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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace closing arguments and the Delphi

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Speaker 1: murders of Abby thirteen and Libby fourteen. Good evening, I'm

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: Major Past Cicero says. There was a voluminous amount of

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Speaker 2: blood at the crime scene, but most of it came

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Speaker 2: from Libby. German.

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Speaker 3: Cicero says, Libby was moving and basically walking in blood.

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Speaker 2: Abby Williams died in the same spot where she was attacked.

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Speaker 4: I really believe that Abby and Libby would be proud

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Speaker 4: of you for standing strong even in the face of

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Speaker 4: immense pressure and perpetual criticism. Some of these individuals have

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Speaker 4: postponed retirement, passed on promotional opportunity, have dedicated personal time

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Speaker 4: away from their families, given up nights, weekends, and holidays,

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Speaker 4: all while in the pursuit of accountability for abbing Libby.

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Speaker 4: Today's announcement will not diminish your resolve, and I hope

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Speaker 4: you have found just a bit of peace in this

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Speaker 4: most complicated world.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: How true Those were the words of Superintendent Doug Carter

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Speaker 1: with the Indiana State Police months and months ago, Yet

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Speaker 1: it all rings true. The trial that has taken weeks

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Speaker 1: and years in the making culminates with closing arguments today

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Speaker 1: in the Delphi Court of Law. Joining me an all

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Speaker 1: star panelt to make sense of what we know right now.

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Speaker 1: But first to Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, founder of the

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Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, and star.

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Speaker 5: Of Zone seven podcast.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, when I heard the words of Indiana State

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Speaker 1: Police Superintendent Doug Carter, it really gave me pause.

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Speaker 5: Did you hear what he said?

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Speaker 1: That facing immense pressure and perpetual criticism.

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Speaker 5: That l had moved forward.

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Speaker 1: And that is what this trial has been in mince

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Speaker 1: pressure and perpetual criticism.

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Speaker 6: They have been attagged from all sides. They have stood firm,

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Speaker 6: they have been professional, They have been without hesitation to

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Speaker 6: make sure that justice is served for Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 1: The judge advised everyone at the beginning of the closing

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Speaker 1: arguments that went down today in a court of law

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Speaker 1: that each side would have two and a half hours,

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Speaker 1: but only evidence and testimony that was actually admitted a

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Speaker 1: trial could be allowed. That does trying to keep out

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Speaker 1: theories on odinism, trying to keep out the sod defense.

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Speaker 1: Some other dude did it because that did not come

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Speaker 1: into evidence. What is the point of closing arguments to

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Speaker 1: summarize what the jury has heard? Now, now we know

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Speaker 1: some of the last testimony that jury heard was the defense.

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Speaker 3: Listen, on the seventeenth day of testimony in the Delphi

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Speaker 3: murders trial, Richard Allen's defense attorney, Brad Rossey addresses the court,

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Speaker 3: telling the judge the defense rests. Judge franciscall was surprised,

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Speaker 3: as was the state. After a recess, the state called

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Speaker 3: three rebuttal witnesses. Two had already testified, but the state

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Speaker 3: called doctor John Martin, the prison psychologist who met with

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Speaker 3: Richard Allen at Westvield Correctional Facility.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting, the state puts on a rebuttal case. Now

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Speaker 1: let me go straight out to our legal expert, Philip Dubay,

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Speaker 1: renowned trial lawyer, currently a public defender in the La

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Speaker 1: County judicial system. Philip, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: This is how it goes down. We know that the

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Speaker 1: state started opening statements the defense. Of course they can

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Speaker 1: waive their second argument. The defense goes an act and

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Speaker 1: then the state finishes with a third closing argument.

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Speaker 5: In most jurisdictions, that is because.

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Speaker 1: If the defense puts up anything other than the defense testimony, anything,

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Speaker 1: the state gets a final closing argument. Therein lies the

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Speaker 1: rub for the defense. Of course, the defense put up

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Speaker 1: a lot of evidence, so the state gets a final

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Speaker 1: closing argument to the jury. That as well established across

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Speaker 1: the country. I believe it's because the state carries the

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Speaker 1: burden of proof.

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Speaker 5: What about you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 7: I agree. Remember, the prosecution gets an opportunity to rebut

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Speaker 7: what it is that the defense is saying, And if

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Speaker 7: you don't allow them to rebutt it, it looks as

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Speaker 7: if they have not carried their burden. So the prosecution

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Speaker 7: is allowed to a wait to see what the sum

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Speaker 7: total of the defense case is in their closing and

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Speaker 7: then in their rebuttal or sometimes we call it their

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Speaker 7: b argument ab they can then attack each point with

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Speaker 7: the evidence they've put on to rebut.

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Speaker 1: That exactly, That is exactly why the state gets a

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Speaker 1: second closing argument. Of course, they have the option to

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Speaker 1: waive that second closing argument at the end and do

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Speaker 1: it all at the beginning, but that's typically a very

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Speaker 1: bad move. So what did the defense present to the jury.

