WEBVTT - adrienne maree brown: Cancel Culture is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.196 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The way 0:00:24.276 --> 0:00:27.276 cancelation makes it seem like one person is responsible for 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:31.756 an entire system of behavior, we never get at the system, 0:00:31.796 --> 0:00:33.876 and it allows us to be off the hook that 0:00:33.996 --> 0:00:37.196 we are all participating in the same systems. You may 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:40.836 have heard them cancel culture a few or many many 0:00:40.916 --> 0:00:45.196 times before. According to Urban Dictionary, cancel culture is defined 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:48.756 as a modern Internet phenomenon where a person is ejected 0:00:48.796 --> 0:00:53.076 from influencer fame due to questionable actions. It seemed by 0:00:53.156 --> 0:00:55.476 some as a way to hold public figures with power 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.716 accountable for their actions, while others see it as the 0:00:58.796 --> 0:01:02.636 new mob mentality. But people have been canceling other people 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:05.796 through the ages. Think back to the nineteen fifties with 0:01:05.836 --> 0:01:09.316 Senator Joseph McCarthy blacklisting folks he deemed on a mark, 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:15.716 and even further back to the Salem witch trials. These days, comedians, politicians, 0:01:16.196 --> 0:01:20.196 authors and actors have been canceled for unacceptable and problematic 0:01:20.236 --> 0:01:25.876 behavior such as racist tweets, inappropriate comments, jokes, allegations of 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:30.876 sexual misconduct or violence, transphobic and homophobic opinions, and more. 0:01:31.516 --> 0:01:34.636 While the reasons for canceling vary. The quick and indignant 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:38.116 anger and the mob's desire for swift action hasn't changed. 0:01:38.516 --> 0:01:41.436 But is it right to cancel people? Actually, we don't 0:01:41.476 --> 0:01:44.916 want to cancel people who want to cancel ways of thinking. 0:01:45.676 --> 0:01:48.156 Adrian Marie Brown is the author of We Will Not 0:01:48.276 --> 0:01:52.236 Cancel Us and Other Dreams of Transformative Justice. The culture 0:01:52.316 --> 0:01:59.196 of disposability is a solvable problem, Adrian. You first made 0:01:59.196 --> 0:02:02.516 your thoughts public on cancel culture through a post on 0:02:02.556 --> 0:02:06.196 your website, and that post was entitled Unthinkable Thoughts call 0:02:06.236 --> 0:02:09.076 out culture in the Age of COVID nineteen. What made 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:12.836 you decide to write that then? Well, I had been away, 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:16.956 I was on sabbatical, and I've been doing like movement 0:02:17.036 --> 0:02:21.556 related work, organizing for social change, environmental change, economic justice 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:25.276 for like twenty five years, And when I came back, 0:02:25.396 --> 0:02:28.436 I was inundated with all these messages from people calling 0:02:28.516 --> 0:02:33.276 for the cancelation or deep platforming or something else. Of 0:02:34.316 --> 0:02:37.796 all these people, and none of them were people that 0:02:37.836 --> 0:02:40.956 I necessarily knew. None of them were people that I 0:02:40.996 --> 0:02:43.636 was like, Oh, I understand how to hold this person accountable. 0:02:44.156 --> 0:02:49.316 They weren't people of massive power, and so I got 0:02:49.476 --> 0:02:51.876 concerned about that, you know, I was like, well, what's 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:55.756 happening inside of movement that we are not engaging in 0:02:55.796 --> 0:02:59.076 healthy conflict with each other and figuring out what these 0:02:59.076 --> 0:03:02.516 differences are about, and you know, just having the conversations 0:03:02.516 --> 0:03:05.396 with you to have what's happening that our main way 0:03:05.396 --> 0:03:08.596 of engaging with each other when we do disagree or 0:03:08.596 --> 0:03:12.036 when harm happens is to do a public call out. 0:03:12.476 --> 0:03:14.436 I was worried about that on a lot of levels, 0:03:14.476 --> 0:03:18.116 so I started writing about it, and the very idea 0:03:18.156 --> 0:03:20.356 that I felt nervous to write about it, even that 0:03:20.756 --> 0:03:23.156 felt intriguing to me as someone who you know, I'm like, 0:03:23.316 --> 0:03:26.436 we're trying to fight against people who don't want us 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:31.716 to live, and in that scenario, I should never feel 0:03:31.716 --> 0:03:34.356 worried about trying to be in any conversation like we've 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:36.236 got to figure this out because we have to survive. 