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Speaker 1: Hello, Bechtel heads. How's everybody doing dystopia? Um, So, my

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Speaker 1: my name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante,

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Speaker 1: and you, of course are listening to the Bechtel Cast,

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Speaker 1: our weekly feminist podcast where we use the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: to analyze movies of the world. Um, but but this

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Speaker 1: week is um is a weird week. So we just

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Speaker 1: wanted to pulp in at the top and uh say hello,

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Speaker 1: say hello. We hope everyone is safe and healthy in

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Speaker 1: taking precautions and you know, it's it's a confusing and

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Speaker 1: scary time and we just we hope you're all doing well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're taking care of yourselves, um, as much

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Speaker 1: as you're able to. We are very lucky to to

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Speaker 1: be all right, and we're also lucky to be able

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Speaker 1: to work from home. We're in separate places right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you're not, you know, we're here for you, and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, take care of yourself. And if you have uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, resources, please give to your local food bank

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Speaker 1: and just you know, solidarity. We need each other and

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Speaker 1: we love you. And yeah, on that front, I mean

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Speaker 1: we might be were we're talking about maybe starting like

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Speaker 1: a little Twitter Movie Club. We'll I'll watch the same

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Speaker 1: movie at the same time. We'll figure it out. It's

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Speaker 1: on the table. Everything's on the table. Who knows what

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Speaker 1: tomorrow will bring in a good way. Yes, Um, you

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Speaker 1: are about to hear an episode that we recorded live

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn at the Brooklyn Podcast Festival on the movie

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Speaker 1: Black Swan, um, which brings us also to our upcoming

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Speaker 1: live shows are as you might imagine, still in flux

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Speaker 1: as to be expected. So yeah, so if if you

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Speaker 1: if you have tickets to our Austin shows, UM, we

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Speaker 1: will keep you posted on this status of their shows.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna keep it on the same side. So we

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Speaker 1: will go by whatever the recommendation is. And Boston shows

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Speaker 1: are canceled and LA shows TBD kind of the same deal. Um. Yes,

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Speaker 1: our our l A show which is not until mid May.

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Speaker 1: Is hard to say what things will be like by then. Um,

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Speaker 1: so for now it's still on. Um, we will announce

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Speaker 1: if anything changes. But um, we do have a show

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Speaker 1: booked at Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles on May fift

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Speaker 1: It's my birthday show. So of course we are talking

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Speaker 1: about Titanic, which brings me to a little shout out

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Speaker 1: I need to do to uh listener fan of the show, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: She gave me a very large Titanic poster then that

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Speaker 1: I then bestowed upon to you, Jamie for a housewarming

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Speaker 1: gift because you just moved. We still don't know what

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Speaker 1: to hear that it's so big, it's so big, but

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's you know, it's magnificent and just an

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Speaker 1: enormous shout out to Nicole for that wonderful gift. Thank you, Nicole.

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Speaker 1: UM and I suppose that brings us to um the

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Speaker 1: episode that you're about to hear. Yes, So this was

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Speaker 1: recorded at the Brooklyn Podcast Festival back in January at

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Speaker 1: the Bell House with guest Hunter Harris. It was a

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Speaker 1: simpler time. It was so much fun. It was a

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Speaker 1: sold out show, UM about Black Swan, which is, as

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Speaker 1: you will hear, a dense movie. So we also had

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Speaker 1: a few things. We had so much to say about

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Speaker 1: this movie that it didn't actually all fit into the

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Speaker 1: live show, so you will hear you know, uh Dystopian

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Speaker 1: Caitlin and Jamie popping in with some extra stuff we

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Speaker 1: didn't have time for at the live show. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: with that, enjoy the dog cast the questions asked me

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Speaker 1: was happening all their discussions? Just boy, husband, do they

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Speaker 1: have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best start changing it

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Speaker 1: with the Bedel Cast. Hi, Wow, everybody, Hi, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Baktel Cast Brooklyn. How's it going? You told us

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Speaker 1: it's fine. Hi Jemmy, Hi, Hi, Welcome to the Bactel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming. For everyone who isn't

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Speaker 1: physically present in the future, we're at the Bell House

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Speaker 1: for the Brooklyn Podcast Festival. Yeah, thank you for coming. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're here to talk about the most fucked up movie

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Speaker 1: of all time. I'm so bad. I'm so okay, Lena

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Speaker 1: and I we'll talk about what the punkast is in

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Speaker 1: a second. But Caitlin and I a while ago, we're like,

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Speaker 1: we have to stop talking about funked up movies at

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Speaker 1: live shows because it bums people out. But then we're like,

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Speaker 1: what do you think? Social network? Black Swan and the

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Speaker 1: sixth sense like, so it's fine, it's ourry dark movie tour.

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Speaker 1: It's fine. Yeah. I did a palette cleanser before tonight's show.

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Speaker 1: I should have done this after this, but I went

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Speaker 1: to see Paddington Gets in a jam Today, Caitlin, I

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Speaker 1: have a quick question because I know the answer. Were

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Speaker 1: you the only adult without a child at the show? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I was, go off quick, Okay, wonderful, thank you. Well.

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Speaker 1: To date, the only Broadway show I've ever seen a

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Speaker 1: spongebout the musical also alone, It's a really good musical.

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Speaker 1: Squid word taps with all six tentacles. It's it's like

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Speaker 1: how they do that, it's it's wilds well. But now

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Speaker 1: none of that passed the Bechdel test because we talked

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Speaker 1: about Paddington words. Squid word right, allies, but does not

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Speaker 1: feminist icmm a zon squidbird. I think you'll all agree.

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Speaker 1: Um so, so I'm Jamie, I Caitlin, and uh, this

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Speaker 1: is our feminist movie podcast. You know that you've paid

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Speaker 1: money to be here. Um, but for for all your

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Speaker 1: listeners at home, is there anyone here who hasn't heard

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Speaker 1: the Bechtel cast before? Who's been Oh, okay, we've been

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Speaker 1: killed hostages. Interesting? Interesting, It just means we have people

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Speaker 1: to convert. Yeah, So for your benefit, this is a

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Speaker 1: feminist movie podcast. We use the Bechdel test sometimes called

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Speaker 1: the Beckdel Wallace test to start discussion. Uh, Caitlin, what

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Speaker 1: is the Bechtel test? Well, Jamie, I'm so glad you asked.

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Speaker 1: It's a media metric created by cartoonists Alison Bechtel, and

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Speaker 1: it requires that two female identifying characters in a movie

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Speaker 1: have to speak to each other about something other than

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Speaker 1: a man. Can it happen in movies? Usually not? It has,

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Speaker 1: but like not overwhelmingly so correct? Do we try it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Let's try it? You start? Okay? Oh funk? I wish

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Speaker 1: I had? I know? I was like, I can only

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Speaker 1: think about Scuppert and pattingson. Um yeah, no, no, no

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Speaker 1: you okay, Hey Caitlin, Hey Jamie, okay, uma? Do you

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Speaker 1: do you identify as? Are you more of like a

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Speaker 1: white swan or a black swan? Oh? Well, isn't that

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Speaker 1: just the human condition? You know? I wake up on

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Speaker 1: one way, I go to sleep the other way. Who

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Speaker 1: knows where I start? More n it all depends on

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Speaker 1: what mommy says. It depends on how mommy treats me

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Speaker 1: that day. Also, we should draw attention to your outfit. Right,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, as I will not shut up

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Speaker 1: about all night. I dance ballet for fifteen years and

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Speaker 1: I've got ship left over. Okay, so I've been waiting

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Speaker 1: for a Black Swan episode for a long time because

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Speaker 1: I've got a lot of ship I'm not using and

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to use again. So for the listeners

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Speaker 1: at home, oh, I didn't say what it was Jamie

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Speaker 1: is wearing? Is this a leotard? Is this what you

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Speaker 1: call this? What do you? Don't be worried? It's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know. It's a later. Oh can I

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Speaker 1: say something very feminine? Okay, I found out two days

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Speaker 1: ago I got I like, got my actual brass eyes

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Speaker 1: measured and there's an asterisk here. But I'm a thirty

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Speaker 1: two C. And I okay, hold your applause, because when

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Speaker 1: I told you two days ago, you got very quiet,

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Speaker 1: as if you did not believe me. Doesn't believe women.

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Speaker 1: It's cannon. I'm canceled. But but you got very quiet.

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Speaker 1: But but including the woman who had measured my BRA's eyes,

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Speaker 1: she was like, you're a thirty two C. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, how is that possible? And she was just like, well,

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Speaker 1: you have the largest ribbed cage I've ever seen. And

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Speaker 1: so that's also factor in. You can have the smallest

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Speaker 1: titties of all time and be a thirty two c

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Speaker 1: we exist. Okay, we were out here. Oh we have

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Speaker 1: someone who just raised her head. They're like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all you need is a ripped cage. You're not really using,

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, I think I was like quiet, and then

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Speaker 1: I was like what my my my boyfriend had stopped

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Speaker 1: passing the baital test. But he said later he said

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Speaker 1: he was like, wow, Caitlin really did not believe you. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was the room in my In her defense, my

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Speaker 1: titties are very small. I think we are all we

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Speaker 1: were all led to believe we live in a society. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we do live in a society leads us to believe

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Speaker 1: that the larger the breast, the larger the cup. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I was surprised. Okay, thank you for that

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Speaker 1: feminist analysis of my literal titties that are out right now. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm wearing ballet, my ballet best tonight. Um

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Speaker 1: because we're talking about black Swan. We're so excited. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's been a long time request and I am so

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Speaker 1: threat like, we have the best possible person in the

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Speaker 1: entire wall to talk about it with us, So let's

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Speaker 1: bring her out. Let's do it. She is wonderful. She's

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Speaker 1: a staff writer at Vulture. Give it up for Hunter.

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Speaker 1: Oh Fish, yes, yes, oh hi, hi, hi Hi? How

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Speaker 1: are you? I I think I drink too much beer

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Speaker 1: in the beer Um, never happened in my life. She's Carolina. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we brought out a full bottle of of of white wine. Um,

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Speaker 1: that feels like a ballet drink. I don't know. Ballerina

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Speaker 1: is gonna drink anything. They drink ecstasy. And in this movie.

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Speaker 1: I'm yeah, Hunter, were so excited you're here, particularly for

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Speaker 1: this movie. Um, so let's let's get into it. What

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Speaker 1: is everyone's experience with Black Swan? What's what's your experience

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Speaker 1: with Hunter? Okay, So when I was in high school,

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Speaker 1: I was like very pretentious obviously, and I remember like

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Speaker 1: when I first started like reading about movies, like new movies.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, this movie black Swan like looks

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Speaker 1: legit because it had won at Venice or something and

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Speaker 1: right and so and then I dragged all my friends

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Speaker 1: to see it, and they like, we all loved it.

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Speaker 1: I like on Facebook when it shows you like ten

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Speaker 1: years ago what your Facebook status was, they were all

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Speaker 1: about black Swan. Um. Most of the time just black

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Speaker 1: Swan and all caps um because I was a writer. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But but um, so we saw it and like loved

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Speaker 1: it and would talk about it every day. And I

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Speaker 1: remember being in speech and debate and my teacher, who

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Speaker 1: I guess I won't name, um was like hated it.

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Speaker 1: Thought it was so like weird and bad and and

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Speaker 1: that was what we got into a big fight about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think, I mean I quit speech and b

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Speaker 1: because I for other reasons, but that was always the

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Speaker 1: back of my mind, like, did not trust this man

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Speaker 1: who did not like Black Swan? Incredible? Uh, Caitlin, was

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Speaker 1: your experience with the movie? I saw it in theaters

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Speaker 1: and in two ten and um, I had only seen

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Speaker 1: it that one time before rewatching it to prep because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this about me, but

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Speaker 1: I love a good romp. In this movie is not

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Speaker 1: a romp. I thought there was gonna be a twist.

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Speaker 1: It's like, how could you have interpreted this? This movie

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Speaker 1: makes me feel terrible, and I don't like watching movies

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Speaker 1: that make me feel terrible. So I saw it. I

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Speaker 1: walked out of the theater. I was with my best friend,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, funk that movie. I feel so horrible,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm never watching this again, but

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Speaker 1: I did. Yeah, so that's my I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 1: about it. But I find this movie very challenging. Wow, Brave,

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Speaker 1: I know, thank you, m Jay. This movie is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite movies of all time, but I cannot

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Speaker 1: watch it too often because it's like trigger It like

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Speaker 1: is triggering in every single possible way a movie. Like

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Speaker 1: after I watch it, I'm like, I remember why Mental

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Speaker 1: Illness was kind of fun, uh, like maybe we should

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Speaker 1: revisit it. And then you're like wait wait wait wait, no, no,

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Speaker 1: and then you watch and then I watched the end.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh right, that's why we don't do that anymore.

