WEBVTT - Ep. 21: How You Create a New West, and a New America

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<v Speaker 1>Along with Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt was the American president

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<v Speaker 1>most fascinated with nature and with the American West, and

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<v Speaker 1>like Jefferson, Roosevelt transformed the region he loved. I'm dan Flores,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is the American West, brought to you by

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<v Speaker 1>Velvet Buck Wine, where the hunt meets the harvest. A

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<v Speaker 1>portion of each bottle goes to support backcountry hunters and anglers.

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<v Speaker 1>Limited supply available at Velvetbuckvineyards dot com. Enjoy responsible how

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<v Speaker 1>you create a new West and a new America. He

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<v Speaker 1>was a former President of the United States and might

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<v Speaker 1>hold that office again. He was also an internationally known

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<v Speaker 1>sportsman and advocate of adventurous living whose demise would have

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<v Speaker 1>caused shockwaves. But descending the unexplored Rio da Duvida the

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<v Speaker 1>River of Doubt in early nineteen fourteen, Teddy Roosevelt was

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<v Speaker 1>injured and ill, and had watched his Great South American

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<v Speaker 1>adventure with legendary explorer Candido Rondon almost disintegrate in the

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<v Speaker 1>Brazilian jungle. No novelists could have written the scene better

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<v Speaker 1>for him. We've reached a point where some of us

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<v Speaker 1>must stop, he told his son Kermit. I feel I

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<v Speaker 1>am only a burden to the party. It was classic

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<v Speaker 1>Theodore Roosevelt, a romantic hero who, despite his fame, was

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<v Speaker 1>willing to sacrifice himself for his companions. The Party had

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<v Speaker 1>none of it, of course, but the incident is a

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<v Speaker 1>window on the characteristics that led Theodore Roosevelt to the

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<v Speaker 1>life of accomplishment and adventure. He created. Few things Teddy

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt ever did, were easy. Maybe that is why he

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<v Speaker 1>gloried so and challenge. By sheer force of will, he

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<v Speaker 1>turned himself from a weak, sickly adolescent into a hearty

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<v Speaker 1>and robust Harvard undergraduate who boxed and hunted, and eventually

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<v Speaker 1>into a lifelong advocate of what he called the strenuous life.

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<v Speaker 1>That same determination marked his administrations as President of the

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<v Speaker 1>United States, enabling him to enact major progressive social policies,

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<v Speaker 1>central to which was the first comprehensive environmental program in

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<v Speaker 1>American history. Roosevelt's ideal image of an American was someone

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<v Speaker 1>who knew the natural world, which was why conservation of

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<v Speaker 1>an endangered nation was central to his accomplishments. As with

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas Jefferson, whose goals for the West enabled Americans to

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<v Speaker 1>grasp its outlines, we shouldn't be surprised to discover a

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<v Speaker 1>similar fascination with nature in the president who laid down

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<v Speaker 1>America's and the West's environmental foundation. But in contrast to Jefferson,

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<v Speaker 1>who sat on his mountain in Virginia and imagined the West,

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt experienced the West and the world firsthand. Roosevelt was

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<v Speaker 1>from one of the Eastern families of patrician elites so

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<v Speaker 1>visible in the history of the West. His birth in

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen fifty eight almost made him a Civil War baby,

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<v Speaker 1>but as his mother was a Southerner, the Civil War

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<v Speaker 1>and reconstruction were always forbidden topics. Nature, wild animals, and

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<v Speaker 1>the West, on the other hand, were the focus of

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<v Speaker 1>law long discussions between Roosevelt's father, who was an early

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<v Speaker 1>disciple of Darwin and a founder of the American Museum

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<v Speaker 1>of Natural History, and an uncle who was a nationalist.

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<v Speaker 1>When he was only ten, Roosevelt's family toured Europe, and

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<v Speaker 1>despite young Teddy's frequent attacks of asthma, he and his

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<v Speaker 1>father climbed Mount Vesuvius. Three years later, they were on

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<v Speaker 1>a boat descending the Nile in Egypt, where, with a

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<v Speaker 1>new shotgun, Teddy shot and collected more than one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>birds for his own museum, as he called it. In

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<v Speaker 1>a situation of many options, Teddy did not surprise his

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<v Speaker 1>family when he announced that he wanted to train as

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<v Speaker 1>a naturalist. Like a significant number though not all of

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<v Speaker 1>nature obsessed Americans, Audubon was one, so were George Bird

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<v Speaker 1>Grennell and Aldo Leopold Teddy. Roosevelt and his interest in

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<v Speaker 1>nature began in a boyhood of observing, pursu pursuing, and

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<v Speaker 1>hunting wild animals in wild country. His yearning to make

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<v Speaker 1>natural history a profession was officially abandoned at Harvard. Though

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<v Speaker 1>Teddy wanted a natural history career after the fashion of

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<v Speaker 1>the great naturalists like Alexander von Humboldt or John James Ottoman,

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted to explore exotic locales and hunt and collect

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<v Speaker 1>new species. By his time at Harvard, natural history had

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<v Speaker 1>become a Darwinian exercise of laboratory work. Teddy and a

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<v Speaker 1>fellow ornithology enthusiast, instead worked on and published The Summer

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<v Speaker 1>Birds of the Adirondacks, and by his junior year, Roosevelt

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<v Speaker 1>had decided that the professional natural sciences was not going

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<v Speaker 1>to be his career. Long interested in history, and in

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<v Speaker 1>writing interest that turned out to be a way to

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<v Speaker 1>explore and hunt and collect in the imagination. With a

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<v Speaker 1>heart over degree in hand, Roosevelt turned to a book

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<v Speaker 1>project about how the American frontier had advanced from the

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<v Speaker 1>Eastern seaboard westward. Although much of his story was set

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<v Speaker 1>east of the Mississippi, with men like Daniel Boone and

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<v Speaker 1>Davy Crockett as its heroes. Roosevelt called the book The

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<v Speaker 1>Winning of the West. By this time in his life,

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt had made a series of trips to outback Maine,

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<v Speaker 1>and in eighteen eighty he and his younger brother Elliott

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<v Speaker 1>journeyed to Iowa and Minnesota, where, as was common at

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<v Speaker 1>the time, they killed more than four hundred birds and animals,

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<v Speaker 1>yet were disappointed with their take. To this point in

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<v Speaker 1>his life, Roosevelt had not yet been to the actual West,

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<v Speaker 1>where in his imagination it was still possible to experience

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<v Speaker 1>the world of the frontier hunters he was writing about.

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<v Speaker 1>But in September eighteen eighty three, after running his first

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<v Speaker 1>political campaign and getting elected as an assemblyman to the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Legislature, he finally boarded a train with connections

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<v Speaker 1>to the real West to Roosevelt. Cultured men looked to Europe,

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<v Speaker 1>but manly men looked to the West for their inspiration.

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<v Speaker 1>So his destination was as far in the Dakota territory

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<v Speaker 1>as trains would take him, and his mission was specific.

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt wanted to engage in that most western of acts,

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<v Speaker 1>shooting a buffalo, before such a thing was no longer possible.

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<v Speaker 1>His younger brother, by then was hunting tigers in India

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<v Speaker 1>and had faced a stampeding buffalo herd in West Texas.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone knew buffalo were almost gone by then, but there

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<v Speaker 1>were a few, and a buffalo had on the wall

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<v Speaker 1>of your study would convey where your sympathies lay. Until

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<v Speaker 1>the late eighteen eighties, however, Roosevelt else seems not to

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<v Speaker 1>effaced the issue of declining animal populations with much awareness.

