1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. As we prepare the new season with ten 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: brand new episodes. From time to time we're able to 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: drop a really powerful conversation with a great thinker, an 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: illuminating voice, especially for Family Secrets listeners. So it is 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: my great pleasure to share with you today's bonus conversation 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: with esteemed psychoanalyst Dr Galit Atlas. Galt's latest book is 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: the brilliant Emotional Inheritance A Therapist, Her Patience and the 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: Legacy of Trauma. How did you come to become a psychoanalyst? 11 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: I think I was born a psychronost, but I think 12 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: it starts for many people. We we are first patients 13 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: and we get from that chair into the world of 14 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: therapy or psychoanalysis, and then slowly, you know, we moved 15 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: to the other chair of the therapist. And I think 16 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: for me, I became a patient when I was twenty 17 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: years old, and I still remember the first time when 18 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: I came to psychoanalysis and my therapist asks, so why 19 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: are you here? As we all ask, and I looked 20 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: at her and I said, I don't know. I really 21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: had no idea, And so as you can imagine, years later, 22 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: I understand in retrospect why I was there, and I 23 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: help other people also why they're there. Yeah, gosh, that 24 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: makes so much sense. And I would imagine it's just 25 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: as you were speaking, I was almost picturing like a 26 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: lock and a key, that feeling, that feeling of something 27 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: being unlocked, or like a light getting switched on, and 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: something that was sort of unknown to you becomes a 29 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: little bit more knowable. Yeah, this this thing that you 30 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: you feel but you don't know, and you don't even 31 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: know if it's real. It's a feeling that you have, 32 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: and I think that's how I entered in my therapy. 33 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: But it's true for for any anything, right, and especially 34 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: for secrets, right, and something we feel but but we 35 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: don't really understand what that feeling is. Well, and what 36 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: you just said of like we don't even know if 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: it's real. I think that that is so universal. Um, 38 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: you know that that that feeling, And you know, one 39 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: of the things about family secrets is that, UM, so 40 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: often with my guests there was a period of time 41 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: where they were haunted by something myself included without even 42 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: knowing what it was that was haunting them, which of 43 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: course makes the haunting that much more haunting. You write 44 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: in your book at one point, you know, demons tend 45 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: to vanish when we turn on the lights, and you know, 46 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: if we're if we're stumbling around in the darkness. Um, 47 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: we just don't know what it is that is forming 48 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: our behavior, in our in our inner lives, right right. 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: And I think that I really call it ghosts, the 50 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: ghosts of the unsaid and the unspeakable. It's those things 51 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: that actually haunt us. So the tagline for for family 52 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: Secrets is, and I thought about it often when I 53 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: first read your book, the secrets that are kept from us, 54 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 55 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. Um, so let's let's start with the 56 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: secrets that are kept from us. What is you know? 57 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: This is such a I mean, that's a question you 58 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: could probably spend two hours answering, But like, what what 59 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: is a legacy emotionally of the secrets that are kept 60 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: from us? Do you know the secrets that are kept 61 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: from us? Are are could be very very different, right, 62 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: I really focus on secrets that are purposely kept from 63 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: us and secrets that we are you know, we're kept 64 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: from us, but it's there there, but we just never 65 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: are not allowed to talk about them. And and of 66 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: course those are things that happened sometimes before we were 67 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: even born or very early in our lives, and times 68 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: when we cannot even remember and know anything about, and 69 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: that there is a decision that made that this is, 70 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: this might hurt us, this might hurt the children, or 71 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: this might this is something too shameful to share. And 72 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: I think when we talk about legacy is how those 73 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: secrets are actually alive inside our minds and how we 74 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: hold them as our own material, as if there were 75 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: they belong to us. Yeah, you you write in your book, 76 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: um you quote the psychoanalysts Maria Torrek and Nicholas Abraham 77 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: saying what haunts are not the dead, but the gaps 78 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: left within us by the secrets of others. I think 79 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: this is the second kind of secrets, that are six 80 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: things that we consciously are aware of. Right you know 81 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: where you where your family came from, or in the book, 82 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: I talk about my my own family trauma that I 83 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: know that my mother lost her brother and he drowned 84 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: when she was a child, and he was fourteen years old. 85 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: And this information is known to me. It's not a secret, 86 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: and yet it is kept as a secret, which change 87 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: that I'm not allowed to talk about it. This is 88 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: an emotional material or you know that is not almost 89 