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Speaker 1: But I really I love this movie. This movie came

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Speaker 1: out at like I was like very into dance growing up,

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Speaker 1: and this came out at like the peak of that.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know it when in two

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Speaker 1: thousand kind of came out. So I was like either

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Speaker 1: a senior in high school where I had just entered college,

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Speaker 1: and I saw it with my dance friends and we

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Speaker 1: were all we all took away the wrong message from it.

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Speaker 1: We were like, Wow, her pursuit for greatness paid off

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Speaker 1: like were we were so thrilled about it, Like I

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Speaker 1: love this movie. It makes me and I think, like

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Speaker 1: the more I watch it, the older I get, the

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Speaker 1: more anxious it makes me. Um. But but I but

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's like almost a testament to the

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Speaker 1: movie where there were mental illness symptoms portrayed in this

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Speaker 1: movie that I hadn't even begun to display when I

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Speaker 1: first said. And then I watch it, you know, six

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Speaker 1: or seven years later, I'm like, oh, the scratching right,

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, like there's there's a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in this movie, and it weirdly specifically appealed to

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Speaker 1: me at the exact moment it came out. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to defend it too much? Okay, Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: should we do the recap and go from let's recap?

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Speaker 1: So we meet Nina. That's Natalie Portman. Nina sayers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she's a very dedicated ballet dancer in New York City.

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Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? Uh? For I believe? Is it

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Speaker 1: just called the New York City Ballet Company? I think?

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Speaker 1: So where is it real? I think it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's real. It's real. Okay, Okay, I'm not a dancer. Okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't that good. We opened on a scary dream

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Speaker 1: she's having, and then strange things start happening to her

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Speaker 1: right away, like she sees a woman on the subway

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Speaker 1: who looks exactly like her, and it's like doing the

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Speaker 1: same little hairtuck behind the ear. I like the immediately

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Speaker 1: in this movie, you're like, oh, mirrors a metaphor like

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Speaker 1: and it keeps going, it doesn't stop. It's assuming that

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Speaker 1: you're not getting it the first time. Something that I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize until I was on Wikipedia like four hours ago,

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Speaker 1: is that she's supposed to be twenty years old in

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Speaker 1: this movie. Yeah, she's clearly thirty. Interesting. We meet Lily

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Speaker 1: that's me Lacunas, she is a new dancer to the company,

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Speaker 1: and then we also meet toma Um that's Vincent Castle. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's like the director of the company. Who is Vincent Castle?

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Speaker 1: Am I supposed to know who he is? And if so,

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Speaker 1: why some stuff? Yea, he's like a famous French movie

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Speaker 1: star and he's married like a beautiful younger woman, so

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Speaker 1: I should I mean, that's grounds fair enough, okay, fair enough.

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Speaker 1: He announces that they'll open their season with Swan Lake.

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Speaker 1: Um but a more like a gritty version of it

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Speaker 1: this time there like it's Chris Nolan's uh, and he

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Speaker 1: needs a lead who can dance the Swan Queen, which

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Speaker 1: is means to do both the white Swan and the

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Speaker 1: Black Swan. He basically just like raises his hand. He's like, um,

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Speaker 1: I need the Madonna whore complex represented in this movie.

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Speaker 1: Can anyone? So Nina is auditioning, but Lily barges in

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Speaker 1: and throws Nina off, so she does get cast in

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Speaker 1: that role. Also because Toma only sees her as being

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Speaker 1: right for the white Swan because she's like very innocent

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Speaker 1: and controlled, And she goes to ask him for the part,

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Speaker 1: and then he forces himself on her and kisses her

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Speaker 1: and she bites back, and this convinces him that she

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Speaker 1: is dark and edgy enough somehow. God, it's that like

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Speaker 1: he's like, you passed the text. It's like I assaulted

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Speaker 1: you and you assaulted me back, like you're just like okay,

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Speaker 1: ballet is the most fucked up thing in the entire world.

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Speaker 1: But also in that scene, she's like her big transformation

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Speaker 1: is that she's just wearing lipstick like like and he says, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're so dulled up like the lipstick ice over my

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Speaker 1: note a writer. Yeah yeah, and that literally is what

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Speaker 1: oh that's great. So she now it has been cast

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Speaker 1: is the Swan queen and Toma shows her off at

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Speaker 1: this is that a gala. I don't know what a

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Speaker 1: gallet is. There's a staircase. There's a staircase. It's a

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Speaker 1: galas fancy and um. This woman Beth When On a

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Speaker 1: Writer's character is there and she used to be the

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Speaker 1: prima ballerina of the company, but she's being forced into

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Speaker 1: retirement because she is aging and right and and just

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Speaker 1: to be clear, aging in this movie is like ballet aging.

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Speaker 1: And when When On a Writer was thirty eight when

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Speaker 1: this movie came out. She's there like this old hag

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Speaker 1: and like she is like she's still got eggs, Like

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Speaker 1: she's fine, you know, I think she says that too.

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Speaker 1: She's like, no, I still have eggs were talking about

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Speaker 1: because they're like, oh, she's hitting menopause, and she's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually not, like I'm in my sexual prime. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And at the end of this night, Toma has Nina

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Speaker 1: back to his place and he's very he's being very creepy.

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Speaker 1: He's asking about her sexual history, and then he gives

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Speaker 1: her a homework assignment, which is to touch herself, and

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Speaker 1: we're all like appropriate silence. Yeah, yikes. Has a male

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Speaker 1: teacher ever given you a creepy homework assignment? Not that creepy,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to say, congratulations. I had a sure in

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Speaker 1: high school who was once. It was not like Vincent

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Speaker 1: cassel Castle or whatever France. I don't know. Um. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like go home and jerk off, but he was

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Speaker 1: like I had an art teacher. He told you like

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Speaker 1: to chug. He told me to chug robotesting. He was like,

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Speaker 1: do you have cough medicine in your house? I'm like yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he's like is it robotest And I'm like CBS

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Speaker 1: brand clothes and he's and he was like, you should

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Speaker 1: drink it. And then I did and I took. So

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Speaker 1: he says drink it and you're like and I said

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Speaker 1: walking home, like yeah, let's let me go do that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Because he was twenty six and I was fifteen, and

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Speaker 1: so I was like, I better do what he says.

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Speaker 1: And then I went home and I drank the robotestin

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I feel sick. And then I

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Speaker 1: took a picture on my sony digital camera. Unfortunately that's

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Speaker 1: where the story ends. But um, you know, I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that happened. Very well, I'm fine, Okay. So the following morning,

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Speaker 1: after being given this creepy homework assignment, she follows through

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Speaker 1: and starts masturbating. But oh, her overbearing mother is in

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Speaker 1: the room. Does everyone remember where they were the first

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Speaker 1: time they saw this scene. It's like so alarming. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And then other weird stuff keeps happening. Um, there's scratches

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Speaker 1: on her back, there's like some other body horror stuff

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Speaker 1: happening with her fingernails. I just want to speak about

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Speaker 1: the nails for one moment, because the thing that just,

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Speaker 1: you know, really grinds my gears is that in this movie,

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Speaker 1: the mom takes out scissors and clips her fingernails and

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Speaker 1: just acts like this is normal, Like my god. And

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Speaker 1: then later in the movie when she like the body

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Speaker 1: horror increases and she's like, okay, enough of this nail ship,

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Speaker 1: she takes scissors herself and does it. Like there's nothing

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Speaker 1: else in the home. Who has nail scissors. We all

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Speaker 1: have nail clippers, right, These are like children's scissors. No,

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Speaker 1: they're not They're like, they're like sewing scissors, like they're sharp. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they're just like so clearly not meant for human nails. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just think that needs to be discussed, thank you.

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Speaker 1: There's no context given for why there are no nail

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Speaker 1: clippers in the house. It takes place in the present day.

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Speaker 1: They live near a Dwayne read like they could have them.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't be hard. Okay, So does anything else happened?

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Speaker 1: That's the end of the movie. Um, And then we

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Speaker 1: find out that Beth has had a horrible accident that

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Speaker 1: leaves her legs badly disfigured. And meanwhile, Nina is practicing

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Speaker 1: and working very hard on the upcoming show. And then

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Speaker 1: Toma is like, you're not fuckable enough when you're dancing.

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Speaker 1: It's we're like, oh jeez um, that's what she says.

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Speaker 1: And Lily is showing up more and more trying to

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Speaker 1: be friends with Nina or is she We don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like there's an unreliable narrator in this movie.

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Speaker 1: But they all go out for drinks, Lily and Nina,

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Speaker 1: and then Lily gives her um, is this ecstasy? I

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Speaker 1: don't know how drugs work. I think like, Cale and

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Speaker 1: I were talking about this backstage. Caleb was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So then she takes an ecstasy, she has one unit

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Speaker 1: of ecstasy, she has an ecstasy based on the ecstasy,

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Speaker 1: and then that's the line. That's the line. And then

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Speaker 1: the night progresses and then uh, Nina and Lily go

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Speaker 1: home together, they make out and they have sex or

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Speaker 1: do they the queer painting of a generation someone's cheering

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Speaker 1: the ground. Um. Then the following morning, Nina is like,

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Speaker 1: is late getting to rehearsal and Lily is there dancing

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Speaker 1: in her place. Lily's like, yeah, I didn't stay over,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? So either she's like gaslighting

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Speaker 1: Nina or Nina just imagine them having sex. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then she finds out that Lily was made her alternate

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Speaker 1: for the Swan Queen and she thinks that Lily is

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Speaker 1: trying to steal her role. And then on the night

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Speaker 1: of the performance she shows up, but she's like all

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Speaker 1: disoriented to her mental state, which has been unraveling this

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Speaker 1: whole time. Is an all time worse. That's not the

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Speaker 1: name of the band came in. It's an all time love. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I said it, Like that Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's definitely not an expression. Okay. But so she's like

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Speaker 1: seeing visions of herself on other people's faces during the show,

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Speaker 1: and then between acts she's growing feathers. Also her feet

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Speaker 1: or webs. Her feet are web her eyes are blood

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Speaker 1: shot or are they? Oh? And then and then during

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Speaker 1: the show she is dropped. That's like, I just think

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Speaker 1: we need to take a moment for that, because that's

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Speaker 1: like a big She's dropped and starts freaking out, and

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Speaker 1: then she's like, okay, fuck this puts on the Black

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Speaker 1: Swan makeup and she's like, let's get it popping right.

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Speaker 1: But I think before that she gets in a fight

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Speaker 1: with Lily in her dressing room or does she and

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Speaker 1: stabs her with a piece of broken mirror or does she?

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Speaker 1: And then Nina like drags her body into the bathroom

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Speaker 1: and then goes out as the Black Swan and like

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Speaker 1: does she does great as the Black Swan? Everyone loves

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Speaker 1: do ye uh? And then there's another act break and

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Speaker 1: Nina comes down to a dressing room, but Lily's body

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Speaker 1: is not there and it never was or was it?

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Speaker 1: So didn't she stab She has stabbed herself? Is what happened?

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Speaker 1: Can I okay, I've as someone who has never stabbed themselves,

400
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: it seems like a pretty little stab. Maybe she punctures

401
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 1: an organ or something. I don't know, but she pulls out.

402
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: She's like, it's deep, but it's little. No, that child

403
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: of glass was like an in twide. Someone was like

404
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: and like, I was like, I feel like you could.

405
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: People could stabbed a lot of times and they're okay, um,

406
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Speaker 1: according I don't mean to challenge, but I'm like, I

407
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: don't think. But I think you're assuming that she's like

408
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: a reliable narrator in this moment. I don't think we

409
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Speaker 1: know necessarily how much because she breaks so much glass

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Speaker 1: and it's like gone the next time she comes back,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't think we know exactly how deep

412
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Speaker 1: the injury is it. And also the costume itself is

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00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: so lush and there's so much tool t U L

414
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: L E that just you it was the other kind

415
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: of tool all so looks like gauze, Like her costume

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00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: is made of gauze, Like is this common? And also

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Speaker 1: we see in the previous scene that she goes to

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Speaker 1: see Beth in the hospital and Beth stabs herself, but

419
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: it's kind of clear that that isn't actually what happens,

420
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: or is it, but like it's maybe it's like there's

421
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: a million she's she looks at Beth stabbing herself, and

422
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: then she turns back and it's like suddenly her face

423
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: stabbing her, Nina's face stabbing Nina. So she could have

424
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: been stabbing herself for several hours before this happens, and

425
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: it's like no one caught this, even even at the

426
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: end when Vincent Castle Cassel is looking over and it's like,

427
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: you were so great, and then everyone's like, oh, and

428
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: there she's covered in blood. Right, How does no one

429
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: notice for like two minutes? I get why the audience

430
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: hasn't noticed because she's really far away, but everyone's congratulating

431
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: her for like seconds, but where they're like, oh, she's dead.

