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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Nol.

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Speaker 4: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 4: super producer Paul Mission Control DECA. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 4: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 4: want you to know, coming to you live from a

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Speaker 4: universe of our own, straight to yours. What if we

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Speaker 4: could build a perfect society? Guys? What if we figure

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Speaker 4: it out? Today?

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Speaker 3: Are utopia?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like where scientists have full unregulated control.

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Speaker 4: A technocracy. I'm so in Yeah, Like it's weird, right,

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Speaker 4: because that's something pretty much all civilizations have aspired to.

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Speaker 4: Nobody seems to get the concept of utopia right so far.

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Speaker 4: And we'll also along the way tonight figure out why

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Speaker 4: utopia is kind.

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Speaker 3: Of a mean joke, right, Like, isn't you?

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Speaker 5: I almost think utopia and dystopia are synonymous in a

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Speaker 5: weird way, you know.

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Speaker 4: You know, It's like a lot of things that are

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Speaker 4: in theory utopian do end up being dystoping in practice,

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Speaker 4: and that's so much film and fiction, right, They're essentially

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Speaker 4: terribles about how trying to make a perfect society goes

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Speaker 4: terribly wrong. Shout out soiling, green, clockwork, orange.

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Speaker 5: Communism, mean, come on, you know, communism sounds great in theory,

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Speaker 5: but it's just never quite worked out the way it

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Speaker 5: seemed like it should on paper.

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Speaker 4: Capitalism as well, you know, everybody's getting a little bit today.

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Speaker 4: We've got to also shout out this chilling line, Matt,

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Speaker 4: I always always defer to you a matrix knowledge. At

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Speaker 4: the very end of the matrix. We're talking about this

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Speaker 4: off air, the architect and Paul pointed out, there's a

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Speaker 4: good way to do the voice, but the architect is

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Speaker 4: speaking with Neo and says, you know, you're not in

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Speaker 4: the first version of the Matrix. The first one I

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Speaker 4: made was Paradise, and it was a monumental failure. I mean.

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Speaker 4: And then of course the Fallout series, right, you got

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Speaker 4: played the game to like that.

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Speaker 5: Show, well, even like the whole idea of the Vault

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Speaker 5: situation is in and of itself a utopia that is

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Speaker 5: going to lead to a greater utopia on Earth, but

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Speaker 5: only after complete and total annihilation. That's almost like a

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Speaker 5: prerequisite sometimes for a proper utopia.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, in like today's episode, each one of those vaults

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Speaker 2: is designed with some kind of experiment, like for utopia.

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Speaker 2: Could this be a utopia if these parameters are set.

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Speaker 4: If we tweak X, we change Y, we futsa Z,

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Speaker 4: we will build a more perfect world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: In tonight's episode, we're exploring the story of one man who,

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Speaker 4: depending on whom you ask, who sought to apply the

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Speaker 4: scientific method, just like you were saying, Matt to the

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Speaker 4: construction of civilization is a reasonable dude, he said, instead

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Speaker 4: of trying out rules on humans, instead of cooking live

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Speaker 4: with empires, what if we start with rodents? Here are

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Speaker 4: the facts. Let's start with a Tennessee boy named John

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Speaker 4: Bumpah or Bumpus Calhoun. That is his middle name. And

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Speaker 4: we had a discussion about being adults.

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Speaker 2: What if we spell it ben?

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Speaker 4: All right, Matt b U mp A s S. Let's

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Speaker 4: go to Nola because Noel wasn't here where we talked

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Speaker 4: about how would you pronounce this name?

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Speaker 3: It's what you do at the club, y'all?

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Speaker 2: You bump ass oh.

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Speaker 4: Another legacy of his work, Perhaps.

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Speaker 3: One can only imagine.

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Speaker 4: So this guy is a behavioral researcher. The fancy name

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Speaker 4: for his specific field is ethologist, not an ethnologist, not

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Speaker 4: an ethicist, but instead someone who studies the behavior of

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Speaker 4: non human animals.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, and this person is highly influential. Let's say

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Speaker 2: we I think many, several of us, maybe all of us,

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Speaker 2: learned about him when stuff he should know kind of

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Speaker 2: like mentioned him way back in the day, almost ten

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Speaker 2: years ago, on an episode called how zero Population Growth Works.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, shout out, shout out to our pals Josh, Chuck

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Speaker 4: and Jerry zero population growth. It's still it's really interesting,

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Speaker 4: isn't it to go back and hear that episode.

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I don't know, it just can't. Every once

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Speaker 2: in a while, I listened to s YSK again and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh man, I love this show.

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Speaker 3: They're lovely dudes. I think that was before my time.

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Speaker 5: But I'm assuming the zero population growth is some concept

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Speaker 5: involving eugenics or something, is it, or is it something

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Speaker 5: a little bit more less evil than that.

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Speaker 4: Goes into things like enthusiasm or enthusian thoughts.

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Speaker 5: The Georgia guidestones y type stuff, right, Yeah, yeah, to

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Speaker 5: this number Yeah, shout out to the Population Bomb.

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Speaker 4: That's a book that also changed the game.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it goes back to an early observation by

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Speaker 2: this the Malthusian originator Lord. Yeah, but the guy who said, hey, uh,

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Speaker 2: population of humans, it kind of grows exponentially, but the

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Speaker 2: amount of food that we're able to produce does say,

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Speaker 2: grow exponentially. It's just got kind of this nice little

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Speaker 2: line that does increase over time, but not at the

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Speaker 2: same rate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he looked at he looked at that the dreaded

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Speaker 4: X Y axis right, and said, there's an inflection point

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Speaker 4: upon which the S hits the F. And he wasn't

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Speaker 4: talking about San Francisco, but.

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Speaker 2: He but he thought he thought the S was going

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Speaker 2: to hit the F around the year like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like before the year two thousand.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Josh Josh in that episode mentions that he thought, what

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Speaker 2: year two thousand is when London, like Britain for the

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Speaker 2: most part, would no longer exist because he will have

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Speaker 2: torn itself apart.

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Speaker 5: So this guy's essentially like an academic doom profit that guy,

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Speaker 5: Thomas Malthus, Yeah, yeah, and he's he's kind of more

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Speaker 5: in the realm of economics. Yeah, yeah, but there is

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Speaker 5: a underlying academic bent to his predictions. He's not just like, fully,

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Speaker 5: you know, I've had a vision and.

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Speaker 4: This is what Yeah, he didn't think God told him, gotcha. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: he thought it was based on quantitative research and trends

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Speaker 4: as he saw him at the time, tatas mouthus Uh,

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Speaker 4: you know him, you know him.

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Speaker 3: Enthusiastic about it too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're having a good day and the day's

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Speaker 4: too good, check out some of his work.

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Speaker 5: But back to use that as a term, right, if

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Speaker 5: you're mouth Susian, then you're sort of like a naysayer

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Speaker 5: kind of right or.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, well they wouldn't call themselves naysayers. They will

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Speaker 4: call themselves realist, which is what most pessimistic people do.

