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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust for trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you

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Speaker 1: never a live.

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Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 3: don't welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about colds, extreme belief and manipulation from two metal.

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Speaker 3: Heads who've actually experienced it. Hi am Ula Blanc.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Megan Elizabeth, and Today is part two of

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Speaker 2: our interview with mobein Shake, deradicalized Islamic extremist and former

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Speaker 2: security intelligence and counter terrorism operative. In today's episode, we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about his meet cute with his now wife, who

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Speaker 2: was not Muslim when they met, and how seeing the

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Speaker 2: pain that nine to eleven caused was the start of

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Speaker 2: his deradicalization, which continued as a further explored his religion.

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Speaker 1: We'll get into how he began communicating with the Canadian

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Speaker 1: government when he saw that a man he knew in

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Speaker 1: school had been arrested for a bomb plot, and how

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Speaker 1: he went undercover to combat a new terrorist plot with

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Speaker 1: what is now known as the Toronto eighteen, plus the

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Speaker 1: intervention work he's done, and how it's impacted him emotionally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is great. I mean, he's so fascinating. His

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Speaker 3: story is so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Before we dive into part two with Mouvian again, what's

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Speaker 2: your cult?

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Speaker 1: He saying, Well, Okay, I've been reading a lot about

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Speaker 1: the new show coming out about the Duggers. It's called

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Speaker 1: Shiny Happy People. Have you seen this trailer yet?

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Speaker 4: Not yet.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be released June second. I'm super excited

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Speaker 1: to see it. One of the daughters is in it.

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Speaker 1: It's Jill Dugger. Essentially, they follow the Institute of Basic

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Speaker 1: Life Principles, which is started by a man named Bill Gothard,

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Speaker 1: who in twenty fourteen was accused of sexually abusing thirty women.

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Speaker 1: They were on a show called Nineteen Kids in Counting.

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Speaker 1: They had nineteen children in counting, I encounting, And they had,

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Speaker 1: of course their son Josh Dougger, who molested several of

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Speaker 1: their daughters. They did not go to the authorities. They

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Speaker 1: worked with it in house, which is something we see

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Speaker 1: very commonly in cults because you don't want to quote

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Speaker 1: unquote taint other people's opinion of the kingdom. So if

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Speaker 1: you're the only right way to have it, you gotta

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Speaker 1: protect it so you can get.

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Speaker 4: More souls in.

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Speaker 1: So they are going to expose a lot about this

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Speaker 1: family and about this religion, and word on the street

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Speaker 1: is that it's much more dramatic than people.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Yeah that sounds harrowing. Yeah, I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to see it and scared to see it, and we'll

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Speaker 2: probably do an episode on it. Absolutely well, well, that

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Speaker 2: will be interesting to see. Another thing that will be

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Speaker 2: interesting to see.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you like my segue?

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Speaker 5: I do.

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Speaker 2: There is a show coming out called The Idol.

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Speaker 4: Oh have you heard about this?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: I was pretty pissy when I first heard about it,

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Speaker 2: because it's about a pop singer who gets like sucked

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Speaker 2: into the world of pop music and then meets a

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Speaker 2: cult leader and starts like following a cult leader. The

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Speaker 2: Weekend is the star of it, as well as Lily Rose.

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Speaker 1: Depp and apologies, I have heard yes, Okay, so.

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Speaker 2: It's getting quite a bit of controversy at the moment.

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Speaker 2: It's just premiered. And what did you hear this story

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Speaker 2: about how the first director, like they scrapped the entire season. No, okay,

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Speaker 2: so they shot this entire season with this great woman

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Speaker 2: genre director, Amy Simons, who I have mutual friends with her. Basically,

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Speaker 2: what it sounded like from this Rolling Stone article and

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Speaker 2: from other like little words on the street that I've

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Speaker 2: received here and there, is that.

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Speaker 3: It was a complete and total shit show.

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Speaker 2: They ended up firing her, scrapping the entire season, hundreds

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Speaker 2: of millions of dollars, oh boy, or at least one

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Speaker 2: hundred something million dollars, and then hiring the guy who

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Speaker 2: started Euphoria to redo the whole thing. There was an

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Speaker 2: original Deadline article that said that basically, like it said

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Speaker 2: that the Weekend didn't like the feminist lens that Amy

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Speaker 2: Simon's brought to the show, and he wanted his cult

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Speaker 2: leader character to be more of the focus.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, so they.

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Speaker 2: Redid the season, and the word is that it's become

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Speaker 2: like this sort of hyper sexual show. And certain people

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Speaker 2: were quoted. There were like thirteen sources for this article,

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Speaker 2: some of them were quoted saying the show is like

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Speaker 2: basically become the thing that it was critiquing originally.

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Speaker 4: How iron I.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I haven't seen it yet. I can't

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Speaker 3: speak firsthand yet.

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Speaker 2: We'll see I think it releases like next week or something,

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Speaker 2: so it'll be super interesting to see. But been a

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Speaker 2: lot of chatter about it in my circle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is just the cult of the celebrity.

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Speaker 1: Stop letting people who are famous direct things when they're

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Speaker 1: not a director or a writer.

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Speaker 2: Well, but Sam Levinson from Euphoria is apparently the one who's.

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Speaker 3: Like, all right, I got this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, listening to the Weekend.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened, but the articles and the

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Speaker 2: bits and pieces I've heard about it sound like just

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Speaker 2: just like a trash fire, like a total trash fire.

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Speaker 4: Wow, a trash fire, A.

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Speaker 3: Trash fire of a show about pop music and a cult.

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Speaker 2: Guys, if anyone's listening, listen, I got I got projects

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Speaker 2: about pop music. I got projects about colts writers strike

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Speaker 2: right now, so don't hit me up right now. But later,

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Speaker 2: she's got ideas. I support the writer's strike. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: strike with sag Okay, that's it.

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Speaker 4: That's it for me. Wow, So are you gonna watch it?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: I want to see.

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Speaker 2: I want to see for myself because I have gotten

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Speaker 2: some arguments with some boys this week about whether the

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Speaker 2: article was legitimate, and so I want to be able

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Speaker 2: to actually know what I'm talking about in discussions about it.

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Speaker 2: But I probably won't watch the whole thing unless, okay,

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Speaker 2: unless it's so great that I just can't stop myself.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we'll see, we'll see. You can let me know,

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Speaker 4: I'll let you know. All right, that's it.

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Speaker 3: Should we talk to a movie now?

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Speaker 4: I'd love too.

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Speaker 1: Okay? This show is sponsored by Better Help.

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Speaker 2: How much time would you say you spend in a week,

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Speaker 2: you know, being present in your life versus just worrying

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Speaker 2: for no reason.

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Speaker 1: Ooh. The ratio to that is not great, which is

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Speaker 1: why I love therapy.

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Speaker 2: It is so easy to get caught up in what

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Speaker 2: everyone else needs from us and never take a moment

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Speaker 2: to think about what we need from ourselves.

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Speaker 1: I tend to get stuck in thought loops where I

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Speaker 1: question everything that I'm thinking about or decisions that I'm making,

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes I just need an impartial party to give

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Speaker 1: me their ear girls same.

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Speaker 2: When we spend all of our time giving or obsessing,

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Speaker 2: or whatever it may be, it can leave us feeling stretched,

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Speaker 2: thin and burned out.

