1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: m William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: person and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. He called Texas a place of unpeopled horizons, 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: a land of American bleakness, brazenly adding that culturally, socially, 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: and intellectually, Texas is empty. He also won an Oscar 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: for his script Broke Back Mountain and is considered the 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: most well known best selling author to come out of 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: the lone star state. The late great Pulitzer Prize winning 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: novelist Larry mcmurtury, who gave us Lonesome Dove, The Last 11 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: Picture Show, and hud to name only a few of 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: his thirty plus best selling books. Mcmurtury had a love 13 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: hate relationship with it home state, and often focused on 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: that bleakness, depicting his characters as corrupt, broken, and easily 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: swayed by the devil's offerings. As I traveled throughout Parker County, 16 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: developing sources, building trusting relationships, I began to understand mcmurcury's passive, aggressive, 17 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: brashness for the place he called home. Many of those good, honest, 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: caring people I met, and even those I had reported on, 19 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: felt as if they'd walked straight off the pages of 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: a mcmurchury novel. If I was to find any answers 21 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: in these cases, I would need to appreciate that the 22 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: testimony from those I spoke to and even those I hadn't, 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: was inherently their own, and that a deeper truth can 24 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: often emerge from what is a fractured, scorned, and broken 25 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: space inside of people. And truth, as I have said before, 26 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: is akin to a mountain standing tall all on its own, 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: unmovable and even unshakable. Yet the issue I kept running 28 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: into was getting to the summit of the mountain without falling. 29 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: I can't even tell you. She loved that horse a 30 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 2: lot more she loved me. She spent more time with 31 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: the answer than you know. When she was home, she 32 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: was out there missing with answer. He was green broke, 33 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: So green broke means that you're kind of broke. Yeah, 34 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: And so when she would ride, I would have to 35 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: ride first to get him warmed up and such, and so, 36 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: oh gosh, she love it. 37 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: Hearse what could be more innocent or western? Exemplifying that 38 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: nostalgic image of Texas Larry mcmurcury paint so vividly than 39 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: a teenage girl on her horse under a Texas sky 40 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: on a summer day. 41 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 2: A big memory I have of her is one day 42 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: she was walking the fence line, you know, with Dancer, 43 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: and I said, I hollered at him. I said, Shelley, 44 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: I said, pull him up. I said, he's going to sleep. 45 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: I said, I'm telling you he's asleep. And she looks 46 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: at me. She goes, shh, you know, like, don't wake 47 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: him up. But you know, he could have woke up, 48 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: and he could have just threw her right off. But 49 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 2: everything was okay. But I just had that That's just 50 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: embedding the way she looked and told me. 51 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: To sh as. Janetta says, Ronnie Colliflower bought Dancer, the 52 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: horse Shelley named and loved so much. And so when 53 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: I hear an anecdote such as the one Janetta just 54 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: shared along with how Ronnie liked to sit and watch 55 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: his stepdaughter ride even though the guy was ducking me 56 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: and had acted a bit sketchy throughout the years. According 57 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: to some I spoke to, there is no way I 58 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: can believe Ronnie could have had anything whatsoever to do 59 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: with killing Shelley or her boyfriend. That accusation has no 60 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: place on the mountain next to me, but rather fits 61 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: conveniently into a fictionalized version of this case some have created. 62 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: Ronnie Colliflower raised that girl as if she was his own, 63 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: and her death had broken the man to the point 64 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: where for decades he refused to even talk about it. 65 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: Forgive me for this, but so Ronnie was with you 66 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: that weekend you were gone. Yes, what if some people 67 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: say Ronnie had something to do with it? What would 68 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: you say? Not a chance that he got somebody to 69 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: do it or anything like that. 70 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: No, I believe that in my heart with the a 71 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: Please ask me that I believe that. 72 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 3: Bha. 73 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: That's the first thing, Nancy. 74 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: When a murder wraps a family in a cocoon of 75 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: emotional hell, those who have not lived through the experience 76 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: could never understand the totality of that loss. They say 77 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: the day a child dies crushes a parent's soul, but 78 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: that's not true. It's every day after their child is 79 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: still gone that hurts the most. There's also a physical 80 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: toll the weight of a child's murder places on the 81 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: backs of parents. As you have heard throughout genetic holieflower. 