Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners, or
Speaker 1: wherever you are in the world, it is so great
Speaker 1: to have you here, back for another episode where we
Speaker 1: break down this Psychology of your twenties. Something that I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us struggle with, deal with, have
Speaker 1: on our minds is feeling kind of stagnant in the
Speaker 1: moment that we're in and in our current life chapter
Speaker 1: or life season, I guess, and that is something I've
Speaker 1: personally been thinking about a lot. The further I get
Speaker 1: into my twenties, the more I'm kind of hungering for
Speaker 1: a life change, And I thought, why not bring on
Speaker 1: one of my favorite podcasts. Is one of my favorite
Speaker 1: people actually who has helped me and given me advice
Speaker 1: even if she doesn't know it through her show, Love,
Speaker 1: Happiness and Success, to share some of her wisdom with us.
Speaker 1: So welcome Doctor Lisa, Marie Bobby, thank you for coming
Speaker 1: on the show.
Speaker 2: You are too kind and I'm flattered and honored that
Speaker 2: you listen to the podcast, and it's so wonderful to
Speaker 2: know that it's been helpful for you. I mean, that's fantastic.
Speaker 2: That's why I make them so mission accomplished.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's so interesting. I was saying to this
Speaker 1: to you before. People always ask me, like, what do
Speaker 1: you listen to, And I'm like, I listen to this show.
Speaker 1: I listened to your show. I feel like it's so
Speaker 1: interesting because I'm sure a lot of people listen to
Speaker 1: this as their source of wisdom and their source of advice.
Speaker 1: But I think also like the advice giver also needs,
Speaker 1: you know, the advice of others, and also needs like
Speaker 1: the note about this as well. So thank you so
Speaker 1: much for the work you do. You want to explain
Speaker 1: a little bit more about who you are, your approach,
Speaker 1: your maybe journey to where you are now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, happy too, so so yeah, Lisa, Marie Bobby Gosh,
Speaker 2: my journey starting in my twenties trying to figure out
Speaker 2: what the heck I was going to do in the world.
Speaker 2: And I went through a period in my twenties where
Speaker 2: I felt very lost and unclear as well. And actually
Speaker 2: we could talk more about this. So my pivotal moment
Speaker 2: in my twenties was nine to eleven, so the terrible
Speaker 2: you know, terrorist attacks. My cousin actually was killed in
Speaker 2: he worked at one of the World Traits enter buildings.
Speaker 2: It was awful, But it was this crisis where I
Speaker 2: was like, what am I doing with my life? And
Speaker 2: it really led me to do a lot of personal
Speaker 2: soul searching. And it was right after that that I
Speaker 2: decided to go back to school to become a therapist,
Speaker 2: which I began in my twenties. I since became a
Speaker 2: marriage and family therapist and then did a doctoral degree,
Speaker 2: became a licensed psychologist, pursued coaching as a career path,
Speaker 2: which has been really exciting for me, and so I
Speaker 2: founded a private practice it's called Growing Self Counseling and Coaching,
Speaker 2: and we have you know, fifty plus therapists running around
Speaker 2: here these days. And also started the Love, Happiness and
Speaker 2: Success podcast kind of as a hobby because I love,
Speaker 2: you know, talking about personal growth and self development and
Speaker 2: one of the values that I connected with when I
Speaker 2: was in my twenties related, you know, with everything that
Speaker 2: I went through, realized how important it was for me
Speaker 2: personally to be of service to other people. And so
Speaker 2: that's why I started doing my podcast. It is to
Speaker 2: like share things and advice and knowledge and put it
Speaker 2: out into the world. And that I mean, so when
Speaker 2: you were talking about the fact that you enjoy the
Speaker 2: show and that you've benefited from it, like, that's why
Speaker 2: I do this. And I can't tell you how happy
Speaker 2: that just made me.
Speaker 1: Here. Oh my goodness, well, I'm so glad that I could.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know encouragement, but just to
Speaker 1: share the love. I guess it's so nice when people
Speaker 1: say that to me, so I'm sure that, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: good to pass that on to everybody who you also
Speaker 1: benefit from. I want to go back to that kind
Speaker 1: of pivotal moment because I feel like that is firstly
Speaker 1: so tragic. I'm so sorry that that happened, But I
Speaker 1: think it's also something that a lot of people in
Speaker 1: their twenties might relate to, having some major life change,
Speaker 1: some maybe not a tragedy, but a major life event
Speaker 1: that kind of puts them onto a completely different path.
Speaker 1: And in other senses, it can also be so gradual,
Speaker 1: right like this gradual loss of self, this gradual loss
Speaker 1: of belonging this gradual sense of like, I just feel
Speaker 1: really stuck in my life. So why do you think that?