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Speaker 1: Therapy can give you the tools to find more balance

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Speaker 1: in your life so you can keep supporting others without

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Speaker 1: leaving yourself behind.

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Speaker 2: At different times in my life, I needed different kinds

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Speaker 2: of therapy. It really just depends on where you're at,

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Speaker 2: but it has helped me so much.

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Speaker 1: If you're thinking of starting therapy, give Better Help a try.

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Speaker 2: It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited

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Speaker 2: to your schedule.

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Speaker 1: Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with

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Speaker 1: a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for no additional charge.

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Speaker 3: Find more balance with Better Help.

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Speaker 1: Is it betterhelp dot com slash trust today to get

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Speaker 1: ten percent off your first month.

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Speaker 3: That's better help, h e LP dot com slash trust.

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Speaker 5: Now. Here's what happens is in ninety eight is when

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Speaker 5: I start to, you know, kind of get more serious

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Speaker 5: with talking to this girl, and I have this whole

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Speaker 5: I have this whole plan all right, this girl from

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Speaker 5: can I join it? Yeah? Let me make this point,

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Speaker 5: because how how amazingly you got the metal head part right,

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Speaker 5: So check this out. How I remember trying to be

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Speaker 5: religious and keeping my gaze down as I was walking

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Speaker 5: in the hallways, and then I saw these cherry docks

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Speaker 5: walking and I thought, oh cool cherry docks. And then

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Speaker 5: I followed the cherry docks and then I was like,

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Speaker 5: oh hello. I was like, I just I saw her,

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Speaker 5: and I was like, oh wow, she's cute, right, And

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Speaker 5: then so then I started asking other people about her.

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Speaker 5: You know, that's how you do it, right. And then

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Speaker 5: what happens is our circle of friends crosses, so our

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Speaker 5: metal head friends, she's hanging out with another circle of friends,

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Speaker 5: and the one of the guys happens to live a

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Speaker 5: street away from me. Okay, so now I already know

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Speaker 5: these guys, and so now because I want to see

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Speaker 5: her and start to come into the group, right, And

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Speaker 5: so we're hanging around and it's like you know, Penny

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Speaker 5: Wise and you know Pantera, that's the sort of stuff

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Speaker 5: we were. Yeah. So then I went away and after

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Speaker 5: nine if I got all religious and that, and then

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Speaker 5: I I you know, it was like fluke that we

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Speaker 5: saw each other because she actually lived nearby, and so

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Speaker 5: we saw each other. Then we started talking more, and

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Speaker 5: she became really interested in the fact that I went

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Speaker 5: to India and I got all super religious because she

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Speaker 5: was in this Eastern philosophy phase. So she was reading

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Speaker 5: a book called Raja Yoga, which is a book on

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Speaker 5: Hindu philosophy. Very nice book and Hindu philosophy, and so

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Speaker 5: here I am with my like, I, well, I have

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Speaker 5: my articles of articles of faith that you have to

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Speaker 5: subscribe to. So we we we went out when we

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Speaker 5: were talking about the book and Hindu philosophy, this and that,

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Speaker 5: and I said to her, if your ideas were different,

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Speaker 5: a little different, I would propose marriage to you. Oh wow,

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Speaker 5: that's how I said it. Wow, And she kind of

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Speaker 5: like what and so and so we spoke and then

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Speaker 5: she she came and she sat on my lap and

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Speaker 5: she's like, okay, I'll do it.

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Speaker 3: Have you guys even been on a date?

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Speaker 5: What's the Well, this is cool because it was like

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Speaker 5: we were seeing each other, right, what does that mean?

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Speaker 5: Like you're not officially you know, you're you're not under

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Speaker 5: no obligation to tell others, right that you're dating, because

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Speaker 5: when you're dating, it's known, right, you're seeing somebody might

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Speaker 5: not be known. Yeah, So it was kind of like

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Speaker 5: it was on the I'm telling you, like, I didn't

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Speaker 5: even kiss her. I didn't do anything with her. It

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Speaker 5: was just like this. And it later on my wife

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Speaker 5: was telling me, you know, at the time, she was like,

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Speaker 5: what the hell does this guy want with me? Like

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Speaker 5: he's like this religious guy, but like he's he's hanging

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Speaker 5: out with me and we're like sitting on the couch

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Speaker 5: and then you know, so it was it was really

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Speaker 5: I like it. It was like very pure.

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Speaker 1: Side note, I realized that super religious uh people often

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Speaker 1: say seeing someone or talking to someone.

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Speaker 4: It's never dating.

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Speaker 1: It's always like this very non sexual like I see

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Speaker 1: them with my eyes, right, I talk to them with

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Speaker 1: my mouth.

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Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, dude, I swear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a meet cute you keeping your eye

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Speaker 2: down to not look at girls. But then you see

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Speaker 2: the cherry Doc Martin's I can't at such a movie moment.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. But then she I'll just finish that point because

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Speaker 5: then she I said what I said, and she accepted,

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Speaker 5: And then I told my dad how I knew this

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Speaker 5: Muslim guy, who knows this Muslim convert, you know, and

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Speaker 5: I want her to come to the house and talk

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Speaker 5: to you. And my dad was like pretty cool like that,

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Speaker 5: like he would be willing to do that, but it

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Speaker 5: was a lie because I was the Muslim guy that

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Speaker 5: knew the convert right. And then interestingly, I said to

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Speaker 5: her in the beginning, I asked, I requested what she

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Speaker 5: wear the veil, and she says, I'm not ready for

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Speaker 5: that yet, but she did come into a jab. And

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Speaker 5: then my dad spoke with her, and my dad's very clever, right,

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Speaker 5: He's like, I'm not going to ask her questions which

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Speaker 5: she could memorize out of a book. I want to

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Speaker 5: ask her about life and what she thought life was about,

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Speaker 5: and how she would raise her kids, this and that.

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Speaker 5: And at the end of it, my dad basically said, look,

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Speaker 5: you know, if you want to live with us here

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Speaker 5: for a few days to see how we live, blah

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Speaker 5: blah blah. I was like, did my did my dad

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Speaker 5: just offer her to live here? And by the mercy

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Speaker 5: and grace and miracle of God, that's exactly what he meant.

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Speaker 5: And it was like that night, that night we got

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Speaker 5: it on, it was like it was like I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: it's happening. It's happening. Yeah, it was great. It was great.

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Speaker 5: The way it worked out. And in fact, this gets

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Speaker 5: better because later on in life, my dad was interviewed

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Speaker 5: for something and I was talking about me and my wife,

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Speaker 5: and my dad admitted he did not believe it was

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Speaker 5: gonna work out.

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Speaker 4: Mmm.

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Speaker 5: And the reason for that is because he had experienced

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Speaker 5: with people in his community who were from India, like

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Speaker 5: Indians from India who came to Canada and married white

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Speaker 5: women and they still had their problems of Indian culture.

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Speaker 5: And so another thing ever worked out. But I didn't

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Speaker 5: have that problem when I was born here. I grew

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Speaker 5: up with those Western values really influenced me, and like

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Speaker 5: I thank god, I never grew up with like a

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Speaker 5: miss soogynist background like the table Jamott actually, if you

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Speaker 5: believe it or not, as fundamentalist as they are. Taught

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Speaker 5: us to cook our own food, clean our own clothes

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Speaker 5: and be like that. When you're in the home, that

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Speaker 5: you should be active, you know, participants in like household duties.

