WEBVTT - Bonus: In Conversation with Galit Atlas 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:11.400 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.800 Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.840 Family Secrets. As we prepare the new season with ten 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.919 brand new episodes. From time to time we're able to 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.160 drop a really powerful conversation with a great thinker, an 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:31.600 illuminating voice, especially for Family Secrets listeners. So it is 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.520 my great pleasure to share with you today's bonus conversation 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:40.199 with esteemed psychoanalyst Dr Galit Atlas. Galt's latest book is 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:45.519 the brilliant Emotional Inheritance A Therapist, Her Patience and the 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:59.560 Legacy of Trauma. How did you come to become a psychoanalyst? 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.639 I think I was born a psychronost, but I think 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:08.280 it starts for many people. We we are first patients 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:15.280 and we get from that chair into the world of 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:21.160 therapy or psychoanalysis, and then slowly, you know, we moved 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.039 to the other chair of the therapist. And I think 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.240 for me, I became a patient when I was twenty 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.480 years old, and I still remember the first time when 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.759 I came to psychoanalysis and my therapist asks, so why 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:37.800 are you here? As we all ask, and I looked 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:41.679 at her and I said, I don't know. I really 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.640 had no idea, And so as you can imagine, years later, 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.560 I understand in retrospect why I was there, and I 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:54.160 help other people also why they're there. Yeah, gosh, that 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.840 makes so much sense. And I would imagine it's just 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.800 as you were speaking, I was almost picturing like a 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:04.160 lock and a key, that feeling, that feeling of something 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.360 being unlocked, or like a light getting switched on, and 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:12.280 something that was sort of unknown to you becomes a 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:17.280 little bit more knowable. Yeah, this this thing that you 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.919 you feel but you don't know, and you don't even 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.360 know if it's real. It's a feeling that you have, 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.520 and I think that's how I entered in my therapy. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.760 But it's true for for any anything, right, and especially 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:36.360 for secrets, right, and something we feel but but we 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.360 don't really understand what that feeling is. Well, and what 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.280 you just said of like we don't even know if 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:47.400 it's real. I think that that is so universal. Um, 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.160 you know that that that feeling, And you know, one 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.960 of the things about family secrets is that, UM, so 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.160 often with my guests there was a period of time 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:04.640 where they were haunted by something myself included without even 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.760 knowing what it was that was haunting them, which of 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:13.240 course makes the haunting that much more haunting. You write 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.880 in your book at one point, you know, demons tend 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.440 to vanish when we turn on the lights, and you know, 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.240 if we're if we're stumbling around in the darkness. Um, 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.760 we just don't know what it is that is forming 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.520 our behavior, in our in our inner lives, right right. 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.160 And I think that I really call it ghosts, the 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:39.160 ghosts of the unsaid and the unspeakable. It's those things 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:43.800 that actually haunt us. So the tagline for for family 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.200 Secrets is, and I thought about it often when I 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:50.120 first read your book, the secrets that are kept from us, 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.120 the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:58.640 keep from ourselves. Um, so let's let's start with the 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.800 secrets that are kept from us. What is you know? 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:03.720 This is such a I mean, that's a question you 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.240 could probably spend two hours answering, But like, what what 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.040 is a legacy emotionally of the secrets that are kept 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.520 from us? Do you know the secrets that are kept 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:18.080 from us? Are are could be very very different, right, 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:23.640 I really focus on secrets that are purposely kept from 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:29.320 us and secrets that we are you know, we're kept 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.280 from us, but it's there there, but we just never 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.440 are not allowed to talk about them. And and of 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.640 course those are things that happened sometimes before we were 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.960 even born or very early in our lives, and times 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.880 when we cannot even remember and know anything about, and 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.280 that there is a decision that made that this is, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.520 this might hurt us, this might hurt the children, or 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:03.960 this might this is something too shameful to share. And 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.960 I think when we talk about legacy is how those 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.400 secrets are actually alive inside our minds and how we 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.200 hold them as our own material, as if there were 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.520 they belong to us. Yeah, you you write in your book, 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:25.040 um you quote the psychoanalysts Maria Torrek and Nicholas Abraham 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.279 saying what haunts are not the dead, but the gaps 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.440 left within us by the secrets of others. I think 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:36.120 this is the second kind of secrets, that are six 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:40.120 things that we consciously are aware of. Right you know 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.920 where you where your family came from, or in the book, 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.520 I talk about my my own family trauma that I 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.760 know that my mother lost her brother and he drowned 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.200 when she was a child, and he was fourteen years old. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:58.440 And this information is known to me. It's not a secret, 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.599 and yet it is kept as a secret, which change 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.279 that I'm not allowed to talk about it. This is 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.960 an emotional material or you know that is not almost 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:16.800 there's no permission to discuss and therefore you have to 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.400 keep it in an isolated place in your own mind 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:23.400 and kind of dissociated, right it didn't forget about it 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:27.400 and and not not remember and keep it almost as 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.080 a secret from yourself. I imagine that must come up 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.960 for you a lot in your practice. You know, that 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.120 feeling of people coming to therapy not quite knowing why 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.599 something just doesn't add up, or something doesn't make sense, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.240 or there's a kind of pervasive or general feeling of 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.200 unhappiness or or anxiety or whatever it might be. How 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.159 do people get at that? What is that kind of 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.480 untangling process? Like, I'm sure it's different in every in 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.719 every instance, but what, um, how do we explore that 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.920 which we don't even know we're trying to explore. It's 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.320 a good question because, as you said, people come to 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:11.240 therapy with what we call the presented problem, and that 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:15.680 is the problem that anyone who comes to therapist as 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.640 I come to therapy because I suffered from or because 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.520 like when when my therapist asked me, why are you 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.520 here right? What is the presented problem? And and I 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.720 actually think in retrospect that for me, the presented problem 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.280 was that I didn't know right. That was the problem 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.960 that I presented right away in the first session. I 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.160 think that that is that is true for most people. 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.280 We come with some something that we want to explore, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:49.560 and the secrets are actually and they find their own 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:54.760 way into this room and the secret keep themselves, but 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:59.000 they also explore themselves at some point and things come up, 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:01.480 you know. And I think that's part of it, is 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:06.000 that in the process of therapy, part of what I 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.960 listened to is the gaps. The gap, Those gaps the 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.440 things that somebody tells you something and you follow them 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.000 and you listen to what they say, but she also 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.240 listen to what they don't say, where some some moment 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.400 there is something that goes somewhere else and you feel 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.600 it's almost in your body, do you know what I mean? 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.400 That something is missing there, and that listening to the 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.800 gaps is where we look for the secrets. We look 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.160 for the secrets where where there are gaps. M hmm. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.080 I love that. Um. That makes so much sense. So 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.560 what about you? You're you're talking about the kind of 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:56.400 secret that maybe is within a family UM that is known, 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.440 known but not known, there's no permission to talk about it, 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:04.320 what not? The kind of secret that really is um buried, like, 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.719 is not not visible, really unknown? What does that do 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:14.720 to people? Mm? Hm? You know those secrets and are 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:20.079 the secrets that are on purposely are kept us right 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:25.800 with with the fantasy, I would say that people can 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:31.400 actually keep secrets from each other. And we know that 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.040 we communicate with each other in so many ways detachment 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:39.920 and unconscious communication and the way that we live inside 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:45.040 each other and and really feel each other. And so 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.240 if I go back to the gaps, that is something 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:50.960 that we we feel and we don't always know where 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.680 it comes from. We have that feeling that you describe 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.320 and we don't know what it is. And I think 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.520 that that is something that you see even in therapy. 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:08.360 It's something that we talk about. But but those secrets 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.800 are are not visible even even to the therapists and 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.480 the patients until they appear on their own, until something happens. 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.440 And and you know, in the book, I talk a 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.640 lot about about our own investigation. People go and ask 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:29.480 family members, for example, and they have a theory about 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.640 what happened, and they go to their mother or their 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:36.800 father and discibling, and suddenly new information appears. But in 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.560 order to be ready to know, for us to know, 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.679 to go ask and actually be ready to hear the answer, 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:51.000 and very often there should be some process that leads 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.280 us there two to the right question and to the 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:59.560 capacity to know the answer. I think many times we don't. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:04.080 Even One very common example that I can give you 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.720 is that people tell me that very quickly they have 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.800 what we call a her moment. And I think that 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:18.920 that is actually about those family experiences that they knew 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.600 about but never put them together, never actually made the 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.120 link between two things. And so I think that's another 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.960 way of secrets to come up, because some of the 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:36.439 work on secrets is about making connections. It's about about 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.680 listening to something and saying, oh, actually I know something 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.760 from my history, and now I can link it to 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.880 something that is happening in my life now. And that 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:53.280 requires a couple of things, right. The idea of distrusting 0:11:54.480 --> 0:12:02.000 one's own stealings like distrusting one's own reality and and thinking, well, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.640 maybe that's not real, you know, the denying that feeling. 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.240 So there's there's that, and then there's also readiness. I've 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.439 now had these deep conversations I think seventy of them 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.720 at this point for for this podcast with people who 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.280 have you know, contended with really intense secrets in in 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.560 all different kinds of ways. And one of the things 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.560 that I've seen because I'm always looking for in a way, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.600 what what the threat is between you know, all of 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.480 the stories, because all the stories are so different. But 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:38.439 one of them is that when we find out feels 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:44.120 at least as critical as what we find exactly exactly, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.600 and I think we need to be ready for that 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.920 because sometimes this is it is it is too traumatic 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.880 to find out a secret. So I think when we 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.880 find out is very crucial. And of course in the 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.200 process of therapy, a lot of what we do is 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:11.880 preparing ourselves to finding out the the unknown and being 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.520 ready to make to make those links that that into 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.199 some degree open our eyes. Elly. Do you think that 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:24.760 every family has secrets? Yeah, I do think that secrets, 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:27.880 the siccrets could be very different from each other. Right, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:33.840 It could be because you anything we can't face becomes 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:38.679 the secret, and from others an altar from ourselves, but 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.440 anything that is shameful. And therefore many secrets are about 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:49.920 sex and sexuality, affairs and sexual identity, and of course 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:56.240 trauma often becomes a secret. And so many families actually 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:00.199 have secrets that are related to a history of trauma. 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:04.040 You know that the parents do not want to talk 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.360 about it. I mean, we have a lot of material 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.000 that we cannot face and don't feel comfortable with, and 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:15.640 that material, emotional material, is pushed, you know, to to 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.160 some secretive parts of our mind and and become the secret. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:26.080 And I think, I think we're hardwired not to want 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:31.480 to hurt our children, have our children know things that 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.600 might be painful. We're hardwired to protect our children. And 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.400 I think so often parents when they when they keep 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.480 a secret, are keeping that secret because they think that 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.640 they're doing their children, they're doing the right thing for 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.160 their for their children, you know, in the name of love, 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:55.080 when in fact there's really secret seep. There's there's no 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:59.480 such thing as a kept secret. Ultimately, they they have 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.520 an impact act even when we don't, even if even 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.880 if we can't kind of see them or name them 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.920 or apprehend them. Yeah. Absolutely, I think that that is 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:14.480 really the main thing that I hear from patients, those 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.160 who find out about the secrets and those who keep secrets, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:23.840 is that they frame it around protection. I think. I 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.320 think people usually don't tell themselves that they try to 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:33.320 protect themselves actually, And you know, I think remembering, for example, 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:40.440 a trauma is very painful, so you don't only want 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:42.680 to protect your children from your trauma, you also want 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:46.480 to protect yourself from remembering. And you prefer to forget 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.960 and even shameful things, right, There are things from people's 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.920 history that that they prefer to forget and they prefer 0:15:55.040 --> 0:16:00.200 to not tell anybody, and that becomes a secret, which 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.320 means also not to themselves. But I totally agree with 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:08.000 you that one of the main reasons, at least the 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:14.480 rationalization around it, secrets between parents and children is meant 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:19.960 originally to protect the child from a knowledge that the 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:25.040 parent thinks might be too complicated. And think about it, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:26.840 I mean, there's a lot of efferent when we think 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:31.320 about reproduction, right and these days, how children are born. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.320 There are a lot of things that people don't know 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:42.840 and we'll never know, you know, about ideas idea for example, 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.880 for many many people, that's the secret. Many many children 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:48.960 do not know that they were born through ideas, and 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:53.120 the parents prefer to keep it as a secret. And 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.360 I think there are many other ways that you know, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.160 even you know what things that happened early in life 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.080 when when we were babies, we will we might never know, right, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.520 but those times really impact our lives. They shape our lives. 