1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The way 2 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:27,276 Speaker 1: cancelation makes it seem like one person is responsible for 3 00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:31,756 Speaker 1: an entire system of behavior, we never get at the system, 4 00:00:31,796 --> 00:00:33,876 Speaker 1: and it allows us to be off the hook that 5 00:00:33,996 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 1: we are all participating in the same systems. You may 6 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 1: have heard them cancel culture a few or many many 7 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:45,196 Speaker 1: times before. According to Urban Dictionary, cancel culture is defined 8 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:48,756 Speaker 1: as a modern Internet phenomenon where a person is ejected 9 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:53,076 Speaker 1: from influencer fame due to questionable actions. It seemed by 10 00:00:53,156 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: some as a way to hold public figures with power 11 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 1: accountable for their actions, while others see it as the 12 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: new mob mentality. But people have been canceling other people 13 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 1: through the ages. Think back to the nineteen fifties with 14 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:09,316 Speaker 1: Senator Joseph McCarthy blacklisting folks he deemed on a mark, 15 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:15,716 Speaker 1: and even further back to the Salem witch trials. These days, comedians, politicians, 16 00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:20,196 Speaker 1: authors and actors have been canceled for unacceptable and problematic 17 00:01:20,236 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: behavior such as racist tweets, inappropriate comments, jokes, allegations of 18 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: sexual misconduct or violence, transphobic and homophobic opinions, and more. 19 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:34,636 Speaker 1: While the reasons for canceling vary. The quick and indignant 20 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 1: anger and the mob's desire for swift action hasn't changed. 21 00:01:38,516 --> 00:01:41,436 Speaker 1: But is it right to cancel people? Actually, we don't 22 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 1: want to cancel people who want to cancel ways of thinking. 23 00:01:45,676 --> 00:01:48,156 Speaker 1: Adrian Marie Brown is the author of We Will Not 24 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 1: Cancel Us and Other Dreams of Transformative Justice. The culture 25 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:59,196 Speaker 1: of disposability is a solvable problem, Adrian. You first made 26 00:01:59,196 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: your thoughts public on cancel culture through a post on 27 00:02:02,556 --> 00:02:06,196 Speaker 1: your website, and that post was entitled Unthinkable Thoughts call 28 00:02:06,236 --> 00:02:09,076 Speaker 1: out culture in the Age of COVID nineteen. What made 29 00:02:09,236 --> 00:02:12,836 Speaker 1: you decide to write that then? Well, I had been away, 30 00:02:12,996 --> 00:02:16,956 Speaker 1: I was on sabbatical, and I've been doing like movement 31 00:02:17,036 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: related work, organizing for social change, environmental change, economic justice 32 00:02:22,236 --> 00:02:25,276 Speaker 1: for like twenty five years, And when I came back, 33 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:28,436 Speaker 1: I was inundated with all these messages from people calling 34 00:02:28,516 --> 00:02:33,276 Speaker 1: for the cancelation or deep platforming or something else. Of 35 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 1: all these people, and none of them were people that 36 00:02:37,836 --> 00:02:40,956 Speaker 1: I necessarily knew. None of them were people that I 37 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I understand how to hold this person accountable. 38 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:49,316 Speaker 1: They weren't people of massive power, and so I got 39 00:02:49,476 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 1: concerned about that, you know, I was like, well, what's 40 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 1: happening inside of movement that we are not engaging in 41 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 1: healthy conflict with each other and figuring out what these 42 00:02:59,076 --> 00:03:02,516 Speaker 1: differences are about, and you know, just having the conversations 43 00:03:02,516 --> 00:03:05,396 Speaker 1: with you to have what's happening that our main way 44 00:03:05,396 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 1: of engaging with each other when we do disagree or 45 00:03:08,596 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 1: when harm happens is to do a public call out. 46 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 1: I was worried about that on a lot of levels, 47 00:03:14,476 --> 00:03:18,116 Speaker 1: so I started writing about it, and the very idea 48 00:03:18,156 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 1: that I felt nervous to write about it, even that 49 00:03:20,756 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 1: felt intriguing to me as someone who you know, I'm like, 50 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:26,436 Speaker 1: we're trying to fight against people who don't want us 51 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 1: to live, and in that scenario, I should never feel 52 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 1: worried about trying to be in any conversation like we've 53 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:36,236 Speaker 1: got to figure this out because we have to survive. 