1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: Welcome to this week's classic episode, Fellow conspiracy Realist. We're 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: saying this week because this is a two parter that 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: is unfortunately timely. We had a fantastic series of conversations 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: with the one and only Mike Render on October of 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and Mike Render has unfortunately passed away, so 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: we wanted to We wanted to air this two part 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: conversation again just because we think it's we think it's important, 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: and we think it is incredibly valuable for people who 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: are curious about the controversy surrounding scientology and have more 10 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: questions that maybe they're afraid to ask. 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: Sometimes. 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 3: I've said it before and I'll say it again, that 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 3: interview is probably the most starstruck I've ever been, because 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 3: I've been such a fan of those documentaries Louis thru 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 3: and the Panorama documentary where Mike Render appears back in 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 3: his Scientology bulldog days, and to see somebody an about 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 3: face to that degree and become not only an outspoken 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 3: critic of something that he was once such an integral 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 3: part of a cog in their machine, to also be 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 3: kind of just a really nice dude and a really 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: easy person to talk to. It was a really wonderful 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 3: time and I'm sad that he's passed. 23 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, Mike is and was a fascinating individual and has 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 4: done a lot of things that none of us listening 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 4: right now have ever done and will ever do. So 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 4: let's learn what we can from. 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 5: Him, from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 5: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 5: or learn the stuff they don't want you to know. 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 5: A production of Iheartrading. 31 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 4: my name. 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: Is no they call me Ben. We are joined as 34 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: always with our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: you are. You are here and that makes this stuff 36 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. In previous episodes over 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: the years, we have covered aspects of quite a controversial 38 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: organization that's familiar to all of our longtime listeners. That 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: is the Church of Scientology, the concept of scientology in general. 40 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: You'll note we did a previous episode several YouTube videos 41 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: on something called Operations snow White. We've also delved into 42 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: simpler waters in the past, but today we are immensely 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: fortunate to be speaking with someone who has extensive first 44 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: hand experience. As we always say, we like to go 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: to primary sources when possible, and that is why today 46 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: we are I'll say we are over the moon to 47 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 1: speak with Mike Render, a former senior Scientology executive as 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: well as the co creator of the new podcast Scientology 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: Fair Game. Mike, thanks so much for hopping on the 50 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: show with us today. 51 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 6: Oh you're very welcome, guys. I'm really happy to be here. 52 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 6: As one of my friends said, this is four white 53 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 6: males all and she said, yes, but they're good white males. 54 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 7: So I think I know, I think I know who 55 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 7: you're talking about. And and technically we're uh, if you 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 7: look at the four of us naggregate, we're mostly white. 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: But splitty splitty to Hair's the site, you know, Mike, 58 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: this podcast is doing some tremendous work in terms of 59 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: clarifying questions people outside of the organization have had, correcting 60 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: some myths, and giving an inside look into Scientology that 61 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: many people would not have otherwise had the chance to 62 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: experience or learn about. So one of our first questions 63 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: for today is, well, it's a little bit of a 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: loaded question, perhaps what was your inspiration for the creation 65 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: of Scientology, fair game, and could you tell us a 66 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: little bit about how it came about. 67 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 6: Sure, really the inspiration was COVID nineteen. I know that 68 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 6: that's a sort of a wise guy answer, but the 69 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 6: truth of the matter is, after the end of the 70 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 6: Scientology and the aftermath, which was the TV show that 71 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 6: Leah and I had done, we wanted to continue to 72 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 6: move into new areas and to explore things in more 73 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 6: depth and to be able to cover some of the 74 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 6: ground that we just were not able to cover on 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 6: that program. And initially our thought was, well, we'll just 76 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 6: do another TV show, and then the COVID hit and 77 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 6: there was no way of doing a TV show. And 78 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 6: someone suggested to us, you know, you guys should start 79 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 6: doing a podcast. And you know, I already have a 80 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 6: blog that I do every day, and Leah was like, well, 81 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 6: this sounds interesting. Do you think that we can do 82 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 6: I said, well, yes, it's great because we can do 83 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 6: it from home. We don't have to go anywhere, we 84 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 6: don't need a shoot crew, we don't need a whole 85 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 6: bunch of people. We can just sit down and interview 86 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 6: people or talk amongst ourselves and cover a lot of 87 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 6: stuff that we haven't been able to cover before, So 88 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 6: I guess it's not an in correct answer to say 89 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 6: that it was the pandemic that was the inspiration. But 90 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 6: it really is simply our desire to keep chipping away 91 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 6: at this monolithic monstrosity that is scientology by providing more 92 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 6: and more information in whatever forum we can, and this 93 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 6: is a great one. We're thoroughly enjoying doing this podcast. 94 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 6: I have a terrific time because we get to chat 95 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 6: with people and there's sort of no real restrictions or limitations. 