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Speaker 1: What will be fresh on the jury's mind? First and foremost,

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Speaker 1: the only tangible evidence that links Richard Allen to the

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Speaker 1: murder scene ballistics.

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Speaker 2: The key piece of evidence that ty is Richard Allen

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Speaker 2: directly to Libyan Abbey is the unspent round found between

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Speaker 2: the girl's bodies. Doctor Melissa Oberg's analysis found the crime

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Speaker 2: scene round had been cycled through Alan's gun. Defense expert

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Speaker 2: doctor Eric Warren reviewed the results of ISP testing and

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Speaker 2: tells the jury it is an apples to Orange's comparison.

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Speaker 2: Warren says, Oberg compared the initial round, which had been

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Speaker 2: cycled not fired, to a bullet from Allan's gun on

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Speaker 2: the stand. Oberg said an ejector mark was an ejector

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Speaker 2: regardless of whether around was cycled or fired. Were in

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Speaker 2: disputed that testimony, saying the lab needed to identify tool

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Speaker 2: marks under the same conditions in which the bullet was found.

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Speaker 1: Okay, straight out to Dave Matt, crime online dot Com

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter covering the case from the very beginning, and

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Speaker 1: to those of you naysayers, Crime Stories did not start

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Speaker 1: covering the case when the trial started. We started covering

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Speaker 1: the case years ago when Abby and Libby were murdered.

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Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, explain to everyone the arguments made in

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Speaker 1: closing statements regarding the bullet.

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Speaker 5: What is the defense arguing.

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Speaker 2: They're arguing that you could not get the actual markings

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Speaker 2: on that unspent cartridge without going through the firing of

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Speaker 2: the gun.

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Speaker 8: They're expert. The defense asked for expert claims.

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Speaker 2: That the only way the prosecution was able to get

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Speaker 2: the final result they wanted to say that this cartridge

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Speaker 2: had gone through the gun is by firing a bullet

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Speaker 2: from the gun and then comparing that spenshell with what

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Speaker 2: they found at the scene. And by the way, the

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Speaker 2: defense expert never touched the gun, never touched the cartridge.

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Speaker 2: He's doing the And by the way, it wasn't even

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Speaker 2: in the same room with either thing. He actually only

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Speaker 2: looked at pictures. And you're talking about markings on this

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Speaker 2: unspent cartridge. Fancy that you've really got to be able

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Speaker 2: to look at and study up close and personal to

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Speaker 2: actually match these things up.

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Speaker 8: He only did it with a couple of pictures.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Philip dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of

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Speaker 1: the LA jurisdiction.

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Speaker 5: Never a lack of business there, Philip.

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Speaker 1: Dubay I loved it when the defense would bring on

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Speaker 1: an expert that had never seen the crime scene, had

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Speaker 1: never seen the object, had never done any testing. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you could do that cross examination in one question only

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Speaker 1: if you wanted to, by simply saying, isn't it true,

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Speaker 1: mister Debay, you've never even held the bullet, But you're

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Speaker 1: in front of this jury trying to tell them your

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Speaker 1: expert analysis on the bullet you've never seen.

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Speaker 7: Well, remember the purpose, right, Yeah, The purpose of the

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Speaker 7: expert isn't necessarily to recreate or to do a demonstration.

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Speaker 7: It's to educate the jury on tool mark science. And

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Speaker 7: you want them to understand that merely drive cycling a

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Speaker 7: gun doesn't lead ejector mark. Lead ejector marks doesn't leave

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Speaker 7: striations and lands and grooves, et cetera. That would be

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Speaker 7: the argument.

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Speaker 5: It does leave a mark, though it leaves an ejector mark.

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Speaker 7: It does. But the question then becomes, is it the

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Speaker 7: same ejector mark that would match the barrel of his gun,

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Speaker 7: And that's going to be the issue. Did they actually

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Speaker 7: look at the gun? Because if it's match.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Philip Dubai, you totally side stepped my question. The

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Speaker 1: expert is not there to administer a tutorial to the jury.

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Speaker 1: The expert is there to counter what the state's expert said.

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Speaker 1: And how can an expert know anything if they've never

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Speaker 1: even looked at the exhibit, never held it in their hand,

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Speaker 1: never looked at it under a microscope.

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Speaker 5: Oh Hgwlno, I mean Joe.

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan is with me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet, star of Body Bags.

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Speaker 5: With Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you have to look at this under a microscope.

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Speaker 1: I mean, why why not take the time to go

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Speaker 1: look at the state's bullet and compare it to the

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Speaker 1: round fired and ejected at the crime left to make

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Speaker 1: the comparison.