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Speaker 4: There you go, I'm shrugging everybody an audio podcast. Uh

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Speaker 4: so this back to our guy dot Calhoun. The first

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Speaker 4: thing we have to understand about his studies is they're

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Speaker 4: often mischaracterized with the idea like you'll read about it

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Speaker 4: in pop science or whatever, and the idea is presented

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Speaker 4: as though Calhoun attempted to construct a perfect society for

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Speaker 4: various rodents and from there figure out how to create

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Speaker 4: a better society for humans. This isn't really the case.

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Speaker 4: What he actually did is remove a lot of the

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Speaker 4: usual population constraint variables or the mortality creators, because it

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Speaker 4: wasn't because he wanted a paradise really for rodents. He

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Speaker 4: was interested instead in the effects of proximity and population

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Speaker 4: overpopulation in particular sout out in malthews. Maybe we learn

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Speaker 4: a little bit about him because I didn't know this.

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Speaker 4: He taught at Emory University, just up the road from US.

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Speaker 5: Indeed, a graduate of Northwestern, he did teach at Emory

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Speaker 5: as well as Ohio State, and then he moved with

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Speaker 5: his wife to Maryland, where he settled down at Johns

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Speaker 5: Hopkins in March of nineteen forty seven, where he began

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Speaker 5: a twenty eight month study of a colony of Norwegian

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Speaker 5: rats in a ten thousand square foot enclosure kind of

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Speaker 5: sounds like a bit of a barn, you know, an

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Speaker 5: out outbuilding kind of situation. There were five females in

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Speaker 5: this cohort that, over the time span, were theoretically able

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Speaker 5: to produce five thousand healthy offspring for this particular size enclosure,

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Speaker 5: and Calhoun found that the population never exceeded two hundred

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Speaker 5: individuals and eventually stabilized at one fifty.

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Speaker 2: Just really quick brown Norway rats. If you want to

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Speaker 2: buy them, a male at three weeks old costs one

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Speaker 2: hundred and nine dollars and twenty nine cents. A female

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Speaker 2: costs one one hundred and eleven dollars and three cents.

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Speaker 3: Just a pricey rat.

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Speaker 4: Shout out secret of nim isn't it?

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Speaker 3: Wouldn't you say?

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Speaker 5: That's I would think I would all have thought that

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Speaker 5: rats would be typically less expensive than that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you can catch them for free, that's true.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's twenty four numbers. We're talking nineteen forty seven.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, it was given rats away at that point.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, well it should be noted when we're thinking

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Speaker 2: about these rats. These are like control rats, right. They

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Speaker 2: are designed to be almost identical, so that when you

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Speaker 2: test one like a variable with one and another as

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Speaker 2: a control, you're actually going to be able to test

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Speaker 2: that variable without any other intervening variables.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because they're bread to Like you said, they're bred

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Speaker 4: to be relatively homogeneous, right, not to the point where

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Speaker 4: they will become quickly incestuous. But they're also more importantly

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Speaker 4: bred to not have prominent genetic defects or susceptibility to

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Speaker 4: certain diseases, and they're kind of same, samey. I also

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Speaker 4: want to shout out rat intelligence. There's a book that

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Speaker 4: are pal Robert Lamb and I really love called Rats

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Speaker 4: Observations on the History and Habitat of the City These

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Speaker 4: most Unwanted Inhabitants, and it focuses on rats in New

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Speaker 4: York and it's amazing. It's a really weird read. They

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Speaker 4: have huge balls, by the way, rats huge balls literally

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Speaker 4: and figured yeah.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of and also not speaking of, just one one

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Speaker 2: more statistic here with brown Norway rats from this specific

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Speaker 2: catalog that I'm looking at, you can get a lactating

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Speaker 2: rat with litter for six hundred and ninety three ten cents.

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Speaker 2: That is it again, litter is that I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but it's a Brown Norway rat.

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Speaker 3: It's you try rat milk. Just wondering.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess what I'm saying is for these types

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Speaker 2: of tests you can get very specific with the kind

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Speaker 2: of rat, be like what state that rat is in,

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Speaker 2: how many weeks all that rat is, if it's already

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Speaker 2: no longer breeding, it's it's just crazy.

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Speaker 4: So it's speaking weird stuff right. The technology is not

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Speaker 4: here yet for Calhoun to scope in to this level,

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Speaker 4: to twenty twenty four level of rat eugenics, for lack

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Speaker 4: of a better term, But he finds something mysterious and

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Speaker 4: it haunts the world today. Like you were saying, no,

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Speaker 4: this enclosure could theoretically house safely five thousand rats in

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Speaker 4: this population, but it stabilizes at one point fifty, just

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Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty rats, So we ask what gives.

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Speaker 4: He also notices these rats are not forming a little

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Speaker 4: rat nation state. Instead, they're splitting up into colonies the

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Speaker 4: size into colonies of about a dozen, which is the

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Speaker 4: size that would naturally occur in the wild before these

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Speaker 4: different mortality variables kicked in predators, disease, lack of food,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. And he's thinking, well, why I took away

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Speaker 4: all the stresses. You know, literally they are living the

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Speaker 4: best life. They're just in a cage despite all their rage,

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Speaker 4: and later he stopped. Later he moves to Maine and

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Speaker 4: he continues to study these Norway rats until about nineteen

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Speaker 4: fifty one. Eventually the family goes back to Maryland. His

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Speaker 4: studies continue. He moves into other rodents. We're going to

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Speaker 4: mention an outfit called the National Institute of Mental Health.

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Speaker 4: Pretty often it is indeed the secret of NIM. And indeed,

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Speaker 4: what film It's true. I didn't get it when I just.

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Speaker 3: Saw the film. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's exact.

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Speaker 4: So he did. NIM gets some land outside of a

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Speaker 4: town called Poolsville, Maryland, and he headed a couple of projects.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 4: He began his most famous series of experiments, not on

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Speaker 4: the rats, but on mice. And he built these different

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Speaker 4: fallout vaults for mice, and he called them, in a

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Speaker 4: burst of humility universes, and it's a high fluted name,

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Speaker 4: but besides is astonishing. He they wanted to see what

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Speaker 4: happened when rodents lived without the stresses of life in

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Speaker 4: the wild. Limitless food, limitless water, I kid you not

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Speaker 4: little rat condos, little mouse condos.

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Speaker 2: Well, imagine this is this enclosure. And remember the first

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Speaker 2: one that when he was testing earlier, he had this

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Speaker 2: huge ten thousand square foot area where he's watching all

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Speaker 2: the different mice kind of grouping off like that. He

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Speaker 2: wanted to see them in these much smaller little spaces, right,

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Speaker 2: as you said, with limitless resources. But if you imagine

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Speaker 2: the starter mice right, that began in that quote universe

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Speaker 2: that he created. All of the preceding mice that are

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Speaker 2: born from those original mice only know that thing, that

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Speaker 2: enclosure that has the walls up that they can't climb over, right,

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Speaker 2: So it really is the entirety of their universe.

