WEBVTT - Could Delay Calling Cops Plus Coroner Comments Create Reasonable Doubt For Kohberger? 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:06.840 Quality diamonds, but Joseph's gotten more. I don't know about y'all, 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:11.440 but I think about temperature every day, and generally it 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:17.640 has to do with determining how much money I'll have 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.360 at the end of the month to pay for my 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.640 air conditioning bill, because I hate being an old I 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:25.520 don't even like I'm not even gonna say hot. I 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.600 hate being in a warm house. I like being in 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:34.239 a cool house. And unfortunately my desire for physical comfort 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:40.400 is noncompatible with summertime in the Deep South. I'm gonna 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.000 wind up having a huge electric bill at the end 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.240 of every month, guaranteed. I think about temp in that sense. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.400 But you know, I thought about temp for a long 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:59.200 time as a death investigator, because we use temperature in 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:06.480 order to determine how long it's been since someone has 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.640 I don't know, been cast off this mortal coil in 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.479 the words of the Bard, and there are a lot 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:19.600 of indicators that we look for, and today on bodybags, 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:26.759 we're going to have a discussion about PMI post mortem interval, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.880 and in particular, we're going to have a discussion that 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.080 ties back to a case that it's currently in the 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.320 news and will be for months and months to come 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:45.279 the murder of the four students in Idaho. I'm Joseph 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:52.240 Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks, David. I don't know 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:58.680 if you recall this, but have you have you ever 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:03.880 been around in it's generally a grandparent. It doesn't matter 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:07.600 if it is as hot as the surface of the 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.440 sun outside. They're going to run the heat. They're going 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.880 to put a shawl around them or a blanket. Yeah, 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.800 they're going to have like woolen socks on. And a 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.160 part of that is getting old, you know, you lose 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:21.040 muscle masks. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.839 You you funny bit about old people being cold? Why 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.400 is this so cold in feezing? 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.720 It's so cold in it? Thought about that in years. Yeah, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:39.840 what a great stand up that was. Uh yeah, it's 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:40.960 so cold in heal baby. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.120 But why is that? Because I had these two women 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:49.080 that were they were sisters and they were like the 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.679 Snoop sisters back in the day on the Waltons. Yeah yeah, 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.000 I think they're combined age with three hundred and fifty seven. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.280 But I remember my mother in law was afraid something 0:02:58.280 --> 0:02:59.760 had happened to one of them and asked me to 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.519 take were over there because they wouldn't answer the phone. 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.120 And as we got to the house, Joe, it was 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.840 August in Alabama, so it was probably in the upper nineties, 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:12.000 late afternoon. We were already sweating from the humidity, and 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.760 I could hear their TV as we got to the door. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.040 They had it turned up very loud. And when my 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.720 mother in law opened the door, just you know, was 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.120 knocking on it and the door cracked open, I felt 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:25.760 the heat hit me. I actually backed up the heat 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.399 from the house and I thought, oh, they're dead. Yeah, 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.760 And they were in there and they were bundled up, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.200 both of them, both of them bundled up with the 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.960 heat going. And it's ninety eight degrees outside. That was 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:36.600 freaky to me. 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.640 Yeah, and it's probably equally as hot in that house, 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:44.640 yeahsty Yeah, And it's terrifying on one level. Do you remember, 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:50.600 I know, I know that you do. The summer God, 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.120 it was I know, well over a decade. You remember 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:57.120 that summer of horror they had in Chicago. Oh yeah, 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.120 where it was so hot. Yep, the old people were 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:06.120 dying in their homes. And I knew the chief and 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.680 me at the time for Cook County, which is Chicago, 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.800 Ed what's his name, doctor Ed Donahue, I think, great 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.040 forensic pathologist and a heck of a nice guy. I mean, 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:23.919 just a really really cool cat. And anyway, it was 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.680 and this happened right before this happened right before he 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.360 retired from Cook County. I can see why this would 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.240 be something that will push you over this because they 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.680 had people that were dying left and right, and you know, 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:36.880 that's that's kind of a story for another day, but 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:43.040 it's you know, it's deaths related to hypothermia, uher hyper thermia, Yeah, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:44.040 as opposed to hypo. 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.920 So I had me to run with that. But I'm 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.279 just curious, man, that you mentioned the old people and heat. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.680 Do they really I mean, do as we age, do 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:54.200 we feel colder? 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.240 I mean, yeah, I think I think the perception is right. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.840 I'm not a geriatric specialist, but. 