0:03:36.996 --> 0:03:41.316 I posted the initial blog, which was quite long, and 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:45.396 the feedback made me convinced that it would be well 0:03:45.436 --> 0:03:48.036 served as a book. The book is We Will Not 0:03:48.116 --> 0:03:52.596 Cancel Us. Who was us to us? That I was 0:03:52.676 --> 0:03:55.636 really thinking of was people who are in social justice movements, 0:03:56.156 --> 0:04:00.396 people who are in space or they've said we are abolitionists, 0:04:00.396 --> 0:04:04.116 we are a feminists, we are post capitalists. We're trying 0:04:04.156 --> 0:04:05.676 to figure out a different way of being in a 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:10.316 relationship to this planet that is respectful, that will sustain us, 0:04:10.516 --> 0:04:15.076 particularly inside of that pocket, the abolitionist space, you know, 0:04:15.116 --> 0:04:17.996 those of us who believe that there is a way 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:20.236 that we can be on this planet as a human 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:24.236 species that doesn't involve prisons and policing, which is in 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:28.236 the lineage of slavery. Right, there's this body of us 0:04:28.236 --> 0:04:32.516 who believe that, and we're trying to hold down movement 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:35.116 and create movement to be a space where that's the practice. 0:04:35.156 --> 0:04:38.396 But we're still actually doing these highly punitive measures with 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:41.116 each other. And so that was the call. We have 0:04:41.156 --> 0:04:43.036 to figure out how to do this some other way 0:04:43.356 --> 0:04:46.956 so that we can break this pattern of disposability. Talk 0:04:46.996 --> 0:04:50.556 a little bit about how you envision transformative and restorative 0:04:50.596 --> 0:04:54.836 justice being a way to replace punitive justice. When someone 0:04:54.876 --> 0:04:57.516 does something wrong, we punish them in any number of ways, 0:04:58.076 --> 0:05:00.996 corporal punishment. We take away their freedom, we take away 0:05:01.036 --> 0:05:04.716 their right to vote. We sometimes physically injure them with 0:05:04.916 --> 0:05:07.676 the death penalty, you know. And it is this binary 0:05:07.676 --> 0:05:09.796 where people are good or bad, meaning that they are 0:05:09.836 --> 0:05:13.356 deserving or not deserving a punishment. If that worked, if 0:05:13.396 --> 0:05:17.796 that worldview worked, then especially with the amount that we have, 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:21.476 in particularly the US invested in the prison system, we 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:25.156 should be crime free without harm. Because we punish so 0:05:25.276 --> 0:05:30.516 professionally and so thoroughly, it doesn't work, It doesn't actually 0:05:30.556 --> 0:05:33.836 stop harm from happening. And if you focus on how 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:36.956 would we stop the harm from happening, then these models 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:41.316 of restorative justice and transformative justice emerge or can be remembered. 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.316 A lot of these are ways that people long before 0:05:44.436 --> 0:05:49.596 capitalism and colonialism took over the way the world functioned. 