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: there's no permission to discuss and therefore you have to 90 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: keep it in an isolated place in your own mind 91 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: and kind of dissociated, right it didn't forget about it 92 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: and and not not remember and keep it almost as 93 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: a secret from yourself. I imagine that must come up 94 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: for you a lot in your practice. You know, that 95 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: feeling of people coming to therapy not quite knowing why 96 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: something just doesn't add up, or something doesn't make sense, 97 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: or there's a kind of pervasive or general feeling of 98 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: unhappiness or or anxiety or whatever it might be. How 99 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: do people get at that? What is that kind of 100 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: untangling process? Like, I'm sure it's different in every in 101 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: every instance, but what, um, how do we explore that 102 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: which we don't even know we're trying to explore. It's 103 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: a good question because, as you said, people come to 104 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: therapy with what we call the presented problem, and that 105 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: is the problem that anyone who comes to therapist as 106 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: I come to therapy because I suffered from or because 107 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: like when when my therapist asked me, why are you 108 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: here right? What is the presented problem? And and I 109 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: actually think in retrospect that for me, the presented problem 110 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: was that I didn't know right. That was the problem 111 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: that I presented right away in the first session. I 112 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: think that that is that is true for most people. 113 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: We come with some something that we want to explore, 114 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: and the secrets are actually and they find their own 115 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: way into this room and the secret keep themselves, but 116 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: they also explore themselves at some point and things come up, 117 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's part of it, is 118 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: that in the process of therapy, part of what I 119 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: listened to is the gaps. The gap, Those gaps the 120 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: things that somebody tells you something and you follow them 121 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: and you listen to what they say, but she also 122 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: listen to what they don't say, where some some moment 123 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: there is something that goes somewhere else and you feel 124 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: it's almost in your body, do you know what I mean? 125 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: That something is missing there, and that listening to the 126 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: gaps is where we look for the secrets. We look 127 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: for the secrets where where there are gaps. M hmm. 128 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: I love that. Um. That makes so much sense. So 129 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: what about you? You're you're talking about the kind of 130 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: secret that maybe is within a family UM that is known, 131 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: known but not known, there's no permission to talk about it, 132 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: what not? The kind of secret that really is um buried, like, 133 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: is not not visible, really unknown? What does that do 134 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: to people? Mm? Hm? You know those secrets and are 135 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: the secrets that are on purposely are kept us right 136 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: with with the fantasy, I would say that people can 137 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: actually keep secrets from each other. And we know that 138 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: we communicate with each other in so many ways detachment 139 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: and unconscious communication and the way that we live inside 140 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: each other and and really feel each other. And so 141 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: if I go back to the gaps, that is something 142 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: that we we feel and we don't always know where 143 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: it comes from. We have that feeling that you describe 144 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: and we don't know what it is. And I think 145 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: that that is something that you see even in therapy. 146 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: It's something that we talk about. But but those secrets 147 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: are are not visible even even to the therapists and 148 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: the patients until they appear on their own, until something happens. 149 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: And and you know, in the book, I talk a 150 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: lot about about our own investigation. People go and ask 151 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: family members, for example, and they have a theory about 152 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: what happened, and they go to their mother or their 153 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: father and discibling, and suddenly new information appears. But in 154 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: order to be ready to know, for us to know, 155 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: to go ask and actually be ready to hear the answer, 156 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: and very often there should be some process that leads 157 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: us there two to the right question and to the 158 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: capacity to know the answer. I think many times we don't. 159 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: Even One very common example that I can give you 160 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: is that people tell me that very quickly they have 161 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: what we call a her moment. And I think that 162 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: that is actually about those family experiences that they knew 163 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: about but never put them together, never actually made the 164 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: link between two things. And so I think that's another 165 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: way of secrets to come up, because some of the 166 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: work on secrets is about making connections. It's about about 167 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: listening to something and saying, oh, actually I know something 168 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: from my history, and now I can link it to 169 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: something that is happening in my life now. And that 170 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: requires a couple of things, right. The idea of distrusting 171 00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: one's own stealings like distrusting one's own reality and and thinking, well, 172 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: maybe that's not real, you know, the denying that feeling. 