1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. A reduction of shondaland 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. As the homes 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: became more overcrowded, people needed to conduct their social life 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: in the streets because every available space was being used 5 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: for a bedroom for multiple families living in space that 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: should have been for a single family. Governments stopped collecting 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: garbages frequently in those neighborhoods. They became African American and 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: they became slums, and whites looked at those slums and 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: they decided, well, African Americans are slum dwellers, not understanding 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: that the slum conditions were created by government policy. Hey, everyone, 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. In America, 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: owning a home is presented as like part of the 13 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: American dream, and I've always wanted to own my own home. 14 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: I bought my first home about almost three years ago now, 15 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: and it was a huge thing for me, especially as 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,639 Speaker 1: someone who used to live in government subsidized housing. And 17 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: when I think about being black, being an African American, 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: and being a homeowner, I can't help but think about 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: the history of how that has been a fraud enterprise 20 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: for a lot of black people in this country. And 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: I can't help and think about the relationship between home 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: ownership and wealth, and then home ownership and structural racism. 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: And I knew when I had this podcast that I 24 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: would want to have a conversation about residential segregation, home ownership, 25 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: and structural racism. And I discovered this book called The 26 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: Color of Law through the four Harriet YouTube page. Shout 27 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: out to Kimberly Foster, and I knew I wanted to 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: have Richard Rothstein, who wrote the book, on the podcast 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: to talk about the history of racial segregation in the 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: United States. Richard Rothstein is the author of The Color 31 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: of Law, a forgotten history of how our government segregated America. 32 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: According to the New York Times, there is no better 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: history of house in segregation. Mr Rostein is a Distinguished 34 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: Fellow at the Economic Policy Institute and a Senior Fellow 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: Emeritus at the Inn Double a CP legal defense spot. 36 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: Please enjoy my conversation with Richard Rothstein. Hello Richard Rothstein, 37 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,279 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? 38 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: I thank you, I appreciate being with you. I am 39 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: so excited that you're here. To have this conversation with me. 40 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: So in your amazing book The Color of Law, A 41 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: Forgotten History of how our government segregated America, you use 42 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: the term de jury segregation a lot. So can we 43 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: start off by having you defined the collegible might not 44 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: hear that term did jury segregation? Can you define that 45 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: in relationship to do it back though segregation both? Please? 46 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: Certainly we have a national myth in this country that 47 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: the reason we're so racially segregated, with every metropolitan area 48 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: having clearly defined areas that are all white or mostly white, 49 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: and clearly defined areas that are all black or mostly black, 50 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: that the reason that's, uh, we're so segregated is because 51 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: of private activity, because of banks or real estate agents 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: or insurance companies that discriminated, wouldn't ensure mortgages for African Americans. Uh, 53 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: because of bigoted homeowners or landlords who wouldn't rent or 54 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: sell to African Americans. Or maybe we tell ourselves that 55 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: it's all because people like to live with each other 56 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: of the same race and that's why we're so segregated. 57 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: They choose to do it. Or maybe we tell ourselves 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: it's just because of income differences on average African Americans 59 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: of lower incomes than whites, and so many African Americans 60 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: can't afford to move to higher opportunity neighborhoods, and we 61 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: tell ourselves, this is the reason we're segregated. The Supreme 62 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: Court has embraced this view, and it's given a name 63 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: to this view. It says, we have defact those segregation, 64 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: something that just happened, in fact, not by policy, not 65 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: by law, and not by ordinance, not by regulation, just 66 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: sort of happened naturally. And the Supreme Court has said, 67 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: and we've all adopted this view, but if it happened naturally, 68 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: if it happened by accident de fact, those segregation, not 69 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: by government, and it wasn't a constitutional violation, there's nothing 70 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: unconstitutional about it. It's not a civil rights violation. It's 71 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: just self choice and private bigotry. And the Supreme Court said, 72 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: if you have something that just happened naturally, happened by 73 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: accident de fact, those segregation, it can only unhappen by accident. 74 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: There's nothing we have an obligation to do anything about 75 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: because it's a not a civil its violation. In contrast, 76 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: if we thought that the residential segregation of every metropolitan 77 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: area was not accidental, but the product of very explicit federal, state, 78 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: and local policy designed to ensure the African Americans and 79 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: Whites could not live near one another in any metropolitan area. 80 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: That's a civil rights violation. We call that the jury segregation. 81 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: And if it's a civil rights violation, we have an 82 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: obligation as American citizens to undo it, to remedy it. 83 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: And that's what the why the two terms are so significant. 84 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: The first, the fact of segregation is a paralyzing myth 85 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: because it prevents us from feeling an obligation to retrest segregation. 86 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: The second, the reality that I described in my book 87 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: of many, many federal, state, and local policies who were 88 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: racially explicit that are the cause of residential segregation today, 89 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: that created it, sustained it, perpetuated it. It's a civil 90 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: rights violation. Our racial boundaries in every metropolitan area are 91 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: as much as civil rights violation as a segregation of 92 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: schools or water fountains or buses or any of the 93 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: things we addressed in the twentieth century. But this one 94 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: we've left untouched. And so it's important to understand the 95 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: history of how our government segregated in America because if 96 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: you understand its history, then we have no choice but 97 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: to accept the obligation to remedy it because it's a 98 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: violation of our constitution. Wow, you said so much there. 