. But 342 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 4: Sarah kind of hinted at this, none of these companies 343 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 4: are making money. Open Ai is losing huge amounts of money, 344 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 4: burning billions of dollars, and that's part of the reason 345 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 4: they're trying to go for profit, because they're trying to 346 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 4: create additional things they can offer investors to keep the 347 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 4: capital spigot flowing. So, you know, anything Musk can do 348 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 4: to slow open Ai down is going to help his company, 349 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 4: which is at effectively an earlier stage. But you know, 350 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 4: really all these companies are at an early stage, So 351 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 4: so despite the fact that open as a lead, you know, 352 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 4: he can kind of like start to try to bring 353 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 4: his company up to parody. 354 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 5: Got it okay? Now? Dan? 355 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 3: Meanwhile, JP Morgan decided, I believe sometime in the last 356 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: few days, to drop a lawsuit it had brought against 357 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: Musk tell us. 358 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 6: What happened there, Yeah, I mean this was sort of 359 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 6: a suit from twenty twenty one where JP Morgan was 360 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 6: claiming that Tesla owed them one hundred and sixty two 361 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 6: million dollars tied to like stock warrant transaction and it 362 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 6: was over a strike price. It was such a small 363 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 6: amount of money, which is crazy because like I always 364 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 6: think of Elon in terms of billions, not millions, and 365 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 6: this one seemed relatively small. 366 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 5: If it ain't fifty billion, what is It's nothing? 367 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, Anyway, they agreed to drop the lawsuit. 368 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 6: And I think you have to think about like the 369 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 6: judiciary as a whole, like which courthouses are all these 370 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 6: suits heard in, and like why Tesla has moved to Texas. 371 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 6: And I think that anytime there's a change in administration, 372 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 6: you just start to see a lot of litigation wrap 373 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 6: up because people think about the cost benefit analysis of 374 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 6: continuing to litigate under a new administration when there could 375 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 6: be new judges appointed in different courtrooms and. 376 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: Max, you know, it's also just the calculus, as Danager said, 377 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: it just a few million dollars or I don't know 378 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 3: how many millions, But yeah, is it worth pursuing that 379 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 3: when against the next president's first budy? 380 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 5: But it's not, and it's not I don't even think 381 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 5: it's that. 382 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: I think it's that, you know, JP Morgan wants those 383 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 4: one hundred and sixty two million dollars, but it very 384 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 4: much also wants future fees that Elon Musk could pay 385 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 4: and you know, in the. 386 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 3: In the's, but it also presumably one of those future 387 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 3: fees at the time it suited him. 388 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 4: No, no, But my point is like I'm not saying 389 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 4: you shouldn't pay your professional services providers, but businesses choose 390 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 4: to not pay their professional service to providers all the time. 391 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 4: And there are lawsuits just like this that are effectively 392 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 4: like negotiations over how much money are going to be paid? 393 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 4: Is he going to pay more in the future. And 394 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 4: in the reports about this settlement, part of the reason 395 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 4: that they're the rational for dropping is that there are 396 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 4: future commercial arrange. 397 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 6: Yeah, there's some kind of settlement agreement. Yeah, there's like 398 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 6: an undisclosed settlement agreement. 399 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 5: Okay, so. 400 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they're saying that it's I forget the exact wording, 401 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 4: but it's essentially with an eye to future commercial stuff. 402 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 3: All right, Listen, we're gonna drop the lawsuits for now. 403 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: They will keep coming up up again and again and again, so. 404 00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 5: Do not fret. 405 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 3: And I want to talk a little bit about further 406 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: signs of the shifting customer base for Elon's companies. You know, Sarah, 407 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 3: yesterday Bloomberg we had a good story some of our 408 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 3: colleagues did on how we're starting to see signs that 409 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 3: conservatives are driving Model Wise and other vehicles. I suppose 410 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: this is proof that at some level, at least anecdotal 411 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 3: proof that this shift has begun. 412 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 7: I mean, this is something we've been talking about for 413 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 7: a while, ever since Elon started to move rightward his products. 