1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Quody diamonds, but Joseph's gotten more. It was a really 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: cold morning. Matter of fact, folks around town said that 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: there would be ice that day. It was the morning 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: of January the thirtieth, sixteen forty nine, and the Head 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of State, the King of England, walked across the banqueting 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: floor in the main chamber at the Banqueting House, part 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: of Whitehall Palace in London, literally right down the road 8 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: from present day Parlament. It wasn't a normal strawl. He 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: was walking to a window, and outside of that window 10 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: there had been built a scaffold, and as he stepped 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: through the window, the cold wind cut through. He had 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: asked for extra clothing that morning so that the crowd 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: could not see him shivering, because he didn't want to 14 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: give the impression that he was afraid. For a moment, 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: he looked out over the crowd. He knew that the 16 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: crowd was so vast they'd never hear what he would 17 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: have to say. He looked at the two attendants and 18 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: the executioner told them that he was not guilty of 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: the charges of which he had been found guilty of. 20 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: And then he turned to the executioner and says when 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: I kneel down and lay my head on the block, 22 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to pray, and when I extend my arms, 23 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: that will be your signal to swing the axe. In 24 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: that one moment, Europe changed. Europe changed because it was 25 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: viewed that all power derived from God through their sovereign. 26 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: And as Charles's head rolled over the surface of that scaffold, 27 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: the executioner, wearing a homemade mask and a wig, picked 28 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: it up, displayed it to the crowd, and then tossed 29 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: it to them. In that one moment, a simple tool 30 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: was used of aheading axe weighted on one side blunt, 31 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: but on the other side a crescent shaped blade razor 32 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: sharp had cut through the neck of the Sovereign of England. 33 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: Today we're going to learn a bit more about sharp 34 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: force injuries and people die as a result of them 35 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: every day. Not just my mind arcs. I'm Joseph Scott 36 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Bodybags. I tried to find the 37 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: Banqueting House many times. I finally found it when I 38 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: was walking down the streets of London day because I'd 39 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: heard the story for years and years. A Man for 40 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: All Seasons. If you've ever seen that movie, Richard Harris 41 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: and Let's see what's his name. Alec Guinnis played the 42 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: King powerful movie. There was another generation of it that 43 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: came out with Tim Roth playing the part of Oliver Cromwell. 44 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: Can't remember who the king was, but I'd heard about 45 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: it for years and years. I'd seen the movies and 46 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: it was a seminal time. But you know, Dave, over 47 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: a long period of time in Europe, heads were rolling 48 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: off everywhere, you know, all the way up you know, 49 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: through the French Revolution, they became i think, dis settled 50 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: over the guillotine for a very short period of time 51 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: and then reinstituted it as a humane way of bringing 52 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: about death. 53 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: Okay, it seems like it's a pretty humane way, you know, 54 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 2: the guillotine. Okay, look, you know it's coming, Lay your 55 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: head down, pop, it's over. 56 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And to me it does. I think it's 57 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: the spectacle of it all. And as a matter of fact, 58 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: if you go and search last guillotine execution in France, 59 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: there is an image and it's real grainy that pops up. 60 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: A photograph was taken in a courtyard of the last 61 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: guy to be executed by guillotine in the nineteen twenties. Wow, 62 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, you can see the length of his body 63 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: and he's like laying on a board because they you 64 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: have to kind of, you know, shimmy up this and 65 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: lay there. And I don't know if they you know, 66 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: some images I've seen show them strapping you down to 67 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: this thing and whatnot. But yeah, the head would pop 68 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: right off and you've got this delivery of energy that 69 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: transfers from that back weighted blade to that fine thin 70 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: edge that has been honed down so that it's razor 71 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: sharp and it passes right through the tissue and the 72 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: bone and the musculature. But you know, that's that's an 73 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: example of what we would call an incized injury. It's 74 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: not a stab wound, obviously, and it's not a punctural 75 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: woman that's for sure. And sharp force injuries coming up 76 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: in a variety of of of styles, I guess you 77 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: would say, uh, and you can you can arrive at 78 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: them with any number of instruments that are out there. 79 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: But going back to the guillotine, because you know, we 80 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: did an entire episode on and putting people to death, 81 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: you know, and I don't understand that I'm missing something here. 82 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: You know, we have the putting them to sleep thing 83 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 2: with chemicals, right, and we've got people fighting over that. 84 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 2: One's inhumane. And then we've got the gunshot where we 85 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: had the guys miss you know, I'm firing squad. It 86 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 2: seems like, I mean, really, was there ever a failure 87 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: where the guillotine didn't actually chop the dude's head off. 88 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: I don't know about the guillotine, however, there were several 89 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: failures relative to what we'll refer to as long swords. 90 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: If you go back in time, like during the time 91 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth and I urge anybody if you've Buckingham Palace 92 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: is all cool and everything, but if you're going to 93 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: go to one royal spot in Great Britain in London, 94 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: rather make sure that you go to the Tower of London. 