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Speaker 1: Quality diamonds, but Joseph's gotten more. I don't know about y'all,

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Speaker 1: but I think about temperature every day, and generally it

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Speaker 1: has to do with determining how much money I'll have

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Speaker 1: at the end of the month to pay for my

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Speaker 1: air conditioning bill, because I hate being an old I

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Speaker 1: don't even like I'm not even gonna say hot. I

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Speaker 1: hate being in a warm house. I like being in

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Speaker 1: a cool house. And unfortunately my desire for physical comfort

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Speaker 1: is noncompatible with summertime in the Deep South. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: wind up having a huge electric bill at the end

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Speaker 1: of every month, guaranteed. I think about temp in that sense.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I thought about temp for a long

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Speaker 1: time as a death investigator, because we use temperature in

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Speaker 1: order to determine how long it's been since someone has

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Speaker 1: I don't know, been cast off this mortal coil in

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Speaker 1: the words of the Bard, and there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of indicators that we look for, and today on bodybags,

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Speaker 1: we're going to have a discussion about PMI post mortem interval,

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Speaker 1: and in particular, we're going to have a discussion that

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Speaker 1: ties back to a case that it's currently in the

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Speaker 1: news and will be for months and months to come

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Speaker 1: the murder of the four students in Idaho. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks, David. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you recall this, but have you have you ever

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Speaker 1: been around in it's generally a grandparent. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: if it is as hot as the surface of the

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Speaker 1: sun outside. They're going to run the heat. They're going

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Speaker 1: to put a shawl around them or a blanket. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're going to have like woolen socks on. And a

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Speaker 1: part of that is getting old, you know, you lose

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Speaker 1: muscle masks.

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Speaker 2: You you funny bit about old people being cold? Why

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Speaker 2: is this so cold in feezing?

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Speaker 1: It's so cold in it? Thought about that in years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what a great stand up that was. Uh yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: so cold in heal baby.

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Speaker 2: But why is that? Because I had these two women

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Speaker 2: that were they were sisters and they were like the

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Speaker 2: Snoop sisters back in the day on the Waltons. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think they're combined age with three hundred and fifty seven.

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Speaker 2: But I remember my mother in law was afraid something

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Speaker 2: had happened to one of them and asked me to

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Speaker 2: take were over there because they wouldn't answer the phone.

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Speaker 2: And as we got to the house, Joe, it was

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Speaker 2: August in Alabama, so it was probably in the upper nineties,

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Speaker 2: late afternoon. We were already sweating from the humidity, and

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Speaker 2: I could hear their TV as we got to the door.

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Speaker 2: They had it turned up very loud. And when my

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Speaker 2: mother in law opened the door, just you know, was

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Speaker 2: knocking on it and the door cracked open, I felt

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Speaker 2: the heat hit me. I actually backed up the heat

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Speaker 2: from the house and I thought, oh, they're dead. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And they were in there and they were bundled up,

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Speaker 2: both of them, both of them bundled up with the

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Speaker 2: heat going. And it's ninety eight degrees outside. That was

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Speaker 2: freaky to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's probably equally as hot in that house,

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Speaker 1: yeahsty Yeah, And it's terrifying on one level. Do you remember,

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Speaker 1: I know, I know that you do. The summer God,

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Speaker 1: it was I know, well over a decade. You remember

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Speaker 1: that summer of horror they had in Chicago. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: where it was so hot. Yep, the old people were

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Speaker 1: dying in their homes. And I knew the chief and

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Speaker 1: me at the time for Cook County, which is Chicago,

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Speaker 1: Ed what's his name, doctor Ed Donahue, I think, great

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist and a heck of a nice guy. I mean,

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Speaker 1: just a really really cool cat. And anyway, it was

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Speaker 1: and this happened right before this happened right before he

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Speaker 1: retired from Cook County. I can see why this would

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Speaker 1: be something that will push you over this because they

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Speaker 1: had people that were dying left and right, and you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of a story for another day, but

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's deaths related to hypothermia, uher hyper thermia, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to hypo.

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Speaker 2: So I had me to run with that. But I'm

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Speaker 2: just curious, man, that you mentioned the old people and heat.

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Speaker 2: Do they really I mean, do as we age, do

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Speaker 2: we feel colder?

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think I think the perception is right.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a geriatric specialist, but.

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Speaker 2: I'm becoming a geriatric. You'll have to, you're qualified. I

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Speaker 2: think that one of the things that occurs. First off,

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Speaker 2: you're losing you're losing mass in your body. You know,

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Speaker 2: your insulation is kind of dwindling away, fat layer, muscle layer,

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Speaker 2: And in addition to that, you don't have the same

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Speaker 2: robust circulatory system that you once had. And so therefore

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Speaker 2: you're gonna feel cooler or you'll feel like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I know, my grandmother always said she feel like she

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Speaker 2: had a chill on her, you know, And that's that's

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Speaker 2: kind of a common theme, you know, that kind of

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Speaker 2: runs through it as you get older.

