1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I don't clean up my 2 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: house necessarily the way I probably should, particularly out in 3 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: the yard. I've got an old shit and tools and 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: what not playing around. I don't keep them in the 5 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: best order, probably by some people's standards. And I've often 6 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: wondered if I suddenly passed away, what would happen to 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: everything I own? What kind of impression would that leave? 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: Would the folks that have to come up and kind 9 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: of clean up after me? I know it's kind of morbid, 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: but it happens. It happens on a regular basis. But 11 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about a case where the 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: gentleman passed away naturally and the police when they were 13 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: at his house found something that I think that they 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: will never ever forget. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 15 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks. Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with 16 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, is with me. Jackie. I gotta tell you, 17 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I'm sure your house is 18 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: in great order, maybe you've got a toolshed. But for me, 19 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, it really does bother me. I 20 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: think about I guess it's because I've been out to 21 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: so many death scenes, and I think there, but for 22 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: the grace of God, go ahi kind of look around 23 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: and man, when you die, it's just it's the way 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: it is. You know, if you didn't clean up before 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: you died, it's just gonna stay that way. And I 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: guess it leaves an impression on the people that come 27 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: out and find you and the people that have to 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: clean up after you. Salutely. And in this case, as 29 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: in many others we've talked about it did I've told 30 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: you before, Joe, if I run across something and I 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: don't know what it is, I'm not opening in it. 32 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: And this is another one of those cases. This gentleman 33 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: died of natural causes. Yet, as with any death, the 34 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: police came out. They're looking around to make sure that 35 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: it is indeed natural causes, and they find in a 36 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: bucket a severed foot. I can only imagine the condition 37 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: of this foot. We don't know how long it's been there. 38 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: We don't know where it came from, we don't know 39 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: how it was stored. All we know is that it 40 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: was in a bucket. What did the police find? I 41 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: just wish I could have been kind of an independent 42 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: observer knowing what was coming, just to see the expression 43 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: on their faces, because that's one of those old my 44 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: god moments. Just imagine. And this is in Biloxi, Mississippi, 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: and it's the busy jurisdiction, and these guys are just 46 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: going out and look, my hat's off to them because 47 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: are working to some is in any kind of death investigation. 48 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: As forensic investigators, certainly, you know, we say our supposition 49 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: is that every death, not some death, but every death 50 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: is a homicide until we can prove otherwise. So these 51 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: guys were doing their job out there, you know, they 52 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: were just checking to take everything into consideration to try 53 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: to understand what was going on and what exactly do 54 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: you do when you find a foot? How in the 55 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: world are you going to try to make sense of this? 56 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: You got a guy that's died of natural causes. I 57 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: think my first inclination would be, well, let's go examine 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: this guy's body one more time to make sure he's 59 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: got both of his feet, and in this case he did. So. 60 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: Then you have to ask yourself, from an investigative standpoint, 61 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: why would a man, first off, have a foot that 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: has obviously been dissected away from another person, and it's 63 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: in a bucket. It's in an advanced state of decomposition, 64 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: which to me is kind of fascinating. But it was 65 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: in such a state it was not as far gone 66 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: as maybe we might think, because the police were instantly 67 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: able to still understand that they were staring at a 68 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: foot that belonged to some person out there. So it 69 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: wasn't just like a collection of bones where they had 70 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: to kind of go through it and say, well, this 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: might be a bone that originated from a hand, or 72 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: maybe this is a bone that originated from a foot. No, 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: they said that this is a severed human foot. So automatically, 74 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: you know, you're thinking, well, I got a foot, where's 75 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: the rest of the body, because you have to answer 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: that question. It's not one of these findings from an 77 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: investigative standpoint that you can just kind of gloss over 78 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: and say, well, yeah, he had a human foot and 79 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: we'll just move on to the next thing. Let's close 80 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: this case. Now that begs more questions. The first thing 81 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: that would have to be done is retrieval of the foot, obviously, 82 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: but as you said, the question is where's the rest 83 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: of the body. What would investigators have done on the 84 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: scene to determine if there was more remains on that property. Well, 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: first off, you're going to look if you've got a 86 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: if you have an element of a body. In this 87 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: case of foot. Essentially, a way it's been presented is 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: that it's in a bucket beneath the house. You're going 89 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 1: to treat this as if there might be the rest 90 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: of the remains. When you say that the bucket was 91 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: underneath the house, you don't mean that it was buried. No, no, no, 92 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: it's just underneath this right. Yeah, this would have been 93 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: in plain view for the police. It would have been 94 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: enough so that there there's searching beneath this guy's home 95 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: and they look, there is a bucket. Well, let's look 96 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: in the bucket. They pull the bucket out and they 97 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: see the foot there. So you have to think, well, 98 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: if there's a dismembered foot here, this entire area surrounding 99 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: the foot and the placement of it is a potential 100 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: that has to be a zamined, maybe even excavated at 101 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: that point in time, because you're going to go through 102 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: here and see if maybe the rest of the remains 103 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: had been dismembered and buried beneath the house. So that's 104 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: something just from Jump Street that you would have to 105 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: consider to see if you can find anything that's going 106 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: to match up with the dismembered foot. Do you find 107 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: a legma and for instance, that has actually got saw 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: marks on it where dismemberment may have taken place, then 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: you have to go into the house because if you 110 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: have a person that is storing okay for lack of 111 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: a better term, or retaining a severed foot, you have 112 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: to think, well, are they retaining other parts? Are there 113 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: other items inside the house that might be associated some 114 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: mortal remains of someone you know as this person. Have 115 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: they taken a body apart and preserved organs for instance? 116 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: There have been cases of that where people have done this. 117 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: You have people that obviously that have taken bodies apart, 118 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: preserved individual parts, say, for instance, like organs, hearts, lungs, 119 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: these sorts of things and put them in jars and 120 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: put preservative in there. Yeah, people that retain heads. Jeffrey 121 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: Dahmer famously did that, and there have been other people 122 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: that like to do this sort of thing. Are that 123 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: are compelled to do it for whatever reason? There are 124 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: people that you have been caught ordering human body parts 125 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: through the mail or over the internet over the years, 126 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: and of course they try to stem that US Customs does, 127 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: but you know, there have been cases where things have 128 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: come into this country. So you know, I guess the 129 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: big thing here is you're trying to find a point 130 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: of origin and where's the rest of the body. So 131 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: as an investigator, you would go from stem to stern 132 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: in this villa's house, looking through the house, trying to 133 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: determine what's there, is anything odd out of place? You 134 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: would have to really begin to pick apart this guy's life. 135 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: And keep in mind, at this point in time, he's dead. 136 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: He's dead. It's not like you can take him downtown 137 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: and sit him in a table and begin to question him. 138 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: You know, where were you on this date? What had 139 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: you been doing on this date? How did you come 140 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: into possession of a severed human foot? You don't have 141 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: that person to ask us questions of. And to my 142 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: way of thinking, if he's got close friends or relatives, 143 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: unless he is really out of his mind, this is 144 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: not something he's going to disclose to anybody else. So 145 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: his family might not even be aware that he had there, 146 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: His friends might not be aware that he had this there. 147 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: This is some kind of secret that he has taken 148 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: with him to his grave. So then the investigation turns 149 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: to trying to discover the identity of this foot. Who 150 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: does this foot belong to and how did it end 151 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: up in a bucket? DNA is your friend? Is it not? 152 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: Of course it is. There's not a lot you can 153 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: do from an anthropological standpoint. Kind of let me put 154 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: a finer point on that. When you look at a foot, 155 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: unlike a skull, for instance, where we can do kind 156 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: of a typology where you know, you think about you 157 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: can look for certain racial characteristics. You can look for 158 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: indications of whether or not this is a male versus 159 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: female skull. There's terms that we use, for instance, with 160 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: a male skull versus a female skull, Like the features 161 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: of a male skull tend to be what are called robust. 