96 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 6: You don't have, Oh we've got to get in six 97 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 6: minutes before the next ad spot, and we've got to 98 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 6: you know, it has to be a forty three minute 99 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 6: program that, like broadcast television, has got a lot more 100 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 6: things that people don't even realize who haven't ever done it. 101 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: Oh, for sure, I don't think alone and Covid being 102 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 3: an inspiration to start a podcast. It seems like there's 103 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 3: been sort of a podcast golden age that has sprung 104 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: up around around covid, for sure. Yeah, it's it's definitely 105 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: been an interesting time and happy that that this led 106 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: to this podcast from you and Leah. Can you talk 107 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: a little bit about the practice of fair gaming and 108 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: the idea that sort of led to the title of 109 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: the podcast, and where you kind of fit into that 110 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: in terms of the organization, and just give listeners a 111 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: little bit of a background about this practice and where 112 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 3: you kind of fit sure. 113 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 6: Fair gaming is or is a term that was coined 114 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 6: by l. Run Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, for the 115 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 6: activity of dealing with the enemies of scientology. And l. 116 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 6: Run Hubbard, like all cult leaders, had proclivity to designating 117 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 6: a US versus them world and that there was allays 118 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 6: some monsters out there that are out to get us scientologists, 119 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 6: and those monsters have to be vanquished. And the practice 120 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 6: in Scientology is called fair game, and it really means 121 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 6: to do anything necessary to obliterate that which is perceived 122 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 6: to be an enemy. And Scientology loves to say, well, 123 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 6: fair gaming is being a fair game. The term fair 124 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 6: game is being canceled, and that actually is true. L. 125 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 6: Run Hubbard issued a policy letter, but policy letter is 126 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 6: the official Scientology documents and writings of L. Run Hubbard 127 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 6: that are considered to be scripture of the religion. And 128 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 6: I use religion in quotation mauks and church in quotation 129 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 6: mauks You can't see me doing that because you're only 130 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 6: hearing me. But this is my quotation Marx, just like that. Yes, 131 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 6: and this is the scripture of scientology. And Hubbard fancied 132 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 6: himself as many things. I mean, he claimed to be 133 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 6: everything from a master photographer, to a master mariner, to 134 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 6: a horticulturalist, to a great researcher, to a philosopher, to 135 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 6: a race car driver, to like anything and everything. But 136 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 6: one of the things that he claimed to be was 137 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 6: an intelligence officer in from naval intelligence during the war, 138 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 6: and that he had studied all the arts of intelligence, 139 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 6: and that he was an expert on covert operations and 140 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 6: black propaganda and all of these things. And he wrote 141 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 6: extensively in Scientology about how you go about employing all 142 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 6: these techniques to destroy your enemies. And I'll just go 143 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 6: back because I mentioned that he said that he had 144 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 6: canceled this fair game. Yes, he laid out all of 145 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 6: these dictates on how you go about destroying someone, and 146 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 6: he called it fair game. But then that became public 147 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 6: and created some media flaps back in the sixties, so 148 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 6: he wrote a policy letter that said cancelation of fair game. 149 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 6: And I'm going to quote this paraphrase it, but it's 150 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 6: almost verbatim. The use of the term fair game is canceled. 151 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 6: It brought about bad public relations, so we will no 152 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 6: longer use the term, But nothing about how we treat 153 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 6: enemies of scientology changes. So Scientology comes out routine lean says, 154 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 6: we don't do fair game. It was canceled by l 155 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 6: Ron Hubbard. Fair game is dead. Game doesn't exist. Fair game, 156 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 6: this fair game. That so Lee and I went, you 157 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 6: know what, we're gonna call out show fair game, just 158 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 6: to stick it so that it you know, we know 159 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 6: that that's a bunch of bullshit, and we're not gonna 160 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 6: to subscribe to the lies and the obfiscation and the 161 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 6: misdirection and whatever that Scientology likes to engage in. And 162 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 6: you asked me, also, null, what's my involvement, Well, my 163 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 6: involvement is you. 164 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 3: Were one of the vanquishers. I mean, it's correct. 165 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 6: I was for almost two decades the head of what 166 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 6: is called the Office of Special Affairs of Scientology, and 167 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 6: the Office of Special Affairs is the department of Scientology 168 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 6: designated with the responsibility of destroying the enemies of scientology. 169 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 6: So that was my sp Yeah, correct, suppressive persons SPS, 170 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 6: and I went from destroying SPS to being the SP 171 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,359 Speaker 6: to be destroyed. 172 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 4: I want to I want to talk more about that, 173 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: But the first thing that comes to mind is the vocabulary. 174 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 6: Mike. 175 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 4: I don't know if you've seen that show, The Vow 176 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 4: that's on HBO Max right now. 177 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 6: Oh, it's wonderful, and in fact, we interviewed Mak Vicente 178 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 6: last week on our podcast. 179 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 4: Oh that's amazing. 180 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, should listen to it. It's it's an amazing episode 181 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:38,359 Speaker 6: because the parallels between Keith Rinieri and Nexium and Scientology 182 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 6: are astonishing. 183 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 4: Well, what I wanted to get to you, yeah, are 184 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 4: the similarities. Because as I'm watching that show and thinking 185 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 4: about Scientology and what we've learned on this show in 186 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 4: the past, something that really struck me where those similarities 187 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 4: you're talking about. And one of the big things that 188 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,479 Speaker 4: I noticed is this, on the surface, a self improvement 189 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 4: program for the individual, right and it's aided introspection appears 190 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 4: to be the way that you get to that better 191 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 4: place and you see improvement. But both have this extremely 192 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 4: insular vocabulary, and I just wanted to know in your experience, 193 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: how does having a like a large modified vocabulary. How 194 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 4: does it affect the way you think on a regular basis? 