54 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 1: I posted the initial blog, which was quite long, and 55 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:45,396 Speaker 1: the feedback made me convinced that it would be well 56 00:03:45,436 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 1: served as a book. The book is We Will Not 57 00:03:48,116 --> 00:03:52,596 Speaker 1: Cancel Us. Who was us to us? That I was 58 00:03:52,676 --> 00:03:55,636 Speaker 1: really thinking of was people who are in social justice movements, 59 00:03:56,156 --> 00:04:00,396 Speaker 1: people who are in space or they've said we are abolitionists, 60 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 1: we are a feminists, we are post capitalists. We're trying 61 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: to figure out a different way of being in a 62 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: relationship to this planet that is respectful, that will sustain us, 63 00:04:10,516 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 1: particularly inside of that pocket, the abolitionist space, you know, 64 00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:17,996 Speaker 1: those of us who believe that there is a way 65 00:04:18,036 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 1: that we can be on this planet as a human 66 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 1: species that doesn't involve prisons and policing, which is in 67 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:28,236 Speaker 1: the lineage of slavery. Right, there's this body of us 68 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:32,516 Speaker 1: who believe that, and we're trying to hold down movement 69 00:04:32,556 --> 00:04:35,116 Speaker 1: and create movement to be a space where that's the practice. 70 00:04:35,156 --> 00:04:38,396 Speaker 1: But we're still actually doing these highly punitive measures with 71 00:04:38,436 --> 00:04:41,116 Speaker 1: each other. And so that was the call. We have 72 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 1: to figure out how to do this some other way 73 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: so that we can break this pattern of disposability. Talk 74 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,556 Speaker 1: a little bit about how you envision transformative and restorative 75 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:54,836 Speaker 1: justice being a way to replace punitive justice. When someone 76 00:04:54,876 --> 00:04:57,516 Speaker 1: does something wrong, we punish them in any number of ways, 77 00:04:58,076 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: corporal punishment. We take away their freedom, we take away 78 00:05:01,036 --> 00:05:04,716 Speaker 1: their right to vote. We sometimes physically injure them with 79 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 1: the death penalty, you know. And it is this binary 80 00:05:07,676 --> 00:05:09,796 Speaker 1: where people are good or bad, meaning that they are 81 00:05:09,836 --> 00:05:13,356 Speaker 1: deserving or not deserving a punishment. If that worked, if 82 00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:17,796 Speaker 1: that worldview worked, then especially with the amount that we have, 83 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:21,476 Speaker 1: in particularly the US invested in the prison system, we 84 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:25,156 Speaker 1: should be crime free without harm. Because we punish so 85 00:05:25,276 --> 00:05:30,516 Speaker 1: professionally and so thoroughly, it doesn't work, It doesn't actually 86 00:05:30,556 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 1: stop harm from happening. And if you focus on how 87 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 1: would we stop the harm from happening, then these models 88 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:41,316 Speaker 1: of restorative justice and transformative justice emerge or can be remembered. 89 00:05:41,676 --> 00:05:44,316 Speaker 1: A lot of these are ways that people long before 90 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:49,596 Speaker 1: capitalism and colonialism took over the way the world functioned. 