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Speaker 4: So amazing.

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Speaker 5: So that was the trip.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us about how nine to eleven impacted you.

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Speaker 5: Oh, yes, Tuesday morning driving work, I I'm doing. I'm

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Speaker 5: doing customer service for the Student Loan Center. Okay, So

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Speaker 5: the Canada Student Loan Center and and and that we're

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Speaker 5: who you call to, you know, manage the details of

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Speaker 5: your student loan accounts. You know, we contact the educational

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Speaker 5: institutions and for verification. Blah blah blah. I'm driving to work.

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Speaker 5: I hear on the radio a plane has hit the building. Right,

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Speaker 5: this would have been before nine am. And I actually

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Speaker 5: exclaimed a lahu ukaba, you know what I mean? And

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Speaker 5: it was and I'll admit how like it could mean

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Speaker 5: like that exclamation can mean either oh my god or

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Speaker 5: all right, okay, like yeah, all right, And it was

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Speaker 5: a bit of both. I'll be honest, Like I thought

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Speaker 5: America was the enemy and anything bad that happens to

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Speaker 5: the US is good. Now when I went upstairs, right

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Speaker 5: and I would you know, So I went upstare and

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm looking the way that I'm looking at the

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Speaker 5: beard and the turban and whatever, and and every I

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Speaker 5: could see the people looking at me in the elevator

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Speaker 5: right like looking at my access card to make sure

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Speaker 5: like I'm supposed to be there. I felt very awkward

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Speaker 5: in that elevator ride up and I'm so I got

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Speaker 5: out of the elevator, came to the workfloor, and and

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Speaker 5: I can see the chaos, right, because there were some

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Speaker 5: colleagues who were trying to reach their families. A couple

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Speaker 5: of them were in tears because the you know, the

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00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 5: the cell towers had been inundated, of course, and so

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Speaker 5: they shouldn't reach anyone. And and I was just taking

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00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 5: everything in, right, And you know, I one snippet of

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00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 5: a conversation when one person goes, oh, they should just

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Speaker 5: bomb these people back to the stone Age, and then

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Speaker 5: somebody retorts while the bombings is why they did this

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Speaker 5: in the first place, right, So there's all this conversation

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Speaker 5: going on. I live relatively close By lunchtime comes, I

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Speaker 5: shoot over to the house. My wife is like watching TV,

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Speaker 5: like and she makes like this dark humor joke. She

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Speaker 5: says to me. As soon as I come in the door,

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Speaker 5: She's like, are you seeing this? She goes, Honey, you

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Speaker 5: don't have anything to do with this, right, And why

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Speaker 5: did she say that? She goes because I said, I'm like,

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Speaker 5: what are you talking about? She's like, because people are

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Speaker 5: calling us, like the phones, but your friends are calling

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Speaker 5: and so this is this is amazing. These were my

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Speaker 5: non Muslim friends who had seen the change that I

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00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 5: made because I stopped hanging out with them, right, I

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00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,760
Speaker 5: cut them off, basically back to the in grouping and

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Speaker 5: keeping people out this and that made an exception for

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Speaker 5: Joanne of course, right for obvious reasons. I say that

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Speaker 5: because the de radicalization part is coming. The intimacy needs

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00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 5: were met for me in getting married. That's a big

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Speaker 5: big deal, especially young men, you know, to saucerone looking

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Speaker 5: the idea that you can only have sex until you're married.

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Speaker 5: But it's especially you see this often with young males especially.

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Speaker 5: You see this now with the in cell community. And

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Speaker 5: so all these factors together and then later that day

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Speaker 5: I went to see the bad friends and they were

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00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 5: jubilant at what had happened with the attacks. So that

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Speaker 5: day was a very intense day for me personally in

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00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 5: my little life at that moment, and I just I

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00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 5: realized that there was a moment my friend, you know,

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Speaker 5: he asked the guy, I understand fighting the enemy, but

340
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Speaker 5: like flying planes into buildings, like, how do you justify that?

341
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Speaker 5: And then there was a moment where the guy was

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Speaker 5: he was basically thinking of an answer to come up with,

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Speaker 5: and he said, well, they're all Kufar anyway, like non Muslims.

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Speaker 5: They're all Kufar anyway doesn't matter. And then both you know.

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Speaker 5: I looked at my buddy who asked the question. He

346
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,160
Speaker 5: looked to mean or like no, this something is this

347
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 5: is not right because what we saw it was a

348
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,920
Speaker 5: huge disconnect. It was like I get the I get

349
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Speaker 5: the concept of killing the Kufar, but like, what's that right?

350
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Speaker 5: Like these are people, they were not their non combatants.

351
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Speaker 5: It's not a military target, like you cannot you can't.

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Speaker 5: So so that's what then prompted me to tell myself,

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Speaker 5: I don't even know Arabic. I haven't studied this the

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00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 5: religion in any real detail. I need to go and

355
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Speaker 5: do that. So I literally sold all my stuff. I well,

356
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Speaker 5: the way it worked out, everybody asks me this. I

357
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 5: got to my father was he was running the mosque.

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Speaker 5: There was a construction project going on there. A couple

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00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 5: of laborers heard that I wanted to go and study

360
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,239
Speaker 5: Arabic and Islamic studies. They came up to me and

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00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 5: my dad and they said, hey, we heard you want

362
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Speaker 5: to go and study. I have a house in Syria

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Speaker 5: just outside of Damascus. You can go. My my sister

364
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 5: and her family are there. They will take care of you,

365
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,719
Speaker 5: go and study in Syria. And so I was like,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to Syria, right, And so I went, I

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00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 5: got a ticket, I went. I registered with the institute

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00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 5: there to study Arabic. They give you a residency permit.

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Speaker 5: My wife and two kids at the time came. Spent

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Speaker 5: two years there studying Arabic in Islamic studies, went into

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00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,960
Speaker 5: depth of the scriptures, the history, this, that, and quickly

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00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 5: came to realize how wrong those extremist interpretations were and why.

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Speaker 5: And that's how the deradicalization happened.

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Speaker 3: I think I heard.

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Speaker 2: You say something about the Sufi system and how that

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Speaker 2: sort of assisted in that.

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Speaker 3: Can you talk about that?

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Speaker 5: Yes? So remember the two sects of Sunni and Shia.

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Speaker 5: Within Sunni Islam, the Salafis are a sect and the Sufis,

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00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 5: you can say, are a sect. I love this analogy.

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Speaker 5: The Sufis are like the Jedi of the Muslim world,

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Speaker 5: and the Salafi slash Wahabis are like the Sith. Now

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Speaker 5: I don't want I owe people away because I think

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Speaker 5: I'm angry at my previous involvement with the Celafees. So

385
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 5: I give them a hard time. So I will make

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00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 5: an acknowledgment that there are non extremist Celafees. Okay, but

387
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,760
Speaker 5: not all of them are like that. But even if

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00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 5: I say, like hyper Celafees are the Sith, so that

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00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 5: that's so. In Damascus, the school was basically they asked

390
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 5: me straight up a Sufi anta, I'm Celafie. Are you

391
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 5: a Sufi or are you a Selafie? And I said no,

392
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,920
Speaker 5: I'm Sufi and then they said, okay, you can join.