414 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 7: His companies are getting politically coodd too. And I guess 415 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 7: they always were because Tesla's were at one point considered 416 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 7: this environmental statement, right, like, you cared about climate change, 417 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 7: you got a Tesla because you wanted to drive an 418 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 7: electric car. 419 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: You didn't want to use. 420 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 7: Fossil fuels, and so liberals bought a lot of Tesla's, 421 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 7: and now those same people are saying, oh my god, 422 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 7: I bought the car that is backed by Elon Musk 423 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 7: and I feel I feel like connected to Trump when 424 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 7: I drive it around, even though I didn't vote for him. 425 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 7: So on the one hand, you've got a lot of 426 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,479 Speaker 7: liberals trying to get rid of their Teslas, and then 427 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 7: you also got a lot of conservatives saying, hey, maybe 428 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 7: this is cool, right. 429 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 3: It's cool, and they're buying them. And to Sarah's point, 430 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 3: there Max, there has been a proliferation of these bumper 431 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: stickers that some of these liberals on the coast who 432 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: had bought their Teslas and are suddenly mortified by the 433 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 3: fact that they own Tesla's, but they're not yet quite 434 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: ready to get rid of their Tesla. So all these 435 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 3: bumper stickers are out now. Some are tame and subdued. 436 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: There's like as simple as love the car, not Elon, 437 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 3: and there's the anti Elon Tesla club. Some are a 438 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 3: little creative Elon ate my cat. And there are some 439 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: that are just like blunt and aggressive Elon sucks, shut up. Elon, 440 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 3: And then there are also some pro Elon stickers. If 441 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 3: one is so inclined to by those, you have Elon 442 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: Musk Free Speech Hero, Elon Musk making speech free again, 443 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: and in Musk we trust, by the way, max up 444 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: point one other thing out. There's not one that I 445 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 3: could find. Zero bumper stickers on Elon Inc. Neither four 446 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 3: or against that is. 447 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 4: I think that's a failing of marketing. 448 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 5: Don't we have. 449 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 3: Don't we have an Don't we have an email address 450 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 3: where people can send us ideas? 451 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 5: So we need Elon Inc. 452 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 4: At Bloomberg dot net. Tell us your ideas for bumper stickers. 453 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: Ready, you love the show or hate the show, just 454 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: send them in test us. 455 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 7: To just have those bumper stickers at the at the dealership. 456 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 4: Like my favorite stickers and the ones I've actually seen 457 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 4: the most of are ones that say, effectively, I bought 458 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 4: this before he went crazy classes, and I feel like 459 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 4: that is sort of telling about the not only the 460 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 4: sort of cultural signifiers around the brand, but also like 461 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 4: the used car market. I mean, one reason we're seeing 462 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 4: these bumper stickers is it's like not particularly easy to 463 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 4: unload your used Tesla because of these discounts. 464 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 5: They have these stickers on them. 465 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 4: No, because over the lie last year and a half 466 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: or so, as Tesla's sales have faltered to some extent, 467 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 4: Tesla like rapidly dropped its prices, so huge price cuts. 468 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 4: So people are looking at taking a huge haircut if 469 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 4: they sell their Model three like it. This really like 470 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 4: devastated the price for the used Tesla market. So oh 471 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 4: and oh, by the way, there aren't that many comparably 472 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 4: priced Evy alternatives. So you're in this situation where, gee, 473 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 4: you'd really like to sell your Tesla, but you but 474 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 4: there's no good alternative. You can't get a good return, 475 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 4: There's not there's not a comparably priced ev with with 476 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 4: comparable things. So if you're a liberal who's like a 477 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 4: little bit upset about the electric resolution is you can't 478 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 4: sell your Tesla. You just have you get a bumper sticker. 479 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 6: So you just have to buy a bumper sticker and 480 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 6: like virtue signal that like you like bought the car 481 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 6: before Elon. 482 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: Went crazy again. 483 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 6: It's just yeah, I think it's very funny. I mean, 484 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 6: here in the Bay Area, I see the bumper stickers 485 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 6: all the time. But musk shift to the right has 486 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 6: been underway for years. He moved to Texas in twenty twenty. 487 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 6: He has been crapping on California ever since. Like Tesla's 488 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 6: early adopters, like the consumers who basically like helped build 489 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 6: the brand, are largely like Hollywood people and tech people 490 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 6: in Silicon Valley. Some of them are environmentalists, a lot 491 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 6: of them are frankly just tech people who really like 492 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 6: the car. And then you have like libertarians who wanted 493 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 6: the US to be independent from oil. But but yeah, no, 494 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 6: I mean this has been underway for a while. You 495 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 6: can buy the stickers. You can buy the bumper stickers 496 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 6: on Amazon. Now it's like a thing. 497 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, they're all over the place. 