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<v Speaker 1>His soon to be friend in the conservation field, journalist

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<v Speaker 1>George Bird Grenelle, was already developing a much more progressive

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<v Speaker 1>credo Roosevelt's, and hints the country's ideas about the natural

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<v Speaker 1>world we'd inherited were about to be shaped into a

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<v Speaker 1>modern form. By this Western experience, buffalo had become the

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<v Speaker 1>mammalian representative of America for all the world in the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century, but their story had now taken a much

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<v Speaker 1>darker tone. Everyone knew that American market hunters were killing

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<v Speaker 1>buffalo by the thousands on a daily basis. The Last

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<v Speaker 1>of the Buffalo became a phrase that defined the eighteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighties the way the Roaring Twenties would define a decade

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<v Speaker 1>forty years later. It was the decade when William Hornaday

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<v Speaker 1>collected bison specimens for the Nash Museum's diorama, in the

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<v Speaker 1>belief that this might be the only way future Americans

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<v Speaker 1>would get to see buffalo. The painter Albert Berstott finished

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<v Speaker 1>his grand oil The Last of the Buffalo in eighteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 1>The same year, a band of Lakota's was massacred by

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<v Speaker 1>the Seventh Cavalry at Wounded Need for performing a dance

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<v Speaker 1>to return Buffalo to the West. Grinnell also chose The

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<v Speaker 1>Last of the Buffalo as the title for his widely

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<v Speaker 1>read book From Scribners and Sons. The demise of America's

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<v Speaker 1>most iconic animal was in the air, and many wondered

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<v Speaker 1>what that meant. In eighteen eighty three, though for Roosevelt,

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<v Speaker 1>a buffalo trophy represented America's ultimate prize. Stepping off the

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<v Speaker 1>train in North Dakota, he hired a guide named Joe Ferris, who,

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<v Speaker 1>in perfect symmetry for that decade, was from eastern Canada

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<v Speaker 1>and had himself only been on the scene in the

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<v Speaker 1>West for a year. They made the Maltese Cross Ranch

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<v Speaker 1>their headquarters and set out on horseback on what turned

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<v Speaker 1>into a fifteen day quest. The days of Audubon describing

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<v Speaker 1>the sound of the vast herds in this same country

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<v Speaker 1>as resembling continuous rolling thunder were now gone forever. That

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<v Speaker 1>year of Roosevelt's hunt, the Fort Benton shipper I. G.

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<v Speaker 1>Baker sent a grand total of five thousand buffalo hides

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<v Speaker 1>down the Missouri River. The next year he shipped none

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<v Speaker 1>at all. The bison story was already exemplifying that in

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<v Speaker 1>the scope of world history, the United States had engaged

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<v Speaker 1>in a more complete destruction of wild animals and a

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<v Speaker 1>wider diversity of them than any modern country in existence.

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt's bison hunt was a revelation to him. Initially, he

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<v Speaker 1>wrote his wife Alice, that buffalo are too rare for

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<v Speaker 1>me to hope to get one. Over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>two weeks of horseback travel that took them into Montana territory.

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<v Speaker 1>They found a handful. Roosevelt wounded one bison he never found,

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<v Speaker 1>and missed shots at another pair before finally downing an

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<v Speaker 1>unsuspecting bull barely fifty yards distant, a handsome animal whose

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<v Speaker 1>glossy fall coat was in fine trim and shone in

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<v Speaker 1>the rays of the sun. He said, the celebration became

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<v Speaker 1>the stuff of Western romance. Teddy did a freestyle Indian

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<v Speaker 1>dance and paid Ferris one hundred dollars on the spot,

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<v Speaker 1>hooked on the curious, fantastic beauty of the bad lands,

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<v Speaker 1>before he departed, he bought an interest in his first

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<v Speaker 1>ranch there, the Maltese Cross. On a return trip the

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<v Speaker 1>next year, eighteen eighty four, he bought a second property,

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<v Speaker 1>he called the Elkhorn, along the Little Missouri, the nearest

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<v Speaker 1>neighbor twelve miles away. These Western experiences were pivotal in

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt's life. They gave him a base of operations in

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<v Speaker 1>the West and put him in contact with individuals whose

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<v Speaker 1>characters stood naked in that setting. He later commented that

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<v Speaker 1>he learned how to evaluate people in those years, an

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<v Speaker 1>affirmation of his evolving belief and strength directness and the

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<v Speaker 1>will to make things happen. He also learned much more

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<v Speaker 1>now about the Western animals he had read about from Elkhorn.

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<v Speaker 1>He hunted deer and pronghorns, and farther west in the

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<v Speaker 1>Big Horns and the Bitter Roots, grizzlies, elk and moose.

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<v Speaker 1>He hunted mountain goats in the Curdelanes, and caribou in

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<v Speaker 1>the Selkirk Range. Working on the grand history that became

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<v Speaker 1>the Winning of the West, Roosevelt concluded that this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of life, a life roaming the wilderness and hunting, was

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<v Speaker 1>the very path that had allowed Europeans to become Americans.

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<v Speaker 1>Living it, he felt, as he put it, absolutely free

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<v Speaker 1>as a man could feel. But experiencing the West of

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<v Speaker 1>the eighteen eighties was accompanied by a sadder realization. In

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<v Speaker 1>a violation of his Western fantasies, Roosevelt was discovering that,

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<v Speaker 1>in fact, there is not much game. Buffalo were gone,

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<v Speaker 1>elk and deer, and grizzlies weren't far behind. When it

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<v Speaker 1>shot his buffalo, he knew full well that it was,

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<v Speaker 1>as he put it, part of the last remnant of

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<v Speaker 1>a doomed and nearly vanished race. Yet he had still

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<v Speaker 1>shot his bull. That had to have been on his

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<v Speaker 1>mind when he began to realize that, in fact, everything

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to be disappearing. This onslaught on Western nature was

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<v Speaker 1>being delivered by what Roosevelt now referred to as skin

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<v Speaker 1>hunters and greasy nimrods, all of them products of greed

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<v Speaker 1>and self interest. The wild, wild West afforded remarkable freedom

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<v Speaker 1>that was evident, but frontier anarchy without restraint was devouring

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<v Speaker 1>the world with no regard whatsoever, either for its perpetuation

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<v Speaker 1>or for future generations. This was unexpected and depressing, so

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<v Speaker 1>was losing both his wife and his mother almost simultaneously

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<v Speaker 1>that decade, which set him into an emotional spiral, calling

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<v Speaker 1>on the sunshine and champagne air of the West. To

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<v Speaker 1>help overcome these tragedies. Roosevelt turned to writing articles for

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<v Speaker 1>a magazine called Outing, and working on a book he

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<v Speaker 1>would title Hunting Trips of a Ranchman, which appeared in

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<v Speaker 1>print in eighteen eighty five. By the time the Winner

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<v Speaker 1>of eighteen eighty six eighty seven ruined his ranching operation,

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<v Speaker 1>he had enough material for another pair of hunting books,

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<v Speaker 1>Life and the Hunting Trail in eighteen eighty eight and

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<v Speaker 1>The Wilderness Hunter in eighteen ninety three. These were the

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<v Speaker 1>books that established Roosevelt's reputation as someone who knew the

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<v Speaker 1>West and understood what was happening to it. They also

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<v Speaker 1>brought him into contact with people who were about to

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<v Speaker 1>push him much farther along the road to environmental thinking.