393
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 5: And I realized then, like, oh crap. If I had

394
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 5: set out Sellafie, they would kick you out. And it's

395
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 5: crazy because in the Middle East, because you have dictators

396
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 5: and you cannot grow your beard that long or like

397
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 5: it's frowned upon, and the government will they will. They

398
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 5: will walk you to the barber shop and trim the

399
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,120
Speaker 5: beard down. They don't want that long pirate beard. It's

400
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,360
Speaker 5: the way that the guy explained, He's like, we don't

401
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 5: allow that you're in a extremists if we see you

402
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,720
Speaker 5: like that. Now, I was a foreigner and I had

403
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 5: that giant beard, and they perceived me as an extremist.

404
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 5: They called me. People called me Taliban more in Syria

405
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 5: than they did in Canada. Wow. Because the Arabs. No,

406
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 5: if you're Indo pac and you're looking like that, then

407
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 5: you're Taliban. And if you're an Arab and you look

408
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 5: like that, then you're al Qaida. Holy yeah Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Post nine to eleven. Was it like a war zone?

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00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 4: I mean, was it dangerous?

436
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 5: Were you scared in Syria? Yeah, well there was a

437
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 5: semblance of normality in Syria at the time. In two

438
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 5: thousand and three, while I was there, the Iraq War

439
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 5: kicked off. Okay, check this out. The Bashar regime was

440
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 5: supporting Al Qaida in Iraq against the US. There were

441
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 5: chartered air conditioned buses that were leaving from Damascus to

442
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 5: go for people to go and join the fight in Iraq.

443
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 5: My okay, my son, my oldest child, his name is

444
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,400
Speaker 5: Mujahid okay, one who does jihad. Right. He was born

445
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 5: in you know, ninety nine, So I was still in

446
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 5: that mindset. So, my Kunya my nickname, like they would

447
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 5: call you, Abu Abuman's father so, father of so and

448
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 5: so so, father of Muhammad is Abu Muhammad, So I

449
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 5: am my Kunya is Abu Mujahid. So any militant type

450
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,719
Speaker 5: when he hears that name is going to be like

451
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 5: what say what now? Where?

452
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh?

453
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, what's this?

454
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 5: Yeah? So they they were asking me, even inviting me

455
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 5: to go and join the fight in Iraq. So to

456
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 5: your question, it was Syria was not the war zone.

457
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 5: Iraq became the war zone. But otherwise it was the

458
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 5: police state that I found in Syria that gave me

459
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 5: this newfound appreciation for the rights that we have in

460
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 5: the West. The horror stories that I heard about what

461
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 5: the government did to people. Oh my god. I was

462
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 5: just like, I just realized to myself, geez, maybe the

463
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 5: West isn't so bad after all, right, Maybe this Islamic

464
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 5: utopia that I think is out there, maybe it's not real.

465
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 5: And that is exactly what I discovered. And I came

466
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 5: back and then got recruited by the intelligence service. Of course,

467
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 5: I just.

468
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 4: Wanted to add really quickly.

469
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: So the cult that I grew up in is called

470
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: the two by twos, and the whole thing is about

471
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: Jesus sent his disciples out two by two to give

472
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: up everything. And that's all I heard growing up, and

473
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: then I joined this Facebook group of people who left,

474
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: and it's like two chapters later it says and then

475
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: they returned home. And so it's funny that I never

476
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: realized that. So when you're there learning Arabic, did you

477
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: learn that some of your beliefs were completely non scriptural?

478
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, you know. There's a it's very famous. They

479
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 5: call it the verse of the Sword. All right, like

480
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 5: as sensational as you can make it, Verse of the Sword.

481
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 5: And if you were to like verse of the Sword,

482
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 5: all right, and this brings up chapter nine, verse five, okay,

483
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 5: and this is the one that everybody uses to say

484
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 5: that this is the one that promotes violence against non Muslims. Okay.

485
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 5: And it's very and it's complete. And I use this

486
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 5: as a great example because the shif in Syria says

487
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 5: to me because he knows, like was when I said

488
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 5: my name was Abu Mujahid, everyone was like, oh. So

489
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 5: he was like, tell me, what's the verse that you

490
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 5: use to justify your fighting and killing. So I said

491
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 5: chapter nine, verse five, and he goes, nice, let's go

492
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 5: to chapter nine, verse five. So we go to chapter

493
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 5: nine verse He's like, hold on a second. He goes,

494
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 5: do you normally start reading from verse five? How about

495
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 5: we start from verse one? Crazy idea, right, And then

496
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 5: he walks me through the first verse, and then and

497
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 5: then when you even before I got to verse five,

498
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 5: I realized, oh oh he In fact, he says, verse

499
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 5: four cancels out your interpretation because verse four says, this

500
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 5: does not apply to those polytheists who did not violate

501
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 5: the peace treaty, basically because the crux of it is

502
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 5: permission is given to fight against the idolators who broke

503
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 5: the peace treaty. So hostilities resumed. But the extremists take

504
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 5: that verse and they say, see, you can kill the

505
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 5: idolators wherever you find them. But it's actually no, it

506
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 5: says only those that broke the treaty. So you see

507
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 5: there are conditions attached to this. And verse four, like

508
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 5: I said, it said this does not apply to those

509
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 5: he did not violate the treaty. So it tells you

510
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 5: this is about violating treaties, not about what you believe

511
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 5: and don't believe. Wow, so now you want to look

512
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 5: at verse five, and I was just like, damn, I

513
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 5: didn't even realize that. And so that kind of systematic

514
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 5: breakdown and going right to the bottom of the rabbit hole,

515
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 5: because people go down the rabbit holes, as we say. Well,

516
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 5: this allowed me so much time and I had all

517
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 5: access to all the primary sources that I got to

518
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 5: the bottom of the rabbit hole. And then I realized, Okay,

519
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 5: this is what it looks like.

520
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 2: So you go back home and you have this new

521
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: way of thinking about your religion, and how did you

522
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: then get rided by the government.

523
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 5: Yep, first week that I get back from Syria, the

524
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 5: first Canadian has been arrested on terrorism charges. So our

525
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 5: newly minted Anti terrorsm Act of course post nine to eleven.

526
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 5: This was the first Canadian arrested on that charge. Opened

527
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 5: the newspaper when we still read newspapers, I guess front

528
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 5: page of the paper Moman Kuwaja was arrested in connection

529
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 5: with the two thousand and four London fertilizer bomb plot.

530
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 5: Moman Kuwaja sat to the left of me in the

531
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 5: Couran school I went to as a kid. We used

532
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 5: to play together. We used to hot wheels cars, we

533
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 5: used to play together. I knew I knew the family

534
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 5: very well. So I saw in the article a reference

535
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 5: to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. Back in the day,

536
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 5: I don't know how. You know, there used to be

537
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 5: these things called phone books in which people, if you

538
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 5: can believe this, their names and addresses and phone book

539
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 5: and phone numbers were publicly available to everybody. What. So

540
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 5: in the back of this book was the white pages

541
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 5: where the government listings were. And so I found Security

542
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 5: Intelligence Service Tronto Region. I phoned them up and I said, hey,

543
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 5: I'm reading this article about this guy, and it's like,

544
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 5: this must be a mistake because I know the family.

545
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 5: The guy comes from a good family. This this can't

546
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 5: be true. And so they and I didn't realize that

547
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 5: at the time because in the Canadian context, the Canadian

548
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 5: Security Intelligent Service does what's called security intelligence, and then

549
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 5: the federal police, which is the RCNP the World Canadian

550
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 5: Mounted Police, they do the federal policing. In the US,

551
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 5: the FBI does both. Okay, so I didn't realize that.