91 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:52,516 Speaker 1: There have been cultures that had other ways of dealing 92 00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:55,916 Speaker 1: with harm when it happened, dealing with conflict when it 93 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 1: came up. And those ways are both old and ones 94 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:02,156 Speaker 1: that we need to relearn, and they involve mediation. Being 95 00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:05,076 Speaker 1: able to sit and be held in a conversation that 96 00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: you can't handle one to one, have someone else there 97 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 1: to help move it along, and find the places where 98 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:13,596 Speaker 1: there's an opening when it feels like it's all a wall. 99 00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:20,196 Speaker 1: There's community circles, community accountability processes where an entire body 100 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:23,916 Speaker 1: or community can sit and hold both are all members 101 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:27,196 Speaker 1: of a conflict or a harm and find out what 102 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:31,476 Speaker 1: is the right move forward, what would actually bring some 103 00:06:31,516 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: closure and allow healing to begin in the circumstance being 104 00:06:35,116 --> 00:06:37,916 Speaker 1: able to truly hear each other, being able to truly listen, 105 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:41,876 Speaker 1: and the idea that people can change. People are always 106 00:06:41,996 --> 00:06:45,236 Speaker 1: changing everything that you're saying. It makes sense when you 107 00:06:45,356 --> 00:06:48,556 Speaker 1: talk about in movement, when you're talking about marginalized folks, 108 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:51,476 Speaker 1: when you're talking about folks fighting for justice within the community. 109 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: But cancel culture is something that it's been coming up 110 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:57,156 Speaker 1: a lot recently, and there's been a prominent comedian, there's 111 00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: been a prominent wrapper, there's been prominent folks. Yeah, there's 112 00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:06,596 Speaker 1: been some prominence out there. How do we reconcile the 113 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: members people who are members of marginalized community but in 114 00:07:10,196 --> 00:07:20,156 Speaker 1: some ways are not necessarily fighting on our teams the 115 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:24,116 Speaker 1: teams of folks that are fighting for justice to us. Yeah, yeah, 116 00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the things that gets 117 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 1: teased out with this is how non monolithic we are, 118 00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: And I think that's always important for people to understand 119 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:34,756 Speaker 1: because then the people that we are organizing amongst and 120 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:38,356 Speaker 1: with and for are also non monolithic. And what we 121 00:07:38,436 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: have to do is beat in the conversations if we 122 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:45,236 Speaker 1: care about them, you know. So to me, there's always 123 00:07:45,276 --> 00:07:48,356 Speaker 1: a question of are we calling for this person's cancelation 124 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 1: because they're causing harm to us? What's actually happening? You know? 125 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 1: So I look at and R Kelly and I'm like, 126 00:07:55,876 --> 00:07:59,156 Speaker 1: the call there for a cancelation or amusing R Kelly 127 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,276 Speaker 1: is related to staunching the economic flow that supports him 128 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 1: doing ongoing visceral harm to young girls. And because of 129 00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:11,636 Speaker 1: the resource is that he has access to, he can 130 00:08:11,676 --> 00:08:14,676 Speaker 1: just continue to act. So something else has to stop him, 131 00:08:14,796 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 1: right and right, right now, the only move we have 132 00:08:18,676 --> 00:08:22,916 Speaker 1: to stop someone at that level is actually prison, Right, 133 00:08:22,996 --> 00:08:26,076 Speaker 1: it's not cancelation because what we see when people get 134 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:29,076 Speaker 1: canceled is in a lot of ways, it feeds them. 135 00:08:29,196 --> 00:08:32,036 Speaker 1: It's like more and more attention moves towards them. It 136 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:35,556 Speaker 1: allows the people who are also staunchly ignorant in the 137 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: same ways, right, like emotionally ignorant, spiritually ignorant, you know, 138 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 1: economically ignorant, whichever one it is, transphobic, right, it's whichever 139 00:08:45,556 --> 00:08:48,316 Speaker 1: thing they're sitting in. It allows the people who also 140 00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:50,636 Speaker 1: believe that to flock towards them and for them to 141 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 1: gather together. So that's part of it to be as 142 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:56,356 Speaker 1: I'm just like, it doesn't work, It doesn't work the 143 00:08:56,396 --> 00:08:59,276 Speaker 1: way we would want it to work. And I have 144 00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 1: seen it work when we're talking about corporations where there's 145 00:09:03,116 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: a specific ask that's meatable. You know, when that Chappelle 146 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 1: special came out and everybody's like, whoa you know, having 147 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 1: this response, Ashley Marie pressed it is this incredible black 148 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:17,116 Speaker 1: trans organizer, and she was just like, we don't actually 149 00:09:17,156 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: want to cancel anyone. We want to have a transformative conversation. 