162 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: You think about your brow line, kind of run your 163 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: finger across your brow there. Males tend to have kind 164 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: of a what's called a protuberant brow line, very pronounced, 165 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: whereas with female skulls you'll have a use of term grassile. 166 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: I love that term, by the way. It means kind 167 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: of fine and it's less robust. And that would be 168 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: but you don't have that with a foot. How are 169 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: you going to actually begin to narrow this down? Right? 170 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: You are Jackie and saying that DNA would be your friend. 171 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: I think the key is are you going to be 172 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: able to recover any kind of viable DNA from this foot? 173 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: How well preserved is it? Because you know, we talk 174 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: about this all time, where you have a sample, and 175 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: the term that we use is degradation. It becomes degraded 176 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: where the sample will be no longer viable. What your 177 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: source would be is so decomposed to the point where 178 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to find viable DNA. 179 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: But I think in this particular case, that's what they 180 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: were relying on. So they were able to actually retrieve 181 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: a DNA sample from the foot, and I think that 182 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: that's when the story actually takes a turn here. So 183 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: let me throw another scenario into the mix. This foot 184 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: was found in twenty nineteen. What if you had another 185 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: body part found, say three years earlier, twenty sixteen, in 186 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: another state. How do we see if there's a connection. 187 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: Excellent question, and it's kind of simple. All it's going 188 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: to require on the part of the investigators over in 189 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: Biloxi is to begin to search news stories. Okay, are 190 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: there any stories that are out there involving dismembered bodies 191 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: where they were actually missing part of the body. They 192 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: found two legs, or they found a torso, or they 193 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: found an arm, or they found a head, but yet 194 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: the feet are missing. In this particular case, that's actually 195 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: where you start from an investigative standpoint. And then I 196 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: think that some of the tools that we now have 197 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: at our disposal, these repositories that exist for individuals you 198 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: know that are currently unidentified, like name us, in those 199 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: types of places where they have a repository of DNA 200 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: sample from unknown bodies. If you can retrieve a DNA 201 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: sample from that item that you have and submitted, are 202 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: you going to get a DNA match? That kind of 203 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: intensifies the investigation. And of course if you come up 204 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: with zero, then you have to kind of rethink your 205 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: approach to the case. In this particular case, they were 206 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: able to find I think a match. In this case, 207 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: it does actually go back to a case that originated 208 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. I've never been one for puzzles. I've 209 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: never particularly liked jigsaw puzzles. I lose my patience with them. 210 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, i'd be compelled to have 211 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: to participate in that activity. It's just something i'd lose 212 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: my patients with really quickly. In this particular case, we've 213 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: got kind of a human jigsaw puzzle at this point 214 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: in time. How are we going to match up a 215 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: foot that's found in Biloxi, Mississippi with any other dismembered 216 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: body that might be found. I would assume in a 217 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: kind of a regional context, because you got to think 218 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: that whoever took the foot off of this body didn't 219 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: go too far with it perhaps, and I think that 220 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: that's what the police were looking at here. What happened 221 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: in this case? A body was found along the side 222 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: of US ninety in Louisiana, in Saint Tammany Parish. And 223 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: it was also not intact body. It was just a torso. 224 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: The man's arm was missing and one leg had been 225 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: severed just below the knee. Now, again, this was in 226 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: a different state. It obviously took three years to put 227 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: these body parts together. How did they do it? What 228 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: is the connection here? Well, the connection is the fact 229 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: that in twenty sixteen, when this dismembered remain was found 230 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: the corner at that particular time in Saint Tammany Parish. 