99 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: It's like you just said, if we accept the history, 100 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: we have no choice. And I feel so often in 101 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: this country maybe if that we don't want to accept 102 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: the history. And I think white supremacy seems to exist 103 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: in a sort of since since a perpetual sort of 104 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: denial that in that it's something that's going on. So, 105 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: but before we get there, I would love to talk 106 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: about some of the ways in which in the twentieth 107 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: century our government participated in what you call the jury segregation. 108 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: And I love the way you start your book. You 109 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: tell us about the story of a man named Frank 110 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: Stephen Fenn. Can you tell us a bit about Mr 111 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: Stephen Fenn and the story of richment in California. Sure, 112 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: during World War Two, hundreds of thousands of white and 113 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: black workers flocked to the West Coast to take jobs 114 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: in war industries making airplanes and ships, tanks and jeeps. Well, 115 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: Frank Stevenson came to California as a young man during 116 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: World War Two and got a job in a forward 117 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: plant that had been converted to making tanks and jeeps. 118 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: And at the end of the war that plant converted 119 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: back into the manufacturer of automobiles, and it did so 120 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: for about ten years, and in the nineteen that plant 121 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: moved to the suburbs. At the time, many many urban plants, 122 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: we're moving to suburban locations because all of a sudden, 123 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: the highways were being built and plants not a longer 124 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: needed to be located near a deep water port or 125 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: a railroad terminal to get their parts and ship their 126 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: final products. Richmond was a deep water port. That's why 127 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: the Ford plant was there. But they moved to a 128 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: suburb called Mill Peteris but now part of the Silicon 129 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: Valley in California, and the United all the workers the 130 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: union negotiating agreement with Ford that all the workers in 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: the Richmond plant could move to Mill Peters. It was 132 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: about fifty miles away. The workers in that plant had 133 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: the opportunity to keep their jabs by moving to Mill Peters. 134 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: But the white workers were able to move because there 135 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: was housing for them. The African American workers were not 136 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: able to move because there was no housing for them. Well, 137 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: why was there no housing for them? The reason there 138 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: was no housing for them wasn't The federal government had 139 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: embarked in the period after World War two two create 140 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: suburbs like Mill Peters with single family homes for white 141 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: workers only, and created these suburbs with a prohibition that 142 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: any homes could be occupied by African Americans. This is 143 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: an explicit racial policy. Perhaps the biggest and best well 144 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: known of these is maybe you've heard of it, Levitt 145 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: Town east of New York City, seventeen thousand homes in 146 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: one place, uh. But the suburbs and the communities in 147 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: Milpitis were smaller, but still financed by the Federal Housing 148 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: Administration and Veterans Administration Before that Levitt or these other 149 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: developers Frank Bohannan in UH northern California in the Milpitis area, 150 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: these developers could never assemble the capital to build these 151 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: suburbs on their own because we were in the suburban 152 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: country yet and the banks thought, this is a crazy idea. 153 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: Why would you lend somebody the money in Levitt's case, 154 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: to build seventeen thousand homes that nobody was going to 155 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: want to buy. Who wants to move to the suburbs. 156 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: The only way that these developers Frank Bohannan and in 157 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the East Bay or Levitt and Levitt Town or any 158 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: of the others, the only way they could build these 159 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: projects was by going to the Federal Housing Administration and 160 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: Veterans Administration, submitting their plans for the projects, the architectural 161 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: design of the homes, the layout of the streets, the 162 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: construction materials they were going to use, and a commitment 163 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: required by the Federal Housing or Veterans Administration never to 164 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: sell a home to an African American. Now do we 165 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: know why they didn't want to un sailed to African 166 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: Americans and they wanted these to have these communities and 167 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: be exclusively white. Was there a reason or they were 168 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: just like, we can't have black people there. Well, this 169 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 1: country has never dealt with the legacy of slavery and 170 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: Jim Crow, and it was assumed by policy makers. They 171 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: didn't have to say why. It was assumed by policy 172 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: wakers as well as many of their constituents that African 173 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: Americans were in inferior race and didn't belong mixing with 174 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: with whites. This was not just a phenomenon in the South, 175 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: there was a policy of the National Democratic Party. It's 176 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: very interesting, you know I I talked in the book 177 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: and the Color of Laws. You may may recall the 178 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: vern that in thirteen Woodrow Wilson was elected President of 179 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: the United States. He was the first Southern Democrat to 180 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: be elected president since the Civil War, and prior to that, 181 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: prior to nineteen thirteen, when he assumed office, we had 182 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: an integrated federal civil service. Integrated the civil service wasn't 183 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: large like it is today, but there was an integrated 184 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: federal civil service. The Wilson administration embarked on a program 185 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: to segregate the federal civil service for the first time, 186 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: first time in nineteen thirteen. This was fifty years after 187 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: the end of the Civil War, just about so this 188 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: is not something that dates from the end of the 189 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: Civil War. This is something that was imposed in the 190 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: twentieth century. Well, the biggest department in the government, one 191 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: of the biggest departments in the government at that time 192 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: was the Navy Department. In all departments of the government 193 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: that they were putting up curtains to separate black and 194 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: white workers in federal office buildings. They were firing any 195 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: African Americans who were in supervisory positions because it was 196 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: no longer permitted for African Americans to supervise whites. Separate 197 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: watching facilities were established in basements for African American workers. Well, 198 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: as I said, Navy departments in the largest departments. And 199 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: who was the assistant secretary of the Navy at that time? 200 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: In this is a quiz, I have no idea the 201 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: assistant Secretary of the Navy in nineteen thirteen who was 202 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: responsible for segregating the Navy department was Franklin del or Roosevelt. 