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:08.240 I'm becoming a geriatric. You'll have to, you're qualified. I 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.920 think that one of the things that occurs. First off, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.839 you're losing you're losing mass in your body. You know, 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:20.599 your insulation is kind of dwindling away, fat layer, muscle layer, 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.000 And in addition to that, you don't have the same 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:31.160 robust circulatory system that you once had. And so therefore 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.599 you're gonna feel cooler or you'll feel like, you know, 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.719 I know, my grandmother always said she feel like she 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.080 had a chill on her, you know, And that's that's 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.240 kind of a common theme, you know, that kind of 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:42.560 runs through it as you get older. 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.040 It hadn't hit me yet. I mean, I can tell you. 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.880 I'll sit around and I'll be sweating, and I'll look 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.000 at him and I'll say, hey, what's the air conditioning on? 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:56.599 She'll say sixty eight. I'll say, wow, it's really hot 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:58.960 in here, and she'll say, turn the fan up her. 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.839 And that's another thing. We can't sleep without a fan on. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.320 I'm addicted to it. I even use a fan. I 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.440 use a fan app on my phone when I'm traveling. 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.559 That's how addicted to fans I am. And it lasts 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.000 for it lasts literally for ten hours. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:18.080 So on meeting one Dago, my name's Dave, that's it. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:18.919 I'm addicted of. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:25.400 Hey, all right, so pos yeah, yeah, yeah, post warum 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.240 interval I it's it's you know, you hear this term 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.160 is thrown around. I'm guilty of using it. I can't 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:36.000 say guilty because it's an abbreviation, but h you know, 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:39.479 so it's it's p M. I you'll hear use that 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.719 term constantly, but it is postmar interval and the the 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.840 four big categories that we look at when we're trying 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:53.360 to assess the dead, and that is going to be 0:06:54.240 --> 0:07:00.159 riger mortise or rigor it's pronounced both ways. Uh. We 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:06.960 have post mortem lividity, which is also uh the term 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:12.280 uh live or mortise. Then we have alger mortise, not 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.880 to be confused with a former vice president and it 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.520 and and then we have then we have gasterric content. 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.760 So you have four areas that are really kind of 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:30.720 exploited by us in in circles of death investigation to 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.160 give us, you know, to try to do. And really 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:38.400 what it is, Dave, it's a it's a snapshot of time. Okay, 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:42.880 and we go out and we try to do these assessments. 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:45.480 Let me tell you this, and I'll say this right 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.960 up front. This is kind of my you know, word 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:57.440 of warning here. None of the stuff is accurate to 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:01.800 the point where you could bet your life on it. Okay, 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:07.880 It's not like it's not a true quantitative measurement where 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.840 you can say with precision. I'm talking about like Swiss 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:18.160 watch precision where you can say this is the exact 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.680 moment in time when they took their last breath. That's 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.480 mathematically it's impossible to do that. You cannot do that. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.400 I actually went to I'll never forget it. I was 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.640 at a conference one time. By the way, I recommend 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:38.400 highly that if you're interested in becoming a medical legal 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.680 death investigator. The mother church of all medical legal death 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.480 investigation is Saint Louis University in Saint Louis, Missouri, School 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:50.640 of Medicine, Department of Forensic Pathology. There are four classes 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.800 that are offered every year in intro to medical legal 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.240 death Investigation. I went through the class in I finally 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.960 got a spot in nineteen eighty seven. I've been working 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.240 looking for over two years by that time. And it 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:04.600 is a rigorous program. 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:05.360 You go for. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:12.120 Five days, it's eight hours a day, and it is 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:15.560 they don't knowledge into your brain in this place, like 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.280 you can't imagine. There's no really no breaks in here. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:24.000 So you're you're learning among the finest. You're learning from 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.080 the finest at the medical school. And it was there 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.960 that I first got, you know, really my intro in 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.440 a class sense. At Saint Louis University to how do 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.400 we how do we determine, you know, how somebody how 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.480 long someone has been dead. And there's a program called 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.280 the Master's program that's only offered like every other summer, 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.360 and you have to have attended the basic course first. 