1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,479 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,799 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode sixty nine, which is 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: first airing in late November. We'll be talking with our 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: guest Kathleen Burns about making partner at a major law 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: firm while raising a whole slew of small children. So 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: looking forward to all we're going to learn from that. 15 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: But lots of stuff going on in our lives. Big 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: stuff going on in Sarah's life is that she is 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: moving WOA, yes, yes, tell us about that. We not 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: going that far. So this isn't one of those like 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: exciting horizon changing moves across the ocean or something like that. 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: So my husband has decided to pursue an opportunity in 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: a different health system, which happens to be the house 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: system where I work. He will not be at the 23 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: same hospital where I am, but the location is such 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: that they are both approximately thirty minutes north of where 25 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: we currently live, and therefore it makes a lot more 26 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: sense for us to live up there rather than down here. 27 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: So up there is still quite south. We're thinking about 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: the Fort Lauderdale suburb type of areas. We're not even 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: sure where exactly at this juncture, but we are going 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: to be moving away from Miami Beach, which is really 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: a bittersweet. I mean, you know, there are some upsides. 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: We will both have less commute. Well, he will actually 33 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: probably have more commute because his current commute was like 34 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: five minutes, but I will have significantly less commute. We 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: will have more house for the money because it's this 36 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: much cheaper real estate market. The communities are a bit 37 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: less congested in a way, although I loved the walkability 38 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: of where we currently are. On the downside, you know, 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: we won't have family within a stone's throw like we 40 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: currently do, so that's going to be really sad. You know, 41 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: currently we could run into his aunt on a morning 42 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: run and I see his dad walking the dog in 43 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: the morning, and you know, it'll be really sad to 44 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: lose that and being able to walk to family gatherings. 45 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: And I'm also very sad to lose the school, the 46 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: preschool where Annamel and Cameron were from ages like two 47 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: to five. Gena. Peopleon't get to experience that place and 48 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: it was really wonderful. So yeah, just a lot. Our 49 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: current plan is that instead of listing our house while 50 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: we're still living in it, so that we'd have the 51 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: pressure of having to you know, get out frequently. We 52 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: are uh, yes, there is background noise. Hold us a second. 53 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, she's like, you can hear that. Yeah, okay, 54 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: where should I start from it? So why don't you 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: just say, why don't you say, like lots of logistics 56 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: or okay, they'll have to So whoever is splicing this, 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: just splice this in with my ups and downs. Make 58 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: it sound as smooth as you can. Thank you. So, 59 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: lots of logistics. We are planning on moving in with 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 1: my in laws for a few months. Uh probably we're 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: like six months until the end of the school year, 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: so our kids can finish school here and that way 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: we don't have to live in them in our house 64 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: while we're trying to sell it. So just a lot 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: of unknowns. That is that is the worst is living 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: in the house while you're trying to sell it. I mean, 67 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: obviously you have to in some situations, most situations, probably, 68 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: but trying to keep it clean, trying to like, you know, 69 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: make it be like you're not there. It's just exactly 70 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: having to get out of it, like potentially, like in 71 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: the middle of Geneviev's nap okay, we have to vacate. 72 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: Like so, I think this will be much better and 73 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: we're very appreciative that this isn't an option for us. Josh, 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: you guys are in a pretty good market. Like you said, 75 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: it's a small contained area. Like if somebody wants to 76 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: live in that area, there's only so many houses they 77 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: can get. So if you're on the market, I think 78 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: you're you're well placed, right, I guess. I mean it 79 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: depends to anyone listening. Look to relocate to Miami Beach. 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: Let me tell you my house is the best house. 81 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: You can email me for details. It's yeah, exactly, Yeah, 82 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: that's a well, it's moving is hard. I mean, I 83 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: think it'd be nice to have more space. I know 84 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: that's something you've been concerned about in terms of the 85 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: kids sharing rooms. Not that that's a bad thing, but yeah, 86 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: it worked out okay. But it's such a steep change 87 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: in cost per square foot that we feel like it's 88 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: probably worth just getting a room so Jenevieve can have 89 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: a room and potentially even an office to allow for 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: a little bit more focused work for my husband or 91 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: me during you know, times of when all three kids 92 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: are home. Yeah. Well, but just I mean thinking, I've 93 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: been thinking about your schedule and in terms of when 94 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: you're losing the pumping and you're gaining back half an 95 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: hour on the commute, like life was just going to 96 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: have this huge chunk of margin in it that it doesn't. 97 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't have. Now, it's kind of exciting to think 98 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: about where this is hour a day we'll be going. 99 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: That's a nice way of thinking about it. We will 100 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: find out, I will update everyone. I'll have to do 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: some pre and post time tracking. Yeah, no, it sounds great. Well, 102 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: I think we're ready to transition to our guest. Well, 103 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: we're very excited to have Kathleen Burns as our guest today. 104 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: Kathleen is a partner at Nixon Peabody, which is a 105 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: law firm. She is also the mom of four, so 106 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: a lot going on in her life. So, Kathleen, thanks 107 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: for being on. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners. Yeah, 108 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited 109 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: to be here chatting with you guys. So, yeah, as 110 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned that, I am the mom of four. I have. 111 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: My kids are seven, five, three, and one. I have 112 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: three boys and a girl. My daughter is the three 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: year old. And I am a lawyer at Nixon PB SO. 114 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: We are a global one hundred firm. We have sixteen 115 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: offices all over the US and abroad. I am based 116 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: in the Boston office, which is our firm's largest office, 117 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: and I am a partner in the Complex Commercial Disputes Group, 118 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: which means that I am a litigator. So I spend 119 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: a lot of my time working with clients who are 120 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: involved in lawsuits in state and federal court related to 121 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: their businesses. And I also spend a lot of my 122 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: time with clients who do not want to get involved 123 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: in lawsuits, counseling them about disputes or challenges that they 124 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: might have with respect to their business or any government 125 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: investigations and work with them so that they do not 126 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: end up in the courtroom. Well, I am absolutely impressed 127 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: with all of that, particularly the fact that you've managed 128 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: to do all this while having so many children in 129 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: such a short time. So, I mean, I'm sure our 130 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: read our listeners are curious as well, so a lot 131 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: of our questions are going to center around that. But 132 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: let's just pause. We have twenty months to seven years. 133 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: So that was four children within a six year timeframe. 134 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: Five and a half year, Yeah, six and a half, 135 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, my oldest was six and a half, 136 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: five and a half when my youngest was born, Yeah, 137 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: five and a half when my youngest. Wow, yeah, and 138 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: you grew up at a big family yourself, right, I did. Yeah. 139 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: So I am the oldest of six kids. And it's funny. 140 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: I always knew that I wanted to be to have 141 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,239 Speaker 1: a big family. I loved being part of a big family, 142 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, for the most part. But it's funny. I 143 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: thought that as the oldest of six, I kind of 144 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: thought of myself as like a second mom. I thought 145 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: I did such a great job taking care of my 146 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: siblings and helping my mom out. And it's funny that 147 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: now I realize the totally overestimated how helpful I was 148 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: and how much I did help my mom, because I think, 149 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's only when you become a parent you 150 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: realize how much work it is to be a parent. 151 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: So now I have a real appreciation for everything that 152 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: my mom did while we were growing up. But even 153 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: you know, still I just I love being part of 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: a big family. I love that chaos, you know, something 155 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: that makes me happy. So I'm thrilled that I've been 156 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: able to have these four kids and that I've been 157 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: able to keep working while I've been doing it. And 158 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: did you know you always wanted to be a lawyer 159 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: as well? Or did that develop later? I did. I 160 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: don't know that I knew exactly what kind of law 161 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to practice or what specifically I wanted to do. 162 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of lawyers in my family. My 163 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: grandfather was a lawyer. He was sort of your classic 164 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: small town lawyer in a little town in New York 165 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: that everybody knew, everybody really respected him. I used to 166 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: go into his office with him. My uncles are lawyers, 167 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: so that was something I was always interested in, and 168 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: so everybody I knew in college said well, you should 169 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: try it before you actually go to law school. So 170 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: I decided to work as a paralegal when I graduated 171 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: from college. I did that for a year and I said, Yep, 172 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: this is it, this is what I want to do, 173 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: despite all the people who I worked with who told me, 174 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: are you sure you really want to be a lawyer 175 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: and do you want to think about something else? But 176 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: I did that for a year and I really liked it, 177 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: so I went on to law school after that. Why 178 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: do you think that is I mean, why do you 179 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: think people were really telling you think hard about this? 180 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: Because we've had questions about this in the past where 181 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: people who are considering going to law school, and I 182 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: know a lot of people are wary of But why 183 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: do you think that is? Well, I think, you know, 184 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is loans. I think 185 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: that a lot of people take out huge amounts of 186 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: money to go to law school, and the question is 187 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: how long has that take you? How long is that 188 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: going to take to pay those loans back? But I 189 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: think it's also just this perception that people have of 190 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: the profession as being one where you have to work 191 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: tons and tons of hours and part of that, I 192 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: think is that traditionally lawyers feel by the hour, and 193 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: so the more hours you build all the more money 194 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: they make traditionally, and I think that that is really changing. 195 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: Companies are doing a lot of different billing models, a 196 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: lot of different arrangements besides that billing model, the hourly billing. 197 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: But I think that is something that really discourages some 198 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: people from going to law school or becoming a lawyer 199 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: because they just pict sure those long hours, which you 200 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: know can be true in some cases but not necessarily 201 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: in all cases. And did you go straight to your 202 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: firm out of law school or did you move around? 