432
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: She can't hear us, right, which is how the movie ends.

433
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: So Lily, so sorry, Nina has apparently stabbed herself and

434
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: then she dies at the end of the performance, and

435
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: that's the end of the movie. So let's talk about it.

436
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: Oh boy, there's so much. There's a there's a lot

437
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: to talk about with this movie. I I'm gonna cut

438
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: this movie. A lot of slack for a movie that

439
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: we have to say right at the top. It was

440
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: directed by Darren Aronovski. As most people know, it was

441
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: written by three men who aren't Darren Aronovsky. Um, which

442
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: is somehow miraculous they managed to is he is he

443
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: Darren Darren I did invite him, Darren I just tweeted

444
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: Darren Arnovsky, please come. I do hope you're wearing about

445
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: this scarf thing? Yeah? He in do you know what

446
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: the scarf thing? Okay, let me get that. My very

447
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: about Darren Aronofsky is that he loves wearing scarves and

448
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: he's like rarely spotted without a scarf, and they're always

449
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: like just so ostentatiously large. Um. And I think it

450
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: was Huffington's Postum. A reporter asked him, like, why do

451
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: you always wear scarves? And he was like the weakness

452
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: of my body is my throat, which, you know what,

453
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: what a way to say a thing. It's all I'm

454
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: gonna say about that. That's also like, oh, something anyone

455
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: could say, but he says as if it's specific to him.

456
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: What does he say? You know how someone's like, oh,

457
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: I don't like my you know, arms? Like is he

458
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: insecure about it? Or is he saying like someone might

459
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: slash my throat and I have to cover it up.

460
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 1: What if that said? What if he's like the knives

461
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: are out, I like, I have to keeper buttoned up.

462
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: My favorite Aronofski fact is that Jennifer Lawrence broke up

463
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: with him because he wouldn't shut up about Mother's reviews.

464
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: He's just a fragile person. Um, mother, mother, exclamation point too,

465
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: that's important. Um, wow mother, what a moment. Yeah, okay,

466
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: So where's there? Where should we start? Uh, there's a

467
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: lot of ways we can start. I mean I think that. Um.

468
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: One of the big things for us to talk about

469
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: is I I feel like something where this movie really

470
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: is like cool and succeeds is in kind of encompassing

471
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: a lot of different ways where it seems like Nina's

472
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: downfall and like some of the specifics of this kind

473
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: of miss but Nina's downfall seems to be this big

474
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: pile up of expectations of women where she's trying to

475
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: be everything at once and there's no way anyone can

476
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: be everything at once and when she tries to be

477
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the second she succeeds, she died. So, I mean, like,

478
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: there's so much being asked her, and I feel like

479
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: him choosing ballet is like a very deliberate in doing so,

480
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: because it's so over the top of those expectations where

481
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: her body has to be a very particular way, and

482
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: we see, you know, she has an eating disorder and

483
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: she has to like suffer to look a certain way,

484
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: and um, her director is demanding the Madonna whore complex

485
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: from her, where like you have to be a virgin,

486
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: but you also have to be a slut and like

487
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: and if she isn't both at once, he's mad at

488
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: her and he retaliates against her, and like she's she's

489
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: trying to be all these things at once while also

490
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: being told by everyone around her, like if she has

491
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: a thought or like any sort of like problem or

492
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: mental illness of her own, there's no time for it,

493
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: and she can't deal with it. And it's just like

494
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: every single thing piles up on her to the point

495
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: where her like what happens to her makes sense or

496
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: that's how I I'm just I'm just like, you know,

497
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: justice for Nina. But she was perfect, so was it

498
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: worth it? She was really good? So for me, Okay,

499
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: Darren Aronofsky, he loves an allegory. We've all seen Mother,

500
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: No we haven't. It's the most popular movie. No, And

501
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: I think he handles like metaphor better in Black Swan.

502
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: But I feel like, right this the narrative is sort

503
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: of like an allegory or metaphor for you know, a

504
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: woman's role in society and uh, the expectation to be

505
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: a certain way and to be perfect and to be

506
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: striving for that perfection, and also coming up against different

507
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: things like sexual predators and just the sort of different

508
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: relationship dynamics that are in some ways like women competing

509
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: against each other or idea of aging right here, yes,

510
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: so all these different things that the movie handles well,

511
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: watch your words, be very careful, my okay. My whole

512
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: thing is that I think one of the reasons this

513
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: is so challenging for me, this movie to to talk about. Like, yes,

514
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: it addresses a lot of things, and you could argue

515
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: that like the Ballet Company is sort of like a

516
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: microcosm of the patriarchy and all this stuff like that,

517
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: but the movie, again, the movie makes me feel horrible.

518
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: So while it's like, yes, addressing things and it's like

519
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: here's how society be, uh, I there's this I don't know.

520
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 1: It's just like there's so few like I don't feel

521
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: empowered by this movie, and that's not the intention. It's

522
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: not the intention, But I'm just like, where are the

523
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: movies that like I can feel empowered by? Where are

524
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: the prompts? I know? So like I'm coming at it

525
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: with like this bias of like it makes me feel

526
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: bad and I don't like it, but there's value to

527
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: it and I'm going to try to I'm gonna check

528
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: my feelings anyway. Okay, let's move Okay. Um, I don't

529
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: know a hunter. Is there any like any particularly like them?

530
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: This movie addresses that like stands out to you especially. Yeah.

531
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: The thing that I always come back to is like

532
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 1: this idea of Nina being like a child. She lives

533
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: with her mother on the Upper West Side, which is

534
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: you know whatever, but um, but even I feel like

535
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: it's kind of like one of the bigger reveals in

536
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: the movies when she's masturbating and then you like pants

537
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: out and you see like how pink her bedroom is.

538
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: It's like she sleeps with stuff, animals, g everything, Like

539
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: she has like a music box that her mom talks

540
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: her in at night and all of this stuff that

541
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: it's like a woman has raised her to be sort

542
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: of infantile in a way, to be like molded by men.

543
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: But at the same time the men in her life,

544
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: the man in her life is like, that's not what

545
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: I want you to be. He's like asking her to

546
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: present differently, to be more salacious and sexy and sexual.

547
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: And it's funny because a lot of like I was

548
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: reading about this today that Natalie Aportman, like Danna Knoski,

549
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: was like trying to figure out who could be the

550
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: Lily character, who could look enough like Natalie Portman for

551
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: it to be like a convincing double that's not just

552
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: her playing this other part. And it's like some of

553
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: the some of the ways the camera shoots Mila Kunas

554
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: and Allie Portman is like identical, and you get the

555
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: sense that like these are sort of like one can't

556
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: exists without the other. Harry Potter, Um wow, so sorry,

557
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: um no, keep going, that's like the second Harry Potter.

558
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: Everyone's I've made today, Like I'm done, Um cut the

559
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,959
Speaker 1: cameras that has sorry, uh. But I think like that

560
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: sort of duality is really interesting, and I think the

561
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: way that visually they sort of exploit their likeness is

562
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: really cool. Um. And also just that like even there's

563
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: somethings about Natie's performance of this movie, although I do

564
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: think she should have wanted her oscar for Jackie, But um,

565
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: thank you the same way. Wow, Okay, no, I mean

566
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: that in a good way. Um. The way that like

567
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman changes her voice throughout the movie I think

568
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: is really like cool. And the scenes with her mom

569
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: she's like, I just want to dance and then sorry

570
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: about that, and then and then later she's like, I'm

571
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: the Swan queen. It's like, okay, okay, raise your voice.

572
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: That stuff I think is really cool, like how she

573
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: is playing with just like femininity and like womanhood in

574
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: terms of aging. Yeah, I mean, I like one of

575
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: the things that I like, didn't I definitely didn't catch

576
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: on the first few because in the first few I'm like,

577
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: this is good mental health and how I should act. Um.

578
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: But the you know, media is complicated. But um, you

579
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: were like what a romp. I'm like, wow, can't wait

580
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: to go to Balarie rehearsal tomorrow. But like the the

581
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: idea of um Melik, like Lily's character is the only

582
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: person in the entire movie, who ever calls out Thomas's

583
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: behavior for what it is, which is like creepy, manipulative, predatory.

584
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: She's the only person that ever explicitly says like what

585
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: he's doing is wrong and it's very obvious that it's wrong,

586
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: and the and and the fact that that is kind

587
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: of twisted. And then we see like his character, you know,

588
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: like Lily warns her, and there's a lot of warnings

589
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: for Nina that kind of goes unheeded in this movie,

590
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: but like Lily warrant her, Oh, he called Binoda Ryder

591
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: little princess. He'll be calling you a little princess any

592
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: day now, and not only important. And it's like, no,

593
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: I'm not like the other girls. I'm different. And Mila

594
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: Kunas is like she's like here ecstasy. And then and

595
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: then like twenty four seconds before Natalie Portman dies, he

596
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: calls her little princess. And so you see that the

597
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: only like male relationship that Nina ever has in this

598
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: entire movie is not about her at all, Like it's

599
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: just about his perception of what a woman and like

600
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: what the woman he needs to do this job should be,

601
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 1: and not who the person actually is, because he just

602
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: conflates when a writer with Natalie Portman and when Wina

603
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: Wrider turned thirty eight, he's like, okay, you have to

604
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: walk in front of a car. Now I need a

605
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: quote unquote twenty year old, you know like that, It's

606
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: it's it's very clear where he's coming from. And and

607
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: so I don't know, Yeah, I just I think this

608
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: movie is all time. But with that, I think something

609
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: that there's like a hint in the movie that Lily

610
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: is sleeping with Toma. There's one part where he's where

611
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, I ran in him this morning, and

612
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: it's like it's six o'clock. What time was this morning? Um?

613
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: And then also Nina has like a hallucination where Toma

614
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: and she's like walking in on them having sex, but

615
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: then he turns into like the Rothbart thank you, um,

616
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: And it's almost like that. I mean, the thing I

617
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: don't like about this movie is that it's such a

618
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: like strict binary like Nina goddess, Lily whore. But I

619
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 1: think in a in a different way, it's like really

620
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: doesn't believe the things Thomas says about any of them.

621
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 1: She she understands inherently, like she's succeeding for reasons I

622
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: don't have anything to do with her, because he finds

623
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: her sufficiently fuckable, and that's something that like Nina never understands.

624
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: She believes everything that everyone tells her and tries to

625
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: meet everythinger perfection, and that is why she dies, but

626
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 1: also why she was a great Pallorina. So it's yeah,

627
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: like in terms of survival, this movie comes down firmly

628
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: like you've gotta be horror to live like pretty only

629
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: like only exactly when a man wants to have sex

630
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: with you, and then like the rest of the time,

631
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I mean, it's just like Lily is

632
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: the only one who sees through his act and is

633
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: able to like thrive above it because she sees it

634
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: for what it is. She kind of, I guess, meets

635
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: him on his terms when she feels like she needs to,

636
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: and then when she doesn't, she's like, yeah, he's a

637
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: fucking like idiot, Like I I'm gonna do an extasye.

638
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't care where where, Like you know,

639
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: like Nina's character is the like the virginal you know,

640
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: she still lives with her mom, and that's a whole

641
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,760
Speaker 1: other discussion and and so this is like her first

642
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: male relationship, and so she's entering it from this kind

643
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: of like Disney Princess, like, Oh, this is he cares

644
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: about me. He must that this is everything that I've

645
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,919
Speaker 1: been taught that this will be. And that like sort

646
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: of leads to her downfall is her thinking that he

647
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: would genuinely care about her. What I like is that

648
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: at the end she hears that he really never cared

649
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: about her the whole time when he calls her little princess.

