1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning into Tech Stuff.

2
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,120
Speaker 2: If you don't recognize my voice, my name is Oz

3
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 2: Voloshian and I'm here because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has

4
00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 2: passed the baton to Cara Price and myself to host

5
00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 2: Tech Stuff. The show will remain your home for all

6
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,919
Speaker 2: things tech, and all the old episodes will remain available

7
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:21,239
Speaker 2: in this feed. Thanks for listening. Welcome to Tech Stuff.

8
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,280
Speaker 1: I'm oz Voloshian and I'm care Price.

9
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,960
Speaker 2: It's Wednesday, which means it's time for a deep dive

10
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 2: conversation with a fascinating person in and around tech. Were

11
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 2: thrilled to bring you a conversation with Jessica Lesson. She

12
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,840
Speaker 2: is the CEO of The Information, which is a media

13
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 2: company based in San Francisco that covers the tech industry.

14
00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,600
Speaker 2: Because just two days after the inauguration, one of the

15
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 2: stories I find most personally fascinating is the alliance for

16
00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 2: now between MAGA and the tech Bros. And it's obviously

17
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 2: clearest in Elon Musk. Have you seen that video of

18
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,000
Speaker 2: him and DJT dancing right away?

19
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:01,280
Speaker 3: It's fantastic.

20
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,240
Speaker 1: This is the robot dance they're both doing on Newye's

21
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:04,319
Speaker 1: Eve at mar Lago.

22
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 3: My first thought when I was watching it was who's

23
00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:07,280
Speaker 3: better thing?

24
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,959
Speaker 2: That is Trump's dance And you see Elon starting and

25
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,240
Speaker 2: then you see Trump kind of shooting him at Lance,

26
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:18,040
Speaker 2: being like, slow down, br that's my dance. But of

27
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 2: course it's not just Elon his currying favor with the

28
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 2: new president. Up and down Silicon Valley, there's this rush

29
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 2: to cozy up to Trump. And eight years ago there

30
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 2: was this amazing moment where Trump summoned all the tech

31
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,480
Speaker 2: CEOs to Trump Tower in Manhattan right before he was

32
00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 2: inaugurated to kind of show them who was boss. And

33
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 2: now all these stories about tension between Trump and tech,

34
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,680
Speaker 2: and now it couldn't be more different. And the coziness

35
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,640
Speaker 2: between Silicon Valley and Trump seems to be getting, you know,

36
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 2: cozier and cozier.

37
00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 3: Yes, it's incredible to it's it's almost as incredible as

38
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg's fashion transformation.

39
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,400
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get to the fashion choices too.

40
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 2: I found just one of the most striking things an

41
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,560
Speaker 2: outside observer of technology is Mark Zuckerberg's physical transformation. I mean,

42
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 2: from the hoodie wearing character of the social network to

43
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 2: a mixed martial artist who also released his own t

44
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 2: shirt line, which have Latin sayings printed on them. He

45
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 2: wore on recently that said out Zuck out Nihil. How's

46
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 2: your Latin Cara?

47
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,239
Speaker 3: Not good enough?

48
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 2: I had to google it too, But it means all

49
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 2: Zuck or all nothing.

50
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 3: I don't even know what that means.

51
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:30,799
Speaker 1: Well, I think it means he's a big guy.

52
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 2: Before that, I want to note that Jessica has this

53
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,040
Speaker 2: kind of interesting personal connection to Mark Zuckerberg. The co

54
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 2: host of her podcast, which is called The More or

55
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 2: Less Podcast, was at Harvard with Mark Zuckerberg and went

56
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 2: on to be VP of Product at Facebook. That co host,

57
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 2: Sam Lesson, is also Jessica's husband. Finally, if I couldn't

58
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 2: have imagined being closer to my podcast host than you

59
00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 2: and I are but stranger things but more seriously, and

60
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,519
Speaker 2: we've got She got a listener email about this. Mark

61
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:07,080
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg suspended the fact checking program at Meta and at Facebook,

62
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 2: which sewed, frankly.

63
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 1: Quite a lot of horror.

64
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,519
Speaker 2: He also added to the board of Meta Dana White,

65
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 2: the founder of UFC and a very close confidante of Trump.

66
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 2: And so one of the things I really wanted to

67
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 2: talk to Jessica about is what's going on with Mark Zuckerberg,

68
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,919
Speaker 2: how much of this kind of change is driven by personality,

69
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:29,519
Speaker 2: and how much of it is driven by kind of

70
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,919
Speaker 2: opportunism and wanting to appeal to the new power center

71
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 2: in the US.