195 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 6: Oh, that is such an amazingly, incredibly smart question that 196 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 6: no one has ever asked me before. Okay, okay, seriously, 197 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 6: this is this is not unique to scientology. If you 198 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 6: now study all high control organizations or cults, you will 199 00:13:54,120 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 6: find that terminology that limits understand to a confined group 200 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 6: of people is an important aspect of keeping them under 201 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 6: your thumb and control. It makes outsiders all outsiders who 202 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 6: are uninformed and incapable of understanding, and insiders all smarter 203 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 6: than everybody else because they're the only ones that really understand. 204 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 6: And what's so fascinating about nexium is the terminology that 205 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 6: Keith Ranieri stole from scientology is identical. They talk about 206 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 6: technology and levels and ethics. They have disconnection. I mean, 207 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 6: it's it's a crazy amount of parallels between scientology and Nexium. 208 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 6: The big screw up that Keith Rainieri made was he 209 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 6: did not turn it into a religion. He should have. 210 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 6: He could have taken all the money, just like scientology does. 211 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 6: He could have had all the power he wanted, and 212 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 6: he would have had the protection of the First Amendment 213 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 6: in the United States and that protection is almost like 214 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 6: being a superman. You can walk through walls and do 215 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 6: all sorts of things that mere mortals are unable, incapable 216 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 6: or illegal to do, and get away with it. And 217 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 6: that I think was ultimately the downfall of Keith Rinieri. 218 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 6: If he had had the Bruntfreman millions to wage a 219 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 6: legal war on the basis that he was practicing a 220 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 6: religion and that his adherents were following religious beliefs and practices, 221 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 6: he probably would not be in prison right now. 222 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 8: Well, we're paying taxes, yeah, exactly, exactly. But you know, Ben, 223 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 8: you say that, and that is true. 224 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 6: But from my perspective, I have always argued that the 225 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 6: more important thing about tax exemption for scientology was not 226 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 6: that they could They didn't pay taxes. Yeah, that sucks. 227 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 6: Every every citizen of the United States is subsidizing scientology. 228 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 6: I mean that is a fact. But Scientology could pay that. 229 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 6: They got plenty of money. They got three billion dollars. 230 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 6: They could pay taxes. More importantly, two things. One with 231 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 6: religious status from the I R S comes no government oversight. 232 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 6: Scientology and religions do not have to file any record 233 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 6: of what they spend their money on. How much they make, 234 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 6: whether they're spending all to hire private investigators to go 235 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 6: around and destroy people's lives, or lawyers to just fuck 236 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 6: with people for the sake of fucking with them. And secondly, 237 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 6: when you walk into court and you tell a judge, uh, 238 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 6: your honor, I am sorry, you are forbidden by the 239 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 6: First Amendment, by constitutional law from engaging even in an 240 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 6: inquiry into whether our practices are appropriate or not. Because 241 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 6: there is a complete separation between courts and religion. You 242 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 6: can't go there. It works, It works all the time. 243 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 6: Scientology has made it well. I help make it work. 244 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 6: It works, and it prevents courts and law enforcement from 245 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 6: taking action where they otherwise would. And so Keith Andnery 246 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 6: made a big screw up because he should have turned 247 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 6: himself into another l run Hubber Messiah. 248 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: That leads me to a question was on my mind, Mike, 249 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: as some of our listeners are who are familiar with 250 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: your work may know and when I think Maderno alluded 251 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: to earlier you were a former senior Scientology executive. I 252 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't understand like senior it 253 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: can mean a lot of things, but I think a 254 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: lot of people don't understand the specifics of it until 255 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: you've laid out the Office of Special Affairs and such. 256 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: This one thing that hit me when I was learning 257 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: more about your experiences is that you actually joined Sea Org. 258 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: See org itself being one of the I think we're 259 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: for outsiders to scientology. That's one of the organizations or 260 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: one of the arms of scientology that really baffles a 261 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: lot of people. You know, you hear stories of folks 262 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: signing billion year contracts. You hear about l. Rod Hubber 263 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: I guess also known as the commodore at times living 264 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: in international waters to avoid certain legal implications. Was Hubbard 265 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: on Sea order on Apollo specifically to avoid legal problems 266 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: with the I R s or where there other world 267 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: governments evolved or what led him and then ultimately you 268 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: to Sea Org. 269 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 6: Okay, that's a compound question, counselor that's a compound question, 270 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 6: but I will endeavor to answer it. Okay, First of all, 271 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 6: the Sea Organization is probably best analogized to an order 272 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 6: of the Catholic Church, like or the Vatican. This is 273 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 6: the most dedicated people in scientology who live, work, eat, sleep, 274 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 6: and do every other activity within the confines of the 275 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 6: scientology are organization. They are twenty four to seven, three 276 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 6: hundred and sixty five days a year full time scientologists 277 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 6: working for Scientology. And it's not just stories. Every SEOG 278 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 6: member has to sign in order to join up with 279 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 6: the SEOGUE a contract for a billion years. Yes, that's right, 280 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 6: b with a B billion and. 281 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 4: L. 282 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 6: Ron Hubbard started the Sea Organization in nineteen sixty seven 283 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 6: after he had been effectively he was living in England 284 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 6: at the time. He had gone to Rhodesia because he 285 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 6: believed that he had been cecil rhodes in a previous lifetime. 