203 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: I did know. I am a lifer. I have been here. 204 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: I did an internship at Nixon Peavity when I was 205 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: in law school. So most law firms will take on 206 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: a big class of summer associates, they call them their 207 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: second year after law school, and then at the end 208 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: of that summer they decide to make offers to those 209 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: summer associates to become full time associates. So that's what 210 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: I did. I've been here. I graduated law school in 211 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven and I've been here since then. 212 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: Well that's really really cool. But you know, I know 213 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: that your firm has definitely been working on electing more 214 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: women partners, but I'm guessing when you started there, there 215 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: were probably fewer than there are now, and maybe not 216 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: as many examples as one might you know, want to see, 217 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: and particularly women with lots of children. And so I'm curious, 218 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: did you wonder whether it would be possible to make 219 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: partner if this was something that's going to be really difficult, 220 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: Like how did you view that when you were first 221 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: starting out. I did. I definitely wondered if this was 222 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: something that would be possible. And we do have a 223 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: great number there are some really great women partners at 224 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: this firm. A bunch of them have small children. There's 225 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: a lot of male partners here who have small children, 226 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: and of course a lot of people who remember what 227 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: it was like to have small children. But that's definitely 228 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: something that I thought about a lot, especially as I 229 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: started having kids of my own, and you know, I wondered, 230 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: what is the best path for me. So one of 231 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: the things I think our firm does a great job 232 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: with is identifying, you know, the circumstances or the environment 233 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: that each attorney will will succeed in and so there's 234 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: a lot of different paths. Not necessarily, you know, you've 235 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: got to work for X number of years and then 236 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: you either become a partner or you leave. Right, We 237 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: have a lot of different paths or attorneys to be successful. 238 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: And there was a time when I had, you know, 239 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: probably two kids in life was getting pretty crazy that 240 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: I wondered, you know, is my path going to be 241 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: one towards partnership or is my path going to be 242 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: one that's on a different track. And there are a 243 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: lot of people here who have some really interesting arrangements 244 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: and do some really interesting work, and I thought maybe 245 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: that was something I might be better suited to. But 246 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: you know, the more I thought about it, I thought 247 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: I can do this. I can do what these partners 248 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: are doing, maybe with just fewer clients. And so I 249 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: talked with my men, and I talked with the leadership 250 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: here and they were really, really supportive. So I was 251 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: able to work on a part time schedule with a 252 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: flex time schedule, and you know, it's been possible, and 253 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: I think it's been a really successful arrangement. So you 254 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: were able to be part time while still remaining on 255 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: the partnership track. Yes, yep, Is that unusual from the 256 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: firm or is that actually something that's happening more. You know, 257 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: I think it's happening more. I have some friends at 258 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: other firms who have done a similar thing. But it's 259 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: definitely the reaction that I get is yours as Wow, 260 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was an option, And honestly, 261 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if I really knew if it was 262 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: an option starting out. It was something that I had 263 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,719 Speaker 1: to ask about. And there are other people at our 264 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: firm who have done it. It's not just me. There's 265 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: other people that have had part time arrangements who have 266 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: made partner while on that part time track. So other 267 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: people have definitely done it and been successful in a 268 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: variety of models. But I do think it's something that 269 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: people are doing more and more. But I also hear 270 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: that surprise from others at other firms that that is 271 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: something that our firm has been really amenable to, because 272 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: I think people are curious about the practicalities of it, 273 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: because I mean, one of the things in any service 274 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: firm that making partner is about is showing that you 275 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: can bring in clients and bring in a certain book 276 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: of business that will sustain the firm, and I say, 277 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: I imagine people are like, well, how are you making 278 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: those numbers if you're not billing the full quantity of time? 279 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: So how does that practically work? Is there a different 280 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: level of what you need to bring in or is 281 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: there a sort of different expectation if you're on a 282 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: part time tract? Just how does that work? Yeah? So 283 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: I am currently at a seventy five percent schedule. So 284 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: what that means is that my requirements or my goals 285 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: for how many hours I bill and how much business 286 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm bringing in or seventy five percent of your typical 287 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: full time part and my compensation is then seventy percent 288 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: of that full time compensation. So as a practical matter, 289 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: really it means that I just take on fewer cases. 290 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: It's not something that's easily quantifiable by you know, a 291 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: number of hours in the office or days of the 292 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: week that I work, although there's a certain you know, 293 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: there's certain parameters that I try to work around. But 294 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: as a practical matter, it just means that I work 295 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: on fewer cases and that I my goals for bringing 296 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: in business are are slightly reduced than those of somebody 297 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: who's working full time. That makes sense from my perspective, 298 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: since I do something sort of similar in medicine. But 299 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: I'm very curious how you do. I mean, I think 300 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: our listeners are be interested to in the details of like, 301 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: so what does that mean? Do you take one full 302 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: day off? Do you plan on leaving early? And with 303 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: law I would expect it's not something that's all that 304 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: easily compartmentalizable. So I'm very curious about how you kind 305 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: of protect yourself from bleeding, you know, seventy to eighty 306 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: to nine. Oops, I'm working full time or more again, Yeah, 307 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: it's funny that you say that. I think when I 308 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: first came back from my first maternity leave, I had 309 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: this view that my life and my work would be 310 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: very compartmentalized, and I tried a number of different schedules, 311 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: like come in early and leave early so that I 312 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: could spend time with my son in the afternoons. I 313 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: was off on Fridays. I sort of tried a number 314 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: of different, more rigid schedules, and I think part of 315 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: that was due to the fact that I was junior. 