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Speaker 4: They've never been outside of Plato's cavern, you know what

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Speaker 4: I mean. They're still plugged into the matrix from the

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Speaker 4: cradle to the grave. That's the excellent observation. And these

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Speaker 4: were all This was all again not because the guy

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Speaker 4: loves happy rats and happy mice. He wants to learn

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Speaker 4: about population density and how it affects behavior. So he says,

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Speaker 4: I will build for the utopia. What could go wrong?

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Speaker 4: Pretty much everything. This is the story of Universe twenty five.

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Speaker 4: We'll get into it after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 4: Here's where it gets crazy. Let's go back to this

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Speaker 4: really interesting thing that you said at the top, Noll,

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Speaker 4: the concept of utopia. You said, well, it always feels

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Speaker 4: like it becomes a dystopia. It's so weird because back

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Speaker 4: in fifteen sixteen, the word was coined as a kind

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Speaker 4: of like snarky, mean.

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Speaker 5: Joke, like a thing that's not attainable almost right, like

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Speaker 5: it's it's impossible. It was coined by Sir Thomas Moore

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Speaker 5: in fifteen sixty. He created the word from the Greek

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Speaker 5: words for not and place, u for not and topos

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Speaker 5: for place, so it meant nowhere. It's a liminal space.

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Speaker 5: It's a non existent thing. So before the dawn of

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Speaker 5: monern science, the guy who coined the word that we

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Speaker 5: use to describe a perfect society was literally thumbing his

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Speaker 5: nose at the concept in its entirety. But pretty funny, guys,

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Speaker 5: You guys, what if he's.

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Speaker 2: Really talking about that infinite nothingness that we all experience

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Speaker 2: upon the moment of death, before the light of everything

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Speaker 2: comes to gather us.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. It all ends into infinity.

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Speaker 4: When you write an email into the void here and

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Speaker 4: sometimes the void writes back.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean sometimes you get a subsystem undeliverable.

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Speaker 3: Message back as well. Maybe he really is a good thing,

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Speaker 3: as what I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: Guys, welcome to the emptiness. Charlco's experiments seemed in a

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Speaker 4: weird way to bear out Moore's joke, and we don't

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Speaker 4: know what he thought about the work of Sir Thomas Moore.

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Speaker 4: But from these rats he moved on. He couldn't always

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Speaker 4: call him Universes, so that was very fun, and we'll

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Speaker 4: see he loves fun language. He originally called the The

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Speaker 4: Mice Experiments Mortality Inhibiting Environment for mice. And like you

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Speaker 4: were saying, it's July of nineteen sixty eight when he

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Speaker 4: introduces a breeding group such that it could avoid inbreeding

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Speaker 4: into a new habitat called Universe twenty five. And you know,

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Speaker 4: again we're saying Universe is a little bit ambitious for

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Speaker 4: this one because it's not super big.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm sure I Fallt was inspired by a

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Speaker 5: lot of things, Like there's there's so many examples of

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Speaker 5: these types of isolated communities and experiments, whether they be

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Speaker 5: with animals or you know, prison experiments or whatever. But

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Speaker 5: I can't help but think Universe twenty five vault one

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Speaker 5: to eleven, you know what I mean, Like it really

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Speaker 5: does have a nice connective tissue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, as we said before, he went from ten

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Speaker 2: thousand square feet in nineteen forty seven to nine square

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Speaker 2: feet of metal.

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Speaker 4: Makes yeah, it is much smaller. But again, as you

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Speaker 4: pointed out, so astuteley, the mice evolved don't know this.

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Speaker 4: Their kids, their progenies certainly will never know this nine

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Speaker 4: foot square it's a metal pan. The sides are about

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Speaker 4: four point five feet high, which is not really a

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Speaker 4: huge problem for rats depending on the surface, but it's

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Speaker 4: pretty difficult for mice yes, to summit that well.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's the top seventeen inches if you've

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Speaker 2: imagined from the height top of this thing down seventeen

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Speaker 2: inches is like just bare wall that is very difficult

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Speaker 2: to scale.

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Speaker 4: So you can climb up a little bit right to

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Speaker 4: get to your mouse condo.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's designed that way right to go up to

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Speaker 2: the condos, which is weird.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, nesting boxes, food hoppers, water dispensers. It is like

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Speaker 4: it is like a mouse episode of Cribs. To date

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Speaker 4: ourselves with MTV references, and there were no predators obviously.

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Speaker 4: There's just this benevolent yet distant human thing that functions

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Speaker 4: as God for these guys. Every four to eight weeks

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Speaker 4: they get hit with their equivalent of you know, a

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Speaker 4: natural disaster, a climate this event, because that's when the

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Speaker 4: enclosure is cleaned, you know what I mean. So maybe

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Speaker 4: and we don't know, if we don't know enough about

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Speaker 4: their cognition to know whether this became a story they

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Speaker 4: told each other about.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: We also don't know whether they could predict the coming

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Speaker 4: of the cleaning.

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Speaker 3: Oh, plow the.

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Speaker 2: Plow because it did have to be cleaned out on

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Speaker 2: a regular basis, right, I mean that was one of

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Speaker 2: the things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's still I mean they're like the top tier

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Speaker 4: lap mice, but they still poop. We haven't figured out

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Speaker 4: how to make mice not poop.

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Speaker 5: Do you think that like mice in this kind of

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Speaker 5: situation have a sense of what's going on outside, you know,

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Speaker 5: or like do they do they look at I know,

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Speaker 5: I know we couldn't possibly you know, get inside the

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Speaker 5: head or try to simulate the cognition of rats, but

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Speaker 5: like these these forces that come in and remove them

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Speaker 5: and clean them and then put them back, you think

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Speaker 5: they look at them as like godlike forces, you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't know, alien abductions.

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Speaker 2: It'd be, yeah, some kind of weird part of just

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Speaker 2: aspect of the universe that happens. But there's no human.

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Speaker 2: You're not actually interacting with the human at any time

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Speaker 2: whose arms are coming down and cleaning things, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just these disembodied limbs that descend into your world

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Speaker 2: and then you know, wipe off the surfaces or whatever.

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Speaker 4: They probably recognize smells, I'm thinking, but to your point,

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Speaker 4: it's probably just a thing in their environment. I do

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Speaker 4: imagine they are intelligent enough to envision something past the wall, right,

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Speaker 4: because they are naturally exploring creatures, right, so they without

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Speaker 4: knowing what is out there. They many of them attempted

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Speaker 4: to escape at some point, especially if stuff did not

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Speaker 4: work out as mouse society collapsed, which is exactly what happened.

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Speaker 4: The only obstacle in Universe twenty five and the preceding

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Speaker 4: experiments was space. So you got these eight mice in

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Speaker 4: this enclosure. At first, their vault is huge. It's designed

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Speaker 4: to hold as many as people round up to four thousand.

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Speaker 4: But I think of the original research it was something

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Speaker 4: like three and forty mice, which is a lot of mice.