552
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 5: They're like, well, it's out of our hands because if

553
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 5: I'm reading about this guy getting arrested and charged, that

554
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 5: means it's a police investigation and now it's being in

555
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 5: the courts. So they were like, you know, we don't

556
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 5: we don't deal with the courts, whatever. But the fact

557
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 5: that it's out of our hands now, but the fact

558
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 5: that you're calling us about this guy, we'd like to

559
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 5: come and talk to you. So I was like, cool, okay,

560
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 5: And so they sent over an officer and he came

561
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 5: and talked to me, and I told him my life story,

562
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 5: and he basically realized that I had access to the

563
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: communities that they were targeting. So the same kind of

564
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 5: people that I was hanging around with they wanted to

565
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 5: know more about. Now, it wasn't we wanted to know

566
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 5: more about the people that you specifically hung out with.

567
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 5: And knew it was you have access to this larger community.

568
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 5: If we want to send you to be able to

569
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 5: go infiltrate that group and get close to that person

570
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 5: and whatever. I could do that. So they it was

571
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: very utilitarian. They saw that I had the access, and

572
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 5: they also liked the fact that I was had this

573
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: newfound appreciation for keeping Canada safe. I I just thought

574
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 5: to myself, Yeah, I mean it's great here, though, I mean,

575
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 5: and I should do what I can to make sure

576
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 5: it stays like that.

577
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 4: It's like Canadian homeland.

578
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I legitimately I bought I mean

579
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 5: even later on, because if I just fast forward, I

580
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 5: was basically put into circulation as I call it, or

581
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 5: under development as they call it, and I would be

582
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 5: the you know, the the guy you think is the

583
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 5: bad guy, it's he's the undercover. So I'm in chat rooms,

584
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 5: I'm seeing who's who's being recruited, who's doing the recruit recruiting.

585
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 5: How are they being what are the mechanisms, what are

586
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 5: the techniques, what arguments are used? Emotional, cognitive, sense of

587
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 5: meaning and belonging? Is this person a convert? Is this

588
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 5: person an only child? Are they the oldest sibling? Are

589
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 5: they the youngest sibling? Wow, We as the recruiters would

590
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 5: profile people left and right.

591
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: Do you want oldest kids or youngest kids?

592
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 5: We'll take whatever we can Yes, I see it, okay, right,

593
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 5: and we will take whatever we can get. Absolutely, and

594
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,479
Speaker 5: especially and especially in those days, it was still you

595
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 5: had to because of social media hadn't really developed at

596
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 5: that time. You had to meet people. You have to

597
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 5: get on a bus and drive down to places and

598
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 5: meet up with people, and so that in you know,

599
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 5: in person engagement was it's very different than online engagement

600
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 5: in terms of recruiting people and convincing them. And so

601
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 5: we would see like a young guy living in a

602
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: particular area they converted to Islam, their parents have kind

603
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 5: of kicked them out or just you know, just owned

604
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 5: them or whatever. H And now we know that this

605
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 5: kid is ours, right, like, we're gonna we're gonna get

606
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 5: this kid. And so so I did that online in

607
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 5: human networks as well. You know, there's an event happening,

608
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 5: go to the event, find out, you know, what this

609
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 5: guy's up to, what those guys are up to. So

610
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 5: I was doing this for a couple of years and

611
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: then one day they told me the same thing. Here

612
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 5: a bunch of guys tell us what they're about. And

613
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: so what it happened is in that developmental period they

614
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 5: came to trust me so much because honestly, and this

615
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 5: is something that I testified to in court. Eventually I

616
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 5: was making fifteen hundred dollars a month working undercover in

617
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 5: these extremists and terrorist groups. No problem, no big deal.

618
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 5: I was working a part time job as a messenger caurer,

619
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 5: like driving around the city dropping off packages and this

620
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 5: and that, and never asked them for raise, never whatever.

621
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 5: So behind the scenes, what's happening is when they value

622
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 5: the like when they value a source, a human source

623
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 5: like myself. They want to see what is this person

624
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 5: motivated by? Right, you know, is it revenge? Is it money?

625
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 5: Is it status? Whatever? This and that. Here I am saying, no,

626
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 5: this is the my religious duty to protect, you know,

627
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 5: the public from Muslims who are committing crimes. And they

628
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 5: I was an altruist, you know, and so they saw

629
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 5: me coming a mile away, you know, and they were like, oh,

630
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 5: lovely doing it for the right reasons. What And so

631
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 5: it worked out though, because they put me on this

632
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 5: big case. And then one day, you know, they said,

633
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 5: here's some guys, tell us what they're about. And I

634
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 5: went and I met with them at the conference and

635
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 5: they told me what they were up to, and it

636
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 5: was a criminal offense. They wanted to do this training

637
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 5: so that they could attack targets, and that became that

638
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: was a criminal offense. So then I traversed over to

639
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 5: the federal police as an undercover on that case. Worked

640
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 5: that case for six months, gathered the evidence. All these

641
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 5: guys got arrested in two thousand and six big terrorism case.

642
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 5: Hyper sensationalization by media by government. They wanted to portray

643
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 5: them as like these hardcore devoted Al Kaida operatives ready

644
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 5: to blow themselves up. And it was like, well, there

645
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 5: were fourteen adults, four young offenders. They were so bad

646
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 5: at it, like they burned their shoes because they kept

647
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 5: them too close to the fire. Right. But they were recruits, right,

648
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 5: Like they were recruited by some of the older guys

649
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 5: from the fourteen adults, right. And I was just the undercover,

650
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 5: and I could see this poor kid is gonna get

651
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 5: rude when he gets arrested for terrorism offenses. Right. So

652
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 5: here I am trying to do the right thing, but

653
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 5: I'm also a pawn in one sense by you know,

654
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 5: used by government agencies that want to promote a particular narrative.

655
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 5: Then you have I thought, which was like denial from

656
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: the Muslim community of people who were doing this sort

657
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 5: of stuff, and it just became everything's entrapman. Moubean made

658
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 5: them do it. He's the bad guy, right. And so

659
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 5: in a time when the Muslim community feels under siege,

660
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 5: it's a post nine to eleven environment, Like I get

661
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 5: all that, and I'm seeing this, all these things swirling around,

662
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 5: the competing interests, you know, the mandates of different things

663
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 5: and so so I'm trying to navigate, you know, through

664
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 5: this space. And so they were not eighteen hardcore al

665
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 5: kind of guys. There were a bunch of goofballs. There

666
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 5: were some serious people who they got serious sentences and

667
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 5: they deserved it. But it was so twenty ten the

668
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 5: case was done. I finished. I testified in five legal

669
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 5: hearings over four years. Twenty ten, the case was done.

670
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 5: Twenty eleven, the war in Syria kicks off. Twenty twelve.

671
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 5: I'm seeing online by this time, Facebook and Twitter are

672
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 5: the main social media platforms. I'm starting to see the

673
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 5: rise of Muslim Muslims wanting to go and join the

674
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 5: fight in Syria, and saw the rise of ISIS happening

675
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 5: in real time. So I got online. I had some

676
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 5: sock puppet accounts, infiltrated their networks using the skills that

677
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 5: I did when I was undercover, just doing it as

678
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 5: an independent, independent practitioner, let's call it that. But that's

679
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 5: when the US government reached out to me, the State Department,

680
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 5: and they're like, hey, we see what you're doing. Can

681
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 5: you help us? And so, from twenty twelve to twenty eighteen,

682
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 5: participated in a number of anti ISIS activities in support

683
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 5: of the US government, US military. Hey, some guys we

684
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 5: tracked and some guys got whacked.