95 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: Because you say the Tower of London, you think it's 96 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: a standalone tower. It's not. It's a palace. And in 97 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: the courtyard there you know where the famous ravens are 98 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: that have had their wings clipped, and the beef eaters, 99 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: the soldiers retired soldiers that walk around in those really cool, 100 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: odd looking uniforms. It's still an active part of the 101 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: royal family. And that's where executions were taking place. As 102 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, where they took place, I think, 103 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: if memory serves me correctly, almost all of Henry the 104 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: Eights wives were killed there, and including Anne Boleyn. Their bodies, 105 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: as it turned out, were actually buried in the chapel 106 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: that's adjacent. We've been in the chapel and have seen 107 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: that area. And back then during that period of time, 108 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: they used long swords and there was like a severe 109 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: punishment for an executioner that did not that did not 110 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: do their task, uh, to the point where it was 111 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: a death that was met quickly. 112 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: Uh. 113 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: And one one of the things that's interesting about blade 114 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: executions is that with axes, axes and blades in Great 115 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: Britain in particular, those types of executions were considered to 116 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: be swift and painless, and they were held they were 117 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: they were set aside for those individuals that were of rank, 118 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: that were nobility. The rest of everybody would be you know, uh, 119 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: hung or drawn quartered and hung, which if you've ever 120 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: seen Brave Heart, there's a description of that. You can 121 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: see the ending scene with mel Gibson, you know, uh, 122 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: being essentially cut into small pieces. Uh. Not much of 123 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: that movie was historically based, but that part was actually true. Uh, 124 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: So you know, it's been an evolution. It's been an 125 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: evolution of these events over a long period of time. 126 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: And going back to the executions with long swords in 127 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: Great Britain, Dave the they didn't use during the time 128 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: of Elizabeth and Henry Dais. They didn't use English swordsmen. 129 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: They actually employed French swordsmen that would come over and 130 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: do the execution because they were considered to be better 131 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: at it. 132 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Kind of crazy when you start thinking about being better 133 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: at being a swordsman for cutting up ahead. You know, 134 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 2: it seems like something my son, my grandson, Braylan would 135 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: probably be pretty good at it. 136 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, wielding wielding that sword. I can't imagine 137 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: that it that it would be very fulfilling work. As 138 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, with Charles first, Uh, they had 139 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: to find somebody else to do it because you know, 140 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: this idea that all power derived from God for the 141 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: head of state, no pun intended, and the executioners refused 142 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: to do it because they felt as though that the 143 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: individual that they would be killing was appointed by God, 144 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: and so they There's been a lot of stories. No 145 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: one actually knows who the executioners were, but there was 146 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: an executioner and an assistant and they actually were paid 147 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: one hundred pounds in order to do this, and one 148 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: hundred pounds during that period of time was a monumental 149 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: fee to do this. But you have to understand whoever 150 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: decided to wield that sword did it, you know, under 151 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: penalty of pain that could come about at any moment 152 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: in time. They themselves could be killed by loyalists to 153 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: the royal family. They would be known, their families would 154 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: be known for years and years to come. So kind 155 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: of an interesting, interesting turn. But for me, when I 156 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: began as a death investigator, I think that some of 157 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: the most fascinating cases that I ever worked, Dave came 158 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: about as a result of sharp force injuries. And not 159 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: all sharp force injuries are ruled as as homicides. You know, 160 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: we think about sharp force, we think about individuals that 161 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: are being stabbed and cut and all these sort of things. 162 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's tons of those. Knives in particular, are 163 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: easy to get your hands on, people can carry them, 164 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: they're easily concealed. But for the most part, you know, 165 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: I had a lot of self inflicted injuries using knives 166 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: slashing of wrist, that sort of thing. I had one 167 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: guy that cut his throat with a straight razor to 168 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: take his own life. And then I've had tons of 169 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: accidental deaths that involved sharp force or penetrating injuries. I've 170 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: had people that have been run over by lawnmowers, had 171 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: their feet cut off, and bled to death. One case 172 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: in particular involved a guy that got caught up in 173 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: the prop of a boat. Until you have seen those 174 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: kinds of injuries, you can't really appreciate how horrific a 175 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: sharp force injury is, the way it literally, the mechanical 176 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: nature of it, the way it chews up a body. 177 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: And even if you had had with that guy with 178 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: a prop injury, even if you had had a team 179 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: of surgeons standing by, I don't think that his life 180 00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: would have been salvagable. It's important to understand that with 181 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: sharp force injuries, you you come away with an appreciation 182 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: that probably in cases of homicides next to next to 183 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: firearms related deaths, Dave, I'd have to say that sharp 184 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: force injuries are the number two. They're number two when 185 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: it comes to committing murder. And again it goes it 186 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: goes to this idea you know that we've talked about 