231 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: The corner at that time made the determination of the 232 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: cause of death. He knew that he was dealing with 233 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: a body that was missing both arms, but the head 234 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: was intact, most of the torso was intact, and you know, 235 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: like you said, one of the feet or missing, and 236 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: there was also some other trauma that would have been 237 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: what's called superior to where the foot was dissected off. 238 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: It's almost like somebody got into the knee. They were 239 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: going to attempt to also dissect that knee. They had 240 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: taken the foot off, and they had moved up the 241 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: leg to the knee, and they kind of stopped midway 242 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: through this, And that gives you an idea that there 243 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: was an attempt perhaps to take apart the entire body. 244 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: Maybe they just lost energy, Maybe they were scared, thought 245 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: that they were going to be found out, and they 246 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: essentially put the body into a vehicle and then dumped 247 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: it along US Highway ninety, which runs along the Gulf Coast. 248 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: Ninety is actually the old road US Federal Highway that 249 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: people would go back and forth on now I ten, 250 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: which is just to the north of it has taken 251 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: the place of that, but US Highway nineties still exists. 252 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, where the foot was found was over in Biloxi. 253 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: Where the body was found back in twenty sixteen, was 254 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: roughly about only sixty miles away, you know, And that's 255 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: that's what that's like a fifty five minute car drive. 256 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: Maybe if you're just staying within a speed limit, say 257 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: you're driving sixty five miles per hour, fifty five to 258 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: an hour and five minutes depend upon how fast you're going, 259 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: it's not that far away. So the question I think 260 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: for me is, well, why is it that an individual 261 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: would take apart this body to a certain degree, dump 262 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: it in Louisiana and then travel down the road to 263 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: their home and retain the foot. Why in the world 264 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: would you retain the foot, because you would think that 265 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: body itself would be the biggest obstacle to overcome. You're 266 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: trying to dispose of it. You just throw it out 267 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: alongside the road. There's no indication that there was an 268 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: attempt to really hide it or anything like that. It's 269 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: almost like it was a dump, if you will, just 270 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: alongside the road, a thoroughfare where somebody is traveling so 271 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: conveniently they just kind of take it and lay it 272 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: out alongside the road. But yet they retain the foot 273 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: and take it home with them. That's super bizarre. I'm 274 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: like you, though, Joe, I'm beginning to question why. I 275 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: guess the better question would be what was the purpose? 276 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: As opposed to why would they do it? What purposed 277 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: them to engage in this? Are they attempting to hold 278 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: onto the foot as a trophy item? Are they forgetful 279 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: and say, well, yeah, I got the foot in a bucket, 280 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: I'm just going to stick it under the house and 281 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: I'll get to it eventually. What's your purpose for retaining 282 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: the foot if you're the perpetrator, I have no idea. 283 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: Maybe there's some kind of psychological attachment to it, but 284 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: the fact that he did have it is what led 285 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: to the break in the case because the corner over 286 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: in Saint Tammany, when obviously they've got this this horrible 287 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: remain that they've recovered off of Highway ninety. In addition 288 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: to their assessment the physical assessment of the body, they 289 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: did take a DNA sample and so that DNA sample 290 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: was sent to a repository where you have these individuals 291 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: that are unknown, and hopefully at some point in time 292 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: in the future they would be able to get a hit, 293 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: maybe a familial hit on a family member, where they 294 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: could say, yeah, well we have a human remain that 295 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: is more than likely related to this living person. I 296 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: don't know that in their wildest fantasies they would have 297 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: thought that the connection would have been made between the 298 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: dismembered foot and the body that they had found three 299 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: years earlier. What was the cause of death? The body 300 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: was found discarded on the side of the road, not 301 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: sure how long it had been there. What was the 302 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: cause of death and how was that determined? Considering that 303 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: there were body parts missing. Well, let's get to the 304 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: cause of death. I like that, and then I really 305 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: want to talk about the missing arms. The cause of 306 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: death in this case, it's going to be blunt force trauma. 307 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: And what that means is that somebody had taken this 308 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: fellow and literally beaten him to death, because the way 309 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: the corner terms it, he had sustained massive skull fractures. 