316 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: I was a fourth year associate at that point in time, 317 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: so I had a little bit less control over my 318 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: schedule and now I think it's really a lot more fluid. 319 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: So I'll give you an example of a typical week 320 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: for you know, to the extent that any week is typical. 321 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: But what I'll do is I will try to go 322 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: in super early on Monday morning and come home, you know, 323 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: in time for dinner and bedtime and bedtime and all 324 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: of that. I will work generally a full long day 325 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: on Tuesday. This is an idea that my friend Kelly 326 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: gave me to really load up on a really long 327 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: day at the beginning of the week that I can 328 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: just kind of power through all of my work that requires, 329 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, big chunks of concentration and focus. So I'll 330 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: take a really long day on Tuesday. Wednesday, I'll try 331 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: to work from home, and I will try to save 332 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: tasks that are you know, can be done in smaller 333 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 1: time periods, so it's responding to emails getting smaller things done, 334 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: so I can also participate in dropping off my kids 335 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: and picking up the kids, getting them off the bus, 336 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: things like that, and then I'll be in the office 337 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: again for a full day. I think generally a long 338 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: day on Thursday where I kind of wrap everything up 339 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: and then I try to be home and primarily with 340 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: the kids on Friday. So you know, of course it 341 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: never really works out exactly like that, and you know, 342 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: things bleed into one another, but in a perfect you know, 343 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: in a typical week, that's sort of what it looks like. 344 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: I love that. I love that you've kind of over 345 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: time honed a basic and then template that you know 346 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: will help you not be tempted to work eighty and 347 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: then also keep that fluidity in case, you know, on 348 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: Tuesday you end up having something that you really want 349 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: to go to with one of your kids, then you 350 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: swap it or that sounds that sounds fantastic exactly. Also, 351 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: I like the idea a lot of trial and art. Yeah, 352 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: we always talk about thinking in terms of one hundred 353 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 1: and sixty eight hours, not twenty four, right that you know, 354 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: having two really long days can be helpful for that 355 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,640 Speaker 1: because then you have three more reasonable days, right, right, 356 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: But even being off and I also try to take 357 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: you know, sort of a weekly view and also a 358 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: monthly view of you know, sometimes I have a really 359 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: busy month this year, unfortunately it was July, and I 360 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: had a lot of depositions and just really busy intensive 361 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: work going on, and I knew that that was time limited. 362 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: I knew that I had a deadline in a case 363 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: that was going to come to a close at the 364 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: end of July, so I knew that that was time limited. 365 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: And then in August, my schedule got really light and 366 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: I was able to spend a lot more time at home. 367 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: I was able to do some work from home days 368 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: and early in the afternoon spend some time at the 369 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: pool at the beach. So, you know, I look at 370 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: it in terms of the week, but I also try 371 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: to look at it in terms of the month and 372 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, adjust the pieces where they 373 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: need to be adjusted. Do you track your time so 374 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: that you can, because I'm impressed that you're able to say, okay, 375 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: July was heavier and or is it just you just 376 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: kind of remember, oh yeah, no, So I track my time, 377 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: you guys, I think Laura would be impressed. Instead of 378 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: thirty minute increments, lawyers, we do six minute increments, and 379 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: so we bill our time in six minute increments. So 380 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: if I spend two point two hours working on something 381 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: for a client, I have to record that point too, 382 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: So I'm always very aware of the number of hours 383 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: that I'm working a week, and you sort of track 384 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: your personal time outside of that, or you like tracking 385 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: fatigue and not in six minute increments. I bet increments. 386 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: I think that would be really sad to see how 387 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: many six minutes I spend, you know, picking up and 388 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: doing other mindless things. But yeah, I try to That's 389 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: generally more by feel, I think, And I have an 390 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: idea for sure. I haven't idea of you know, my 391 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: buckets of time. I like to think of them as 392 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,239 Speaker 1: and you know, if I'm low on spending time with 393 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: my older kids or my younger kids, or if you 394 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: know I'm low on time around the house, you know, 395 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: I try to compensate for that, certainly, not one for one, 396 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: but you know, in kind of a rough justice sort 397 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: of way. Well, let's talk about your support system because 398 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: your husband also is also working, and so you got 399 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: a two career family with the four kids. What sort 400 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: of a support system makes us work on the home front. Yeah, 401 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: so we have an amazing nanny. She was with us 402 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: starting when I think we had our second child, and 403 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: then she actually decided to take a break and wanted 404 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: to work a little bit less. So we actually got 405 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: an au pair for two years around the time that 406 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: my fourth child was born, so that was a lot 407 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: of extra support that we had at that really busy time. 408 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: And now we have our same nanny. She's back again. 