685
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: Oh wow, that is quite a phrase.

686
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 2: So you went to like a training camp with the

687
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: Toronto eighteen for like twelve days.

688
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: Right the quotation marks around training camp? Maybe?

689
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 5: Yes?

690
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 3: So who are these people? How old are they? What

691
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 3: are their backgrounds? Why are they doing this?

692
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 5: Great question because I think about the training that I

693
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 5: do to military forces, and I cover this. I go

694
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 5: through the life, that life of the Toronto eighteen case.

695
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 5: And what I start with is that model of radicalization

696
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 5: where I talk about starting at the ground level of

697
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 5: nature versus nurture, and then the group dynamics and the

698
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 5: grievances and all that stuff, right, And then I talk

699
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 5: about how what I went through, right, so my radicalization process.

700
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 5: And then I talk about these guys, some of these

701
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 5: guys who got arrested. And so I look back at

702
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 5: that model that I depicted early on. And when I

703
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 5: talk about a person who grew up in a conflict background,

704
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 5: maybe their family is are the perpetrators in a call,

705
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 5: Maybe they're the victims and survivors. Maybe they've been displaced,

706
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 5: they're living in you know, uh, camp for displaced persons. Well,

707
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 5: that's exactly what the case was for one of the

708
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,439
Speaker 5: main ring leaders, right. He was born at the height

709
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: of the Soviet occupation, grew up in a camp for

710
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 5: displaced persons, came to Canada, you know, with his family,

711
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 5: and gets plopped into public school. Right. Another guy, Zacharia Amara,

712
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 5: Christian mother, Arab Muslim father. Father has a job with

713
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 5: an oil company in Saudi. He's like the missing father,

714
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 5: He's never there. Family moves to Mississauga, it's a suburb

715
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 5: or just a greater Toronto area. Parents divorce. He tells

716
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 5: me the day my dad left, he threw me the

717
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 5: car keys and never saw him again. He becomes the

718
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 5: second main guy in the group. Right. So you see

719
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 5: a pattern here right there, people that are coming from

720
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 5: broken families, in broken sense of meaning, belonging in identity. Right,

721
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 5: They're lost, They're lost in that sense. Another kid, he

722
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 5: was sixteen when he walked in on the paramedics trying

723
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 5: to revive his mother who had died from a drowning

724
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 5: in a bathtub. And if there's ever a time that

725
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 5: people find God or find extremism, it's at the death

726
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 5: of a loved one. Right, So you can see these

727
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 5: are some of the profiles of these of these guys.

728
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 5: He was born, this guy was born. He's Pakistani and

729
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 5: he was born and raised in Saudi Arabia and in

730
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 5: Saudi and I mean, the Arabs are very racist against

731
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 5: you know, Indo packs, and just like Indo pack Muslims

732
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 5: are racist against African Muslims, Black Muslims. You know, it's

733
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 5: unfortunate it exists, right, but I can imagine that somebody

734
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 5: like him, even in a larger Muslim environment, you still

735
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 5: have that racism, you still have that hierarchy, you still

736
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 5: have those things that make you feel not enough. Right.

737
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 5: So here he is from that environment coming to Toronto

738
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 5: and they all get plopped into the same secondary school

739
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 5: where they form a group, all the Brothers of Meadowville,

740
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 5: where they discuss, you know, Muslim related stuff. In one

741
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 5: of his quotes, he says, these guys actually started quoting

742
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 5: Fitty Scent before they started quoting Osama bin Laden. No. Wow,

743
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 5: there is that whole like you know, rap culture, and

744
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 5: it's like anti establishment, anti authority. So it just kind

745
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 5: of shows that that this is these are where the

746
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 5: backgrounds that these guys came from and I felt bad.

747
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 5: You know, I could see that they were in a

748
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 5: mess of spot, and I felt bad because I could

749
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 5: have been in their shoes right, very easily, I could

750
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 5: have been in their shoes.

751
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really hard spot to be in.

752
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, but you know what, I just resolved for myself.

753
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 5: I told myself that, look, I this is what they

754
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 5: want to do. And unfortunately young people their age, they

755
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 5: do end up doing things like that that mass casualty

756
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 5: attacks and whatnot. So while I did feel bad for them,

757
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 5: I knew my sense of duty that I had because

758
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 5: they wanted.

759
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: Like I'm going to say this wrong, titanium. They wanted some.

760
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: Explosive correct ammonium nitrate, ammonium nitrate.

761
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 4: So they were ordering how much of it?

762
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 5: Three tons of it?

763
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 4: Right?

764
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

765
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 4: Their plan was it does not.

766
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 5: Simply order three tons of ammennium nitrate. No, no, And

767
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 5: they were this is the thing, they were very amateurish,

768
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 5: like they didn't realize that you can't just order that

769
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 5: much amount, and but they they thought that they were

770
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 5: you know, they created a fake group called student Farmers.

771
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 5: They tried to deceive others as to the true purpose

772
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 5: of of course, what they were doing in a in

773
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 5: an incredible point of irony, the moment Kouaga case, the

774
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 5: London fertilizer bomb black case that prompted me to reach

775
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 5: out to the intelligence service. In that case, the police

776
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 5: surreptitiously replaced the materials from the storage locker. Well, these

777
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 5: guys learned from that case and they and they put

778
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 5: candle wax on the hinges to make sure that nobody

779
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,479
Speaker 5: tampered with the material. It was eventually it was kitty

780
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 5: litter that they that they received.

781
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 4: No. Really funny.

782
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: So it's a bunch of like basically like kids who

783
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: decide they're going to commit horrific acts of violence because

784
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 2: of all the varying factors that led them to that place.

785
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 3: They're like eighteen nineteen.

786
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 4: It's like in cell school shooters.

787
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 3: But in a group, I mean it does seem that way.

788
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 5: I told you it's the same thing, and you'll just

789
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 5: get cultural uniqueness depending on what you know, what they've

790
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 5: grown up under. But the general the main components are

791
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 5: exactly the same.

792
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean there are so many different pockets

793
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: of that sort of idealizing of hyper masculinity. I guess

794
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: you see it in sure in rap culture. But yeah,

795
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: and in cell culture, in myriad cultures. You see this

796
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: and it's it's like it doesn't really matter what it

797
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: is or where it is.

798
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 3: It's all of these other things that.

799
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 5: Are yeah, influencing the person bombarding the person, Yeah, in

800
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 5: their life. Think about it like snakes and ladders the

801
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 5: game mm hmm. They roll your dice to go in

802
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 5: about your life. Oh hey, look something positive happens. Go

803
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 5: up the ladder, right, move forward in life, going about

804
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 5: in life. Ah, boom, hit a snake, slide down. It

805
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 5: throws you back. Right. That's the process like that, back

806
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 5: and forth, back and forth. That and for some people

807
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 5: who may you know, for whatever reason, I mean, you

808
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 5: can find out if if they have vulnerabilities, cognitive impairments,

809
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 5: other environmental factors, geographic barriers, you know what. It unfortunately

810
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 5: sends them down the snake. Ye, yeah, down the slide

811
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 5: or whatever.