310 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: There was massive skull trauma, a multiple fracture. So for 311 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: every if you just imagine cracking of an egg, and 312 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: that represents the skull. Every time you kind of strike 313 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: an egg, saying hard boiled egg, that's a better example 314 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: than an unboiled egg. A hard boiled egg. Every time 315 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: you strike the exterior, that external table of that shell, 316 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: you're going to create a fracture and kind have like 317 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: a spider web appearance. I think that most people can 318 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: kind of appreciate that. So for every one of those 319 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: little spider webs that you see, imagine that it's a 320 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: wagon wheel with a hub. For every one of those, 321 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: that represents an individual impact. Okay, So when you hear 322 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: a corner and medical examiner say, well, we've got multiple 323 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma to the head, what they're saying is 324 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: they can appreciate, first off, what's called a focal area 325 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: of hemorrhage if you have soft tissue remaining that is 326 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: the scalp, and then underlying, perhaps there's this kind of 327 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: egg like fracture that has taken place, and you'll have 328 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: multiple of these. So for every say, for instance, you 329 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: have this skull fracture that is radiating out like the 330 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: spokes on a wagon wheel, every time this fellow is struck, 331 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: it's leaving behind this evidence of individual strikes. All the 332 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: way around it. And in addition to that, not only 333 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: was he struck about his cranium okay, but he's also 334 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: got multiple fractures over his face as well. So whoever 335 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: did this to him intended to bring about his death 336 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: as a result of literally beating him to death. So 337 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: you've got these fractures that are existent, and one of 338 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: the difficult things in the morgue when you have multiple 339 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: fractures like this, you'll have these kind of interrelated, communicating fractures, okay, 340 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: And what that means is that where an individual is struck, 341 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: it radiates out like the spiderweb, and then from an 342 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: adjacent fracture point of impact, you'll have those radiating lines 343 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: that will come out in the kind of overlap many times, 344 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: and if you've got a lot of them, it takes 345 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: some time for the pathologists to sit there and say, Okay, 346 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: this little line of fractures is related to this impact. 347 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: This one is related to this impact. And you say, moran, 348 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: why is that even important? Well, it's important because you 349 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: get an idea as to perhaps the sequencing of the injuries. 350 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: You know, in what order did they her If there's 351 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: any evidence of for instance, this is very important where 352 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: we have no hemorrhage. That indicates that this is a 353 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: post mortem injury, that somebody continue to beat this guy 354 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: after he is dead. So you have to kind of 355 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: assess all of that as you go along, and it 356 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: puts a fine point on what brought about this guy's 357 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: cause of death. For my money, you learn more about 358 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: the dead from the life that they led, those things 359 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: that they were associated with, family friends, all those sorts 360 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: of things. You learn more from their identification many times 361 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: than you do about their cause of death. And with 362 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: this victim that was partially dismembered, we know specifically what 363 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: brought about his death. He was pummeled to death. He 364 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: was beaten to death with multiple skull fractures, facial fractures. 365 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: But if you really want to get it to the 366 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: heart of the story, you have to find out who 367 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: he is. And for the police in both Mississippi and 368 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, it was a headscratcher for him. They had 369 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: no idea trying to identify this person who's been left 370 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: on the side of the road and identifying and matching 371 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: this foot How is that done? Obviously we know they 372 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: made the DNA match. That's how they were able to 373 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: connect the two different body parts, but this gentleman was 374 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: still not identified. The arms were missing, which meant they 375 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: couldn't do fingerprints. How did they make the identification? I 376 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: actually had a case in my distant past where I 377 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: found a body in a creek and both of the 378 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: hands were missing off of the body. And it wasn't 379 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: the smartest person that had done this, because they left 380 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: guy's wallet in his back pocket, but they had cut 381 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: the hands off of this individual. And immediately you begin 382 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: to think, well, they cut the hands off because they 383 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: wanted to impede the ability of us to get him 384 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: identified their fingerprints. But in this case, you've got both 385 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: arms missing, which is odd in itself, and what do 386 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: you