82 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 1: Smith suffers still to this day because of a loss 83 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: shattering every aspect of her life. She's broken like a 84 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: piece of glass. In a similar fashion, Vincent Tjerina Senior 85 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: worked tirelessly every day of his life searching for the 86 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: answers to his son's murder. He did not stop. Some 87 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: say he was obsessed. How could a parent in his 88 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: position not be? The guy badgered the Weatherford Police and 89 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: pushed them to not give up, even as the years 90 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: passed and the case felt as though it would never 91 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 1: be solved. Here's Raymond t Jerina once again, Vincent's brother, 92 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: whom you have heard in previous episodes. This must have 93 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: destroyed your brother. Tell me about that if you can. 94 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 4: Well, he wanted so bad for you know, either him 95 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 4: to find the killers or the police to find their 96 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 4: killers and prosecute him whatever he's been done. And here's 97 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 4: forty two years later and nothing still. But I'm gonna 98 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: say that that's what it was to me, That's what 99 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: it was, sure sim And they all covered it up. 100 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: He was never the same after this happened. Iakin imagine. 101 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: It took his. 102 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 4: Life away him, that it was on his sign, and 103 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: it was sixteen years old, I mean got him mind 104 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 4: it in the time of his time. 105 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, horrible. 106 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 4: Yes, he told him all to hell and it was 107 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 4: not the same. And he talked to me a lot, 108 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 4: you know, he would just try to get some of 109 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 4: the steam out of him and stuff like that. And 110 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: he talked to me a lot every time I saw him, 111 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 4: and stuff. And he came up and saw me, you know, 112 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 4: came to see me and stuff like that, had and 113 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 4: we talked and stuff like that. I kept telling him, 114 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: giving him hope that they will find him, you know, 115 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 4: I will find him. 116 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: The longing and the need for answers eats away at 117 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: apparent like rust on an old farming tractor out in 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: a pasture. I will never stop saying it. The ripple 119 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: effect of murder reverberates like a perpetual echo, generation after generation. So, Vincent, 120 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: your brother h two Texas rangers started to talk to him. 121 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: Is that true? 122 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 4: Yes? 123 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: Yes, tell me about that. 124 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: Nothing was done, and my son hired a private investigator 125 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 4: and the police one in cooperating it all with him 126 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 4: and stuff like that. And so they summoned the type 127 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 4: of friends to come in and investigate it. Because they 128 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 4: kept saying that it was out an inside out, okay, 129 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: what you call it? Police, and they were covering up. 130 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 4: But the rangers came and they could never find nothing. 131 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 4: You know, the police, I'm sure didn't cooperate with it. 132 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 4: Damn with him, that's what I heard. Police wouldn't do nothing. 133 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 4: I mean, we all went and talked to him. You know, 134 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 4: they were not hearing any kind of information all this stuff. 135 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 4: One officer came in and called us in, called me 136 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 4: and called my brother in law, which was married to 137 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 4: my sister, and we went and talked to him, and 138 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 4: they didn't have it. My stink to tailed us that 139 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 4: they just had been who's student, some guy that had 140 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 4: left town. I don't know whether he was around the 141 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 4: place anything or anything like that or what, but he 142 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 4: left town right after that night. I believe he left 143 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: for the Northern States and Ohio somewhere up there in 144 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 4: that northern part. And they were chasing him for two 145 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 4: weeks and then he finally came in and on his 146 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 4: own and took up potty tests and ran it and 147 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 4: he was questioned a lot and everything, and it's determined 148 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 4: he wasn't in it, so let him go. And they 149 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 4: had no leeds of any kind in anything. 150 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: That's what they told us. Several sources told me the 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: person Raymond mentioned, a schoolmate of Vincent and Shelley's, was 152 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: up on Piss Hill that night. It was ten thirty 153 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: pm when he and a family member with him heard 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: three gunshots and right afterward saw a young man one 155 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: of the names I have censored throughout the podcast standing 156 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: near Vincent's car. The schoolmate left town right after the 157 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: murders because I was told his life had been threatened. 158 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: He was eventually located out of state by investigators and 159 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: agreed to take a polygraph, which law enforcement says he passed. 160 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry this happened to your family. Ramon, Yes, yes, 161 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: I am my brother. 162 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 4: He never was the same. He started deteriorating and he 163 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 4: had been discharged from medical discharge from Nolan Me. So 164 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 4: he just started deturating, deteriorating. 165 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: He was young. Yeah, I believe. Here's another Tajerina family 166 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: member you heard from earlier in the podcast, and as 167 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: you'll hear utterly implicit in her voice, there is that 168 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: generational ripple effect. I mentioned. 