WEBVTT - What It’s Like to Be Gay at Work Right Now 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:02.520 So what are we looking at here? It's is it 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.000 a particularly gay desk? To you? I don't think so. 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:07.280 I don't even know what that means. I don't know 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.200 what it does either. But wasn't that what you were 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.480 checking out? Were you literally asking people to show you 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.239 how queer their desk is? No, No, I promise there's 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:30.600 a point. Stick with me. Hi. I'm Francesca Levi and 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.120 I'm right back at Greenfield. This week we're talking about 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.680 what it means to be gay at work. In the 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:39.960 clip you just heard is from Nancy, a W and 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.360 I C podcast about lgbt Q issues, and we're going 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:45.800 to have more from that show and here from its 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.519 hosts in a bit right now. We thought it was 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.640 a particularly good time to ask the question of what 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.400 it's like to be gay at work? Yeah, so, over 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.000 last ten years, there have been more protections for gay people, 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.880 both in and outside the workplace. Of course, we all 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.520 know of the Supreme Court decision that legalized gay marriage 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.200 and the shifting cultural norms that came with that, but 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.000 there was also some legal changes that happened. Um the 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.920 Obama administration issued executive orders that were meant to protect 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.679 the LGBT community, and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission also 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.240 issued guidance that was supposed to protect the same people. 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.160 Of course, all that has changed in the last ten 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:30.119 months with the new administration, which hasn't been as friendly 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.080 and i'd say more hostile to that community. And in 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:36.080 the past couple of weeks, this tension between the old 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.520 administration's policies and the new administration's policy has kind of 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:42.240 come to a head. There's a case that's moving through 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.720 the courts right now that centers on a man who 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.640 said he was fired for being gay. In the past. 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.760 The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission had to argue that he 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.280 was protected by Title seven of the Civil Rights Act, 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.000 which protects against discrimination on the basis of several things, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.840 including sex, but not sexual orientation. But the e o 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.800 C had argued that sexual orientation goes hand in hand 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.960 with sex discrimination. Now, however, the Department of Justice, led 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.520 by Jeff Sessions, is arguing against that position in the 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.760 very same case. So the government is actually arguing with 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:25.040 itself over whether or not you are protected from discrimination 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.600 if you're gay. And this isn't the first time that 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.320 in the short ten months of the administration that Trump 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.239 has sent negative signals to that community. Over the summer, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.160 he issued a ban on transgender people serving in the 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.760 military openly, and by some estimates, that is the largest 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:47.080 employer of trans people. That's a huge number of people 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:51.520 who suddenly have their employment status just thrown into doubt. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.200 And even if you're not a member of that group, 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.919 even if you aren't actively being discriminated against. I think 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.840 all of these big picture policy changes have a way 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:07.240 of trickling down into everyday cultural and social norms, and 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.280 so we wanted to use the rest of the episode 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.640 to talk about what day to day life is really 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.680 like at work if you're gay. One question is whether 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.280 to be out at work at all. We asked a 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:36.920 few people how they made that decision. So I've always 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.400 been out at work, and I think part of that 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.000 is because there's evidence of me being gay all over 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.280 my resume, so I kind of haven't given myself much 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.160 of a choice there um. But I think mostly it's 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:52.200 because I work in a progressive university environment where there's 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.360 really just not much of a downside to being open, 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.160 and the way I usually handle it in a new 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.880 work relationship is just by really casually men training in 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.160 a conversation, you know, something that my husband and I 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.320 were talking about the night before. UM. I also think 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.880 that for my first job, being gay and talking about 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.440 that in the interview was strangely a huge part of 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.480 why I got that first job and ended up being 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.760 a really queer team that I was joining. UM. So 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.320 this whole being out at work thing has worked out 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.560 pretty well for me so far. I am out at 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.200 work because when I was younger, I didn't have many 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:34.080 role models, and I was constantly looking for people who 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.320 I thought were LGBT, and I'd have these fantasies about, Oh, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.200 maybe he's going to come out so I can just 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.120 be myself, or she's going to tell me that she's 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.400 a lesbian and I can say I am too. And 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:50.400 I never found those people. And