203 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,599 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that this was Roosevelt's idea, or he 204 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: would have done it on his own. They certainly an 205 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: object and this is the environment of the Democratic Party 206 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: with which he matured as a politician, and uh eventually 207 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: twenty years later, was elected President of the United States 208 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: and implemented these policies that I've described now. As you 209 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: may know, when Rosel was first elected nineteen thirty two, 210 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: African Americans didn't support them. They've voted overwhelmingly for the 211 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: Republican candidate. Herbert Hoovers voted Republican until the realignment in night. 212 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: I think posts the right act um to vote Republican 213 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: because the Democratic Party with the pro third segregation party. 214 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: Am I completely wrong with that? In my American history, Yeah, 215 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't think that's right. The big shift of the 216 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: of African Americans to the Democratic Party took place in 217 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six, four years after Rosevelt was elected. And 218 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: the reason they shifted to the Democratic Party was because 219 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: prior to that, prior to the New Deal, to the Depression, 220 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: to the Roosevelt administration, the federal government never offered any 221 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: benefits to African Americans. M on the Roosevelt the federal 222 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: government offered segregated benefits the African Americans, and the African 223 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:24,239 Speaker 1: American voting population on the whole thought that segregated benefits 224 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: were better than no benefits at all. Can you explain 225 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: the segregated benefits, the details of how the New Deal 226 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: with segregating, and how certain policies, particularly in terms of wages, 227 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: were despair it in relationship to black folks. There are 228 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: many many policies. Let me describe one that I talked 229 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: about at great length in my book because it has 230 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: the impact on residential segregation that we know today. There 231 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: was no public housing in this country prior to the 232 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: New Deal. As I say, the previous administrations gave no 233 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: benefits of any kind to African Americans or to whites 234 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: for that better. The first public housing in this country, 235 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: the first civilian public housing in this country, was created 236 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: by the Roosevelt administration when it first took office. The 237 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,359 Speaker 1: Public Works Administration, one of the first New Deal agencies, 238 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: built the first civilian public housing in this country. And 239 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: everywhere it built it, it built segregated projects, separate projects 240 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: for whites, separate projects for African Americans. And this isn't 241 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: just in the South. This is all over the country. 242 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: And people shouldn't know that, even though Jim Crowe was 243 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: a thing of the South that segregated housing with all 244 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: over the country. We talked about California, You talked about 245 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: Letty Town in New York. Yes, well, I'm sure you're 246 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: familiar with the great African American poet, novelist, playwright Lanks 247 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: the News he grew up in Cleveland. In his autobiography, 248 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: he describes how he grew up in an integrated Cleveland neighborhood. 249 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: There were many downtown integrated neighborhoods at that time. We'd 250 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: be stunned if we were transported back to that period 251 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: in history. The reason is simple of why there were 252 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: so many integrated neighborhoods. I mentioned earlier that we were 253 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: a manufest actoring economy, and all the factories had to 254 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: be located in the central district near a deep waterport 255 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: or railroad terminal. And because workers in those factories didn't 256 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: have automobiles to drive to work, they had to live 257 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: relatively close to the factories. So there were many broadly 258 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: integrated neighborhoods. I'm not suggesting every other house was a 259 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: different race, but broadly integrated neighborhoods in downtown areas of 260 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: lengths and News grew up in one of them in Cleveland. 261 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: He said when he went to high school, it was 262 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: an integrated high school. He said his best friend was Polish. 263 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: He said he dated a Jewish girl in high school. 264 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: Integrated high school and integrated neighborhood. That's not surprising. Public 265 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: Works administration went into that neighborhood of Cleveland, demolished housing 266 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: there and created two separate projects, one for whites, one 267 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: for African Americans, creating segregation where it hadn't previously existed. 268 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: And you you observed this was not just in the South. 269 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: It was in the North. It was in places that 270 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: self satisfied, smug places that today think they're better than 271 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: everybody else on these issues. One of the ones I 272 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: described in the Color of Law is Cambridge, Massachusetts. I 273 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: imagine you may have heard of that. The area in 274 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: Cambridge between Harvard and m I T. The Central Square neighborhood, 275 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: was a fully integrated neighborhood in the nineteen thirties, but 276 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: the Public Works Administration created segregation there for the first 277 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: time uh A separate project for whites, separate project for 278 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: African Americans created by the federal government, creating segregation there 279 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: and with other segregated projects elsewhere in Boston, that created 280 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: the pattern that exists to this day. Now. As you 281 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, it wasn't just in housing policy. The Civilian 282 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: Conservation Corps, the federal program that provided jobs for the 283 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: first time during the Depression, had segregated work units, not 284 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: just in the South and the North, as well. National 