169 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 5: What they did to not just our family, that many 170 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 5: other families, you know, like Wendy's family, and there were 171 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 5: a couple of you know, young African American boys that 172 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 5: were killed and murdered for no reason. There were just 173 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 5: so many, so many things, and so many that were 174 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 5: not even written about that we know about, that we're. 175 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 6: Missing, you know. 176 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 5: So I just hope that they can stop the chain 177 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 5: of murdering then it goes on over there. It's unbelievable 178 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 5: today in time that they're still allowed to do all this. 179 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable to me. 180 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: Vincent Senior kept the secret from most everyone in the family, 181 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: including Vincent Junior, throughout all of this. He was very ill. 182 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: Then on February twenty third, nineteen eighty six, not quite 183 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: three years since his son's murder, at just thirty eight 184 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: years old, Vince died from complications of a lung issue 185 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: he'd struggled with for years, never knowing what happened or 186 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: who was responsible for the murder of his son. 187 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 5: Because he'd been working in the commercial painting industry back then. 188 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 5: Of course, the lead based paint ended up getting getting 189 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 5: him health wise, but he really warned himself down trying. 190 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: You know, so hard to get information. He would not 191 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: let up. 192 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 5: He was constantly at the police station. He was constantly 193 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 5: talking to newspapers, anybody that would listen to him, trying 194 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 5: to get answers. Even on this you know, deathbed. He 195 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 5: was just like, you know, I'm gonna be with my 196 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 5: son now, and so was everything to him because he's 197 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 5: a great kid. 198 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: Previously on page for Ghosts. 199 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 7: There's a man that worked on that ranch that found her, 200 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 7: Bobby laying there. He had gone to enter the ranch 201 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 7: and that's when he discovered her. 202 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 3: It appeared that she had been sexual assaulted. She had 203 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 3: been bound by the hands and feet. She had like 204 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 3: her bathing suit top on and some shorts on, and 205 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 3: then she had been bludgeoned in the head. And they 206 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: believe it may have been a rock. 207 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 8: Yeah, you're you're spot on. 208 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: We opened up at some point, you know, a hot line. 209 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: I say a hot line. It was just a direct. 210 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: It was my extension. 211 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 4: You know. 212 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: People were calling me left and right. 213 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 8: A lot of it was the stuff I had already 214 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 8: heard before. 215 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: But people wanted to, you know, they wanted to do 216 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: their part. My name is em William Phelps. I'm an 217 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling author of 218 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: dozens of true crime books. This is season five of 219 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: pay Per Ghosts, The Texas Team Murders. Cruising through Parker 220 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: County on a clear day, it feels as though you 221 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: can drive directly into the sky. The flat land and 222 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: horizon appear endless. At dusk with the sun backlighting the heavens. 223 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: Certain hues of purple, pink, orange, and yellow will make 224 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: a believer out of even the most ardent skeptic. This 225 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: tranquil friendly country life residents were used to living had 226 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: been darkened by not one or two murders, but a 227 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: rash of homicides. As the eighties ended, in the nineties 228 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: crept up with Wendy Robinson's section ruol assault and Vicious Murder. 229 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: Just like Vincent and Shelley's still unresolved, the community had 230 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: been scarred forever by the evil nature of innocent kids 231 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: just starting out in life, stricken down in the most 232 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: horrific fashion, and in Wendy Robinson's case, particularly the idea 233 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: that someone law enforcement had bought into Ricky Lee Green's 234 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: masquerade admission heightened the lack of respect already felt for 235 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: law enforcement, and what's even worse, allowed her rapist and 236 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: killer to walk the streets of Freeman with the possibility 237 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: of doing it again. 238 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 7: On July the ninth of eighty seven, there was a 239 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 7: robbery at the Petro gas station in Wetherford and the 240 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 7: person who was assaulted was a trucker. He gave them 241 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 7: a vague description on both people and they did a 242 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 7: sketch of them. So then on November the sixteenth, the 243 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 7: police talked to two women that owned a restaurant at 244 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 7: Lake Weatherford and asked them if they recognized either of 245 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 7: these two people. 246 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: To be clear, I want to point out that in 247 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: the previous episode we focused on Ricky Lee Green, the 248 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: man Patricia Springer, the author investigating Wendy's case, just described, 249 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: is a different guy, Ricky Lee Adkins. Adkins is a 250 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: bony looking dude with a scruffy goateee of peach fuzz, 251 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: close set, dark beady eyes, long hippie like knotted black hair. 252 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: He was a known sex offender rotten to the core, 253 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: not to mention, as they like to say in Texas 254 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: Dark as coffin air, the lead they developed about Adkins 255 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: doesn't come until twenty sixteen, and not until as Patricia 256 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: touched on in the previous episode, Adkins's daughter called the 257 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: Weatherford police and reported he had confessed Wendy's murder to her. 258 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: From there, they backtracked and began looking into Adkins' life, 259 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: And wouldn't you know, investigators had had their eye on 260 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: Adkins as far back as nineteen eighty seven. In the 261 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: months just after Wendy's murder. 