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.680 And I went to this thing. They had this guy 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.600 from Germany and Dave. This is in the days. It 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.160 wasn't a chalkboard, but he had a whiteboard up on 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.520 the stage and it wasn't one, it was three. And 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.000 he had created a formula that extended over the surfaces 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:08.200 of three whiteboards. And he claimed that he had the 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.440 magic bullet to determining time of death. And I remember 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.120 there were a bunch of us sitting there and we 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.200 just we're just kind of rolling our eyes. First off, 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.960 no one has this much time. This is only something 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.640 a university professor could do. When you're in tempo and 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.440 you're out in the field and you're you've got a 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.320 homicide that you're working, and you might have a suicide holding, 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:34.160 a motor vehicle accident holding. You're going to glean as 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.319 much information at the homicide as you possibly can. You 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.600 got to move on to the next case. He had 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.480 taken years to compile this data in a perfect world, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.199 you know, maybe it had some utility maybe, but still 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.000 to this day, they can't give you a specific time 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.320 of death. So that's kind of my warning before we 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.760 get into all of this. So if you ever come 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.320 across someone that actually tells you that they can do it, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.600 that they can give you an exact time, run, don't 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:05.520 walk out away. 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.000 For years, I really did think you could come within 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.079 fifteen minutes of knowing. I really did until I talk 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:12.920 to you about it, because I didn't know. I mean, 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.959 you watch TV. Oh I see he had a corn 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.240 in his diarrhea. That means you know. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.840 Yeah, it's the best we can do. And I'd say 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.480 the best I've ever been able to do just looking 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.480 at the numbers alone that we collect and the examination 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.160 that we do at the scene. Maybe maybe four hours, 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:33.920 maybe four to five. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.319 And now can you take this in with the other timeline, right, I. 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.920 Mean right, you have to. That's that's to the exclusion 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.120 of circumstantial you know, I last saw him at this time. Okay, 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.280 I'm just talking about pure science now, as pure as 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.560 it can be in that kind of environment. So it's 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.160 a not controlled, a non controlled environment and everything, and 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:53.600 I mean just about everything we're going to discuss right 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.120 now is environmentally dependent. So I think that it's really 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.800 important that we keep our wits about us and just 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:00.640 understand that. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.120 So it's fascinating. It's amazing that you have to truly 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.880 know investigation beyond just the like you mentioned the guy 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.400 uses three whiteboards to write a formula down to put 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.640 this to get it, and yet it actually does. There's 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.560 more to it than just the nuts and bolts. You 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.800 have to actually investigate the person's life to know about 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:23.240 their death. 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.439 Yeah, and that lecture lasted for it was like two 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:30.439 hours and forty five minutes, and I wish I had 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:34.280 that time back. It did demonstrate to me. It did 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:38.680 demonstrate to me, however, that nobody really knows. I mean, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:43.160 nobody really knows. And you know, I guess you could say, well, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.480 somebody's sitting in front of a clock, and this is 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.600 an old example people have used before. I've heard it stated. 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.640 And they're shot and it's a thurn through wound and 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.720 it hits the clock and the clock stops. And so 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.600 you marry that up with it if you get to 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.760 the body at you know, what is it? They say? 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.520 A broken A broken clock is right twice a day, 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.240 so even that has a caveat to it. But for me, 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:12.640 for me, I think starting off with rigidity otherwise known 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.520 as riger mortis. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:14.800 When does that happen? 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.320 Jim, Well, it begins, you know, you first begin to 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:26.199 appreciate it pretty It's not immediate, and this is kind 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:31.600 of how it works. So if you think about the 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.520 muscle groupings in your body, and I'm talking about like 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.240 the tiny muscles that you even have, like that surrounds 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:45.400 your eyelids, it happens everywhere. Okay, it happens simultaneously where 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.280 you have this rigidity that begins to set in throughout 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.880 the body. And a lot of people will say it 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.840 starts in the small muscles of the body and extends 0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:00.160 out to larger ones. That's a fallacy. That's inaccurate. It 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:07.760 starts everywhere, everywhere simultaneously. However, it's most appreciated in the 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:12.319 small muscles, and then the larger muscle groups are slower, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.640 you know, to kind of come around. So I'll give 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.800 you a great example of this. You might not have rigidity, 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.480 say in the elbows, the wrist, maybe the shoulders, and 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.440 certainly in the knees. But if you and this is 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:29.360 one of the things. This is the first area I 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.480 always go to to check a body for rigidity, and 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.120 that's the mouth. If I press down on the chin 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.680 in order to try to open the mouth and I'm 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.720 struggling with it. This is what I know. That muscle 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:47.640 grouping that is adjacent to where your jaw fits in 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.040 de mandible actually fits in to that joint like the 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:55.400 TMJ when it goes in there, those muscle groups are 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.479 most affected. They're tiny, Okay, So you get this rigidity 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.960 that sets and the jaw. And yet people say you 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:06.800 can appreciate it in the eyelids. I've never really seen that. 