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:19.439 We'll be right back. What do you see as the 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.280 cost of secret keeping? You know? One of one of 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.520 the things that um, it's heartbreaking that I hear often 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.680 it's sort of a two fer. It's a double whammy. Um. 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.720 Someone makes a discovery that a secret has been kept 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:37.560 from them, and then perhaps they they explore that or 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.119 they go to someone in their family and say I 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.960 found this out. And then they're asked then to keep 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.880 the secret from others. They're they're asked to hold it. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.639 So they have a combination of of having it been 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:56.200 kept from them and um, the conundrum or the dilemma 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:01.240 of whether they can speak it. Yeah, and the burden 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:06.480 right of keeping it's keeping a secret and asking right, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.320 but they're having that responsibility. Something really interesting that you 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.840 said is that sometimes people tell themselves what I'm doing. 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.959 I'm doing this, I'm keeping the secret to protect you know, 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.080 X person or why person, when in fact that's very 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.760 noble and you know, kind and loving and of course 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.159 the way that we all want to think about ourselves. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:33.680 But um, often it's really that they're keeping it because 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:36.280 they're protecting themselves because they don't want to They don't 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.480 want to think about they don't they don't want to 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.600 feel it again, they don't want to re traumatize themselves. Yeah, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.119 and they don't want to define themselves around that, right, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.399 if you think about right, many many secrets are about 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:54.199 infidelity and affairs and and things that happening marriages. If 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.320 you don't define yourself as a cheater, you would and 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.199 if you and if you cheat it you want to 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.080 forget it. She don't want to remember that you have 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.199 done that. So I think that that is one reason 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.120 that we want to forget. We want to keep secrets 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:13.600 because it's kind of attacks are identity and the way 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.119 we think of ourselves. If something terrible happened to you 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.720 on the street, right and you were you know, you 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.840 were attacked, you know, many people keep those things as 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.960 a secret. And I think some of it is the 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.159 shame and the embarrassment of being a victim, especially in 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.840 the past. And if you think about Holocaust survivors, there 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.040 was many years where people didn't talk about it. It 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.919 was it was it was shameful to be a victim, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.720 because being a victim is being so helpless, and and 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:52.439 there is something deeply shameful about feeling helpless and to 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.760 be defined that way, or to be afraid of being 0:19:54.760 --> 0:20:00.240 defined that way. Yeah, even by yourself. It's about identity. 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.520 It's about who who I am. And I think often 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.280 those things that happened to us are those that are 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:11.440 so to speak, and not me experience. Right, they're outside 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:16.080 of the way I define myself. And then and then 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.520 I have to struggle with that. The best emotional way 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.399 for me to do that is to erase it from 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.720 the right, from my memory, I would say, to dissociated, 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.080 to deny it, to use to use defense mechanisms to 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.640 really push it away and not even remember it, right, 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:37.960 and definitely keep it as a secret to nobody else 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:40.679 will ever see me that way and know that I 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.639 am back because it's it's and not me experience. What 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:50.399 is the mechanism um with which someone can really tuck 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.440 a piece of knowledge, a secret away, to the extent 0:20:54.680 --> 0:21:02.320 that they really don't consciously hold it anymore. They could 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:07.000 pass so lie detector test. Where does it go and 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.960 how does it act in that kind of situation. That's 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.200 a good question. You know. We have we have a 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:18.479 line of defense mechanisms, right of defenses that service in 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:24.040 that way from dissociation. Really, and I think the dissociation 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.400 is a big one when it comes to trauma, for example, 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.840 to repression and denial, and those are really you know, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:40.840 those are very effective mechanisms that allows us to forget 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:48.800 anything that feels threatening to our psyche anything. And you know, 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:55.280 it's very interesting because our mind will basically attack any 0:21:55.320 --> 0:22:03.159 information that makes us anxious or or too afraid or 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.760 two or too threatened if especially if it threatens the 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.320 the you know, if if if it could cause us 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.240 some kind of fragmentation or breakdown, our mind will really 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.120 help us in that way. I think the problem with 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:21.000 that is that many of those secret go go into 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.159 our body and are expressed through our body. Right, So 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.919 I like to think about it or describe it as 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.320 like a secret contract that our unconscious has with our body, 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.919 to say, you know what, let's make sure that she 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.639 doesn't know that. So let's let's keep it, you know, 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.879 let's keep it away from her consciousness, and then some 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.480 of the material is expressed through the body. That's fascinating. 