262 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 7: They found out that Atkins was in Arizona in custody 263 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 7: on a burglary or robbery case there, so they extradited 264 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 7: him back to Weatherford and he came back to Texas 265 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 7: on November the twenty eighth of eighty seven. Then they 266 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 7: started talking to him, but they only talked to him 267 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 7: about From my notes that I've gathered, they only talked 268 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 7: to him about the robbery at Petro. He has to 269 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 7: see if they could get in to confess that, then 270 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 7: they could get him on the murder. He denied that entirely. 271 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 7: They talked to him twice and each time he denied it. 272 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 7: The third time they tried to talk to him, he 273 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 7: refused to speak to them any longer, and they didn't 274 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 7: speak to him after that. 275 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: I was interested in Wendy Robinson's vehicle, which seemed to 276 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: share a few consistencies with how the Monte Carlo Vincent 277 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: drove was found, including the fact that it was the 278 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: same exact car. 279 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 7: When they went to the wall to see what was 280 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 7: left there, her car was there. It was unlocked, but 281 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 7: her purse and her radio and her keys were gone, 282 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 7: so they thought she had just gone off with someone. 283 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 7: She knew at that point that she had just taken 284 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 7: off and decided to go get a coke or something. 285 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: Remember, they had never found the keys to Vincent's car. 286 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: Ellwood Hohertz is on record saying he thought that two 287 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: cases were linked, Wendy Robinson and Colliflower Travino. Why would 288 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: he say something like that, you think. 289 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 7: Oh, I think probably because both cases about young people. 290 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 7: Both cases were murdered. Although the similarities are not alike. 291 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 7: I mean, they're totally different, different circumstances. 292 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: Entirely based on all the available evidence, In addition to 293 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 1: what Patricia tells me next, I don't think we can 294 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: link Wendy's case to Shelley and Vincent's murders. Adkins was 295 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: indicted in twenty sixteen for the capital felony murder of 296 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: Wendy Robinson. In twenty eighteen, he was convicted and sentenced 297 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: for thirty five years in prison. But that was far 298 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: from the end of Wendy's case, because Adkins then implicates 299 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: to other men in Wendy's rape and murder. 300 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 7: He told me, as I've interviewed him to that Michael 301 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 7: Deadman and Grady Bruce Deadman both raped Wendy and of 302 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 7: course he didn't do any of that, you see, Yeah, 303 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 7: we can believe that, and that then Grady said we 304 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 7: can't leave her alive, and that Grady is the one 305 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 7: that actually crushed her skull with the rock. 306 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: They all put it on the other guy. 307 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 6: They all put it on the other guy. 308 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 7: Now, unfortunately Atkins is the only one who has been 309 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 7: convicted of that. 310 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: The other two are still free. 311 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 7: Yes, it was determined that they didn't have any evidence 312 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 7: against the other two, only Ricky Atkins' word for it, 313 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 7: and they didn't think that was good enough to take 314 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 7: to a jury. That you know, any good defense attorney 315 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 7: would be able to turn that around. 316 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: What do you think of that? 317 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 6: Well, I was not happy about that. 318 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 7: I have a good friend who was a prosecutor in 319 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 7: Terrant County, and I called him and asked him what 320 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 7: the procedure would be to get a special prosecutor to 321 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 7: take on the case because I couldn't get the prosecutor 322 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 7: here to even return my calls. He said, it's almost impossible, 323 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 7: and not with this case, you know. He said that 324 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 7: it just wouldn't fly. And so nothing was ever done 325 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 7: with the other two. I did speak with Grady Deadman. 326 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 7: He's scary out of all of them, he was the 327 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 7: biggest and mean, and Ricky said that a lot. Ricky 328 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 7: Adkins told me over and over again how mean Grady 329 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 7: dead Man was and he was afraid of him. Now, Michael, 330 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 7: who is Grady's brother, the last the police knew of him. 331 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 7: He was homeless and living on the streets in Houston, 332 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 7: now Grady's last I talked to him. He was in 333 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 7: Fort Worth when I spoke with him, he was at 334 00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 7: a halfway house. 335 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 6: He had just got out and out of jail. He 336 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 6: was going into a VA facility to live. 337 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: What do you think? Do you think all three of 338 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: them did it? 339 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 6: Absolutely? 340 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: You believe Ricky Atkinson. 341 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 7: I think he participated. I don't know whether he held 342 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 7: her down. I don't know what he did, but yes, 343 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 7: I think he participated. 344 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: So these three are just kind of bumming around doing drugs, drinking. 345 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: They come upon her and they say let's have a party. 346 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 7: Yes, Now, I think Ricky Atkins was smart enough not 347 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 7: to want to pile any more charges on him, because 348 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 7: his claim was that she got in the truck with 349 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 7: them of her own accord, and that they took her 350 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 7: to Fort Worth to get beer. 351 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 6: Because Parker County at that time was a dry county. 352 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 6: I know Wendy. I felt like I knew her pretty well, 353 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 6: certainly knew her parents well. 354 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 7: I didn't believe that for one moment, but I think 355 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 7: that he wanted to get out of a kidnapping, rap, 356 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 7: capital murder. 