498 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I think somebody should maybe they're out there, 499 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 3: somebody like specially to sell to the cyber truck buyers, 500 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: should have a sticker that says I bought this, you know, 501 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: cyber truck after I realized you know who elons. 502 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 6: I mean, I think how that impacts sales overall in 503 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 6: the US going forward is going to be super interesting. 504 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 6: I mean, Tesla is headed towards its first year over 505 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 6: year decline because of declining sales in the United States. 506 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 3: The data I thought that the delivery data out of 507 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 3: China that came out overnight for November wasn't great either, right, I. 508 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 6: Mean, it's okay, but like it's not going to offset 509 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 6: what is predicted to be a decline in the US 510 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 6: and in Europe. But it's really hard to tease out, 511 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 6: like is the decline because of Elon's politics or is 512 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 6: it because they frankly have like a very stale lineup 513 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 6: and like the cyber truck is still not in like 514 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 6: super high volume. And so I think what's what's weirder 515 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 6: is just that all of Elon's products are so polarizing. 516 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 6: Like we've talked about Tesla, but I mean, Sarah, look 517 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 6: at X, Like now if you're on X, it's like, oh, 518 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 6: does that mean you support Trump? Or does that mean 519 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 6: that you support the administration. We've seen this like huge 520 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 6: surge to Blue Sky after the election, and it's remarkable 521 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 6: that someone has so polarized the brands of his own company. 522 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 7: And what's funny is the X is very It's a 523 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 7: very similar situation to Tesla, where where people are polarized 524 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 7: about the product but they can't quite decide what to 525 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 7: do about it. You know, people are hesitant to leave 526 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 7: all their followers on X. You're seeing these these open 527 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 7: debates about like, well, you know, maybe I should stay 528 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 7: on X because somebody needs to talk to these these 529 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 7: people and help them understand where they're going wrong. And 530 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,120 Speaker 7: somebody needs to witness the dissent into fascism of America. Right. 531 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 7: There's just a lot of justification and a lot of 532 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 7: thinking about you know, is it better to delete my 533 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 7: account and go to Blue Sky? Is it better to 534 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 7: stay on X and and fight? But that means I'm 535 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 7: giving elon my attention to my money. 536 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 3: Are there any conservatives by the way, I'm Blue Sky 537 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 3: or in any kind of. 538 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 7: Mutual anywhere that people can fight with people they disagree 539 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 7: with Online, You're gonna have all kinds of people, right. 540 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 7: That was always one of the one of the draws 541 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 7: of X. It's more fun than true social because there 542 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 7: are people who disagree and you can go in their 543 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 7: applies and explain why you think what you think. 544 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 3: Okay, just to bring it back to Tesla again for 545 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 3: a second and a theory, I have that for you 546 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: guys to opine on and blow up and Max with 547 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: some of his comments earlier. Max already has begun the 548 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: process of blowing up this theory. But the theory goes 549 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: like this, that what if Elon's turn to the right 550 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 3: actually winds up rapidly accelerating EV adoption in America, that. 551 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 5: The liberal elites or the liberal. 552 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 3: Buyers let's say, who are getting rid of their Tesla 553 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 3: as they own or are refusing to buy a new Tesla, 554 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: well they were just going to buy some other evy. 555 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 5: Those people are going to buy an ev regardless. 556 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 3: And by shifting to the right as Elon has, he 557 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: is bringing in a whole new buyer base in red 558 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: states who otherwise never would have looked at EV's at all. 559 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 4: Max's Smith, I think this is like fan fiction basically, 560 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: Like you know, we've we've talked about versions of this theory, 561 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 4: I think going back over a year, and you can 562 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 4: sort of see because like Elon Musk, he sold a 563 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 4: lot of cars to liberals, he's kind of tapped that 564 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 4: market out. Meanwhile, you have a bunch of red states 565 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 4: where there isn't a lot of EV adoptions. Therefore, this 566 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 4: all makes perfect sense now that would I guess like 567 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 4: you could kind of get behind that theory if not 568 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 4: for the fact that Elon Musk just became a campaign 569 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 4: surrogate for a candidate who ran in part on the 570 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 4: idea that EV's are bad, Like Trump went on the 571 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 4: stump over and over again and said that EV's were 572 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 4: no good and that we need to drill baby dress. 