409 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: We have her, she's excellent, and my husband and I 410 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: we really trade off. You know, we are rarely both 411 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 1: at home on any given evening during the week. We 412 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: try to look at our schedules in advance and say, okay, well, 413 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: I've got these really busy things going on this day, 414 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: this day is lighter, I'm able to get home, and 415 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: so we really sort of try to trade off. And 416 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes that works great and sometimes it doesn't, 417 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: and we both have to travel or we both have 418 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: a big meeting on any given day, and then you know, 419 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: we rely on our nanny, who's amazing, as well as 420 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: our extended family, our neighbors. You know, we have a 421 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: whole crew of people that we carpool with and that 422 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: we share driving responsibilities with. My in laws live about 423 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: an hour away, so they'll jump in sometimes when we 424 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: both have to travel, and you know, we kind of 425 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: piece it together. I'm kind of curious from the perspective 426 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: of I guess with your oldest big seven, maybe you're 427 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: not quite in the thick of the after school activities 428 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: so much. One of the challenges we've had is like 429 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: three people going in different directions in the hours between 430 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: say three point thirty and six. Have you had any 431 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: of that. I'm curious how you think you'll wind up 432 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: handling that. Oh my gosh, yes. I spend so much 433 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: time on family logistics. I sometimes feel like it's that 434 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: riddle with the box and the boat and the grain 435 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: going across the river, that we've got to make all 436 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: those pieces work. And like you said, yeah, my oldest 437 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: is seven, so we don't have a ton of activities, 438 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: but we do have kids at multiple different schools doing 439 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: multiple different things. And so right now we're able to 440 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: cover with a lot of carpooling and me being home 441 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: generally two days a week, so between my nanny and 442 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: I we can kind of divide and conquer. But I 443 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: do think that might require some additional schedule modifications. Maybe 444 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: in the future when they get a little bit older. 445 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: There's always uber. We haven't quite tried that yet, but 446 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: maybe one of those swait a couple of years. Because 447 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding some of them, my patients families have 448 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: told me that that is not a completely out of 449 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: the out there solution for your thirteen fourteen sent Yeah. Right, So, Kathleen, 450 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean you're One thing that we've heard from other 451 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: people in professional service front is the idea of timing 452 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: your children in your career journey, and a number of 453 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: people who have to leap through a certain hoop for 454 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: their work, whether it's you know, making partner, getting ten 455 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: year all that decide to start their families after they 456 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: have been through that. Now, obviously, you from what I recall, 457 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: you got the announcement that you had been elected, like 458 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: while you right when you were pregnant with number four? Right? 459 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: Is that how that works? So you built your family 460 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: before this, and what led you to that decision? And 461 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: what would you advise other people who are building legal careers? 462 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, you know, I think it's hard. I think 463 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: that everybody has their different thing that works for them, 464 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: and I just I have to say, I just never 465 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: considered holding off on having kids so that I could 466 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: accomplish any particular goal at work. I always thought that 467 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: it would be something that I would try to do 468 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: at the same time. And I think that is one 469 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: thing that's really hard for women in particular at a 470 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: lot of firms like this is the years that you're 471 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: supposed to be really you know, putting in your time 472 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: and working super hard and proving yourself are also the 473 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: years that many women have just gotten married and start 474 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: having kids. So it is it's a really it's a 475 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: really hard thing to navigate, and I just, you know, 476 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: I don't know that I have any advice for anybody 477 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: else except to do what works for them at that 478 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: particular time in their lives. You know. It's funny, I knew, well, 479 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: I thought that it might impact you know, my maternity leaves. 480 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: It took four six month maternity leaves, and so I 481 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: thought that that might impact my paths to partnership or 482 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: my experience, and the firm here has really been great. 483 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: I think I was, you know, right within the zone 484 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: of when people typically make partner definitely, you know a 485 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: little bit later than maybe some of my peers who 486 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: did not have all of that parental leave time. But 487 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: it's something that I just never thought about. I guess 488 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: i'd say I never really thought about the timing all 489 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: that carefully. I just kind of thought that I could 490 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,479 Speaker 1: do it and make it work. And it's funny. I 491 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: do remember getting that call from my practice group leader 492 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: who said, so, I got some exciting news for you, 493 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: and I said, hey, I gots an exciting news for you. 494 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: We both have exciting for each other. He just laughed 495 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: and he said, you know, you did it with three. 