357 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: At that point, you're right in Texas, you're going to die. 358 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 3: Yes. 359 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: Do you think they have the right guy for Wendy's murder? 360 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 7: I think yeah, eventually they did. They got one of 361 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 7: the three. There are two out there. 362 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: You definitely think those three did it. 363 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 6: Oh? 364 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 7: Yes, Like I said, I've spoken to Atkins. I have 365 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 7: a stack of letters from him describing everything to me. Yeah, 366 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 7: Grady was gruff enough and scary enough for. 367 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 6: Me to believe that he would kill someone. 368 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: So Ricky described murdering her and everything. 369 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 6: Yes, that Grady is the one that did that, and 370 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 6: how it was done, and. 371 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: He talked about binding her and everything. 372 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 7: He told me that the bindings came from the leather shoelaces, 373 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 7: bootlaces out of Michael Deadman's boots, and that that's what 374 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 7: they used for the ligatures. 375 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: Did that check out with the crime scene reports of leather? 376 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 6: Yes, Yes, they were leather ligatures. 377 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: So that checked out. 378 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 6: Yes, that checked out. 379 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: So he couldn't have known that. 380 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 4: No. 381 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: I asked Patricia about the names I have been censoring 382 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: throughout the podcast. She had reviewed every piece of paper 383 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: in Wendy's case and interviewed scores of sources over a 384 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: forty year period. Within all of that time, I wondered 385 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: had she ever come across the names as being connected 386 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: to Wendy's case, Vincent and Shelley's case, or any other murders. 387 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 7: It was never mentioned in any of the case files 388 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 7: or at anybody that I interviewed. People may have thought 389 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 7: that it could have been the same person, but because 390 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 7: they were so different, I also think that they realized 391 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 7: that it probably wasn't. The theory was that it was 392 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 7: somebody within the Sheriff's department that had done this, or 393 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 7: it had been someone related to someone in the Sheriff's 394 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 7: department that had done this because the crime scene was 395 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 7: evidently very contaminat by the authorities. 396 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: Patricia brings up another name I have heard quite a 397 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: bit as someone being connected to Shelley and Vincent's murders, 398 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: and how this person, right after the murders disappeared from 399 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: public view and became a recluse, which I touched on 400 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: in a previous episode. 401 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 7: It's my understanding, and never left his house after that, 402 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 7: and so that even brought on more speculation that. 403 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 6: He was involved in some way. 404 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: This type of cold case can become dizzy with so 405 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: many rumors, so many names, so much speculation, if you 406 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: allow it to. In my experience, keeping it simple is 407 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: the most productive way to go about finding new information 408 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: in getting closer to the truth. As of the production 409 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: of this episode, law enforcement has failed to produce anyone 410 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: willing enough to step into a grand jury and point 411 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: a finger at those names I have censored. That doesn't 412 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: mean they were not involved. It tells me, within the 413 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: scope of a cold case investigation, that there isn't enough 414 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: hard evidence tying these men to the murders, or for 415 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: whatever political reasons, law enforcement flat out just refuses to 416 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,479 Speaker 1: go after them. Still, every time it felt as if 417 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: I could exclude these guys, I landed on a source 418 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: who changed my mind, and one woman, someone who knew 419 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: most everyone involved, including the names I have censored, steps 420 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: up and drops a bombshell. 421 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 9: I was born and raised in Weatherford all my life. 422 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 9: Weatherford's always been a safe town, and when the murders happened, 423 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 9: it was really it really put everybody on edge because 424 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 9: nothing like that had ever happened in Weatherford before. It 425 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 9: was kind of a at the time, a once in 426 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 9: a lifetime thing that, you know, none of us said 427 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 9: it had ever experienced in our little town. Of course, 428 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 9: Wetherford's a lot bigger now, but at the time it 429 00:27:59,040 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 9: was small. 430 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: My source was in her late twenties back in nineteen 431 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: eighty three. She had heard all the rumors, of course, 432 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: during those days after the murders, the names everyone has 433 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: been connecting to the case, but she didn't really put 434 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: much steak in town gossip, most of which had been 435 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: generated by a bunch of kids at the time. After all, 436 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: people could say whatever they wanted, blame whomever they chose. 437 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: Hearsay is cheap, and it gets you nowhere. But for 438 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: this source, however, all of that changed one day when 439 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: she heard it straight from the Horse's mouth. 