72
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,000
Speaker 3: So I'm excited to get the inside scoop. Jessica was

73
00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 3: originally a tech reporter for The Wall Street Journal who

74
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,040
Speaker 3: was covering Silicon Valley from New York City before she

75
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 3: moved west to Silicon Valley and eventually started her own

76
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:49,520
Speaker 3: site called The Information.

77
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: The clues in the name very much, so it's.

78
00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,520
Speaker 3: The sort of mainline source for news on technology.

79
00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,280
Speaker 2: I heard Jessica on the Daily Beast podcast, which is

80
00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 2: hosted by Joanna Coles, who's a friend and a mental

81
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 2: and advisor of mine. And Joanna and Jessica and Samantha

82
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,200
Speaker 2: Bee were talking about this idea of the revenge of

83
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 2: the Nerds, and I thought I was just irresistible. So

84
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 2: I wrote to Jessica, who greed to sit down for

85
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:23,280
Speaker 2: tech stuff. I really enjoyed your conversation with Joanna and

86
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 2: sam Bee, and you use this very entertaining phrase, the

87
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 2: revenge of the Nerds, and I was wondering if there

88
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,799
Speaker 2: was like a single moment or a dinner or a tweet,

89
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 2: or an outfit or an image or something that really

90
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,640
Speaker 2: sort of brought that moment home to you.

91
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 4: Great question. I think it's really more a shift in

92
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 4: communication style among leaders here in Silicon Valley, who, yes,

93
00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 4: could somewhat be stereotyped as nerds, although the industry has

94
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,720
Speaker 4: certainly grown beyond that, but a real kind of flex

95
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 4: in their communication, often using social media. And I think

96
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 4: Elon must is obviously a trendsetter here. Mark Zuckerberg is

97
00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 4: part of the picture, and you know it's clear that

98
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:12,360
Speaker 4: this kind of go direct to share their message, wearing

99
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,599
Speaker 4: their luxury fashion clothing and so forth, is really the

100
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,400
Speaker 4: vibe shift in tech right now. And I do think

101
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,799
Speaker 4: it's been building, and I think Elon's kind of over

102
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 4: the topness, outrageousness, whatever you would call it, has given

103
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,960
Speaker 4: kind of cover and shifted the window, and many other

104
00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:32,400
Speaker 4: CEOs are following.

105
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you've been at this since two thousand and five, right,

106
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 2: originally the Journal and then founding Information. Where would you

107
00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,919
Speaker 2: say that like sort of vibe shift if you had

108
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,360
Speaker 2: to pinpoint in a moment in time, when did it

109
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:45,599
Speaker 2: kind of start to coalesce.

110
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 4: You know, right now, in a micro sense, we are

111
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,320
Speaker 4: in this moment fueled by the Trump election. I think

112
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,600
Speaker 4: one of the big questions in twenty twenty five will

113
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 4: be will it continue or which direction will it go?

114
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,080
Speaker 4: If you zoom out a little bit more, I think,

115
00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:06,479
Speaker 4: particularly as it relates to politics, tech had been a

116
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:11,279
Speaker 4: little more defensive over the last four plus years. I mean,

117
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,360
Speaker 4: the vibe was very much a very tense relationship with Washington,

118
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,720
Speaker 4: with regulators, with the press, and I think broadly a

119
00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,240
Speaker 4: lot of companies kind of not that they didn't rattle cages,

120
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,640
Speaker 4: but they tried not to rattle cages in a sense

121
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 4: because there's a lot at stake, and the regulatory pressures

122
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 4: were very real with the cases and finds they were

123
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 4: getting hit with, and so it was sort of like,

124
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 4: don't poke your head out too much and draw attention.

125
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,760
Speaker 4: And so I think prior to this very new period,

126
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,720
Speaker 4: we were in a little bit of apologizing defending we

127
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,360
Speaker 4: in the industry, and this is a reaction to that.

128
00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,720
Speaker 4: But I think everything is a reaction to the thing

129
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:51,320
Speaker 4: before it.

130
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 2: You have been a reporter and an editor and found

131
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,400
Speaker 2: an incredible media company covering this space, but you're also

132
00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,680
Speaker 2: part of the world, I guess. I mean through your

133
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 2: through your marriage with Sam and social relationships with some

134
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,719
Speaker 2: of these figures. Is that a kind of complicating factor

135
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,000
Speaker 2: or a bonus or sometimes one sometimes the other.