accomplish by that? A lot of this is supposition 387 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: on our part as an investigator. You have to kind 388 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: of think, what's the purpose behind removing not just the hands, 389 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: but also the arms. And this is my thought nowadays 390 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: with proliferation of tattoos, tattoos or specific identifiers that we 391 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: look at. So if anybody has tattoos on their arms, 392 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: you can look at it and say that appears to 393 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: be the same tattoo that my brother had or my 394 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: dad had or whatever the case might be. When you're 395 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: trying to get a body visually identified removing the arms, 396 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: it can mean that maybe the individual had tattoos and 397 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: you're trying to impede the investigation by doing that. And oh, 398 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: by the way, at the end of the arms, you've 399 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,239 Speaker 1: also got hands which you can roll a print off of. 400 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: And if the person has a record anywhere, and not 401 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: necessarily just a record, but you know, for those of 402 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: us that have been in the armed forces, for instance, 403 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: if you've never been printed before in your life, you're 404 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: going to get printed in the Armed forces. And today 405 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: they do DNA swabs, but you're going to get printed. 406 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: And so you've got a print card on file somewhere 407 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: out there. Certain employers keep print cards. And then not 408 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: to mention criminal population, anybody's been booked at any point 409 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: in time, you've got a print card somewhere. So that's 410 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: something else from an investigative standpoint that's going to hamper you. 411 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: You're trying to make an ID. You have to begin 412 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: to think. You look at it and you think, well, 413 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: it was the purpose of taking the arms off? Was 414 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: it just part and parcel of dismembering a body to 415 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: try to make it compact so that it would make 416 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: for easier disposal, or are you trying to hamper the 417 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: authority's ability to roll a print or make a visual 418 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: id with the tattoos. What's fascinating about this case, and 419 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: I can't get past this, having grown up in this area, 420 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: you have got possibly two of the apex predators in 421 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: the world that inhabit this area. You've got alligators because 422 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: the body was actually found immediately adjacent to an area 423 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: that's called the Rigglies, And the Rigglies is a pass 424 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: essentially a pass in the water where it goes from 425 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: Lake Pontchatrain into what another body water is called Lake 426 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: Borne and then that opens out into the Gulf of Mexico. 427 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: So you've got alligators that are in twelve this area. 428 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: Out there, there's there's actually swamp tours in this particular area. 429 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: People got on boats and they see alligators. They're everywhere 430 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: down there, and then out in the Gulf of Mexico 431 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: you've got sharks. So why just take the body and 432 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of dump it right there on the side of 433 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: the road when it could have been more easily facilitated 434 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: where you nobody'd ever find the remains potentially if you 435 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: play out there, and the fact that they went to 436 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: these laborious links of trying to dissect out a body 437 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: and then just kind of suddenly dump it as kind 438 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: of fascinating to me. I think it's almost like it 439 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: was an incomplete attempt at getting rid of a body. 440 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: But thankfully, because they were able to retain and capture DNA, 441 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: they were able to get a positive id on this individual. 442 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: You mentioned a couple of times in their Joe about 443 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: being able to identify tattoos. How is that? Are you 444 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: talking about recognizing the pattern the kind of inks? How 445 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,640 Speaker 1: do you do that? Depended upon the artists that actually 446 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: and look we can let's just say plainly, tattoos are 447 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: far more common than they used to be. In the 448 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: early days, there were specific people that were highly skilled 449 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: at identifying the work of specific tattoo artist. I don't 450 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: know if people understand this. You would sit the people 451 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: that would learn to kind of perform tattoo artistry would 452 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: sit at the feet of a master essentially, and they 453 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: would kind of learn how to do this, and they 454 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: all kind of had this family tree that they would 455 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: descend out of. Well, this looks like so and so's 456 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: work okay, so you could almost regionalize it. There was 457 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: like several famous tattoo artists. I think there was one 458 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: in particular Baltimore that was very, very popular and he 459 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: was well known, and you could see people that had 460 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: kind of copied his work or learned from him. So 461 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of a tie back. But nowadays you've got 462 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: people that have shops everywhere. There's been a real proliferation, 463 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: so it kind of waters down your ability as an investigator, 464 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: kind of narrowed down what the actual origin of that is. Now, 465 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: if you've got an older gentleman that's had a tattoo 466 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time. It used to be 467 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: that you would have people that were in service, particularly 468 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: people that had traveled overseas to like the Philippines, that 469 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: would get tattoos, say around Subic Bay and those areas 470 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: like that that were in the Navy, those were specifically identifiable. 