573 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 4: That's not only that, it's not just Trump, it's Elon 574 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 4: Musk himself who's saying this, who's saying we are pivoting 575 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 4: away from electric cars. If you think of us as 576 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 4: a car company, you got it twisted. We are an 577 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 4: AI company now, so it does make some sense. And 578 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 4: I just one other thing, Like, it's not like Tesla 579 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 4: never had conservatives driving them. I've read some of these 580 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 4: articles about conservative car buyers and who are like really 581 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 4: enthusiastic about Tesla, and I'm like, it's like they're like 582 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 4: a lot of professionals, wealthy people who happen to vote 583 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 4: for Trump and also Arab Tesla. And I have to 584 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 4: ask number one, yeah, would they really have a lot 585 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 4: of test And second, anyone who's followed this company for 586 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 4: a long time knows that there have always been kind 587 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: of off the grid type, you know, militia types who've 588 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 4: liked this right, They like the idea of of like 589 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 4: not relying on yeah, energy dependency, d like libert There's 590 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 4: always been a libertarian flair to this company. I think 591 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 4: what's happened and this is you know, unfortunate for the 592 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 4: company and for the mission, which is that Tesla went 593 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 4: from being like a cool brand to bringing kind of 594 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 4: a cringe brand, being a brand that is associated very 595 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 4: closely with one political candidate, when whereas before it kind 596 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 4: of transcended those bounds. And and yeah, that might lead 597 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 4: to kind of a bump now, but is it going 598 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 4: to be good in the long term. I don't know. 599 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: We need the data though, ultimately, Dana and the data 600 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 3: I guess just will come our way over time. 601 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 5: Well. 602 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, and just to be clear, the data is just 603 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 6: sales data. Doesn't say why someone bought a Tesla. Doesn't 604 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 6: say I bought a Tesla because Elon Musk is like. 605 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: But it should give us we can get if we 606 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 3: work hard enough at it, we can get geographical breakdown. 607 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 5: Can we not. 608 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 6: Yeah, you can get geographical breakdown eventually. But I'm just 609 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 6: saying that, like, there's no like, all of these stories 610 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 6: are just anecdotal, and ultimately what matters to Wall Street 611 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 6: is how many frickin' cars. 612 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: Did they sell in twenty twenty four? 613 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 5: Not many, is the answer, actually? 614 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 6: And is it more or less than last year? And 615 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 6: if it's less, that's a problem. But at the same time, 616 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 6: to Max's point, like Elon doesn't care anymore, like Elon 617 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 6: is bored of making cars. He wants Tesla to be 618 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 6: an AI company and a robotics company. 619 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 7: Do you think that Elon's environmental mission is true to 620 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,239 Speaker 7: him or true to the business, Like was that a 621 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 7: means of selling Tesla's early on or was that something 622 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 7: he actually cares about? And if so, is he going 623 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 7: to change Trump's mind on Drill, Baby Drill. 624 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 3: We are at a time we're going to wrap it there, 625 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 3: But I do want to remind our listeners again that 626 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 3: we need your Elon Inc. Bumper sticker ideas. They go 627 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 3: Max to, Yeah, it's Elon Inc. At Bloomberg dot net. 628 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 4: And you know we are looking for not just bumper 629 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 4: sticker ideas, although definitely keen on those, but also slogans, 630 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 4: product extensions, merge and really anything else about the show. 631 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 4: We've already had a few emails come in, and I think, 632 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 4: like next week maybe we'll. 633 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 5: Do it quick Singers Yeah, we'll We'll. 634 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 4: Go through some of them and respond to some of 635 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 4: your ideas and maybe some of your criticisms. We will 636 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 4: take any slogans I would even put If someone sends 637 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 4: a slogan, I might even put. 638 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 5: It on the back of my Honda. Odysty Absolutely, let's 639 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 5: do it. 640 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 4: I started listening to this podcast before they. 641 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: Went crazy, exactly, Max, Sarah Danna, thanks. 642 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: For joining, Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure, great 643 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: to be here. 644 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Stacy Wang. Anna Maserrakus is 645 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 3: our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci is our senior editor. The 646 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 3: idea for this very show also came from Rayhan. Blake 647 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 3: Maples handles engineering, and Emma Sanchez fact checks. Our supervising 648 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 3: producer is Magnus Henrikson. The elon Ink theme is written 649 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 3: and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura. Brendan Francis 650 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 3: Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the 651 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 3: head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters 652 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you 653 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help 654 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 3: other listeners find us see you next week.