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Speaker 2: Well, and it took them a long time to get

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Speaker 2: acclimated to that space too, right, those original eight mice,

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Speaker 2: the four breeding pairs, they like, didn't breed for a

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Speaker 2: long time. They were just kind of like, what the

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Speaker 2: heck is this place? I don't understand this, this is wrong,

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Speaker 2: why are we here? And then eventually they just gave

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Speaker 2: in and or you know whatever, they whatever change occurred

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Speaker 2: cognitively that they went, okay, we will begin nesting, we

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Speaker 2: will begin breeding.

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Speaker 4: It was better than the breeding pens from which they originated.

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Speaker 4: I can only imagine it's definitely a lot more room

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Speaker 4: because they weren't caught in the wild.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, But it did take one hundred and four

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Speaker 2: days before they actually settled down to reproduce.

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Speaker 4: And when the population began reproducing, they were doubling every

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Speaker 4: fifty five days. So this j curve growth for a while.

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Speaker 4: And by day three fifteen, so we're not quite a

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Speaker 4: year in the population has reached six hundred and twenty mice, gangbusters,

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Speaker 4: tickety boo. Everything's going well. Until around day three fifteen.

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Speaker 4: It was like some invisible switch just clicked and the

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Speaker 4: population growth, the rate of growth, not the actual population.

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Speaker 4: Yet the rate of growth declined and now it was

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Speaker 4: only doubling every one hundred and forty five days instead

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Speaker 4: of every fifty five days. And with that, in step,

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Speaker 4: the social structure broke down. There's a great article by

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Speaker 4: writer Esther inglis Arcu for Io nine or Gizmoto now

394
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Speaker 4: that sums it up and it's pretty crazy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, to read from that piece. At the peak population,

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Speaker 5: most mice spent every living second in the company of

397
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Speaker 5: hundreds of other mice. They gathered in the main squares,

398
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Speaker 5: waiting to be fed and occasionally attacking each other. Few

399
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Speaker 5: females carried pregnancies to term, and the ones that did

400
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Speaker 5: seem to simply forget about their babies. They'd move half

401
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Speaker 5: their litter away from danger and forget the rest.

402
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Speaker 3: Huh.

403
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Speaker 5: Sometimes they'd drop and abandon a baby while they were

404
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Speaker 5: carrying it. Guy, guys, are you familiar with the concept

405
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Speaker 5: of nesting behavior? Yes, this is this kind of figure

406
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Speaker 5: into that in a way like I mean, I don't know,

407
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Speaker 5: like this is maybe anomalous nesting behavior, or I guess

408
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Speaker 5: it's a situation that once it kind of balloons beyond

409
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Speaker 5: a certain point like that that I guess, uh, motherly

410
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Speaker 5: drive kind of gets weaker.

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Speaker 3: Or something like what is this? What's what's going on here?

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Speaker 2: I would point people to Population Density and Social Pathology,

413
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Speaker 2: which was written by mister John Calhoun, and he actually

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Speaker 2: has in this you can find it online, by the way,

415
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Speaker 2: as in PDA form. He's got illustrations basically of what

416
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Speaker 2: you're talking about nol like the typical nesting behavior of

417
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Speaker 2: mice in a population like this, how they build their nest,

418
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Speaker 2: what they do, you know, when they're in an enclosed

419
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Speaker 2: space and they've got the family in there, and they

420
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Speaker 2: you know, get all of the materials and arrange it

421
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Speaker 2: in such a way that the mice can kind of gather.

422
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Speaker 2: But then what was happening then where it was completely different.

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Speaker 5: Well, and a lot of nesting behavior too, involves protecting

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Speaker 5: the offspring from predators. So when you're in a situation

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Speaker 5: where you don't have any natural enemies, you know, I

426
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Speaker 5: wonder if that kind of freaks it out a little

427
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Speaker 5: better and it causes a little bit of the change

428
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Speaker 5: in the way these processes happen.

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Speaker 4: It gets even creepier and at a precipitous rate. And

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Speaker 4: we'll get to we'll get to the paper that kind

431
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Speaker 4: of changed popular science. Really we should also mention just

432
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Speaker 4: an example of what I think is a little bit creepy.

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Speaker 4: Calhoun was also particularly interested in a subgroup of rodents

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Speaker 4: that appeared inevitably in these universes. He called them, tell

435
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Speaker 4: me if you think this is creepy, folks. He called

436
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Speaker 4: them the beautiful ones. They're like the eloy in H. G.

437
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: Wells is the time machine, remember the time machine? Like

438
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 4: the surface dwelling vegetarians. It's not a perfect comparison because

439
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 4: the eloi obviously reproduce, but the beautiful ones do not.

440
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 4: They got like they post one male, one male rodent

441
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 4: outside and then the rest retreat into a secluded nesting

442
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 4: spot in the habitat, usually elevated, I think, and they

443
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: just eat, groom themselves and sleep. They don't fight, they

444
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: don't care for they're young. They don't reproduce their immune

445
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 4: in a way to the social collapse that occurs, which

446
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 4: is so weird.

447
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: So way they would do that.

448
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, they just checked out. It reminds me a little

449
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 4: bit of was it in Japan, Hikiko Mori or there's

450
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 4: some other country. I think it's China, where there's a

451
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 4: group of people who have done what they call the

452
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 4: lay down movement. They just check out a society. I

453
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 4: think it's too stressful. I'll do the bare minimum. But

454
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 4: is that better than what's happening to the rest of

455
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 4: the road in population wherein there's cannibalism, there's hyper non

456
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 4: consensual pan sexualism, and there's random violence.

457
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, in a roughly ninety six percent mortality rate or

458
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: newly born mice.

459
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, The last surviving mouse in Universe twenty five

460
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 4: is born on A six hundred right, and the population

461
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 4: then has reached two two d and twenty mice. The

462
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 4: experiment again set up for four thousand, but they just

463
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 4: as a society, they stopped. They stopped mousing. And how

464
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: do we explain this strange, deeply disturbing trend? What made

465
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 4: this perfect world so intolerably terrible that the test group

466
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: failed to reach full capacity even once? Not even once?

467
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 4: We could dive into it after a word from our sponsor.

468
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 5: Danan another line, they're surge pricing in the shoe store.

469
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: Now, sorry, Bud. You know out is there are more

470
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: and more people in the one shoe store, and most

471
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: of them also have two feet.

472
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: I just can't take this. I've had it.

473
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 2: It's enough to make you go. Of course, Going Bonkers

474
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: is available on the premium app version. Also, I know

475
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: what you mean. Every day I wake up and I.

476
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: Think is today? The day?

477
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: Is today? The day I bring the bomb to work?

478
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: And in this pointless sissaphy and charade.

479
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: Something troubling you friends. Shoes are just hats for feet.

480
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 4: You know, you could also go to a haberdashery.

481
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 5: It's not even the shoes, it's just look around. It's

482
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 5: all gotten out of hand. Wherever I go, there's a crowd,

483
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 5: a line, an app. I can't remember the last time

484
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 5: I was able to just be alone.

485
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 4: Well, if this civilization is too crowded, which we all understand,

486
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: then why not try a universe?

487
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: All your Oh is that another app? Oh?

488
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 4: Much more than that, gentlemen, what if I told you

489
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 4: right now you could have a universe to yourself, the universe?