Speaker 1: Why do you think we get to those points where
Speaker 1: we realize that we need to change. Is it just
Speaker 1: because of those things, those kind of existential moments that
Speaker 1: make us question a purpose or is there something deeper
Speaker 1: or something more gradual that happens there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I'll tell you a secret actually that I
Speaker 2: don't think has talked about enough in our culture, is
Speaker 2: that the reason we all grow is not despite the
Speaker 2: challenges and the hard times that we go through, it's
Speaker 2: really because of them. I'm a big believer in that
Speaker 2: we really kind of need to make contact with our
Speaker 2: dark emotions and because that's like where a lot of
Speaker 2: our inner wisdom really is. And it's only when you
Speaker 2: go through something challenging. If it's a crisis like a
Speaker 2: building blowing up in a terrorist attack, that would be
Speaker 2: one example, but also there it really is a crisis.
Speaker 2: When you get to this place in your life and
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know who I am or what
Speaker 2: I want or what I'm doing. Like to really like
Speaker 2: recognize that and sit with those feelings, it brings up
Speaker 2: a lot of pain, and that too can be its
Speaker 2: own kind of crisis that can catalyze a lot of
Speaker 2: really important growth work and personal development. I think people
Speaker 2: that are just kind of happy to be here and
Speaker 2: bopping along and feeling good, they don't they don't get
Speaker 2: to do that, they don't have a reason to do that.
Speaker 2: And so I think the shift comes and really like
Speaker 2: appreciating the hard times for what they are, which are
Speaker 2: these fantastic opportunities that often go unrecognized. You know, we
Speaker 2: try to make it go away rather than understanding them
Speaker 2: for the guests they are. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. It reminds me of this
Speaker 1: quote my mum always says to me, which is you
Speaker 1: can either choose to be comfortable, you can choose to grow.
Speaker 1: And so it's in those moments of yeah, in those
Speaker 1: moments of the greatest discomfort, that we find ourselves changing
Speaker 1: the most for the beta. But I still think that
Speaker 1: it's really difficult when when you get to that point
Speaker 1: and you're like, it's in interesting what you said. There
Speaker 1: are some people who are happy to just kind of
Speaker 1: go with the flow and happy to go along with
Speaker 1: the status quo. I'm sure that the people listening to
Speaker 1: this and perhaps not those people, and perhaps facing a
Speaker 1: lot of confusion. How do you navigate that? How do
Speaker 1: you navigate feeling simultaneously quite stuck and also wanting more
Speaker 1: for yourself? Like, what are some of the steps to
Speaker 1: move into that next chapter of your life when you
Speaker 1: realize that perhaps you are unhappy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question, and it's a multi
Speaker 2: layered answer, because I want to be honest with you
Speaker 2: and your listeners, and so to not give some trait
Speaker 2: like thing that I mean, the truth really is that,
Speaker 2: first of all, it requires a period of exploration in
Speaker 2: order to understand what is at the core of the
Speaker 2: happiness and dissatisfaction, and that in itself can be difficult
Speaker 2: to wrap your arms around sometimes, you know, like the
Speaker 2: sort of nebulous dissatisfaction that being able to get clarity
Speaker 2: and articulate what it's attached to, and so like that's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why it can be helpful either
Speaker 2: to talk to a therapist or also like just to
Speaker 2: do some journaling is to get under your own hood
Speaker 2: and like what is going on? Is it something that
Speaker 2: I'm doing that I actually don't like that much? Is
Speaker 2: it something that I'm not doing like I am. I
Speaker 2: missing something that I wish was here. But that's really
Speaker 2: the first chapter is just beginning to get clarity around
Speaker 2: who you are, what you want, and like naming the
Speaker 2: pain points. Once that's clear, then you can begin to
Speaker 2: develop a vision of a life that had the changes
Speaker 2: that we're in alignment with how you imagine you know
Speaker 2: things would be for you to feel happier. But that
Speaker 2: growth can also go in a different direction too, that
Speaker 2: I'm happy to share more about if it would be helpful.
Speaker 2: The other thing there are two pieces of this. One
Speaker 2: piece is that sometimes the reason we feel dissatisfied is
Speaker 2: that we're living a life that is not really in
Speaker 2: alignment with who we are, what our values are, what
Speaker 2: we want, and it's important to understand that so that
Speaker 2: you can make a plan to change your life circumstances
Speaker 2: so that it's more congruent with who you are and
Speaker 2: what you really want. That's kind of door number one.
Speaker 2: The other thing that is also true is that many
Speaker 2: times it's not our life circumstances at all that are
Speaker 2: leading to our feeling unhappy or dissatisfied. It's more about
Speaker 2: how we are functioning on the inside. So that if
Speaker 2: we don't do that internal work, it doesn't matter how
Speaker 2: differently your life changes in terms of the day to day,
Speaker 2: because you're still going to feel the same way you
Speaker 2: do right now.