136
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you kind of navigate that?

137
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,440
Speaker 4: I mean, every journalist has a personal life, and I'm

138
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,800
Speaker 4: no different. But I don't feel at all that I'm

139
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 4: part of, you know, that world of the elite Silicon

140
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,520
Speaker 4: Valley CEOs in any way. I mean, I think, you know,

141
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 4: the information has been scrutinizing the technology business now for

142
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 4: more than eleven years, and I think that's firmly where

143
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 4: my reputation is. Although I hope that as a founder,

144
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 4: I have experience in what it's like to build a company,

145
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,559
Speaker 4: and so that helps inform the storylines we go after

146
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:46,760
Speaker 4: the questions we ask.

147
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,840
Speaker 2: I think sometimes as this feeling from the Silicon Valley

148
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 2: folks that like journalists the enemies and don't understand them

149
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 2: and all these things. You know, you obviously come from

150
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 2: from the same point of coverage in terms of speaking

151
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 2: truth of power, but also you know how to slip

152
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 2: into that register. I suppose in terms of how to communicate.

153
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 4: There are some commonalities. I mean, sometimes you can get

154
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 4: a source to build a relationship by talking about, you know,

155
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,360
Speaker 4: some recruiting challenge you're having that mirrors some recruiting challenge

156
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 4: they're having. But you know, I think there's no doubt

157
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 4: in people's minds, you know what the purpose of the

158
00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 4: information is and what our mission is to be the

159
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,120
Speaker 4: most authoritative publication covering this industry. But it does also

160
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 4: help to have known and covered as a reporter people

161
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,360
Speaker 4: over a long time.

162
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,040
Speaker 2: Let's start with it with Mark Zuckerberg because in a sense,

163
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 2: the esthetic transition of Mark Zuckerberg for me as an outsider,

164
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,319
Speaker 2: has been one of the clearest indicators that like, something

165
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 2: is going on. So and can you just describe for

166
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 2: people who haven't been sort of following his personal appearance

167
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 2: for the last sort of five years, what's changed and

168
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,640
Speaker 2: what it may say about meta and the wider industry.

169
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I mean, I think it's in interesting a

170
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 4: part because Mark has talked about it. I don't know

171
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 4: that I have great insights into the choices that he's

172
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 4: made from a fashion perspective, but I think what's clear

173
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,360
Speaker 4: is that he's leaning in to being himself and I

174
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 4: think that also feels very elon. Elon that you see

175
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 4: on Twitter is you could be having a dinner conversation

176
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,679
Speaker 4: with him and these would be the things he's saying,

177
00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 4: and he's not censoring himself. And I don't think Mark

178
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,080
Speaker 4: is censoring himself.

179
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:31,800
Speaker 2: And so when it comes to when it comes to

180
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,840
Speaker 2: something on the top of censorship, like you know, the

181
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,280
Speaker 2: removal of the fact checking function of Facebook, I mean,

182
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 2: do you view that as sort of Mark being himself

183
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,959
Speaker 2: and feeling unconstrained, or do you view it more as

184
00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,679
Speaker 2: a kind of gesture towards the new political elite.

185
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 4: I think it's both, I really do. I think from

186
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,720
Speaker 4: the earliest days of Facebook, Mark was talking about free expression.

187
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,319
Speaker 4: He has given many speeches about and pushed back on

188
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,680
Speaker 4: on things he is deemed censorship. There's obviously a period

189
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 4: in the whole Internet where many platforms went in the

190
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 4: direction of moderating more and more and more under pressure

191
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 4: from regulators in the media, and I think Mark seesed

192
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,000
Speaker 4: a political opening in a moment to get back to

193
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,360
Speaker 4: where he has always thought the company should be. What

194
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,400
Speaker 4: happens next is anybody's guests, right, I mean, I think

195
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 4: having made the decision to do this, he's definitely striking

196
00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 4: the notes of mentioning Elaw and giving him shout outs,

197
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 4: attacking some of the same enemies that President Trump has attacked,

198
00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,960
Speaker 4: so making something out of this moment. But I don't

199
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,960
Speaker 4: think he pivoted to Curry favor. He's very consistently been

200
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 4: very uncomfortable with the direction a lot of these platforms

201
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,280
Speaker 4: have gone in moderating and even as a journalist, I

202
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,439
Speaker 4: think it's very complicated.