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Speaker 5: How can you make any decision based on a picture?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I can tell you've been to crime lab before, Nancy,

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Speaker 9: because we do use microscopes for this purpose. You cannot

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Speaker 9: simply look at a photo and draw a conclusion relative

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Speaker 9: to this. As a matter of fact, we use what's

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Speaker 9: called a comparison microscope. So that means you've got two

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Speaker 9: central ocules right here and then two separate platforms that

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Speaker 9: actually compare. You can take one spent or you can

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Speaker 9: take one cartridge and another cartridge, and you compare them

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Speaker 9: in real time as you're looking at it. And this

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Speaker 9: is not something we talk about examining something with the

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Speaker 9: unaided eye. This is not something you can do with

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Speaker 9: the unaided eye. You physically have to look at it

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Speaker 9: to do the assessment. And here's another thing. Listen, if

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Speaker 9: you've got a defense expert, that weapon can, in fact,

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Speaker 9: in most cases, be provided to them and they can

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Speaker 9: do their own experiments. Here it sounds like they really

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Speaker 9: took a shortcut here. I don't know, you know, maybe

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Speaker 9: this guy didn't have access to a comparison microscope, maybe

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Speaker 9: you didn't have time. But I got to tell you,

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Speaker 9: there's a lot riding on this, and I can't believe

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Speaker 9: that they would walk into court with this expert and

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Speaker 9: he hasn't actually put his hands on an unspent cartridge

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Speaker 9: like this and compared it to one that has been

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Speaker 9: cycled through. It doesn't make sense to.

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Speaker 1: Me, okay, to have an expert basically look at the

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Speaker 1: bullet the way we're looking at it right now. You're

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Speaker 1: looking at an image of a bullet. The markings on

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Speaker 1: a fired or cycled bullet are microscopic.

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Speaker 5: Microscopic you. I can't look.

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Speaker 1: At what Joe Scott is holding and say, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not a match. You have to look under a microscope.

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Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, I mean, Cheryl McCollum, I find that

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Speaker 1: this really hurt the defense case.

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Speaker 5: They shouldn't have even put him up. I'm not saying

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Speaker 5: he's not an expert. He is an expert.

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Speaker 1: But without having looked at the bullet under a microscope,

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Speaker 1: how can he make.

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Speaker 5: The comparison and say, yeah, that didn't come from the

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Speaker 5: same gun.

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Speaker 6: He can't legitimately for us, we're gonna take that cartridge

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Speaker 6: and we're gonna turn it three sixty. We're gonna look

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Speaker 6: at every single angle and line those striations up and

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Speaker 6: those markings up to show it's an absolute match. And

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Speaker 6: when the prosecution witness was on the stand, she was unwavering.

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Speaker 6: They could not attack her at all. She was solid

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Speaker 6: in her testimony that it was a match. And just remember,

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Speaker 6: whether it's ejected by firing or you know, racking that gun,

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Speaker 6: it's exiting the same way. So those ejection marks are

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Speaker 6: going to be the same regardless of how it gets

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Speaker 6: out of that weapon.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand something, Bill Daley. Former FBI investigator

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Speaker 1: and security expert Bill Dealey break it down in simple language,

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Speaker 1: why it's so important that an expert look at a

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Speaker 1: bullet under a microscope, and what effect this is going

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Speaker 1: to have on the as both sides battled out in

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Speaker 1: these closing arguments.

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Speaker 5: All day long.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely, as And let me just point out one thing,

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Speaker 10: one theory here we discuss why the defenses expert didn't

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Speaker 10: use any techniques. It didn't examine the bullet or the

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Speaker 10: gun personally. Perhaps if they did, they would be led

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Speaker 10: to their proper conclusion, so they could only kind of

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Speaker 10: fire kind of put holes into this this prosecutions scheme

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Speaker 10: with regardless bullet, by only looking at the photo, by

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Speaker 10: only reading a report, by doing that type of analysis.

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Speaker 10: But to your point, is that the only way to

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Speaker 10: properly identify something, whether it's a bullet, whether it happens

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Speaker 10: to be you know, stridations on a knife left on

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Speaker 10: the victim or whatever, you need to look at the

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Speaker 10: actual weapon. You need to look at the physical evidence. Now,

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Speaker 10: absent that, of course, you're going to use photographs, you're

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Speaker 10: gonna use other techniques to do the examination. But when

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Speaker 10: that's available, there's no excuse that an expert would not

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Speaker 10: use techniques that are known throughout the forensic field to

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Speaker 10: examine those this particular bullet, this cartridge which was ejected,

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Speaker 10: not fired, as opposed to when the other guy said

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Speaker 10: it didn't go through the barrel, It came out of

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Speaker 10: the slide. It came out of the side of the

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Speaker 10: weapon when it was slid back, not fire.

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Speaker 1: And Joscott Morgan, you know, when the opposing side wants

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Speaker 1: to look at the state's evidence, they can look at it,

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Speaker 1: and they can even test it in the crime lab.

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Speaker 1: It would be over my cold dead body that I

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Speaker 1: would let that bullet go unattended with the defense.