Speaker 1: I honestly really relate to that. I feel like I've
Speaker 1: had points where I've felt that if I just changed
Speaker 1: something about my circumstances, everything else will fall into place.
Speaker 1: I moved to Sydney with that belief where I was like,
Speaker 1: all Right, the source of all my problems is this
Speaker 1: town that I'm living in, and if I just change
Speaker 1: my environment, I'm going to change everything else that comes
Speaker 1: with it. And you realize that your problems do change,
Speaker 1: do not leave you if you think that you're leaving
Speaker 1: them behind, like they are so much more internal than
Speaker 1: they are external. Can you explain that a little bit
Speaker 1: more in terms of like how to manage that? Because
Speaker 1: I feel like the first option there to realize that
Speaker 1: you're dissatisfied because it doesn't match the vision of your life,
Speaker 1: engage in some of that exploration and find something perhaps
Speaker 1: more purposeful that, although it is still difficult, feels like
Speaker 1: the simpler path. Yeah, But that second path of being like,
Speaker 1: actually there is something internally that is making you realize
Speaker 1: that you are dissatisfied and unfulfilled and creating all of
Speaker 1: these other, like secondary mental consequences. That sounds like such amaze.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it absolutely is. And it's so easy for all
Speaker 2: of us to get tricked into believing that, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll be happy when I have a different career, I
Speaker 2: live in a different place, or I'll be it a relationship,
Speaker 2: or you know, meet some health goal. Right, And this
Speaker 2: was actually researched pretty extensively Martin Seligman. He was a
Speaker 2: past president of APA and he's the one of the
Speaker 2: thought leaders around the school of psychology called positive psychology,
Speaker 2: and he identified this a long time ago, and he
Speaker 2: called it the hedonic treadmill. And so what it is
Speaker 2: is this belief that you know, we all pursue these
Speaker 2: goals or these changes or these circumstances, getting the career
Speaker 2: or the house or a new car or whatever, and
Speaker 2: then arrive at whatever, you know, the top of that
Speaker 2: mountain was, and discover that we feel pretty much the
Speaker 2: same way that we did before we achieved whatever those
Speaker 2: goals were. And now it's absolutely valuable to design a
Speaker 2: life that you want to live in, right, And pursue
Speaker 2: circumstances and life experiences that you feel good about. Nobody's
Speaker 2: mad at that. But the work that we're talking about
Speaker 2: now is really getting under the hood to understand why
Speaker 2: your sort of emotional thermostat is set at this kind
Speaker 2: of constant level. No matter what. That work requires understanding
Speaker 2: a number of different things. How you're talking to yourself
Speaker 2: has a lot to do with it, Like the kind
Speaker 2: of relationship that you're having with yourself, your inner dialogue
Speaker 2: can be a big piece of that. Also, I think
Speaker 2: managing your expectations for who you are and like what
Speaker 2: life is supposed to feel like is a big piece
Speaker 2: of that. And I think, you know, especially on the
Speaker 2: theme of your podcast, I mean the psychology of your twenties.
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of us and I certainly
Speaker 2: had this when I was in my twenties, have these
Speaker 2: ideas about the way things are supposed to be or
Speaker 2: like how other people feel like happier better than I do.
Speaker 2: And I think it takes a while to arrive at
Speaker 2: the fact that a lot of life is pretty you know,
Speaker 2: we have ups and downs, and to feel kind of
Speaker 2: average or neutral a lot of the time is actually
Speaker 2: normal and when people are thinking that they should be
Speaker 2: feeling differently than life is. Actually life can make them
Speaker 2: worry that something is wrong. You see this with people
Speaker 2: in long term relationships or dating, or you know, in
Speaker 2: a career. And I think there's a lot of actually
Speaker 2: long term satisfaction and inner piece that comes from embracing
Speaker 2: the fact that all of life is kind of a
Speaker 2: mixed bag, and that peak experiences can happen and we
Speaker 2: can have moments of joy, but a lot of life
Speaker 2: is just fairly neutral. So then the work becomes how
Speaker 2: to find gratitude and meeting and appreciation and satisfaction in
Speaker 2: the things that are really pretty ordinary, because the anxiety
Speaker 2: that like something is wrong is one of the things
Speaker 2: that will reliably make you feel dissatisfied no matter what.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that social comparison as well, I guess
Speaker 1: like I think that is the biggest thefe of joy
Speaker 1: of people in our twenties, and I hear it all
Speaker 1: the time. We have this constant source of comparison being
Speaker 1: social media, where I can look online and see someone's
Speaker 1: impeccable highlight reel of all of the best moments of
Speaker 1: their life and the blanks those days that they don't
Speaker 1: feel great and not filled in, and sometimes I know
Speaker 1: that I'm guilty of doing this as well. Like I
Speaker 1: was telling you, I've been quite ill these last few weeks.