203
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,960
Speaker 2: And yet when it comes to like the Elon version

204
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,840
Speaker 2: of free speech and the Mark Zuckerberg version of free speech,

205
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,480
Speaker 2: most generous feel very ucomfortable.

206
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: So it's a strange kind of paradox.

207
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,480
Speaker 4: What I know is a journalist is a we have

208
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,440
Speaker 4: to fight for the value of professional journalism. Social media

209
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,160
Speaker 4: is not going to reveal the things that companies want hidden.

210
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 4: It's not going to tell you that the Chinese government

211
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,000
Speaker 4: owns a direct stake in byte dance and scrutinize what's

212
00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 4: happening to us users data things that are in the

213
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,319
Speaker 4: public's interest. And right now, especially in Silicon Valley, the

214
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 4: discourse is so toxic around it that tech folks hate

215
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 4: journalists and journalists hate tech folks, and there's sort of

216
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 4: no room to say what if These are both important

217
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 4: pieces of the information ecosystem. Now, of course, how we

218
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 4: combat the misinformation that can spread very quickly on social

219
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,359
Speaker 4: media's a tremendous problem, but I think that is outside

220
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 4: what any one company can necessarily do.

221
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,959
Speaker 3: When we come back, we'll hear about the rise of

222
00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,400
Speaker 3: Christianity in Silicon Valley.

223
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned this last four years of the

224
00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,199
Speaker 2: tech industry having to be very careful around the administration

225
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,240
Speaker 2: obviously Lena Khan and the FTC and stuff. But rewind

226
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 2: eight years and there was that famous moment where Trump,

227
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 2: like the school principle, summoned all of the unruly tech

228
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,959
Speaker 2: CEOs to Trump Tower, basically to Flex's authority. And the

229
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 2: coverage at the time was all around how much tension

230
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 2: there was between Trump and the tech community. How did

231
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 2: that change so dramatically in the last eight years.

232
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think over the last four years, in particular,

233
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 4: the relationship between the tech industry and the Biden administration

234
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 4: really beyond soured, I would say, and on multiple fronts,

235
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 4: from crypto to just anti trust to AI regulation, things

236
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,120
Speaker 4: that have become very press issues for the industry. Washington

237
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,360
Speaker 4: and the industry was really not seeing eyed eye. So

238
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,199
Speaker 4: I think you had a group of tech leaders receptive

239
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,439
Speaker 4: for a different approach, and Trump, either because he believed

240
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 4: it or was opportunistic, really effectively positioned himself as an

241
00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 4: alternative to that and someone who would not take the

242
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 4: same approach on blocking the smallest of acquisitions companies wanted

243
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 4: to do and so forth. And this was really crystallized

244
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,840
Speaker 4: when markind Recent and Ben Horowitz, who had been staunch

245
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 4: supporters of the Democratic Party announced and we broke in

246
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,199
Speaker 4: the information we're going to endorse Trump, And I think

247
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 4: they outlined their thinking very clearly, I mean from their

248
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,640
Speaker 4: point of view, and it was really how on so

249
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 4: many topics they thought it was existential around things for

250
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 4: AI to have a different approach. So the industry was

251
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 4: never it wasn't cozy with Trump the first time around

252
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 4: this time, it seems, you know, in many cases and

253
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 4: not at all, there's an attempt to forge an alliance

254
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 4: and see more alignment. But it is so early and

255
00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,719
Speaker 4: I think it's very safe to say that the relationship

256
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 4: will be a bumpy one.

257
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

258
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,079
Speaker 2: I think there was a story from Maggie Haeman that

259
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 2: Trump has already started to kind of comment that Elon's

260
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 2: around a lot.

261
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 1: Do you have any intel on the unfolding of that relationship.

262
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 4: I don't. I mean from what I hear, there is

263
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 4: a friendship there, so I have every reason to sort

264
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,240
Speaker 4: of believe that. But yes, And one question I have is,

265
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 4: obviously you have a lot of technology leaders really sort

266
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,720
Speaker 4: of bragging about how frequently they're in mar A Lago

267
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 4: talking about their influence. I mean Mark in recent recently

268
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 4: went on a podcast, said he spent fifty percent of

269
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 4: his time since the election involved in some way on

270
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 4: the new administration. I also imagine there are a lot

271
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 4: of people in Washington and politicians who might be somewhat skeptical, right,

272
00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 4: but you still have two different worlds clashing and colliding here.