150 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: We think that it is possible to move from here 151 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:25,676 Speaker 1: beyond this. We don't want the conversation with him, We 152 00:09:25,716 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: want it with Netflix. We want it with the entity, 153 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 1: the structure that is upholding the culture that allows for 154 00:09:31,676 --> 00:09:35,116 Speaker 1: these decisions to happen. So just the like moving from 155 00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 1: the very specific, you know, the way cancelation makes it 156 00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:41,356 Speaker 1: seem like one person is responsible for an entire system 157 00:09:41,396 --> 00:09:45,116 Speaker 1: of behavior. We never get at the system, and it 158 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 1: allows us to be off the hook that we are 159 00:09:47,356 --> 00:09:51,396 Speaker 1: all participating in the same systems. Right, So what I'm 160 00:09:51,436 --> 00:09:54,436 Speaker 1: interested in is something that says we're all actually responsible 161 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:57,836 Speaker 1: for these behaviors, all of them. Child sexual abuse happens 162 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: because many of us look the other way when we 163 00:10:00,236 --> 00:10:04,036 Speaker 1: need to look more closely. Right, rape, sexual assault that 164 00:10:04,076 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 1: happens in our communities because we don't listen to the 165 00:10:07,036 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 1: survivors because we can, I reckon that the person that 166 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:12,796 Speaker 1: we love, these men that we love, these people that 167 00:10:12,836 --> 00:10:15,516 Speaker 1: we love, are also doing these things that we hate. 168 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:20,396 Speaker 1: You know, we participate, we uphold, we look away, we're quiet. 169 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:24,556 Speaker 1: And so this error that we're living in me too, 170 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 1: and Black Lives Matter putting a pressure on this pressure 171 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,236 Speaker 1: means actually, we don't want to cancel people. We want 172 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:39,076 Speaker 1: to cancel ways of thinking. I like it makes sense 173 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:41,036 Speaker 1: when you say it to me, like it makes sense, 174 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:45,356 Speaker 1: and I support it. I really do. I wholeheartedly support it. 175 00:10:45,716 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 1: And I think the hardest part of this is to 176 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 1: look in the medium and to listen to someone say, oh, 177 00:10:51,436 --> 00:10:53,556 Speaker 1: they're trying to cancel me, they're trying to do this 178 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:59,476 Speaker 1: all that, and avoid the actual responsibility that you have 179 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:04,316 Speaker 1: to engage these conversations. So how do we get there? 180 00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:06,956 Speaker 1: Because we know I know that like the most of 181 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: the fuel behind somebody like Dave Chappelle, most of the 182 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: fuel behind them comes from a lot of transphobia, a 183 00:11:12,956 --> 00:11:17,436 Speaker 1: lot of homophobia, and nobody wants to engage those conversations. 184 00:11:17,676 --> 00:11:19,676 Speaker 1: How do we get them seated at the table? Yeah, 185 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:23,356 Speaker 1: I mean one of the things is, and I'll say this, 186 00:11:23,476 --> 00:11:28,916 Speaker 1: I was really politically shaped by Grace Lee Bogs in Detroit, 187 00:11:28,956 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 1: and one of the things she taught me was that 188 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:33,876 Speaker 1: we must transform ourselves to transform the world. And this 189 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 1: kind of blew my mind because I was very much 190 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 1: oriented towards like, when we see that someone is acting 191 00:11:38,316 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 1: out of alignment, we have to fix them. We have 192 00:11:41,156 --> 00:11:43,316 Speaker 1: to get them together right. We have to get them right. 193 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:46,436 Speaker 1: And the harder work is we have to get ourselves together. 