Speaker 1: There's nothing really going on in my camera role or
Speaker 1: my life right now. Like I'm not going to big events.
Speaker 1: I'm not celebrating career milestones. I'm not partying or anything
Speaker 1: like that. I'm just in like a bit of a
Speaker 1: rut stage, like a bit of a flag stage, and
Speaker 1: I'm not posting about that online. I'm not giving people
Speaker 1: the candid side of things. And I think that that
Speaker 1: is so spot on what you just said, of looking
Speaker 1: of that false belief that everyone else is happier than us,
Speaker 1: that something should be a certain way is really rubbing
Speaker 1: us avout ability to be deeply satisfied in what we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree, because you know, there's so
Speaker 2: much image management and the things that go out into
Speaker 2: the world versus the reality of what day to day
Speaker 2: life is actually like and how you know, just maddening
Speaker 2: and frustrating. It could be some example, right if you
Speaker 2: look at my social media stuff, there's reels and like
Speaker 2: the business and the podcast giving people advice, like I
Speaker 2: know what I'm doing, and just this morning trying to
Speaker 2: order pizzas online. I have people coming over later today
Speaker 2: for Halloween. Couldn't find my bank card anywhere. And then
Speaker 2: when I did try to use the bank card, it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, I had to move money to the debit account.
Speaker 2: It's like just all these tiny little frustrations. And then
Speaker 2: like I hadn't put the laundry away, so I couldn't
Speaker 2: find the sweater that I wanted to wear. It's just
Speaker 2: one thing after another, right, and these are all like
Speaker 2: little minor irritations. But I was like that, and none
Speaker 2: of that goes out into the world. And so even
Speaker 2: for me, like I've been working on this stuff for
Speaker 2: twenty years, and I'm thinking, why am I getting so
Speaker 2: stressed out about all this stuff? And like my house
Speaker 2: is a wreck, I can't find anything, and just blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah, and really like feeling so annoyed,
Speaker 2: and then had to like talk myself down, use all
Speaker 2: these skills, like shift my thoughts to a better feeling
Speaker 2: place so that I could go into work, you know,
Speaker 2: and have a reasonably nice day. But it's so easy
Speaker 2: to go down that rabbit hole of like what is
Speaker 2: wrong with me? And especially when it comes to relationships.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Like I can't tell you how many
Speaker 2: clients I've worked with that you know, they've they've been single,
Speaker 2: they want to partner, They get into a relationship, you know,
Speaker 2: they meet a nice person who is annoying and disappointing
Speaker 2: in their own ways, and just like this, You know,
Speaker 2: everybody's a mixed bag like this is. You're gonna have
Speaker 2: some of these experiences in every relationship, but there's some
Speaker 2: you know, perfectionistic ideal in their mind that makes them
Speaker 2: feel so badly about the relationship or the life that
Speaker 2: they have. It's hard.
Speaker 1: Oh I can imagine that so hard. It's something I've
Speaker 1: actually encountered where I've I'm in a long term relationship now,
Speaker 1: but when we first started dating, I was like, why
Speaker 1: does this feel boring? Like this? And it felt so
Speaker 1: safe that I was like, this feels boring. Everyone's told
Speaker 1: me that there needs to be this like insane intimacy
Speaker 1: and passion and chemistry chemistry, and I was like yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was like, there is chemistry and there's compatibility,
Speaker 1: but this person is not like making me run on
Speaker 1: a treadmill for their affection. That's what I feel like
Speaker 1: is exciting. I feel like I've gone off on a
Speaker 1: tangent because I'm just like lapping up your words here.
Speaker 2: But it's probably my fault.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: I love for going off on random tangents. So welcome
Speaker 2: to my world.
Speaker 1: So am I. I feel like that we're matchma in heaven.
Speaker 1: But I feel like to bring it back to that
Speaker 1: idea of starting that next chapter in your life, perhaps
Speaker 1: that first the first way to do that is to
Speaker 1: appreciate or to gain a more realistic view of what
Speaker 1: life actually is. And that's not to say that life
Speaker 1: isn't going to be full of surprises and full of
Speaker 1: excitement and full of amazing moments, but that that is
Speaker 1: not going to be happening all of the time. Like
Speaker 1: changing something external about your life isn't going to suddenly
Speaker 1: remove what is the deepest satisfaction from self comparison or
Speaker 1: social comparison, or from unrealistic expectations about how you should
Speaker 1: be feeling on a day to day. So I feel
Speaker 1: like that's our first collective tip on moving toward the
Speaker 1: next chapter.
Speaker 2: Well, and even to add to that is to end
Speaker 2: that work of wanting a new chapter to get under
Speaker 2: our hood of doing some journaling, talking to a counselor
Speaker 2: or a coach around what are my themes? What have
Speaker 2: been the patterns and the repeating experiences that I've had
Speaker 2: in all of these different chapters that I've had so far,
Speaker 2: because that can give you insight into some of those
Speaker 2: inner changes that we need to make in order to
Speaker 2: have an actually different experience in the next chapter that
Speaker 2: we want to create.
Speaker 1: What are some of those themes, because I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of some in my own life that I'm getting stuck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well, I mean themes could include feeling persistently
Speaker 2: dissatisfied in relationships and having this grass is Greener thing
Speaker 2: going on, you know, no matter who you're with, And
Speaker 2: so the patterns would be ending relationships with perfectly nice
Speaker 2: people because you don't feel the chemistry or you're not
Speaker 2: having like this next level experience that you think that
Speaker 2: you're going to have, changing jobs or moving like I
Speaker 2: think when you've cycled through what you were talking about,
Speaker 2: like moving to Sydney, and like, I've made all these
Speaker 2: changes and why do I still feel the same way?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: That can help give insight into what's really going on.
Speaker 2: Let's see what would be examples of other themes, you know,
Speaker 2: the day to day things that stress you out, like
Speaker 2: your kind of how do I usually feel on the inside.
Speaker 2: If you can quantify those and articulate them, that helps
Speaker 2: you understand what the next chapter could really involve. That
Speaker 2: would be a substantial change. So, like an example in
Speaker 2: my own life, as you may have inferred from the
Speaker 2: previous story about not being able to find the debit
Speaker 2: card and the laundry still isn't put away.
Speaker 1: But I.
Speaker 2: Am a lifelong individual of who has an ADHD. I
Speaker 2: didn't know that when I was younger, in my twenties.
Speaker 2: I had no idea that that's part of what was
Speaker 2: going on for me. And being able was in my
Speaker 2: thirties actually like finally connecting those dots. But I had
Speaker 2: to go through a period of time where all of
Speaker 2: these different chapters of my life, the common theme was
Speaker 2: feeling disorganized, feeling kind of chaotic, feeling like, you know,
Speaker 2: not really showing up in the way that I wanted to.
Speaker 2: And so it was really funny, Okay, what's the common
Speaker 2: theme here? Wasn't It wasn't the environment. What's happening in
Speaker 2: terms of my practices and ways of being that's contributing
Speaker 2: to me having these experiences over and over and over again,
Speaker 2: and obviously still a work in progress, but like being
Speaker 2: able to identify the kinds of systems or practices that
Speaker 2: can help us be more of what we want to
Speaker 2: be and how feel more of how we want to
Speaker 2: feel is really the long term solution when it comes
Speaker 2: to designing that new chapter that's based on the outcomes
Speaker 2: you want to have.
Speaker 1: That makes so much sense. I also feel like i've
Speaker 1: I'm really sitting here being like, oh, I need to
Speaker 1: probably identify my themes because that one of moving is
Speaker 1: incredibly relevant to me. Like any yeah, I always get this.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's interesting. I came into this really
Speaker 1: wanting to talk to you about this, you know, starting
Speaker 1: this new chapter in life, because I was like, ah,
Speaker 1: I'm considering moving, and then you said what are the themes?
Speaker 1: And I was like, ah, every time I start to
Speaker 1: feel a little bit stagnant or bored, I immediately am like,
Speaker 1: you know what's gonna make me feel better? Move a move.
Speaker 1: I'm like, because nothing is more exciting in life, more
Speaker 1: of a challenge than a move. It's like, how can
Speaker 1: life be boring when you have to, when you try
Speaker 1: to make new friends, when you're discovering a completely novel environment,
Speaker 1: when you're you know, building a new life, decorating a
Speaker 1: new home, like all of those things. And so I've
Speaker 1: really had I'm sitting back and thinking about it. In
Speaker 1: some cases though, I do think that we do need
Speaker 1: to take risks like that. Yeah, Like there are moments
Speaker 1: where it's like, it might actually be that there is
Speaker 1: something in your external life that is not right for
Speaker 1: you right It might it might be that you are
Speaker 1: working a job or in a career that is deeply unfulfilling,
Speaker 1: and you've always had this sense of I want to
Speaker 1: do something more, I want to do something different. Maybe
Speaker 1: I want to do something more creative. How do we
Speaker 1: approach that to know that that is actually what we
Speaker 1: want to do versus what we feel like will make
Speaker 1: us happier. I think that our approach to risks in
Speaker 1: that sense, I always promote risk taking, not like jumping
Speaker 1: off a bridge or whatever, but like risk taking in
Speaker 1: the sense that, like, it's better to do the thing
Speaker 1: than to not do the thing, You'll minimize regret in
Speaker 1: the future. Is that always the case when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about big life changes.
Speaker 2: Say this like a true therapist. It depends, I absolutely,
Speaker 2: I mean to have the confidence and the courage to
Speaker 2: take risks in service of you know, your goals, your values,
Speaker 2: the life you want. I completely agree with that, and
Speaker 2: I think there, for me, from my perspective, no bigger
Speaker 2: regret than not doing something that you wanted to do.
Speaker 2: And especially you know, talking with people sometimes at the
Speaker 2: end of their lives, that's what they talk about. Aren't
Speaker 2: the things they did, It was the things that they
Speaker 2: didn't do. So I think there's a lot of wisdom
Speaker 2: in that. I also think that you really touched on
Speaker 2: something important though, which is this theme, this pattern of
Speaker 2: how do I know if I'm taking a risk that
Speaker 2: is going to get me to a different place where
Speaker 2: I will feel differently and I'll finally feel more satisfied,
Speaker 2: or whether or not I'm you know, putting myself into
Speaker 2: a new situation with these false expectations that it's the
Speaker 2: circumstances that are going to change the way I feel.
Speaker 2: And so obviously I don't want to start unpacking your
Speaker 2: stuff here on your podcast in front of all of
Speaker 2: your listeners, but well, questions, I would you know encourage
Speaker 2: everybody to be think about, thinking about, or doing some
Speaker 2: journaling about is what do I imagine would be different
Speaker 2: for me if I lived in a different town or
Speaker 2: a different career, for example, and be specific, you know,
Speaker 2: like how would I be feeling and why? And as
Speaker 2: you're asking yourself those questions, be thinking about is this
Speaker 2: connected to my values or my meaning? And why am
Speaker 2: I attaching it to this specific career or relationship or
Speaker 2: location that I might be moving to. And the real
Speaker 2: power question is what would need to be different about
Speaker 2: the way I was showing up here and now if
Speaker 2: I wanted to feel this way right this very second
Speaker 2: to begin to differentiate? Like am I chasing a false
Speaker 2: idea and missing the opportunity for growing in place? I
Speaker 2: see this oftentimes in people who change careers. Right they've
Speaker 2: decided that there's something about their job or their employer
Speaker 2: or whatever that doesn't feel good for them anymore. And
Speaker 2: sometimes legitimately that's true. They have better opportunities elsewhere, so godspeed,
Speaker 2: go do that. But when people just get out of
Speaker 2: one job and into another without really growing in place
Speaker 2: and thinking about what is actually going on with me
Speaker 2: that I'm feeling so stressed out about my job. They
Speaker 2: don't get to uncover the fact that maybe it's difficult
Speaker 2: for them to manage their time effectively or set boundaries
Speaker 2: or organize their work in a way to be effective.
Speaker 2: But they don't look at how they're operating in their job.
Speaker 2: They attach it to the job itself, and in doing so,
Speaker 2: lose a really great opportunity for personal growth.
Speaker 1: I also feel like it's this fear of a sense
Speaker 1: of stagnation as well, fear of a sense of am
Speaker 1: I going to waste my life doing this thing? Am
Speaker 1: I going to waste my life in this job? Am
Speaker 1: I going to waste my life in this relationship? Am
Speaker 1: I going to waste my life in this city around
Speaker 1: these people? And it's that fear of I think it's
Speaker 1: almost like existential dread of being like I understand, and
Speaker 1: I'm I guess we as a collective understand that we
Speaker 1: really only get one life based on your beliefs, That's
Speaker 1: what I've If you get one life, you have to
Speaker 1: live it as best as you can. And I think
Speaker 1: sometimes being so fearful that we're not living it as
Speaker 1: best as we can actually creates patterns of behavior. As
Speaker 1: you were saying that maybe a form of self sabotage, right,
Speaker 1: actually undermining our true sense of purpose, our true vision,
Speaker 1: our true dedication to our actual selves because we're pursuing
Speaker 1: a different version of us that has been created by fear,
Speaker 1: like a fear of not doing enough, a fear of
Speaker 1: missing out. How do we how do we approach that
Speaker 1: with balance? The balance of Like, yes, taking risks is
Speaker 1: part of how I see my life, for example, like
Speaker 1: going and doing a bunch of solo travel is something
Speaker 1: that I see is integral to my life. Hiking Everest
Speaker 1: is one of my biggest life goals. Or yes, I
Speaker 1: do want to, you know, move to a new city
Speaker 1: where I know no body. How can we manage both
Speaker 1: of those needs? The need to firstly have a stable
Speaker 1: sense of self and do that self work of Like
Speaker 1: maybe this is internal versus the need to also push
Speaker 1: beyond our comfort zone in ways that might leave us
Speaker 1: feeling perhaps more lost, or might make us feel more content.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Like do you understand this balance
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to really get to?
Speaker 2: I do I do? How to? I think what you're
Speaker 2: saying it's like almost how to know what to trust?
Speaker 2: And like, what is the path that would help you,
Speaker 2: you know, And so I guess what I would be
Speaker 2: thinking about is drilling down into the values that are
Speaker 2: defining your sense of what is important. Like you taught
Speaker 2: you use this phrase like I don't want to waste
Speaker 2: my life, and so what would be happening if your
Speaker 2: life were wasted? And like, to use your example, there
Speaker 2: was a value around experiencing new things like having adventures, novelty, right,
Speaker 2: like pushing your limits. Those are values. And so it's like,
Speaker 2: what you're saying is that if I'm not expressing these values,
Speaker 2: that would mean that my life wasn't worth living, that
Speaker 2: I had wasted my life somehow. And so I think
Speaker 2: there's a lot of valuable exploration that comes from getting
Speaker 2: into what is valuable and meaningful to each of us
Speaker 2: as individuals. So, like going back to the story that
Speaker 2: I started with when I was in my twenties and
Speaker 2: this huge new chapter of opened up for me. I
Speaker 2: had been working in jobs where I was just kind
Speaker 2: of there. It wasn't really attached to any personal meaning
Speaker 2: or any of my own life values, and I wasn't
Speaker 2: clear at that time about what those things were. And
Speaker 2: it was only after you know, going through that crisis
Speaker 2: right and thinking about I could die at any second.
Speaker 2: My cousin Jimmy was in his office on the top
Speaker 2: of the World Trade Center, mining his own business, drinking
Speaker 2: a cup of coffeet nine o'clock in the morning, and
Speaker 2: an airplane came through the window and it just like
Speaker 2: took away the certainty that your life is just going
Speaker 2: to go on forever. And so it pushed me into
Speaker 2: contact with this idea of you know, at the end
Speaker 2: of my life, looking back, what would have been made
Speaker 2: my life worth living? And part of that really was
Speaker 2: I want to be of service to other people, Like
Speaker 2: if I could figure out a way to help other
Speaker 2: people grow or be helpful to them in some ways,
Speaker 2: and that could go in a lot of different directions
Speaker 2: in terms of a career path. But in order for
Speaker 2: me to feel like my life had been worth something,
Speaker 2: it would have been making a positive impact in the
Speaker 2: lives of other people. But that's the kind of value
Speaker 2: exploration I'm talking about, because when we can understand that,
Speaker 2: that's where you begin to feel confident about I'm making
Speaker 2: the right decision, because you're comparing your life choices to
Speaker 2: the values that you've clarified for yourself.
Speaker 1: Rather than someone else's values.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Yes.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that makes so much sense to me. And I
Speaker 1: think it's so interesting because we're talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: starting the next chapter in your life, right, and maybe
Speaker 1: like the next chapter is not that big life change
Speaker 1: that you feel you need to make, it's actually sitting
Speaker 1: down in that self appraisal and that real deep dive
Speaker 1: into what do I actually want from my life? What
Speaker 1: are my values here? What is my vision? And I
Speaker 1: think what is genuinely going to make me happy and
Speaker 1: satisfied in the long term, rather than just as an
Speaker 1: instantaneous kind of blip on the radar, like a little
Speaker 1: bit of an outlier, you know, Like I think back
Speaker 1: to that example of people who leave relationships with people
Speaker 1: that they might deeply love just because they don't meet
Speaker 1: some vision for what they for a fairy tale romance.
Speaker 1: Obviously that's totally your call, but I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: that that actually might leave us in a place where
Speaker 1: we are alone, even though our struggle has been to
Speaker 1: not be alone. So's it's kind of counter to what
Speaker 1: we actually expected it to be the outcome, and also
Speaker 1: counter to perhaps our vision and our value to find
Speaker 1: someone we love and settle down and have them in
Speaker 1: our life. So I think that was excellent advice and
Speaker 1: I feel like perhaps different than what people expected.
Speaker 2: But I know. But that's the thing. I think. When
Speaker 2: you get clear about your values, it then becomes easy
Speaker 2: to make decisions on a day to day basis, because
Speaker 2: all you have to do is compare to a course
Speaker 2: of action. Is this in alignment with my values or not?
Speaker 2: Another piece of this to try to get that clarity
Speaker 2: around going into a next chapter, taking a risk and
Speaker 2: being reasonably confident that it's the right risk. So, for example,
Speaker 2: me going back to counseling school, tons of money, tons
Speaker 2: of time. I didn't know if I was going to
Speaker 2: like it as a career, but having that values clarity
Speaker 2: helped me be like, I'm going to try this. I'm
Speaker 2: going to try this. I'm glad I did. But the
Speaker 2: other thing to be aware of is that it's not
Speaker 2: just that we hold values. And so it could be adventure,
Speaker 2: being of service, family, unconditional love, financial security, spirituality, all
Speaker 2: of these, but it's also organizing these values in terms
Speaker 2: of importance. Because somebody whose value of financial security is
Speaker 2: a higher priority value than being generous or having adventures,
Speaker 2: their life is going to look very different because they're
Speaker 2: going to be making choices that prioritizes one value over another.
Speaker 2: So that's where, you know, a lot of introspection and
Speaker 2: self clarity becomes very important when you're thinking about designing
Speaker 2: a new chapter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, understanding what you're actually motivated by as well.
Speaker 2: I think correct, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1: So I feel like you've created a lot of self
Speaker 1: introspection for me and things for me to go away with.
Speaker 1: I hope that there are others who are listening to
Speaker 1: this who are perhaps contemplating ending a relationship, starting in
Speaker 1: your career, quitting a job that they once thought was
Speaker 1: their dream job, who were better able to sit back
Speaker 1: and be like, is this new life chapter really what
Speaker 1: I think it is? Or is it kind of a
Speaker 1: proxy for not wanting to change something internally that's going
Speaker 1: to lead me disatisfy no matter where I am. So
Speaker 1: I want to thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 1: to the show and for joining us.
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you again for inviting me. This is
Speaker 2: a great conversation, and I do hope that this conversation
Speaker 2: was helpful for your listeners and starting to get clarity
Speaker 2: and confidence to know what the what the next chapter involves,
Speaker 2: is it changing circumstances, doing some personal growth work that
Speaker 2: changes their own inner landscape. But the real value is
Speaker 2: getting clear on our meaning, our values, our purpose and
Speaker 2: then making decisions that are based on that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I feel like that is such a value insight,
Speaker 1: such valuable advice. So thank you so much for sharing
Speaker 1: it like it was. Yeah, it was. It was a
Speaker 1: beautiful episode, So thank you for coming on. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you? Obviously we've spoken about your own podcast
Speaker 1: if they want to listen to more Love, Happiness and Success.
Speaker 1: Do you have an Instagram? Do you have anywhere they
Speaker 1: can follow along with your journey and what you're working on?
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for asking. Yes, the Love, Happiness and
Speaker 2: Success Podcast. Welcome to listen. I recently started doing this
Speaker 2: video version so they can come hang out in my
Speaker 2: office on YouTube for the Love, Happiness and Success Podcast. Also, yes,
Speaker 2: certainly do Instagram at doctor Lisa Marie Bobbie, but really
Speaker 2: on my website growingself dot com. So there Another value
Speaker 2: and source of meaning for me is being able to
Speaker 2: write and put information out to the world, and so
Speaker 2: there is an extensive blog with all kinds of articles
Speaker 2: and podcasts, playlists that I put together for people and
Speaker 2: for your listeners if they come to the blog and
Speaker 2: podcast page. I have everything organized into like content collections,
Speaker 2: so to come into the Happiness collection, and then there's
Speaker 2: a little cluster of articles and podcasts around holistic life
Speaker 2: design that I think would be really helpful for people
Speaker 2: who are in this space of what where do I go?
Speaker 2: What decision do I make in terms of relationship or career?
Speaker 2: That would be more information for them on this topic
Speaker 2: and all completely free. I just put it out into
Speaker 2: the world because one of my values is being of service.
Speaker 2: So there we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so generous. I'm actually gonna go look at that
Speaker 1: holistic life design. I'll give you, yes, please do. I
Speaker 1: feel like so many of us now twenties need that, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are so many people listening to this
Speaker 1: being like I am so terribly absolutely lost. Some life
Speaker 1: design probably would really benefit me. So thank you for
Speaker 1: doing all of that for us, for people like you,
Speaker 1: for people like me. I just want to say again,
Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on board. If you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 1: please feel free to leave a five star review on
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you are listening right now and
Speaker 1: make sure that you are following for future episodes. If
Speaker 1: you also have a future episode suggestion, or you just
Speaker 1: want to reach out, you just want to chat, you
Speaker 1: want to see what's going on behind the scenes. You
Speaker 1: can follow along at that Psychology podcast on Instagram and
Speaker 1: as always, we will be back next week with another episode.