273
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 4: Time will tell. You'll also undoubtedly have reporters and folks

274
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 4: trying to make something of friction because that's a good story.

275
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,720
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a problem with the press these days.

276
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 4: So I think we'll see, you know, what are the

277
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 4: policies that come out, what are the appointments. Obviously, in

278
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 4: terms of appointments and tech figures who are playing direct

279
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 4: roles in the administration, there are quite a few, so

280
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 4: I think we just have to watch it unfold.

281
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 2: I wonder if in a sense Trump's approach himself with

282
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 2: something of a revelation or point of inspiration in terms

283
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 2: of how he effectively sidestepped the media and created his

284
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 2: fan base and used that political leverage, and whether that's

285
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 2: something that leaders and say they can value have kind

286
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,240
Speaker 2: of consciously emulated, or whether it's just something which kind

287
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 2: of happened at the same time.

288
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 4: I think so the relationship between what now is so

289
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 4: not affectionately dubbed the legacy media by tech leaders and

290
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 4: the tech industry has gotten quite poor in a sense.

291
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you have a lot of media

292
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 4: outlets who have just been out to get the tech industry,

293
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 4: who have pursued stories based solely on the sort of

294
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 4: agenda that they have to show a particular thing. And

295
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 4: so I think in that respect you have some tech

296
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 4: leaders who are sort of rightfully miffed. At the same time,

297
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of very fair, tough journalism of

298
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 4: growing businesses that are having extraordinary impacts on the world,

299
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 4: and powerful people don't much like the scrutiny. So you

300
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 4: had a situation where there was a lot of animosity

301
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 4: so absolutely, a figure like Elon who literally bought a

302
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 4: very important communication platform to subvert the media is inspiring

303
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 4: to the enemies of the press for sure. Now, of course,

304
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,160
Speaker 4: the fact that these leaders then go on and lie

305
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,320
Speaker 4: about the media and create all sorts of animals toward

306
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 4: it that isn't deserved is also problematic.

307
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000
Speaker 2: When you think think into the future, when people kind

308
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,679
Speaker 2: of write the history of this next chapter of Silicon Valley,

309
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,199
Speaker 2: what do you think I'd write about Elon Musk and

310
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,960
Speaker 2: how will they describe his influence on the on the

311
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,119
Speaker 2: culture of the whole industry.

312
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 4: I think the story is still being written, honestly. I mean,

313
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 4: I think from a perspective of a leader being emulated

314
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 4: by others, the impact is real. I mean, I think

315
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 4: you can see from Sam Altman all the way down.

316
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 4: You know, you used to just be the CEO of

317
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,680
Speaker 4: one company. Now everyone wants to run four or five

318
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 4: because Elon does. You know, you used to give your

319
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 4: interviews and now you just tweet at your enemies and

320
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 4: until they buckle. So that's clear. Obviously Elon has built

321
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 4: and is building some incredible businesses. You know, it seems

322
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,360
Speaker 4: to me that he's trying to fashion himself as shaping

323
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,560
Speaker 4: political opinion culture you know, around the world, and that

324
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 4: seems awfully audacious, perhaps as audacious is going to Mars.

325
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 4: And so what's interesting though in this is a little

326
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 4: bit meta, so to speak. But like Elon, the cult

327
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,880
Speaker 4: of people around him will always celebrate him. I think

328
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,399
Speaker 4: people are choosing to believe what they want to believe

329
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 4: and to vilify or celebrate who they want to.

330
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 2: Is this stuff with the alternative foot doutsge Land thing,

331
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 2: the AfD in Germany making anyone in the valley uncomfortable?

332
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 2: I mean, this seems to be like crossing yet another

333
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 2: rubicon in terms of the company.

334
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think everyone here is a little bit uncomfortable,

335
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 4: But there's also the He's going to send us to Mars.

336
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,760
Speaker 4: I say this too much, but everything just it feels

337
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 4: like the pendulum swinging in these days, it's swinging faster

338
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 4: and more furiously. And so to be in the role

339
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 4: of a journalist kind of standing by and watching is

340
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,240
Speaker 4: fascinating and I think it actually is a bit hard

341
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 4: to predict at this moment because so much is at play.