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Speaker 5: That's not happening.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even leave the courtroom at lunchtime with all

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Speaker 1: the exhibits laying out. No, but you can allow the

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Speaker 1: defense to do whatever experiments they want to do. If

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Speaker 1: they want to look at the bullet under the crime

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Speaker 1: lab microscope, have at it. If they even want to

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Speaker 1: do a test fire on the same gun, do it

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Speaker 1: at the crime lab. So I don't see there's any

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Speaker 1: way that they were disallowed to do their own testing.

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Speaker 5: But they didn't. That is a major fill.

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Speaker 1: But could you explain Scott, the defense's argument that this

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Speaker 1: bullet did not come from Allen's gun.

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Speaker 5: How are they even making that claim?

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Speaker 9: I don't understand that. First off, we had the correct caliber.

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Speaker 9: This was a six hour forty cow round that they found,

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Speaker 9: and that goes back to the weapon that he had,

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Speaker 9: and the internal ejection mechanism for this weapon is very

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Speaker 9: distinct to the weapon itself. And the way we kind

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Speaker 9: of break this down is we do a general classification

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Speaker 9: and then we'll do specifics relative to this weapon.

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Speaker 10: Now.

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Speaker 9: I don't know how many times this individual has fired

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Speaker 9: this weapon over the years, but there are distinct changes

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Speaker 9: that take place with this weapon. Even though it's in

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Speaker 9: a general category, you break it down even further than that,

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Speaker 9: and those specific markings are unique to that weapon. You

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Speaker 9: could have fifty other six hours out there that fit

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Speaker 9: this description in a general sense, it's going to be

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Speaker 9: specific to this weapon. Bill brought up an excellent point, Nancy.

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Speaker 9: This idea that what they were afraid of finding out

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Speaker 9: here to put it in his hand in order to

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Speaker 9: test this thing could be detrimental. Isn't it fascinating that

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Speaker 9: they can just kind of throw this out there without

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Speaker 9: any substantive scientific evaluation, and you're supposed to buy it.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray.

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Speaker 11: During ninety minutes of testimony and showing photos, Sergeant Page

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Speaker 11: testified about the area where the bodies were found, a

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Speaker 11: large area of leaves and rough ground still saturated with

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Speaker 11: blood the day after the girls were found, as well

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Speaker 11: as dry blood on a nearby tree trunk.

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Speaker 2: In the courtroom, as the photos were being described, noises

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Speaker 2: are heard throughout the courtroom, sniffles, gas, family members embracing, jurors,

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Speaker 2: squirming in their seats, and uncomfortable blood.

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Speaker 1: Evidence, of course, a major keystone in those closing arguments.

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Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, closing arguments go

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Speaker 1: down in the Delphi double murder trial. The victims two

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Speaker 1: little girls, Abby and Libby. Now the defense is arguing, hey,

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Speaker 1: don't look at the bullet and be don't listen to

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Speaker 1: the confessions as we now know, and this is part

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Speaker 1: of the closing arguments. The defense did their best to

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Speaker 1: undermine those confessions, including bringing on the defendant, Richard Allen's

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Speaker 1: daughter and half sister. Why because in one of Allan's

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Speaker 1: confessions he claimed he had molested them. Big bone of

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Speaker 1: contention in closing arguments.

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Speaker 3: Listen, the defense calls Richard Allen's daughter, Britney Saponta, and

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Speaker 3: has half sister Jamie Jones, to the stand Before being

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Speaker 3: asked certain questions. Allan's attorney apologized for having to ask

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Speaker 3: uncomfortab questions. Each was asked, did Richard Allen ever molest you?

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Speaker 3: Both answered no.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the

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Speaker 1: LA jurisdiction and author of deal Breakers. You can see

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Speaker 1: her on Peacock Now and at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 5: Dr Bethany, thank you for being with us. What do

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Speaker 5: you make of that?

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the sister and the daughter

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Speaker 1: taking the stand to say he did not molest me?

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Speaker 5: Well Nancy.

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Speaker 12: In the prison psychologist's evaluation, he intimates that Richard Allen

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Speaker 12: has something called passive dependent personality disorder. And this is

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Speaker 12: significant to me because with that particular type of personality disorder,

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Speaker 12: the individual will do anything to maintain dependency on their

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Speaker 12: love objects. They will refuse to work, they will refuse

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Speaker 12: to make their own food, they will refuse to be independent.

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Speaker 12: Sometimes they become they become very dramatic to hold the attention.

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Speaker 5: Of their love objects.

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Speaker 12: And that could be the motivation for continually confessing and

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Speaker 12: then ramping it up and saying that he molested his daughters.

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Speaker 12: Is he's being a drama queen.

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Speaker 13: He's making the stories bigger and bigger so that he

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Speaker 13: can stay at the center of things.

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Speaker 12: He wants the attention of his wife now to you

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Speaker 12: and I, that would seem crazy to confess to molesting

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Speaker 12: two molesting one's daughter and killing two little girls to

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Speaker 12: grab the other person's attention. But he's getting his wife.