286 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 6: He had gone to Rhodesia to reclaim his country, but 287 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 6: had gotten kicked out of the of Rhodesia and then 288 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 6: return tried to return to England, where he was living, 289 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 6: and the government there had effectively banned him from re 290 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 6: entry into the United Kingdom and told him his visa 291 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 6: was being denied for extension. He was already in trouble 292 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 6: with the FDA in the US and the IRS in 293 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 6: the US, so he went, Okay, I'm going to go 294 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 6: buy a boat and sail around in international waters where 295 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 6: I am out of the jurisdiction of any specific government. 296 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 6: The only problem with that is though when you're sailing 297 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 6: in international waters, that's true. As soon as you get 298 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 6: to a port, you were definitely in the jurisdiction of 299 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 6: the government. And he went to Greece and got thrown 300 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 6: out of Greece, he got thrown out of Spain, he 301 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 6: got thrown out of Morocco, he got thrown out of Portugal. 302 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 6: I mean, it was sort of one thing after another, 303 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 6: but he believed that this was the way to stay 304 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 6: out of trouble with government agencies and authorities, and to 305 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 6: some extent that worked for a number of years because 306 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 6: he was able to move from one place to the next, 307 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 6: to the next and sort of out of this hot water, 308 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 6: jump into the next pot, and then that would eventually 309 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 6: boil over and then jump into the next one, until 310 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy five he sort of went well. Actually, 311 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 6: what happened was he had a heart attack in nineteen 312 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 6: seventy five and I was on board the ship with 313 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 6: him in Curasou, and the medical care there wasn't what 314 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 6: he thought was necessary, so he decided have to go 315 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 6: back to the US. So we all ended up coming 316 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 6: back to the United States and taking up residents in Clearwater, Florida, 317 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 6: which is still the quote spiritual headquarters of scientology in 318 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 6: the world, Clearwater, Florida. 319 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor, 320 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: and then we'll be back with more for Mike Render. 321 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 3: And we're back with our conversation with Mike Render, formerly 322 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 3: of the Church of Scientology. You knew Hubbard. I mean 323 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 3: you you were in the church from a very early 324 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 3: age and you got connected at a relatively high level 325 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 3: pretty early. I think in your teens you were on 326 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 3: that chip and you knew l Ron Hubbard himself. Can 327 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: you talk a little bit about how that came to 328 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 3: be from being in Australia and raised scientologist and then 329 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: being on this ship in international waters with this you know, 330 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: science fiction writer, come religious. 331 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 6: Guru, yeah, psych ken Okay, no, no, Noel. The truth 332 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 6: of the matter is being raised as scientologist as a 333 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 6: So it's sort of like the the old idea of 334 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 6: families in the Catholic Church sending the oldest son to 335 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 6: the Vatican to serve and ultimately hopefully rise to the 336 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 6: level of being a bishop or whatever. That really was 337 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 6: my idea when I was growing up. Was eventually the 338 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 6: most important thing for me to do, and what I 339 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 6: aspired to do was to work with l Ron Hubbard. Like, 340 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 6: this is in the mind of a scientologist, this is 341 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 6: like sitting at the feet of Buddha. This is like 342 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 6: going and and being personally with the with the ultimate 343 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 6: authority and transcendental, brilliant mind of the universe. And for 344 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 6: a young scientologist and a scientology family, that was kind of, oh, 345 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 6: that's pretty cool. If you can pull that off. There's 346 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 6: not many who do. There were only you know, two 347 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 6: hundred fe fifty people on that ship with l Ron Hubbard. 348 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 6: That was it. That was two hundred and fifty people 349 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 6: in the entire world who got to learn at the 350 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 6: feet of the master. And so it was it was 351 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 6: a privilege and an honor and made the family proud 352 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 6: that I went off to do, you know, serve my 353 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 6: time with l Ron Hubbard. And he was a he 354 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 6: was an enigma in many respects. You know, you read 355 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 6: a lot, you know, since I left scientology, I have 356 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 6: read a lot, and I read a lot about you know, 357 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 6: personality disorders and sociopaths and psychopaths and this and that. 358 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 6: There are a lot of people and they have very 359 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 6: definite characteristics that are that are charterable and documentary and 360 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 6: they all had them. And Hubbard was on one side 361 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 6: astonishingly charming. I mean, he had the ability to charm 362 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 6: people and tell stories and be very gregarious and funny 363 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 6: and endearing almost and on the other side it was 364 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 6: like the Jacqueline Hyde. He was like a raging lunatic. 