342
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 2: I remember when I used to work for Charlie Rose,

343
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 2: a producer many years ago, and we came to Silicon

344
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 2: Valley to do some interviews in like twenty ten, I think,

345
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 2: and like one of the interviews was at Facebook with

346
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: Mark and Cheryl, and it was like such a traveling

347
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 2: from New York. It felt like going to this like

348
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 2: flip flops, T shirts, green juice, like liberal enclave. And

349
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,879
Speaker 2: now it's like completely in a very very short period

350
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: of time in grand scheme of things flipped. But there's

351
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 2: been some very interesting reporting in the information this feature

352
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 2: that you ran on the rise of Christianity in the

353
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 2: Silicon Valley, which I found super interesting because it speaks

354
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,239
Speaker 2: to a kind of cultural conservatism that maybe also had

355
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,440
Speaker 2: something to do with what we're talking about.

356
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was a wonderful story in our weekend section

357
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 4: about the rise of Christianity in tech and really fueled

358
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,200
Speaker 4: by I mean figures like Peter Teal who have long

359
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 4: been very religious but it being more open about it,

360
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 4: who have anti christ seminars and so on and so forth,

361
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 4: and it's definitely something to watch. The industry now is

362
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 4: so big that certainly doesn't speak for the entire industry,

363
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 4: but it's emerged as a pocket that's quite strong. You

364
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 4: have people going to meet founders by hearing them preach

365
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 4: and then going up to them. So, I mean, based

366
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 4: on our surveys of our subscribers with the information, you

367
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 4: still have the majority of tech workers voting for Kamala

368
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 4: Harris to be clear, right, But there's a very loud

369
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 4: group that's not and I think they're you know, they're

370
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 4: winning some more followers and they'll probably win some more too.

371
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 4: But what's so interesting is they also have the largest

372
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 4: megaphones in society right now. So and maybe the lesson

373
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 4: here isn't Maybe what's different is there's nothing exceptional about

374
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 4: the tech industry right now. The tech industry is now business.

375
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 4: It's grown up, it's big, it reflects lots of different things,

376
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 4: and so it votes less as a block so to

377
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 4: speak on all of these issues. And you know, I'm

378
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,800
Speaker 4: not sure that's good or bad actually, but it's interesting

379
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 4: and we'll have some.

380
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: Consequences when we come back how it all started. Jessica

381
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 2: talks about why she felt big tech needed the information.

382
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,879
Speaker 1: You wrote a piece last year in the Atlantic.

383
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,959
Speaker 2: It was a stark warning to other media companies not

384
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 2: to partner with AI companies. Essentially, even though funny enough,

385
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,919
Speaker 2: the Atlantic was one of the you know trailblazers.

386
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, there were higher ups there who were not happy

387
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 4: with the timing of those two things, but kudos to

388
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 4: them for not interfering because I didn't know that at

389
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 4: the time. I still think these deals are very dangerous

390
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 4: and for a lot of reasons. I think fundamental technology

391
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 4: companies and news and information companies are not in the

392
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 4: same business. They're not aligned. There may be particular partnerships

393
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 4: or getting more eyeballs on journalism, things like that, but

394
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 4: the history of these partnerships is that they've n did very,

395
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 4: very poorly, and that news organizations have diverted time, resources,

396
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,479
Speaker 4: attention focus to placating these partners who, at the end

397
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 4: of the day change their strategy, don't do what they

398
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 4: say they're going to do, not because they're evil, but

399
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,719
Speaker 4: because they're not news organizations. So we saw this with

400
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 4: social media publishers rush to make content for Facebook. Facebook

401
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 4: change its priorities. You can see this down the line,

402
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 4: the same as true Google. You know, it's so important

403
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 4: that as news organizations we control our own destiny, that

404
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 4: we don't align with tech companies, but that we use

405
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 4: tech to better reach our audiences and in particular. These

406
00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 4: partnerships also sought to remove sort of legal issues around

407
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 4: news content and other content that these models were trained on.

408
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: And will the New York Times case be heard this

409
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: this year and twenty five times.

410
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I am cheering them on because

411
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 4: I think to just say, let's wait a second, maybe

412
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 4: there is a partnership, Maybe we can come up with

413
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 4: fair value for this, but we're not there yet. I

414
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 4: think takes tremendous courage and so yeah, to strike these

415
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 4: deals when there is no product, there is no business model.

416
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 4: It's just not possible at this point. And also there's

417
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 4: always you have to read the fine print of them.

418
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 4: You know, there's some headline grabbing numbers, but a huge

419
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 4: portion of the payouts are in open AI credits. So

420
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 4: it's not even that you know, these newsrooms are getting

421
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 4: cash and so forth.

422
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: It's a classic will invest in your company but not

423
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: in cash.