UM, I literally come 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:53.000 out every day every time I meet somebody new, in 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.320 every new situation, when I have a new employee, and UM, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.480 you know, my thought is that if I can uh 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:05.560 impact one person who finds some strength or comfort in 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.600 knowing that, um that I'm with them, then you know, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.720 it means the world to me. So that's why I'm 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.279 out of work. In the first few jobs I had 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.839 in my early twenties, I wasn't out. I think some 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:20.839 of it was being young and not knowing if it 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.520 was appropriate or safe. But at my current position, I've 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.160 been out since day one. Part of it was actually 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.240 just happenstance. A coworker to me into a conversation about 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.920 the other gays in the office, and I just went 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.120 with it because I was a gay in the office. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.800 But I feel like it's a luxury to be in 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.240 an office where being out as something so accepted and 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.120 undramatic that I never even really had to come out 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:53.120 there at all. Deciding whether to come out is just 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:56.160 one part of the equation. Our guests today are going 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.520 to talk about the many other things LGBTQ people experience 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.240 at work. Kathy Too and Tobin Low host w n 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.560 y c's Nancy Podcast. They're in the middle of a 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:15.000 series of episodes called Out at Work. So obviously you 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:19.240 two are out at work now, um, in your current jobs. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.400 But has that always been the case that this is 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.400 this something you've negotiated at previous jobs. For me, I 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.039 would say I've always been in sort of let's say, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:32.719 crunchy fields. So I was a classical musician. For a while, 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.360 it was a cellist, and and then I got into 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.640 public radio. So it always has felt like I've been 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:43.640 in very queer friendly kinds of fields. So for me, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.800 I would I feel like the ways it's manifested have 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.200 been in the more subtle ways of trying to navigate 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.920 somebody who asked about my girlfriend and then me having 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.560 to politely navigate them towards no, I don't have a 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.039 partner right now, or I don't have a boyfriend right now, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:01.400 or I do have a boyfriend, so that this sort 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.960 of like everyday office politics, I guess, is what I 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.320 would say. I've had to navigate. Yeah, and ever since 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:12.000 I've been out, I haven't every job I've been in anyways, 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.880 I've never hit it from anybody, except for one specific 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.720 job in which I didn't feel safe, But other than that, 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.480 I feel like i've been I've been pretty out right. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:26.760 And now of course we're professionally gay. Kathy, can you 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.440 go into why you didn't feel safe being out at 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:34.400 that job? Yeah? Well, now everybody's like, what is the job? Um? 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.920 I've worked as an E M T for Ambience Company 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.880 for about a year, like right out of college, and 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.720 the people that I was working with on a daily basis, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.200 it just felt like, well, first of all, I heard 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.800 comments that were fairly homophobic. And I don't want to 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.520 say that this is true for like the entire health industry. 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.240 This is very specific to my ambulance, I would say. 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.760 But it wasn't like I made up a life for myself. 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.520 I just didn't talk about it. And after that I decided, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:07.720 I was like, this is never gonna be a thing 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:09.760 that I'm going to do again, because it just didn't 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.240 feel even though it had nothing to do with my 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:17.640 work at the time, it didn't feel like my coworkers 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.080 knew me, and it didn't feel like I could really 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.120 be myself at work. I was always a little bit 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.360 on edge. I think, well, now you're in a role 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.520 that's the complete opposite of that. At w hen y 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:33.280 C's Nancy podcast, you um, as you just joked, you're 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.200 sort of professionally gay. So what's it like to have 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.440 a job that's that's so tied to that identity. It's 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.320 it's weird to swing all the way to the other side, 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.600 because again I started feeling uncomfortable and like uncomfortable on 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.000 both ends of the spectrum. But it's the thing that 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.840 I've gotten a lot more used to talking about queerness. 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.600 For a while, I think I felt like I didn't 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.480 have the credentials or the knowledge or the history, or 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.360 didn't know about the history behind us. I couldn't. I 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.880 didn't feel like I was qualified to talk about queerness generally. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.960 But then I realized, I'm just talking about myself and 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.640 how I'm working through things every day, and at this 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:18.400 workplace anyways, at this at this company, it's super accepted. 