173 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: So there's there's that, and then there's also readiness. I've 174 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: now had these deep conversations I think seventy of them 175 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: at this point for for this podcast with people who 176 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: have you know, contended with really intense secrets in in 177 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: all different kinds of ways. And one of the things 178 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: that I've seen because I'm always looking for in a way, 179 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: what what the threat is between you know, all of 180 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: the stories, because all the stories are so different. But 181 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: one of them is that when we find out feels 182 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: at least as critical as what we find exactly exactly, 183 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: and I think we need to be ready for that 184 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: because sometimes this is it is it is too traumatic 185 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: to find out a secret. So I think when we 186 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: find out is very crucial. And of course in the 187 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: process of therapy, a lot of what we do is 188 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: preparing ourselves to finding out the the unknown and being 189 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: ready to make to make those links that that into 190 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: some degree open our eyes. Elly. Do you think that 191 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: every family has secrets? Yeah, I do think that secrets, 192 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: the siccrets could be very different from each other. Right, 193 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: It could be because you anything we can't face becomes 194 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: the secret, and from others an altar from ourselves, but 195 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: anything that is shameful. And therefore many secrets are about 196 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: sex and sexuality, affairs and sexual identity, and of course 197 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: trauma often becomes a secret. And so many families actually 198 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: have secrets that are related to a history of trauma. 199 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: You know that the parents do not want to talk 200 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: about it. I mean, we have a lot of material 201 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: that we cannot face and don't feel comfortable with, and 202 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: that material, emotional material, is pushed, you know, to to 203 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: some secretive parts of our mind and and become the secret. 204 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: And I think, I think we're hardwired not to want 205 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: to hurt our children, have our children know things that 206 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: might be painful. We're hardwired to protect our children. And 207 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: I think so often parents when they when they keep 208 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: a secret, are keeping that secret because they think that 209 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: they're doing their children, they're doing the right thing for 210 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: their for their children, you know, in the name of love, 211 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: when in fact there's really secret seep. There's there's no 212 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: such thing as a kept secret. Ultimately, they they have 213 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: an impact act even when we don't, even if even 214 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: if we can't kind of see them or name them 215 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: or apprehend them. Yeah. Absolutely, I think that that is 216 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: really the main thing that I hear from patients, those 217 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: who find out about the secrets and those who keep secrets, 218 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: is that they frame it around protection. I think. I 219 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: think people usually don't tell themselves that they try to 220 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: protect themselves actually, And you know, I think remembering, for example, 221 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: a trauma is very painful, so you don't only want 222 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: to protect your children from your trauma, you also want 223 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: to protect yourself from remembering. And you prefer to forget 224 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: and even shameful things, right, There are things from people's 225 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: history that that they prefer to forget and they prefer 226 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: to not tell anybody, and that becomes a secret, which 227 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: means also not to themselves. But I totally agree with 228 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: you that one of the main reasons, at least the 229 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: rationalization around it, secrets between parents and children is meant 230 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: originally to protect the child from a knowledge that the 231 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: parent thinks might be too complicated. And think about it, 232 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of efferent when we think 233 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: about reproduction, right and these days, how children are born. 234 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: There are a lot of things that people don't know 235 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: and we'll never know, you know, about ideas idea for example, 236 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: for many many people, that's the secret. Many many children 237 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: do not know that they were born through ideas, and 238 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: the parents prefer to keep it as a secret. And 239 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: I think there are many other ways that you know, 240 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: even you know what things that happened early in life 241 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: when when we were babies, we will we might never know, right, 242 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: but those times really impact our lives. They shape our lives. 243 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What do you see as the 244 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: cost of secret keeping? You know? One of one of 245 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: the things that um, it's heartbreaking that I hear often 246 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: it's sort of a two fer. It's a double whammy. Um. 247 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: Someone makes a discovery that a secret has been kept 248 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: from them, and then perhaps they they explore that or 249 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: they go to someone in their family and say I 250 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: found this out. And then they're asked then to keep 251 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: the secret from others. They're they're asked to hold it. 252 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: So they have a combination of of having it been 253 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: kept from them and um, the conundrum or the dilemma 254 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: of whether they can speak it. Yeah, and the burden 255 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: right of keeping it's keeping a secret and asking right, 256 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: but they're having that responsibility. Something really interesting that you 257 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: said is that sometimes people tell themselves what I'm doing. 