496 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll do it with four. You know, I 497 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: don't think it's going to be a big deal. So 498 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: it was great. Yeah, I was really happy to be supportive. Yeah, 499 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: and that is amazing. But that's I mean, that's great 500 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: that it was supportive. And I would definitely like to 501 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: hear of you because we have a lot of listeners 502 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: who are in law firms, and many law firms out 503 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: there at least talk a good game that they would 504 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: like to have a more diverse partnership, more more women 505 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: stick it out to that level. What can they do 506 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: to make sure that more women feel like this is 507 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: a track they can be on, that this is something 508 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: that they can build their careers and do. What can 509 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: what can law firms practically do? Yeah, I think it's 510 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: something that's really important that a lot of law firms 511 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: are looking at right now. And I think one of 512 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: the most important things that they can do is have 513 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: really strong mentorship programs. I think that, and I think 514 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: it's important to have a couple kind of mentors. I 515 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: think it's important to have mentors who do have small children, 516 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: who are going through that same stage of life that 517 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: younger associates are going through. I think that's really important. 518 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: I also think it's really important to have somebody who's 519 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: later in their career, who's been successful, who's brought in 520 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: a lot of business, who has that long view and 521 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: can explain that, you know, different periods in your career 522 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: and different periods in your life are are you know, 523 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: their seasons and they change. So I think that mentorship 524 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: is really important and that those montors are spence excuse me, 525 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: those mentors are sponsors as well. I think is really 526 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: important that it's not just somebody teaching you and telling 527 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: you what to do, but really, you know, talking you 528 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: up and getting your name out there. And I've been 529 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: really lucky to have excellent mentors and sponsor sponsors, both 530 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: moms with young kids and you know, older men who 531 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 1: have been in the profession for a while who've given 532 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: me a lot of guidance. And then I think the 533 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,199 Speaker 1: other thing is to have really great parental leave policies. 534 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: And one thing that our firm just instituted that I 535 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: have to say I wish that they had when I 536 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: was an associated having kids is our ramp up policy. 537 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: So a lot of law firms offer extended leave, which 538 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: I think is great because life as a lawyer at 539 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: a big firm is really busy, and so you know, 540 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: coming back at a time before you know that four 541 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: or five or six month period I think is really 542 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: true key. And I think that longer time off sort 543 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: of prepares, you know, helps you sort of get a 544 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: little bit better situated before you're you're right back in it. 545 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: And so I think when I was an associated was 546 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: probably an informal, unwritten policy that you weren't held to 547 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: the exact same standards as everybody else upon returning from maternity. 548 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: But now it's been formalized, and so associates returning from 549 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: parental leave have three months I believe it is where 550 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: they are held to about eighty percent of their typical 551 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: billable hour requirements, but they're still paid at full at 552 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: their full rate, and so it's sort of a ramp 553 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: up period that allows them to feel like they're meeting 554 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: their goals and to do what they're supposed to be doing, 555 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, while getting that time to readjust to be 556 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: a great pumping allowed all those last hours are like okay, 557 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: well there's my twenty percent right there. I'm sorry, God, 558 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I'm always marveling and 559 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: it must have to just do with the market for 560 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: different people in different professions. But it still shocks me 561 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: that medicine is like none of the supplies, like none 562 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: of it. And I don't know why or how long 563 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,479 Speaker 1: it's going to take, but I'm really happy to hear 564 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: that in another professional fields, that there are companies really 565 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: doing the right thing and amazing things for women, because 566 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: to my ears, all that sounds just like a dream. Yeah, Kathleen, 567 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you with that. I mean, 568 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: this is almost going to segue into our listener question 569 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: that we definitely want to have you addressed because you're 570 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: kind of the expert on this, which which is that 571 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: one of the things that I'll get to the question 572 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: in a minute. But what I imagine that eighty percent 573 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: billables but one hundred percent pay allows you to do 574 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: is kind of re established have time to re establish 575 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: those client relationships, because I know one of the tricky 576 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: things in a client facing industry like law, is when 577 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: you disappear for six months, you know your clients are 578 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: working with other people, and owning that relationship is often 579 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: a big part of people's currency within their firms. Is 580 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: that part of what's going on there? Yeah, exactly, and 581 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: that's exactly it. And I think the policy recognizes that 582 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: doing you know, facilitating a responsible transition is really important. 583 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: And I don't know that it doesn't really help anybody 584 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: if you're working one hundred percent up until the moment 585 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: you give birth right and then just kind of dropping 586 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: off the face of the earth. And similarly, you know 587 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: it's not the best thing for the client if when 588 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: you get back from leave day one you just jump 589 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: right back in. There's definitely that period where you need 590 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: to reacquaint yourself with what's been happening, and a lot 591 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: of that is not time that you do build to 592 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: the client, it's just sort of working time. So I 593 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: think the policy recognizes that having a really good, effective, 594 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: responsible transition is something that takes time, and so I do. Yeah, 595 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: I think it's the policy is really important for that. 596 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: Great well. Our listener question this week is about week 597 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I want to skip. I don't want to 598 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: ask her. I don't want to skip your question about 599 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: the running and like and we kind of heard the logistics. 