490
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 4: Why oh you neverse?

491
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 5: Why?

492
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: Oh?

493
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 5: Universe?

494
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 4: Yes, the universe. Think of it as a planned community,

495
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 4: the most exclusive sort, with a population of one. You

496
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 4: gone are the days of competing for resources, ideology, or

497
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: the ability to feel seen in society. The universe provides

498
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,479
Speaker 4: you with an all encompassing, self contained reality. You simply

499
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: agree to a small bit of blood harvesting and DNA sampling,

500
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 4: undergo a small procedure for the helmet, and voila gay

501
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: blood helmet procedure, I said, and voila. Imagine a world

502
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: in which you never feel rushed, in which other people

503
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 4: only exist. Should you allow them to do so a world,

504
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: a universe with no dissenting opinions, no uncomfortable truths. Every

505
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 4: social media comment agrees with you, Every email is a

506
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 4: yes and right on. Everything you want is provided, sustaining

507
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: your base needs.

508
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 2: Every sam in.

509
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 4: You don't want to hear the rest.

510
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: Not really, it sounds great.

511
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 4: Can I have a shoe store in my yo universe?

512
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 4: You can imagine anything you want here?

513
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: Don't you mean there?

514
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 5: No?

515
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 4: Don't you see friends? You're here right now. The universe

516
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 4: is in practice responsible for, but legally intimified, and that's

517
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: not liable for the following possib side effects isolation, madness,

518
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 4: the condition Mega two portpoise complaint, social media fatigue, echo chambers,

519
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: bio spheres of mind, grandamact of violence, loss of sexual

520
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: apetite loss and general appetite loss, perpective, lost memory, loss

521
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 4: of precognitive ability, inability to pare for others, sociopathy, psychopathy,

522
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 4: hyperflaglens self for a be self healthy is great of

523
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: bleed necktang due to alleged coment effect. Currently not approved

524
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 4: in the following states Georgia, Hawaii, Idahos, state of happiness,

525
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 4: and peaceful state of mind.

526
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 5: The universe is a subsidiary of Illumination Global Unlimited.

527
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 4: So let's return to something you mentioned just a bit earlier, map,

528
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 4: which is the revolutionary nineteen sixty two paper issued in

529
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 4: Scientific American wherein wherein he this is still pre Universe

530
00:31:55,120 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: twenty five, this is still Norway rat era. He introduces

531
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 4: the lay public to the idea of what are called

532
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 4: behavioral sinks.

533
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: So here's an excerpt.

534
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 5: Many female rats are unable to carry the pregnancy to

535
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 5: full term or to survive delivery of their litters if

536
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 5: they did. An even greater number after successfully giving birth

537
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 5: fell short in their maternal functions. So yeah, I mean again,

538
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 5: we're seeing this weird erosion of what are typically the

539
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 5: strongest of biological drives. You know what, I just I'm

540
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 5: sorry I keep saying about what what gives this is wild.

541
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: Let's actually jump through the article really quickly, because this

542
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: is kind of what I wanted to mention when we

543
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: were talking about nesting behavior. If you go down, I

544
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: think it's page one forty six in the original like

545
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: Scientific American, you can find it with those illustrations of

546
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: the nesting behavior. I just want to read the normal one.

547
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: And then one of you guys read the read the

548
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: what was happening what we're describing here, So normal maternal

549
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: behavior among these rat populations would include building a fluffy,

550
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: well shaped nest for the young in an enclosed space,

551
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: in one of those little condos that we were describing earlier,

552
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: and it would be flattened by the weight of the

553
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: animal's bodies, but it still offers ample protection and warmth

554
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: for their tiny young, you know, little rat bodies. And

555
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: when they've got this kind of environment, the offspring are

556
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: generally what's termed here weaned, right, and they are able

557
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: to leave the nest after a certain amount of time.

558
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: But what was happening right, Yeah, about two weeks? So

559
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: what was happening during these experiments with these behavioral sinks.

560
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is where Calhoun introduces abnormal behavior, which is look,

561
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 4: he anthropomorphizes a lot. And when you see this, especially

562
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 4: if you have kids, it's kind of heartbreaking because the

563
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 4: abnormal behavior quote shown by females exposed to the pressures

564
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 4: of population density, includes failure to build adequate nest. And

565
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 4: you can see the drawing on the left of the

566
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 4: diagram of a quote unquote disturbed female not like a

567
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 4: bad mouse or not a bad rat, but instead, pressured

568
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 4: by this increasingly surreal environment, she start quote she started

569
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 4: to make a nest, but never finished it. The drawing

570
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 4: on the right shows her young About two weeks later,

571
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 4: they're leaving the nest, as we use the old cliche appropriately,

572
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 4: but they are not old enough to survive alone. And

573
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 4: this is where the ninety six percent infant mortality rate

574
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 4: statistic comes from. You can also see when says starting

575
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 4: to make a nest, the bedding they're provided with, it's

576
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 4: like these rectangular strips, and in the normal nesting behavior,

577
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 4: it's a hoarder's house. You know.

578
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: It literally becomes what you would imagine a nest would

579
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 2: look like if you've ever seen a bird's nest or something,

580
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: but with these strips of fabric.

581
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 4: And in the abnormal behavior we're looking at like it's terrible.

582
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 4: It makes me think of neglected children because that's what happened. Yeah,

583
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: i'manthropomorphizing anyway. Yeah, it's terrible. And the world that these

584
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 4: young mice who can't survive on their own are entering

585
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 4: is a very violent, chaotic places is hit in the

586
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 4: f in Universe twenty five, a lot of the largely

587
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 4: male population has disturbing behavior at a rate that far

588
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 4: exceeds what would happen in the wild. Rats can practice

589
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 4: cannibalism if they have to. These rats don't have to

590
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: practice cannibalism, but they're doing it. They're super into it.

591
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 4: They're also banging literally everything, sexually, sang everything, without regard

592
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 4: to the normal constraints of reproduction or the normal goals.

593
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: I think maybe that's a big thing. It seems like

594
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 2: the goal is gone now, right, so now it's just Oh,

595
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: I was going to say, do what thou wilst? But

596
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: that's not But that's not even it. It's like it's

597
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: frenetic behavior. It's like it's agitated.

598
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,479
Speaker 5: Ain't always right, And it's not like there's some sort

599
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 5: of hedonistic drive. You know, mice don't understand, you know,

600
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 5: Satanism or the idea of do what thou wilst per se.

601
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 5: It's a a biological imperative that's kind of been flipped

602
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 5: in a weird and disturbing way. It's not like they're, hey,

603
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 5: let's just just go ham and like living like a

604
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 5: weird cannibalistic hippie commune to get you know whatever.

605
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: I think, Ben, you put it really well, like the

606
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: goal the original I don't know, I was gonna, I

607
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: was gonna. I think you said it right, Like just

608
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: the goals, the things that you have as as mouse,

609
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: those are no longer applicable because of the pressures you're

610
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: existing in.