650
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: But by that point she doesn't care because she has

651
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: succeeded in the way that she wanted to succeed, partially

652
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: for her. And then when you see her make like

653
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: eye contact with Barbara hershey, I'm like, and I guess

654
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: for her weird mom. H And so it is like,

655
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: as devastating as it is that she dies at the end,

656
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: you know that at least she is succeeded on her

657
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: own terms, and the only way that she could succeed

658
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: on her own terms, by this movie's logic, is to

659
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: collapse under all the pressure she's been under the whole time. Yeah,

660
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: bum bummer. We were talking about her and her mom

661
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: a little bit because I think that that is like

662
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: a really interesting dynamic. I mean, you don't get to

663
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 1: see a ton of like in depth mother daughter relationships

664
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: on screen really at all, and so you know, when

665
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: you get one, you're like, I hope it's really fucked up,

666
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: you know, I hope it's unhealthy, and I can't learn

667
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: anything from it. Um. That said, first of all, the

668
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: real star of the mother daughter dynamic in this movie,

669
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: I feel is that cake that she gets. Okay, I disagree,

670
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: but I like that. Oh, I like that cake. That's

671
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: when Barbara hers she gets, um, the two of them

672
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: sheet cake. When so Nina's mom gets Nina and her

673
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: the only people who live in that house, a gigantic,

674
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: like star market sheet cake when Nina okay, regional reference wrong, um,

675
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: but they get her a huge sheet cake when she

676
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: gets the part of a Swan queen. And then Nina's like,

677
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: as we know, everyone in this household is annarexic, and

678
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: Nina's mom says, well, fine, I'll throw it away and

679
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: like dramatically is about to whisk this fourteen dollar cake

680
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: into the trash and like that's the first gaslight we

681
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: see of this relationship. But I mean, I think that

682
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: like it would be kind of an easy read of

683
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: this relationship, because it's later revealed that Nina's mom was

684
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: also invested in being a ballerina, but had to drop

685
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: out of being involved in ballet when she got pregnant

686
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: with Nina. Therefore some very specific inherited trauma of I

687
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: can't be ballerina, so you am ballerina. Um, and we

688
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: don't deal with mental illness. We don't talk about it. Um. Yeah.

689
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: Her solution is stay in your room until you feel better. Well,

690
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: she's like, let me cut your nails too, with scissors,

691
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: with whatever is around. Um, And I thought I And

692
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: it's like I feel like like I originally when I

693
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: was rewatching this, I'm like, oh, I hope she's just

694
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: not reduced to I am like a jealous stage mom.

695
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: But I feel like the movie does do a little

696
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: more than that, where it is clear that she resents

697
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 1: her daughter for taking quote unquote and this is like

698
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: another commentary I feel like on the way the movie

699
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: deals with aging and how women are treated in this

700
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: specific world. But when you're a woman who's pregnant, you're

701
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: not useful to ballet, and so you're taken out and

702
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: she resents her daughter instead of the system that creates

703
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: that narrative. And then from there, what I like is

704
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 1: you like it would be easy to be like, why

705
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: is Nina's still there? You know, she's making her own living,

706
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: she's a ballerina, Like why wouldn't she stay? But we

707
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: learned because of Nina's past mental health problems, which is

708
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: like alluded to through the scratching and all these other

709
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: indicators that on top of being stage mom and resentful,

710
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: she's also trying to be a good mom by knowing

711
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 1: that her daughter has had these mental health breaks before

712
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: and feeling like someone needs to keep an eye on her.

713
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: And so I was worried on the rewatch that there

714
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: would be no grounded reason for Nina to stay and

715
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: no grounded reason for the mom to want to keep

716
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: her there. But I feel like that is kind of

717
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 1: provided of she She wants to protect her daughter, but

718
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: the way she protects her makes it more likely for

719
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: her to have a mental health break again, which I

720
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: don't know. Someone should call my mom about that, We

721
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: don't know. I love how much you're interrogating that that

722
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: specific choice, because I was like, oh, it's New York,

723
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: Like I bet it's too expensive for her to live

724
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: anywhere else. Um. But no, all of that is absolutely

725
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,720
Speaker 1: true too. What I so your favorite set piece between

726
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 1: them was the cake? My favorite is when Nina walks in.

727
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: It's like sort of an open like living area where

728
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: Nina practices ballet. And then her mom has just like

729
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 1: all these portraits that she's painted of Nina. They're all

730
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: so and all that different styles. Did she take a class?

731
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: And and at one point the mom she like walks

732
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: into her mom just like sobbing and like painting a

733
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: photo of her, and it's like what okay, um? And

734
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: then later when she's like having another hauslation, she sees

735
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: all like these images of herself like done impost like

736
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: sobbing too, like streaming at her, and it's like, what

737
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: if if my mom painted anything, I'd be like stop

738
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: just I don't know who's no more? Um. But I

739
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: do think that that's like one of the most interesting

740
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: like frictions in the movies between it and her mom,

741
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: because later she says to when whenever her mom brings

742
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: up like, oh, I could have been a ballerina as

743
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: like as I could have been good as good as

744
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: you are, but I got pregnant and then under her

745
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: breath and just like okay, but you never made it

746
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: out of the core. And she's like, and you were

747
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: twenty eight because twenty eight is so old twenty year

748
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: old guys like, oh my god, right, and we're like okay,

749
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: Natalie Forman, Sure, I don't know. I feel like and

750
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: maybe this is just me, but I felt like the

751
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: mother character was characterized as being like pretty cartoony, like

752
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 1: like overbearing mom. I know, I know she is, but

753
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: they're also you have the reason, like you have the reasons,

754
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: and you also have the unreliable like I guess like

755
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: one of the things with this movie is you can

756
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: justify almost anything that happens in the movie of like, well,

757
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: Nina is an unreliable narrator, so it makes sense, like

758
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: you don't like the way she's seeing every character is

759
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: a little bit heightened. I guess you're supposed to assume

760
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: to what is actually happening true, And that's the case. Yeah,

761
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean right, that's the case for all of her,

762
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: all of the female relationships in this movie. Because on

763
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: one hand, it might just be that Lily is trying

764
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: to reach out and be like, hey, I want to

765
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 1: be your friend. You seem cool. Uh, let's hang out.

766
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: But through Nina's kind of unraveling lens, she thinks that

767
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: Lily is trying to steal her part and replace her

768
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. So still never quite clear to

769
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: me what is true there and what isn't It's not

770
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: clear right And then does everyone think, Okay, what do

771
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: you think Lily is trying to do? I feel like

772
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: she was just like being nice, but she didn't have

773
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: any of their friends because she was also so cool

774
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: with like the girls in the Core that were like

775
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: in the very first scene like mean to Nina, and

776
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 1: Nina was like she was and you why is she test?

777
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: There's so many there's so many scenes even at the

778
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: that Gallow, like Nina's in the bathroom, Lily comes in

779
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: and she like slips off her underpants. Why did she

780
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: do that? Because she's about to funk that guy? Oh

781
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: wait what guy I miss? Oh wait? Oh wait. Sebastian

782
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: stand is in this, but that was not Sash and

783
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: another that was a different that was a different, but

784
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 1: anyone could be Sebastian and really like I every time

785
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,919
Speaker 1: Sebastian stands on screen, I'm like, is that who that is? Like?

786
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: I've never fully identified who that is. Did you did

787
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: you watch Girl? Do you wtch a gossip Girl when

788
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 1: you were younger? I did? Yeah, I did watch Gossip Girl.

789
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: And I still don't know who he is, like I

790
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: says abashion Stand and probably the majority of his projects,

791
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: and every time he shows up, I'm like, who, like?

792
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: That's his name? Is what? Like? And Caitlin texted me

793
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: today like, oh wow, did you spot Sebastian Stand? Because

794
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: I Tanya is my favorite movie and I'm just like,

795
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 1: I have no fucking clue who that man is there.

796
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: Sebastian Stand could be in the audience right now and

797
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: I could sebash him on my way to the bathroom.

798
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: I have no idea Christian are here, They're in the back,

799
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: their friend there's there? Who is Sebastian Stand? I'm sorry?

800
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: But then, okay, so we've got that we have the

801
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: mother daughter relationship, we have uh Nina and Lily, and

802
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: then we have like the Nina and Beth relationship, and

803
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: all of these relationships are poised as being antagonistic. But

804
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: like you said, can we write that off as just

805
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 1: being as Nina being an unreliable narrator? Or is this

806
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 1: movie written by men. Yeah, I do think Beth is pissed,

807
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: Like come on. Also, I like this sort of meta

808
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: idea that if this movie were made like twenty years earlier,

809
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: went on a ride would be like in the Nina role, right,

810
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: that's like such anti thing, um but I love that,

811
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: Like what is what does she say whenever they're at

812
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: the galup, like everyone is gone? Beth is like he

813
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: always thaid you were so frigid, and he was like what,

814
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: who didn't say that about me? It's like okay, but

815
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,240
Speaker 1: then okay, so in that okay, uh, this relationship. Sorry,

816
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: let me find this in my copious notes here. Well,

817
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: but Beth is I feel like Beth Beth and Nina's

818
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: mom are used as the Like they're both used in

819
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 1: a way to comment on how age is perceived in

820
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: the ballet world. And then this movie, the bow let

821
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: world is supposed to be the world. Um so in

822
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 1: like Nina's mom's case, like she became pregnant and that's

823
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: what halted her career, and then in Winnoda writer's case,

824
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: she became thirty five and that's what halted her career.

825
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: And so they're both kind of being used to comment

826
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: on the same issue in a different way. And I

827
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: think also because Beth doesn't have a family or doesn't

828
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: have kids, and she's like still sort of sleeping with Toma,

829
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: It's like, well, there's literally nothing for you to do,

830
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: Like there's we can't even keep you around. We have

831
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: to literally create the circumstance for you to like be

832
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: pushed up. Yeah, that was like the one I think

833
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: relationship in the movie with Nina, Like with Nina that

834
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: I didn't get everything out of that I kind of

835
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 1: wanted to. That was the one relationship that I left

836
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: being like like Beth was a little under like they're

837
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: served right, because like kind of the beat by Be

838
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 1: situation with her story is that before we even see

839
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: her on screen, there are various characters being like, oh,

840
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: she's going through menopause and yeah, my grandma is a

841
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 1: good dancer to like, but talking shop on her for

842
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: her like for her aging, and Nina defends her, and

843
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: then we see her trashing her dressing room, presumably right

844
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 1: after she's been told that like she has to retire,

845
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: and then we see her drunk at the gala and

846
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 1: she calls Nina a whore. She's like, you sucked his

847
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: dick or whatever, and Nina's like, not all of us

848
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 1: have to, implying that Beth did have to. So she

849
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: had been defending her and now she's like, well, you're

850
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: the whore. And that's like the kind of like I

851
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: felt like the way that Beth acted in that scene.

852
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: That was like one of the moments where I'm like,

853
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: Beth more than anyone in this entire yala uh, like

854
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: Beth more than anyone here. Knows what Tomas's game is,

855
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: So why would she be victimizing a young woman when

856
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: she knows who the person doing it is? Like that was.

857
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: That was like one of the writing moments where I

858
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:13,919
Speaker 1: was a little bit confused Nina for replacing her quote

859
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: unquote when she should be mad Atma, and she's been

860
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: there long enough that I feel like she would know

861
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: who to be mad at. So that was. But she's

862
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: not a perfect person, like no, and she's drunk, right.

863
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,839
Speaker 1: But there's also another key moment that is, after Beth

864
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: trashes her room, Nina goes in and starts like picking

865
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: out her things that she takes her lipstick and like

866
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: her nail file and her earrings. Those her earrings. Yeah,

867
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: And I think that is like it adds another of

868
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: complexity that sort of Nina's trying on this persona I

869
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: think serves subconsciously she wants to be or at least

870
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: have Beth's status, but doesn't understand how to use it

871
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: or what it means. And that's why she's like, well,

872
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 1: not all of us have to and best like bitch

873
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: do and I like that. It's a another example of

874
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: Nina like having no clue what she's actually doing or

875
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: how to meet the expectations of like a man that

876
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: is awful, and that's like kind of ultimately what the

877
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: Beth character is. It's like narratively, she's supposed to be

878
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: like a warning to Nina of like, if you're not

879
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: careful and if you don't treat yourself specifically and not

880
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: the craft you're in carefully, you will end up like this.

881
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: If you trust Tomas, this is where you'll end up.

882
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 1: And she kind of ignores that and blames Beth versus

883
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: this like the system that made Beth the way she was.

884
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: And then Nina, you know, dies ten years earlier than

885
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: Beeth does. And Nina is a snob though because how

886
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,880
Speaker 1: she's raised by her mom, like she's been raised to

887
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 1: look down upon Ballerina's like Beth, who are getting older,

888
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,399
Speaker 1: but who also didn't exist purely on talent the way

889
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: that she thinks that she has, which we don't know

890
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: if she I mean, it's like it's it's confusing. Um,

891
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,359
Speaker 1: there there's a quick So one of the I think

892
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: the big things to talk about here that I just

893
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: want to get out while we have time is the

894
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: mental health themes going on here, because there's a lot

895
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: going on and and I was trying to do some

896
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: research into like how is it received at the time

897
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: versus now? And it's kind of all over the place.