600 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: I guess we don't need a full day because we 601 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: heard about her week. But I really Laura had written 602 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,959 Speaker 1: in her notes where do you fit in running? So 603 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: if you know that she runs, I need that answer 604 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: before we move on to our qu And I Kathleen, 605 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: when do you run? Oh my gosh, it's possible. But 606 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: I run on as early as I can in the mornings. 607 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: I got a treadmill this year, which has been a 608 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: game changer. And then sometimes I don't run, and the 609 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 1: days that I don't run, this is really sad. I 610 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: do the seven Minute workout app and I take seven 611 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: minutes while the kids are watching TV in the morning, 612 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: and I do that to sort of sort of help 613 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: me start my day. But yeah, I try to do 614 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: my runs on the weekends, on the days that I 615 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: work from home, so that I can go through my 616 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: day and my sweaty running clothes and I don't have 617 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: to worry about getting into the office. And it's always 618 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,719 Speaker 1: a better day when I am able to fit it in. 619 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: But there's many many days when I can't exactly such 620 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: as life. Thank you for fitting that question now. So 621 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: our listener question this week is from a woman who 622 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: lives in the UK and is having her first child. 623 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: She is expecting her first child, ending work around Christmas, 624 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: having the baby right around that time. This is actually 625 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: a woman who is married to another woman, so there's 626 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: you know, non traditional things there right there. So they 627 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: canceive their child through IVF and a donor and all that. Anyway, 628 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: she has a pretty big job, she says. She's the 629 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: communications director for a nationwide NGO. She loves her job. 630 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: It's stressful, challenging, all this great stuff. The thought of 631 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: going off on maternity leave and leaving my job, even 632 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: if only for a while, is scary. She's got great 633 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: people working for her. She's sorting out her team's plans 634 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: and budgets and individual objectives for the next year, you know, 635 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: before she goes. But she's still very anxious about leaving them. 636 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: So first she wants to know what should I do 637 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: to prepare for my maternity leave and an intense job 638 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: like that, you know, she says, I know on some 639 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: level it'll be fun and I'll focus on the baby. 640 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: It's great it's just the next two months that are 641 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: worrying to her. And then she also asked the question 642 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: of what can you say to reassure me that I'll 643 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: still be me when I come back to work. I 644 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: keep feeling paranoid that I'll come back and not be 645 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: the same ambitious, sharp, creative person. So you know, she's 646 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: obviously very excited about her baby and doesn't know exactly 647 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: how that'll change life, but knows it will, but she 648 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: also still wants to have her big career. So I 649 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: want to hear from you a what you do to 650 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: prepare for a longer maternity leave, especially when you've got 651 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: people reporting to you, clients, things like that, and also 652 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: knowing that you'll be the same person coming back and 653 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: then you'll still care about your career. Oh gosh. Yeah. 654 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: So this is something that I have been through four times, 655 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: and every time it did get a little bit easier. 656 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 1: But I have to say, in terms of preparation, it 657 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: is there's a lot of uncertainty and you have a 658 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: lot of questions about how things will go. But on 659 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: the flip side, I actually think it's a great opportunity 660 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: for number one organization and number two team buildings so 661 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 1: I was very deliberate about the process of transitioning clients. 662 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: So I identified all of my cases and matters that 663 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: I had going on and worked with those teams and 664 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: those clients to bring in somebody who could handle the 665 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: work that I had been handling it. Sometimes that would 666 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: be just one person, sometimes it would be a number 667 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: of people. And what I thought was really helpful is 668 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: to bring those people in early, so start, you know, 669 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: see seeing them on emails, start bringing them to meetings 670 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: so that they can get familiar with those issues. And 671 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: then before I actually went out. Unfortunately, all my children 672 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: were born very late, none of them were early, so 673 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: we didn't have that dramatic you know, dropping off the 674 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: face of the earth and leaving on maternity leave. But 675 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: so a few weeks before I would try to sort 676 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: of hand it over to them and let them take 677 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: the reins and do what they were supposed to be 678 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: doing while I was kind of in an observing role. 679 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: So that really helped make for a smooth transition and 680 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: really helped sort of make both the clients feel that 681 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,959 Speaker 1: they had a solid team in place, and then also 682 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: helped the people at the firm who were working on 683 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: that matter field, that you know everything was covered and 684 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: that you know there was a good team handling that. 685 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: In terms of return for maternity leave, I know it's 686 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: it's hard. I think that it's a really tough transition 687 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: to come back to work. And on the one hand, 688 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: I think, you know, of course you're the same person. 