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<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt met Grennell, editor of a famous conservation themed magazine

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<v Speaker 1>called Forest and Stream, following Grennell's quite critical review of

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<v Speaker 1>hunting Trips of a Ranchman, bursting into Grenell's office demanding

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<v Speaker 1>to know why the journalists had been underwhelmed, Roosevelt ended

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<v Speaker 1>up impressed with his fellow ivy leaguer's knowledge of the

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<v Speaker 1>state of the West and its fast declining wildlife. With

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<v Speaker 1>Grennell's coaching and friendship over the next fifteen years of

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<v Speaker 1>his career, Roosevelt launched the intellectual journey that was ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>transform America and bring it into the twentieth century. Their

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<v Speaker 1>organization of elite hunters, the Boone and Crocket Club, along

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<v Speaker 1>with Grennell's automn Society, provided platforms that translated their Western

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<v Speaker 1>experiences into a rethinking about freedom and nature. The particular

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<v Speaker 1>epiphany that became the foundation for this rethinking wasn't an

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<v Speaker 1>easy one, but for those who loved American nature, the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence for it was everywhere. Pure self interests of the

0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Adam Smith sort, which had driven capitalism for most of

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 1>American history, was growing close to leaving nothing for the future.

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.320
<v Speaker 1>Largely through witnessing the loss of the wild animals he loved,

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt was coming to an undergirding principle for the political

0:16:54.000 --> 0:17:01.040
<v Speaker 1>revolution known as progressivism. Capitalism's excesses, it turned out, we're

0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.040
<v Speaker 1>going to have to be curbed and regulated, and the

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:09.560
<v Speaker 1>lesson then being offered by railroad and oil company domination

0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.000
<v Speaker 1>of state governments meant to Roosevelt and progressives that the

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 1>only entity truly powerful enough to regulate capitalism was the

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.840
<v Speaker 1>federal government. In search of a word that might symbolize

0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 1>what he had in mind, Roosevelt borrowed the term conservation

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:32.720
<v Speaker 1>from British governance of India. To conserve something meant to

0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 1>save it, to ensure its perpetuation. As an American, Roosevelt

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 1>saw conservation in democratic terms. He would develop programs wherein

0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.840
<v Speaker 1>the federal government would conserve American nature for what he

0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:52.119
<v Speaker 1>called the greatest good, for the greatest number, and for

0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 1>the longest period of time a great country and a

0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:02.520
<v Speaker 1>great civilization, Roosevelt believed needed to understand Danned itself. The

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 1>first step involved taking some sort of action to curb

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>the market hunt for wildlife that for three centuries had

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>systematically destroyed everything from deer, turkey, great auks, passenger pigeons,

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.679
<v Speaker 1>and plume birds like snowy egrets in the East, to

0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:24.680
<v Speaker 1>a near obliteration of Western wildlife, most shamefully America's iconic animal,

0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.879
<v Speaker 1>the bison. Until nineteen hundred, the US federal government had

0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 1>stood by and allowed unregulated capitalism to have its way

0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:37.040
<v Speaker 1>with wildlife. But in that year an Iowa congressman named

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:41.640
<v Speaker 1>John Lacy stepped forward with a plan to engage Washington

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:47.679
<v Speaker 1>in halting these abominations. Lacey acquired his status with the

0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 1>new wildlife activists following a series of celebrated incidents in

0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:57.879
<v Speaker 1>Yellowstone Park in the early eighteen nineties. US Army game

0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.400
<v Speaker 1>warden Ed Wilson had tested a notorious park poacher, whom

0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:06.480
<v Speaker 1>a local judge promptly released, citing a lack of any

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.840
<v Speaker 1>law to prosecute him. A few weeks later, Wilson vanished

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.919
<v Speaker 1>without a trace. Other wardens found Wilson's hidden remains. A

0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:20.440
<v Speaker 1>year later, that story brought a forest and Stream reporter

0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.560
<v Speaker 1>to Yellowstone, who soon elicited from another poacher that his

0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:29.440
<v Speaker 1>own arrest and release had involved the massacre of eighty buffalo,

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.480
<v Speaker 1>most of the bison still left in the park at

0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.239
<v Speaker 1>that point, Lacey introduced and secured passage in Congress of

0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:42.160
<v Speaker 1>the eighteen ninety four Yellowstone Park Protection Act with one

0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:47.800
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars fines for killing wildlife. Six years later, Lacey

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 1>decided to take on the biggest monster of them all,

0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.440
<v Speaker 1>a practice that since colonial days, could have made fair progress,

0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.480
<v Speaker 1>filling the Grand Canyon with the bodies of all the

0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 1>American birds and animals killed for money. White haired, bearded slender.

0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.239
<v Speaker 1>Lacey was about to turn sixty in history and in

0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 1>his career. The time had come calling on the federal

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:18.119
<v Speaker 1>government's constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce. Lacey drew up

0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:22.600
<v Speaker 1>an act he called the wild Birds and Game Preservation

0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Act that at last landed a body blow on the

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.920
<v Speaker 1>wild animal's economy. At long last, a federal law stopped

0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.679
<v Speaker 1>the shipping of slain birds, animals, and their body parts

0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 1>from states where market hunting was still legal to states

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:44.280
<v Speaker 1>where it wasn't. It was already too late for passenger

0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.399
<v Speaker 1>pigeons and wild bison. It verged on too late for

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:53.359
<v Speaker 1>snowy egrets, Carolina parakeets, and a lengthening list of others.

0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.640
<v Speaker 1>But the Lacy Act finally put a long hesitant US

0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:02.359
<v Speaker 1>federal government in play. His speech describing the bill before Congress,

0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:06.879
<v Speaker 1>Lacey referenced both passenger pigeons and bison, but he proclaimed

0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:11.160
<v Speaker 1>that all was not lost, that there still remains much

0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:15.000
<v Speaker 1>to preserve. As he put it in truth, the Laciact

0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.120
<v Speaker 1>put the burden for enlightened laws on the states. Following

0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.720
<v Speaker 1>a Supreme Court case that ruled that wildlife was the

0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:27.440
<v Speaker 1>property of the states where the animals resided. States now

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:32.359
<v Speaker 1>began creating what they called game departments and enacting policies

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.960
<v Speaker 1>on behalf of at least some of their wild animals.

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.760
<v Speaker 1>For guidance in that endeavor, they looked to the New

0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:45.560
<v Speaker 1>US Biological Survey, headed up by another Ivy leaguer, C.

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:55.159
<v Speaker 1>Heart Miriam. In nineteen oh one, when an assassin's bullet

0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.399
<v Speaker 1>cut down President William McKinley early in his second term,

0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.760
<v Speaker 1>his vice president was a forty two year old former

0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:08.480
<v Speaker 1>New York congressman and city mayor who Republican Party operatives

0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:14.200
<v Speaker 1>referred to as that damned cowboy. Teddy Roosevelt, the youngest

0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 1>man ever to serve as president, with a prodigious, manic,

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:23.639
<v Speaker 1>depressive personality, had the chance to transform America fall into

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.760
<v Speaker 1>his lap. Here was a stunning opportunity to take on

0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:32.800
<v Speaker 1>the issues that had dominated his life since childhood. If celebrated,

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.159
<v Speaker 1>individual freedom was the very cause of the destruction of

0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:41.000
<v Speaker 1>America's animals, not to mention its forest, its grasslands, its fisheries,

0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:46.040
<v Speaker 1>its archaeological sites. Then expanding government power to regulate such

0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.880
<v Speaker 1>freedom was the only course that could preserve the country.