258 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: I'm doing this, I'm keeping the secret to protect you know, 259 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: X person or why person, when in fact that's very 260 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: noble and you know, kind and loving and of course 261 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: the way that we all want to think about ourselves. 262 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: But um, often it's really that they're keeping it because 263 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: they're protecting themselves because they don't want to They don't 264 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: want to think about they don't they don't want to 265 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: feel it again, they don't want to re traumatize themselves. Yeah, 266 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: and they don't want to define themselves around that, right, 267 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: if you think about right, many many secrets are about 268 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: infidelity and affairs and and things that happening marriages. If 269 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: you don't define yourself as a cheater, you would and 270 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: if you and if you cheat it you want to 271 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: forget it. She don't want to remember that you have 272 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: done that. So I think that that is one reason 273 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: that we want to forget. We want to keep secrets 274 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: because it's kind of attacks are identity and the way 275 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: we think of ourselves. If something terrible happened to you 276 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: on the street, right and you were you know, you 277 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: were attacked, you know, many people keep those things as 278 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: a secret. And I think some of it is the 279 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: shame and the embarrassment of being a victim, especially in 280 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: the past. And if you think about Holocaust survivors, there 281 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: was many years where people didn't talk about it. It 282 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: was it was it was shameful to be a victim, 283 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: because being a victim is being so helpless, and and 284 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: there is something deeply shameful about feeling helpless and to 285 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: be defined that way, or to be afraid of being 286 00:19:54,760 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: defined that way. Yeah, even by yourself. It's about identity. 287 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: It's about who who I am. And I think often 288 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: those things that happened to us are those that are 289 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: so to speak, and not me experience. Right, they're outside 290 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: of the way I define myself. And then and then 291 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: I have to struggle with that. The best emotional way 292 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: for me to do that is to erase it from 293 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: the right, from my memory, I would say, to dissociated, 294 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: to deny it, to use to use defense mechanisms to 295 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: really push it away and not even remember it, right, 296 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: and definitely keep it as a secret to nobody else 297 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: will ever see me that way and know that I 298 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: am back because it's it's and not me experience. What 299 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: is the mechanism um with which someone can really tuck 300 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: a piece of knowledge, a secret away, to the extent 301 00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: that they really don't consciously hold it anymore. They could 302 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: pass so lie detector test. Where does it go and 303 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: how does it act in that kind of situation. That's 304 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: a good question. You know. We have we have a 305 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: line of defense mechanisms, right of defenses that service in 306 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: that way from dissociation. Really, and I think the dissociation 307 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: is a big one when it comes to trauma, for example, 308 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: to repression and denial, and those are really you know, 309 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: those are very effective mechanisms that allows us to forget 310 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: anything that feels threatening to our psyche anything. And you know, 311 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: it's very interesting because our mind will basically attack any 312 00:21:55,320 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: information that makes us anxious or or too afraid or 313 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: two or too threatened if especially if it threatens the 314 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: the you know, if if if it could cause us 315 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: some kind of fragmentation or breakdown, our mind will really 316 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: help us in that way. I think the problem with 317 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: that is that many of those secret go go into 318 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: our body and are expressed through our body. Right, So 319 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: I like to think about it or describe it as 320 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: like a secret contract that our unconscious has with our body, 321 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: to say, you know what, let's make sure that she 322 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: doesn't know that. So let's let's keep it, you know, 323 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: let's keep it away from her consciousness, and then some 324 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: of the material is expressed through the body. That's fascinating. 325 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: How does that manifest itself when our minds remembers our 326 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: bodies are we have to forget because otherwise our bodies 327 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: have to remember what our minds cannot remember. And in 328 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: what and what kind of ways does that express itself 329 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: in the body of the mind has shut it down. 330 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: I think that what it's what we call symptoms, right, 331 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: headaches and all all those somatic symptoms that are real. 332 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: We don't make them up. That really our body will 333 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: express for our back pain, headaches, is even obsessions and 334 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: all of those things that we know that are the 335 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: symptoms that are either held through the body or we 336 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: don't understand in other ways emotional symptoms and the understanding 337 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: it really when that is when that when the mind remembers, 338 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: the body is allowed to forget. But as long as 339 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: the mind cannot remember, and that's what you were talking about, 340 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: the defense mechanism, right, as long as the mind is 341 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: not allowed to remember this because it's too threatening, then 342 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: the body has to do some of that work right 343 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: of remembering. It plays itself in the body. And I 344 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: didn't know that the body keeps the score right. The 345 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: body is there is a system there, and the body 346 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: is there to help the system survive. So I would 347 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: imagine that's where symptoms of anxiety or panic attacks come from, 348 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: like a big red flashing light warning warning. Yeah, panic attacks, anxiety. 