365 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 6: And it's it's interesting that when at least in my experience, 366 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 6: you are associated with those people. And it's funny because 367 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 6: you know, some of the books talk about this. You 368 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 6: tend to look at others as you see yourself, and 369 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 6: so you look at someone and they're they're like a 370 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 6: they tell jokes and they're kind of nice, and they 371 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 6: they ask how you're doing and are you well, which 372 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 6: was like a Hubbard sort of trait, and you know, 373 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 6: being very solicitous and you know, almost self effacing and 374 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 6: then turning into a rage monster and you go, well, 375 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 6: I guess he just gives a little upset that like 376 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 6: you excuse it because you don't believe that that's the 377 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 6: real person. You believe that that's the anomaly and that 378 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 6: the real person is the good part, because that's how 379 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 6: good people are, and that's how you look at others 380 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 6: sort of through your own lens. And it takes quite 381 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 6: a lot when, particularly when you've been raised to believe 382 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 6: that someone is like the Guru and has the answers 383 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 6: to everything in life and has discovered things that nobody 384 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 6: in the history of the universe has discovered before, to 385 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 6: shake off the idea that they could that the bad 386 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 6: that you were seeing is really bad and that it's 387 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 6: not just an anomaly. And and so you know, like 388 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 6: I said, Hubbard was an enigma. Anybody that you talked 389 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 6: to that actually met the guy will tell you, my God, 390 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 6: he was charming, he was lodger than life. He walked 391 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 6: into a room and the room lit up, and he 392 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 6: was amazing, and there were all this sort of stuff. 393 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 3: And then did you ever feel like maybe it was 394 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 3: your like, Oh, I don't want to displease him. I 395 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: don't want to bring out that angry sye. It could 396 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: be my fault. Maybe I did something wrong. 397 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 6: Oh, of course. And that's a fundamental principle of scientology. 398 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 6: I was even going to get to that noll a 399 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 6: fundamental principle. And Hubbard was a genius in developing a 400 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 6: lot of the things that he did in scientology, because 401 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 6: the idea in scientology is that you were responsible for 402 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 6: everything about your state of being, and if good things 403 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 6: happened to you, it's because you're good. But if bad 404 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 6: shit happens to you, it's good things happen to you, 405 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 6: it's because scientology taught you how to how to experience 406 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 6: the good. If bad stuff happens to you, it's because 407 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 6: of your own evil transgressions, violations of the more rays 408 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 6: of the group. And if you look inside your own 409 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 6: head and figure out what it is that you have 410 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 6: done that has caused this bad shit to happen to you, 411 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 6: it will all resolve. So you look and you go, 412 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 6: oh my god, the old man is really he's really pissed. 413 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 6: He's upseting me. What did I do? How did I 414 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 6: cause that to happen? And that is probably the biggest 415 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 6: trap of scientology. You look around, because David Buskavitch has 416 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 6: a lot less redeeming qualities than el Ron Hubbard. He's 417 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 6: got a lot lot more bad traits and a lot 418 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 6: less sort of charismatic nice things that you could say 419 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 6: about him. And you look around, you go, but there's 420 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 6: people there that have been there for twenty years and 421 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 6: that he's beating them, and he's abusing them. He spits 422 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 6: on them, he calls them names, he curses them out, 423 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 6: he has them dig shit out of the toilets, you know, 424 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. Why do they put up with it? 425 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 6: The reason they put up with it is because they 426 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 6: have been indoctrinated to believe because they're somehow bad and 427 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 6: they haven't discovered what their evil is yet. But if 428 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 6: they keep working at it, they'll get there. 429 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: Right, They're being punished for a reason. You know, you 430 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: said something you said two really interesting things previously, Mike, 431 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: where you said you alluded to something called the prison 432 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: of the mind for or people who are practicing scientology, 433 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: and then you had also said I won't do a 434 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: compound question this time, promise. You had also said that 435 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: David Miskovich in particular, seemed kind of like an anomalous 436 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: nutcase until you read a book called The Sociopath next Door? 437 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: Is was that the correct one? 438 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 6: Yes, brilliant book by Matha Stell, doctor Matha Stell. 439 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. And from what we understand about the good and 440 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: the bad of scientology, the idea is that one should 441 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: one should be able to control one's emotions. So isn't 442 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: that kind of a contradiction that he would be so 443 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: filled with rage. 444 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 6: It's a complete contradiction. And it's a contradiction for another reason. 445 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 6: And there is tons and tons and tons of contradictions 446 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 6: in scientology. You don't see them until you get out. 447 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 6: But think about what I just told you about the 448 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 6: the idea that when something bad has happened to you, 449 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 6: it's because of your evil doing for everybody except the 450 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 6: guy at the top. For the guy at the top, 451 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 6: his upset or bad stuff happening to him is because 452 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 6: everybody else is doing bad stuff to him. For everybody underneath, 453 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 6: what's that bad stuff happening to them is because of 454 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 6: what they did. When it comes to David Muskavetcher, Elround Hubbard, 455 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 6: now that that rule suddenly goes out the window, that 456 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 6: rule becomes David Muskvitch is being abused by his subordinates. 457 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 6: They are seeking to upset him, they are destroying him, 458 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 6: and they must look inside them, their hearts and their 459 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 6: minds to figure out why they are seeking to destroy 460 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 6: this great man. And that was the same with El 461 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 6: Run Hubbard. And you're exactly right, Ben, The idea that 462 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 6: you fly off into rage and start beating the crap 463 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 6: out of people is the example of the pinnacle of 464 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 6: the scientology world, that this is what this would be like. 465 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 6: You know, the Dalai Lama. The stories start coming out 466 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 6: about the Dalai Lama that you know, he's got a 467 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 6: sword set in in his place over there, and when 468 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 6: someone displeases him, he chops their fingers off, you know, 469 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 6: like it's just it doesn't it doesn't match up with 470 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 6: what is presented to the world that scientology teaches you 471 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 6: and processes you if you pay enough money to eradicate irrational, 472 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 6: mis emotional responses to the stimuli of the world. And 473 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 6: it's a huge contradiction. 