187 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: over you know, years now that many deaths are are 188 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: rooted in some kind of relational thing. And when you 189 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: have domestic events that occur in particular and you've got 190 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: a kitchen, they're looking for access an opportunity, and one 191 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: of the you know, kind of fallback positions is I'm 192 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: going to go get the kitchen knife and I'm going 193 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: to go to work, and that's what happens many times. Wow, 194 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, Joe. 195 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: One of the things about using a knife that petrifies me, 196 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: it's not would not be my go to weapon, is 197 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: because of the idea of slipping, you know, like and 198 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: we have this all the time in stories we cover 199 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: where the person using the knife, unless they're experienced with them, 200 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: they cut themselves. And knowing how bloody scenes get when 201 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: you've got cuts going on, that'd be my one big 202 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: pay if you are not wearing gloves your hands slipping 203 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: on that knife. 204 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's a the nature of blood for me, 205 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: at least because I've had this happen in The Mork, 206 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: you know, utilizing scalpels and even needles. I've cut myself 207 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: multiple times in The Mork over the yearly. Yeah, I've 208 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: stabbed myself with needles. I've you know, and terrifying, you 209 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: know when this happens, because I came of age during 210 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: the height of the AIDS epidemic and you know, we 211 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: were always getting tested and those sorts of things, and 212 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's quite terrifying. There's something about the nature 213 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: of blood though that people think blood is like really tacky, 214 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: and it is, you know, it gets real sticky, but 215 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: there's something it's almost a fat like quality, so that 216 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: whatever you're holding onto becomes almost lubricated with blood. It's 217 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: not like water. There's a different sense to it. And so, yeah, 218 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: you're right on point. We have a lot of cases 219 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: where people will cut themselves as they're wielding some type 220 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: of sharp instrument, and of course they wind up commingling 221 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: their blood and you know, from a bigger picture of 222 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: their DNA with that of the victim. And that's one 223 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: of the reasons that if you have a suspect in 224 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: beatings and stabbings and that sort of thing, you're always 225 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: going to look at their hands to see if they 226 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: have injuries, if they're wearing, you know, some type of 227 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: bandage on your hand. G Man how'd you get that? 228 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: You know? Are you okay? Do you need a skitch 229 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: your medical help? No? No, no, no, it's it's just 230 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: a one. Hey, do you mind taking the bandage off 231 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: so we can see it? And you look at it. 232 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: It ain't healing, it's fresh. Wow. And they've never gotten 233 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: help for it, or they haven't been given help for 234 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: it because they haven't asked for it because they're trying 235 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: to disguise it. 236 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 2: That would be O. J. Simpson and his first discussion 237 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: with police after arriving back from Chicago less than twenty 238 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: four hours after the death of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. 239 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: Simpson and hey, OJ, well, what you got going on there? 240 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: On your finger? 241 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? Left cut? 242 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, on his finger. I don't know if that's you know, 243 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: just saying it just seemed obvious. But it was in 244 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 2: an odd place on the outside of the left hand. 245 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: You know. 246 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: That's what I always seem to think that it would 247 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: have to be if you if you're trying to stab 248 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: some buddy or slice I guess you know what. It's 249 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 2: not a weapon I would choose to use, so I 250 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: can't really get a good handle on how it would 251 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: be used. 252 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: No pun intended so no, and the left hand is 253 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: not an odd odd place because if you're if you're 254 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: trying to restrain somebody and holding them down with your 255 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: left hand and your right hand and you're wilding a knife, 256 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, there's that, you know, there's a high probability 257 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: you could nick yourself. And look, I mean even guys 258 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: that are special operations, people that are trained in sharp 259 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: force are uh sharp force instrument use you know, in 260 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: a combat situation there most of them, that's not their 261 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: first choice. As a matter of fact, it's generally a 262 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: last resort. They'd much rather be shooting people than trying 263 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: to go head to head with somebody with a knife. 264 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: It's it's you know, it's the the last resort that 265 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: you're going to reach down. You're going to have a 266 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: knife at your you know, at your hand to try 267 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: to keep keep people away. So I'm thinking about what's 268 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: what's the uh uh, what's the uh Clinny the case 269 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: out of Miami with the only fans mid Yeah, Courtney Clinne. 270 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: I heard a UH special operations guy talk one time 271 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: many years ago. Somebody had asked him a question about, uh, 272 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: is there any truth to people that are expert with 273 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: knives and throwing knives, and he said, why in the 274 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: world would you if that is your last weapon, why 275 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: are you going to take it and throw it at somebody? 276 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: He's like, we're going to hold onto it and we're 277 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: going to carve you up. And and I think about her, 278 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, scoring that shot in the subclave, on that 279 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: poor young man, and he bleeds out the odds of 280 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 1: that happening are slim and none, both in the sentence, 281 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: and you know, it's just it's it's it's highly implausible. 