0:05:50.076 --> 0:05:52.516 There have been cultures that had other ways of dealing 0:05:52.516 --> 0:05:55.916 with harm when it happened, dealing with conflict when it 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:58.996 came up. And those ways are both old and ones 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.156 that we need to relearn, and they involve mediation. Being 0:06:02.156 --> 0:06:05.076 able to sit and be held in a conversation that 0:06:05.156 --> 0:06:07.716 you can't handle one to one, have someone else there 0:06:07.756 --> 0:06:10.956 to help move it along, and find the places where 0:06:11.036 --> 0:06:13.596 there's an opening when it feels like it's all a wall. 0:06:14.316 --> 0:06:20.196 There's community circles, community accountability processes where an entire body 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:23.916 or community can sit and hold both are all members 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:27.196 of a conflict or a harm and find out what 0:06:27.396 --> 0:06:31.476 is the right move forward, what would actually bring some 0:06:31.516 --> 0:06:35.116 closure and allow healing to begin in the circumstance being 0:06:35.116 --> 0:06:37.916 able to truly hear each other, being able to truly listen, 0:06:38.636 --> 0:06:41.876 and the idea that people can change. People are always 0:06:41.996 --> 0:06:45.236 changing everything that you're saying. It makes sense when you 0:06:45.356 --> 0:06:48.556 talk about in movement, when you're talking about marginalized folks, 0:06:48.596 --> 0:06:51.476 when you're talking about folks fighting for justice within the community. 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:54.516 But cancel culture is something that it's been coming up 0:06:54.516 --> 0:06:57.156 a lot recently, and there's been a prominent comedian, there's 0:06:57.156 --> 0:07:01.956 been a prominent wrapper, there's been prominent folks. Yeah, there's 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:06.596 been some prominence out there. How do we reconcile the 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:10.156 members people who are members of marginalized community but in 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:20.156 some ways are not necessarily fighting on our teams the 0:07:20.236 --> 0:07:24.116 teams of folks that are fighting for justice to us. Yeah, yeah, 0:07:24.156 --> 0:07:25.596 I mean, I think one of the things that gets 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:28.276 teased out with this is how non monolithic we are, 0:07:28.796 --> 0:07:31.076 And I think that's always important for people to understand 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:34.756 because then the people that we are organizing amongst and 0:07:34.836 --> 0:07:38.356 with and for are also non monolithic. And what we 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:41.076 have to do is beat in the conversations if we 0:07:41.116 --> 0:07:45.236 care about them, you know. So to me, there's always 0:07:45.276 --> 0:07:48.356 a question of are we calling for this person's cancelation 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:52.516 because they're causing harm to us? What's actually happening? You know? 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:55.036 So I look at and R Kelly and I'm like, 0:07:55.876 --> 0:07:59.156 the call there for a cancelation or amusing R Kelly 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:03.276 is related to staunching the economic flow that supports him 0:08:03.316 --> 0:08:08.556 doing ongoing visceral harm to young girls. And because of 0:08:08.556 --> 0:08:11.636 the resource is that he has access to, he can 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.676 just continue to act. So something else has to stop him, 0:08:14.796 --> 0:08:18.596 right and right, right now, the only move we have 0:08:18.676 --> 0:08:22.916 to stop someone at that level is actually prison, Right, 0:08:22.996 --> 0:08:26.076 it's not cancelation because what we see when people get 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:29.076 canceled is in a lot of ways, it feeds them. 0:08:29.196 --> 0:08:32.036 It's like more and more attention moves towards them. It 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:35.556 allows the people who are also staunchly ignorant in the 0:08:35.596 --> 0:08:40.276 same ways, right, like emotionally ignorant, spiritually ignorant, you know, 0:08:40.316 --> 0:08:45.436 economically ignorant, whichever one it is, transphobic, right, it's whichever 0:08:45.556 --> 0:08:48.316 thing they're sitting in. It allows the people who also 0:08:48.396 --> 0:08:50.636 believe that to flock towards them and for them to 0:08:50.676 --> 0:08:53.716 gather together. So that's part of it to be as 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:56.356 I'm just like, it doesn't work, It doesn't work the 0:08:56.396 --> 0:08:59.276 way we would want it to work. And I have 0:08:59.436 --> 0:09:03.116 seen it work when we're talking about corporations where there's 0:09:03.116 --> 0:09:06.396 a specific ask that's meatable. You know, when that Chappelle 0:09:06.476 --> 0:09:08.876 special came out and everybody's like, whoa you know, having 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:13.316 this response, Ashley Marie pressed it is this incredible black 0:09:13.356 --> 0:09:17.116 trans organizer, and she was just like, we don't actually 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:20.316 want to cancel anyone. We want to have a transformative conversation. 