424
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 4: I mean that's not You're just explaining the whole SaaS

425
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 4: enterprise cloud ecosystem there. So we need to let this

426
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 4: play out and come up with the right framework and

427
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: then build the right partnership soft products that actually exist

428
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 4: and have users.

429
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: And just have question on Sam Oltman.

430
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 2: Why back in two thousand and five did you want

431
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: to cover him when nobody else did And how have

432
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 2: you seen him change or not change in the intervening

433
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: twenty years.

434
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 4: Well, I'd like to say there was some grand plan,

435
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 4: but I was really, you know, the young reporter scrounging

436
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: for stories. And I was actually a tech reporter based

437
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 4: in New York. And at the time, all of the

438
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 4: journals tech reporting was out in Silicon Valley, and they

439
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 4: got to cover Google, and they got to cover all Yahoo,

440
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 4: a big story back in the day, and I was left.

441
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 4: I mean, scrounging is not inaccurate, and so everyone who

442
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: got in my inbox got a follow up. But what

443
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 4: I remember from that was also at the time, the

444
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 4: Wall Street Journal didn't write much about startups. I believe

445
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 4: there was a rule that, you know, the paper wouldn't

446
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: write about a deal less than a billion dollars or

447
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 4: something that in a very of antiquated way of looking

448
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 4: I think at business and what was happening. And so

449
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 4: you know, I think my editor rolled his eyes when

450
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 4: I was talking about this mobile thing. And what Alman's

451
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 4: app was was it was a friend finder, so you

452
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 4: could see your friend's location, and obviously that raised a

453
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 4: number of questions around privacy and phones weren't really being

454
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 4: used in that way before with those apps. And so

455
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 4: I think the way I got my editors interested was

456
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 4: hooking it to a partnership with AT and T that

457
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 4: the app was doing. And then also Sam had gone

458
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 4: to Washington to talk about legislation around mobile privacy that

459
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 4: he wanted to advocate for, and I remember he offered

460
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 4: me this his like documents that he was, you know,

461
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 4: sharing with senators or so on. And I think I

462
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: had a light bulb go off about two years ago

463
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 4: when there were a bunch of headlines if Sam was

464
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 4: again going to Washington with his thick binder of proposals

465
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 4: on how to regulate AI. And I think there's a

466
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 4: savviness to Sam to try and get ahead of the

467
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 4: narrative and shape it that was there kind of twenty

468
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: years ago. There was also a savviness, you know, to

469
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 4: working with a reporter to get coverage in a paper

470
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 4: that really was not super friendly or interested in startups,

471
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 4: which he worked with me to do. So I guess

472
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 4: the story, the story published, story published it.

473
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: So you had the first byline in any major press.

474
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

475
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 4: I mean maybe there was some tech Crunch articles or

476
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 4: whatever existed back in the day, but I think it's

477
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 4: quite telling. And as a business reporter, I really enjoyed

478
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 4: watching people, you know, operate for a very long time.

479
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: I think you can learn a lot.

480
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: Why did you leave the Journal to start the Information.

481
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 4: For two reasons. The first was I was very frustrated

482
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 4: with how technology was being coveredwere including the Journal. This

483
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 4: was twenty thirteen when I left, and there was a

484
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 4: lot of hype around companies. It was a lot of

485
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: putting founders on the cover of magazines, and to me,

486
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 4: all of these businesses were going to be very important

487
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: businesses and needed to be understood as businesses. They're financials,

488
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 4: you know, so on and so forth, and I just

489
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 4: thought there wasn't a rigor to covering the tech industry,

490
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 4: and even internally the journal. I'd reach out to a

491
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 4: colleague to try and collaborate on the story and they'd

492
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 4: sort of dismiss So I'm not a tech reporter. That's

493
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 4: what those people out there do. And so I thought

494
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 4: that was just a huge missing opportunity because I know

495
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 4: business leaders are very smart and they were seeing tech

496
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 4: upend their businesses and they wanted to go deeper. The

497
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 4: second piece was business model. Back then, the line of

498
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: thinking was that if you're a big publication, you had

499
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 4: to chase what Google and Facebook were chasing with ad

500
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 4: dollars and go for traffic. The rise of digital advertising

501
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: cause publishers to go crazy for traffic, and what that

502
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 4: did is obvious. It meant we were catering to huge

503
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 4: audiences that we weren't going deep. We were focused on

504
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 4: live blogging announcements instead of doing investigative reporting, and we

505
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 4: weren't playing to our superpowers. And so I knew that

506
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 4: for the industry to have a really successful and sustainable

507
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 4: digital future, digital subscriptions had to be more than an afterthought.