898
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: So my view of this movie's treatment of mental health

899
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: has changed as well. But um, at the time and

900
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: sort of into the current day, that being now I'm sorry,

901
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I have to pee. Um, it's kind of

902
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: all over the place, and and it seems like that

903
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 1: is kind of intentionally done. So the symptoms that we

904
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: see Nina display are never explicitly named as any specific

905
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 1: mental health issue, which I usually feel is a good

906
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: thing because when you see a movie say this is

907
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: bipolar disorder, this is schizophrenia, like this is whatever, generally

908
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: what they portraying is not accurate and then like creates

909
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: a stigma against that condition that isn't even based in fact,

910
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: and usually like conflates it like with violent behavior or

911
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,399
Speaker 1: does something to demonize it. So that is one thing

912
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: that this movie conflates mental illness in a general sense

913
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: with violence, where like when Nina, like, the more Nina

914
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: descends into mental illness, the more violent we see her

915
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: become towards other people and or herself or does it

916
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: like we don't know violence towards something. It's like mental

917
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: illness and violence are treated kind of as one and

918
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: the same as it gets worse, but it's not treated

919
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 1: as one thing. Which is it? Which is positive? So

920
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: I was looking up, um, how have mental health organizations

921
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: treated this movie? And I found a couple of things. Um,

922
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: the first being from the Psychological Care and Healing Center,

923
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: and they said quote. While the movie does an excellent

924
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: job of portraying the terror related to psychosis, there is

925
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: a large amount of artistic license taken by the movie.

926
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: There are simply too many psychological issues going on with Nina.

927
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: She shows elements of an anxiety disorder with obsessive compulsive behaviors.

928
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: She also manifests self injurious behavior and some sides of

929
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: an eating disorder. She dabbles with substance of us, and

930
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: she has psychotic breaks, if not outright psychosis. A case

931
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: could also be made for a personality disorder. It is

932
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 1: highly unlikely that all of these elements could coexist in

933
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: one person, especially someone performing as a ballerina at such

934
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: a high level. So basically all of that to say, like,

935
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: the writers and directors of this movie are taking kind

936
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 1: of like a general sampler platter of mental illness and

937
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: taking appetizers as needed to serve the narrative, which I like,

938
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: which I mean, it's complicated, but as long as they

939
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: don't name, as long as they're not demonizing a specific

940
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: mental illness, I am more a to like understand why

941
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: they're doing it. And there's also been there were also,

942
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: like in two thousand Tents of people like why don't

943
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: we see Nina getting help? I'm like, that's a different movie.

944
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: That's just who's going to get Nina help in this movie?

945
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 1: Her support now Moronica, no right, everyone around her again

946
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: with the whole unreliable narrator thing, it's either people who

947
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: are gaslighting her or not or like, because I mean

948
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: with Lily is she is she emotionally manipulating her or

949
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: is she just trying to be a friend And we

950
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: don't know because I'm with Hunter there, I think she's

951
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: trying to be a friend. I think he's try friend,

952
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: but I think she's also like, you know, has her

953
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: own set of issues and it's like not really able.

954
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: But at the same time, that's all I think the

955
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: fact that this is so specifically limited to the ballet world,

956
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: and like we don't really get a chance to see

957
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: Nina outside of this context. It's like these are her

958
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 1: co workers. They don't really know what was on with

959
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: her outside of rehearsal. And I think that sort of

960
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: has an effect too, that this girl is like trying

961
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: to be this room, meaning Lily is like trying to

962
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: be her friend, like friendly, but not a close friend

963
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: to like really engage. She doesn't slip an ecstasy into

964
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: her drink. I was gonna say she's like kiss Sebashton

965
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: stand she or does she? Or who could say? We

966
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: don't know. It's all very unclear what goes on with

967
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: Nina and Lily, and that leads all the way up

968
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: to the queer bedding of a generation, which I was

969
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: very bated by. I was like, I was the worm

970
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: was there. I was like, how like I the bait

971
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: was there. I took the bait. Whoop. I was like, Yes,

972
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: this is the best thing that's ever happened. I remember,

973
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 1: like I that scene. You know. I feel like for

974
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 1: every generation there's a scene that you're like, oh, like

975
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: for a couple of years before us, mine was muhlland

976
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: drive anyone murmuring there there the first like when Mila

977
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: Kunas looks up from eating out Natalie Portman. We're like like,

978
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: it's just like it's very like and it still works

979
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: for me to this time, Like I know we're not

980
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: supposed to do this, but like, wow, it's very exciting. Um,

981
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: what were we thinking about queery queer baiting? Um, it

982
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: doesn't Okay, no, this is what we were saying. Okay. Uh.

983
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: The issue with with this scene is that we see

984
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: it and we're like, wow, wow, Wow, you know this

985
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: is I need to call my boyfriend and tell him

986
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: something that's going on with me. Um. But but the

987
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: issue is that this scene canonically does not happen that

988
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 1: we know, but like we're led to believe. I want

989
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: to believe it happens, but like doesn't like it seems

990
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: like it doesn't happen, and that's where the baiting if

991
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: word to believe Mila Kunas's character, it does not happen, right, right,

992
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: and she's the more reliable of the two characters, or

993
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: is she? You're right? I feel better. I was gonna say,

994
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: I think the movie itself, whenever Nina goes back to

995
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,439
Speaker 1: the apartment, we only see her talking to her mom,

996
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: and her mom doesn't even acknowledge that there's someone else there,

997
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: and the Lily character like like walks in and then hides,

998
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: like goes into INA's room. You know, I think that's

999
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: just like for the evidence that Lily is right. Yeah,

1000
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like they kind of do a

1001
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: little checking on you. They're like, oh, Bruce Willis never

1002
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: does talk directly to anybody, does he? Like? Yeah, like

1003
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: Lily never directly speaks to I mean, I guess we

1004
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,919
Speaker 1: don't know why Nina's mom went to the door. Maybe

1005
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: it was like a postmate. No, She's like, where have

1006
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: you been? You have a thing tomorrow? Oh, I think

1007
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: that seems that that moment she Lily does show up, yes,

1008
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: but when when she comes in, But when she comes

1009
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: like she's not actually where and she's like she's not, like,

1010
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: who's this other lady. She doesn't say that because Lily,

1011
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: I guess, is not there is not that I'm sorry, No,

1012
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: don't apologize. I just I like that scene very clearly

1013
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: is batty and not Cannon. But I wanted to be Cannon.

1014
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: So there is I hit my tooth and the mic

1015
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: I um yeah. So so that like that whole scene

1016
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 1: is very kind of bizarre in the way that I

1017
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: feel like it's just one of those moments of like

1018
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: Aeronofski is trying to have it always of like he

1019
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: wants to have the trailer moment of Natalie Portman and

1020
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: Mila Kunas are kissing. You're gonna want to see this movie.

1021
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,920
Speaker 1: It's gonna make a lot of money, you know, and

1022
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: like don't think too hard about the themes, like give

1023
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: me eleven dollars, like and in that way, I think

1024
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: it succeeded because that's what got me there. And but

1025
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: but I mean those sort of baiting scenes are are

1026
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 1: rooted in in history of scenes that depict queerness but

1027
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: then are later majorly backpedaled on of like well that

1028
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: didn't actually happen, or like some other way of negating

1029
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,800
Speaker 1: the actual scene that was heavily marketed as a big

1030
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 1: part of the movie. So that's a bummer. There's also

1031
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: that quick moment where Lily when they're at the club

1032
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: with Sebastian Stan and some other guy, she's like, Hey,

1033
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: these guys are gay lovers and they're like what and

1034
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 1: they kind of breeze past it. So at least you

1035
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,439
Speaker 1: don't have like these straight guys being like, oh, we're

1036
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: not gay. But that's just But that's just because we're

1037
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: led to believe that Natalie apartment is screaming in this

1038
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: bar like to everybody and then like, Hi, kiss me,

1039
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: kiss me, you're gay? Kiss me? Like like she's just

1040
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: like all over. I don't know what's supposed to be happening.

1041
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,439
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, can we talk about that scene? Oh?

1042
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: And then the other like then what happens is, Um,

1043
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: Sebastian stands says, oh, I've never been to the ballet

1044
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: and then Lily goes, well, then you're definitely not gay,

1045
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: and it's like, why is the scene in the movie. Um,

1046
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: can we talk about the like the predatory relationship between

1047
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: Toma and Nina, because this is another part of the

1048
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: movie that I really struggle with because on one hand,

1049
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 1: it's depicting a predatory situation where you know, he has

1050
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: the power, he's making, he's calling the shots. He is

1051
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: who determines who gets certain roles, and she is kind

1052
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 1: of like powerless to she has to kind of succumb

1053
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: to his authority and power and he manipulates her based

1054
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 1: on this power dynamic or this power and balance. But

1055
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 1: what what I don't like to see necessarily, even though

1056
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 1: it might be realistic, is that she is punished at

1057
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: the end and he is not. She is punished because

1058
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 1: she is dead and he and that. Again, it might

1059
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: be a realistic depiction of how these predatory relationships often go,

1060
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: but it's just another reason this movie really bums me out.

1061
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 1: But I think it's I think that, like, misogyny is

1062
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 1: a bummer, men, abusing power is for sure a bummer.

1063
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: But it happened. Why we're sitting here, you know, Like

1064
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 1: I I just I don't know. I feel I agree

1065
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: with you, and I like, I don't think that there's

1066
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: really an empowering message to take away from this movie.

1067
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: But I also don't think that that's what it's trying

1068
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 1: to do. I feel like it's more trying to demonstrate

1069
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 1: if you fold to every pressure being forced on you

1070
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: by whatever system you're existing in, it will crush you.

1071
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: And and so then you have to leave the theater

1072
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 1: being like, well, what are my other options? You know?

1073
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 1: Like I just I felt like and and and some

1074
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: of the criticism I was reading that was like kind

1075
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: of when it was coming out ten years ago, was

1076
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 1: that it was weirdly revolutionary in to see a man

1077
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 1: that you knew abusing you. That was like in your

1078
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: workplace where so often and I feel like, um, something

1079
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: that came out around the same time as like Girl

1080
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: with the Dragon Tattoo, I think came out a year later,

1081
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 1: where you see a very clear sexual predator who's a

1082
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: total stranger. And I feel like that is mostly the

1083
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: way the predators are portrayed in fiction is like, a

1084
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: sexual predator is someone you don't know. A sexual predator

1085
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: someone who sneaks up on you and like you, you

1086
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:14,840
Speaker 1: won't there's no way to prepare for it, there's no

1087
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: way to recognize it in the world that you live in.

1088
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: And black Swan very clearly places it like this is

1089
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 1: a person she knows, This is a person who has

1090
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 1: a clear motive for like weaponizing his power against her.

1091
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: And it's not comfortable to see, but it is realistic,

1092
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 1: like and and and I feel like, you know, you

1093
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 1: see it dealt with by a number of different women.

1094
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: You see that Nina is not fully prepared on how

1095
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: to deal with it because he is the patriarch in

1096
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:47,719
Speaker 1: this situation and she, as far as we know, doesn't

1097
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 1: have any other relationships to compare it with. We see

1098
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: that Lily sees it and has seen it before, and

1099
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 1: it's like, this is bullshit. I'm not gonna deal with

1100
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: this beyond what I have to. And I don't know,

1101
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's an uncomfortable portrayal, but it

1102
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: feels like realistic, if a little melodramatic at moments, to

1103
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 1: like things that exist. And I appreciate it on that level, sure,

1104
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, as much as it's like demonstrating like

1105
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: the societal pressures that are happening here, like with misogyny,

1106
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: I think it's also Nina has been raised in this

1107
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 1: culture that makes her want to please him and want

1108
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: to bend herself and fit to to fit his idea

1109
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: that oh, the black Swan needs to be like black

1110
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 1: and white want need to be one person. It's like, no,

1111
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 1: they don't though, like this is just what he has decided,

1112
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 1: and so she is like working her very hardest to

1113
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: meet that you know made up expectation um. And also

1114
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: something that I was reading just today was that at

1115
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 1: the time it came out, Bencey Cassel was asked like,

1116
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: do you think that he's like trying to get late?

1117
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: And even though they we're talking that, we're talking about

1118
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: this character now, the way it has evolved in the

1119
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 1: ten years since the movie came out is so like

1120
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 1: a star honeshing, like we are able to think about Okay, well,

1121
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 1: he is obviously in power. She lives in this kind

1122
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: of culture like we live in society, but she lives

1123
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 1: in the core. Um. But he was asked like, oh,

1124
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 1: do you think that like he's like trying to get

1125
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 1: laid or what do you think it is? And he's like, no,

1126
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 1: I think it's like more of like an artistic calculus

1127
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: on his part. He doesn't really care about her. He

1128
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 1: just like wants this happened right. But I think it

1129
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:29,799
Speaker 1: is like such a warped idea of art and artists

1130
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: and also power that we can see much more clearly

1131
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: now then obviously when this movie came out. That's something

1132
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 1: that I came up against. Also in the way that

1133
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 1: Aronofsky was giving interviews around this time too, of it

1134
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 1: seems like, at least at this time, and we don't

1135
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 1: know how he feels in the age of Mother, Like,

1136
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:51,520
Speaker 1: we don't know how he how he's evolved, how his scarves,

1137
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: the colors have maybe changed, We don't know. Um. You know,

1138
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: Jennifer Lawrence married a man named Cook Maroney. You know,

1139
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 1: anything could happen in this world. A lot of Cook

1140
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:06,960
Speaker 1: Moroney heads. Fine, Um, but he's at the show. We

1141
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 1: invite Cook Morone to the show. Um, but no. The

1142
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: way that um Aronofsky talked about it at the time

1143
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:17,080
Speaker 1: was very much like it almost felt like his thesis

1144
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: in some way. It was criticism something with things we've

1145
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,680
Speaker 1: been talking about, but it was also that by his

1146
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 1: vision that you couldn't have art without some sort of

1147
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:32,520
Speaker 1: mental you know, like something happening, like a mental compromise. Yeah, exactly,

1148
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: like you can't have great art without a mental compromise.