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.520 I guess clinically they say you can. But for me 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.480 as a practitioner on the field, the jaw would be 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:14.280 where I would go to first, and then it kind 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.680 of extends out from there. You know, the smaller, smaller 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.880 muscle groups, you'll see it, you know, like in the fingers, 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.720 you know, or in the toes before you're going to 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.640 see it in the ankles or the knees, are certainly 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.640 in the hips. But what's what has occurred is that 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:38.800 we are dependent. We are dependent in life on what's 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.360 called cellular respiration. And so those cells are living, breathing 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.120 all right. When they begin to shut down. When they 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:52.160 begin to shut down, cellular respiration has ceased, and so 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:58.000 the body, the body generally you I'm not going to 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.320 go into great detail, but there's crib cycle and it 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:06.080 throws off these little balls of energy. Okay, ATP, Well 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.400 that ceases, then you begin to produce ADP. And one 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.880 of the products of ADP is actually lactic acid. So 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.920 if you have ever worked out, if you've ever worked 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.440 out in your life, and you hadn't done it in 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.320 a while, and you wake up the next morning and 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:25.640 you're stiff as a board, Look, you can go take 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.840 all the motrin and tile and all and aspirin and 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.280 everything else you want to take, but sooner or later, 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.720 that rigidity is going to leave your body. That's actually 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.240 a lactic acid build up that you're having, you're experiencing 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.720 and your joints. The reality is, because we're upright and 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:46.400 still breathing, our body metabolizes that. Okay, the dead can't, 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.280 the can't. The can't, they can't do it at the 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.720 same rate that we do in life. Now after a 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.720 period of time, and this is one of important things 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:02.560 about rigidity. After a period of time, time that lactic 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.320 acid build up in the dead begins to back out 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.760 and it leaves all right. So there's I think that 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.120 there's a common common thought where people believe that, hey, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.240 you know what, once you're here, here's and we've heard 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.359 this before, once you're cold and stiff, man, you're cold 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.600 and stiff. Well, no you'll be you'll be cold, but 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:30.680 you ain't gonna be stiff because that your your arms, 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:36.000 your legs, your hips, your jaw, everything becomes flacid. Once again, 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.720 you revert back. So you have to you have to 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.000 be there like Johnny on the spot. So what are 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:46.920 you looking at relative to this, Well, it's first noticeable. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:52.200 The rigidity, the ryger mortis is first noticeable. It's going 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.040 to take about one to three hours. A lot of 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.040 it's going to be, first off, dependent upon the physiology 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.399 of the person, and then it's also going to be 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.960 dependent upon the ambient environmental temperature. And we always have 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.560 to remember that anything that involves heat speeds things up. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.080 So it's going to take about ten to twelve hours 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.679 for it to be complete. So why is that important 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.160 if we're death investigators. Well, it's very important because if 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.280 I show up at a scene, Dave, and the body 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:31.760 is completely rigid, like you can't move it, then I'm 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.359 going to hazard guests. Based on ryger morts loan, that 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:40.280 person's been dead for ten to twelve hours perhaps, So 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:49.040 my question is going back to Idaho. I'm not being 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.399 disrespectful here. It's a legitimate question. We have such a 0:18:53.520 --> 0:19:00.399 delay and when those students were last known alleged to 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:05.400 have been alive. Okay, the big number that everybody talks 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.520 about is slightly after four am, roughly, okay, give or 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.880 take all, right, going down until you know about half 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:17.520 past the hour. That nine one one call doesn't originate 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:24.679 until like eleven something am almost so yeah, almost twelve, 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:29.800 So you know you're looking at seven seven hours, I 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:34.879 guess roughly, and you'd have to bracket that very carefully. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:43.960 I'm I'm curious. This is dangerous ground here. I'm curious 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:48.040 as to what the coroner saw because she said in 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:55.200 one report, Dave, that huh that these kids were obviously 0:19:55.240 --> 0:20:00.239 asleep when this happened. So my question based upon on 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.639 that statement that she made in an interview, like within 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.880 like two days, two or three days after this happened. 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:14.440 So talk to me about rigidity. Did you measure rigidity? 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:16.639 Because I don't know, you're telling me that everybody was 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.320 obviously asleep, all right, Well, according to what we're hearing now, 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:26.080 particularly based upon the dateline dump that came out, these 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.400 bodies were not in the position that we were led 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.760 to believe. They certainly weren't tucked into beds, you know, 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.720 all snug in the bed. So for the medical legal authority, 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.280 I would have to ask what was the extent of 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.119 your examination at the scene. Did you check for rigidity 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.480 in the bodies? You know, was there stiffness in the jaw, 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.720 stiffness in the limbs? You know, where the bodies flaccid? Still? 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.239 Could were they movable? And that's that's just on the 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.840 point of Roger Mortis alone. I think that that's a 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.960 legitimate question that's going to come out. Of course, if 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.520 the case goes off in August, which you know we're 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.840 thinking it might. I don't know. I sit back and 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:12.720 I think about that data and how it was collected 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:17.960 that's scene. Was rigidity measured? Because you know, my friends, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.800 I got to tell you, you can't measure the stuff at 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.080 the morgue. The forensic pathologist if you ever read an 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.240 autopsy report, they'll say that when I received the body, 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.080 the body was cool to the touch, rocking mortis was 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.160 present in the jaw and the extremities. That's their boilerplate, 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.400 and they'll talk about post warmal Avidity, we'll get into 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.960 that in a second. But you can't that assessment at 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:48.800 the morgue by the forensic pathologist be honestly, you ain't 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.960 worth a gunpowdered blow at hell because that data really 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.520 doesn't mean anything. The body has been taken out of 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.119 context by that time, David. It's a three hour drive 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.280 a Moscow to Aida County where these autopsies were done, 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:07.760 and once the bodies are removed, they're going to go 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.520 into a cooler, so that's going to affect the data. 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.720 You can't and then if there was air conditioning or 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.639 no air conditioning running in the van, that's going to 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:19.080 impact once you take those bodies out of that environment. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.439 If you don't do that assessment right then and there 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:28.320 at that moment, it's not worth doing. So that's I 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:46.280 think that's a legitimate question. The stiffness that you encounter 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:51.760 with the human remain it's shocking, you know, when you 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.760 and even for me, as you know, a guy that 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.919 was involved in this field for a long time, it 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.159 was shocking for me. You know, when I would you 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:04.600 still have an expectation when you're around the dead. I mean, 0:23:04.640 --> 0:23:07.840 obviously they're human. You still have an expectation they're going 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.480 to respond to you like any other human. But the 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.640 dead don't respond that way. There is a stiffness that 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:23.960 they have that you don't encounter in any other context. 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.120 You can even think about, say, for instance, if there's 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.120 somebody resisting you and they're holding their arm like you've 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:34.119 grabbed them by their arm, and that resistance they are 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:39.560 still not the strength of riger It's quite striking. But 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:49.360 here's another thing. You think about the changes in bodies 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:56.480 relative to temperature. If any of you have ever lost 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:01.240 a loved one, and in those last moments when you're 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:04.400 at a funeral home or wherever it is, maybe you're 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:10.160 sitting with a loved one and they pass on, there's 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:15.560 something about the coolness of death. It's it's like no 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:24.679 other type of sensory perception on your part like the 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.080 coolness of death. It's like you can, like if you 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.080 go outside in the wintertime and your fingers are cold, 0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:30.520 or your. 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:31.200 Nose is cold. 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.560 You've got you've always got the friend that walks up 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.440 to you and says, hey, feel this, and they put 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.960 their hands on your face, you know, and you retract. 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:45.200 There's something about the coolness of death, and that's one 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.199 of the reasons. Even in literature you'll hear terms like 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:52.160 the icy fingers of death. And it's a real thing. 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:54.320 I mean, if you've ever been next to an open 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:58.320 casket and you touch someone in there, there's something it's 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:02.359 the absence of of any kind of life, I think. 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:10.640 And when you're attempting to assess the dead based simply 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:17.000 upon temperature, this is something that most people, I think 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:20.800 out there believe that this is our go to and 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:25.119 for me, it's probably some of the most worthless data 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:29.560 that exists. The reason is is that there are too 0:25:29.640 --> 0:25:33.359 many variables involved, and no one can quite seem to 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:37.840 come up with a methodology where they want to measure 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.320 the temperature of a body. And let me give you 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:45.000 an example. So you've got a real baseline here when 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:51.159 you're talking about how cool or cold body is, and 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:55.080 you touch the body and people will either say, well, 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:57.439