0:09:20.596 --> 0:09:22.476 We think that it is possible to move from here 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:25.676 beyond this. We don't want the conversation with him, We 0:09:25.716 --> 0:09:28.556 want it with Netflix. We want it with the entity, 0:09:28.716 --> 0:09:31.676 the structure that is upholding the culture that allows for 0:09:31.676 --> 0:09:35.116 these decisions to happen. So just the like moving from 0:09:35.196 --> 0:09:38.236 the very specific, you know, the way cancelation makes it 0:09:38.236 --> 0:09:41.356 seem like one person is responsible for an entire system 0:09:41.396 --> 0:09:45.116 of behavior. We never get at the system, and it 0:09:45.156 --> 0:09:47.316 allows us to be off the hook that we are 0:09:47.356 --> 0:09:51.396 all participating in the same systems. Right, So what I'm 0:09:51.436 --> 0:09:54.436 interested in is something that says we're all actually responsible 0:09:54.436 --> 0:09:57.836 for these behaviors, all of them. Child sexual abuse happens 0:09:57.876 --> 0:10:00.196 because many of us look the other way when we 0:10:00.236 --> 0:10:04.036 need to look more closely. Right, rape, sexual assault that 0:10:04.076 --> 0:10:06.956 happens in our communities because we don't listen to the 0:10:07.036 --> 0:10:10.316 survivors because we can, I reckon that the person that 0:10:10.396 --> 0:10:12.796 we love, these men that we love, these people that 0:10:12.836 --> 0:10:15.516 we love, are also doing these things that we hate. 0:10:16.316 --> 0:10:20.396 You know, we participate, we uphold, we look away, we're quiet. 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:24.556 And so this error that we're living in me too, 0:10:24.716 --> 0:10:29.076 and Black Lives Matter putting a pressure on this pressure 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:32.236 means actually, we don't want to cancel people. We want 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:39.076 to cancel ways of thinking. I like it makes sense 0:10:39.116 --> 0:10:41.036 when you say it to me, like it makes sense, 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:45.356 and I support it. I really do. I wholeheartedly support it. 0:10:45.716 --> 0:10:48.796 And I think the hardest part of this is to 0:10:48.876 --> 0:10:51.396 look in the medium and to listen to someone say, oh, 0:10:51.436 --> 0:10:53.556 they're trying to cancel me, they're trying to do this 0:10:53.756 --> 0:10:59.476 all that, and avoid the actual responsibility that you have 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:04.316 to engage these conversations. So how do we get there? 0:11:04.876 --> 0:11:06.956 Because we know I know that like the most of 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:09.676 the fuel behind somebody like Dave Chappelle, most of the 0:11:09.676 --> 0:11:12.956 fuel behind them comes from a lot of transphobia, a 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:17.436 lot of homophobia, and nobody wants to engage those conversations. 0:11:17.676 --> 0:11:19.676 How do we get them seated at the table? Yeah, 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:23.356 I mean one of the things is, and I'll say this, 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:28.916 I was really politically shaped by Grace Lee Bogs in Detroit, 0:11:28.956 --> 0:11:30.756 and one of the things she taught me was that 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:33.876 we must transform ourselves to transform the world. And this 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:35.716 kind of blew my mind because I was very much 0:11:35.756 --> 0:11:38.316 oriented towards like, when we see that someone is acting 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:41.116 out of alignment, we have to fix them. We have 0:11:41.156 --> 0:11:43.316 to get them together right. We have to get them right. 