1149
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,960
Speaker 1: And that was sort of the way he was giving

1150
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 1: interviews at this time, and something like there there were

1151
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: there's a really good essay that came out about this

1152
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 1: from h Lessons from the screenplay that I really love

1153
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 1: and I've been. It came out a couple of years ago.

1154
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: But that kind of compares the Black Swan narrative directly

1155
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: against whip Lash, which came out, Yeah, which came out

1156
01:11:57,040 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 1: a couple of years after. I think that compares on

1157
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 1: a gender basis, Like both of these movies are about

1158
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: a quest by a protagonist for artistic greatness, and in

1159
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 1: both of these movies there is a male mentor who

1160
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 1: is torturing the protagonist to become great, and the way

1161
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 1: it plays out in both movies, for better or Worse,

1162
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 1: is very different. And I feel like that the thing

1163
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 1: that Black Swan succeeds in is portraying this male mentor

1164
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: as like a bad and toxic influence of like he

1165
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,759
Speaker 1: is torturing them, he is abusing them. It's very clear

1166
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,840
Speaker 1: what he's doing, and it results in great art but

1167
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: like great personal sacrifice were in Whiplash if you've seen it,

1168
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:46,640
Speaker 1: which is like, I mean, whatever, uh do you? I

1169
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 1: don't care about Miles teller Um. You know, he bothers

1170
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:55,559
Speaker 1: me and to look at I don't like looking at

1171
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,960
Speaker 1: Miles Teller. Uh. He and then if you read an interview,

1172
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm just a binde. Uh. He's an annoying person.

1173
01:13:03,439 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 1: But the but in Whiplash he plays a jazz drummer.

1174
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: He's trying to become great. Um, and I was gonna

1175
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: say j J. Abrams, but I mean the other guy.

1176
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 1: Uh uh what's his name? Oh my god, j K Simmons. Yes,

1177
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 1: Jack Simmons, r JJ Abrams. I won't be able to

1178
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: come up with it. J K. Simmons is screaming at

1179
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 1: him the whole movie. But the climaxes of the movies

1180
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:34,240
Speaker 1: are very different. Where Natalie Portman's character achieves greatness and

1181
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:39,560
Speaker 1: dies because the you know, because of all the expectations

1182
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 1: that are very gendered being placed upon her, and then

1183
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:45,519
Speaker 1: in the other case, um, you end up kind of

1184
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:49,519
Speaker 1: receiving the j K. Simmons character is, well, yeah, he

1185
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 1: threw ship at this person. He was violently abusive towards

1186
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: this person, but it resulted in this great performance and

1187
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: he lived. So they're probably friends today. And so the

1188
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 1: man gets to live but also has the legacy of

1189
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 1: this toxic influence, whereas the woman realizes what the toxic

1190
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 1: influence was but she dies and so there's like, I

1191
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 1: don't I don't know, I don't know. I like Black Swan,

1192
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 1: I mean another part of it. And I think this

1193
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,400
Speaker 1: just has to do with like the very complicated nature

1194
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 1: of being the victim of a predator, which is you like,

1195
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 1: you see that scene. So she gets assaulted many times

1196
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,200
Speaker 1: in this movie by him. There's the one scene in

1197
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 1: particular where he's like, you're no one wants to fuck you.

1198
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 1: Let me teach you how to seduce. And then there's

1199
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 1: this really uncomfortable moment where you know he's forcing himself

1200
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: on her, he's groping her. She is not really resisting

1201
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:56,400
Speaker 1: and it and it probably is because she's really confused

1202
01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: and uncomfortable and she doesn't know how to respond and uh,

1203
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,280
Speaker 1: and he's the only person who has the power over

1204
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:07,640
Speaker 1: what her dream is, right, and then the aftermath of

1205
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,720
Speaker 1: that is that and this is a little unclear, but

1206
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 1: the narrative frames as though she she likes him because

1207
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 1: she's defending him in front of Lily because she's like, oh,

1208
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 1: you're hot for teacher, and she's like, you don't know him.

1209
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:25,639
Speaker 1: And again, that's just maybe part of the complicated nature

1210
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 1: of that, you know, dynamic. But I can't help but

1211
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 1: think of Mother Wait, and we're in that movie which

1212
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:37,400
Speaker 1: we covered it. Go back and listen to the episode

1213
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 1: if you want. But um, there's a moment in that

1214
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 1: movie where it starts out a sexual assault and then

1215
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:49,080
Speaker 1: becomes a consensual sex scene. And I can't help but

1216
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:54,240
Speaker 1: to wonder if, because they're both Aronofsky movies, if he

1217
01:15:54,800 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: thinks that might be how sex goes sometimes. I I mean,

1218
01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 1: what I can say for sure what Aronowski is that

1219
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: he thinks of scarf keeps his head on his body.

1220
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 1: That's all I could say for a hundred percent. It's

1221
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,040
Speaker 1: like that what was that scary stories of telling the

1222
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: dark story that if he took a scarf off, his

1223
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 1: head would fall off. He for sure percent believes that

1224
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:25,600
Speaker 1: we have no reason to believe. He hasn't believed that,

1225
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: there's been no canonical reason to believe that. He doesn't

1226
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:32,519
Speaker 1: think that. Um, so I don't. It's it's a it's

1227
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: a very complicated and I think that because this movie

1228
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:39,799
Speaker 1: is directed by a man who doesn't necessarily have the

1229
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: best track record for certain things, and then written by

1230
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 1: several minutes. I don't know, I just can't trust I

1231
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 1: just I disagree on the grounds that we know that

1232
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: this is Nina's first experience with a romantic relationship at all,

1233
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:00,839
Speaker 1: and just based on I mean on my first romantic

1234
01:17:00,920 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: experience and and possibly other people's I don't know, but

1235
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: like the first time, you you know, like assume the

1236
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,800
Speaker 1: best of someone, You're gonna make a lot of mistakes,

1237
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,040
Speaker 1: And Nina is doing this at a much later age

1238
01:17:15,160 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: twenty um then then a lot of other people do.

1239
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 1: But I feel like I I thought that her willingness

1240
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 1: to forgive him was both a reflection of like, he

1241
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 1: is the gatekeeper to my dreams, but also that the

1242
01:17:30,960 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 1: fact that she's been so protected and she's been so

1243
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: naive and she doesn't have compare like anything to compare

1244
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 1: it to. Then her mom tucks her into bed at night,

1245
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:42,640
Speaker 1: like she has no understanding of how a human like

1246
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:46,640
Speaker 1: how a real adult relationship of any kind, from relationship

1247
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 1: that's romantic or platonic should or would look. I think,

1248
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 1: Prince yeah, and she. I think that that's what the

1249
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 1: swan like metaphor becomes. Like more meta to the story

1250
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,320
Speaker 1: is that she really does cast herself as like in

1251
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:01,599
Speaker 1: like such a ide actic way, and that is ultimately

1252
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:08,600
Speaker 1: what is her own doing someone? I love it. I

1253
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:15,839
Speaker 1: love it. The point is this movie is great. Um,

1254
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: we were running out of time. Do we have a

1255
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 1: single moment for audience feedback? Yeah, a little tiny bit.

1256
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 1: Let's say too, oh, oh my gosh, oh my god.

1257
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 1: We've got a mike. If you have question or comment,

1258
01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: umase make it as quick as possible as we only

1259
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: have time for Like, she's here, Hello, what's your name? Yes,

1260
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 1: Kristen christ Christen Hi. Um. First off, I just want

1261
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:48,200
Speaker 1: to say that Alfred Molina would have made a much

1262
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:52,840
Speaker 1: better toma. Yes where I agree? Yes, maybe, like that's

1263
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: why she likes right, And I just wanted to comment

1264
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:58,880
Speaker 1: real quick, to go back to um Nina's voice real quick,

1265
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:02,599
Speaker 1: UM for a little context corner. UM. I read somewhere

1266
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:06,840
Speaker 1: that apparently Natalie Portman, when she was starting out or

1267
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 1: um was getting um, you know, like acting lessons and stuff,

1268
01:19:10,439 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: she had been told that her voice sounded like two

1269
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 1: girls for babies and she had to kind of do

1270
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,439
Speaker 1: vocal exercises to make it sound more like adult and

1271
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:19,680
Speaker 1: more woman like. But apparently for this film she was

1272
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 1: sold to kind of like throw that at the door

1273
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: and then you know, it's very funny the way you

1274
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:25,759
Speaker 1: hear her read certain lines like if the other girl

1275
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: had barged in, or just like a little like line

1276
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: reads like that. That just felt like that is not

1277
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:33,360
Speaker 1: the way a grown ass woman like that speaks to

1278
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:36,480
Speaker 1: her mother or like talks about other women, you know, supposedly,

1279
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:38,840
Speaker 1: but I just want to mention that real quick and

1280
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 1: the very nice subtle thing that she does with her

1281
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 1: performance just to sound like there's just a little girl

1282
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: or like, you know, this is like not a normal woman.

1283
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,920
Speaker 1: I always wanted to mention that just they're definitely like

1284
01:19:51,160 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 1: certain acting choices and certain like wardrobe choices that help,

1285
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: you know, enhance the theme of the movie. And I

1286
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: only one for her best, her best actress, Oscar for

1287
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: that she was great, definitely. I also read according to Wikipedia,

1288
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:09,679
Speaker 1: both Natalie Portman and Mela Kunas had to work out

1289
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:14,960
Speaker 1: five hours a day in preparation for this role. Ton

1290
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:19,720
Speaker 1: of weight. Scary. Let's not talk about it, but thank

1291
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 1: you so much. Yeah, thank you for saying hi. Hello,

1292
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:30,479
Speaker 1: what's your name? My name is Sam hi Um, longtime listener,

1293
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 1: first time callers. So my my question to you is

1294
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 1: like does it pass like the reverse spectal test, which

1295
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:41,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it does at all, because I mean,

1296
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 1: I think it's barely any there's like, I mean, it's

1297
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: a very female driven story with only one main male character.

1298
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 1: The rest are pretty ancillary. But it definitely passes the

1299
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:55,840
Speaker 1: backtel taste for sure. We haven't gotten there. Yeah, yeah,

1300
01:20:55,880 --> 01:20:59,559
Speaker 1: it passes between several different combinations of characters. But yeah,

1301
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,920
Speaker 1: I don't think men don't speak to each other in

1302
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:09,960
Speaker 1: this movie. I don't think so that's a wind that's text,

1303
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: feminist text. He's like, I don't think I can't think

1304
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,799
Speaker 1: of any movie that does do that, right, We've encountered

1305
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,880
Speaker 1: a few, but they are they are so rare, so

1306
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:24,519
Speaker 1: very rare, too rare, some would say. Yeah. And the

1307
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 1: things that they're mostly talking about, our female ambition, their

1308
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 1: relationships with each other, like their relationship to reality, a

1309
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:36,599
Speaker 1: genderless concept. Um, you know, there's a lot of things

1310
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: that women are talking about. Ballet also a cake. Okay, cake,

1311
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,760
Speaker 1: I'll throw it away if you don't want it, right.