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.560 How does that manifest itself when our minds remembers our 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:55.440 bodies are we have to forget because otherwise our bodies 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.080 have to remember what our minds cannot remember. And in 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.639 what and what kind of ways does that express itself 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.280 in the body of the mind has shut it down. 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:09.640 I think that what it's what we call symptoms, right, 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.960 headaches and all all those somatic symptoms that are real. 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.320 We don't make them up. That really our body will 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:24.520 express for our back pain, headaches, is even obsessions and 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:28.600 all of those things that we know that are the 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.240 symptoms that are either held through the body or we 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:36.000 don't understand in other ways emotional symptoms and the understanding 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:40.360 it really when that is when that when the mind remembers, 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.520 the body is allowed to forget. But as long as 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:47.600 the mind cannot remember, and that's what you were talking about, 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:50.159 the defense mechanism, right, as long as the mind is 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.560 not allowed to remember this because it's too threatening, then 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:57.080 the body has to do some of that work right 0:23:57.520 --> 0:24:00.439 of remembering. It plays itself in the body. And I 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.000 didn't know that the body keeps the score right. The 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:05.800 body is there is a system there, and the body 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:10.720 is there to help the system survive. So I would 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:15.320 imagine that's where symptoms of anxiety or panic attacks come from, 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:23.640 like a big red flashing light warning warning. Yeah, panic attacks, anxiety. 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:27.280 And I think I'm talking even about things that are 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:32.360 even less less obvious than like wright and back pain, 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:37.560 eggs Ama. You know all of these things that have 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.119 that are connected to our right, that express our mind, 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:45.479 on our skin, on our in our bones, in our 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.399 many many kind of illness and physical illness. That is 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:55.199 the burden of the the unknown and the unspeakable on 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:58.360 our body. I'm going to quote you back to yourself. 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.240 There's um from the from the introduction of your book. 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.600 These are your words. The secrets we keep from ourselves 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.080 are meant to protect us by distorting reality and to 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:14.360 help us hold unpleasant information far from our consciousness. In 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:17.720 order to do that, we use our defense mechanisms. We 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:22.120 idealize those we don't want to feel ambivalent about. Identify 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.560 with the parent who abused us split the world into 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.560 good and bad. In order to organize the world as 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:32.600 safe and predictable. We project into the other what we 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.360 don't want to feel or what makes us too anxious 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.439 to know about ourselves. Yeah, so could you talk a 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:44.080 little bit about this idea of projection which I think 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.400 people so often you know here and don't really understand. 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.240 And you know, this way we have of organizing the 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:57.520 world so that, you know, so that we can tolerate it. Yeah, 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:00.480 you know, the secrets well keep from our selves and 0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:04.000 our defense mechanism that is so effectively helps us with 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:08.680 that is based on the really the the idea that 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:12.840 of surviving, right, we need to feel safe, We need 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:15.879 to survive. We need to think that the world is 0:26:15.920 --> 0:26:20.760 not so scary, that our impulses are not so overwhelming, 0:26:21.359 --> 0:26:25.280 that people are not so dangerous, and that we could 0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:28.879 differentiate between good and bad that we will. And I 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:31.000 think these days when the world, you know, after this 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:36.359 really intends a few years, the world became even to 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:39.320 some degree or even more chaotic, and aggression is everywhere, 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:43.200 and you know, and I think we use even more 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.199 of our defenses because we want to make sure that 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.879 we're safe that and that we could differentiate. For example, 0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:54.000 splitting is one defense mechanism, right between good and bad. 0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:56.560 I want to know, like in the fairy tale, who's 0:26:56.600 --> 0:27:00.560 the good mother, who's the bad mother? Where is it 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:07.680 safe and where where the danger is? And if it's 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:11.560 too mixed then you know, like Children's fairy tale for 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:16.240 children's right, they are they help the children organize the world, 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:21.800 organize it and divide it into good and bad so 0:27:22.560 --> 0:27:26.119 the child can really feel safe. And that's where it 0:27:26.200 --> 0:27:28.600 comes from, right there, This is what the goal of 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:33.480 that making sure that we feel safe in the world. 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:38.360 And so when we talk about projection, projection also supposed 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:42.560 to help us feel safe in the world and and 0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:47.120 supposed to help us deal with our own unpleasant feelings 0:27:47.359 --> 0:27:49.920 about and things that we don't want to know about ourselves. 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:55.119 So I don't want to know that I am a 0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:59.399