285 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: legislation like the Social Security Act or the Fair Labor 286 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: Standards Act, that is, the Minimum Wage Law. The first 287 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: MEAN and Muage Law were adopted in the nineteen thirties, 288 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: excluded occupations from their coverage where African Americans participated agriculture, 289 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: for example, or domestic work were excluded from Social Security 290 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: or minimum wage laws because these were predominantly African American populations. Now, 291 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: let me just say the Social Security Act and the 292 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: Fair Labor Standards Act excluded African Americans because Southern congressmen 293 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: and senators demanded that exclusion. But no Southern Democrats, no 294 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: Southern congressmen or senators, insisted that housing projects in Cleveland 295 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: be segregated. That's a different There's no national program that 296 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: requires the same policy to be followed everywhere. So even 297 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: if and I'm not suggesting that they should have done this, 298 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: but even if the Roosevelt administration had created segregated projects 299 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: in the South to pacify Southern congressman and senators, there's 300 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: no reason why they had to create segregated projects in Cleveland, 301 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: or in Cambridge, Massachusetts, or in California or any of 302 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: the other places they did that. This was a policy 303 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: of the Democratic Party. African Americans, I said, we're grateful 304 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: to get any housing at all, because we had a 305 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: terrible housing shortage in the depression. Uh, And so they 306 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: flocked to the Democratic Party as a result, and segregated 307 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: benefits were better than no benefits at all in their view. 308 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: And I think that is the that's the piece that 309 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: is so intense that there so many they were integrated 310 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: communities and the government forced this segregation, which just boggles 311 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: my mind on so many different levels. So this is 312 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: the Public Worth administration that this is the result of 313 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: road developed and then the next big push for we 314 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: can call it governments at today, how thing would be 315 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: after World War Two, which we alluded to a bit earlier, 316 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 1: and we go to some places like Levitt Town. Right, So, um, 317 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: you talked a little bit about the fic A. Um, 318 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: can you tell the difference between that in red lining? Well, 319 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: I will, but I want to if if I may, 320 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: and I think you'd like to hear this, I'd like 321 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: to say something a bit more about the f h Okay, 322 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: it's subsidies of these suburbs. These suburbs that were created 323 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: by the f h A and v A, the Veterans 324 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: Administration in the post World War two period were affordable 325 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: to working class families of either race Blacks and whites 326 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: could have afforded them. Returning war veterans, whether they were 327 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: black or white, could have afforded, and they were inexpensive homes, 328 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: no down payment, very small modest homes uh fifty square feet, 329 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: two bedroom, one bath, modest homes. Working class families, Whites 330 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: were subsidized to move to them. African Americans prohibited. They 331 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: sold at the time for about eight thousand dollars UH. 332 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: In today's money, that's about a hundred thousand dollars. Well, 333 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: those homes, as you know, but don't sell for a 334 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars today. The homes and mill petis million dollars. 335 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: The homes in Levitt Town three hundred, four hundred, five 336 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars. Perhaps the white working class families returning 337 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: war veterans were subsidized to move to these suburbs, gained 338 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: over the next couple of generations wealth from the appreciation 339 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: of the value of their homes. African Americans were prohibited 340 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 1: from participating in this wealth generating program. The result is 341 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: that today African American incomes on average or about six 342 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: six percent of white incomes. There are a number of 343 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: reasons for that, some of them up I mentioned a 344 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: few minutes ago, and we talked about the Social Security 345 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Act and the Fair Labor Standards Act. But you would 346 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: think if the African American families on average at six 347 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: of the incomes of white families, African Americans would also 348 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: have six of the wealth on average of white families. 349 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: You can say the same amount of money from the 350 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: same incomes. The reality, though, is that while African American 351 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: incomes on average are about six of white family incomes, 352 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: African American household wealth is about five of white wolf 353 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: And that enormous disparity between a income ratio and a 354 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: five percent wealth ratio is entirely attributable the unconstitutional federal 355 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: housing policy that was practiced in the mid twentieth century. 356 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: It's never been remedied, and we have an obligation to 357 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: remedy uh that five percent wealth gap is the contributor 358 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: major way to the ongoing inequality that we have today. 359 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: It explains why, even though housing discrimination is now against 360 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: the law, these suburbs are no longer accessible to working 361 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: class families of either race Whites. If they have down 362 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: payments that they've been bequeathed by their parents and grandparents 363 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: who gained wealth from these appreciating homes, they can move 364 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: to these suburbs. But the African Americans who have no 365 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: wealth cannot do so, so that the ongoing segregation that 366 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: we have today is in good part an ongoing effect 367 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: of these federal policies. Now, you asked about redlining. Actually, 368 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: before we get to redline, i'd I'd love to just 369 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: emphasize what you just said, because I think it's really important. Um. 370 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: Last year, post George Floyd's horrible murder, there were a 371 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: lot of conversations online about structural racism. Actually, I shared 372 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: a video on my Instagram page about structural racism, and 373 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: then I begin to see online all the people attempted 374 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: to debunk that video and like say, structural racism, it 375 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: is something that doesn't exist. I think that residential segregation 376 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: is a really good example, and these policies are a 377 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: really good example of structural racism and how that structural 378 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: racism continues to have