282 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: But you know, when we think about when we think 283 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: about think about sharp force injuries, here's kind of how 284 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: we examine them and the annotations that we make. First off, 285 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: with sharp force injuries, how do we define them, Well, 286 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: they're going to have clean edges. What does that mean, Morgan? 287 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: Why are you saying clean edges? Well, if you're hit 288 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: with a baseball bat and it tears the skin, that's 289 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: a laceration, and we're going to do a whole nother 290 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: lecture on blunt force trauma. Clean edges implies that you've 291 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: got a milled weapon, something that has got a mechanically 292 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: created blade with an edge on it, and when a 293 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: slice is made. If you think about slicing something, if 294 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: you look at whether it's a package you're going to 295 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: open at home with a knife, or if you're cutting 296 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: into a steak, if you look at the edges, or 297 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: as we refer to the margins, the web of the injury, 298 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 1: they're going to be clean. You're not going to have 299 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: interconnecting tissue there, so you've got this clean edge. That's 300 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: one of the first things we look for. Generally, there's 301 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: no what we refer to as ekamosis, which is a 302 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: fancy term for bruising around that area. So it's not 303 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: like somebody has been pounded on where if you pound somebody, 304 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: you've got that the blood that's leeching out into the 305 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: interstitial tissue. You're gonna have cut and it will be bleeding, 306 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: but you're not going to have this big mass of 307 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: hemorrhage around there. The one exception, though, is if you 308 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: if you have somebody that's wielding a knife and generates 309 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: a stab one and it's got like a big hilt 310 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: on it with a handguard and they drive that into 311 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: the body. I've seen the handguard generate a contusion or 312 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: create echymosis, but that's really the only time. If you're 313 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: going to use a steak knife on somebody, you're not 314 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: going to see it all right. And then again going 315 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: back to the clean edges, there's not going to be 316 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: any tissue bridging. And that's what I was referring to, 317 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: is as kind of thin little lines of tissue that 318 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: still connect one side to the other. That's something you 319 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: see in lacerations and cuts or incized injuries are not lacerations. 320 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: The medical community for years has you know, they'd love 321 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: to throw around the term, particularly an emergency or in 322 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: the term lack, which is an abbreviation for laceration. They'll 323 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: call everything a lack, and that's not the truth. That's 324 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: an incised injury. Laceration is generated by blunt force trauma. 325 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: So that's the way we basically look at them and 326 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: try to describe them. Now, So for us, there's three 327 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: groupings with with sharp force injuries. The first is going 328 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: to be a cut or an incised injury. I remember 329 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: how I mentioned about the guy that cut his throat, 330 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: you know, with a straight razor, Well, that's an incised injury. 331 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: If you've ever if you've ever been cutting something like 332 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: using a cutting board to cut up vegetables. Most of 333 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: the time you're not going to stab yourself with a 334 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: knife that you're cutting with. You're actually going to in 335 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: size a finger, and so that's this kind of linear 336 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: cut that you get that can be really nasty. And 337 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: then I think third, we've got what are referred to 338 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: as penetrating injuries, and most of the time they're going 339 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: to be a puncture. Woe. Okay, so you can have 340 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: somebody it's not a bladed instrument, but if you think 341 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: about a piece of rebar, like a piece of iron, 342 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: I've had people are an impalement, for instance, that's a 343 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: puncture one I've had. I think probably one of the 344 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: most bizarre cases I've ever had was a young man. 345 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: There were five people riding in a car in New 346 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: Orleans and a guy was driving. They were in bucket 347 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: seats in the front seat. Guy was driving, his girlfriend 348 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: was in the front passenger. There were two girls sitting 349 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: in the back seat and a dude sitting in the 350 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: center between the two women. And this guy was drunk 351 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: that was driving. The car ran off of the service 352 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: road running next to I ten and hit the chain 353 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: link fencing and the support post for the chain link 354 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: fencing began feeding through the car and it hit this 355 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: guy right in the center of his forehead. I remember 356 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: we had to go almost ten yards back with a 357 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: seedtling torch and cut out that core sample of his 358 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: skin skull, brain and skull and skin and had a 359 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: little patch of hair. I'll never forget it had a 360 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: little patch of hair on it. It actually taken a 361 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: core sample out of his head. That's a puncture wound, 362 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and that's that's how it would be, you know, be classified. 363 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: So those are the three. 364 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you understand I'm going to have to see 365 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: that for myself. Do you bring that into court? I 366 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 2: want to see it. 367 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: Well, I think it was brought into court, and it's 368 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: certainly in a civil action because I think I think 369 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: that that insurance company was in fact suit. And we 370 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in medical examiner's offices. We 371 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: probably spent as probably more time in civil court giving 372 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: depositions and that sort of thing than we ever do 373 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: in criminal court because there's so much that arises in 374 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: insurance claims. Uh so, yeah, those are like, you know, 375 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: kind of the three big categories. You know that that 376 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: we come up with stab wounds in particular are are 377 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: quite fascinating. And I've used this term before. I want 378 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: to throw it out to those that haven't heard me 379 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: say it when we're trying to identify by stab wounds. 