349 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: And I think I'm talking even about things that are 350 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 1: even less less obvious than like wright and back pain, 351 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: eggs Ama. You know all of these things that have 352 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: that are connected to our right, that express our mind, 353 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: on our skin, on our in our bones, in our 354 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: many many kind of illness and physical illness. That is 355 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: the burden of the the unknown and the unspeakable on 356 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: our body. I'm going to quote you back to yourself. 357 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: There's um from the from the introduction of your book. 358 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: These are your words. The secrets we keep from ourselves 359 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: are meant to protect us by distorting reality and to 360 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: help us hold unpleasant information far from our consciousness. In 361 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: order to do that, we use our defense mechanisms. We 362 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: idealize those we don't want to feel ambivalent about. Identify 363 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: with the parent who abused us split the world into 364 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: good and bad. In order to organize the world as 365 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: safe and predictable. We project into the other what we 366 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: don't want to feel or what makes us too anxious 367 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: to know about ourselves. Yeah, so could you talk a 368 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: little bit about this idea of projection which I think 369 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: people so often you know here and don't really understand. 370 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: And you know, this way we have of organizing the 371 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: world so that, you know, so that we can tolerate it. Yeah, 372 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, the secrets well keep from our selves and 373 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: our defense mechanism that is so effectively helps us with 374 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: that is based on the really the the idea that 375 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: of surviving, right, we need to feel safe, We need 376 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: to survive. We need to think that the world is 377 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: not so scary, that our impulses are not so overwhelming, 378 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: that people are not so dangerous, and that we could 379 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: differentiate between good and bad that we will. And I 380 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: think these days when the world, you know, after this 381 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: really intends a few years, the world became even to 382 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: some degree or even more chaotic, and aggression is everywhere, 383 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: and you know, and I think we use even more 384 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: of our defenses because we want to make sure that 385 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: we're safe that and that we could differentiate. For example, 386 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: splitting is one defense mechanism, right between good and bad. 387 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: I want to know, like in the fairy tale, who's 388 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: the good mother, who's the bad mother? Where is it 389 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: safe and where where the danger is? And if it's 390 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: too mixed then you know, like Children's fairy tale for 391 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: children's right, they are they help the children organize the world, 392 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: organize it and divide it into good and bad so 393 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: the child can really feel safe. And that's where it 394 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: comes from, right there, This is what the goal of 395 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: that making sure that we feel safe in the world. 396 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: And so when we talk about projection, projection also supposed 397 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: to help us feel safe in the world and and 398 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: supposed to help us deal with our own unpleasant feelings 399 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: about and things that we don't want to know about ourselves. 400 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: So I don't want to know that I am a 401 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: very jealous person, let's say. And so I look at 402 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: you and I say, oh, Jenny is so jealous. She's 403 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: always jealous. She's jealous of me, right, and and that's 404 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: how I get rid of that feeling, and I basically 405 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: put it on another person. The beauty of that mechanism 406 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: is that it is sometimes so effective that I will 407 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: choose somebody who actually can take it on and will 408 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: start behaving the way I would like them to behave 409 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: those those emotional mechanisms are are really profound, you know. 410 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: And it is based on the understanding that people actually 411 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: know each other more than we think they do and 412 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: communicate with each other unconsciously, you know, communicate with each 413 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: other unconsciously, and that communication she can go from one 414 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: person to another without passing through consciousness and without awareness 415 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: or or even intention, and so I could communicate with 416 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: you something. And with couples, you see, that's the most 417 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: how couples are actually giving each other where you see 418 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: these couples that one person is so gentle and sweet 419 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: and the other person is the aggressive one. And you 420 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: see how the person that is afraid of aggression, well 421 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: activate the person that is less afraid of aggression to 422 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: express aggression for them. You know, these couples that one 423 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: is the good and one is the bad, right, and 424 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: it is based on how much each of people feel comfortable. 