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Speaker 1: It hadn't hit me yet. I mean, I can tell you.

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Speaker 1: I'll sit around and I'll be sweating, and I'll look

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Speaker 1: at him and I'll say, hey, what's the air conditioning on?

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Speaker 1: She'll say sixty eight. I'll say, wow, it's really hot

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Speaker 1: in here, and she'll say, turn the fan up her.

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Speaker 1: And that's another thing. We can't sleep without a fan on.

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Speaker 1: I'm addicted to it. I even use a fan. I

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Speaker 1: use a fan app on my phone when I'm traveling.

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Speaker 1: That's how addicted to fans I am. And it lasts

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Speaker 1: for it lasts literally for ten hours.

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Speaker 2: So on meeting one Dago, my name's Dave, that's it.

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Speaker 2: I'm addicted of.

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Speaker 1: Hey, all right, so pos yeah, yeah, yeah, post warum

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Speaker 1: interval I it's it's you know, you hear this term

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Speaker 1: is thrown around. I'm guilty of using it. I can't

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Speaker 1: say guilty because it's an abbreviation, but h you know,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's p M. I you'll hear use that

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Speaker 1: term constantly, but it is postmar interval and the the

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Speaker 1: four big categories that we look at when we're trying

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Speaker 1: to assess the dead, and that is going to be

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Speaker 1: riger mortise or rigor it's pronounced both ways. Uh. We

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Speaker 1: have post mortem lividity, which is also uh the term

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Speaker 1: uh live or mortise. Then we have alger mortise, not

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Speaker 1: to be confused with a former vice president and it

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Speaker 1: and and then we have then we have gasterric content.

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Speaker 1: So you have four areas that are really kind of

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Speaker 1: exploited by us in in circles of death investigation to

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Speaker 1: give us, you know, to try to do. And really

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Speaker 1: what it is, Dave, it's a it's a snapshot of time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and we go out and we try to do these assessments.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you this, and I'll say this right

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Speaker 1: up front. This is kind of my you know, word

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Speaker 1: of warning here. None of the stuff is accurate to

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Speaker 1: the point where you could bet your life on it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: It's not like it's not a true quantitative measurement where

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Speaker 1: you can say with precision. I'm talking about like Swiss

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Speaker 1: watch precision where you can say this is the exact

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Speaker 1: moment in time when they took their last breath. That's

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Speaker 1: mathematically it's impossible to do that. You cannot do that.

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Speaker 1: I actually went to I'll never forget it. I was

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Speaker 1: at a conference one time. By the way, I recommend

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Speaker 1: highly that if you're interested in becoming a medical legal

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Speaker 1: death investigator. The mother church of all medical legal death

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Speaker 1: investigation is Saint Louis University in Saint Louis, Missouri, School

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Speaker 1: of Medicine, Department of Forensic Pathology. There are four classes

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Speaker 1: that are offered every year in intro to medical legal

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Speaker 1: death Investigation. I went through the class in I finally

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Speaker 1: got a spot in nineteen eighty seven. I've been working

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Speaker 1: looking for over two years by that time. And it

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Speaker 1: is a rigorous program.

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Speaker 2: You go for.

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Speaker 1: Five days, it's eight hours a day, and it is

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Speaker 1: they don't knowledge into your brain in this place, like

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Speaker 1: you can't imagine. There's no really no breaks in here.

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Speaker 1: So you're you're learning among the finest. You're learning from

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Speaker 1: the finest at the medical school. And it was there

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Speaker 1: that I first got, you know, really my intro in

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Speaker 1: a class sense. At Saint Louis University to how do

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Speaker 1: we how do we determine, you know, how somebody how

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Speaker 1: long someone has been dead. And there's a program called

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Speaker 1: the Master's program that's only offered like every other summer,

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Speaker 1: and you have to have attended the basic course first.

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Speaker 1: And I went to this thing. They had this guy

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Speaker 1: from Germany and Dave. This is in the days. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't a chalkboard, but he had a whiteboard up on

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Speaker 1: the stage and it wasn't one, it was three. And

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Speaker 1: he had created a formula that extended over the surfaces

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Speaker 1: of three whiteboards. And he claimed that he had the

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Speaker 1: magic bullet to determining time of death. And I remember

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Speaker 1: there were a bunch of us sitting there and we

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Speaker 1: just we're just kind of rolling our eyes. First off,

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Speaker 1: no one has this much time. This is only something

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Speaker 1: a university professor could do. When you're in tempo and

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Speaker 1: you're out in the field and you're you've got a

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Speaker 1: homicide that you're working, and you might have a suicide holding,

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Speaker 1: a motor vehicle accident holding. You're going to glean as

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Speaker 1: much information at the homicide as you possibly can. You

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Speaker 1: got to move on to the next case. He had

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Speaker 1: taken years to compile this data in a perfect world,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe it had some utility maybe, but still

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Speaker 1: to this day, they can't give you a specific time

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Speaker 1: of death. So that's kind of my warning before we

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Speaker 1: get into all of this. So if you ever come

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Speaker 1: across someone that actually tells you that they can do it,

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Speaker 1: that they can give you an exact time, run, don't

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Speaker 1: walk out away.