disparate outcomes for black and white 379 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: people till this day, when we look at their wealth gap, 380 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: and we actually look at educated and there's a relationship 381 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: between housing and education. There's so many things that we 382 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: can look at around housing policy that are consistent to 383 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: this day. This is a good time to take a 384 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: little break. We'll be right back though. Okay, that's taken 385 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: care of. Let's get back to our chat. A dear 386 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: friend of mine just bought a house in Beechwood Canyon 387 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: here in Los Angeles, and her attorney told her that 388 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: there was a racial covenant in the contract. She's a 389 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: black woman, so apparently she was the first black person, 390 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: you know, to buy the house. But this is one 391 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: she just closed in our house and there's still a 392 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: racial covenant in the contract. Can you actually explain to 393 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: people what racial covenants are, because I think everybody might 394 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: not know. Sure. I mentioned before that the in order 395 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: to get the guaranteed bank loans from the federal government, 396 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: the developers and not only had to agree there for 397 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: the show home to an African American, but they had 398 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: to include a clause in the deed of every home 399 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: prohibiting resale to African Americans are rental to African Americans. 400 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: These clauses and deeds are called covenants restrictive convenance In California, 401 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: they're part of the covenants, conditions and restrictions, which is 402 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: an amendment to the deed. Well, you can't change a 403 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: deed once uh languages in there, but you can make 404 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: it unenforceable, and of course those racial convenants are now 405 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: on enforceable, but the language remains. You can't change that. 406 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: You can't remove something from your deed anymore. You can 407 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: wake up in the middle of the night and say 408 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: you want to change your property line, the deeds, the deed, 409 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: and so these this language continues to exist, and it's 410 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: important that people look at their deeds and be reminded 411 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: of how their community was segregated. This wasn't a natural phenomenon. 412 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: This was an explicit requirement. Now many of these deeds 413 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: have these racial covenants even without a government requirement. I'm 414 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: not suggesting at the only time you'll find a deed 415 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: is when the government required it. There were many private 416 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: builders who put these deeds in even when they didn't 417 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: have federal financing. But this is an example of how 418 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: African Americans were excluded from these suburbs, not only when 419 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: they were first built, but later on when the original 420 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: owners might have wanted to resell them. There were hundreds 421 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: and hundreds of cases around the country of African Americans 422 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: who bought homes in the neighborhoods that were previously all white, 423 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: bought them legitimately paid for them. Neighbors went to court 424 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: and the courts ordered them to be evicted because they 425 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: had no right to live in a home that was 426 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: for Caucasians only. Now, these actions of the courts were 427 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: also a violation of the Constitution that have never been remedied. 428 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: There are many African Americans who lost their homes because 429 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: of these racial covenants. You tell the story of a 430 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: Bill Myer. It's a black man who was a war 431 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: veteran who was in a similar situation in Levittown, Pennsylvania. 432 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: I believe this is in the nineteen fifties, and he 433 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: bought his home. And what was really interesting is that 434 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: the police participated in sort of the mob riots that 435 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: sort of happened outside his home. Can you tell us 436 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: a little bit about Bill Meyers and his story. Well, sure, 437 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: not only did the police participate in this mob violence 438 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: to drive the first African American out of his home 439 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: in Levittown, Pennsylvania, but frequently the police organized and led 440 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: these riots, this mob violence. This is actually how I 441 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: started writing the book. The Supreme Court had issued the 442 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: decision in two thousand and seven in which are prohibited 443 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: the city of Louisville, Kentucky from embarking on a very 444 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: hoken planned desegregated schools, and the Supreme Court explained that 445 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: the schools in Louisville, Kentucky was segregated because the neighborhoods 446 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: was segregated de facto as I described before. The Supreme 447 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: Court said that it was by private prejudice and private 448 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: businesses and people wanting to live with each other the 449 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: same race and income differences. And the Supreme Court said, 450 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: since the segregation of Louisville, Kentucky was the fact, though 451 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: the school district was prohibited from doing anything to fix 452 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: it because it wasn't a constitutional violation. Well, I read 453 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decision. This isn't two thousand and seven, 454 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: and I remembered reading about something else that happened to Louisville, 455 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: Kentucky and very similar to the situation that you mentioned. 456 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: In Levittown, Pennsylvania, there was an all white suburb in 457 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: the Louisville called Shivli. There was a white home honor 458 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: in this all white suburb. Who owned the home. It 459 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: was a single, single family home suburb. He had an 460 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: African American friend living in the center city of Louisville 461 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: renting an apartment, had a wife and the child. He 462 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: was also a decorated Navy veteran. The white homeowner in 463 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: the suburb of Shively bought a second home in his 464 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: suburb and re sold it to his African American friend. 