194 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: We have to figure out why the person thinks it's 195 00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:52,196 Speaker 1: okay to behave this way around us. Right, Like when 196 00:11:52,196 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: we witness racism, even we're like, I didn't do the 197 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:56,356 Speaker 1: racist thing, but it's like you witness the racist thing, 198 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,756 Speaker 1: and something in the way you responded made it okay 199 00:11:59,836 --> 00:12:02,876 Speaker 1: for that racist thing to continue and to persist. Right 200 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 1: with Same with homophobias, same with transphobias, same with all 201 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 1: of these patterns of behavior, Same with sexual harassment. So 202 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 1: many places we allow it. So a lot of the practices, 203 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 1: you know, in some dream World. Yeah, it would be 204 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: great to get Chappelle to sit down with trans people 205 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: and really hear and really take in the way that 206 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:26,156 Speaker 1: it hurts. You know. I heard him say, you know, 207 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:29,076 Speaker 1: I'm not going to cause any more harm. I'll stop 208 00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:32,316 Speaker 1: telling his jokes until we can laugh together. Right, It's like, okay, 209 00:12:32,316 --> 00:12:35,356 Speaker 1: so you knew that and you did this whole thing. Anyway, 210 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 1: we can't wait for that. If we wait for that, 211 00:12:37,796 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 1: we'll be waiting forever. Right, We're waiting for someone who 212 00:12:40,356 --> 00:12:42,796 Speaker 1: is in a position of privilege and power to of 213 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:47,316 Speaker 1: their own volition relinquish that. Yeah. Right, it's never going 214 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: to happen, like any move will be to protect that 215 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:52,996 Speaker 1: space that they've achieved. Instead, we have to have the 216 00:12:53,036 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 1: conversations amongst ourselves that make it impossible for the people 217 00:12:56,396 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 1: to be up on such pedestals. Anyway. We have the 218 00:12:58,956 --> 00:13:02,076 Speaker 1: conversations amongst ourselves that are like, how we practice with 219 00:13:02,116 --> 00:13:04,676 Speaker 1: each other is what allows trans phobia to persist or 220 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:07,876 Speaker 1: not persist. So when we feel our friends saying, oh 221 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 1: the special was fine, great, let me have the conversation 222 00:13:10,836 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 1: with you. Let me have the conversation with you, right, 223 00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:17,956 Speaker 1: and to be like I'm going to get in the 224 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:20,156 Speaker 1: boat with you, and I'm not going to say you're wrong. 225 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:22,436 Speaker 1: I'm going to say here's how it felt for me 226 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:26,116 Speaker 1: and listening to it. Yeah, right, we model something different 227 00:13:26,156 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 1: where it's like, I'm not interested in canceling everyone in 228 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: the world who thought that specialists fine, I'm interested in 229 00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 1: reaching into that place where their humanity is disconnected, you know, 230 00:13:36,876 --> 00:13:39,876 Speaker 1: and they're not able to see trans people inside of that. Yeah, 231 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:41,636 Speaker 1: I want to feel like, how do I use this 232 00:13:41,676 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 1: as an opportunity to reconnect that that humanity, that little 233 00:13:44,676 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: piece right there. And that goes back to what you're 234 00:13:47,116 --> 00:13:50,716 Speaker 1: saying about being restorative and bringing them back into exactly 235 00:13:50,716 --> 00:13:54,796 Speaker 1: because we are actually a one entity no matter where 236 00:13:54,876 --> 00:13:57,316 Speaker 1: in human time and history. We are like the species. 237 00:13:57,436 --> 00:14:00,516 Speaker 1: What we understand about all species is we function together. 