1312
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I think Elena should have

1313
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: been the cake. I love it. With his octo hands

1314
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: coming out should have been the cake. Great, thank you

1315
01:21:56,439 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 1: so much, point, thank you so much. So yes, how Hi,

1316
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: my name is Petra, huge fan of the pod. Um So,

1317
01:22:04,280 --> 01:22:05,560
Speaker 1: I kind of want to just start the pot a

1318
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 1: little bit between Jamie and Caitlin and um bring it

1319
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:13,200
Speaker 1: back to the conversation about the sexual predatory behavior that

1320
01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 1: was going on in the movie. Um So, I watched

1321
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:17,120
Speaker 1: this last night and just thinking about it in the

1322
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:20,439
Speaker 1: context of the Harvey Weinstein trials, I kind of was

1323
01:22:20,479 --> 01:22:25,400
Speaker 1: able to see this this dynamic between Nina and Toma,

1324
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:28,240
Speaker 1: and it seemed like Darren Aronoski was trying to have

1325
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 1: her flip the situation on its head and like kind

1326
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 1: of kind of take control of it. Um. And I

1327
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:35,640
Speaker 1: was just kind of wondering what you guys thought and

1328
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 1: the way that you know, those predatory relationships are seen

1329
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 1: in modern day. I think that, I mean, that's a

1330
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: that's a great question. Um, I can't wait to argue

1331
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 1: about it. I mean I think that, like, there there's

1332
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 1: a lot it maybe doesn't go as far as it

1333
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 1: should in two ten maybe, but I like in reading

1334
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 1: the backlog of criticism him about this, there are a

1335
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 1: lot of people who compared the Thomas character to a

1336
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 1: Roman Polanski type character. Of like, here is a man

1337
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 1: who creates great art depending on how you feel, aren't,

1338
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,080
Speaker 1: But like, here's a man who creates well regarded art,

1339
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:18,280
Speaker 1: who in the creation of this art, women are brutalized

1340
01:23:18,280 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 1: and punished. Right, And many considered Ronowski at the time

1341
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 1: to be making some sort of comments on this, of

1342
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: like asking that question, like is this art that this

1343
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:34,040
Speaker 1: abusive man creates worth the consequence? And then clearly no,

1344
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 1: of course, I mean we know that, did us seriously

1345
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 1: a man just say no, there, okay, okay, but like

1346
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 1: we get it. We know we've been here for four years. Um,

1347
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:55,600
Speaker 1: thank you though, thank you for telling us no Jesus Christ. Okay,

1348
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:59,280
Speaker 1: my rhetorical question was answered by a man as usual.

1349
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:08,559
Speaker 1: I can't fucking believe this. Um. I yeah, so I'm sorry.

1350
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,720
Speaker 1: I'm just like bringing my blood pressure down. Caitlin took

1351
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:15,560
Speaker 1: my wine bottle away. Um. All that to say, I

1352
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 1: I yeah, like they're that conversation is brought up like it.

1353
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:21,920
Speaker 1: I feel like it asks the audience that question and

1354
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:26,479
Speaker 1: then gets us it very involved with the consequence of

1355
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:31,120
Speaker 1: his great art that you know, kills its main character,

1356
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 1: who's a character we love and very much are on

1357
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:37,000
Speaker 1: the side of so I don't know, I think, for

1358
01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 1: especially given the fact that it was ten years ago

1359
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,679
Speaker 1: when no one was talking about this really at all.

1360
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:45,960
Speaker 1: It's doing a lot more than was asked of your

1361
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:48,720
Speaker 1: average movie at that time. So I'll give him that,

1362
01:24:49,880 --> 01:24:56,120
Speaker 1: and I don't want to argue, so I agree. I went,

1363
01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 1: thank you. Hi. What's your name? My name is Elisha. Hello. Okay,

1364
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,879
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna preface by saying that I am twenty

1365
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:16,599
Speaker 1: actually ahead of you. Thanks. And I do not look

1366
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:20,320
Speaker 1: anything like now the Importman. But then again, she is

1367
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 1: a ballerina living in the Upper What Side, and I'm

1368
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 1: wearing the glasses of a seventy year old librarian and

1369
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 1: I live in Nork, soa there's a bit of a

1370
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:35,120
Speaker 1: difference there. And I wanted to make a comment about

1371
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: how people like Aeronowski, especially people I have a whole

1372
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 1: thing about all tours. We're not going to get into it,

1373
01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: but you hear a lot that artist suffering, and to

1374
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 1: make good art you have to suffer. What mother is about.

1375
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 1: And so now the Importman, she cannot be successful, or

1376
01:25:57,200 --> 01:26:02,360
Speaker 1: she cannot be exceptional without so ring and being at

1377
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:06,560
Speaker 1: odds with every woman in her surrounding because but just

1378
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:13,080
Speaker 1: be fighting and until she writes horror across the mirror.

1379
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: And then once she does that, like once she's just

1380
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:19,599
Speaker 1: like a little bit like exceptional and she's a little

1381
01:26:19,600 --> 01:26:24,599
Speaker 1: bit above everyone else. She dies. She dies, and I

1382
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:28,880
Speaker 1: find that super offensive and super annoying. It's like, great,

1383
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 1: she like turls around for like two seconds and then

1384
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:35,680
Speaker 1: she's dead. What the heck? But yeah, that's my car.

1385
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we make art and we're thriving. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1386
01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 1: I I don't know. But then it's like if you

1387
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,479
Speaker 1: take that, if you take the scarf off our boss,

1388
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:54,720
Speaker 1: his head falls off site. I guess kind of complicated,

1389
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:56,280
Speaker 1: but that is that that is a really good point

1390
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,680
Speaker 1: of just like yeah, like the the world at this

1391
01:26:59,720 --> 01:27:04,200
Speaker 1: story doesn't afford her, you know, the ability to live. Well.

1392
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,439
Speaker 1: I mean there's so many movies about like how being

1393
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:11,479
Speaker 1: a woman is horror and scary. I mean disagree, but

1394
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, but that's why. And I do see

1395
01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:18,599
Speaker 1: the value in this movie. But I just I do

1396
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:23,720
Speaker 1: wish there were more empowering stories that were just more

1397
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 1: about like, you know, women, someone Louise, they drive off

1398
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,240
Speaker 1: a cliff at the end because there's no they die

1399
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 1: in a different women are at the end, I mean

1400
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: speaking of Roman Plansky fucking Rosemary's baby like she like

1401
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 1: she has to have a devil baby, like women are

1402
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:46,520
Speaker 1: always being punished and again like that's part of reality.

1403
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 1: But what also, we're fucking strong and we can rise

1404
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:56,840
Speaker 1: up and not die. So that was my retort to

1405
01:27:56,880 --> 01:28:01,839
Speaker 1: the earlier argument. There's movies that I just I like, yeah, whatever,

1406
01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. The more I think about it, the

1407
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,720
Speaker 1: more I think that Nina her idea of perfection is

1408
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: like a masculine idea of perfection. It's Thomas's idea. And

1409
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:11,760
Speaker 1: so at the end when she's like, I did it,

1410
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 1: I was perfect, she's meeting his standard of perfection, not

1411
01:28:14,479 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 1: necessarily her own, and that's why she dies. Hunter Harris,

1412
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 1: thank you, we do. We're we're getting We've been getting

1413
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,920
Speaker 1: the light for ten minutes, so I'm sorry. We will

1414
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: talk to you after it. We just have to really

1415
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:32,759
Speaker 1: quickly rate this movie on our nipple scale. It passes

1416
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:36,240
Speaker 1: the Beetel test spoiler alert obviously, Um, but let's rate

1417
01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 1: it on our nipple scale UH scale of one to

1418
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 1: five nipples based on the movie's treatment of women. Um,

1419
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:43,800
Speaker 1: what do you give it? I don't want to go first.

1420
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm scared. Why no, you go first. I haven't thought

1421
01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:50,760
Speaker 1: about that. I don't I don't know. I'm gonna I'm

1422
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 1: gonna say Okay, so I'm gonna say I'm gonna say

1423
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:58,599
Speaker 1: three and a half um, And someone went, oh, I'm

1424
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 1: gonna say three and a half. I think that this

1425
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 1: is a very brutal depiction of womanhood. But it's a

1426
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 1: depiction of womanhood that I at the time and unfortunately

1427
01:29:07,760 --> 01:29:11,559
Speaker 1: still pretty closely connected to. And I know that it

1428
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 1: is not I mean, you remove it because of the

1429
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:17,240
Speaker 1: fact that it offers no real victory, Like Hunter was

1430
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:21,320
Speaker 1: just saying, it's about woman's pursuit of a male's idea

1431
01:29:21,479 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 1: of female perfection. But I think that it's not an

1432
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:28,000
Speaker 1: unrelatable narrative, even if it's like heightened to an eleven

1433
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 1: um and there are the drawbacks that we have discussed,

1434
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 1: but I think it's like a very upsetting, frustrating look

1435
01:29:36,080 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: at you know, a woman who has never been asked

1436
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:41,719
Speaker 1: to do anything but try to meet a male ideal,

1437
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,040
Speaker 1: and how that has brutally punished her and caused her

1438
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 1: own downfall and total neglect of herself and it's not

1439
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 1: fun to watch, but I do think that it is

1440
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:52,680
Speaker 1: like an important thing to examine and look at. So

1441
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:55,799
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give it three and a half nipples, giving

1442
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:57,720
Speaker 1: all three and a half to Alfred Molina, who had

1443
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 1: nothing to do with it. Can I give nipples to Yes,

1444
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 1: of course, I'm going to say everything you said, but

1445
01:30:07,840 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it an extra half nipples. So

1446
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 1: for nipples for the Clintmonzel Traikowsky score, which is says

1447
01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 1: that earns another half nipple for me. Um, I'll give

1448
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:27,320
Speaker 1: it a three. Oh, someone validated me, should I go lower?

1449
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: Stop it? Stop it? Caitlin never makes up her actual

1450
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:36,640
Speaker 1: mind and the live shows I am very for that.

1451
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:39,200
Speaker 1: In the studio, I kind of want to give it

1452
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:46,760
Speaker 1: a two and a half. Honestly, a go ahead. I

1453
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:51,080
Speaker 1: have no attachment to this movie whatsoever, So I have

1454
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:57,559
Speaker 1: been examining it through just like my lens of And

1455
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 1: while it is a female driven store worry, it's just

1456
01:31:00,800 --> 01:31:05,960
Speaker 1: there's so much focus on antagonistic relationships between women and

1457
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:10,879
Speaker 1: a predatory situation that I don't think is necessarily handled

1458
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 1: that responsibly, and some other stuff. But I do also

1459
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: see the value in it, you know, there's everything that

1460
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:24,559
Speaker 1: you said, but minus a nipple. Um, and I'll give

1461
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 1: my nipples to Paddington gets in a jam. So we

1462
01:31:32,120 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 1: gotta wrap up. We've got to get out of here.

1463
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:40,639
Speaker 1: Thank you so much on your Harris. Uh, where can

1464
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:42,719
Speaker 1: we find you online? Where can we find your work?

1465
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm at Hunter, I just forgot my fucking name. Um,

1466
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:52,120
Speaker 1: I'm Hunter? Why Harris on Twitter? Oh my gosh, thank

1467
01:31:52,160 --> 01:31:53,800
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you to the Bellhouse, thank you

1468
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:57,000
Speaker 1: to the Brooklyn Podcast Special, thank you to all of you.

1469
01:31:56,640 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 1: Thank you. And that is our live show at the

1470
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 1: Bellhouse in Brooklyn. Uh. We before we go into all

1471
01:32:05,840 --> 01:32:08,800
Speaker 1: our normal plugs, we actually have a few things that

1472
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:10,439
Speaker 1: we didn't have time for in the show. They were

1473
01:32:10,479 --> 01:32:13,719
Speaker 1: literally kicking us out of the venue. Fair. The show

1474
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:16,439
Speaker 1: was long. Um, so there. But there are a few

1475
01:32:16,520 --> 01:32:19,599
Speaker 1: more things to talk about with this movie, so uh

1476
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:25,400
Speaker 1: really quickly. Um. One thing that I thought was interesting,

1477
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:27,759
Speaker 1: like an interesting discussion that you don't really see brought

1478
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: up in film discussions very much, is uh, the role

1479
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:35,439
Speaker 1: of the dancer in a dance movie like this because

1480
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman, you know, obviously or maybe not obviously, didn't

1481
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 1: do all of a ballet dancing in this movie, she

1482
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:44,280
Speaker 1: did a lot. It wasn't that she I mean, she trained,

1483
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,600
Speaker 1: she like did her due diligence. But she had a

1484
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 1: dance double named Sarah Lane, who was an soloist at

1485
01:32:52,520 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 1: the American Ballet Theater, one of the biggest, most fanciest

1486
01:32:55,880 --> 01:32:58,479
Speaker 1: ones of them all, who did kind of the heavy lifting.