380 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: I was taught by a friends that collage years ago 381 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: that was this kind of salty old fella, and he said, 382 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: always look for the winking eye. And I've used that 383 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 1: term forever. And when you see a stab wound, you 384 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: know where the instrument is not in place, it's been withdrawn. 385 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: When you look at a single edged weapon or the 386 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: injury that's left behind by a single edged weapon, it'll 387 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: come to a sharp point where the actual edge of 388 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: the blade is and then it's more blunted on the 389 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: other side, because that's like the backstrap of the of 390 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: the knife, and if you look at it long enough, 391 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: it looks like an eye that's squinting. And he always 392 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: told me, you know, look for the winking eye. And 393 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: when you roll up on a scene and you're trying 394 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: to examine a body and they've got I've had cases where, 395 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, people have had fifty and sixty stab wounds 396 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: all over the bodies. I think the most I've ever 397 00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: had was well above two hundred on one person because 398 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: because once somebody get well, I certainly didn't count a lap, right, Yeah, yeah, 399 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of overlap I didn't count them obviously 400 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: at the scene. But once the body is undressed and 401 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: the body is washed at back at the morgue, right 402 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: before you're going to do the autops you have to 403 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: track all these wounds. So, you know, we would actually 404 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: use probes to insert into the injuries and photograph it 405 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: to give an idea of the literally the path of 406 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: the wound. And they're they're fascinating to see, but you 407 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: you kind of get tired, you know, when you're having 408 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: to enumerate all these things. You you know, you see 409 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: in movies and whatnot, many times people being shot multiple 410 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: times shooting. Tracking wounds with firearms related desks is IS 411 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: can be tedious. However, stab wounds in particular, because it's 412 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: almost like when people get started stabbing, they don't want 413 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: to stop. They it's all. It almost reminds me of 414 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: my grandma's old Singer sewing machine. You know, the needle 415 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: that's going up and down, you know, and it's only 416 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: the needle moves with this, it's all over the place 417 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: and they're randomized, and then you'll have stab wounds that 418 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: are blended within sized wounds, particularly if you've got an 419 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: event where someone is attempting to disfigure somebody, where they're 420 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: trying to mark up their face in some way. You 421 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: know the old adage, if I can't have you, no 422 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: one will have you. You know, you have people and 423 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: we've covered Oh, my lord, Dave, I don't know how 424 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: many cases of dismemberment just in the last two years. 425 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 1: You know, where you've got bodies that are you know, 426 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: you'll have you know, events where people will have ears removed, 427 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: noses removed. Actually had a case, a drug case one 428 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: time where God had his testicles removed and placed on 429 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: the bed next to him, and you couldn't see it 430 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: when you arrived at the scene. All you saw were 431 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: these two ovoid shapes that were lying and had been 432 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: padded down so they didn't have a lot of blood. 433 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: But when you pull the comforter back, the bed is 434 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: just like super saturated with blood underneath him, whereas testicles 435 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: had been removed. And that was in the middle of 436 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: a game war that that had happened. Never seen anything 437 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: like that. It's quite amazing. The one troubling part of 438 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: that was this. There was an EMT that was still 439 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: at the scene, and he looked at us as we're 440 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: standing there, and he sees those two ovoid objects laying 441 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: on the bed and quietly says, are those his eyes? 442 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: And I remember saying to him, where does your ambulance operate? 443 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: Because I don't want to be anywhere near you if 444 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: you're going to. 445 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: Out thinking of his man, Joe, think about the meeting. Okay, 446 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: all right, guys, got at it end with this other gang. 447 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: We're going to take it to them after you've destroyed everything, 448 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: after you've taken their money, after you have taken and 449 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: they're all dead before you leave. Here's your initiation. This 450 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: is the new guy. Here's what you're gonna do. You 451 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: know who comes up with this? And I have what 452 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: bobbles my mind? Joe, is there a people who want 453 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: to be part of that? I think I'd like to 454 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: be in a gang. I think I'd really like to 455 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: be in a drug gang. That's that's what I want 456 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: to do. I think, you know what, it sounds like 457 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 2: a fun thing to do. Well, here, take a look 458 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 2: at this picture, because this is you in about six months. 