0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:56.200
<v Speaker 1>What he and his policymakers called conservation became his personal

0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:01.240
<v Speaker 1>campaign to save the animals and landscapes he believed had

0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:07.640
<v Speaker 1>created Homo Americanus in the first place. The whole standpoint

0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 1>of the people toward the proper aim of government, Roosevelt

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.920
<v Speaker 1>would write, were brought out first by this conservation work.

0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.800
<v Speaker 1>The proper aim of government, he was now convinced, was

0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:24.879
<v Speaker 1>to moderate the selfishness and thoughtlessness inherent in human nature.

0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.679
<v Speaker 1>What conservation and progressivism would do was set America on

0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:34.600
<v Speaker 1>a different path a sharp detour from the three century

0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.560
<v Speaker 1>attempt to make the US a clone of the countries

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.760
<v Speaker 1>of Western Europe. The idea was to create a nation

0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:45.880
<v Speaker 1>that stood separate and new. Nothing in Roosevelt's programs said that,

0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:51.000
<v Speaker 1>quite like his enthusiastic endorsement once he became president of

0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:56.800
<v Speaker 1>the existing public land system, Roosevelt's massive additions to this

0:23:57.000 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 1>distinctly American form of land ownership and public access, in

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:06.000
<v Speaker 1>the form of new national parks, national forests, wildlife and

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:11.200
<v Speaker 1>bird refuges, and national monuments amounted to a wholesale reset.

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.200
<v Speaker 1>I'll have more to say in the next episode about

0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:17.600
<v Speaker 1>the origins and direction of America's public lands. One of

0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:21.280
<v Speaker 1>our very best contributions to world ideas and policy. But

0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:25.080
<v Speaker 1>it was Teddy Roosevelt who took that embryonic system and

0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:30.159
<v Speaker 1>made it a badge of American uniqueness. Histories of the

0:24:30.240 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 1>presidency tend to label Roosevelt's conservation programs as one of

0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:39.720
<v Speaker 1>the nation's grand transformative policy triumphs, and that claim is

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:47.200
<v Speaker 1>no exaggeration. Conservation's successes were breathtaking. To begin, Roosevelt oversaw

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:51.480
<v Speaker 1>the creation of six new national parks, a form of

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:57.480
<v Speaker 1>preserved wildlands America had invented with Yellowstone and Yosemite three

0:24:57.560 --> 0:25:03.280
<v Speaker 1>decades earlier, with Pelican Island in Florida, which he designated

0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:06.960
<v Speaker 1>by executive order in nineteen o three as a reserve

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.439
<v Speaker 1>and breeding ground for native birds, and continuing with a

0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 1>pair of National Bison Ranges in Oklahoma and Montana to

0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:19.840
<v Speaker 1>rescue our iconic mammal. Then on through his Lame Duck period,

0:25:19.960 --> 0:25:23.600
<v Speaker 1>when new bird reservations, a total of fifty one of them,

0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.480
<v Speaker 1>seemed to precipitate like rain from the heavens, Roosevelt created

0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:32.280
<v Speaker 1>a national wildlife refuge system that preserved millions of acres

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:37.040
<v Speaker 1>of prize bird and mammal habitat. The forest reserves that

0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:40.440
<v Speaker 1>he and Grenell celebrated in the eighteen nineties were at

0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:45.719
<v Speaker 1>forty two million acres when Roosevelt assumed the presidency. Renamed

0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:51.160
<v Speaker 1>National Forests by Roosevelt's Chief forester, Gifford Pinchot, they swelled

0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:56.120
<v Speaker 1>to one hundred and seventy two million acres, including Tongas

0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:00.480
<v Speaker 1>a seventeen million acre monster in Alaska by the time

0:26:00.560 --> 0:26:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Roosevelt left office. Using the New Antiquities Act of nineteen

0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:10.040
<v Speaker 1>oh six to protect America's archaeological sites, and to set

0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:15.240
<v Speaker 1>aside landscapes of unique geological importance. He proclaimed another extensive

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.760
<v Speaker 1>body of preserves from the public lands in the form

0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:25.639
<v Speaker 1>of eighteen National monuments, a new conservation category. Devil's Tower

0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:29.920
<v Speaker 1>in Wyoming, one of many scores of nature spots Christian

0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:34.760
<v Speaker 1>Americans had assigned a Satanic association, became the first of these,

0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.480
<v Speaker 1>but the Grand Canyon itself was another of those early

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 1>national monuments. In just eight years, Roosevelt removed more than

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 1>two hundred and thirty million acres of General Land Office

0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:53.760
<v Speaker 1>holdings from private entry, retaining them in public ownership, setting

0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:57.879
<v Speaker 1>aside more public lands than any other president, and transforming

0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:01.720
<v Speaker 1>the future of the country in the process. Us Providing

0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:05.160
<v Speaker 1>refuges for America's big mammals and birds was a primary

0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:10.680
<v Speaker 1>reason he did almost all of it. Douglas Brinkley's Wilderness Warrior,

0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:15.280
<v Speaker 1>probably the best recent biography of him, lays that triumphant

0:27:15.359 --> 0:27:22.200
<v Speaker 1>story out in point by point detail. But Roosevelt was human, and,

0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:26.439
<v Speaker 1>as are we all, a product of his time and place.

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:31.199
<v Speaker 1>While he could explain the tragedy of wildlife loss with

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:36.000
<v Speaker 1>lovely analogies, the destruction of the wild pigeon and the

0:27:36.000 --> 0:27:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Carolina parakeet has meant a loss as severe as if

0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 1>the catskills or the palisades were taken away. He wrote,

0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:45.800
<v Speaker 1>when I hear of.

0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:49.080
<v Speaker 2>The destruction of a species, I feel just as if

0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>all the works of some great writer had perished. But

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>despite that, he resisted drawing the conclusions from Darwin that

0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:04.359
<v Speaker 2>many disciples thought the great naturalists intended. Roosevelt had grown

0:28:04.440 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 2>up verse in Darwin read Darwin himself when he was

0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:11.080
<v Speaker 2>a young teenager floating the Nile, believed from that point

0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:14.960
<v Speaker 2>onward that humans were indeed primates that had evolved from

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:20.480
<v Speaker 2>earlier forms. Nonetheless, the animals he hunted did not, perhaps

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:26.400
<v Speaker 2>for him, simply could not become evolutionary near ken of humans.

0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:32.600
<v Speaker 2>While Roosevelt was president, his writer friend John Burrows precipitated

0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 2>a public controversy about the accuracy of a popular new genre,

0:28:38.000 --> 0:28:41.840
<v Speaker 2>a form of literary natural history that attempted to provide

0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:46.360
<v Speaker 2>insight into the lives of wild animals. Most of the

0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:50.400
<v Speaker 2>new authors of animal stories were not scientists, but many

0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:54.880
<v Speaker 2>of them, notably John Mure, Jack London, and Canadian writer

0:28:55.080 --> 0:29:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Ernest Thompson Seaton, had extensive outdoor experience and employed scientific methodology. Setan,

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:08.120
<v Speaker 2>ironically enough, won the John Burrows Medal for his Comprehensive

0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Lives of Game Animals book.