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:46.436 And the harder work is we have to get ourselves together. 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:49.236 We have to figure out why the person thinks it's 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:52.196 okay to behave this way around us. Right, Like when 0:11:52.196 --> 0:11:54.116 we witness racism, even we're like, I didn't do the 0:11:54.196 --> 0:11:56.356 racist thing, but it's like you witness the racist thing, 0:11:56.716 --> 0:11:59.756 and something in the way you responded made it okay 0:11:59.836 --> 0:12:02.876 for that racist thing to continue and to persist. Right 0:12:03.516 --> 0:12:06.916 with Same with homophobias, same with transphobias, same with all 0:12:06.956 --> 0:12:11.676 of these patterns of behavior, Same with sexual harassment. So 0:12:11.716 --> 0:12:15.556 many places we allow it. So a lot of the practices, 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:17.636 you know, in some dream World. Yeah, it would be 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:20.316 great to get Chappelle to sit down with trans people 0:12:20.316 --> 0:12:23.556 and really hear and really take in the way that 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:26.156 it hurts. You know. I heard him say, you know, 0:12:26.356 --> 0:12:29.076 I'm not going to cause any more harm. I'll stop 0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:32.316 telling his jokes until we can laugh together. Right, It's like, okay, 0:12:32.316 --> 0:12:35.356 so you knew that and you did this whole thing. Anyway, 0:12:35.636 --> 0:12:37.756 we can't wait for that. If we wait for that, 0:12:37.796 --> 0:12:40.276 we'll be waiting forever. Right, We're waiting for someone who 0:12:40.356 --> 0:12:42.796 is in a position of privilege and power to of 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:47.316 their own volition relinquish that. Yeah. Right, it's never going 0:12:47.396 --> 0:12:49.916 to happen, like any move will be to protect that 0:12:49.996 --> 0:12:52.996 space that they've achieved. Instead, we have to have the 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:56.356 conversations amongst ourselves that make it impossible for the people 0:12:56.396 --> 0:12:58.956 to be up on such pedestals. Anyway. We have the 0:12:58.956 --> 0:13:02.076 conversations amongst ourselves that are like, how we practice with 0:13:02.116 --> 0:13:04.676 each other is what allows trans phobia to persist or 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:07.876 not persist. So when we feel our friends saying, oh 0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:10.796 the special was fine, great, let me have the conversation 0:13:10.836 --> 0:13:15.716 with you. Let me have the conversation with you, right, 0:13:16.156 --> 0:13:17.956 and to be like I'm going to get in the 0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:20.156 boat with you, and I'm not going to say you're wrong. 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:22.436 I'm going to say here's how it felt for me 0:13:22.436 --> 0:13:26.116 and listening to it. Yeah, right, we model something different 0:13:26.156 --> 0:13:29.476 where it's like, I'm not interested in canceling everyone in 0:13:29.516 --> 0:13:32.916 the world who thought that specialists fine, I'm interested in 0:13:33.276 --> 0:13:36.836 reaching into that place where their humanity is disconnected, you know, 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:39.876 and they're not able to see trans people inside of that. Yeah, 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:41.636 I want to feel like, how do I use this 0:13:41.676 --> 0:13:44.636 as an opportunity to reconnect that that humanity, that little 0:13:44.676 --> 0:13:47.116 piece right there. And that goes back to what you're 0:13:47.116 --> 0:13:50.716 saying about being restorative and bringing them back into exactly 0:13:50.716 --> 0:13:54.796 because we are actually a one entity no matter where 0:13:54.876 --> 0:13:57.316 in human time and history. We are like the species. 0:13:57.436 --> 0:14:00.516 What we understand about all species is we function together. 