459 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you, you know, infamously, there's 460 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: there's the old and I've never seen one myself. I've 461 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: had people claim they've seen them from and again, this 462 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: is reaching back into history here with the drug wars 463 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: that went on back in the eighties with the Colombian 464 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: the infamous Colombian necktie where they would slice the underneath 465 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: of the chin and pull the tongue out through the 466 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: base of the floor of of of the you know, 467 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: the soft palette they would pull it down. That's actually 468 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: size in that area. Yeah, I think it's possible, No, 469 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: because I mean, we remove tongues at autopsy all the time. 470 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, if you're going to do 471 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: a thorough autopsy, tongue comes out. We used to refer 472 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: to it as tongues, tongue tongue to testicles. It's the 473 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: way we would refer to it. And that's particularly if 474 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: you're doing an on block dissection. 475 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 2: Two things that I think I would really like to 476 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 2: do with you, Yeah, one would be to get you 477 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: drunk and have you telling stories and report it all. 478 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 2: And the other is to get you with a couple 479 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 2: of your favorite fellas and start sharing war stories. You know, 480 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: that I can just record because I'm telling you there's 481 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 2: a TV show waiting to happen. 482 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: Well there is, and you know it's sometimes you have 483 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: to try to block all this stuff out of your mind, 484 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: and you do want to particularly block out sharp force injuries, 485 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, friends, out of all 486 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: of the injuries that you encounter in the field, sharp 487 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: force injuries stay with you forever and ever. We're all 488 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: about defining things in forensics, and the reason is is 489 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: that if you're involved in sciences, you have to have 490 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: an understanding of the data that you're trying to assess. 491 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: And I know people think of data from the perspective 492 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: of maybe information systems computers, but no, I mean we 493 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: collect data too. We collect data in the field and 494 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: we collect data at autopsy. And so let me just 495 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: give you a brief rundown of injury characteristics, just so 496 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: you can frame this out in your brain, particularly if 497 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: you're watching some true crime story or you're hearing about 498 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: something on a podcast somewhere. Even though we'd appreciate if 499 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: you listen to Body Bags, but we know that you 500 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: listen to other ones. So let's just kind of go 501 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: through these real quick cuts or in sized injuries tend 502 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: to be longer than deep. There's the old adage, I 503 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: think it might be from the Bard, death by a 504 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: thousand cuts. And what he meant by that, or what 505 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: they meant by that, is that you can slice somebody 506 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: multiple times and it takes a longer period of time 507 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: for them to die. Okay, so death by a thousand cuts, 508 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: and of course that's an alliteration to something else. But 509 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: then you have stab wounds, and stab wounds tend to 510 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: be deeper than long. So just because somebody is stabbed 511 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they're going to die if it's a 512 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: single stab wound, because there's no guarantee that you're going 513 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: to hit a vital organ, or that even if you 514 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: do hit a vital organ, that it's going to be 515 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: a terminal event. Okay, because there are people out there 516 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: that have had their lungs punctured and got on quite 517 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: well afterwards. And then we think about puncture wounds and 518 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: puncture wounds as a classification. The one thing you have 519 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is that many times they very 520 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: well might imitate gunshot wounds, because most of the time 521 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: they're round, circular defects in the body. And I know 522 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: I've referred to rebar a lot, and rebar is something 523 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: you saw on the streets a lot with the homeless, 524 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: because they could take it, file down one end of it, 525 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: make a shive or a shank out of it, like 526 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: it's used in prison, and wrap one side with duct 527 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: tape and carry it in there in their pocket. And 528 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: I've had cases where people have been stabbed multiple times 529 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: with a piece of rebar and it looks just like 530 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: they sustained center mass gunshot onnes multiple times in the chest. 531 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: And if you didn't know that it was something other 532 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: than as advertised, you might say, yeah, this is a 533 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: multiple gunshot one case. So that's kind of the brief rundown. 534 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: But Dave, you know, we've had, actually, you know, I wish, 535 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: I wish I had them at my fingertips right now, 536 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: the number of of dismemberment cases we've actually covered. But 537 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: we actually did, I think a couple of years ago, 538 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: we did a special, a special show on at Crime. 539 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: Con because we'd had so many stories. 540 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: So many stories, and look, just because these people are 541 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: dismembered doesn't mean that that was their cause of death. 542 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: And I think in most cases it was not. You know, 543 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: you had people that were shooting individuals, you had people 544 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: that were suffocating or choking people out. And then yeah, 545 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: and then they're just trying to get rid of a body. 546 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: But what we have covered in the past, I know, 547 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: and one of my I you know, I don't know. 548 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: I'm not one of these people that say, well, they're 549 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: all like my children. They're not. These episodes are not 550 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: what a ghastly family. Uh. But one of my favorite 551 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: episodes is our Julius Caesar episode. 