465 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: And when the African American friend moved in with his 466 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: wife and daughter, an angry police protected mob surrounded the 467 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: home through rocks, through the windows, fire bombed, and dynamited 468 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: the home. Police made no effort to stop this, but 469 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: when this riot was all over the state of Kentucky arrested, tried, convicted, 470 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: and jailed with a fifteen year jail sentence. The white 471 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: homeowner forced sedition having sold a home in a white 472 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: neighborhood to a black family. So I said to myself, 473 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: this doesn't sound to me much like the fact of segregation, 474 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: because the police are agents of government there. It's a 475 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment violation for the police, the prosecutors, the criminal 476 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: justice system to be mobilized to enforce racial boundaries. It's 477 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: a civil rights violation. And I began to look into 478 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: it further that at that point, and that's when I 479 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: discovered this case in um Levittown, Pennsylvania, very similar in 480 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: that case of there was a police sergeant who tried 481 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: to restrain the white mob, but he was demoted. And 482 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: as I looked into it further, I found and I'm 483 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: not exaggerating here, there were hundreds of cases in cities 484 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: all across the country North Midwest, as well as border 485 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: states like Louisville. But the Pennsylvania's outside Philadelphia, as you described, Chicago, Detroit, 486 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, where you are San Francisco, police protected. Sometimes 487 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: police organized and led mob violence to drive African Americans 488 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: out of their homes. One of the ones that I 489 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: I discovered this research and I'm embarrassed. I forget the 490 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: name of the area of Los Angeles. It's where Occidental 491 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: Call is located. Eagle Rock. Eagle Rock, Eagle Rock, that's 492 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: the that's the name. But now even in that area, 493 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: the police actually organized a violent mob to drive an 494 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: African American family out of a home that who legitimately 495 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: purchased there. Wow um. Senator Corey Booker often tells the 496 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: story that a dear friend of his white friend of 497 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: his father's went to the real estate agent and and 498 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: pretended to, you know, buy the house. And then when 499 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: you know it was time to move in they tried 500 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: to protest it, but he was able to stay in 501 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: this white neighborhood and you know, got a better education 502 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: and he lived a better life, etcetera, etcetera. And it's 503 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: really interesting. I think about this too. When I was 504 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: in elementary school, my mother lied about where we lived 505 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: so we could go to a better school, a better 506 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: school district. So that the relationship between school and and 507 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: residential in terms of segregation, it's it's really deep because 508 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: there's the income peace and the accumulating of wealth issue, 509 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: but there's also the education issue. And if you're in 510 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: a better neighborhood, you get a better quality of education 511 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: and also can contribute to upward mobility. Oh my god, 512 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: this is so many things, um that are running through 513 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: my head right now. Well, let me say something about that. 514 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: It's not only that the schools are better, but when 515 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: African Americans were concentrated in neighborhoods that were less healthy 516 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: and less well resourced, their children were unable to do 517 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: as well in school, even if the schools were good. 518 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: I remember once writing a column about asthma as as 519 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: you may know, African American children and low income neighborhoods 520 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: segregated neighborhoods have asthma at four times the rate of 521 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: middle class children. And they have asthma at four times 522 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: the rate because they live in more polluted neighborhoods, more 523 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: diesel trucks driving through, more dilapidated buildings, more vermin in 524 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: the environment, more empty lots kicking up dust. And uh, 525 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: if you have a child who has asthma, there's a 526 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: chance more than a child who doesn't that that child 527 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: might be up at night wheezing mhm and come to 528 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: school the next day drowsy. And if you have two 529 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: groups of children who are identical in every respect, same 530 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: racial composition, same social and economic background, same family structure, 531 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: but one group is a higher rate of asthma than 532 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: the other, that group is going to have lower average 533 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: achievement no matter how good the schools are, because it's 534 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: going to be sleepier. It doesn't make a big difference. 535 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: But then when you begin to think of all the 536 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: other conditions that impact children, and poorly resourced neighborhoods, less 537 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: well maintained water delivery systems, and more dilapidated buildings with 538 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: lead paint peeling, African American children have much higher rates 539 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: of lead poisoning than white middle class children and have 540 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: lower achievement. For that reason, lead poisoning causes the decline 541 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: in i Q. So it's lead poisoning, it's asthma, it's 542 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: economic and security, it's homelessness. And so no matter how 543 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: good the schools are in those neighborhoods, they are going 544 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: to have lower average achievement than schools and neighborhoods where 545 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: children come to school healthy and well rested and well 546 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: nourished and economically secure homes. So that the effect of 547 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: racial segregation is enormous in creating ongoing and equality racial 548 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: inequality in this country. It's not just in housing, it's 549 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: in schools, it's in health. African Americans, as you know, 550 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: have sure the life expectancies on average, greater rates of 551 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: cardiovascular disease because they live in less healthy neighborhoods, less 552 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: access to fresh food, again, more diesel trucks driving through. 553 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: So the ongoing effects of the segregation that we our 554 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: government has unconstitutionally created exists with us today and they 555 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: demand remedy. Before we talk about that remedy, there's one 556 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: point in your book that you may that I just 557 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: really have to highlight. I was amazed when black folks 558 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: were able to get home so right. There are a 559 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: lot of predatory things that began to happen in the 560 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties when black folks were not able to get 561 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: access to loans because of redlining, which just haven't talked 562 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: about and f h A policies, and so they often 563 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: had these mortgages that were really expensive, and to pay 564 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: for those mortgages, they would have multiple people would live 565 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: in the homes, right, and so the neighborhoods have become overcrowded, 566 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: they'd be working so much, and so these f h 567 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: A policies, these government policies ultimately created slums. And I 568 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: think there's this myth that, like, you know, black people, 569 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, we we don't keep our neighborhoods when there's 570 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: their conditions that are structural that have led to these 571 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: kinds of neighborhoods. Can talked to us a little bit 572 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 1: about that, Richard, Well, of course you just did, you 573 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: stud as well as got to take a teensy break here. 574 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: I'll be fast m h already. Then let's just dive 575 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: right back. The f h A not only prohibited African 576 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: Americans from moving to suburban locations, but it refused to 577 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: ensure conventional mortgages for African Americans and existing urban neighborhoods. 