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:16.920
<v Speaker 1>William T. Horneby praised Setan's work. Looking back on this

0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:22.840
<v Speaker 1>nature Faker controversy, labeled so by Roosevelt from today's vantage,

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:26.920
<v Speaker 1>what seems apparent is that its practitioners were trying to

0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:31.080
<v Speaker 1>take on the big implications of Darwinism in the world

0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:34.960
<v Speaker 1>around them. Theirs was a response, and it strongly appealed

0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:38.560
<v Speaker 1>to the reading public to the bleak nature read in

0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>Tooth and Claw conclusions that Thomas Huxley, Herbert Spencer, and

0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:49.560
<v Speaker 1>Alfred Lord Tennyson drew from evolution. Instead of finding humans

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:54.040
<v Speaker 1>condemned because we'd turned out to be mere animals, nature

0:29:54.080 --> 0:29:57.840
<v Speaker 1>writers like Seaton looked for examples among birds and mammals

0:29:57.840 --> 0:30:04.480
<v Speaker 1>of traits Humans admired compassion, cooperation, loyalty, and ability to

0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:10.000
<v Speaker 1>reason and to transfer cultural learning across generations, and most

0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:15.160
<v Speaker 1>of all, self awareness and individuality. In one of Setan's

0:30:15.240 --> 0:30:19.640
<v Speaker 1>stories and Scribner's in nineteen hundred, a captured female coyote

0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.920
<v Speaker 1>named Tito Sits chained in a ranchyard observing the technique

0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Stockmann are using to wipe out the coyote kind. When

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:31.000
<v Speaker 1>she escapes and has litters of her own, she passes

0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:34.560
<v Speaker 1>on her knowledge about how to avoid traps in poison, which,

0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:39.320
<v Speaker 1>in Seatan's telling, was why coyotes were surviving when so

0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:43.840
<v Speaker 1>many other creatures were not. In his famous wolf story

0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 1>Lobo King of Corompa, Seatan wrote about a canny New

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 1>Mexico wolf with one fatal flaw his fidelity to his mate.

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 1>As he put the matter in Wild Animals I have known.

0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 1>Seatan's theme will use we and the beasts are ken

0:31:04.960 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>given the perspective of contemporary twenty first century bird and

0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:13.120
<v Speaker 1>mammal research, with its emphasis on self awareness, tool use,

0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:18.680
<v Speaker 1>theory of mind, perceptions of fairness, cultural transmission, grief over

0:31:18.720 --> 0:31:22.840
<v Speaker 1>the loss of mates, and individuality, all those things these

0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 1>writers seemed to be working with all that seemed to

0:31:26.000 --> 0:31:29.040
<v Speaker 1>be lacking In the best writings of the Seaton London

0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:35.240
<v Speaker 1>your genre were double blind, replicable experiments. But at the

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:39.360
<v Speaker 1>time the well respected Burrows, furious at what he saw

0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:45.720
<v Speaker 1>as chicanery, went on the attack. Non human animals, Burrows thundered,

0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:52.320
<v Speaker 1>were purely creatures of instinct, nothing more. That drew Roosevelt

0:31:52.320 --> 0:31:56.720
<v Speaker 1>into the fray. Simply enough, the nature fakers were misleading

0:31:56.760 --> 0:32:00.720
<v Speaker 1>their readers, he told the public. In a private communication

0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:05.600
<v Speaker 1>to the editor of Collier's magazine, Roosevelt went further. He

0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:09.640
<v Speaker 1>echoed the lines in Darwin's The Descent of Man when

0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:13.080
<v Speaker 1>he wrote the editor, I believe that the higher mammals

0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:17.160
<v Speaker 1>and birds have reasoning powers which differ in degree rather

0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:20.920
<v Speaker 1>than kind, from those of humans. But he continued, he

0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:25.200
<v Speaker 1>meant different in degree from the lower reasoning powers of,

0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:29.960
<v Speaker 1>for instance, the lower savages. In other words, if we

0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:35.120
<v Speaker 1>can take this astonishing comment literally, Roosevelt believed the resonances

0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:39.360
<v Speaker 1>and parallels between animals and humanity did not really apply

0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:44.440
<v Speaker 1>to modern first world humans, only to tribal indigenous peoples

0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:51.200
<v Speaker 1>who were lower in their evolutionary progress. Obviously, Roosevelt had

0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:55.840
<v Speaker 1>not absorbed the lessons of Colombian anthropologist Franz Boaz, who

0:32:55.920 --> 0:33:01.200
<v Speaker 1>was already arguing against Western ethnocentrism by positing that all

0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:06.240
<v Speaker 1>humans were equally evolved, but with cultures that followed very

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:10.959
<v Speaker 1>different trajectories. Jack London at least would eventually get a

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:16.040
<v Speaker 1>measure of revenge, telling Colliers readers that the truth was

0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:20.560
<v Speaker 1>that President Roosevelt does not understand evolution, and he does

0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:23.760
<v Speaker 1>not seem to have made much of an attempt to

0:33:23.920 --> 0:33:30.000
<v Speaker 1>understand evolution. That sentiment surfaced in a particularly troubling way

0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:34.440
<v Speaker 1>in Roosevelt's public endorsement of a book by fellow Ivy

0:33:34.520 --> 0:33:40.040
<v Speaker 1>leaguer and conservationist Madison Grant Grants. The passing of the

0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Great Race, with its advocacy of eugenics, made enough of

0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:48.280
<v Speaker 1>a white nationalist case to impress Adolf Hitler while getting

0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 1>ridiculed in f. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby. The first

0:33:53.600 --> 0:33:57.200
<v Speaker 1>time I visited the American Museum of Natural History, I'll

0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.560
<v Speaker 1>confess to doing a double take of the staff of

0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Teddy outside the main entrance. It presented Roosevelt as the

0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:10.760
<v Speaker 1>classic great man on horseback looking out over Manhattan Central Park,

0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:15.719
<v Speaker 1>innocent enough until you realize that he was being flanked

0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:21.280
<v Speaker 1>and escorted by both Native and African Americans on foot

0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.920
<v Speaker 1>on either side of him. The effect in modern New

0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:28.399
<v Speaker 1>York was jarring enough that in January of twenty twenty two,

0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:32.800
<v Speaker 1>the statue was taken down. John Muir got in a

0:34:32.880 --> 0:34:36.560
<v Speaker 1>twist of the knife two, making a case for protecting

0:34:36.640 --> 0:34:41.040
<v Speaker 1>a much bigger piece of Yosemite, including the Twoalomy Canyon,

0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:44.080
<v Speaker 1>soon to be the target of a dam Muir, and

0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>the President spent three nights camping in Yosemite without bodyguards.