611
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we're using rat and mouse here interchangeably, because

612
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 4: because the trends are consistent across the universes. That's the

613
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 4: scary thing. They're rat in the mouse. They're close enough

614
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 4: that the stories are beat for beat, very similar. And

615
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 4: this like what do you call it? This impetus that

616
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 4: we're talking about when when you're an environment where that

617
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 4: impetus is somehow curtailed or interfered with, we see the

618
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 4: over and over again. We see the population generally goes

619
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: into behavioral directions. A lot of people, like we're saying,

620
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 4: see now I'm competing it, they go, they go ham

621
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, they're almost like the Reavers in Serenity and yeah,

622
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 4: and the other folks are the ones where the packs

623
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 4: virus works spoilers.

624
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so easy to anthropomorphize this and like say

625
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 5: something like they became evil, right, but that's that's not right,

626
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 5: you know. There there's just something in their coating that

627
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 5: no longer applied, and they just kind of went berserk

628
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 5: because like the normal like society, sociological and biological things

629
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 5: that kind of kept them acting like what they are

630
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 5: rats and mice no longer applied, and therefore they're they're programming,

631
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 5: for lack of a better term, didn't know how to

632
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 5: operate anymore. So it just kind of like it's like

633
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 5: they short circuited almost right, well, man.

634
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: And you're it's so it's so confusing to me because

635
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily competing for the food when the food

636
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 2: comes out, right, there's ample food. They're always been dead.

637
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 5: Though, right there, it's cannibalizing the dead. It's not like

638
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 5: they're are they killing each other and then eating too?

639
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, sorry, Matt, I just had to please continue.

640
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 5: That's wild.

641
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is like they could have just

642
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: eaten the food, but there's so many of them it

643
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: is almost I don't know. I think maybe that's why

644
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: it's so confusing to me. You could always go and

645
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: get water, but you got to now like either wait

646
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: in line or fight to go get the water. But

647
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: is this there? It'll always be there, you just got

648
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 2: to get to it now.

649
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 5: Is this the kind of study that would probably be

650
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 5: looked at a bit of scance today, like this is

651
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: a little on the immoral sides or on the on

652
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 5: ethical side.

653
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 4: You can still do stuff like this. It's because they're rodents.

654
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 4: You can still do stuff like this depending on the country.

655
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 4: But also this research, as we'll see, gets weaponized and

656
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 4: used as a metaphor for all kinds of things, perhaps incorrectly.

657
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 4: We do know there's scholarship suggesting maybe this is not

658
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 4: a problem of population density so much as a problem

659
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 4: of distribution of that population.

660
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 3: Right.

661
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 4: So, and we see things like this happening in the world.

662
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 4: There are parts of the world that are struggling to

663
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: maintain a population. At the same time, there are parts

664
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 4: of the world where the population is exploding in a

665
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 4: way that that civilization is not prepared for.

666
00:39:59,600 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 3: Right.

667
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 4: So there's I mean, it gets into this really weird, controversial,

668
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 4: possibly evil math. But we know that we know that

669
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 4: what would happen is think of it like a gen pop. Right,

670
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 4: You're in a jail. You can choose to go into

671
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: your own cell, right, you can be by yourself in

672
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 4: that cell, or you can go down to gen pop. Right,

673
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: where everything is where's party time, but not excellent and

674
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 4: the rats, Calhoun hypothesizes, they began to associate feeding with

675
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 4: being around a big crowd of rats. They didn't understand

676
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 4: that they could eat on their own, which is fascinating

677
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 4: from a very ethics aside, that is fascinating and chilling.

678
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: So these and then it becomes a learned behavior because

679
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: let's imagine you are a successful rat or mouse that

680
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: made it into the general population after me madgusting, you

681
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: watch all of the rats gathered together in this huge

682
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 2: mass when it's time to eat. So you go, well,

683
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: I guess that's that's what happens when it's time for

684
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 2: me to eat now, and then that behavioral pattern then

685
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: passes down as like, well, that's what this is what

686
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: society does, so this is what I do. So yeah,

687
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: this is this is what I'm supposed to do.

688
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 4: Listen here, mouse, son, you'll eat like I ate and

689
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 4: your father and my father before you in a crowd,

690
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 4: ready to fight and maybe eat another animal.

691
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised there wasn't a group of older mice

692
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: hanging on the corner. So I remember when we used

693
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 2: to eat.

694
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 4: I remember that just eight of us in the beginning.

695
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 5: Uphill both ways, uphill both ways, dead all the way.

696
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 4: So he also we should note, as he said, he

697
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 4: had a lot of anthropomorphizing, and you can see it

698
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: in the language he uses, which is purposely chosen to

699
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 4: communicate with the public because it occurs in a larger context.

700
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 4: He calls the dwelling places tower blocks basically apartments. He

701
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 4: calls them walk up apartments.

702
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 5: He was sort of a British parlance, right, tower blocks

703
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 5: like flat blocks. Yeah, we're referring to what we might

704
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 5: over here call projects or like you know, government.

705
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

706
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's kind of how he's talking you. And he's

707
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 4: doing that to draw draw out this comparison to human

708
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: society in the time of which he's writing and conducting science.

709
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 4: He also calls some groups juvenile, delinquents and dropouts. He's

710
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 4: actively inviting us to think in this manner. So it

711
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 4: should be no surprise that human civilization, not just scientists

712
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 4: and academics and ethologists, human civilization in general, learns about

713
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 4: this stuff, primarily through the Scientific American article, and they

714
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: immediately say, well, what does this tell us about ourselves?

715
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 4: And what does this tell us about Thomas Malthus. While

716
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 4: this is occurring, there has been a bevy of academics

717
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 4: who might as well be wearing sandwich boards that say

718
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 4: the end is nigh, you know, ecologist, economists, philosophers, tycoons.

719
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 4: Tycoons love Malthusian thought, and we.

720
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: Do have some good examples.

721
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 5: First off, William Vote and Fairfield Osborne were two ecologists

722
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 5: who warned against the growing population putting pressure on natural resources,

723
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 5: on food, and that was as early as nineteen forty eight.

724
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 5: So people have been like sounding the alarms for the

725
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 5: stuff for a long time and it ain't getting.

726
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: A whole heck of a lot better.

727
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 5: We're being completely honest, and it does feel like, you know,

728
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 5: if we're being dire about our situation that we find

729
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 5: ourselves in or think about what's going to be the

730
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: tipping point in like a big, you know, high water

731
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 5: mark moment in humanity, it's kind of.

732
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: Be a war over resources.

733
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 5: I mean, it's pretty clear that's that's the one thing

734
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 5: that we can't really make more of, and people who

735
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 5: have control and have power is going to start hoarding them,

736
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 5: leaving you know, the lesser of us out in the cold.

737
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, fear filled Osborne. This dude, this is a

738
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: eugenesis is born in the eighteen hundreds, like died in

739
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five, and he was talking about it back then,

740
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 2: and as eugenicist he had some ideas. I bet he did,

741
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: had it takes takes, So you know, it's weird. It's

742
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: a weird thing because it is a cautionary subject where

743
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: if you start looking at this too much and you're

744
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: applying whatever, I don't know what, we would even call them,

745
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 2: your own biases that you've got from growing up wherever

746
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 2: you grew up, and with people you're around, it is dangerous.