1487
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 1: But there was a little controversy around that because she

1488
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 1: wasn't really credited accordingly for the amount of work that

1489
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:08,800
Speaker 1: she did. Right. She also said that, um, most of

1490
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:14,360
Speaker 1: Natalie's dancing on screen is actually her with Natalie Portman's

1491
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 1: face like digitally grafted onto hers, which is another thing

1492
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:20,800
Speaker 1: that happens in one of my favorite movies, my favor

1493
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 1: actual favorite movie, Titania. All right, Yes, I was just

1494
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:27,599
Speaker 1: thinking about that. Um. And then the production team of

1495
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:31,599
Speaker 1: Black Swan responded to this by saying that the footage

1496
01:33:31,640 --> 01:33:33,639
Speaker 1: that was used in the final cut of the movie

1497
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 1: was mostly Natalie dancing, and that Sarah Lane was only

1498
01:33:38,120 --> 01:33:42,320
Speaker 1: used in a few wide shots. Sarah Lane disagrees. She

1499
01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:44,680
Speaker 1: says that, you know, the production team told her to

1500
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 1: keep quiet in an effort to make it seem like

1501
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: Natalie Portman had done more dancing than she actually did,

1502
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: so you know, it's worth it was just worth mentioning that,

1503
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:57,679
Speaker 1: you know, a woman who put in a lot of

1504
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, hard work into this film was kind of silenced.

1505
01:34:01,479 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 1: And it's I mean, it's super frustrating and kind of

1506
01:34:04,200 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: like typical too that something like this would happen. Of

1507
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:10,240
Speaker 1: like you almost get the feeling that this is like

1508
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:13,719
Speaker 1: an effort to be like, oh well, if we credit

1509
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:16,800
Speaker 1: the Stancer the way that we're supposed to, like, we

1510
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: lose a little bullet point on like Nataliepportman's Oscar submission

1511
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: or something like that. And it's a little frustrating on

1512
01:34:24,680 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 1: the Natali Apportman's side too, of someone who generally tends

1513
01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:30,479
Speaker 1: to be on the right side of things being at

1514
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 1: least complicit in uh in a situation like this. So

1515
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 1: for the record, we're teams Sarah Lane And also you

1516
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:42,760
Speaker 1: can kind of clearly see that it's now like they're

1517
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: kind of deep faking it a little bit like a

1518
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:50,839
Speaker 1: social network Winkleboss style, so like, also, don't underestimate your viewers.

1519
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:54,000
Speaker 1: We also see it. Um So there's I mean, but

1520
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:58,120
Speaker 1: there's that's not the only controversy attributed to this production.

1521
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 1: The next one is so the film Perfect Blue, which

1522
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:06,920
Speaker 1: is an anime film directed by Satoshi Khan. Yes, many

1523
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 1: people have noticed similarities between that film and Black Swan. Um. So,

1524
01:35:13,360 --> 01:35:17,679
Speaker 1: from my understanding, Darren Aronofsky purchased the American film rights

1525
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:21,720
Speaker 1: to Perfect Blue so that he could use the bathtub

1526
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 1: scene from Perfect Blue in another of his films, Requiem

1527
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:27,960
Speaker 1: for a Dream, And if you see that side by

1528
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: side comparison, you will see that those two scenes are

1529
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:36,760
Speaker 1: virtually identical. So now people speculate that because he owns

1530
01:35:36,800 --> 01:35:41,240
Speaker 1: the American rights to Perfect Blue, that Aaronovsky might have

1531
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 1: borrowed some stuff from it for Black Swan. Well, So

1532
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,840
Speaker 1: the frustrating thing there, I mean, it's like the connections

1533
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 1: between Aeronovsky and the movie are so so well documented

1534
01:35:52,280 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 1: that he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Really

1535
01:35:55,320 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 1: it's not. I mean, there is sometimes overlap in ideas,

1536
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 1: but this is like he literally purchased the home rights.

1537
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:03,479
Speaker 1: There's no question that this is what it is. But

1538
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:10,080
Speaker 1: I found um an interview that um Satoshi Khan's producer,

1539
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:14,040
Speaker 1: Missau Mariu Yama did with Days a couple of years

1540
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 1: ago in that just further confirms this. Where Um He

1541
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:24,400
Speaker 1: says that Aronofsky and Con actually had met up, they

1542
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:27,000
Speaker 1: had discussed this. It seemed like they were both very

1543
01:36:27,080 --> 01:36:32,240
Speaker 1: enthusiastic about Aronowsky possibly just adapting the anime to the screen,

1544
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:38,080
Speaker 1: and the quote is quote I met with Aronofsky alongside Con,

1545
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:41,240
Speaker 1: said Mariyama. It wouldn't have been a problem with an adaptation.

1546
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:43,280
Speaker 1: We thought that a director of that status could have

1547
01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 1: adapted the film and done it in his own way,

1548
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 1: and that would have been fine. But I think that

1549
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 1: Aronofsky's Black Swan, including the similarities it has to Perfect Blue,

1550
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:56,719
Speaker 1: is a very interesting film. So diplomatic answer from that camp,

1551
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 1: very classy, but it's like, yeah, he he totally ripped it,

1552
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:06,519
Speaker 1: which is so, you know, for a you know, white

1553
01:37:06,680 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: male known for being arrogrant a tour stealing from a

1554
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:18,080
Speaker 1: famous cult anime film director, that is an exceptionally bad look. Right.

1555
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:21,719
Speaker 1: We saw the same thing with The Lion King and

1556
01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Um Kimba the White Lion. Right. Yeah, it's just like

1557
01:37:25,439 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 1: American productions totally erasing um the fact that they're stealing

1558
01:37:29,640 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 1: from Japanese careers. And I went and watched Perfect Blue?

1559
01:37:35,040 --> 01:37:36,640
Speaker 1: Did you like it? Just to check it out? I

1560
01:37:36,640 --> 01:37:39,479
Speaker 1: did like it and believe it or not, there are

1561
01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:44,439
Speaker 1: quite a few similarities in terms of so the story

1562
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:47,840
Speaker 1: is that Um, a young pop star, decides to make

1563
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:51,400
Speaker 1: a bit of a career shift and turns to dramatic

1564
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:54,679
Speaker 1: acting instead. So she leaves this pop group that she's

1565
01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 1: in to become an actor. But she because she kind

1566
01:37:58,840 --> 01:38:02,200
Speaker 1: of has to start of her she's not landing the

1567
01:38:02,240 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 1: type of roles that she really wants. And also while

1568
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 1: this is happening, there seems to be a man who

1569
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:11,960
Speaker 1: is stalking her and sort of infiltrating her her life

1570
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 1: and then like posting about it online, which is so

1571
01:38:15,760 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 1: like wildly ahead of its time, considering this movie came

1572
01:38:18,880 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 1: out just like con No that we didn't know right,

1573
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:29,599
Speaker 1: but the so, the real similarities lie in just this

1574
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 1: sort of overall idea that it's about a woman who's

1575
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:36,599
Speaker 1: grasp on reality becomes more and more warped because, like,

1576
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:40,679
Speaker 1: as this woman is being stalked, she keeps seeing this

1577
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 1: image of her likeness. She thinks there's another woman out

1578
01:38:44,240 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 1: there who is either trying to be her or is

1579
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:50,559
Speaker 1: out to get her. Um, her mental state really starts

1580
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:54,880
Speaker 1: to unravel. There's a more specific example and that there's

1581
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:58,479
Speaker 1: a moment on the subway train where the main character,

1582
01:38:58,479 --> 01:39:02,599
Speaker 1: whose name is Mima not unlike Nina from Black Swan.

1583
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:06,360
Speaker 1: Um Mims sees an image of someone who looks exactly

1584
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:08,960
Speaker 1: like her, like in the reflection in a subway car,

1585
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:19,000
Speaker 1: and that exact thing happens in Black Swan. Yeah, uh so, so,

1586
01:39:19,080 --> 01:39:21,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's it seems like a pretty cut and

1587
01:39:21,120 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 1: dry thing. And if anything, maybe you want to watch

1588
01:39:23,320 --> 01:39:25,040
Speaker 1: that movie. So I'm glad you got to see it.

1589
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,479
Speaker 1: And now, I mean, now that we're in the choir,

1590
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 1: might and might as well, gotta gotta find something to

1591
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:33,960
Speaker 1: do time. I was about to Caitlin, did you ever

1592
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:38,679
Speaker 1: play Club Penguin? No, what's that? You should google Club Penguin.

1593
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:40,720
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get more specific. I feel like

1594
01:39:40,920 --> 01:39:46,520
Speaker 1: we might, we might thrive on Club Penguin. Okay, anyways, Um,

1595
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:49,120
Speaker 1: you had one more fun piece of I mean, this

1596
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:53,320
Speaker 1: is just juicy. This okay, So I hit it. So

1597
01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 1: I read that while this movie was being filmed, Darren

1598
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:01,400
Speaker 1: Aronofsky tried to pit Natalie Portman and Mila Kunas against

1599
01:40:01,439 --> 01:40:06,280
Speaker 1: each other. I guess to just like try to heighten

1600
01:40:06,439 --> 01:40:10,080
Speaker 1: the tension between the characters in the film, but he

1601
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:15,320
Speaker 1: would do this by sending them text messages that complimented

1602
01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 1: the other actors performance to make them jealous of each other.

1603
01:40:19,240 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 1: So he would be like, hey, Mila, didn't Natalie do

1604
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:26,200
Speaker 1: such a good job on set today, which is so

1605
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:29,040
Speaker 1: like transparent to It's like, if you're going to try

1606
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:33,120
Speaker 1: to like emotionally manipulate someone, like make an effort, dude,

1607
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:38,400
Speaker 1: like week week week. Well, here's the best part is

1608
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 1: that it did not work, and it had quite the

1609
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:45,840
Speaker 1: opposite effect of what Aronofsky wanted because Natalie and Mila

1610
01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:51,200
Speaker 1: were already good friends, so whenever Aronofsky texted one with

1611
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 1: compliments about the other, they would just respond and say, yes,

1612
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 1: I agree, my friend Natalie apartment is doing a great job.

1613
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:03,599
Speaker 1: Thank you for noticing. Like, oh, brother, I just yeah,

1614
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:06,600
Speaker 1: that makes me so happy because it's like Natalie a

1615
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:10,040
Speaker 1: Portman and mel Cunis seemed to, i mean, based on

1616
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 1: what I know, seemed to be lovely people, and um,

1617
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:16,240
Speaker 1: I'm glad that they just were like all four like.

1618
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 1: And also that darrena. Ronowsky's assumption is that women don't

1619
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 1: want to support each other just like plays into so

1620
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 1: many tropes that is like, hey, maybe not assuming this

1621
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:29,839
Speaker 1: would make you a better writer. Um right, Unfortunately, I

1622
01:41:29,880 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 1: still love this movie so much forever and ever and

1623
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 1: ever a man. Uh but yeah, So that that was

1624
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:41,439
Speaker 1: our That was our exclusive quarantine bonus content. Um that

1625
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 1: we wanted to everyone to know. And that's the episode, right, Yes,

1626
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:49,360
Speaker 1: that's it. So thanks for listening. Thanks to everyone who

1627
01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: came to the live show. Thanks to our guest Hunter

1628
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 1: Harris Um, she is incredible. Thank you to the Brooklyn

1629
01:41:57,320 --> 01:42:02,000
Speaker 1: Podcast Festival for having us, as well as the Bellhouse

1630
01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:05,439
Speaker 1: for hosting. Yes, thanks to again thanks to everyone who

1631
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:10,080
Speaker 1: came out, who bought merch um who just supports us

1632
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:14,200
Speaker 1: in any way, and um, you can also support us

1633
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:19,080
Speaker 1: by you know, following us on social media, um, going

1634
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:23,040
Speaker 1: to our patreon aka Matreon and subscribing four or five

1635
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:25,680
Speaker 1: dollars a month. We're gonna be, yeah, trying to do

1636
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,240
Speaker 1: more like community stuff on there. But also if you

1637
01:42:29,280 --> 01:42:32,160
Speaker 1: can't afford it right now, we totally understand, like it's

1638
01:42:32,439 --> 01:42:35,120
Speaker 1: it's a time at the time, it's a time, yes,

1639
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:37,040
Speaker 1: yes indeed, but if you can't afford it, it's a

1640
01:42:37,040 --> 01:42:41,200
Speaker 1: great way to pass some time. And it's very true. Now,

1641
01:42:41,240 --> 01:42:45,519
Speaker 1: listen to those bonus episodes. So I mean, and when

1642
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 1: we got time to burn, we're gonna start making some

1643
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:52,200
Speaker 1: wild pics. Right now, its share March. Um, but we

1644
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:54,160
Speaker 1: have we have, we have some stuff in the mix.

1645
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:56,479
Speaker 1: But UM, yeah, you can keep in touch with us

1646
01:42:56,520 --> 01:43:01,280
Speaker 1: there and UM in the meantime, take care of yourselves.

1647
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:05,320
Speaker 1: We hope that, uh, the podcast is a good distraction

1648
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:09,680
Speaker 1: from um, from all the other stuff going on. And

1649
01:43:10,000 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 1: we're here for you. We love you, yes, we love you.

1650
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 1: Take care, be safe. Bye bye