471 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Then you have more rough hewn tattoos, which actually kind 472 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: of make it easier to identify an individual. And I'm 473 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: thinking things like homemade tattoos and gailhouse tattoos, because you 474 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: can certain tattoos, you look at it and you can 475 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: say well that, yeah, that kind of looks like a 476 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: gelhouse tattoo that somebody had this done in prison. It 477 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have the same precision to it, it doesn't have 478 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: a variety of inks, and so those are little indicators 479 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: to us as to the origin of the tattoo. Well, 480 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: if you've got a geelhouse tattoo, guess what as that's 481 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: invaluable when it comes to an investigation because you can say, well, 482 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: this person has done time in the joint perhaps, and 483 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: depend upon the type of tattoo, it might lead back 484 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: to a specific point of origin and where they had 485 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: done time. It leads you have a place to start. 486 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: That's the important thing about getting IDs done in forensics 487 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: and death investigation. You know, we kind of have this 488 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: this old idea that doesn't really exist anymore of visual ID. 489 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: Visual idea is the worst kind of ID that you 490 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: can do, where you kind of have this drupeo morgue 491 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: attend and you think about from the movies years ago 492 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: where a weeping family member comes into the morgue and 493 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: they pull the sheet back and they say, yes, that's 494 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: my brother or whatever. Doesn't really happen like that anymore, 495 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: And if it does. It shouldn't happen that way because 496 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: we have so many tools at hand to get people identified. 497 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: So there's three levels of identification that we have. We 498 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,959 Speaker 1: have unidentified, which means we have no idea who this 499 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: person is, which in this case certainly happened. You know, 500 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: we had a foot and then we had a partially 501 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: dissected remain that was in another state. Had no idea 502 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: who they were, so that's unidentified. Then we have something 503 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: that's called presumptive ID. Presumptive idea is kind of that 504 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: mushy middle ground that you have. And I've had cases 505 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: where I had no DNA to necessarily work with, or 506 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: the individual had no family members to compare the identity to. 507 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: I had a case in particular where a woman was 508 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: locked in her house with her dogs for about five months, 509 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: and the dogs had consumed a goodly portion of her body, 510 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: and so the house was locked from the inside. Her 511 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: keys were there, her wallet was there, her car was there, 512 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: but there was nothing of her that remained from her 513 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: waist up. Okay, I had no fingerprints to go and 514 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: she had no living relatives, so that would be a 515 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: presumptive ID. That body was a female body. She was 516 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: African American and she resided there. We knew that that 517 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: was her home, and then we had nothing else to 518 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: hang our hat on. Okay, so that's a presumptive ID, 519 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: and then we have a positive ID where scientifically we've 520 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: been able to verify their DNA, fingerprints, dental that sort 521 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: of thing that definitively is that person. The least reliable 522 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: probably is a visual ID because you can have there 523 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: are too many things that can happen with a visual ID. 524 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: First off, people are terrified when they show up to 525 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: the MOREK to see a body. They're so emotional many 526 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: times that they're wrecked. I've had multiple bodies misidentified over 527 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: the years through visual ID. I never rely on government id's. 528 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: It's something that it's a starting place, you know. If 529 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: somebody has a driver's license on them, it's a starting place. 