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.480 I think for me. When we were developing the show, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.360 you know, neither Kathy nor I have had jobs where 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:31.800 our queerness is defined in that job, and so navigating 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:34.439 how the show would incorporate that, I think we were 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.640 both afraid, like Kathy was saying, that we would be 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.559 coming off as quote unquote experts. And that's the thing 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:44.880 we really didn't want for the show, because the experiences 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.559 in the LGBTQ community are so diverse that nobody is 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.600 really like an expert. So I think the thing we 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.240 pushed towards is what we love about radio is doing 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.800 really story driven work and letting people speak from their 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:03.280 personal experience um and that has I think enabled us 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:07.120 to feel much more comfortable in these host roles as 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.800 like professional gays, because really all anyone on the show 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.240 is responsible for is telling their own story. Open. When 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.400 you were talking about how you have all these other 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.600 considerations with being out of work and not just being gay, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:23.559 can you guys go into that a little bit more 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.440 and talk about how maybe being professionally gay has changed 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.760 that dynamic. Sure. What I was sort of referencing is 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.319 I think what we have found a lot in this 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.320 project we're doing out at work, which is that I 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.880 think people think about the concept being out at work 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.360 as a yes or no question like are you out? 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.560 Are you not out? Uh? And in truth, the answers 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.280 are much more nuanced and much more complicated, and there's 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.160 a lot to navigate and just aside from are you 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.120 out or not in the everyday interactions. And so for me, like, 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:58.880 I think the interactions that I've had around being gay 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.080 in the workplace how have been a lot more subtle. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.679 They've been like I said before, you know, talking about 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:08.880 partners or I've also experienced the thing where maybe female 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.800 coworkers see me as the token ke coworker. So there's 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:19.360 a lot of fashion advice and um uh maybe wanting 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.280 to talk about sexual escapades because there's an assumption that 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.000 like I maybe game to talk about that, which maybe 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.040 I am, maybe I'm not. But it fair. You do 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:30.400 give me passion advice, that's true. I do give you 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:35.320 fashion advice. But you're a special exception. So you know 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.720 you you do that subtle navigation every day. And I 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.280 should say, like in the spectrum of the the LGBT 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.840 experience at work, that is a very easy and subtle 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:47.760 thing to have to deal with. We've heard from people 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.240 who have to deal with you know, how do you 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.160 navigate sharing your pronouns in the workplace, How do you 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:58.400 navigate transition in the workplace? How do you navigate if 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.480 you might get five aired for coming out? So those 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.040 are sort of the big things that this project is 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.880 asking um forgetting the second part of the question, Oh, 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.959 how does being a professional k change that? It's funny 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.319 because it's in my job title now, so anyone who's 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.360 meaning me it's like part of the it's part you know, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.400 it might as well be on my business card like 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:26.480 noted homosexual. Um, So that that has changed, and that 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.240 in some ways it makes it way easier to navigate 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.120 because it's it's just on its face what it is. Yeah. 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.679 And I used to signal that on my resume, that 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.160 sort of thing, because I didn't want to work with 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.199 people that weren't going to be okay with it, and 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.679 now it is it is kind of I mean, I 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.240 should put on my website, to be honest. So, as 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.200 you say, it's it's a lot more complicated than just 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.319 deciding whether to be out or not at work and 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.240 then just being done with it. And you did an 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.920 episode called does Your Boss Know You're Gay? What are 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.000 some of the stories that you uncovered doing that episod 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.240 owdn the things that you learned about navigating all that right, 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.440 So we talked to a teacher who you know, you 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.400 hear this phrase thrown around sometimes when you talk about 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.559 being gay in the workplace, which is married on Sunday, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.320 fired on Monday. Um. And it's this idea that you 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.560 can have the legal rights of marriage in this country, 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.199 but if your employer is not okay with it, you 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.720 could lose employment. Um. And we talked to a teacher 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.800 who quite literally had that happened to him. Um. He 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.559 got married. He had been working as a teacher and 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.240 then a substitute teacher at this one school for many years. Um. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.960 And then when he shared on Facebook that he was 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.320 planning to get married, he was let go from his job. 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.400 It was a it was a Catholic high school. One 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.040 of the things that struck me about it was that 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.040 he was he was sort of out at work before that. 