425 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: For example, if you're talking about aggression, if I'm really 426 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: really afraid of aggression, I can and I cannot be 427 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: I can't have confrontations. I know how to how to 428 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: recruit my partner and and you know, and do something 429 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: that they will unconsciously take that aggression for me, express 430 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: it for both of us. Is that what happens in 431 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: an unhealthy relationship or do you think that to some 432 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: degree that happens in all relationships. I think it happens 433 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: in all relationships, and to some degree it happens in 434 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: healthy relationships, right, because I think about how how productive 435 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: that is in a good, good couple will allow each 436 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: other to to use each other in productive ways. Right, 437 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: And I think good or a bad couple if we're 438 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: splitting here, right, if there is a good or a 439 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: bad right, part of it is really about how productive 440 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: things are or how destructive they are. It's all on 441 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: the spectrum of of productive or destructive. And and I 442 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: think that that is one way to evaluate if something 443 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: works or not, or how much there is And you 444 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: see that there are couples where there is a lot 445 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: of power struggle and a lot of a lot of them, 446 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, negotiation about no, you're bad, No you're bad, 447 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: No you did this? Then you right? Then they throw 448 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: it back on each other because imagine what happens when 449 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: both people cannot do something, cannot they cannot afford feeling something, 450 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: and nobody wants to hold it. So I think, to 451 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: your question, sometimes it is actually productive that we hold 452 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: things for each other. It's almost inevitable. I have twins, 453 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, my twins are. It's amazing to see it, 454 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: how they hold things for each other. One of them 455 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: is always this, and the other is that, and then 456 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: they split. And when they used to be baby, is 457 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: only one of them used to cry when they're hungry. 458 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: They always they always shared the responsibility and so, and 459 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: what you're describing is also this kind of um switching, 460 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: like switching of roles, right, like sometimes it's you, sometimes 461 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: it's me. Right, then that is more healthy, usually right 462 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: when there is more when there is more flexibility when 463 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: we could switch. But you know, in some cases, when, 464 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: for example, when somebody is really afraid that that will 465 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: they become overwhelmed when they feel angry, sometimes they choose 466 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: unconsciously somebody who knows how to do it for them 467 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: and represent them in the world, and they kind of 468 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: the kind of and that is not necessarily unhealthy. You know. 469 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: It really depends, it really depends how productive it isn't 470 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: how much it works for both people, and that they 471 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: don't write that it just works for them. We'll be 472 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. There's this 473 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: passage in your book, Um, an important question comes to 474 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: the surface. Is it better for the next generation of 475 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: trauma survivors, the inheritors, to know or not know? Does 476 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: it even matter assuming our ancestors trauma finds its way 477 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: into our minds anyway? And you know I found that 478 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: a really Trenchian, you know, kind of provocative question. UM. 479 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: There's a phrase a little bit later in your book, 480 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: the phrases raw wordless form. Um. You know, when it 481 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: comes to talking about trauma, we always walk the delicate 482 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: line between too much and not enough, between what is 483 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: too explicit and what is secretive, what is traumatizing, and 484 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: what is repressed, and thus remains in its raw wordless form. 485 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that that is like such 486 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: a powerful idea for for people. The whole question of um, 487 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: you know, is it like I remember when my book 488 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: Inheritance was out and I was UM speaking to audiences 489 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: a lot. At one point during the question and answer period, UM, 490 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: people put questions, they wrote them down, and they were 491 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: all handed to me on index cards, and there was 492 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: this one question that was written down in this sort 493 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: of shaky hand, and the question was what good is knowing? 494 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: I kept that. I kept that index card. I still 495 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: have it um like somewhere on my desk because it 496 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: was such a powerful question and if I felt like 497 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: such a plaintive question, almost an angry question, like what 498 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: good is knowing? So I would pose I would pose 499 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: that to you as as my final question for you, 500 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: what good is knowing? It is a fantastic question, you know, 501 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: you know in emotional inhert sence, I present the conclusion 502 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: that we inherit even family traumas that we were not 503 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: told about. And I think that the question what's good 504 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: in knowing is a complicated one because it brings us 505 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: back to the issue of regulation. How do we regulate? 