0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:54.719
<v Speaker 1>That gave the legendary writer activists No Shrinking Violet himself

0:34:55.160 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 1>a chance to confront Roosevelt around their campfire. Question was

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:05.279
<v Speaker 1>something many had wondered about, but only the Scottish Poetico

0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Trampo was willing to broach. Mister Roosevelt, when are you

0:35:11.040 --> 0:35:16.600
<v Speaker 1>going to get beyond the boyishness of killing things? Author

0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:20.719
<v Speaker 1>of numerous books and magazine articles on hunting, probably already

0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 1>planning the African safari he would take as soon as

0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:28.400
<v Speaker 1>he was out of office. Roosevelt's response was an evasive mure,

0:35:28.920 --> 0:35:33.040
<v Speaker 1>I guess you're right. Roosevelt then went on to support

0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:36.959
<v Speaker 1>the O'Shaughnessy doawm in Yosemite Park, and in an eight

0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:41.040
<v Speaker 1>month expedition to Africa in nineteen oh nine, proceeded to

0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 1>shoot five thirteen mammals, four hundred and forty three birds,

0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:50.760
<v Speaker 1>and two three hundred and twenty two reptiles and amphibians,

0:35:50.800 --> 0:35:56.960
<v Speaker 1>all for science and the Smithsonian's cabinets. Of course, so then,

0:35:57.280 --> 0:36:00.880
<v Speaker 1>like everyone else who lived in the past, roosevelt worldview

0:36:00.960 --> 0:36:04.400
<v Speaker 1>did not always conform to our sense of right and

0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 1>wrong in the present. But Teddy Roosevelt still works for

0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:12.920
<v Speaker 1>me as an American hero. The country lost something of

0:36:13.000 --> 0:36:17.400
<v Speaker 1>incalculable value when, as the author of yet another book

0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:22.160
<v Speaker 1>he titled The Strenuous Life, Teddy Roosevelt stepped away from

0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:26.439
<v Speaker 1>the presidency in nineteen o nine after serving only one

0:36:26.520 --> 0:36:30.680
<v Speaker 1>full term, then went on his safari in Africa, followed

0:36:30.680 --> 0:36:35.200
<v Speaker 1>by his exploration and mapping of the least known remaining

0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:41.080
<v Speaker 1>source tributary of the Great Amazon River. Back home, the

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:45.799
<v Speaker 1>most nature obsessed president since Thomas Jefferson had turned the

0:36:45.880 --> 0:36:51.520
<v Speaker 1>country over to his successor, portly William Howard Taft, whose

0:36:51.600 --> 0:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>passion about outdoor endeavor was for the rugged and manly

0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 1>sport of golf.

0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:11.520
<v Speaker 3>Dan At the beginning of this episode, as I was

0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:16.360
<v Speaker 3>reading through the script, one thing really struck me, and

0:37:16.400 --> 0:37:21.000
<v Speaker 3>I think, when all the real famous anecdotes about Teddy

0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:23.400
<v Speaker 3>Roosevelt come to mind, he sort of has this boyish

0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:30.040
<v Speaker 3>quality to him, And as I'm reading this script, you

0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:33.000
<v Speaker 3>realize just how young he was when he's doing a

0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:35.479
<v Speaker 3>lot of this stuff. Like he goes when he goes

0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:37.880
<v Speaker 3>to hunt the Last Buffalo, he's twenty five.

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:38.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right.

0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:41.000
<v Speaker 3>And you think about when he bursts into George Bird

0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.720
<v Speaker 3>Grenell's office to argue with him. He's still in his twenties,

0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:45.880
<v Speaker 3>that's right, and that sort of behavior all of a

0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:49.239
<v Speaker 3>sudden starts to make a little more sense. Obviously he

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:53.120
<v Speaker 3>carried that with him, but even the Boone and Crockett Club,

0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.600
<v Speaker 3>he's less than thirty years old when he establishes that.

0:37:56.719 --> 0:37:58.759
<v Speaker 3>And that really struck me in the first part of

0:37:58.800 --> 0:38:03.759
<v Speaker 3>this episode was how active he was from finishing at

0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:07.160
<v Speaker 3>Harvard up until you know, his early thirties.

0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:11.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean he becomes president when he's forty two,

0:38:11.440 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 1>and that's in nineteen oh one. So those those scenes

0:38:15.680 --> 0:38:21.960
<v Speaker 1>in the beginning of this particular episode happened in the eighties,

0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:25.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, and so it's like he, as you said,

0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:29.560
<v Speaker 1>he's in his twenties, and so he's a very young man.

0:38:29.680 --> 0:38:34.000
<v Speaker 1>He's you know, and he's sort of got what almost

0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:36.800
<v Speaker 1>certainly one would argue as a kind of a manic,

0:38:36.880 --> 0:38:43.200
<v Speaker 1>depressive kind of personality. And fortunately for America and the world,

0:38:43.280 --> 0:38:46.240
<v Speaker 1>he's in the manic stage for most of his life.

0:38:46.719 --> 0:38:49.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he certainly has some moments of depression. But yeah,

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.920
<v Speaker 1>so he's a very young guy, and he's you know,

0:38:53.040 --> 0:38:55.600
<v Speaker 1>and he's ambitious, and of course he comes out of

0:38:55.880 --> 0:39:02.080
<v Speaker 1>this kind of patrician, elite New York family that enables

0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 1>him to kind of view the world as his oyster.

0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:07.480
<v Speaker 1>He can do anything he wants to do. He can

0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:10.680
<v Speaker 1>be any kind of person he wants to be, and

0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:13.640
<v Speaker 1>what he decides he wants to be from a very

0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:16.600
<v Speaker 1>early age. Just he wants to be a naturalist. He

0:39:16.640 --> 0:39:22.160
<v Speaker 1>wants to sort of be Alexander von Humboldt or you know,

0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:25.360
<v Speaker 1>John James Ottoman, someone like that who gets to go

0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:30.840
<v Speaker 1>out into the world and have adventures and hunt, and

0:39:30.920 --> 0:39:34.480
<v Speaker 1>he hunts throughout his life everywhere he goes, even on

0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:37.960
<v Speaker 1>that Brazilian adventure on the Real to Do, I mean,

0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:39.959
<v Speaker 1>he takes time out to go in a jaguar hunt

0:39:40.360 --> 0:39:44.560
<v Speaker 1>and he gets himself a jaguar on that particular trip too.

0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:48.160
<v Speaker 1>So that's kind of he's a person who had every

0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:50.400
<v Speaker 1>opportunity to do whatever he wanted to do in life,

0:39:50.880 --> 0:39:52.960
<v Speaker 1>but he knew from a very early age what it was,

0:39:53.120 --> 0:39:55.680
<v Speaker 1>and I mean he went for it with a tremendous

0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:59.200
<v Speaker 1>amount of energy. Yeah.

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Think another point that stood out to me in this

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:13.080
<v Speaker 3>chapter is you emphasize how his conservation ethos fit within

0:40:13.200 --> 0:40:18.319
<v Speaker 3>this broader progressive stage in American political development. And I

0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:23.200
<v Speaker 3>think that's unless you've studied progressivism and you're familiar with

0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:25.040
<v Speaker 3>it as a movement at the turn of the century,

0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:28.920
<v Speaker 3>it sort of gets left out of our understanding of conservation.

0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:30.359
<v Speaker 3>But I wonder if you can talk a little bit

0:40:30.360 --> 0:40:33.800
<v Speaker 3>about what you mean when you when you refer to

0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:37.040
<v Speaker 3>the progressivism of the Roosevelt era and sort of what

0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:40.440
<v Speaker 3>shape that took and what impulse has guided it.

0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a useful question to be sure, to provide

0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:47.840
<v Speaker 1>some context. I mean, what I did with the script

0:40:47.880 --> 0:40:52.799
<v Speaker 1>for this particular episode was to couch progressivism for Roosevelt

0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 1>primarily in conservation, and that's I think that's the natural

0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:04.880
<v Speaker 1>direction from which he comes to it. But progressivism was

0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 1>a kind of a bigger movement an American life in

0:41:08.640 --> 0:41:13.200
<v Speaker 1>those years, a political movement. It was a movement that

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:17.120
<v Speaker 1>prevailed in both parties, both the Republican and the Democratic parties.