474 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely, we're gonna make a quick break here and we'll 475 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 4: be back very. 476 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: Shortly, and we're back, Okay, So. 477 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: I think that right there. I haven't honestly, I have 478 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 4: not listened to much of your your show Scientology Fair 479 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 4: Game yet I cannot wait to. But I imagine that 480 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 4: you guys get into quite a bit of discussion about 481 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 4: David and a lot of that on your show. Would 482 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 4: that be correct? 483 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 6: Yes? 484 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 4: Absolutely, that okay, that's awesome. Again, just from a group 485 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 4: of guys who've been making a show for a long time, 486 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 4: that sounds like a terrifying thought just when you think about. 487 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 2: Possible. 488 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 4: You know the things that scientology has done in the 489 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 4: past with its First Amendment rights and large bags of 490 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 4: money that they have. But I want to I want 491 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 4: to talk specifically about you and experienced that your co 492 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 4: host of Scientology for game, Lea Remedy, had at one 493 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 4: point in her life. She was well, I guess I 494 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 4: don't know. I force would be the correct word. She 495 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: was told to go to a facility in Clearwater, Florida 496 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 4: that you mentioned for a thing that was termed reprogramming. 497 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 4: Can can you talk to us about what that term 498 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 4: means within the context of scientology. 499 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 6: Yes, I'm going to try and do this without using 500 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 6: too much scientologies in the description. But Leah made the 501 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 6: mistake of questioning the judgment and activities of Tom Cruise 502 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 6: and David Muskavitch, and for that that is a modal 503 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 6: sin when the world of scientology. She was told that 504 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 6: she must go to the facility in clear Water at 505 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 6: her own expense, and it ultimately cost her three hundred 506 00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 6: thousand dollars, Yes, three hundred thousand dollars to receive this 507 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 6: scientology auditing and auditing in Scientology is you know what 508 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 6: the term that is used to describe scientology counseling, and 509 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 6: it is done with this like little e meader that's 510 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 6: sort of like a little light detector. You hold these 511 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 6: two cans and it registers, and the person that's doing 512 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 6: on the other side sort of goes, oh, you've got this, 513 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 6: or you know, tell me about that or whatever. Yeah, 514 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 6: I want to know. And it was to get her 515 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 6: to effectively admit that everything, every critical thought, every criticism 516 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 6: that she had were stemmed from something that she had done. 517 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 6: And it's exactly what I was telling you before. This 518 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 6: is a very very very fundamental concept in scientology. It's 519 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 6: not just if bad stuff happens to you. If you 520 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 6: talk shit about someone, it's because you've done bad things 521 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 6: to them. So it's the idea that you're critical of 522 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 6: someone because you have done something to hurt them or 523 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 6: harm them in some way. So now are seeking to 524 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 6: make less of them so that you can make it 525 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 6: seem that what you are doing and saying is correct. 526 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 6: It's that the problem with it is, and this is 527 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 6: the problem with a lot of scientology, there is some 528 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 6: fundamental truth to these things. There is some kernel of 529 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 6: truth there is not a lot in scientology that is 530 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 6: just sheer bullshit. There is a lot that is take 531 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 6: a thing and turn it into something with a twisted 532 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 6: lot that changes actually it what it started out being, 533 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 6: into something that is almost diametrically opposed. And you see 534 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 6: that in the vowel too. You see how Rnieri managed 535 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 6: to twist things that had some fundamental concept or idea 536 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 6: in it, like being living up to your word, and 537 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,399 Speaker 6: turned that into being a slave. Now, how you get 538 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 6: from one to the other is kind of astonishing, but 539 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 6: he managed to convince plenty of people to do it, 540 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 6: to the point where they were calling up and asking, 541 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 6: am I allowed to eat another thirteen caligories? Master? That 542 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 6: is crazy. But just like scientology, something there was some 543 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 6: fundamental principle that you could agree with, or a truth 544 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 6: that you could agree with that then gets built upon 545 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 6: and built up and sort of interpreted and twisted. And 546 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 6: that's what happens with these concepts in scientology. And that's 547 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 6: what Leo was doing there for all that time. Was 548 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 6: until she had found something that explained every single critical 549 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 6: thought or comment she had made, she was not free 550 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 6: to go. 551 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: This hits on another thing that's been often talked about 552 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: again from outside reports and often from former members of 553 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 1: the organization, which is the idea of essentially being held 554 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: against one's will being allowed to go. It makes me 555 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: think specifically of the news that we hear every so 556 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: often about David Muskevich's spouse, who has been out of 557 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: the public eye for quite a long time. Mike, is 558 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: it true that this organization has or does hold people 559 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: against their will or is it more of like an 560 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: emotional peer pressure? 561 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 6: Okay, yes, this organization does hold people against their will. 562 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 6: They can be forcibly held and restrained and prevented from leaving. 563 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 6: And I have seen that happen, and it is or 564 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 6: people locked in a room and not let out, that 565 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 6: sort of stuff. But that's not really what the problem is. 566 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 6: The problem is people being held based on their will 567 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 6: because their will has been bent and they believe that 568 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 6: what they are doing is ultimately going to be their salvation. 