552 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 2: I love more in that episode than I mean in 553 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 2: a purely educational sense. I encourage everyone listen to that 554 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 2: because it wasn't that like one of the. 555 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: First you know, it was the very first documented autopsy 556 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: and it was his private, private physician that had done it. 557 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: And you know, Caesar was stabbed multiple times, I think 558 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 1: upwards of twenty if I'm not mistaken, when they all 559 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: kind of they loved, they used to love, to use 560 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: that term, when they all fell upon them with their 561 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: daggers and began to stabing. And you know, we learned 562 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: in that that there was probably an attempt to emasculating 563 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: emasculate him. They had many of those stab wounds that 564 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: he had sustained were in the groin area, which you know, 565 00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: if you're an emperor, that's one of the things that 566 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: you would try to do to try to demonstrate your robbering, 567 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: robbing him of his manpower and of his pa and 568 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: and of his ability to rule effectively and being able 569 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: to track those wounds and understand what he went through, 570 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: and he had an awareness. He actually cried out. And 571 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: of course you know there's the old and I think, 572 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: uh Shakespeare made this popular, you know when he did 573 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: play Julius Caesar at two brute uh, you know YouTube 574 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: brutus and Bruce was like his his best friend. What 575 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: was really probably said was my child, why are you 576 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: doing this? And because he you know, for whatever reason, 577 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: he didn't understand maybe you should have why you know 578 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: this was occurring. But you know, these go back forever 579 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: and ever. There have been, you know, cases of people 580 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: being stabbed and brutalized. I go back. We did an 581 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,720 Speaker 1: episode on the King and the car Park with Richard 582 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: the Third, you know, where they discovered his body and 583 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: he had been brutalized after death, but he had sustained 584 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: a sharp force injury to the back of the skull. 585 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: It was. As a matter of fact, it was probably 586 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: a Halbert that did it, which is kind of one 587 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: of these long pike looking things that's got a blade 588 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: on it and it's meant to you do it in 589 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: cavalry charges and you can slice whether it's kind of 590 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: a crescent shaped blade. 591 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 2: It's a crazy looking weapon, is what it is. 592 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: It's a nightmare, man. 593 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 2: It's an absolute yet it's it's like death at the 594 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 2: end of a stick. 595 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And you know, they they shaved 596 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: off you know, essentially like the parietal and into the 597 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: occipital area of his of his skull, and it exposed 598 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: his brain, so you know, and that's that's something that 599 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: that was quite remarkable. But interestingly enough, you know, Dave 600 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: he had a puncture woe too, because when they had 601 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: him trust over a horse after death and they saw 602 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 1: evidence of this on his pelvis, on his pubis. I 603 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: think someone had taken There's a dagger that is used 604 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: in battle with helmeted soldiers back during the time, and 605 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: it's foresighted and they would take this thing and hold 606 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: it over ahead and drive it through because it would 607 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: actually penetrate armor. And some of the scientists believed that 608 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,320 Speaker 1: this thing was done to desecrate his body. This puncture 609 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 1: wound was inserted, you know, between his legs as he 610 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: was trussed over this horse where they were going back 611 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: into town with his body. Who else had well Sharon 612 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: Tate for instance, Tate LaBianca murders, vicious killing, she stabbed 613 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: multiple times. She's pregnant and no, yeah, and no they 614 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: did not, you know, remove the baby the scene. That 615 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: did not happen. But she's pleading for a life. Please, 616 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, don't don't kill me. I have a baby. 617 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 1: And again, very brutal blood deposition all over that scene, 618 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: which is something that you see consistently in sharp force 619 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: injury cases where you will have super saturated areas in 620 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: the floor all about the place where people have had 621 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: great harm done to them. And it can be even 622 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, like I mentioned earlier, it can be even 623 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: slices in sized areas. Yeah, they're not deep, but you're 624 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: bleeding out because all of these vessels have been you know, 625 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: have been compromised. 626 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question about the tape murder. Yeah, 627 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 2: Sharon Tate, Okay, because you had a group of individuals. 628 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 2: There wasn't just one on one. There were several. There 629 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 2: was a bunch of people there that night. Yeah, but 630 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 2: you had a gun used on the kids sitting out 631 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: front when they when they first came out of text 632 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: watching and shoots one of the guys in the car, 633 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: Stephen Parent I think it was his name anyway, Yeah, 634 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 2: he gets shot. But then inside the house, you know, 635 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 2: it's knives and chasing down Voytech Praikowski to stab ing 636 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 2: Abigail Folger. They chased her fifty yards and stabbed her 637 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: multiple times. I mean, just this constant hacking of people. 638 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 2: Sharon Tate again, almost a tortured time, you know, of 639 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 2: killing of her, begging for the life of her unborn child. 640 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 2: Jay Sebring was there because he was still in love 641 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 2: with Sharon Tate even though she had married Roman Polanski. 642 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 2: But then they tied a rope to the neck of 643 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 2: Sharon and dropped it over a beam and tied it 644 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 2: to Jay Sebring. A lot of it was for show. 645 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 2: But are many times when a crime is taking place, 646 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 2: don't they just stay with one method of destruction, meaning 647 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 2: a knife. There's not usually a blurring. 648 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. Well, if you have multiple 649 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,240 Speaker 1: if you have multiple actors, bad actors at a scene, 650 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: they might show up with whatever makes them feel comfortable. 