747
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, And again we have this oh gosh, you know what,

748
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 4: I'm just realizing, I'm thinking through Osborne was alive when

749
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 4: the Great Depression hit, so he probably died thinking called it. Yeah.

750
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 4: And then in nineteen sixty eight, in the same sort

751
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 4: of social milieu or context, Paul Erlick publishes the population Bomb.

752
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 4: It is polemical, it is an alarmist work. It is

753
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 4: meant to shake you when you read it. And he

754
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 4: says it's common famine, resource wars, the end of days.

755
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 4: So the public is primed to think in these terms.

756
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 4: You know, they witnessed horrific wars, they've seen what happens

757
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 4: when the economic regimes collapse. So when Calhoun comes out

758
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 4: in Scientific American, which is legit publication, they are totally

759
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 4: vibing with it. He says, look overpopulation means social collapse

760
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: followed by extinction. The rodents are not so different from

761
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 4: the primates. And the more I repeat this experiment, the

762
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 4: more predictable and inevitable the outcome seems. By the time

763
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 4: he got to Universe twenty five, the most popular or

764
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 4: most well known one, he had a formula, a death

765
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 4: squared formula, which we have to go into. But basically

766
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 4: he was thinking of the concept of second death. So

767
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: first death being the physical death of an individual, second

768
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 4: death being the larger death of a society. Very fun

769
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 4: at parties, I imagine, But I don't know. That's the question.

770
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 4: Let's a pickle we're still working with. Can we apply

771
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 4: this to humans? Calhoun was certain this could also be

772
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 4: a warning call for human society, no matter how smart

773
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,359
Speaker 4: we think we are, he reasoned, because he did count

774
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 4: himself as human. You know, he's like, I'm in this

775
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 4: universe too, he said, No matter what happens, once the

776
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 4: number of individuals capable of fulfilling certain roles. Once that

777
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: exceeds the number of roles available, basically, once there are

778
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 4: too many cars for the parking lot of a civilization,

779
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 4: chaos reigns.

780
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I.

781
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 2: Mean, like students graduating from elite colleges don't have jobs

782
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: to fill, students graduating from non elite colleges don't have

783
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: jobs to fill anymore, and something like AI comes along

784
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: and fills all those roles.

785
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, Or like the fact that Star Trek sort of

786
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 4: glosses over the fact how they went from a post

787
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 4: work economy after living through a post worker economy.

788
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't put.

789
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 4: A lot of that on the air.

790
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 2: But it's just worked, doubt, you know.

791
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 4: Just worked out. Let's go to the Holo deck, he writes.

792
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,959
Speaker 4: He writes beautifully about this, and I don't think he's

793
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 4: trying to be a jerk. I think he is trying

794
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 4: to present what he sees as the science, like we've

795
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 4: got again. You can read the full paper or the

796
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 4: full article online today and it is worth your time.

797
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 4: But he concludes that when you get to that too

798
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 4: many cars for the parking spot situation, the only result

799
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 4: is violence and disruption of social organization. And he's not

800
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 4: arguing ideology here very important to note because it does

801
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 4: get weaponized by people with different ideologies. He's just saying

802
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 4: when he says social organization, he's talking about the way

803
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 4: rodents usually work, the way they usually self organize, And

804
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 4: now they're doing stuff that is not normal. Social pessimist, Malfusians,

805
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 4: whatever we want to call them, they loved this stuff.

806
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 4: This was to them an inarguable rule of the world

807
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 4: of reality. This was like the law of gravity for

808
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 4: living things. Trippy stuff.

809
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: So I got lost in this article from Cabinet Magazine.

810
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 4: They've got the great illustrations too.

811
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 2: It's pictures of the actual structure that does resemble some

812
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: kind of prison to me when you just look at

813
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 2: this tiny, little nine foot squired thing, I don't know,

814
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 2: a great picture of John Calhoun, and he looks troubled too.

815
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: In his face. He's just like, oh God, just drop

816
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: outnice Haggard.

817
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 4: Also, do you guys remember a while back when I

818
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 4: was living I was living in that place right next

819
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 4: to our old office, and the courtyard of that looked

820
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 4: very universe twenty five to me.

821
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, with the weird like aatrium, the plants and stuff.

822
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 5: It kind of felt like like pretend outside.

823
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we have outside at home. That's what it was.

824
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 4: So look, he is he is perhaps mischaracterized pretty often

825
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 4: because he argued that there were good guys, and that

826
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 4: part of his research I think gets glossed over. He

827
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 4: was very interested in something he called the high social

828
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 4: velocity mice. These were individual mice who responded to these

829
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 4: new overpopulation pressures by switching things up by doing interesting,

830
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 4: very varied behaviors, like they would alter, you know, if

831
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 4: there's a big gen pop crowd at feeding time, they

832
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 4: would move. In the night, they would move when the

833
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 4: other mice were less active or whatever their version of

834
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 4: night was. They would team up and create alliances that

835
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 4: ordinarily would not exist. So he found great hope in that,

836
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 4: and he says, look, humanity is a positive animal, creative,

837
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 4: capable of design. Maybe we can out teck this damning

838
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 4: doomsday prediction for society.

839
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's weird. There's another article from

840
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that's not the Vox article I was looking at.

841
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, guys, The Smithsonian. The appendix. The appendix has

842
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: an interesting article on this, specifically on John Calhoun, and

843
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 2: they discuss or this article, at least in cite it

844
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: so you can look it up. It's titled Space Cadets

845
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:45,280
Speaker 2: and rat Utopias by Laura Jane Martin. So this concept

846
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 2: of space cadets is something that John Calhoun was really

847
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 2: into because, at least according to the article, according to

848
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: other writings about him, he wanted this to be a

849
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 2: positive thing. He wanted humans to look at it and go, hey,

850
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: we can fix these major problems we've got going on.

851
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: Even if population seems to be this doomsday you know,

852
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: on the horizon somewhere, if we're aware of it, we

853
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: can fix all the things that lead to it. And

854
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: why not as one of those fixes, let's focus on

855
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: getting the heck off Earth.

856
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

857
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 4: Shout out to his partner in that letter, Dull Duhl,

858
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 4: I love you mentioning that because he has the analogy that,

859
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 4: as far as we know, the analogy he did not

860
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 4: make but would be apparent to those of us in

861
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:35,919
Speaker 4: the cage today is that he's like a climate change person. Right,

862
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 4: He's like a climatologist but for society, and he say, look,

863
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 4: we're reaching this behavioral sink point, but we're not at

864
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 4: the past. We're not past the point of no return, right,

865
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 4: we can still mitigate and perhaps even repair the tendencies

866
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 4: we don't like. And Space Cadets is really interesting. It's

867
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 4: one of those technocratic, very optimistic think tanks, you know, like,

868
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 4: if we want to get to space, it's going to

869
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 4: take all of the experts we can possibly think of.

870
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 4: You know, let's get the architects, but let's also make

871
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 4: sure we have the psychiatrist, you know what I mean.