578 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: That's what we call redlining. The federal government drew maps 579 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: of every metropolitan area in the country and colored red 580 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 1: the neighborhoods and those maps that had a lot of 581 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: African Americans living in them, or even that have African 582 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: Americans a few living in them. The cover of my 583 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: book The Color of Law has one of those red 584 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: line maps. It's actually the map of Newark, and it 585 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: shows how the federal government the redlined neighborhoods. And the 586 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: purpose of these maps was to indicate to the federal 587 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: government where it would be too risky to u ensure mortgages. So, 588 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: as you said, there's a result of that. Slums were 589 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: created because if people can't get conventional mortgages frequently there 590 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: were speculators who exploited them by selling them homes on contract, 591 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: something like the installment plan. If you put something away 592 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: in the department store and you make payments and then 593 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: you never finish it, you lose everything you put in. 594 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: You don't gain any equity in the furniture or the 595 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: dress that you've put aside. Um, this is how these 596 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: homes were sold. They were sold at much higher prices 597 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: then the market required, and families gained no equity. So 598 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: as you say, they had to subdivide their homes rent 599 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: apartments to other families. As the homes became more overcrowded, 600 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: the people needed to conduct their social life in the 601 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: streets because every available space was being used for a 602 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: bedroom for multiple families living in space that should have 603 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: been for a single family. Uh. Government stopped collecting garbages frequently, 604 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,280 Speaker 1: and those neighborhoods that became African Americans and they became slums. 605 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 1: And why it's looked at those slums and they decided, well, 606 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: African Americans are slum dwellers, and uh, we don't want 607 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: them near us, not understanding that the slum conditions were 608 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: created by government policy. So you're absolutely right when you 609 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: described this. Thank you so much for that. And when 610 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: we think about remedies, how do we make this better. 611 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: I I just bought my first home a few years ago, 612 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: and so I'm like, okay, appreciation and property value. When 613 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: I think about writing this sort of residential segregation, I 614 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: think that like, is it there was there were the 615 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom by the government in the nineteen fouries with 616 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,720 Speaker 1: that property values would go down if black people moved 617 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: into a neighborhood. And I feel like that steal the 618 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: conventional wisdom and that black people lived in a neighborhood, 619 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: the property value goes down. And I think if you 620 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,879 Speaker 1: starts messing with people's property value, people who canna get 621 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: really really incensed. Right. There have been a tempts to 622 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: put governments that says housing in different suburbs, and a 623 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: lot of people in suburbs like protest and and it 624 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: gets really really tricky when you talk about people's property value. 625 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: What do you think the remedy for this residential segregation 626 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 1: would be richer? Well, let me say first about property values. 627 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: And in fact, because African Americans had access to so 628 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: few homes, they paid more for homes in um single 629 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: family home neighborhoods. Then white's willing to pay for the 630 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: same homes simply a question of supply and demands. So 631 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: the supply available to African Americans are so small that 632 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: they paid more. Property values went up when African Americans 633 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: moved into a neighborhood for that reason, and frequently it 634 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: was remarked that the best maintained houses in the neighborhood 635 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: was a few that were owned by an African American. 636 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: So this was a myth. Well, of course, it becomes 637 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: a self perpetuating prophecy. What happened was that when those 638 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: neighborhoods have got a few African Americans, speculators went into 639 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: them tried to persuade white families of their property values 640 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: would go down because African Americans were living in them. 641 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: In my book, I describe speculators that hired black women 642 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: to walk baby beverages through white neighborhoods to try to 643 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: scare whites that the neighborhood was turned involved black. They 644 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: even organized home burglaries to uh persuade whites that they 645 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: better flee that neighborhood. The speculators then bought those homes 646 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: from whites at far below market value because they persuaded 647 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: whites their their homes would lose even more value if 648 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: they sell quickly, and then resolved them to African Americans 649 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: that have much more than market value, creating enormous profits. 650 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: This was a commonplace practice. It was called blockbusting in 651 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: the twentieth century and a further contributed to the segregation 652 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: of this country. Wow, that reminds me off the sub 653 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: prime loans that plagued the Financial Question two thousand and eight. 654 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: The subprime mortgages that happened that affected disproportionately are Arican 655 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: American folks. What would you think? What can we do 656 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: to make this better? Well, the policies to redress segregation 657 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: are well known. There's no mystery about them. We should 658 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: have an affirmative action followed program and housing that subsidizes 659 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: African Americans to move to neighborhoods that are now unaffordable 660 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: to working class families of either race, but that would 661 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,400 Speaker 1: have been affordable to African Americans at the time. We 662 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: should have bothered zoning laws, government debtities to working class people, 663 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: particularly African Americans, to move to certain neighborhoods to de 664 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: segregate them. And not just government. Banks and the real 665 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: estate agencies and the insurance companies and the developers that 666 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,439 Speaker 1: created the segregation have an obligation to contribute to those 667 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: remedies as well. We should stop placing all of our 668 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: affordable housing and low income segregated neighborhoods to reinforce their segregation. 