569 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 6: That and you know Larry Wright in his brilliant book 570 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 6: Going Clear that he's subtitled Scientology and the Prison of Belief, 571 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,320 Speaker 6: because that's what it is. This is the Stockholm syndrome. 572 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 6: This is the idea that you can and change someone's 573 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 6: thinking to the point where they believe that staying is 574 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 6: best for them, even if staying means being locked in 575 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 6: a room and sleeping on the floor and being tortured 576 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 6: every day, and you know, like crazy stuff. But you 577 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 6: this is not limited to scientology either. You know, look 578 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 6: at the people that were at Jonestown, Look at the 579 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 6: people that are in fundamentalist Mormon. You know, Warren Jeff's 580 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 6: turning the kids over to some weirdo pervert to be 581 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 6: to become their sex slaves. I mean, this is and 582 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 6: this is a concept that is very, very difficult to 583 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 6: persuade anybody to act upon. And what I mean by 584 00:41:53,280 --> 00:42:02,919 Speaker 6: that is so often you see people seeking justice for 585 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 6: what has been done to them, and courts and law 586 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 6: enforcement don't recognize that twisting someone's mind is like is 587 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 6: just is just as damaging and intrusive and inappropriate than 588 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 6: twisting their arm. But because it's not a physical you know, 589 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 6: there's no physical assault, and the law is about assault 590 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 6: and battery. There's no law about assault and battery of 591 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 6: the mind. And so a lot of this stuff goes 592 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 6: and you know, people don't courts don't know what to 593 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 6: do with it. Do they believe that someone was brainwashed. 594 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 6: Do they buy into the idea that such a thing 595 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 6: as brainwashing exists, even if you call it by another name, 596 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,239 Speaker 6: call it brainwashing, mental coercion, whatever. Is that something that 597 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 6: is actionable? Is that something that you can do something about? 598 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 6: Can you prove it? It's But believe me, it is way 599 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 6: way more down. You can recover from a twisted arm, 600 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 6: it's much harder to recover from a twisted mind. 601 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 3: Well, and you can also take a photograph of a 602 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 3: bruise and enter it into an exhibit in court. You 603 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 3: can't take a photograph of a damaged mind or even prove. 604 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 3: The burden for proving like pain and suffering or psychological 605 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 3: damage so much higher than being able to say, this 606 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 3: person punched me, and here's the proof, here's a polaroid, 607 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 3: and it's done. You know, you can't do it. And 608 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 3: and then this leads to, I mean, quickly, just to 609 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 3: follow up. Clearly, you and Leo were able to disconnect, 610 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 3: you know, and and go on with your lives, you know, 611 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,240 Speaker 3: But still that has resulted as you being top listed 612 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 3: people folks who can threaten the church. 613 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 6: I mean, god, you know that to me is is easy. Again, 614 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 6: it's the mind it's the twisting of the mind to 615 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 6: believe that you are foregoing your eternity, that if you 616 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 6: if you walk away from this, you're losing your family, 617 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,120 Speaker 6: You're losing your friends, You're losing everything that you've ever known. 618 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 6: That if there's something, I mean, these guys managed to compartmental. 619 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 6: I've heard John Travalda say this often, Well, you know, 620 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 6: I don't know everything that's going on. Bullshit. I don't 621 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,879 Speaker 6: know everything that's going on. Uh not really, I don't 622 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 6: know everything that's going on. But what I do know 623 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 6: is that scientology has helped me. So why wouldn't I 624 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 6: continue to participate in something that has helped me? And 625 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 6: that is a pretty unassailable position to take because who 626 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 6: you to say, well, hasn't helped you? Look at your dummy, 627 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 6: it hasn't helped you. But it is also you can 628 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,399 Speaker 6: ask John Travolta, well, have you watched The Aftermath? Did 629 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 6: you read the did you read the article in the 630 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 6: Tampa Bay Times? Have you read Lawrence Wright's book? Why 631 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 6: would I do that? Why would I want to read 632 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,960 Speaker 6: bad stuff about something that has helped me? And this 633 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 6: is another thing that scientology and naxiom and everyone else 634 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,839 Speaker 6: has made a very a sort of a study of 635 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,240 Speaker 6: how do you persuade people not to look at anything 636 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 6: bad about you? How do you persuade them that it 637 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,839 Speaker 6: is harmful to them spiritually? If they look at something bad, 638 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,359 Speaker 6: it's going to detract from their progress in scientology, and 639 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,920 Speaker 6: ultimately code code cost them more money to have to 640 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 6: undo the bad effects of that on them. And when 641 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 6: I'm saying to you this, realize for a scientologist, if 642 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 6: they go read US magazine and there is a negative 643 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 6: story about Tom Cruise in there, or Leah remedi is 644 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 6: interviewed in US magazine, they are going to have to 645 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 6: go in and pay for the auditing that unburdens them 646 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 6: of the horrible sin of having looked at something negative 647 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 6: about scientology, because that's regressed them in their progress. 648 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: So many questions we may not get to all of them, 649 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: but this reminds me, Mike of the massive dump of 650 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: internal documents from WikiLeaks a few years back, which I 651 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,680 Speaker 1: know was a huge deal inside the organization I can 652 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,719 Speaker 1: only imagine, but definitely outside the organization, and we were 653 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: stunned when we realize that people who were in the 654 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 1: organization were being told, look, this is out there, but 655 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: don't read it, you know what I mean, treat it 656 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: as though it doesn't exist. 