238 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:03,076 Speaker 1: The bees. It's not like the bees are just like, oh, 239 00:14:03,116 --> 00:14:04,916 Speaker 1: five of us will go extinct. No, it's like, you know, 240 00:14:04,956 --> 00:14:06,676 Speaker 1: the conditions work for all of us, or they don't 241 00:14:06,716 --> 00:14:09,356 Speaker 1: work for us. And that's the thing our species has 242 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:12,716 Speaker 1: not mastered. We still think that somehow we'll do hierarchy 243 00:14:12,756 --> 00:14:15,516 Speaker 1: and any of us will survive. We have to survive 244 00:14:15,556 --> 00:14:19,236 Speaker 1: together or we won't make it. And so it's constantly 245 00:14:19,236 --> 00:14:22,276 Speaker 1: trying to get people to understand, to remember that which 246 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:25,476 Speaker 1: we already knew, and then there were wounds and wounds 247 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: and wounds. If we restore enough, we'll understand we're all together. 248 00:14:29,676 --> 00:14:31,356 Speaker 1: And I think that's when the aliens will call us 249 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:34,356 Speaker 1: and be like, Okay, I'll figure it out. You are humans. 250 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:44,356 Speaker 1: You're humans, got it? Finally some adventures for you that. Yeah. 251 00:14:44,676 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 1: So there's a quote from your book and it says, 252 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 1: I want to invite us to get excellent at being 253 00:14:48,716 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 1: in conflict, which is a healthy, natural part of being 254 00:14:52,036 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 1: human and biodiverse. And I like this quote because it 255 00:14:56,156 --> 00:14:59,756 Speaker 1: does invite for challenging conversations and for us to have tension. 256 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: My question about this one is there are people who 257 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:07,596 Speaker 1: are going to say this in defense of harmful statements, 258 00:15:08,036 --> 00:15:10,676 Speaker 1: in defense of a people, you know, doing things that 259 00:15:10,676 --> 00:15:13,596 Speaker 1: are enacting harm in the community, And how do we 260 00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: not let them weaponize conflict in a way that's not healthy. 261 00:15:18,156 --> 00:15:21,036 Speaker 1: I think that's really I love this question because I 262 00:15:21,076 --> 00:15:23,236 Speaker 1: feel like if I hadn't seen it in nature, I 263 00:15:23,236 --> 00:15:26,436 Speaker 1: don't know that I would understand the answer to it. 264 00:15:26,556 --> 00:15:29,116 Speaker 1: And I feel like it's only by recognizing, like humans 265 00:15:29,156 --> 00:15:34,196 Speaker 1: our nature, and nature has some fundamental rules amongst them. 266 00:15:34,716 --> 00:15:36,996 Speaker 1: That difference is actually one of the things that creates 267 00:15:36,996 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 1: a healthy ecosystem. The differences in an ecosystem nourish each other. 268 00:15:42,356 --> 00:15:45,836 Speaker 1: Symbiosis emerges, and that's when life really is popping. Like 269 00:15:45,916 --> 00:15:49,356 Speaker 1: those are the that's they're like, oh, we rain for us, Okay, 270 00:15:49,396 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: you know, like it's exciting right to be there. But 271 00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:55,876 Speaker 1: if there's something that is toxic to that system, then 272 00:15:56,156 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 1: literally the entire ecosystem organizes itself to protect itself and 273 00:16:00,716 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 1: to really keep that toxic substance out. And I think 274 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:06,636 Speaker 1: we have to look at it that way. It's like I, 275 00:16:06,956 --> 00:16:08,956 Speaker 1: for me, I don't think that a person can be 276 00:16:09,156 --> 00:16:13,036 Speaker 1: that toxic substance, but I think people's ideas and behaviors 277 00:16:13,076 --> 00:16:16,036 Speaker 1: can bring that toxicity into community. And I think that's 278 00:16:16,076 --> 00:16:17,796 Speaker 1: where then we have to be able to say, hold on, 279 00:16:18,316 --> 00:16:21,836 Speaker 1: we don't allow that behavior in this space. Can you 280 00:16:21,956 --> 00:16:25,956 Speaker 1: let that behavior go? We see in nature all the 281 00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:29,516 Speaker 1: time things can be restored. There is healing that is possible. 282 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:31,916 Speaker 1: This is one of the ways that humans used to 283 00:16:31,956 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 1: be in a much more symbiotic, wholesome relationship with Earth, 284 00:16:35,956 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: is that we used to for instance, when we were 285 00:16:39,156 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 1: gathering wood, we would cut a portion from the tree, 286 00:16:42,596 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 1: not cut down a tree, so that the tree remained 287 00:16:45,476 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 1: and it gave what it could give and continue growing. 288 00:16:48,396 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 1: If we think of it that way, where it's like, Okay, 289 00:16:50,476 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 1: everything can handle some portion being taken away, what is 290 00:16:54,636 --> 00:16:58,356 Speaker 1: it for us? I think that we get lost in this. 291 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 1: I feel like, as humans, we think our biodiversity is 292 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 1: a weakness, and that if we are in spaces where 293 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:09,396 Speaker 1: many of us or many ideas thrive, we're gonna we're 294 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:10,836 Speaker 1: going to fight with each other in a way that's 295 00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:13,316 Speaker 1: so uncomfortable we can't bear it. But I'm like, we 296 00:17:13,316 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 1: should at least try it. We should try being uncomfortable. 