669 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: So what's missing, and let me conclude with this. What's 670 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: missing is not policy ideas to redress segregation. Those are 671 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: well known. What's missing is a new civil rights movement 672 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: that's going to engage in the kinds of militant action 673 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,280 Speaker 1: that the civil rights movement to engage in the nineteen 674 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: fifties and sixties to make it uncomfortable to maintain these 675 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: policies of segregation, to create the political support to implement 676 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: the kinds of programs to retests regulation that we know. 677 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: I am actually working with a group of national civil 678 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,439 Speaker 1: rights leaders to create a new movement to redress racial segregation. 679 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: That movement will create local committees and communities around the 680 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: country to create the political pressure to implement the policies 681 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,399 Speaker 1: that I say are well known to redress segregation. And 682 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: we're about to launch it. And if any of your 683 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: listeners wanted to be on the mailing list to receive 684 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: the announcement of the launch of this new movement to 685 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: redress racial segregation, they should send an email and I'll 686 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: give it to you now. Carry see a r rn't 687 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: lady at n m r r S dot org and 688 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: m R artists do ward for the new movement to 689 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: reach ress racial segregation, and hopefully we'll see some of 690 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: these policies implemented in the not too distant future. That's amazing. 691 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Richard Richard is the author of 692 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: The Color of Law of Forgotten History of How our 693 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: Government segregated America. I like to end the podcast with 694 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 1: this question what else is true? And basically this question 695 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: comes out of my therapy in the community resiliency model 696 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: is about being in the space of both and um 697 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: when things are hard, what helps you get through? Basically, so, Richard, 698 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: for you, what helps you get through? What else is true? Well? 699 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,400 Speaker 1: You know this would may surprise you, but I found 700 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: the research that I did for this book very hopeful. Uh. 701 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: I found it very hopeful because as long as we 702 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 1: believe that this will happen by accident, it's just natural 703 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: to believe that could only unhappen by accident. I didn't 704 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: see how that was going to happen. Once we Once 705 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: we understand that this segregated pattern everywhere in the country 706 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: was created by explicit government policy, it's easy to see 707 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,400 Speaker 1: that equally explicit government policy can fix it. And we 708 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: are now having a more accurate and passionate discussion about 709 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: race and the legacy of slavery, and Jim Crow in 710 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: this company who ever have had before in American history. Uh, 711 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: it's not that it's gone far enough, needs to go 712 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: much farther. It's not that there isn't an enormous white 713 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: supremacist opposition to it. But I take great hope in 714 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,640 Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement demonstrations that enlisted the twenty 715 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: million Americans, mostly white, to protest the police abuse and 716 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: murder of African Americans. I think we're in a period 717 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: where the future can look right, despite the fact that 718 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: it may not seem that way immediately. So that gives 719 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: me hope. M M. That's wonderful that it's a beautiful 720 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: note to end on. Thank you so much, Richard Rothstein. 721 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: The Color of Law. It is ribbon ng. You should 722 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,479 Speaker 1: go and read it. Everyone. Thank you so much, Richer 723 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: Thank you. Wow. My mind is just really blown. I'm 724 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so angering so much of the history, 725 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: and I think it is really disingenuous at the Supreme 726 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: Court in their decision, and disingenuous for anyone to say 727 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: that we should just let things be when the government 728 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,879 Speaker 1: explicitly if you read his book, they explicitly created policies 729 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: to segregate neighborhoods when it was completely not even necessary. 730 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you have to read this book. You know. 731 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: I was in a conversation with someone last year and 732 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: they were like, structural racism, is that really a thing? 733 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: And I cited residential segregation. Um. Another point that he 734 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: didn't get to that he reads in his book is 735 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: that our schools are still very much segregated, you know, 736 00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: sixty years after Brown versus Board of Education. So we 737 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: need a new civil rights movement. We need a new 738 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 1: civil rights movement to address this, to kind of talk 739 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: about what our government did and the continuing effects of 740 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 1: those policies, continuing effects when we think about the wealth 741 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: got when we think about education, Wow, I'm like, I'm 742 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: just imagining like people in their property value. I wonder, 743 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: I wonder, I wonder how that's going to go. But 744 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,359 Speaker 1: that's up to all of you out there here were there. 745 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Laver and Cut Show. 746 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: Please rate, review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know. 747 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: Join me next week when I'll be talking to actress, 748 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,240 Speaker 1: writer and activist Jin Richards about dating as a trans woman. 749 00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: It's going to be lit, It's going to be right, 750 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: all real and amazing. You have to check it out. 751 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne 752 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,320 Speaker 1: Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox or real. Until 753 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: next time, stay in the life. The Laverne Cox Show 754 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with 755 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, 756 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,240 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 757 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:28,760 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.