506 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: How do we regulate in general, and how do we 507 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: regulate trauma and traumatic experience and emotions? And I think 508 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: that knowing and what is too much and what is 509 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: not enough? Right? And I think that on one hand, 510 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: the fact that we know anyway so many things, and 511 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: we often think that something is wrong with us when 512 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: it is not confirmed in reality. And there's a lot 513 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,360 Speaker 1: of gas lighting around it. I mean in one of 514 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: the stories in the book, I really talked about Nowell 515 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: for example, that he feels like he headed brother and 516 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: his mother always stop with this, you know, with these 517 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: crazy fantasies. You have enough. And so these kids, these 518 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: sensitive kids that actually sense things are often called crazy 519 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: and irrational. And you know, so there is something about 520 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: that when things are very close to consciousness, it is 521 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: such a relief. People that are they are so relieved 522 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: by awful information that they learned, right, and you're thinking like, 523 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is like I'm so happy to 524 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: know that actually my father committed as died by suicide, right, 525 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: And it is like this is such a relief for me. 526 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 1: And I think about that piece too, and of course 527 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: the other it's very it's a very very relevant idea 528 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: of the issue and about you know it, can it 529 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: be too much to know for us even or why knowing? 530 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: If it could really overwhelm us? And and is there 531 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: is there too muchness in knowing? And I think the 532 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: answer is yes, because anything, any secrets, any secret that 533 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: is we knew as a way that is thrown on 534 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: us right in a way that the other person we 535 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: talked before about getting rid of something information as a 536 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: way it is not fully processed, that is not fully 537 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: thought through, and it's just alrone on the other person. 538 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: It could be pretty devastating. And so I think when 539 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,479 Speaker 1: we talk our regulation, and maybe that's the conclusion of 540 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: this answer, we have to go back to processing. Processing. Processing. 541 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: You know, when you get a processed secrets, it's usually 542 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: a gift. You know, it is packed, it is you 543 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean 544 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: it goes both ways, doesn't it Like a processed secret 545 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: and the capacity to process a secret, Yes, it's yes, exactly. 546 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 1: A processed secret is packed and wrapped and delivered in 547 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: a way that is very different than if somebody gets 548 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: you something and just say and just throws it on you, 549 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: even if it's the most precious thing thing, it is 550 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: too much. It's like throwing up on you. And I 551 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: think the processing and our own and our own processing. 552 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 1: I always ask my guests if they're coming on the show, 553 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: they're coming on the show because they have processed something. Um, 554 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: they've already I'm not here to process it with them. 555 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: They've processed it and we're here to unpack it. And 556 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: and I always ask my guests, and it doesn't always 557 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: end up on the show. Most of the time it doesn't, 558 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: but I always at the end ask are you do 559 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: you wish? Do you wish you didn't know? And in 560 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: seventy people, not one person has said, yes, I wish 561 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: I didn't know? Um And I think that that in 562 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: large parts that that doesn't mean that no one would 563 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: ever feel that way. I think it has to do 564 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: with exactly what you're talking about, that that sense of 565 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 1: something having been worked through on on on both sides, 566 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: so that what it ends up feeling is illuminating and liberating. Yeah, 567 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: you know, I think those people who feel that they 568 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: wish they didn't know, which I believe some people feel 569 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: that the majority of people don't, but some people feel 570 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: that way, and I think that is because they have 571 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: no way to process that thing that they knew that 572 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: they know. Again, it's about process, and they cannot process it, 573 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: and they're then they're stuck with it, you know what 574 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: I mean? Like processing is digesting, it's suggesting, it comes 575 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: one way and and goes another way, and there is 576 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: a movement in it. When you're stuck with something, it's 577 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: like swallowing something that you cannot digest. And I guess 578 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: I mean, is that available to all of us, that 579 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: capacity to process over time? You know, I think that 580 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: it is part of our capacity, is humans to process, 581 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: but we we I think that it is very difficult 582 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: to process things on our own, and so I think 583 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: the it is much much easier to do it with 584 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: another mind. I would say that that that is a 585 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: witness to our process, and that helps us digest it 586 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: and and sits with us. It's very it's very difficult 587 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: to do it alone, you know. Yeah, that's sometimes right. 588 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: That's part of why secrets are not processed, because the 589 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: secret they've kept along in the dark. As you said before, 590 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: quoting that, you know, turning on the lights. For more 591 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 592 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.