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:03.076 The bees. It's not like the bees are just like, oh, 0:14:03.116 --> 0:14:04.916 five of us will go extinct. No, it's like, you know, 0:14:04.956 --> 0:14:06.676 the conditions work for all of us, or they don't 0:14:06.716 --> 0:14:09.356 work for us. And that's the thing our species has 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:12.716 not mastered. We still think that somehow we'll do hierarchy 0:14:12.756 --> 0:14:15.516 and any of us will survive. We have to survive 0:14:15.556 --> 0:14:19.236 together or we won't make it. And so it's constantly 0:14:19.236 --> 0:14:22.276 trying to get people to understand, to remember that which 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:25.476 we already knew, and then there were wounds and wounds 0:14:25.476 --> 0:14:29.676 and wounds. If we restore enough, we'll understand we're all together. 0:14:29.676 --> 0:14:31.356 And I think that's when the aliens will call us 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.356 and be like, Okay, I'll figure it out. You are humans. 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:44.356 You're humans, got it? Finally some adventures for you that. Yeah. 0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:46.796 So there's a quote from your book and it says, 0:14:46.796 --> 0:14:48.716 I want to invite us to get excellent at being 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:51.956 in conflict, which is a healthy, natural part of being 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:56.076 human and biodiverse. And I like this quote because it 0:14:56.156 --> 0:14:59.756 does invite for challenging conversations and for us to have tension. 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:03.636 My question about this one is there are people who 0:15:03.636 --> 0:15:07.596 are going to say this in defense of harmful statements, 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:10.676 in defense of a people, you know, doing things that 0:15:10.676 --> 0:15:13.596 are enacting harm in the community, And how do we 0:15:13.996 --> 0:15:17.396 not let them weaponize conflict in a way that's not healthy. 0:15:18.156 --> 0:15:21.036 I think that's really I love this question because I 0:15:21.076 --> 0:15:23.236 feel like if I hadn't seen it in nature, I 0:15:23.236 --> 0:15:26.436 don't know that I would understand the answer to it. 0:15:26.556 --> 0:15:29.116 And I feel like it's only by recognizing, like humans 0:15:29.156 --> 0:15:34.196 our nature, and nature has some fundamental rules amongst them. 0:15:34.716 --> 0:15:36.996 That difference is actually one of the things that creates 0:15:36.996 --> 0:15:42.196 a healthy ecosystem. The differences in an ecosystem nourish each other. 0:15:42.356 --> 0:15:45.836 Symbiosis emerges, and that's when life really is popping. Like 0:15:45.916 --> 0:15:49.356 those are the that's they're like, oh, we rain for us, Okay, 0:15:49.396 --> 0:15:52.356 you know, like it's exciting right to be there. But 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:55.876 if there's something that is toxic to that system, then 0:15:56.156 --> 0:16:00.596 literally the entire ecosystem organizes itself to protect itself and 0:16:00.716 --> 0:16:03.556 to really keep that toxic substance out. And I think 0:16:03.636 --> 0:16:06.636 we have to look at it that way. It's like I, 0:16:06.956 --> 0:16:08.956 for me, I don't think that a person can be 0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:13.036 that toxic substance, but I think people's ideas and behaviors 0:16:13.076 --> 0:16:16.036 can bring that toxicity into community. And I think that's 0:16:16.076 --> 0:16:17.796 where then we have to be able to say, hold on, 0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:21.836 we don't allow that behavior in this space. Can you 0:16:21.956 --> 0:16:25.956 let that behavior go? We see in nature all the 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:29.516 time things can be restored. There is healing that is possible. 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:31.916 This is one of the ways that humans used to 0:16:31.956 --> 0:16:35.436 be in a much more symbiotic, wholesome relationship with Earth, 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:38.676 is that we used to for instance, when we were 0:16:39.156 --> 0:16:42.356 gathering wood, we would cut a portion from the tree, 0:16:42.596 --> 0:16:45.356 not cut down a tree, so that the tree remained 0:16:45.476 --> 0:16:47.876 and it gave what it could give and continue growing. 