297 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:20,556 Speaker 1: The discomfort is usually because there's an old idea or 298 00:17:20,556 --> 00:17:23,236 Speaker 1: an old way of being that is too small for 299 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 1: who your spirit and soul actually want to be. We 300 00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:29,756 Speaker 1: constantly expand over the course of our lives. Our minds, 301 00:17:29,796 --> 00:17:34,036 Speaker 1: our comprehension, our ability to handle difference expands more and more. 302 00:17:34,476 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 1: That's the beauty of our species. So that to me 303 00:17:37,476 --> 00:17:41,156 Speaker 1: is what's inside of it. Is like, the idea is 304 00:17:41,196 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 1: to have as much biodiversity, as much difference in the 305 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: community as possible. But not to allow harm to persist 306 00:17:46,796 --> 00:18:01,676 Speaker 1: in the community, because the harm impacts the entire ecosystem negatively. Adrian, 307 00:18:01,716 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 1: one of the things I really enjoined in your book 308 00:18:03,556 --> 00:18:06,956 Speaker 1: was that you talked about when a callout can be useful. 309 00:18:07,076 --> 00:18:09,516 Speaker 1: You say callouts can feel most powerful full when they 310 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 1: are used with their tactical intention for those with less 311 00:18:12,636 --> 00:18:16,876 Speaker 1: positional political, economic, or other power to demand accountability to 312 00:18:16,956 --> 00:18:20,556 Speaker 1: stop harm or abuse, which I appreciate, and I think 313 00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 1: you laid that out perfectly with the way that you 314 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: were talking about r Kelly, how do we make the 315 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: distinction between call out, cancelation, and consequences because I hear 316 00:18:30,796 --> 00:18:33,836 Speaker 1: all three of them being used interchangeably, especially in media 317 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 1: and especially by people who are trying to get themselves 318 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:40,636 Speaker 1: out of consequences. Oh, I love it. I think we're 319 00:18:40,636 --> 00:18:42,756 Speaker 1: still in the birthing stages of figuring out what all 320 00:18:42,796 --> 00:18:45,076 Speaker 1: these things are. And that's why people are like, it's 321 00:18:45,076 --> 00:18:47,116 Speaker 1: a whole culture of this, it's a whole culture of that. 322 00:18:47,156 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, this is in the culture. You know, 323 00:18:49,636 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 1: we are in some ways. Cancelation is in the culture, right, 324 00:18:53,836 --> 00:18:57,196 Speaker 1: and the culture is steeped in a punitive culture. So 325 00:18:57,236 --> 00:18:59,316 Speaker 1: it's like cancelation is just the peak of a certain 326 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 1: kind of wave that's happening in the culture, but it's 327 00:19:01,956 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 1: not the only thing that's happening in the culture. And 328 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 1: I think what we actually need is an accountability culture 329 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,996 Speaker 1: or a culture of consequences where it's like, oh, it's 330 00:19:10,036 --> 00:19:12,116 Speaker 1: true that you actually did this thing. We know that 331 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: it's true, and here's something, here's what a consequence can 332 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:17,356 Speaker 1: actually look like. When I think of a call out, 333 00:19:17,876 --> 00:19:21,036 Speaker 1: the call out functions as an isolating tool instead of 334 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 1: a tool of community. And I think that's where when 335 00:19:24,036 --> 00:19:26,636 Speaker 1: some people use the terms call in, the idea is 336 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:29,276 Speaker 1: like it's actually supposed to be bringing people deeper into community, 337 00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: into a space where they can actually be held, versus, 338 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:34,636 Speaker 1: you know, something where it's like we actually don't want 339 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: this person have access to community. I think a consequence though, 340 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 1: to me, a consequence is when it's like, oh, I 341 00:19:40,756 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 1: can draw a direct line, like I really can see 342 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:47,116 