689 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,479 Speaker 1: Of course I'm the same person. I want to work hard, 690 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: I want to do well. I want to help my 691 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: clients solve their problems. I want to be successful. I 692 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: want to be a contributing member of my firm. But 693 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: on the flip side, I think there is a really 694 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: big difference and that I don't think I had any 695 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: real time constraints before I had kids. I mean I 696 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: had time constraints. I had other things that I wanted 697 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: to do personally, but no you know, hard stops. No, 698 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: no absolute deadlines that I had to be out of 699 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: the office for or you know, really be mindful of 700 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: on a daily basis. And so I would say, on 701 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, you know, of course you're going to 702 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: be the same You're going to be the same hard 703 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: worker and the same person. But on the other hand, 704 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: I would say, embrace the changes. I found that I 705 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: am so much more efficient now than I had been previously. 706 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: And I think it's, you know, sometimes not the best 707 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: thing in the world when you do have all the 708 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: time that you could ever think of to answer a 709 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: question right. Sometimes it's helpful to have those constraints. And 710 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: so I would say, you know, you're definitely going to 711 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: be the same person, but also embrace those changes and 712 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: some of the differences and the different perspectives that you 713 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: bring when you do return sounds like I love that, Yeah, 714 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: you are the maternity lead something long enough and how 715 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: many times you do it eventually hopefully you figure it out. Yeah. No, 716 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: I think our listeners should should know that she will 717 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: be the same person in the sense of, if you 718 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: are really fine meeting in your career before, you probably 719 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: still will after. And I think, you know, especially if 720 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: she has the support system in place to make it 721 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: it's entirely doable. And that's one of our goals with 722 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: Best of both Worlds is to help people see that 723 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, and I will add that I also 724 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: agree about you know that you will not change person 725 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: at all. And I actually find that going back to 726 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: work was one of the things that kind of I 727 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: enjoyed feeling more like my quote unquote former self. When 728 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: I go back, like there's something magical about that office 729 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 1: environment and getting back to what you were doing before. 730 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: That kind of reminds you that you can, you know, 731 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: you can still do that and you can still be 732 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: your own person even when you're there for your family, 733 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: And I think that can actually be like again, like 734 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: another positive spin on what can be a tough situation. 735 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: Agree with that well, Kathleen. We always end our episodes 736 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: with our love of the Week section, or we talk 737 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: about something that's cool in our lives. This week doesn't 738 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: have to be related to anything we've talked about before, 739 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: so hopefully you'll be able to share one with us 740 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,040 Speaker 1: that we can go first so that you have a 741 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: minute or two to think of it. Sarah, what are 742 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: you loving this week? I am loving my cheap fifteen 743 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: dollars earbuds Inspire three hundred headphones because I lost them. 744 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: I tend to lose them like every year. Maybe sometimes 745 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: they break. I don't know, this is like my third pair, 746 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: but it's not. It's generally my own faults, like either 747 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: I've done something terrible to them, like left them out 748 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: in the rain or lost them and they're the only 749 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: ones that fit in my ears, and they're so easily replaceable. 750 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: So I love that you have their literature that they 751 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: are specifically designed for smaller ears. Well, I think they're 752 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: really like they were trying to get the woman audience 753 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: and I was looking on the package and it said 754 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 1: specifically designed for smaller ears. So yeah, and I can't. 755 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: And by the way, anybody who's like, well, why aren't 756 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: you using wireless, I've tried like three types. They all 757 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: fall out of my ears. I think I have just 758 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: bad years, bad ears. They knew, who knew? Well, mine 759 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: is this is? This is you know, since I am 760 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: spending a lot of time driving my four small children 761 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: around various activities, the seat warmer funk in my car. 762 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: I love to turn this on in the winter that 763 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 1: you know, you have the heater in your seat and 764 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: for some reason, just you know, it's nice to have 765 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: a toasty seat while you're driving around in the cold 766 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,799 Speaker 1: and rain, bringing everyone everywhere. So that's kind of, you know, 767 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: my little treat in the winter. Kathleen, how about you, 768 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: what's what's good for you right now? I also love 769 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: my seat warmers, especially as the weather getting older. But 770 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: it's really simple but I have been loving my kindle lately. 771 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: I have been trying to spend a little bit more 772 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: time reading, and I think I've been trying to use 773 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: my commute time in particular too, instead of just emailing 774 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: constantly the whole time are scrolling through my phone and 775 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: been trying to read my kindle instead. And I find 776 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: that when I take that thirty minutes on my little kindle, 777 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: which I can bring everywhere with me, whether it's on 778 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: my commute or in a doctor's office or when I 779 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: have downtime, I find that if I use that couple 780 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: of minutes to read a book, I just feel like 781 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: it's actually give me time, some rest time, and I 782 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: really enjoy it. So I've been loving my Kindle lately. 783 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: That's awesome. We love our kindles as well. Well. Thank 784 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: you so much, Kathy. We really appreciate your being. Thank 785 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: you so much for having me. It was great chatting 786 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: with you. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah 787 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox 788 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura 789 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds. Podcasts. 790 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: Please join us next time for more on making work 791 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: and life work together.