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.920 His colleagues and his principle knew that he was gay 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.680 and it and it goes to the confusion when you 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.559 might have an employer who you know at the higher 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.440 levels has different values than your immediate co workers. So 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.880 it's like he was out in one way, but then 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.640 he became two out for for his employer. And I 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.560 that seems like one of the subtle, nuanced ways that 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.120 it isn't just about, you know, it isn't just one 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.080 decision whether to be out or not. It's who you 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.240 come out to. Oh. Absolutely, And I mean we should 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.599 say that that teacher's name is Lonnie Billard. Um. And 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:20.600 I also want to shout out our producer Matt Collette, 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:24.360 who handled the reporting on that story. Um. Yeah, and 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.320 I think you're absolutely right. Like the thing that we 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:29.320 have heard from a lot of people who have responded 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.040 to us in this project is We've heard from a 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:36.920 lot of educators, especially like teachers and principles who I 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.960 think I have to really think about this and really 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.000 think about what it means to be out at work 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.040 and what it means to be out to their students 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.240 UM and there seems to be a lot of nuance 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.240 there and how you figure that out as a teacher. YEA. 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.200 After your episode, you asked people to send in their 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:00.400 experiences of being lgbt Q at work. What are some 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:02.960 of the other things that you've found from that Some 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.840 examples that we've had come in through our survey. I've 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.840 seen a couple of people at least who have chosen 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.560 to wear like little buttons that have their pronouns on them, 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.360 and that's like a very clever way of handling being 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.480 out at the workplace. We've also seen people who have 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:23.000 shared UH their transition with a boss and then that 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.280 boss went to um HR and then it was shared 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.520 with the entire company. So we've also seen people who 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.240 try to control who they come out to and then 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.320 sort of in the company, not knowing how to handle it, 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.200 it ends up coming out to everyone UM and then 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:40.840 also we see a lot of people who fall in 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.800 this gray area category of sort of out to some people, 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:47.760 not out to everyone, or maybe they are out about 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:52.440 their gender identity but not out about their sexual identity. Um, 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.240 so it takes all forms. It's like a thing that 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.320 we we've seen a lot of in this survey. We 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.479 found that a lot of especially people who identify as bisexual, 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.640 feel conflicted in their responsibility to be out at work, 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.560 especially if they're currently in an opposite sex partnership in 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.960 which maybe their queerness is not obvious if they are 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.040 talking about their partner. So we've had We've heard from 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.200 a lot of bisexual people saying I'd like to be 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.360 out or I'm not sure what my responsibility to share 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.200 this with my coworkers is. Because there's also a lot 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.840 of stigma against bisexual people, so sharing it comes with 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:32.280 all of these unfortunate attachments where people assume promiscuity or 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:37.160 people assume, um, you know, quote unquote greediness. So that 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:41.000 we saw a lot of bisexual angst in responses. It's 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.240 interesting you bring that up. I wrote a story about 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.640 the bisexual pay gap, and I got so many responses 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.080 of people not believing me that that was a thing. Yeah, 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.800 that is that is a very real thing that people 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.800 I think for a long time have assumes that bisexuality 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.680 is stop on the way to gay town is like 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.159 a very popular saying, which you know, I think right 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:12.240 now there's this real claiming of bisexuality as its own 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.320 true thing and a lot of bisexual pride coming out, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.840 and it's unfortunate to hear that you've got that kind 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.879 of pushed back. One thing I noticed about both your 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.920 episode and what you're telling us now about what you're 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.600 hearing from your listeners is that if you're LGBTQ, there's 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.919 just so much more planning and and and deliberation and 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.359 thought that has to go into things that you know, 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.640 if you're straight and you work in an environment where 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.280 that's kind of the accepted mainstream, you don't have to 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:41.840 think about So you don't have to think about if 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.600 I put a picture of my you know, spouse or 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.879 partner up, is that going to make me have a 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:49.960 conversation I don't want to have, or put my job 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:51.960 at risk or all these things. You just you sort 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.160 of do it, and then you know, if that isn't 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.120 your situation, you're kind of stuck in this position where 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.280 you like, do I want to politicize my identity, all 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.080 of these questions that a lot of people at the 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.840 luxury of not thinking about. Yeah, that's sort of like, 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.800 that's sort of just the privilege of being in the majority, 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.920 I think, and until um society shifts in a way 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.719 where it's completely quote unquote normal, it's it's just like 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.800 in the majority. For people to be queer at work, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:21.199 I think that's always going to be a thing that 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.119 everybody has to negotiate. I mean, at this at this 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:30.359 job UM at lecent Our, our team Nancy were majority queer, 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.720 so I've never had to think about that. But I 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.479 can see absolutely any other job that we've been in 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.159 where I had to negotiate that without even thinking about it. 