0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:19.440
<v Speaker 1>And I mean Roosevelt was a Republican, but he was

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:23.600
<v Speaker 1>certainly strongly influenced by progressivism, and it was kind of

0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:29.440
<v Speaker 1>an argument at the turn of the century that capitalism,

0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:35.040
<v Speaker 1>particularly big corporate capitalism that was emerging in those days,

0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:40.799
<v Speaker 1>was a pretty scary force in American life and it

0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:45.000
<v Speaker 1>needed to be corralled and rained in some and the

0:41:45.200 --> 0:41:48.879
<v Speaker 1>argument became in the conservation realm and in several other

0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 1>realms that the federal government was the primary player in

0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.360
<v Speaker 1>doing that, although many of the states had strong progressive

0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:01.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of political developments as well. But the idea was

0:42:01.239 --> 0:42:05.680
<v Speaker 1>to insert the government, whether at the state level or

0:42:05.680 --> 0:42:09.360
<v Speaker 1>the federal level, into the economic life of the country

0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:16.359
<v Speaker 1>in order to do things like regulating drugs that were

0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:21.080
<v Speaker 1>sold in pharmacies and having the government began to intervene

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:23.759
<v Speaker 1>in making sure that the food that was sold in

0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:30.040
<v Speaker 1>grocery stores was healthy, and it extended to child labor

0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 1>laws and a variety of different things. What I try

0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 1>to do in this particular script, as I mentioned a

0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 1>minute ago, is to counch what Roosevelt's particular passion about

0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:50.279
<v Speaker 1>progressivism is in the conservation movement that establishes very much

0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:56.240
<v Speaker 1>the beginnings of the whole environmental movement in the United States.

0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:59.239
<v Speaker 1>And this, of course is one hundred and twenty five

0:42:59.320 --> 0:43:03.040
<v Speaker 1>years ago that this happens. But much of what becomes

0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:07.880
<v Speaker 1>the kind of framework of conservation and environmental thinking in

0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>America comes out of this particular period, and it does involve,

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:16.279
<v Speaker 1>as Roosevelt said, a different role for the government than

0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.600
<v Speaker 1>had been the case in American life up to this point.

0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:23.600
<v Speaker 1>So if you're a fan of, you know, kind of

0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>the anarchy of the wild wild West, this is the

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 1>point at which Americans, in particularly someone like Tady Roosevelt,

0:43:31.680 --> 0:43:34.000
<v Speaker 1>who thinks that he says, a great civilization and a

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:37.600
<v Speaker 1>great country needs to understand itself that you have to

0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:40.640
<v Speaker 1>step in and say, Okay, you know that level of

0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:43.799
<v Speaker 1>freedom is great, but we're going to have to regulate

0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.040
<v Speaker 1>things and make sure that just kind of pure selfishness

0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:51.720
<v Speaker 1>doesn't prevail to the detriment of the future.

0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:58.040
<v Speaker 3>Especially And the other sort of intellectual thread that shapes

0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:03.840
<v Speaker 3>Roosevelt's world view is, as you point out, that of Darwinism,

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:09.840
<v Speaker 3>and you also point out that he fit within a

0:44:10.719 --> 0:44:16.000
<v Speaker 3>ongoing debate between what the implications of Darwinism were and

0:44:16.040 --> 0:44:21.640
<v Speaker 3>how that I mean, I think it's interesting to to

0:44:21.360 --> 0:44:23.760
<v Speaker 3>to point out that you can look at a wild

0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:26.200
<v Speaker 3>animal and think of it in two very different ways

0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:29.040
<v Speaker 3>through the lens of Darwinism. Yeah, as you did in

0:44:29.080 --> 0:44:30.120
<v Speaker 3>this in this chapter.

0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I tried. I tried to do this in

0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:36.719
<v Speaker 1>a way to provide a kind of a fresh look

0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:41.839
<v Speaker 1>at that sort of famous nature faker controversy where Roosevelt

0:44:43.040 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 1>and William Burrows in particular, charge these writers like Jack

0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:53.560
<v Speaker 1>London and John Muir and Ernest Thompson Seaton with with

0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:59.880
<v Speaker 1>faking the animals that they were writing about, and h

0:45:00.880 --> 0:45:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the truth is, with the perspective of another one hundred

0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:10.240
<v Speaker 1>and twenty five years of research, it looks as if

0:45:10.440 --> 0:45:14.839
<v Speaker 1>actually the people who were getting it right were probably

0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:20.160
<v Speaker 1>the writers themselves, you know. And I think Roosevelt stepping

0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:23.160
<v Speaker 1>into the fray, which he, of course he couldn't resist doing.

0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Or one thing, this was a subject dear to his heart,

0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:29.600
<v Speaker 1>and for another thing, he's you know, he inhabits the

0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:33.200
<v Speaker 1>bully pulpit as the president, and he tends to sort

0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:37.200
<v Speaker 1>of step into every debate that's out there. And I

0:45:37.440 --> 0:45:41.200
<v Speaker 1>think that what you get out of that story, as

0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:44.680
<v Speaker 1>I told it in this particular episode, is probably a

0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:49.960
<v Speaker 1>fresh look at how this played out and who in

0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:54.399
<v Speaker 1>fact probably had the better notions about the relationship that

0:45:54.440 --> 0:45:58.600
<v Speaker 1>people and other animals have. I mean, you know, I've

0:45:58.600 --> 0:46:02.719
<v Speaker 1>always loved that line that Ernest Thompson Seatan uses in

0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Wild Animals. I have known where he says, we and

0:46:05.719 --> 0:46:10.080
<v Speaker 1>the beasts are ken, and that's what these writers are

0:46:10.120 --> 0:46:16.919
<v Speaker 1>trying to convey. But Burrows and Roosevelt in particular pushed back.

0:46:17.000 --> 0:46:21.000
<v Speaker 1>They were resistant to that, and so it makes for

0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:25.279
<v Speaker 1>a kind of an interesting take on Roosevelt. I mean,

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.320
<v Speaker 1>we tend to think of him, you know, in pretty

0:46:27.719 --> 0:46:33.200
<v Speaker 1>heroic terms, but sometimes he wasn't right about things, and

0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:34.920
<v Speaker 1>I think this may have been one of those times.

0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:40.479
<v Speaker 3>And at the beginning you link him and maybe again

0:46:40.520 --> 0:46:42.640
<v Speaker 3>at the end you link him to Jefferson as the

0:46:42.680 --> 0:46:46.920
<v Speaker 3>two you know, chief executives who are most interested in

0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:50.520
<v Speaker 3>the West. And Jefferson I think, you know, they both

0:46:50.560 --> 0:46:55.560
<v Speaker 3>have a curiosity about animals and landscapes. But when it

0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:58.839
<v Speaker 3>comes to their legacy, sort of thing about Jefferson as

0:46:58.960 --> 0:47:03.440
<v Speaker 3>redrawing the bound and then Roosevelt is sort of reorganizing

0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:07.279
<v Speaker 3>internally what the West would look like in terms of

0:47:07.320 --> 0:47:13.000
<v Speaker 3>public lands and and all that. So, yeah, I don't

0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:15.440
<v Speaker 3>often think of the two of them in the same

0:47:15.760 --> 0:47:19.799
<v Speaker 3>in the same breath. But it's an interesting, Uh, it's

0:47:19.840 --> 0:47:23.879
<v Speaker 3>an interesting pair to just sort of consider the similarities

0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:24.560
<v Speaker 3>between the two.