508
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 4: They had to be the kind of true north. And

509
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: no one really believed me. I mean even when we launched,

510
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: everyone laughed. And eleven years later, you can't name a

511
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 4: publisher that doesn't have a digital paywall or subscription, or.

512
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: An executive Silicon Valley who doesn't pay for the information.

513
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 4: We've got a fair number of them, shall we say.

514
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 4: But also, you know, more than half our readership is

515
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: outside of Silicon Valley. Actually, so there is a growing group.

516
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 4: But Yeah, it was really those things. It was a

517
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 4: commitment to the business model and really the type of

518
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: coverage that inspired me.

519
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: Jessica, thank you so much.

520
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: I really really appreciate you taking the time and enjoyed

521
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: the conversation.

522
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 4: Thanks as me too.

523
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: One of the things that I found most interesting about

524
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: this interview is this shift that seems to be happening,

525
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: vibe shift, major vibe shift in Silicon Valley. The fact

526
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: that when Biden came into office, the attitude towards Silicon

527
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: Valley was very different than its feels right now.

528
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Biden hired as his FTC chair Federal Trade

529
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: Commission Lena Kahan, who's actually somebody that you and I

530
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: somewhat know. She was on our previous podcast, Sleepwalkers, and

531
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: as a very young Yale law student, she wrote a

532
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: paper called Amazon's Antitrust Paradox, and this was basically a

533
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: broadside against the tech industry and how previous frameworks of

534
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: anti trust enforcement weren't appropriate to dealing with monopolistic practices

535
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: in tech. And she became kind of a hero in

536
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: the tech regulation sphere and then became like in her

537
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: thirties chair of the FTC and basically made it her

538
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: business to make the tech companies lives more difficult.

539
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: And actually, something really crazy is happening right now, which

540
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 3: is that Lena Kahan is siding with Elon Musk on

541
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: what issue, on the issue of sam Altman transferring open

542
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: ai from a nonprofit to a for profit into this

543
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: sort of as they said on Puck Mega Unicorn. Wow,

544
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: and you know Elon is not about it at all.

545
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's interesting. Obviously OpenAI is transitioning or

546
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: hoping Samilton's trying to transition it from you know, safety.

547
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: Focus not for profit to for profit.

548
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: But OpenAI and Microsoft are so closely connected that I

549
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: can kind of understand why, you know, Lina Khan's anti

550
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: monopolistic practices spidery senses are tingling here.

551
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: The last thing I wanted to bring up was an

552
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 3: article that I read in the New York Times that

553
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: Maggie Haberman wrote about Elon's physical positioning near the White House. Yeah,

554
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 3: and just to imagine in the Biden administration that like

555
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: the owner of a mega technology company would have office

556
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: space so close to the executive branch. Is such a

557
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: departure from twenty twenty. I mean, both of you look

558
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: at Lena Khan as the head of the FTC, but

559
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 3: also just in terms of the relationship between the executive

560
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: branch and Silicon Valley and how they were sort of

561
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: at odds, like especially when we were even reporting on Sleepwalkers,

562
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 3: Like there's real technoskepticism and an interest in regulating AI

563
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: and understanding its effects on the American public. And now

564
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: it's like let's play.

565
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: But by the way, I mean, Biden was close to

566
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: various executives, Jeffrey Katzenberg being one, much of Hollywood. Hollywood

567
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 2: picked Biden, the tech industry picked Trump.

568
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: It's true who.

569
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 3: Won, who has money, That's who won. That's who won.

570
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: That's it for tech Stuff Today. This episode was produced

571
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: by Victoria Dominguez, Lizzie Jacobs, and Eliza Dennis. It was

572
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: executive produced by me Kara Price, os Vaalahan and Kate

573
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 3: Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcasts. Our

574
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: engineer is Charles de Montebello at CDM Studios. Kyle Murdoch

575
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: wrote our theme song.

576
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: Join us on Friday for tech Stuff's the Week in Tech.

577
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: We'll run through our favorite headlines, talk with our friends

578
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: at four or for media and try to tackle a question,

579
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: when did the PayPal mafia become a thing.

580
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: Please do rate and.

581
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: Review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,

582
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: and reach out to me and Kara at tech stuff

583
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: podcast at gmail dot com with thoughts and feedback. We'd

584
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: love to know what's on your mind.