530 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: But I have to be able to verify that to say, okay, 531 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: I think that this is who I have. If I've 532 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: got a body that is just torn to shreds, I 533 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: can't look at a driver's license and actually say, well, yeah, 534 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: this is the same person. It kind of looks like them. 535 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: How are you going to do that when a person's 536 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: face is horribly disfigured. It's a starting place, Okay. I 537 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: don't trust any kind of ID because it can be 538 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: forged a year from now after I've stated that definitively, 539 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: that I got that body ID through a driver's license 540 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: and it turns out not to be them. Why, I've 541 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: just put myself in a heck of a position not 542 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: to mention the horror that descends upon the family at 543 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: that point in time because I assume something, I assume 544 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: something and it turns out not to be their loved 545 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: when that has happened as well. So you have to 546 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: be very definitive about these things. And one of the 547 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: most definitive things you can do nowadays, and there's no 548 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: excuse not to use it, is DNA. There's another component here, 549 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: and that is phenotyping. What is that and how does 550 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: it come into play? Well? With phenotyping, you're taking a 551 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: sample of DNA, okay, and based upon the markers within 552 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: that DNA as it is examined, you can come up 553 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: with certain traits or characteristics that are unique to that 554 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: DNA strand. And what that means is that they can 555 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: and listen, listen, It's not one hundred percent okay, it's not, 556 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: but it's it's really quite amazing technology because then they 557 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: can hazard an educated guests. They can say that with phenotyping, 558 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: based upon the markers that we see on this strand 559 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: of DNA, we can offer an opinion that this individual, 560 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: say for instance, is Middle Eastern in origin. Okay, so 561 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: therefore they're going to be more dark complexed, maybe olive complexed. 562 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: There's a high likelihood they'll either have brown or green eyes. 563 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: Their hair might be black and straight, brown and straight, 564 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: maybe slightly wavy. We can get an idea for height 565 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: in many of these cases, they can also get an 566 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: idea for the build of the person. And if they 567 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: really dig deep with this, they can see certain markers 568 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: that might be indicative of the type of health the 569 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: subject may have had. There might be some kind of 570 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: DNA predispositions to certain types of health issues they might 571 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: have in their life. And when you do that, you 572 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: begin to kind of bring this picture together of who 573 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: this person might be. And you know, amazingly, with these 574 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,719 Speaker 1: types of cases, they can create create a composite of 575 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: these individuals DNA snapshot, and these DNA snapshots are absolutely amazing. 576 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: They can create and rate an image of a person. Now, 577 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: like I said, imagery went back to driver's licenses. Imagery 578 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: itself is not necessarily enough to confirm an identification. This 579 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: is merely a place to start. So just because you 580 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: have a phenotype that gives you an outline of what 581 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: the person or who the person might be, what their 582 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: point of origin is, it doesn't mean that you have 583 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,959 Speaker 1: a specific identification on the body, Okay, And I gotta 584 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: I gotta mention this as well. In this particular case, 585 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: the LSU Faces Lab got involved with this case. The 586 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: LSU Faces Lab was the first lab in the United States, 587 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: located at Louisiana State University. They were the first lab 588 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: where they actually digitized a human skull and were able 589 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: to model a skull to great effect. And they also 590 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: do clay modeling, and they did. They generated a clay 591 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: model on this gentleman that they found in Saint Tammany 592 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: Parish back in twenty sixteen and were able to get 593 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: an idea of what he may have looked like in 594 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: life in a three D sense like that. So you 595 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: coupled that along with a phenotyping, and now an image 596 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: begins to appear. The key, though, The key is to 597 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: find specific connectivity linkage, if you will, through DNA to 598 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: a family member. Ultimately, this gentleman was identified. His name 599 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: is Cleanthus constantines they were able to through the DNA 600 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: match to a family member of North and not surprisingly, 601 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: the phenotype sketches of what they thought this man would 602 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: look like matched Joe. Isn't that amazing? DNA is the 603 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: It's a modern wonder From a forensic standpoint, clay modeling 604 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: is fine, and we've done that for a number of years, 605 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: and that was kind of the first step, I think 606 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: for many of us. But when we see what they're 607 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: doing with these so called phenotyping snapshots, if you will, 608 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: it's absolutely amazing how you can take those base elements 609 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: that we are, that we kind of spring from, and 610 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: capture a picture, capture a picture of a real person 611 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: and kind of conjure them up out of this DNA 612 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: phenotyping and the similarities are absolutely just striking. I'm Joseph 613 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks