WEBVTT - The Hunt 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.560 The Moscow Police Department put out a renewed call for 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:09.560 social media content, pictures and videos. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:10.480 From the community. 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:14.280 Investigators are still asking anyone with any information to contact 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.880 the Moscow tip Line. The investigation into who killed four 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:22.400 University of Idaho students has now received ten thousand tips. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:33.800 This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KT Studios 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:42.800 and iHeartRadio, Episode six The Hunt Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.960 producer at KT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, and 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:53.639 Connor Powell. Weeks after four University of Idaho students were 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.880 murdered in their off campus home, investigators are on a 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:02.320 relentless search for the killer as the tips rolled in. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.319 Multiple law enforcement agencies, including the Idaho's d Police and 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.600 the FBI, were working with the Moscow PD to crack 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:15.120 the case. They were methodically zeroing in on their main suspect, 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.400 following the evidence from the mysterious white Atlantra to the 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.760 DNA left at the scene. While observing Brian Coberger at 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.600 his family's home in Pennsylvania, the twenty eight year old 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.720 was seen wearing rubber latex gloves in public and putting 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.240 trash in neighbor's garbage cans. Coburger's family also noticed this 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:37.479 bizarre behavior. According to reports, one of his own sisters 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.800 began to wonder if her brother could have been involved 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.000 in the murders, at one point even saying loudly that 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.399 her brother lived near the victims and drove a white 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.920 Honda Atlantra. While some in the Coburger family may have 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.320 had their suspicions about him, unbeknownst to them, their own 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.280 family's genetic DNA would be key to linking Brian Koeberger 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:57.080 to the murders. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.120 Big crack in this case came from das a specifically 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.080 genetic genealogy. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.079 Within days of the gruesome murders, police suspected the white 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.799 Houndai Alantra seen repeatedly driving near the King Road crime 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:17.000 site was connected to the murders. Investigators immediately began compiling 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.400 a list of white Lantras registered in the region. Investigators 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:24.880 first sought cell records. They then most likely looked for 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.960 every person who panged the Moscow Tower and owned to 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.360 white Alantra, but the search of the long list of 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:39.520 white Alantra's didn't turn up anything conclusive for weeks. Here's 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.040 Jeff and Stephanie. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.160 As November was coming to a close, the Moscow police 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.120 assured the public that there was no threat to the 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.560 community and that they were in fact making progress. 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.519 And at this point cops were really combing through thousands 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.680 of tips and pieces of information, most of which frankly 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:57.360 led nowhere. 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.639 Can you imagine the pressure. Not only are they concerned 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:02.919 about the safety of this college town, but they have 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:04.440 the whole world watching them. 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.880 I remember this time, the public really wanted information, and 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.040 every day that went by without an arrest, people were 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:13.680 getting angrier and angrier. 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.680 Yeah, it's a really unfair expectation, but at this point 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.160 there really was no credible suspect or murder weapon. 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.760 And then by early December, investigators had combed through the 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.639 victim's classmates, their friends, as well as any perhaps registered 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:34.400 sex offenders in the area, stalkers, any individuals known for 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:39.680 violently harassing people. They even looked into a local white supremacist, 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.400 but again, sadly, it all led to nothing. 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.560 The white Alantra was truly the best lead, but it's 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.960 an incredibly common car. In twenty twenty one, Hyundai sold 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.960 over one hundred and twenty four thousand Lantras, In fact, 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.120 the number of aluntras sold last year compared to the 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:58.240 year before increased forty seven percent, So it's basically like 0:03:58.280 --> 0:03:59.560 finding a needle in a haystack. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.320 For weeks, Brian Coberger was simply a name on an 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:08.080 ever growing list, one of the many white Atlanta owners, 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.640 and then he was the lone suspect and under arrest. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.520 Suspect Brian Coburger is behind bars after investigators linked his 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.760 DNA at the crime scene two of a DNA taken 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:21.520 from the trash at his parents' home. 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.359 The official public story laid out in the Probable Cause 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:32.200 AFFI David is that investigator's positively identified Coburger by matching 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:37.000 DNA evidence from the knife sheath to Coburger's father's DNA. 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.040 But investigators in the Idaho Police Lab didn't have a 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.120 positive DNA match for the twenty eight year old criminology 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.960 student until at least December twenty seventh, when a surveillance 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.240 crew pulled his father's DNA from the trash. So how 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.120 did investigators know and with such confidence to start surveillance 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.320 on Coburger long before the conclusive DNA match. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.960 Investigative genetic genealogy was used to point them in his direction. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.720 The path to positively identify in the Washington State University 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.239 PhD student, employed and new, and at the same time 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:19.680 one of the most controversial modern crime solving techniques. It's 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.760 a DNA method that is only reluctantly talked about by 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.720 law enforcement. Before we can explain what genetic genealogy is 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.599 and why it's so rare and controversial, we need to 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.039 explain how DNA material is normally collected and used in 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:35.280 a criminal investigation. 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:40.560 So DNA is what makes us what we are, and 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.880 every single cell of our body, with a few exceptions, 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.600 has the same DNA. I like to describe it as 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.680 an enormous encyclopedia. 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.440 That's Daniel Padini, the head of the forensic Sciences department 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.640 at George Washington University speaking with Jeff. 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:02.240 And every cell of our body kind of harvests or 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.719 looks at parts of that encyclopedia that it needs to 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.279 become what it needs to develop in. So the liver 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:12.760 cell will look at the encyclopedia chapter on how to 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.000 become a liver cell. The retina cell will do the same, 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.240 but it's going to be a different chapter. But the 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.600 entire encyclopedia is present in every single cell, so we 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.400 can look at parts of this encyclopedia that are different 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:32.040 among individuals, and we can generate the DNA profile that 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:37.440 has a very very low frequency in the population to 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:42.120 the point that we can essentially identify a single individual. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.040 How has that now kind of changed the way investigators 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:48.520 work on criminal cases. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:55.039 Yeah, it really has dramatically changed the forensic investigations in 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.719 terms of being able to identify an individual that was 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.880 a crime scene. If a biological evidence is recovered at 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.800 a crime scene, a DNA profile can be generated and 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:12.960 then compared either to a database everybody's heard about the 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.240 CODIS Combined DNA Index System, which is a repository of 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:22.080 DNA profiles from convicted defenders or directly to the DNA 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:28.120 of suspect in order to identify the person that left 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:29.560 their DNA at the crime scene. 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.160 And as we know, there was touch DNA found on it. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.280 Can you explain to us what touch DNA is. 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.560 Touch DNA is a very general term that refers to 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:44.280 the DNA that is deposited on a surface through touching it. 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.200 There's a lot of different types of cells that can 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.760 be deposited when touching a surface. For example, if I 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.080 scratch my nose or I cough in my hand, they're 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.360 being me some cells that come from the mucus or 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.640 from sali. There's also epithelial cells from my skin that 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.840 I'm gonna deposit. And also there's a lot of cell 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.760 free DNA that is secreted in sweat. So there's a 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:16.440 bunch of different types of sources of DNA that we deposit. 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:22.160 So exactly what touch DNA is we don't know, but 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.920 it's a combination of all of those and so, and 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.560 you can't really see it with a naked eye, so 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.840 you have to trust or you have to make some assumptions, 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.080 and generally you're going to try and collect that from 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.680 surfaces dead will have been touched. 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.040 Is it how we see in the movies where they 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:44.880 like dust it and there's like a perfect thumbprint on 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:46.480 the ground or wherever. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.400 No, it's not quite like that. Sometimes if there's a 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.920 blood stain or a semen stain or a saliva stain, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.280 then yes, it's it's pretty simple. You swab that area, 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.559 you transfer the biology stain onto a swab, and then 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.120 you extract the DNA directly from the swab. At times, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.959 though you're not able to see the DNA, you can 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.480 assume that there is DNA in that area, and so 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:17.400 you swab that surface. In the case that we're talking about, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:23.040 they found this knife sheet and they swabbed the area. 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.120 At least that's my understanding. They swabbed the area around 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:30.480 the button and they extracted the DNA from that, But 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:34.120 you don't necessarily see it, and you don't know it's 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.480 there until you've completed the extraction process and you went 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:42.400 through a second process that's called DNA quantification. The DNA 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:46.360 quantification process allows us to determine how much DNA there 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.200 is and also the quality of that DNA in terms 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.640 of it being degraded or potentially inhibited. 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.959 So if you're an investigator, you just kind of try 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.559 to get DNA off of anything without you're kind of 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:02.679 blindly doing it. You're thinking, Okay, there could be DNA here, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.080 could be DA in here, and then it's not till 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.280 you test it that you actually are are aware of 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:08.120 if there is DNA, and then you have to figure 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:09.000 out how much DNA. 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.880 Obviously, you can't swab an entire apartment. That's just not practical, 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.920 and the DNA extraction process and analysis is expensive and 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.480 it takes time, so you need to be frugal and 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.920 keep in mind the resources that are available. So you 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:32.000 tend to do an evaluation of the crime scene and 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:39.000 based on the scenario, identify pieces of evidence that have 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.520 the greatest chance of providing useful information for the case. 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.280 Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.360 Since its creation in nineteen eighty seven, DNA testing has 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.840 proven to be an incredible useful tool in identifying criminals. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.680 It completely changed the criminal justice system. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.280 How it applies to this case is really fascinating. We 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.280 know that investigators pulled a single source mail touch DNA 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.440 off the button of the knife sheet that was left 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.199 at the murdercy. Touch DNA is DNA transferred from a 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.120 person to an object via contact with the object itself. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.680 It's called touch DNA because it only requires very small samples, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.840 for example, from the skin cell left on something after 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:24.840 it's been touched or casually handled, or from footprints. So 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.160 cops have this piece of touch DNA and they tried 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.800 to link that to criminals already in the system. Because, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.960 as you may or may not know, when someone is arrested, 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:33.880 they have to give a fingerprint, which then gets put 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.560 into law enforcement's database system. So let's say whoever did 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.440 commit this massacre also had robbed a bank years ago, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.880 cops would get a match and have all the suspects information. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.680 But that didn't happen here because by all accounts, Brian 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.160 did not have any kind of a criminal record. Maybe 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.719 he was busted for tailgating or something, but that was 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:55.640 the extent of it. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.959 I would think that since he had wanted to work 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.400 in law enforcement and applied for that internship, that he 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.480 might have had to give his fingerprint at some point. 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.880 But there was no match in the system of DNA 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.520 at the crime scene. So unfortunately this was just a 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:10.000 dead end. 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.520 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:26.400 a moment. With pressure mounting and leads coming up empty, 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.520 investigators turned to genetic genealogy as an alternative way of 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.280 identifying DNA on the knife sheath. Here's forensic expert Joseph 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:36.079 Scott Morgan. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.360 The cool thing about genetic genealogy, and it's almost as 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.160 if you've got people that have discovered this thing just 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:51.200 in the last few years, where it's this fascinating methodology 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.920 of tracking down things or putting an identity to things 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.920 or people more specifically, that otherwise have remained kind of 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.959 cloaked in secrecy for many, many years. 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.720 How would you say it differs or doesn't differ from 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.080 regular DNA testing. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:13.040 When it comes to testing for any kind of biological element, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.400 as it's tied back to DNA. The FEDS maintain a 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:22.880 database that is actually referred to it's the FBI's database 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.920 that's actually referred to as CODIS, which is combined DNA 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.280 Index System. And people hear this term thrown around quite 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.120 a bit, and I'm sure that folks have heard about, 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.480 you know, where you have sex offenders where they are 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.839 mandated by court to give up a sample and once 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.439 that sample is rendered, unto the courts and unto the system, 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.240 it's banked at that point in time. So those are 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.760 known offenders, all right. On the other side of the house, 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.720 you have what's referred to as a forensic database. Those 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:57.280 are these horrible crimes, just like you know, the Golden 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.600 State killer that have gone undetected from many years. Those 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.760 are forensic cases where you have a sample which is 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.199 essentially the DNA code that's built into all of us, 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.439 but yet you don't have an identity that goes specifically 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.400 to that person, and so those are the unknowns. And 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.040 when you're looking at serialized crimes, for instance, if you 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.400 can get a DNA sample from multiple cases and it 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.320 kind of funneled back into the system, what they're looking 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.720 for in the forensic side of the house is to 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.840 see if you get multiple hits from a single individual, 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.560 and that gives you an idea of that you have 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.680 a serial perpetrator, for instance, on your hands. Now here's 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.120 the thing when it comes to genetic genealogy. This throws 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:44.560 kind of a wrinkle into everything because for years and 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:49.800 years it's been all about unknown assailants. When you have 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.840 an event where you have DNA deposition at a scene, 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.000 let's say, for instance, from any kind of body fluid, 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.040 blood seam, whatever the case, saliva at the scene, or 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:06.880 maybe even partial DNA that we get from touch DNA, 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.920 if you can capture that bit of biological sample, you 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.240 can kind of kick it into the next level with 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:20.840 genetic genealogy because there is this massive database that exists 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:24.000 out there of people that are seeking their ancestors, or 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.680 perhaps people that are looking to find out their parentage, 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.640 people that have been put up for adoption, Who are 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.920 they related to? And so many government agencies look at 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.440 this as this kind of broad ranging spectrum that they 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.120 can dig into and utilize that to kind of connect 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.440 the dots, if you would, as to who an unknown 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.680 perpetrator might be. And you know, here's the thing. Many 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:56.240 of these cases are solved by identifying cousins of all things, 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:58.920 and we all have cousins. Many of us are related 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.800 to one another, and we have no idea, and so 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:05.880 you look for this connectivity and then you kind of 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:10.360 begin to narrow this down with genetic genealogy. 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.640 Despite having their own in state forensic laboratory, the Idaho 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.600 State Police contacted a private third party company to conduct 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.880 the genealogy testing. Athroom is a Texas based company that 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:32.160 specializes in forensic genetic genealogy and has helped resolve unsolved 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.280 murders and identify unknown victims. With the help of the FBI, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.040 the firm was able to create a more extensive DNA 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.520 profile of the suspected killer, and then it was uploaded 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.920 to commercial genetic testing databases. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.880 Jeff and Stephanie, we don't know where the data profile 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.440 was uploaded. Most likely, though it was Jebmatch or family 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.880 Tree DNA, which are both familial DNA testing services. On 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.120 these sites you can find out what your heritage is 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.480 or if you have any long lost cousins across the world. 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.440 They are also both commercial websites that allow law enforcement searches. 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:09.919 They differ from twenty three in me or Ancestry DNA, 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.560 which do not allow investigators to search the records. 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.480 That does make perfect sense from a consumer's standpoint. I mean, look, 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.800 if you go to a website like twenty three in 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.800 me or Ancestry DNA, you may not want your personal 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.520 data getting out to law enforcement or personal data regarding 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.040 anybody in your family. I would imagine that these companies 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.960 are frankly afraid that law enforcement has access to everyone's 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.880 DNA and then people won't upload their info, thus hurting 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.400 their ultimate bottom line. Privacy is a pretty major concern 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.600 for this industry. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:50.360 Here again Jeff speaking with forensic expert just so Scott Morgan, and. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.320 Would you say that's why it's controversial, because every Tom, 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:55.400 Dick and Harry can kind of help the police catch 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:56.399 their cousin in a crime. 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.560 Most people in the population that are submitting their DNA, 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.800 they don't have a point of reference for what their 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.240 constitutional standing is as it applies to privacy and these 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.000 sorts of things. And you know, I think that for 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:13.880 many folks when they render this DNA sample, and it's 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:18.000 generally a cheek swab or a cheek scraping. When you 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.560 go in, you take the sample, you submit it to 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.800 one of these companies and they begin to run your profile. 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.240 You don't have this expectation that this is going to 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.359 be used to solve a crime. Now, many people might 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.160 not have a problem with that, but others do. They're 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.240 not entering into this agreement with a company so that 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.240 they're going to be crime solvers. They want to determine 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.119 the mystery that surrounds their heritage and to try to 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:47.160 determine who they came from. The Supreme Court has ruled 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.359 in the past that you do not have like a 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:56.720 baked in expectation of privacy if you freely surrender something, Okay, 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:00.199 particularly in this case we're talking about genetic material. They've 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:02.800 held that there is no expectation of privacy for a 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.000 third party. And so you've got these two that go 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.200 back and forth. What it comes down to, I think 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.320 probably for many of these companies people famously like ancestry 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.960 dot com. We've got twenty three and me that have 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.280 been out there for a while. They have vigorously stated 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.119 that they are not working with any government agency and 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.480 they're not going to surrender anything unless they're being presented 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.320 with a subpoena that they are in fact being compelled 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.440 to offer up these profiles that they have. And so 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.520 that in and of itself is kind of striking when 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.399 it comes to the utility of forensic genealogy. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.560 And is that why you think to use it or 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:42.640 to talk about it when they do. 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:47.320 Use it, I think to a great degree, police are 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:52.000 reticent to reveal their sources when it comes to you generally, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.080 don't find out the veil is not lifted. If you will, 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.879 you know from their source how they went about accomplishing 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.399 this these tasks. There are companies out there that do 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.080 in fact aid in the facilitation of this. Orthum comes 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.080 to mind in particular, they've been around for a few 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.440 years now and they've certainly made a name from themselves 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.800 and are highly regarded from a scientific perspective and the 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.240 methodologies that they employ, and they've had great success. The 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.560 average person on the street they're asked this question, how 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:24.880 much do you value your privacy if the whole thing 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.960 turns upon your DNA? Are you willing to surrender that 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.720 bit of privacy that you have in order to solve 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.600 a crime that might facilitate someone being taken off the 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.040 street and that sort of thing. And it's not necessarily 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.840 a very simple answer. It can be very very complicated. 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.360 This case, I think is different because we hear about 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.000 it so much for cold cases, but this is an 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.199 active investigation where genetic genealogy came into place, so obviously 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.960 the question for normally in cold cases, this is a 0:20:58.960 --> 0:20:59.960 little bit of an outlier. 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.439 Yeah, because this is in fact not a cold case. 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.560 From the very first day that this happened, you could 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:10.280 hear the whisperings already, I'd say probably within the first 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:13.119 twelve hours of me being on the air and covering 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.120 the case. From a forensic standpoint, I had questions being 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:21.080 thrown at me repeatedly about DNA and DNA linkage to 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:25.720 a potential perpetrator. How is it possible that a subject 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.240 could go into an environment which we can, I think 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.959 pretty safely state is just a blood bath and not 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:38.320 leave some essence of themselves behind, and you have the 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:43.320 genetic connection at the scene in that home where this 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:49.639 massacre took place, and then apparently you have genetic connectivity 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.120 at Coberg's family's house. So now you're looking at two 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.840 things that are kind of coalescing here, they're coming together, 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:01.160 and you begin to create this picture. It's a damning 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.520 bit of evidence. I think now the courts, the attorneys 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.560 will get together and they'll begin to question things like 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:11.000 sourcing and procedurally, how was this done, how was the 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.919 assessment done, How can this actually be validated? How do 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.040 we know the sample may or may not have been 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:20.560 contaminated because it is so very fragile. Those questions will 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.760 come up. But the fact is you have this arguably 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:29.560 astronomical numerical mountain that the defense is going to have 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.119 to climb in this case. And I look, I don't 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:36.960 necessarily think that the DNA data that they gathered there 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.520 in Pennsylvania, and the DNA that we know about at 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.159 least thus far from what was collected at this quadruple 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.200 homicide is the end of the DNA. There very well 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.119 might be more, we just don't know what it is 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:48.920 at this point, though. 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.760 What's your opinion As an expert, do you think genetic 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.880 genealogy should be used for rest or narrowing down suspect less. 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:02.199 I think that there is utility for it, certainly. I 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:05.760 don't know that I have encountered a case where it 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.000 was turned around this quickly, you know, because look, it 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:11.960 seems as though we've been covering Idaho forever and ever 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:14.960 this point, but we haven't. It's really been a very 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:18.080 short period of time, and this profile was turned out 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.639 very quickly. So there is obviously provable utility relative to 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.480 the tool. I think that it can potentially be a 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.800 very slippery slope from a privacy standpoint. There are so 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.000 many cases out there that are cold, and you would 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:38.680 want nothing more than to have answers to these things 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:40.960 that have kind of lingered in our mind and actually 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:45.119 have become part and parcel of our history, And certainly 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:48.199 in the true crime community. Can you even imagine if 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:51.040 they were able to, say, for instance, come up with 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:54.760 a bit of unidentified DNA from say the Black Dalia 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:58.920 case or from Jack the Ripper, and they were able 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:02.560 to construct some kind of DNA profile based upon that. 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:05.040 I think a lot of us would really like to 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:09.080 know who those individuals might be that committed these crimes. However, 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.720 we have to keep in the forefront of our mind 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.919 what our expectations are as American citizens. Do we have 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.919 a right to privacy? And this is not just maybe 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:23.480 our records or our papers that you're talking about government 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:27.720 authorities having access to. We're talking about our base genetic code. 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:30.320 Do you think it's the future? Like, is there any 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.320 way to stop to you know, kind of put this 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:35.199