440 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 9: I stopped at a convenience store and I saw this 441 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 9: friend of mine that I hadn't seen from high school, 442 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 9: and we were just trying to catch up, and she 443 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 9: said she was going to a party that night and 444 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 9: asked me if I wanted to go with her, and 445 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 9: I said, sure, no problem. So she picked me up 446 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 9: and we started driving down to the river area, the 447 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 9: Horseshoe Bend area, and we got to this house, and 448 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 9: I mean there were people everywhere inside outside, and we 449 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 9: went in. 450 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 10: She wanted to get some weed. 451 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: Horseshoe Bend is about a twenty minute ride south of Weatherford, and. 452 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 9: So we went in the house and she was looking 453 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 9: for him, and I was just kind of sitting there, 454 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 9: you know, watching everything. I'm a people watcher, so just 455 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 9: watching everything that's going on, and. 456 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 10: That's when I saw. I didn't know who he was 457 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 10: when I saw. 458 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 4: Him, but it was. 459 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: There was another guy with him. That second name I 460 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: have been censoring. The same guy others have reported began 461 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: living in seclusion right after the murders. Yet the guy 462 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: my source didn't really know all that well, the one 463 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: connected to someone in law enforcement. During that party she 464 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: was at. 465 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 9: He started mouthing off the thing that caught my attention 466 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 9: because I wasn't really paying any attention to him, but 467 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 9: then all of a sudden, I heard him say we 468 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 9: killed those kids, and that immediately got my attention and 469 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 9: it scared me, and I started looking for my girlfriend 470 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 9: and I said, did you just hear what was going 471 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 9: on and what he said? 472 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 10: And she said I heard him. 473 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 9: I said, I want to get out of here. I 474 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 9: don't want any part of this, So we got in 475 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 9: the car and left. It wasn't long after that a. 476 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 10: Girlfriend and I were working at Dairy Queen there in 477 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 10: Weatherford on South. 478 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 9: Maine, and it was it happened to be one of 479 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 9: those nights we were having a banana split cell and 480 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 9: we sold so many banana. 481 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 10: Split cells that night. We were hot and sticky. 482 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 9: It was so we decided we wanted to go. I 483 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 9: guess it was later in the summer because we went 484 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 9: to the lake and went swimming. And followed us out 485 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 9: there and we were in the water swimming. It was 486 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 9: my girlfriend and myself and her brother, just the three 487 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 9: of us, nobody else, And told us to. 488 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 10: Get out of the water. So we got out of 489 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 10: the water. 490 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 9: You know, we didn't know what was going on, and 491 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 9: my friends, now her brother that was with us, asked 492 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 9: did He said, what's going on and took the butt 493 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 9: of his gun and helped my friend's brother in the stomach. 494 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 10: I mean, immediately a big old well come up on 495 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 10: my stomach. He said, y'all follow us to the sheriff's office. 496 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 10: So we got in our van and we drove to 497 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 10: the sheriff's office and all of us had I mean, 498 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 10: you know, that was back in you know, the eighties. 499 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 9: We wore bikinis when we went swimming, but he we 500 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 9: had towels, but he wouldn't let us cover up. He 501 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 9: made us take the towels off. Then he got on 502 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 9: the phone and called my daddy and told my daddy 503 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 9: that he caught me naked out at the lake with 504 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 9: a bunch of boys. And I mean, after that, I 505 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 9: was just you know, everybody in town was scared of 506 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 9: them because of their reputation, and I was one of them. 507 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: So there it was again the same accusation, But here 508 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: was a witness claiming she overheard the actual suspect himself 509 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: admitting to killing Shelley and Vincent while using the pronoun 510 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 1: we implicating someone else. This is the type of testimony 511 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: grand juries want to hear. A credible witness, uninvolved sitting 512 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: at a party overhearing someone admit to a murder, yet 513 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: nothing was ever done about it. Her story, like so 514 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: many I have heard, got sucked into the vacuum of Weatherford, 515 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: which had essentially been cleaning up this case for more 516 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: than four decades. As time passes. What are you hearing 517 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: about suspects, anything else you're hearing. 518 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 10: In town other than those two, I'm not hearing anything. 519 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: Was there any talk in town about it being some 520 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: sort of love triangle? 521 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 9: We never heard that. The Only thing we ever heard 522 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 9: was that it was a drug deal gone bad and 523 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 9: that had killed them. 524 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: In this case, perhaps more than any other I have investigated, 525 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: motive becomes the main piece of the puzzle. I am 526 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: in search of why, because if you can nail down 527 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: a motive, it will lead you to an answer. The 528 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: one promising lead in the case serial killer oddist tool. 529 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: As I mentioned in the last episode, a serial killer 530 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: who had admitted to law enforcement he committed the murders. 