0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think, you know, and I'm not sure exactly

0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:34.240
<v Speaker 1>when I began associating Jefferson and Roosevelt, although the West

0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:37.880
<v Speaker 1>is a common denominator for both of them. Uh, And

0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:39.840
<v Speaker 1>in a podcast like this, I mean, we sort of

0:47:39.920 --> 0:47:43.160
<v Speaker 1>started back in some of the early episodes with Jefferson

0:47:43.800 --> 0:47:47.160
<v Speaker 1>and Lewis and Clark and the expedition up the Red

0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:50.440
<v Speaker 1>River into the Southwest. So there's a there's a kind

0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:55.440
<v Speaker 1>of a natural combination there, I think. But at some point,

0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:58.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, in my thinking over the years, I began

0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:01.600
<v Speaker 1>to sort of look at American presidents and say, okay,

0:48:01.640 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 1>so among them, who were the ones who are sort

0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:09.120
<v Speaker 1>of interested in the kind of values that I'm interested

0:48:09.160 --> 0:48:16.680
<v Speaker 1>in in nature, in wilderness, in landscapes and wild animals.

0:48:17.280 --> 0:48:20.000
<v Speaker 1>And the two, of course who immediately pop to the

0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:25.200
<v Speaker 1>top of that list are Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt.

0:48:25.239 --> 0:48:28.440
<v Speaker 1>And you know, and since Roosevelt, it's difficult to really

0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:32.400
<v Speaker 1>find another American president. I mean, for one thing, we

0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:37.880
<v Speaker 1>don't have very many presidents coming from the West, where

0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:40.480
<v Speaker 1>as a result of the lifestyle we get to have

0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.800
<v Speaker 1>in the American West that you know, it's probably more

0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:47.320
<v Speaker 1>possible for someone to be interested in those kinds of subjects.

0:48:47.360 --> 0:48:51.320
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, it's almost as if Teddy Roosevelt and Thomas

0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:54.480
<v Speaker 1>Jefferson are the almost the only ones who have that

0:48:54.600 --> 0:48:57.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of concern, and so that makes them kind of

0:48:57.640 --> 0:49:01.640
<v Speaker 1>particular heroes of people who are interested in Western history.

0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:06.640
<v Speaker 3>And last question here, which dovetails nicely with that answer,

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.640
<v Speaker 3>we do often think about Roosevelt as a hero. On

0:49:10.719 --> 0:49:14.759
<v Speaker 3>the other hand, he's one of these figures, as you

0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:18.080
<v Speaker 3>point out the big controversy over his statue outside of

0:49:18.120 --> 0:49:23.520
<v Speaker 3>the American Museum of Natural History, And he's one of

0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:28.239
<v Speaker 3>those figures where I think he's obviously you can read

0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 3>things that he's written, and he espouses viewpoints and values

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:36.480
<v Speaker 3>they're at odds with my own viewpoints and values. On

0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:40.800
<v Speaker 3>the other hand, you can't help but acknowledge the tremendous

0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:45.600
<v Speaker 3>amount of good he did for wild places, wild animals

0:49:45.600 --> 0:49:48.879
<v Speaker 3>and all that. And so I don't know, I don't

0:49:48.880 --> 0:49:53.080
<v Speaker 3>know if there's necessarily a question there, but he's sort

0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:55.440
<v Speaker 3>of like an uncle where you don't really agree with

0:49:55.520 --> 0:50:00.160
<v Speaker 3>everything he says, but you don't dismiss him out of

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:05.200
<v Speaker 3>hand for for what some might chalk up todays like these,

0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:08.840
<v Speaker 3>these horrible you know, racial views things of that nature,

0:50:09.320 --> 0:50:12.520
<v Speaker 3>especially when you lump them in with characters like Madison

0:50:12.560 --> 0:50:13.160
<v Speaker 3>Grant and.

0:50:13.640 --> 0:50:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and it was unfortunate that he he blurbd

0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:20.960
<v Speaker 1>in Madison Grant some book of Course, which is a

0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:24.600
<v Speaker 1>book that a lot of people regard as an unfortunate

0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.880
<v Speaker 1>production from someone in the United States who shouldn't have

0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:32.840
<v Speaker 1>been thinking in those terms. But you know what I

0:50:32.880 --> 0:50:35.680
<v Speaker 1>will say, and I said it in the script here,

0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:39.800
<v Speaker 1>is that you you know, as someone who's interested in history.

0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:42.040
<v Speaker 1>And I know Randall you know this too, because we

0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:45.640
<v Speaker 1>used to talk about it in graduate classes. You have

0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:49.000
<v Speaker 1>to think about people in terms of the times they

0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:53.040
<v Speaker 1>live in. And I mean you can't look at someone

0:50:53.120 --> 0:50:55.920
<v Speaker 1>like Teddy Roosevelt and say, okay, so this guy, he

0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:58.680
<v Speaker 1>should be smart enough to understand the way we think

0:50:59.120 --> 0:51:03.400
<v Speaker 1>in in the twenty twenties. I mean, the truth is

0:51:04.080 --> 0:51:08.879
<v Speaker 1>a century from now, we have no idea what thoughts

0:51:08.880 --> 0:51:12.920
<v Speaker 1>and expressions and values that we have that might be

0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:18.680
<v Speaker 1>regarded as completely unsatisfactory to somebody living one hundred years

0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:22.360
<v Speaker 1>in the future, and so I have a difficult time

0:51:22.760 --> 0:51:26.080
<v Speaker 1>looking back on people like that and divorcing them from

0:51:26.120 --> 0:51:30.440
<v Speaker 1>their time and the period they're living in and trying

0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:33.440
<v Speaker 1>to evaluate them based on how we would look at

0:51:33.480 --> 0:51:35.799
<v Speaker 1>them today. It doesn't mean I'm not willing to say

0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:39.280
<v Speaker 1>things as I did in the script about the particular

0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:42.560
<v Speaker 1>statu I mean, that wasn't Teddy Roosevelt. That was you know,

0:51:43.000 --> 0:51:46.960
<v Speaker 1>other people using the Roosevelt image. But he did do

0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:50.160
<v Speaker 1>the Madison Grant thing, and he did say some unfortunate

0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:54.080
<v Speaker 1>things about what groups of people, you know, might actually

0:51:54.160 --> 0:52:00.440
<v Speaker 1>share the cultures and abilities of wild animals, And it

0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 1>wasn't you know, Western humanity and his view. It wasn't

0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:07.800
<v Speaker 1>the people who sat around the dinner table with him.

0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:11.520
<v Speaker 1>In other words, So I think that you can be

0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:14.560
<v Speaker 1>critical and understand somebody in the past, but also try

0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:19.640
<v Speaker 1>not to, you know, to just completely dismiss them. I mean,

0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:23.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that's an unfortunate thing that we've been doing recently,

0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:26.279
<v Speaker 1>and I'm encouraged a little bit by the fact that

0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:27.880
<v Speaker 1>I think we're getting to get over that.

0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:30.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there does seem to be a bit of a

0:52:30.800 --> 0:52:31.640
<v Speaker 3>bit more pause.

0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:34.200
<v Speaker 1>I think there's a bit more pause, and I think,

0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:39.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, we're trained as historians to think

0:52:39.160 --> 0:52:43.600
<v Speaker 1>in terms of history, and historicism is about doing that

0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:47.480
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing, understanding that people occupy a particular point

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:50.239
<v Speaker 1>in time, and you have to understand their time to

0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:51.680
<v Speaker 1>fully appreciate who they are.

0:52:52.560 --> 0:52:54.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, Dan, thank you. Always fun to chat Roosevelt.

0:52:54.960 --> 0:53:07.320
<v Speaker 1>It is indeed no kidding used to music music