872
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 4: I think it's fascinating. I don't know too much about

873
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 4: the Space Cadets to be candid, but I do know

874
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 4: that I do know that he had great faith in humanity.

875
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 4: And he said, you know, maybe the rats are breaking

876
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 4: down because they don't know what to do. The mice

877
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 4: are breaking down because they don't know what to do.

878
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 4: But the history of humanity is a history of innovation,

879
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 4: of deviation from tradition.

880
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 6: And norm Yeah, man, so far, he paused and said,

881
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 6: so far, guys.

882
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: We should point out the what do they call them?

883
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 2: Some of those guys. They refer to them as neo Malthusian,

884
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: like the new generation, you know. And I didn't know

885
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 2: until I listen to that stuff. You should know episode

886
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: that there there are things I want to shout out.

887
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: They did in their episode. They shouted out a thing

888
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: called Population Connection that I had never heard of before,

889
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 2: which is a website you can go to right now

890
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: that is basically a spin off from well it was.

891
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: It was formerly known as ZPG or Zero Population Growth,

892
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 2: and it's this fairly large organization that focuses specifically on

893
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:44,279
Speaker 2: eliminating all non planned births because theoretically you could bring

894
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 2: the numbers of like human replacement, you know that, like

895
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 2: what two point one berths per couple or whatever that

896
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,000
Speaker 2: you know, old thing is that was based on, like

897
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 2: how to replace human beings.

898
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 5: Well, that's downright on American The accidental pregnancy is a

899
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 5: foundation of our society.

900
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 4: Holder. Well, well it's one am you go home? I'm

901
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 4: in love with her?

902
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well again, I don't mean to speak for Population

903
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 2: Connection because I don't know that much about them. Sure,

904
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 2: going off of what their website says, yeah, population connection

905
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 2: dot org and what was spoken about on that episode,

906
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: But it does seem like they were focused heavily on

907
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: empowering people to know about pregnancy, how it occurs, how

908
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 2: to prevent it, and like providing resources basically to people

909
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 2: across the planet. We're not talking about one place. We're

910
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 2: talking like make sure everybody knows exactly what to do

911
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 2: and how to prevent pregnancy until they are ready for it.

912
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 5: Because isn't it interesting how sex said is still in

913
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 5: a lot of ways controversial, Like you know, it doesn't

914
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 5: feel like it's uniformly applied where it seems like, you know,

915
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 5: at that age, it's probably the perfect time to empower

916
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 5: young people with that kind of information. But it's like

917
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 5: it's cringe for some reason, or like parents freaks them out,

918
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 5: But it really is probably smartling, just like we don't

919
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: teach kids about how to manage their money, and you know,

920
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:07,479
Speaker 5: it's weird.

921
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 4: Also, yet numerous studies prove a political, non ideological objective.

922
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 4: Studies prove that when you empower, when you empower women

923
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 4: or people who are able to carry a child with

924
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 4: UH with sexual education, objective sexual education and that fire

925
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 4: and brimstone stuff, then you will you will see positive,

926
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 4: substantial benefits to the society in which those people exist

927
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 4: and their quality of life, access to education, all of

928
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 4: it improves. It's better for everyone. I do want to

929
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 4: and I'm saying that to make up for my crass

930
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 4: last call at the bar joke and you find love

931
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 4: where you find it.

932
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 5: I would like to walk back now, walk back, but

933
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 5: I said it's down right on an American to cut

934
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 5: down on unplanned pregnancies. I say that as a dig

935
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 5: on myself. I was in a committed relationship, but our

936
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 5: pregnancy was absolutely not planned, and I wouldn't have it

937
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 5: any other way. I couldn't be happier being the father

938
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 5: of my amazing kid of fifteen now. But it certainly

939
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 5: wasn't at the time something that we, you know, intended.

940
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 5: But also I very much knew about all the things,

941
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 5: and I was just still kind of a dumb dumb

942
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 5: or we just weren't being careful because maybe it wasn't

943
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 5: like the worst thing that could happen, but we definitely

944
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 5: didn't do it on purpose.

945
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 4: I have a distinct memory now going to personally or

946
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 4: I have a distinct memory. I'm going to shout out

947
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 4: Coach C where I was at the time. Our sex

948
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 4: ad program in a relatively conservative part of the world

949
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 4: was the extra side work assigned to the football coach,

950
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 4: and it had a football voice, and so he knew

951
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,040
Speaker 4: he took us all in his history segregated by sex

952
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 4: I'm sure he had to do social studies at some point,

953
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 4: but he's said they segregated the cohort by the biological

954
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 4: sex or whatever. And so he came out and he

955
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 4: had like one of those old pull down posters. It

956
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 4: was a diagram and he had like a little, you know,

957
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 4: a pointer thingy, and he goes, we all adults, and

958
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 4: someone's like, we're in seventh grade, and he goes, shut up,

959
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 4: this is a penis. But he dropped trou No, no,

960
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 4: he was only playing to the diagram guy. But but

961
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 4: we're saying, you know, again to your original point, Matt,

962
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 4: education and powers, you know what I mean?

963
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: Uh?

964
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 4: And that's why knowledge his power is a cliche and

965
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: Calhoun is onto something when he is just trying to

966
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 4: inform people, and he's been mischaracterized as a pessimist. A

967
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 4: lot of people on very extreme spectrums of social thinking

968
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 4: have weaponized his research in a way that he probably

969
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 4: would not agree with were he alive today. But also

970
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 4: on the way, man, if the afterlife is real, and

971
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 4: if you're listening, doctor Calhoun, thank you so much for

972
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 4: all the fiction you created too, and step with you know,

973
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 4: the crazy real world plans and with that Thank you

974
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 4: so much for tuning in.

975
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: Folks.

976
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 4: We think there's a lot here, a lot more to

977
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 4: dig into, and we touched on a lot of things

978
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 4: that mayrove you may have personal experience with in your

979
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 4: own life, in your own neck of these global woods.

980
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 4: So let us know. Would be very interested to hear

981
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 4: your favorite pieces of fiction inspired by Universe twenty five,

982
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 4: and we also love to hear, love to read your

983
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 4: take on what this does or does not apply about

984
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 4: human civilization. We try to be easy to find.

985
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 5: Online conspiracy stuff on Facebook, on x FK, Twitter, and

986
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 5: on YouTube. Check out the latest stalin of George Washington's

987
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 5: time travel adventures on Instagram and TikTok. We're Conspiracy Stuff Show.

988
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 2: We have a phone number. You can call it. It's

989
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: one eight three three st d WYTK. When you call in,

990
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: you've got three minutes. Say whatever you'd like do. Give

991
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 2: yourself a cool nickname, and let us know if we

992
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 2: can use your name and message on the air. If

993
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 2: you got more to say they can fit in that little,

994
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: tiny three minute message, why not instead send us a

995
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

996
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 4: We are the folks who read every single email we get.

997
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 4: Tell us about Dragon Layer can't believe Don Blue made

998
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 4: Dragon Layer all right anyway? Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

999
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1000
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 2: of iHeart For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1001
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.