651 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: Tex Watson preferred to have this revolver with him, you know, 652 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: and he and if I remember correctly, he handed out 653 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: in ives. Remember what they said, and they even use 654 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: this quote. I think Tarantino lifted this for once upon 655 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: a time in Hollywood. Manson had told them to make 656 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: it look witchy is the term that they had used. 657 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: And of course they famously wrote and I can't remember 658 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: was it pigs I think on the wall pigs and rise, 659 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: you know which obviously we just have covered Jeffrey McDonald. 660 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: I think I probably failed to mention this, but in 661 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: their home at Fort Bragg, the word pigs was written 662 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: in there too, again echoing the Manson murders that had taken. 663 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 2: Which, by the way, there was an article in Esquire 664 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 2: magazine in Jeffrey McDonald's living room right next to the 665 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 2: counch he was sitting on that had been opened to 666 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 2: an article about the Manson family murders, and it mentioned 667 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,359 Speaker 2: the word pig being written in blood. That was one 668 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 2: of the things that tied Jeffrey McDonald to that crime, 669 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 2: where they were like, well, dude, wait a minute, you 670 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 2: know you've got it right from here. 671 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that there's wild hits off running all over 672 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: the place. Yeah, and that was still fear. And I 673 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: think that, you know, the McDonald's case had occurred prior 674 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 1: to them affecting an arrest in the Tate Lobiyanca cases. 675 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,439 Speaker 1: It was for a lot of the info. 676 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 2: Actually McDonald was February seventeenth of nineteen seventy. You had 677 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 2: the Tate Lobyanca murders in August August sixty nine, but 678 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 2: the arrest came in October November. It was kind of 679 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 2: scattered before it all came together. The prosecution of that 680 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 2: case was much later. You know, it took time, so 681 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 2: I'm not sure the exact dates. I was a little kid, 682 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 2: but yeah, it was. It was enough that there was 683 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 2: information coming out, but copycat stuff was going on, and 684 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: that's where the whole McDonald thing got in. 685 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 1: And you know, you think about, well, if you're going 686 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 1: to go in and commit a mass killing. By the way, 687 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: they didn't know that they the Manson family. They didn't 688 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: know that the Polanski's were occupying that space. They thought 689 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: that it was still the beach boy guy, I think, 690 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: the manager. 691 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 2: And actually they thought it was Doris Day's. 692 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: Son, doors STA's son, that's right, Terry. 693 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 2: Melcher's home at Colo Drive, and Terry it was the 694 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 2: one who had actually had Charlie Manson come in and 695 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,760 Speaker 2: play a song and went out and heard him because 696 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 2: Manson had this idea that he was going to be 697 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 2: this big rock star, and Terry Melcher went out and 698 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 2: hurt him and went, I don't think so, but Dennis 699 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 2: Wilson had befriended him. And as a matter of fact, 700 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 2: you know, the Beach Boys recorded a Manson song. 701 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 1: Do you know that they did? I forgot they did. 702 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: So you know, you've got this place out of all 703 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: the places, you know, they show up and these four 704 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: people are just there totally, you know, just hanging out 705 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: in This poor kid out in the car. He was 706 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: just a random kid with a trends of radio that 707 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: he was. 708 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, trying to sell a radio to the kid to 709 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 2: live there. Just two guys doing guy stuff. 710 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. But when you think about the Manson 711 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 1: I think probably the Manson killings were famously, for years, 712 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: the most prominent when it came to sharp force injuries. 713 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 1: People thinking about it, because you know, they did that 714 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:32,760 Speaker 1: ridiculous movie that was based on Bugelosi's Helter Skelter, which 715 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know, he's full of it in the 716 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: first place, and then. 717 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 2: The way he also wrote a book about Kennedy assassination 718 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 2: that says Oswald did it just so yeah. 719 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: I know, and again he's full of crap. But you know, 720 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 1: in that movie, I think that they actually portrayed a 721 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: serving fork being inserted into the stomach and it infamously 722 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 1: bounces up and down, and it's some of the stuff 723 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: is absolutely ridiculous. Trust me, the scenes are horrific enough 724 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: when it comes to sharp force's injuries and you know 725 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: kind of what is revealed to you in these environments, 726 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: and it is literally, you know, as old as time 727 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to sharpforce's injuries because you don't know 728 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 1: what form they're going to come in, you don't know 729 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 1: what instrument might be used. In many ways, I think 730 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: that it's probably easier for us to ascertain firearms related 731 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: deaths and the origins of the projectiles than it is 732 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: relative to knives. So sharp force injuries, again some of 733 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: the most difficult cases to interpret. But it's something that 734 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: we do in the medical legal community every single day. 735 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: It's something that we view and here's what we can 736 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: take away. We can get an idea of the relationship. 737 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: And I don't mean like in a societal sense. I'm 738 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: talking about a physical relationship between the perpetrator and the victim. 739 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: We understand that they were very close. We understand that 740 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: there can be transfer of evidence. We understand that it's 741 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: going to be very brutal, and generally the more stabs 742 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: or cuts that a victim has, the more passion comes 743 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 1: along with it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 744 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: body Bags