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Speaker 12: He draws her in again and again in these phone

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Speaker 12: conversations and he says, I did it. Do you still

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Speaker 12: love me?

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Speaker 5: And then she'll know you didn't do it?

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Speaker 12: And so this is the.

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Speaker 13: Dance he's doing with her to try to get her

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Speaker 13: to be connected to him.

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Speaker 5: Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: I want to focus on the sister and the daughter.

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Speaker 1: Taking the stand this came up and closing arguments. Taking

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Speaker 1: the stand is saying he confessed molesting me, but he

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Speaker 1: didn't molest me.

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Speaker 5: Isn't it true?

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum that Richard Allen stated in one of his

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Speaker 1: many confessions, Look, I didn't do all that stuff.

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Speaker 5: I said, I did, but I did murder Abby and Libby.

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Speaker 6: He said it over and over and over to multiple people,

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Speaker 6: and I recognized the defense didn't call his mama, who

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Speaker 6: he told flat out I did it. I killed him.

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Speaker 6: She said no, that law enforcement is messing with you.

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Speaker 6: And he was very clear he said, they're not messing

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Speaker 6: with me. I did it. And Nancy again, if you

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Speaker 6: look at somebody like even Ted Bundy, he used things

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Speaker 6: to shock people. He wanted, you know, confass all about

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Speaker 6: the pornography. And then when they gave him a number

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Speaker 6: of victims, he said, added zero to it. Sometimes they

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Speaker 6: will lie to further shock and just discuss people. But

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Speaker 6: that does not mean the sixty times that he said

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Speaker 6: he did it, that he wasn't telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: Well, we can argue to her blue in the face.

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Speaker 1: Did he intend to make the confessions? Was he in

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Speaker 1: his right mind? But the fact remains Cheryl McCollum, that

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Speaker 1: he gave these confessions before the public knew the facts

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Speaker 1: surrounding the murders, such as the purp had a gun,

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Speaker 1: a bullet was found on the scene, the girl's throats

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Speaker 1: were slashed, they were covered with branches. A van drove

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Speaker 1: by in the middle of the attack. He knew those

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Speaker 1: details before they were made public.

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Speaker 6: Not only did he know them, he put them in

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Speaker 6: chronological order, which somebody during a psychotic break would not

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Speaker 6: be able to do. Richard Allen and Richard Allen alone

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Speaker 6: gave us motive. It was a sexual assault motivated crime.

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Speaker 6: Richard Allen alone gave us the reason. There was a

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Speaker 6: lack of DNA. He made them across the river, and

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Speaker 6: then he got spooped and couldn't finished the crime thereby

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Speaker 6: not being able to leave his DNA.

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Speaker 1: So are you saying, Cheryl McCollum, that the motive was rape?

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Speaker 1: And when the white van, which is another fact the

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Speaker 1: public didn't know a neighbor drove home in a white

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Speaker 1: van in the middle of the attack. According to the state,

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Speaker 1: no one would have known that except the killer that

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Speaker 1: spooked him. He either got scared or lost his erection

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Speaker 1: and couldn't go forward with the rape, so he killed

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Speaker 1: the girls so they could never be witnesses.

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Speaker 5: I believe you were the first one to point that out.

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Speaker 6: I was the first one to say that. And I'll

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Speaker 6: tell you something else. When you sent me there the

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Speaker 6: first time, and I stood where they were murdered and left.

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Speaker 6: Only the killer would know that. You could even see

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Speaker 6: that side street, much less of vehicle. There's no way

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Speaker 6: Richard Allen would even know that unless he had been

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Speaker 6: standing in that spot.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course, as in many closing arguments, guess

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Speaker 1: who reared his ugly head, Satan, of course listen.

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Speaker 2: A neuropsychologist testifying for the defense says Richard Allen claimed

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Speaker 2: that Satan killed the girls and made up other stories

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Speaker 2: while in a psychotic state. Neuropsychologist Polly Westcott was hired

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Speaker 2: by the defense in May twenty twenty three and says

404
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Speaker 2: Alan already had depression and anxiety when he arrived in jail.

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Speaker 1: It was the battle of the gods throughout the day

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Speaker 1: in that Delpi courtroom, as closing arguments go down, first

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Speaker 1: the defense claiming.

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Speaker 5: Don't look at the bullet, and then.

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Speaker 1: Second, don't listen to the confessions, and third that sketch

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Speaker 1: doesn't prove anything. Richard Allen's not the bridge guy. Well,

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Speaker 1: it also boiled down to mind games.

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Speaker 5: Listen.

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Speaker 11: Neuropsychologist Polly Westcott said Richard Allen experienced hallucinations, psychosis, and

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Speaker 11: suicidal ideation. Corrections. Officers testified that Richard Allen would hit

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Speaker 11: his head on the wall, wash his face in the toilet,

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Speaker 11: reuse food, eat paper, smearing feces in his cell, and

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Speaker 11: putting feces on his face for two hours.