531 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: Was another letdown as tool was ultimately ruled out completely 532 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: by impartial evidence proving he was nowhere near Weatherford at 533 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: the time of the murders. Not to mention, he and 534 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 1: Henry Lee Lucas became known for false confessions, dozens and 535 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: dozens of them. So, circling back to my main point, 536 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: if this is not a serial killer case, and I 537 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: don't believe it is, there has to be a direct motive. Love, money, revenge, 538 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: one of only three basic motives for murder. All killers 539 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: are effectively driven by. To me, after being stuck in 540 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: the weeds of this case for you years, the only 541 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: logical motive feels awfully like what people have been saying. 542 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 9: From the time we first heard about it until you know, 543 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 9: all these years later, I'm still hearing the same thing. 544 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 9: But see, nobody ever knew any other details. People would 545 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 9: go up there to park all the time. Everybody was 546 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 9: relating all of it to drugs. I really don't know 547 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 9: a lot, you know, I wasn't in high school, so 548 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 9: I don't know a lot about what was going on there. 549 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 9: The main thing I know about is what I heard 550 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 9: him say, you know, at the party. I can't imagine 551 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 9: him bragging about killing kids if he didn't actually do it, 552 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 9: you know, And I was kind of afraid of that 553 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 9: family after that. Took me forever to convince my dad 554 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 9: that I wasn't at the lake naked with a bunch 555 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 9: of boys. 556 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,879 Speaker 1: And you think did that because of what you heard. 557 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: Was he sending you a message? 558 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 10: I think he was trying to Yeah, I think he 559 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 10: was trying to scare me. 560 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: I asked my source if any of those names I 561 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: have censored had ever approached her again or threatened her. 562 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 10: No, not at all. 563 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: Ever felt like you've been followed or watched or anything 564 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: like that. 565 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 10: No, because I moved out of weather for not long 566 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 10: after that. 567 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 1: As I dug into the meth trade aspect of the case, 568 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: seeing that everyone I spoke to mentioned drugs as a 569 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: motivating factor in some form or fashion, I developed information 570 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: which quite honestly began to paint somewhat of a clearer 571 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: picture regarding what might have been going on here. I 572 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: touched on this prely, but Ronnie Colliflower's brother Ernest Alfred 573 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: Colliflower fifty six at the time known by everyone as Frosty, 574 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: was arrested in twenty fourteen with ten others, including first 575 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: officer on the scene up at Piss Hill, Robert Hardin's 576 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: son in connection with a large meth distribution ring working 577 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: out of Parker County, an operation run from a property 578 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: just a few miles south of Piss Hill. Everyone I 579 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: spoke to called Frosty the meth cook. Every major dealer 580 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: wanted cooking for them. Frosty was the breaking bad Walter 581 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: White of his time, and I was told Parker County's 582 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: Gus Fring, the breaking bad drug kingpin, wanted Frosty to 583 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: cook for him, but Frosty rebuked his offers. So this 584 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: now gave me a direct connection between one of the victims, 585 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: Shelley's uncle, Frosty, the meth trade, and one of the 586 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: names I have been censoring, the man Frosty refused to 587 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: cook for. Within all of that, a monumental motive emerges. Okay, Frosty, 588 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: you won't cook for us. The first opportunity we get, 589 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: we will show you that you need to rethink your position. Yeah, 590 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: I have no doubt frost knows everything. That's mel Mitchell again. 591 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: She even asked Frosty's brother, Ronnie Colliflower about him. 592 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 10: Frosty was like one of the big wigs back then. 593 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 3: When you know, he's a Walter White of Parker County 594 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 3: when it came to you know, cookie methamphetamy. So Frosty 595 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: was very well connected to all of this and he 596 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 3: would have had his own people work theunneath him. And yeah, 597 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 3: he went out there. He was actively looking to find 598 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 3: out who shot A. Shelley because you know, Shelley was 599 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 3: his niece. So I have no doubt that he found out. 600 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: As Mel started digging around, when she came to Frosty's 601 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: Facebook page, what she saw made even more sense, really. 602 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 3: Interesting with Frosty's pages and he has gosh, like two 603 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 3: thousand people in there. But the highlight though, is it's 604 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 3: like das and investigators and PD you know, and most 605 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 3: time you don't like lifelong dope words, you're not going 606 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 3: to have police on your Facebook page. 607 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: Mel and I decided we needed to find Frosty put 608 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: it all to him directly. Word was that he had 609 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: been placed in hospice and closing in on his seventies, 610 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: was dying, so we agreed it was time to find 611 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: out if he wanted to talk to me for the podcast, 612 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: maybe get anything off his chest before the lights go out. 613 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: I was in the process of doing the same for 614 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: the names I have been censoring, reaching out to them 615 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: and giving both an opportunity to speak for themselves. Mel 616 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: mentioned the name Alan. You've heard briefly from Alan Carter 617 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: in this podcast. I reached back out to him again 618 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: and I asked him about Frosty, and what he had 619 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: to say added more depth and construct to the consistent, 620 00:40:29,760 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: most popular motive in this case. As novelist Larry McMurtry 621 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: once wrote, the hardest thing on earth is choosing what matters. 