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.119 Just you always just know that it's a thing that 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.800 you have to negotiate. Right, Well, I think there's two 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.119 interesting things here. I mean, like I remember UM for 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.800 the first episode, I talked to a coworker who sort 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.600 of throughout this challenge where he was like, just try 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.520 to go a day and not mention your partner. Just 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.600 try in casual conversation, you know, someone asks you what 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.359 you're doing for the weekend, you know, you have to 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.400 think about do I mention my partner that we're doing 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:10.080 this thing together. So there's there's I think a camp 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.879 of thinking that is like it just comes up all 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.159 the time. I think one thing that surprised us in 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.800 the results of this survey too, is people who came 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.639 back and really said, it doesn't feel relevant to share 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.600 my sexuality, to share my gender identity. It's a thing 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.280 that I don't feel. It's not that I am ashamed, 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.560 it's not that I am in the closet, it's that 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.639 I just don't think it's something that I want to 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.400 talk about at work. Um, So there's definitely that out 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.520 there of people who feel like it doesn't have a 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.560 place in the workplace, even if they are out in 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.280 their own lives. Yeah, it seems like there are just 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.439 so many subtle ways people can experience being gay at 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:54.960 work that aren't necessarily outright discrimination exactly. Yeah. Well, thank 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.680 you so much for coming on and talking to us. Yeah, 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.760 and we look forward to the big reveal episode coming 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.440 up where you share your the results of the all 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:06.640 of the research you've been doing with with your listeners. 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:13.960 Stay tuned for that episode. Magic episode, throw the cape 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:19.120 over and be like here it is with you. Thank 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:27.320 you so much for having us. Thank you guys. And 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.160 Kathie and Tobin's current set up, they said they don't 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.040 really have to even think about their sexual identities. They 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.280 said that most of the people they work with are 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.439 queer and they can come to work and just do work, 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:42.119 and that's kind of the ideal. The former CEO of 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.160 Goldman Sachs, Marty Schavaz, said that's exactly why he encouraged 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.040 people to be out at work, because then they can 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.200 bring their whole selves to work and therefore be happier, healthier, 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:56.000 and more productive, which makes sense. There was another survey 0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.239 of lgbt Q business leaders that found that people who 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.199 were in the closet said they were spending way too 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.119 much energy pretending to be straight and as a result 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.560 that they weren't working as hard for their company. I mean, 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:08.200 it makes sense, like if you have to think about 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:10.680 your sex life basically at work and how it could 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:12.639 hurt your job, I don't know how you would be 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.760 able to do your job to the best of your ability. 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.960 It does seem like the ideal scenario that you'd be 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:20.800 able to just be open and not have to think 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.080 too much about sharing your identity with your colleagues or 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.680 your boss, UM, and of course there's a productivity angle too, 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.320 you know. Then again, the experiences on this as we're learning, 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.240 are so varied that there are so many layers of 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.360 things that you have to think about that everybody's experience 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.040 is different. So that's why I'm really looking forward to 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:42.440 opening Cathy's upcoming episode UM sharing all their listener feedback. 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.439 And with that, let's move on to half bake takes 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.600 half fake takes. If you have a half bake take, 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.520 you can share it with us by calling two one 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.560 to six one seven zero one six six and leaving 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:58.240 us a voicemail. We might play it on the show. 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:00.600 This week, we have a listener half baked take about 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:06.320 breakfast at work. Hi, Hello, ladies, my name is Daniela. 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.960 I'm calling you from Austin, Texas, and uh I guess 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.639 my half baked take today is you know, if you 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:17.359 have some type of power over you know, the organization 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:20.280 spurs and you know you're in a position where you 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:24.840 can actually bring you know, breakfast with the entire organization, 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:29.400 just please let you know the workers know that you're 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:34.840 doing that. Some of us try to wait a healthy Um, 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.159