0:16:48.396 --> 0:16:50.236 If we think of it that way, where it's like, Okay, 0:16:50.476 --> 0:16:54.636 everything can handle some portion being taken away, what is 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:58.356 it for us? I think that we get lost in this. 0:16:59.076 --> 0:17:02.396 I feel like, as humans, we think our biodiversity is 0:17:02.396 --> 0:17:05.996 a weakness, and that if we are in spaces where 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:09.396 many of us or many ideas thrive, we're gonna we're 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:10.836 going to fight with each other in a way that's 0:17:10.876 --> 0:17:13.316 so uncomfortable we can't bear it. But I'm like, we 0:17:13.316 --> 0:17:16.756 should at least try it. We should try being uncomfortable. 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:20.556 The discomfort is usually because there's an old idea or 0:17:20.556 --> 0:17:23.236 an old way of being that is too small for 0:17:23.276 --> 0:17:26.396 who your spirit and soul actually want to be. We 0:17:26.716 --> 0:17:29.756 constantly expand over the course of our lives. Our minds, 0:17:29.796 --> 0:17:34.036 our comprehension, our ability to handle difference expands more and more. 0:17:34.476 --> 0:17:37.396 That's the beauty of our species. So that to me 0:17:37.476 --> 0:17:41.156 is what's inside of it. Is like, the idea is 0:17:41.196 --> 0:17:43.636 to have as much biodiversity, as much difference in the 0:17:43.676 --> 0:17:46.716 community as possible. But not to allow harm to persist 0:17:46.796 --> 0:18:01.676 in the community, because the harm impacts the entire ecosystem negatively. Adrian, 0:18:01.716 --> 0:18:03.476 one of the things I really enjoined in your book 0:18:03.556 --> 0:18:06.956 was that you talked about when a callout can be useful. 0:18:07.076 --> 0:18:09.516 You say callouts can feel most powerful full when they 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:12.596 are used with their tactical intention for those with less 0:18:12.636 --> 0:18:16.876 positional political, economic, or other power to demand accountability to 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:20.556 stop harm or abuse, which I appreciate, and I think 0:18:20.556 --> 0:18:22.436 you laid that out perfectly with the way that you 0:18:22.476 --> 0:18:25.876 were talking about r Kelly, how do we make the 0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:30.756 distinction between call out, cancelation, and consequences because I hear 0:18:30.796 --> 0:18:33.836 all three of them being used interchangeably, especially in media 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.196 and especially by people who are trying to get themselves 0:18:37.276 --> 0:18:40.636 out of consequences. Oh, I love it. I think we're 0:18:40.636 --> 0:18:42.756 still in the birthing stages of figuring out what all 0:18:42.796 --> 0:18:45.076 these things are. And that's why people are like, it's 0:18:45.076 --> 0:18:47.116 a whole culture of this, it's a whole culture of that. 0:18:47.156 --> 0:18:49.596 I'm like, yes, this is in the culture. You know, 0:18:49.636 --> 0:18:53.756 we are in some ways. Cancelation is in the culture, right, 0:18:53.836 --> 0:18:57.196 and the culture is steeped in a punitive culture. So 0:18:57.236 --> 0:18:59.316 it's like cancelation is just the peak of a certain 0:18:59.396 --> 0:19:01.916 kind of wave that's happening in the culture, but it's 0:19:01.956 --> 0:19:04.036 not the only thing that's happening in the culture. And 0:19:04.076 --> 0:19:06.716 I think what we actually need is an accountability culture 0:19:06.836 --> 0:19:09.996 or a culture of consequences where it's like, oh, it's 0:19:10.036 --> 0:19:12.116 true that you actually did this thing. We know that 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:15.036 it's true, and here's something, here's what a consequence can 0:19:15.036 --> 0:19:17.356 actually look like. When I think of a call out, 0:19:17.876 --> 0:19:21.036 the call out functions as an isolating tool instead of 0:19:21.036 --> 0:19:23.996 a tool of community. And I think that's where when 0:19:24.036 --> 0:19:26.636 some people use the terms call in, the idea is 0:19:26.636 --> 0:19:29.276 like it's actually supposed to be bringing people deeper into community, 0:19:29.316 --> 0:19:32.196 into a space where they can actually be held, versus, 0:19:32.876 --> 0:19:34.636 you know, something where it's like we actually don't want 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:38.596 this person have access to community. I think a consequence though, 