812
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a good way to look at it.

813
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: It seems so like like it makes me feel so

814
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: powerless sometimes because I'm like, we are all so susceptible

815
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 2: to so many different factors at all times. It's hard

816
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 2: enough to even control what's happening in my own brain,

817
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 2: let alone helping other people to not become radicalized or

818
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: not develop really harmful ideology. There's a lot more that

819
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: we could be doing systemically and societally to give people

820
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 2: a community and make them feel taken care of. But

821
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: aside from that, it really is just like just freefall,

822
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: a game of fate.

823
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do think of this as well, right, Like

824
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 5: you know, I was. I looked at the picture of

825
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 5: the Texas small shooting, the one with the dead kid

826
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 5: in it and the dead adults, and you know what

827
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 5: I mean, like, here's the thing, like I'll just I'll

828
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 5: describe it, because okay, let's do it this way. I

829
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 5: see the kid. The kid's cranium has been shot out,

830
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 5: Like you can see brain matter, you know, on the floor.

831
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 5: I have been consuming this stuff from nineteen ninety six.

832
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 5: It doesn't even it doesn't even bother me anymore. Like

833
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 5: I can look at that and yep, I look at that,

834
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 5: and it's like, okay, yep, that's gray matter on the

835
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 5: floor there. The skull's been you know, destroyed completely. You

836
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 5: know the mother I said that, lady, her mouth is

837
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 5: agate the rest of it, it's bleeding, you know this

838
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 5: and that, and I'm just looking at it. Like clinically

839
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 5: like an em Yeah, and I thought when I saw

840
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,959
Speaker 5: that girl, I just thought to myself, like cynically, why

841
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 5: not this kid? Why not? What's any different from this

842
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 5: kid than the other kid that I saw. Let's go

843
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 5: to Alain Courd, the kid who was like dead on

844
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 5: the on the shore of the water in Syria. It

845
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,919
Speaker 5: was like a very you know, it went viral whatever

846
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 5: it was like at least well publicized. Why not him?

847
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 5: I mean it's like every day there are kids dying

848
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 5: from the There's a migrant family right now trying to

849
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 5: cross the Mediterranean Sea and is probably is gonna die,

850
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 5: you know what I mean? So I just I it.

851
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 5: I developed this like almost cynicism of like when when

852
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 5: these things happen to people, bad things happen to people,

853
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 5: Like why this kid? Why that mother? Why this? Why that?

854
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 5: And it's like when you say, like chance, it's like

855
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 5: you have no idea. You don't know what's what's gonna

856
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 5: happen when you and I are, when you die, when

857
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 5: I die, How how it's gonna happen? Nobody thinks that.

858
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 5: Nobody even talks like that, right yeah, and until it

859
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 5: just happens, and then you just hear him news, Oh

860
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 5: so and so died or so it's uh when you

861
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 5: when you're talking about like somebody who's been through that,

862
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 5: and then they and like some people end up okay,

863
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 5: like they can actually survive and and other people can't

864
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 5: write And why why that person and all that one?

865
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 5: We don't know, we don't know.

866
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the chaos of this life we live.

867
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: I mean it can be overwhelming if you actually stop

868
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 2: and think about all of the people whose brains have

869
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: been hijacked by violent ideology and all of the violence

870
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: that's to come. And yeah, it can be really really beverwhelming.

871
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: I mean, do you have coping mechanisms or it's just compartmentalization.

872
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's I think it is mostly compartmentalization. It

873
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 5: was really tough when the the isis days when there

874
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 5: went all those beheading videos and just the imagery of

875
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 5: war and whatnot. And oh man, I'll never forget the

876
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 5: one where like I could see it comes up in

877
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 5: my head obviously every time I remember it. It was

878
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 5: a kid who was being pulled off of the back

879
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 5: hit I guess the remains of a young man and

880
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 5: whose body was being pulled off of the truck and

881
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 5: it left this like red smear. And I looked at

882
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 5: the kid and he looked like my son. Oh my god,

883
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 5: Now that that ft with me for a while. And

884
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 5: and so but it's like it's okay now, like it's

885
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 5: twenty twenty three now. But like at the time, even

886
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 5: my wife, you know, she could see that it was

887
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 5: really like things were affecting me because these I mean,

888
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 5: some of these ICEIS members like you. In order to

889
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 5: match them and to do the countering that I was doing,

890
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 5: I had to match the amount of time that they

891
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 5: were spending and the material that they were consuming. Yes,

892
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 5: oh my god, it's like I had to plug out,

893
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 5: like I we closed everything off. We went camping, drove

894
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 5: three hours, you know, thrown north, and spent six days

895
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 5: out of cell signal. Everything this and that just roasted marshmallows.

896
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 3: On the fire from your brain.

897
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 5: Yes, And that's the you have to And it's more

898
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 5: than that. It's like, and this is a good lesson

899
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 5: for others who might be dealing with this sort of stuff.

900
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 5: You should go out where there's earth like ground, and

901
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 5: you should actually like sit on the ground and be

902
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 5: with the ground and be with the trees. And the

903
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 5: grass and like that stuff. Physiologically it is a yeah,

904
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 5: it's an oxygen factory. Come on, but you do not

905
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 5: want to right, Yeah? So yeah I do. I do

906
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 5: have those coping micans. I have to otherwise, like I

907
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 5: would get like the people that I would look at

908
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 5: on the beheading video or whatever. I had a dream

909
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 5: once where like a bunch of them came in my

910
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 5: dream and they're like, why are you staring at us?

911
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 4: Holy shit?

912
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 5: Why are you looking? Why are you staring?

913
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah that's a horror movie.

914
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 5: Hor Yeah.

915
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: No, No, So someone sees someone in their life and

916
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: they can tell that they are becoming extreme, and they're thinking,

917
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: are they're becoming radicalized? What advice do you have? How

918
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: can we intervene with cases like this?

919
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 5: I do work with an organization now called Parents for

920
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 5: Piece dot org shameless plug in parents the number four

921
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: piece dot org. There's a number one eight triple four

922
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 5: nine piece, so one eight four four for nine piece,

923
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 5: and so we it's a there is a helpline that

924
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 5: is available for parents, for educators, for even kids of parents,

925
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 5: because we've had parents who have gotten into qing on

926
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 5: and their kids have actually reached out saying that hey,

927
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 5: like my parents going down the conspiracy rabbit hole. So

928
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 5: so we get calls from from all different sides. But uh,

929
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 5: that's like the P for P has actually tried to

930
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 5: start in an organized way in which we can do

931
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 5: this uh interventions with people who are kind of and

932
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 5: it's not it's very chill. It's a very it's like

933
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 5: a like we so there are clinically trained people like

934
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 5: we have, you know, one guy who's like a community

935
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 5: health guy, licensed and all that, and then they'll generally

936
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 5: do a case with a former extremist like myself, or

937
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 5: we have like a guy who was formerly in the KKK.

938
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 5: He just did a really super super super awesome documentary

939
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 5: called Refuge and it is actually available on Delta Airlines

940
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 5: apparently on their like their, but it's called Refuge Documentary

941
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 5: and it is an amazing story of a former military

942
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 5: veteran whose buddy got killed in Afghanistan and he radicalized.