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Speaker 2: Allan was in.

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Speaker 11: Solitary confinement for thirteen months, and according to Westcott, that

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Speaker 11: can change brain chemistry.

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Speaker 1: When I say mind games, that's exactly what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Was he in charge of his mental abilities? Did he

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Speaker 1: know what he was saying when he made those confessions.

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Speaker 1: We also learn from witnesses that when he gave the confessions,

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Speaker 1: he seemed calm and coherent, later admitting I didn't do

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Speaker 1: all the things I claimed I did, but I did

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Speaker 1: kill Abby and Libby. You know to you, Dave Mac

428
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Speaker 1: investigative reporter Crime online dot com. We noticed that the

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Speaker 1: antics behind bars coincide with him confessing to his wife.

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Speaker 5: His wife hangs.

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Speaker 1: Up on him first, he said, stop talking and hangs

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Speaker 1: up on him, and then suddenly the lawyers come in.

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Speaker 1: She obviously called the lawyers. His antics. Then began explain

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Speaker 1: to me what he did behind bars. That gives the

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Speaker 1: defense fuel to claim insanity.

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Speaker 8: It was a he planned it out rightly.

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Speaker 2: Apparently he actually would like he would skip a number

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Speaker 2: of days of eating, okay, Like he would skip four meals,

439
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Speaker 2: because after you skip your fourth meal, it has to

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Speaker 2: be reported that you're no longer eating. So as soon

441
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 2: as he would skip that fourth meal, they would report it,

442
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 2: you'd start eating again. He worked the system like that.

443
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: But this is a guy that bathed his face and

444
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: toy in the toilet. I mean, he smeared pieces all

445
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: over himself, all over the cell. He did the most despicable,

446
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: disgusting things you can think of doing while you're in

447
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: a cell by yourself. And and it was all plotted

448
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: and planned at the exact time it needed to happen,

449
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, as soon as they bring in the

450
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 2: lawyers and everything else, as you've got your confessions going on,

451
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: and Benstall is crazy, and then all of a sudden

452
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: it goes away. I mean, this was a plotted and

453
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: planned event for him to be able to throw out

454
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 2: these confessions.

455
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: And this was a major point of contention in closing arguments.

456
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 3: Listen, Prosecutor Stacy Deaner challenged Polly Wescott during cross examination

457
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 3: about her claims that Allan made up stories while in

458
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: a psychotic state, asking Wescott of everything a person says

459
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 3: when in a psychotic state is distorted due to their psychosis.

460
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: After providing an answer that didn't answer the question, Deaner

461
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 3: followed up with could they say things that are accurate?

462
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: Wescott responds yes too.

463
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall renounced psychoanalyst joining us. Doctor Bethany several

464
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: questions for you. I didn't really crystallize these thoughts. They

465
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: were unmarshaled until I read some comments by someone on

466
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: Twitter named cajun.

467
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 5: Dvl dog Dawg.

468
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: And he was going through very methodically the claims by

469
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: the defense, and he I think it's a He points

470
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: out that when the defense argues he's been in solitary

471
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: for thirteen months, he actually had a companion sitting outside

472
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: the door. Okay, that was with him all this time,

473
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: That he had a tablet an iPad.

474
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 5: To speak to. You know, he could communicate with his

475
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 5: family and lawyers. He would eat. I believe it was

476
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 5: every fifth meal.

477
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: So let me understand, depression and bipolar does not insanity

478
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: make I know that much. Now, how can you claim

479
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: that because you have depended personality disorder? In other words,

480
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: he was very dependent on his Why right that somehow that.

481
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 5: Forces you into a psychotic break. I don't understand this, Nancy.

482
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 12: There's no true evidence of psychosis. I read the prison

483
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 12: psychologist's evaluation and assessment of him, and he makes a

484
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 12: couple important points. He says that his associations are clear,

485
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 12: so he's not having loose associations connecting things that in

486
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 12: reality don't connect. He says that there is no evidence

487
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 12: of something called.

488
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 5: Flight of ideas.

489
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 12: Flight of ideas is when you just kind of mow

490
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 12: from one idea to another to another in a way

491
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 12: that is a little bit manic. He said that he

492
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 12: was eating his meals, that he was putting on weight,

493
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 12: that he looked much improved, that he had refused to

494
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 12: wear his prison jumpsuit to the interview room instead he

495
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 12: just preferred to wear his T shirt. So I think

496
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 12: this all this stuff about, can you say something that's

497
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 12: true in a psychotics state, Yes, of course you can.

498
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 12: But I do not believe he was psychotic. And I

499
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 12: have viewed people who are making up or malingering being psychotic.

500
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 13: They always act crazy like this because in reality they

501
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 13: don't know what it means to be psychotic. So how

502
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 13: can you pretend to be something you've never been. You

503
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 13: just think of the craziest thing ever. Wash your face

504
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 13: in the toilet bowl, you know, smear feces on the wall.