0:19:39.076 --> 0:19:40.756 to me, a consequence is when it's like, oh, I 0:19:40.756 --> 0:19:43.316 can draw a direct line, like I really can see 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:47.116 this consequence makes sense based on what happened. You know 0:19:47.156 --> 0:19:50.076 what this person did. And I think a lot of 0:19:50.076 --> 0:19:54.276 times what we're missing is there's no veracity around what 0:19:54.396 --> 0:19:58.876 actually happened. We don't know, right, and then there's no 0:19:59.276 --> 0:20:01.516 clarity on like, what is the consequence. Is it taking 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:05.116 one year out of the spotlight? You know, is it 0:20:05.196 --> 0:20:07.716 taking a year off of Instagram or whatever? Because that's 0:20:07.716 --> 0:20:09.556 about you know what I've been noted sing as the 0:20:09.596 --> 0:20:12.316 patterns people kind of dip out for a year and 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:16.516 then you see them come back like everything's great, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:18.796 we don't talk about that other thing. Yeah we don't, 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:20.956 you know, and a lot of and they just move on. 0:20:20.996 --> 0:20:23.436 So I'm like, we need I'm always interested in like 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:26.836 what actually works. If that strategy worked, you know, if 0:20:26.876 --> 0:20:30.276 it was like dang, we called these people out and 0:20:30.356 --> 0:20:34.916 rape just stopped, like it's not happening anymore. This really worked? 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:38.036 You know. Miriam Kabba is someone that I always point 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:42.716 people towards. She is an incredible teacher around abolition, particularly 0:20:42.796 --> 0:20:46.836 prison abolition, and she really talks about that long, long 0:20:46.956 --> 0:20:51.156 pattern of harm doing continues in spite of this system 0:20:51.156 --> 0:20:54.436 of punitive justice, you know, in spite of all those efforts, 0:20:54.716 --> 0:20:56.276 and she's like, we should just be focused on how 0:20:56.276 --> 0:20:59.676 we end the harm. That's the only measure. Did the 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:01.756 harm end or did it not end? And I think 0:21:01.756 --> 0:21:04.396 that helps in a lot of these conversations because people 0:21:04.396 --> 0:21:07.676 get into some moral high ground space, and I'm like, 0:21:07.876 --> 0:21:12.356 it's not working, you know, like fundamentally it's not working, 0:21:12.476 --> 0:21:17.516 so it can't be the right way. I can talk 0:21:17.556 --> 0:21:20.116 about this with you or I really appreciate you writing 0:21:20.156 --> 0:21:22.956 this book. Adrian Murrie Brown, thank you so much for 0:21:23.036 --> 0:21:25.476 being with us today. Wow, thank you for having me. 0:21:25.636 --> 0:21:29.356 This is a great conversation. Adrian Marie Brown is the 0:21:29.356 --> 0:21:31.636 author of We Will Not Cancel Us and Other Dreams 0:21:31.636 --> 0:21:35.116 of Transformative Justice. She's the co host of the podcasts 0:21:35.116 --> 0:21:38.156 How to Survive the End of the World, Octavia's Parables 0:21:38.276 --> 0:21:41.956 and Emergent Strategy Listeners. If you want to learn more 0:21:41.956 --> 0:21:45.156 about the solutions we talked about today, I highly recommend 0:21:45.316 --> 0:21:48.956 Adrian's book We Will Not Cancel Us, and you could 0:21:48.956 --> 0:21:51.156 find links to her other books, as well as articles 0:21:51.156 --> 0:21:56.356 on conflict resolution, restorative justice practices, truth and reconciliation, non 0:21:56.476 --> 0:21:59.636 violent communication, and to more information about the leaders and 0:21:59.716 --> 0:22:03.316 mentors Brown mentioned in this conversation. They're all in our 0:22:03.356 --> 0:22:07.516 show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by 0:22:07.596 --> 0:22:12.156 David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn, editing help from Keshelle Williams. 0:22:12.796 --> 0:22:15.476 Very special thanks to Tanzina Vega for pointing me to 0:22:15.556 --> 0:22:19.196 Adrian Marie Brown's work. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, 0:22:19.356 --> 0:22:22.316 and our executive producer is Mio La Belle. I'm Ronald 0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:23.996 Young Junior. Thanks for listening.