622 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: What I appreciate about guys like Alan Carter, maybe because 623 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: in some very small way they remind me of myself, 624 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: is how unafraid they are to speak their truth and 625 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: say what they feel. In this business of gathering information 626 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: in ice cold murder cases. You cannot help but to 627 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 1: respect that there are not a lot of those people 628 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: left in the real world. 629 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 8: Okay, the girl's name. 630 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 4: Was Califlower, her uncle was Frosty Cauliflower. 631 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: That was my knee, well, my kine. 632 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 8: And we're cheating because they're both trying to sell built 633 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 8: in the same area. 634 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: So and Frosty we're at odds with each other. 635 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,839 Speaker 4: Ah, he is where it gets twisted. Frosty wouldn't cook them. 636 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but the big ape. 637 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 8: That got out of the car, it's a whole lot 638 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 8: like it, No kidding, Because they asked me who I 639 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 8: thought it was. 640 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 4: I thought it was. 641 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: No shit. Allan then tells me law enforcement paid him 642 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: a visit as recently as late twenty twenty three. 643 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 8: Well, see the top pin in my house here, and 644 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 8: they're accusing me of well, for wong they started changing everything, 645 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 8: and I said, well, for y'all get all hung and 646 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 8: all of a sudden, you would need to understand that 647 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 8: I took a pulley about passed and I passed it 648 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 8: playing colors. 649 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: So let's don't get to assume the thanks here. 650 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 8: Because they said, well, you know it was. 651 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: Said that you and uh the name he mentions, there 652 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: is someone connected to the sausage King, Weldon Kennedy. When 653 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: they came to you last year. They were interested in well. 654 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 8: They were asking me all times of questions about it, 655 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 8: and I told him that one I said, well, the 656 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 8: same gun, apparently the same gun that he was caught with, 657 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 8: the same gun that killed the. 658 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 10: People on the hell. 659 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: So here is a source telling me that one of 660 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,839 Speaker 1: those names everyone is mentioned, the guy who now lives 661 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: in seclusion, had been caught with the murder weapon. If 662 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: you recall from the beginning of the podcast, Alan Carter 663 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: said he saw a dude in a cowboy hat driving 664 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: a law enforcement vehicle parked behind Vincent's car up on 665 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: Piss Hill on the night the kids were murdered, close 666 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: to the time most think the murders occurred. 667 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 8: Maybe you do, but I mean, but I know what 668 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 8: I saw again on the car and then uh, when 669 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 8: I started mentioning it, but somebody said talking on Facebook, 670 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 8: and I said, well, y'all, I need to talk about 671 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 8: you on Facebook and say, well, I's come over there 672 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 8: and see me. And I said, you don't want me 673 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 8: to come see you. 674 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 3: I said I don't like you, and he GOI, well, 675 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 3: I'm coming to see you. 676 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 8: And I said, you better not be caught over here. 677 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 8: You're at your just diction and you ain't got buddies 678 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:24,319 Speaker 8: over here. 679 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: I said, I ain't playing with you. 680 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 5: I said, I don't told you. 681 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 8: And now y'all stay away from me. I'm going to 682 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 8: think you're trying to hurt me. And the reason is 683 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 8: is because right after all this started coming down and 684 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 8: then became the murders and all that. 685 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 4: A lot of the people started. 686 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 8: Disappearing, getting killed, weird accidents. 687 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: All kinds of stuff coming up in the next episode 688 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts. 689 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 8: But somebody told them that me and him we're out together. 690 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 8: Oh man, what I'm here? 691 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 4: He failed his polygraph? I failed, Bob. 692 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 8: That's why when they were asking me on no he 693 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 8: looks like when they asked me that on a polygraph, 694 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 8: I said. 695 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 4: That I pad. 696 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 8: I still thank you cooling, Neil, thanks you strengthly Caldi 697 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 8: with he couldn't stand and see him Mexican. 698 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 4: He is a white girl. 699 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 3: I did tell him. I was like, well, I was like, 700 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 3: through some fact channels, we'll leave it there now. I 701 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 3: did get a copy of actually's on TOOS report and 702 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 3: he's like, okay. So we also found out that we 703 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,400 Speaker 3: were missus balming or you know, shells. 704 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 10: In Pommery for it. 705 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: Paper Ghost season five is written and executive produced by 706 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia executive producer 707 00:45:55,360 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: Catherine Law. Production by toc Boom Productions are audio mastering 708 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: and mixing by Brandon Dickert. The series' theme number four 709 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: four two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and 710 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: Tom Mooney.