505
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 13: It's like a child trying to make up a character

506
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 13: that they've never even witnessed or seen before.

507
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum has been in the courtroom throughout the trial. Cheryl,

508
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: isn't it true that during testimony an expert revealed that

509
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: if someone is keeping a chain of thought that goes

510
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: in chronological order, that that can be relied upon.

511
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 6: Nancy not only does he keep things in chronological order,

512
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 6: he's able to go before during an as for the crime,

513
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 6: So he says he's at his parents, he bought beer,

514
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 6: he stops by his house to get a jacket, even

515
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 6: though it's a warm day. He goes to the bridge,

516
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 6: he sees the girls, he follows them, he brushes a weapon,

517
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 6: he makes them go down the hill. He starts to

518
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 6: do this crime, He sees a van, gets food and

519
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 6: then leaves. And what's really critical here is he even

520
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 6: says I'm there, date and time that they were there,

521
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 6: I saw him, I did this. I part here. He

522
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 6: gives us every single thing we need in the order that.

523
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: It happened closing arguments in the Delphi double murder trial,

524
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: where Abby and Libby were both murdered out in the

525
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere near a very high trestle bridge on

526
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: trial the local pharmacy tech Richard Allen.

527
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 5: Where could the jury go? Now, Well, you're always worried

528
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 5: that there.

529
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: Could be one zany gurror will latch on to the

530
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: sad some other dude did it defense including crazy theories.

531
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: For instance, we heard this zany theory from True Crime

532
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: Designs blaming sister Kelsey.

533
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 14: I have long speculated that Kelsey is the one who

534
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,719
Speaker 14: planted this evidence on Libby's phone, because she, by her

535
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 14: own admission, had the passwords to Libby's socials.

536
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: Okay, that's from True Crime design Cheryl McCollum.

537
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 5: There was an.

538
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: All out war online when I announced after leaving the

539
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: courtroom that YouTubers online, not YouTubers in the courtroom, but

540
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: YouTubers online had actually been attacking the victim's family. Oh

541
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: all Hgal broke loose that that wasn't true, but we

542
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: just heard it.

543
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 6: It is amazing to me some of these folks that

544
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 6: have put out that Kelsey had anything in the world

545
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 6: to do with the murder of her sister and her

546
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 6: sister's friend Abby. Nancy. It also blew my mind that

547
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 6: people then started attacking you because you called them out.

548
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 6: Here's the reality. They don't have to believe me or you.

549
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 6: The defense failed to show in any way obviously that

550
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 6: Kelsey German had anything to do with these murders. This

551
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 6: is baseless, It is repugnant, and you want to talk

552
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 6: about the devil, this is the work of the devil

553
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 6: in my opinion, that you would go after Kelsey German

554
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 6: in any way when Kelsey was a hero that night.

555
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 6: She's the one that put it on social media. She's

556
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 6: the one that started calling the phones trying to see

557
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 6: if they could hear them ring it. She's the one

558
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 6: that identified the shoe that was found from that bridge.

559
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 6: A seventeen year old girl decided to call that entire

560
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 6: community to action, and Nancy, I personally appreciate you going

561
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 6: there in person the day before going into court as

562
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 6: long as you could until the judge said you couldn't

563
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 6: come back in her rule, not yours, and then you

564
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 6: went to locations that were so important. You were boots

565
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 6: on the ground, and it doesn't matter how much time

566
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 6: you spent in court. It matters that you spent time,

567
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 6: and those families appreciated Nancy Grace walking in that courtland.

568
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: You know what, Cheryl, We're gonna always have critics, no

569
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: matter how hard we try, and no matter what we do.

570
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: I'm not focusing on them. That means nothing to me.

571
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm focusing on what happened in closing arguments.

572
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 5: Now.

573
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: Speaking of blaming Kelsey as one defense, thank goodness the

574
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: defense didn't drag that up in court. But what will

575
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: the jurors come up with behind those jury deliberation doors.

576
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: Here's more from True Crime design Listen to this samey theory.

577
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 15: I believe she led the girls to their assailants, who attacked, subdued,

578
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 15: and abducted them before eventually killing them at the scene

579
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 15: by the creek. I also believe, based on physical evidence

580
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 15: at the crime scene, that this was in fact a

581
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 15: ritualistic killing, a blood offering to the gods or demonic

582
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 15: entities that the people of Delphi worship.

583
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,439
Speaker 1: Oh dear Lord in Heaven, the devil is back. Let's

584
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: just hope he doesn't make it into the jury deliberation room. Okay,

585
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: this is also from True Crime Designment. Let me assure

586
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: you there are many people out there attacking the victims' families.

587
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: Is shameful that said, this theory is that there was

588
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: a ritualistic killing, a blood offering to God's or demonic

589
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: entities worshiped.

590
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 5: By the people of Delphi. That's going to be a

591
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 5: big surprise to them. But Cheryl McCollum, aside from those.

592
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: Zany theories supporting the sod some other du did it defense.

593
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: There were other people that I felt sure the defense

594
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: would point to, such as Ron Logan Keegan Kline.

595
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 6: What about It baffling to me that they didn't bring

596
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 6: up those two individuals for sure. Ron Logan, he owned

597
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 6: the property. Keegan Klein would contact with Libby before this occurred.

598
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 6: They that's why they went to the bridge to meet

599
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 6: this person. It's unbelievable to me the people they did

600
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 6: not call, so again they even know it is baseless.

601
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 6: In fact, this no chance they can connect these people,

602
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 6: and they knew it. It shows how little they act

603
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 6: to the points to anybody else other than Nure.

604
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: Now Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

605
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 11: Shocking moment in the courtroom when former FBI forensic examiner

606
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 11: Stacey Eldridge says Libby Germans phone received a call at

607
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 11: five forty five pm February thirteenth, twenty seventeen, and within

608
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 11: millisecond a headphone jack was inserted into the phone. Eldridge says.

609
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 11: The headphone jack was removed nearly five hours later, at

610
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 11: ten thirty two pm. Eldridge says, I cannot think of

611
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 11: any explanation that doesn't involve human interaction.

612
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: Okay, well that was shot to HGL just Gott Morgan

613
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: an Sheryl McCollum forensic experts. There were claims in court

614
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: and of course this is going to be an issue

615
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: for the jury and deliberations room that one of the

616
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: girl's cell phone Libby's, had the earpiece a jack plugged

617
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: in and out after the time of death. But just

618
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: Gott Morgan, isn't it true? And we heard about this?

619
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: Did you real have this ringing in their ears? As

620
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: they deliberate that it came out that if water or

621
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: dirt gets on the port.

622
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 5: It can have the same result when you're looking at

623
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 5: the phone activity.

624
00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 9: Forensically, the potential certainly exists. But again with this idea

625
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 9: that this thing is being inserted in there specifically, I

626
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 9: think is kind of interesting. Also, let's remember where this

627
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 9: found that this phone was found. The phone when it

628
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 9: was recovered, was actually found beneath the remains at that

629
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 9: point in time, and all of a sudden, the phone

630
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 9: starts pinging again and you have these messages that are

631
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 9: uploading to it. So you've got this dead time in

632
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 9: there with little or no accountability for it. I think

633
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 9: that that's certainly compelling in this case.

634
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 5: Name so bottom line, Cheryl McCollum.

635
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: The evidence that came in front of the jury, and

636
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: of course this is going to be ringing in their ears,

637
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: is that one of the girls had a plug in

638
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: by a headset or a jack of some sort after

639
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: the time of death, which totally skewers the state's case.

640
00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: But then it came out that water or on the port,

641
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: and we know the girls had to go through the creek.

642
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: We know, as Joe Scott just pointed out, the phone

643
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: was under a body in the dirt can have the

644
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: same forensic appearance as plugging in a jack.

645
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 6: And Nancy, there's two things here. Not only can that

646
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 6: be true it was cold, the phone can power off

647
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 6: and own as it warms back up, just like if

648
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 6: your phone gets oberheated. The second thing here, the phone

649
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 6: was found under abbey. When you have libidity and that

650
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 6: body starts the decomposing process, that phone is going to

651
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 6: leave a pattern. There is no way that phone was moved.

652
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 6: And if Jack inserted and put it back exactly where

653
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 6: it was before, couldn't have happened.

654
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: And to you, Jo Scott Morgan, the blood evidence, which

655
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: I find extremely compelling and very probative.

656
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 5: The state presented it, the defense attacked it.

657
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 1: What will be in the gerrar's minds as they deliberate, Well.

658
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 9: They're going to have the memory of those images certainly

659
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 9: that they saw a trial that we didn't have, we

660
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 9: didn't have access to, and they're going to see the

661
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 9: volume of blood that was shed at the scene. And

662
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 9: here's one of the fascinating things about the blood evidence.

663
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 9: The blood evidence indicates movement. You know, we talk about

664
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 9: the swiping of the hand on the tree. We've heard

665
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 9: about this, that transfer of blood and again, this is

666
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 9: kind of an egregious thing when you think about it

667
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 9: over the top, that you have movement, potentially having a

668
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 9: throat cut at this particular at this particular time, and

669
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 9: this child is still moving about with this injury that

670
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 9: can be implied here as they're moving about in this environment,

671
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 9: all alone, out there in this wooded area, with this

672
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 9: monster that is tracking them along, in moving them along.

673
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 9: That's going to stay with these individuals that are seated

674
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 9: on this jury forever and ever.

675
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: Blockbuster closing arguments in a delified court of law. And

676
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: now we wait as just as unfolds. Nancy Gray signing off,

677
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: good night friend,