Speaker 1: this consequence makes sense based on what happened. You know 343 00:19:47,156 --> 00:19:50,076 Speaker 1: what this person did. And I think a lot of 344 00:19:50,076 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 1: times what we're missing is there's no veracity around what 345 00:19:54,396 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 1: actually happened. We don't know, right, and then there's no 346 00:19:59,276 --> 00:20:01,516 Speaker 1: clarity on like, what is the consequence. Is it taking 347 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:05,116 Speaker 1: one year out of the spotlight? You know, is it 348 00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 1: taking a year off of Instagram or whatever? Because that's 349 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 1: about you know what I've been noted sing as the 350 00:20:09,596 --> 00:20:12,316 Speaker 1: patterns people kind of dip out for a year and 351 00:20:12,356 --> 00:20:16,516 Speaker 1: then you see them come back like everything's great, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, 352 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:18,796 Speaker 1: we don't talk about that other thing. Yeah we don't, 353 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:20,956 Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of and they just move on. 354 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:23,436 Speaker 1: So I'm like, we need I'm always interested in like 355 00:20:23,476 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 1: what actually works. If that strategy worked, you know, if 356 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:30,276 Speaker 1: it was like dang, we called these people out and 357 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 1: rape just stopped, like it's not happening anymore. This really worked? 358 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: You know. Miriam Kabba is someone that I always point 359 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:42,716 Speaker 1: people towards. She is an incredible teacher around abolition, particularly 360 00:20:42,796 --> 00:20:46,836 Speaker 1: prison abolition, and she really talks about that long, long 361 00:20:46,956 --> 00:20:51,156 Speaker 1: pattern of harm doing continues in spite of this system 362 00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: of punitive justice, you know, in spite of all those efforts, 363 00:20:54,716 --> 00:20:56,276 Speaker 1: and she's like, we should just be focused on how 364 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: we end the harm. That's the only measure. Did the 365 00:20:59,716 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: harm end or did it not end? And I think 366 00:21:01,756 --> 00:21:04,396 Speaker 1: that helps in a lot of these conversations because people 367 00:21:04,396 --> 00:21:07,676 Speaker 1: get into some moral high ground space, and I'm like, 368 00:21:07,876 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: it's not working, you know, like fundamentally it's not working, 369 00:21:12,476 --> 00:21:17,516 Speaker 1: so it can't be the right way. I can talk 370 00:21:17,556 --> 00:21:20,116 Speaker 1: about this with you or I really appreciate you writing 371 00:21:20,156 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: this book. Adrian Murrie Brown, thank you so much for 372 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,476 Speaker 1: being with us today. Wow, thank you for having me. 373 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:29,356 Speaker 1: This is a great conversation. Adrian Marie Brown is the 374 00:21:29,356 --> 00:21:31,636 Speaker 1: author of We Will Not Cancel Us and Other Dreams 375 00:21:31,636 --> 00:21:35,116 Speaker 1: of Transformative Justice. She's the co host of the podcasts 376 00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:38,156 Speaker 1: How to Survive the End of the World, Octavia's Parables 377 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,956 Speaker 1: and Emergent Strategy Listeners. If you want to learn more 378 00:21:41,956 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: about the solutions we talked about today, I highly recommend 379 00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: Adrian's book We Will Not Cancel Us, and you could 380 00:21:48,956 --> 00:21:51,156 Speaker 1: find links to her other books, as well as articles 381 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:56,356 Speaker 1: on conflict resolution, restorative justice practices, truth and reconciliation, non 382 00:21:56,476 --> 00:21:59,636 Speaker 1: violent communication, and to more information about the leaders and 383 00:21:59,716 --> 00:22:03,316 Speaker 1: mentors Brown mentioned in this conversation. They're all in our 384 00:22:03,356 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 1: show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by 385 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:12,156 Speaker 1: David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn, editing help from Keshelle Williams. 386 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:15,476 Speaker 1: Very special thanks to Tanzina Vega for pointing me to 387 00:22:15,556 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 1: Adrian Marie Brown's work. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, 388 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:22,316 Speaker 1: and our executive producer is Mio La Belle. I'm Ronald 389 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:23,996 Speaker 1: Young Junior. Thanks for listening.