657 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 2: And I. 658 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: See now the financial incentive inherent there. You had earlier 659 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: said Scientology is worth three billion dollars with a lack 660 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:34,920 Speaker 1: of oversight. Do people ever reach a point in the organization? 661 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: Do they progress to a point where they're no longer 662 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: being asked to pay money for audits or anything like that. 663 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 4: It's a gift. 664 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 6: Seriously, you can reach the very top of the Scientology 665 00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,920 Speaker 6: bridge to total freedom and then be told op, sorry, 666 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 6: we found something new. You need to go back and 667 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 6: start over. And this is something that Nixim has too. 668 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,399 Speaker 6: I was speaking to Sarah Emanson the other day and 669 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 6: she told me, she said, do you know we had 670 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 6: to redo our training. We'd get all, we get our 671 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 6: scarf or whatever those things sash and then they'd come 672 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 6: out and say, oh no, you have to go back 673 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 6: and redo it all and you have to pay again. 674 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 6: And it's the same thing in Scientology. You have to 675 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 6: redo it. And we got we found some new I'm 676 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,880 Speaker 6: just formally unknown piece of information from l Ron Hubbard 677 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 6: that was buried in someone's suitcase under their bed somewhere 678 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:45,359 Speaker 6: and suddenly, now everything that you did before has to 679 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 6: be redone. And not only that, we now have a 680 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,359 Speaker 6: new fundraising program. We have to buy new facilities for 681 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 6: every church in the world, and we call these ideal 682 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 6: Orgs and signed Ptology has been opening these buildings around 683 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 6: the world for the last twenty years on a theory 684 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 6: that David Biskavitch presented as scientologists that in order for 685 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 6: scientology to truly expand, it had to have buildings and 686 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 6: facilities that would allow all aspects of scientology to be 687 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 6: presented in an appropriate fashion for everyone. So we need 688 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 6: new buildings and they have to be x number of 689 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 6: square feet and it's going to cost twenty million dollars 690 00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 6: and blah blah blah blah. So pay up and this 691 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 6: pay up for that, and for the Another thing called 692 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:50,800 Speaker 6: the International Association of Scientologists, which is a is a scam. 693 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,840 Speaker 6: It's just a scam. It's like scientologists believe that giving 694 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,720 Speaker 6: money to the International Association of Scientologists is helping educate 695 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 6: children in Africa, or save people from hurricanes, or you know, 696 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 6: do good work for the victims of earthquake in Haiti 697 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,359 Speaker 6: or whatever. And it's bullshit. It does not happen. The 698 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,760 Speaker 6: most that happens is they go and shoot a video 699 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 6: and then they show everybody, look at this video. We 700 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,040 Speaker 6: got five people in this video, but there were thousands 701 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 6: more that you just can't see. And keep giving us money, 702 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 6: and we will give you these gaudy bowling pin bowling 703 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,479 Speaker 6: trophies and start calling you Platinum Excalibur something or other, 704 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 6: or Platinum Meritorious Patron of the Gluteus Maximus or like 705 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 6: it's like these bizarre, absurd names, and people hand over 706 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:59,800 Speaker 6: ten fifty million dollars and like I said, with no oversight, 707 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,759 Speaker 6: Scientology never has to show its books. They never have 708 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 6: to show it. 709 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 3: Tithing, right, isn't that basically the same thing as tithing 710 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:06,879 Speaker 3: to a. 711 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 6: Church, like well, if tithing money, if tithing, well, you 712 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 6: typically you think of tithing as like ten percent. If 713 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,280 Speaker 6: tithing was fifty, that's more of the Scientology model fifty 714 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 6: or more. Like Scientology is ruthless about getting money. Go 715 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 6: take a loan, go you know, get cash in your 716 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,479 Speaker 6: your college fund, get your stocks, sell your stocks, sell 717 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,360 Speaker 6: your house, do whatever. Get us the money now, because 718 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 6: this money right now is going to save the world. 719 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 6: They've been saying that for fifty years and things aren't 720 00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 6: going so good. 721 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 1: Our conversation with Mike Render continues and it goes in 722 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:59,120 Speaker 1: some fascinating to a degree disturbing places, so much so 723 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,799 Speaker 1: that we did not want to cut any of it, 724 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: and we have decided to make this a two part episode. 725 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,080 Speaker 1: We promised that this is going to be worth it. 726 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,560 Speaker 1: We hope that you join us for part two of 727 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: this interview, which is coming out later this week. In 728 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,280 Speaker 1: the meantime, we highly recommend checking out Mike and Leah's 729 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:29,840 Speaker 1: new podcast Scientology Fair Game, and that's our classic episode 730 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: for this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts. 731 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 3: It's right let us know what you think. 732 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:34,600 Speaker 2: You can reach. 733 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,000 Speaker 3: You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on 734 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 3: Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy 735 00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:41,959 Speaker 3: Stuff Show. 736 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,239 Speaker 4: If you want to call us dial one eight three 737 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:49,480 Speaker 4: three STDWYTK that's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes, 738 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,759 Speaker 4: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 739 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:53,839 Speaker 4: we can use your name and message on the air. 740 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 4: If you got more to say than can fit in 741 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 4: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old 742 00:52:58,600 --> 00:52:59,360 Speaker 4: fashioned email. 743 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 1: We are the entities that read every single piece of 744 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: correspondence we receive, be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the 745 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:29,360 Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 746 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 4: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 747 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 748 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.