943
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 5: He joined the KKK. He's got Kaffir tattooed on his arm.

944
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 5: Like one of those guys ended up meeting with well,

945
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 5: he met with me as well, but he ended up

946
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 5: the story is him meeting a Syrian refugee a Kurdish Syrian,

947
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 5: a Kurdish refugee who became a heart surgeon, a cardiologist,

948
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 5: our doctor, and these two linked up and how like

949
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 5: they made this friendship and it's like an amazing, amazing story.

950
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 5: But Chris is now a co worker of mine. So

951
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 5: Chris and I work cases. We were actually on once

952
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 5: upon a time Adam Waffen neo Nazi case. So we

953
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 5: do cases together. So they will pair this person up with,

954
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 5: you know, like there'll be an intake and and so

955
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 5: the community clinical worker will meet with, will work with

956
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 5: a former like myself who's trained in interviewing and active

957
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 5: listening and all this sort of stuff. I'm doing a

958
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 5: peer support certification now. But it's funny because it's these

959
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 5: are the people who, like the psychologists can't deal with.

960
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 5: Social workers can't do it. Psychiatrists can't do it if

961
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 5: you don't know the ideology and you can't go down

962
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 5: walk them into the out of that rabbit hole, right,

963
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 5: you can't you get about it.

964
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: We need more role models for some of these young

965
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: men who understand where they're at but are able to

966
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 2: model something different from the extreme the radical version.

967
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 4: So does humor kind of work as well. Like the

968
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 4: humorous take with people.

969
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 5: You can see the way that I am, right, Yeah,

970
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 5: I and I and that is my personality, Like I'm

971
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 5: not I don't fake it. I don't need to think

972
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 5: about how I'm going to do it. That is my personality, right,

973
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 5: So the personality aspect is a big component of it.

974
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 5: And I always use dark humor. I'm always and I

975
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 5: do do this deliberately. I try to make light of things,

976
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 5: especially when they're very serious, not make fun of or

977
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 5: mock obviously traumatic events because but you have to do

978
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 5: that because these are so serious issues. You don't want

979
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 5: a person to just focus on how serious the issues.

980
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 5: See the see the brightness.

981
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, like light up a different part of the brain

982
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: maybe like the frontal cortext.

983
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 5: Or something exactly the backside line.

984
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah wow wow's And that's what we do as well.

985
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all we hope to do as well, lighten it.

986
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: Up, hopefully not inappropriately so, but yeah, I mean, I

987
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: admire you so much. I admire the work that you're doing.

988
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: Can't wait to see more of what comes out of

989
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: the movieing world. Do you have anything you'd like to

990
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: promote name drop?

991
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 5: No, just it's funny because I applied to this emergency

992
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 5: disaster response job for the Red Cross, and and so

993
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 5: I kind of feel like, I it's not that I

994
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,479
Speaker 5: don't want to do this work. I know it's good work.

995
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 5: I know it's but I kind of I've personally feeling

996
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 5: like I need to go back to ground and do

997
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 5: really help people, like something like disaster recovery response. There's

998
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 5: no there's no great area, right, it's like noble work.

999
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 5: It's like straight good work. So that that's I'm kind

1000
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 5: of that's where I am. Now, keep your options open, people,

1001
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 5: don't you know, don't don't let the cement dry in

1002
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 5: your life if you want to do this, if you

1003
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 5: want to do that. But when you do find something

1004
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 5: and it's meaningful and it's and it's good, you know,

1005
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 5: go one hundred percent and ten percent. And really I

1006
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 5: just want to thank the two of you the you know,

1007
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 5: I kind of creeped both of you a little bit

1008
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 5: on just the some of the work you've been doing.

1009
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 5: And it's very important what you're doing, and I'm glad

1010
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 5: that the two of you are doing. And I had

1011
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 5: a really good, easy experience you get you know, you're

1012
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 5: clearly genuine helpful people. So you know, I hope your

1013
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 5: listeners keep going, keep listening. Review.

1014
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys can leave us a review, that's that'd

1015
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: be great.

1016
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 3: No, but really appreciate that and really appreciate you coming on.

1017
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: It was great talking to.

1018
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 4: You, so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you.

1019
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 3: And that concludes our interview with Movieing.

1020
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: Wow, what a life. I a speechless.

1021
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,919
Speaker 3: So Megan, let's see.

1022
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: Okay, do you think that you would willingly become a

1023
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: government informant?

1024
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, willingly is a strong word. I wouldn't like

1025
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: hopscotch into it all excited, but sure, you know, if

1026
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: they need me, they need me.

1027
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 2: I think it's like, yeah, if you are able to

1028
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: stop something that's very bad and should not happen, and

1029
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: that's the option for doing it, Like why would you not?

1030
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 3: But it would be very.

1031
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the why wouldn't you is because it'd

1032
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: be very scary, as it were retaliation.

1033
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1034
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of reasons not to, but I

1035
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: guess I guess I would probably not be able to resist.

1036
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: Plus I'm you know, kind of nosy.

1037
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: You know, my mom, as we've talked about a bit,

1038
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 2: My mom did this recently for that one Mormon off

1039
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 2: shoot cult leader who was molesting everyone, and don't it's

1040
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: like yet she needed to do it. She did it

1041
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 2: of her own volition. She wasn't asked to do it.

1042
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 2: She just started handing them evidence because they didn't have

1043
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 2: Like no one was fricking arresting the guy.

1044
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like god, it was harrowing. Like the whole

1045
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 3: thing is very.

1046
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 4: It's still harowing. It's still still getting hate for it.

1047
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 3: She's getting hate for it.

1048
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: People think that she's somehow involved in it, which literally

1049
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: is provably untrue. But people be crazy and think what

1050
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: they think. And also just like the retaliation and or

1051
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: like the fear of retaliation from the people themselves when

1052
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 2: they found out, like this is not a fun thing

1053
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 2: to take.

1054
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 4: Am I remembering this completely incorrectly?

1055
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: Or did I want to ask you, like she has protection, right,

1056
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 1: And you're like, well, she has a donkey making that

1057
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: up completely. No, you're right, You're literally right, And I

1058
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, well I guess she's fine then.

1059
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: Okay, But the thing with the donkey is that when

1060
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 2: someone arrives on the property, the donkey's really fucking loud

1061
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: and goes or whatever the fuck the sound is.

1062
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: That's not how donkeys sound. But she does have an

1063
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: alarm donkey.

1064
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 2: Also, there are like pretty much always people there because

1065
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: it's a very communal house like she you know, there

1066
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 2: are survivors who get resources from her house and stuff,

1067
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 2: so there are people there often, right, But yeah, there

1068
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 2: is also an alarm donkey, so don't fuck with her.

1069
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 5: No not.

1070
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 2: I believe she also has some actual security systems in

1071
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 2: place now, but listen, the donkey was the donkey was

1072
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 2: the real effective security.

1073
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

1074
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 3: What is the actual sound that the donkey makes?

1075
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 4: I wanted to say yeeha, but that's definitely it is

1076
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 4: like that.

1077
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, thank you Steve, it's clapping all right.

1078
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for spending another week with us.

1079
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again next week, and

1080
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

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Speaker 1: red buds, and.

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Speaker 3: Never ever tr Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

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Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

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Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

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Speaker 3: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

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Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me cult pod, or on TikTok at

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Speaker 1: trust Me cult podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

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Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

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Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.