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Speaker 2: For years, I really did think you could come within

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Speaker 2: fifteen minutes of knowing. I really did until I talk

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Speaker 2: to you about it, because I didn't know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you watch TV. Oh I see he had a corn

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Speaker 2: in his diarrhea. That means you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the best we can do. And I'd say

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Speaker 1: the best I've ever been able to do just looking

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Speaker 1: at the numbers alone that we collect and the examination

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Speaker 1: that we do at the scene. Maybe maybe four hours,

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Speaker 1: maybe four to five.

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Speaker 2: And now can you take this in with the other timeline, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean right, you have to. That's that's to the exclusion

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Speaker 1: of circumstantial you know, I last saw him at this time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm just talking about pure science now, as pure as

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Speaker 1: it can be in that kind of environment. So it's

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Speaker 1: a not controlled, a non controlled environment and everything, and

194
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Speaker 1: I mean just about everything we're going to discuss right

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Speaker 1: now is environmentally dependent. So I think that it's really

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Speaker 1: important that we keep our wits about us and just

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Speaker 1: understand that.

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Speaker 2: So it's fascinating. It's amazing that you have to truly

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Speaker 2: know investigation beyond just the like you mentioned the guy

200
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Speaker 2: uses three whiteboards to write a formula down to put

201
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Speaker 2: this to get it, and yet it actually does. There's

202
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Speaker 2: more to it than just the nuts and bolts. You

203
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Speaker 2: have to actually investigate the person's life to know about

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Speaker 2: their death.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that lecture lasted for it was like two

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Speaker 1: hours and forty five minutes, and I wish I had

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Speaker 1: that time back. It did demonstrate to me. It did

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Speaker 1: demonstrate to me, however, that nobody really knows. I mean,

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Speaker 1: nobody really knows. And you know, I guess you could say, well,

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Speaker 1: somebody's sitting in front of a clock, and this is

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Speaker 1: an old example people have used before. I've heard it stated.

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Speaker 1: And they're shot and it's a thurn through wound and

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Speaker 1: it hits the clock and the clock stops. And so

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Speaker 1: you marry that up with it if you get to

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Speaker 1: the body at you know, what is it? They say?

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Speaker 1: A broken A broken clock is right twice a day,

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Speaker 1: so even that has a caveat to it. But for me,

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Speaker 1: for me, I think starting off with rigidity otherwise known

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Speaker 1: as riger mortis.

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Speaker 2: When does that happen?

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Speaker 1: Jim, Well, it begins, you know, you first begin to

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Speaker 1: appreciate it pretty It's not immediate, and this is kind

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Speaker 1: of how it works. So if you think about the

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Speaker 1: muscle groupings in your body, and I'm talking about like

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Speaker 1: the tiny muscles that you even have, like that surrounds

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Speaker 1: your eyelids, it happens everywhere. Okay, it happens simultaneously where

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Speaker 1: you have this rigidity that begins to set in throughout

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Speaker 1: the body. And a lot of people will say it

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Speaker 1: starts in the small muscles of the body and extends

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Speaker 1: out to larger ones. That's a fallacy. That's inaccurate. It

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Speaker 1: starts everywhere, everywhere simultaneously. However, it's most appreciated in the

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Speaker 1: small muscles, and then the larger muscle groups are slower,

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Speaker 1: you know, to kind of come around. So I'll give

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Speaker 1: you a great example of this. You might not have rigidity,

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Speaker 1: say in the elbows, the wrist, maybe the shoulders, and

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Speaker 1: certainly in the knees. But if you and this is

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Speaker 1: one of the things. This is the first area I

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Speaker 1: always go to to check a body for rigidity, and

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Speaker 1: that's the mouth. If I press down on the chin

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Speaker 1: in order to try to open the mouth and I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling with it. This is what I know. That muscle

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Speaker 1: grouping that is adjacent to where your jaw fits in

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Speaker 1: de mandible actually fits in to that joint like the

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Speaker 1: TMJ when it goes in there, those muscle groups are

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Speaker 1: most affected. They're tiny, Okay, So you get this rigidity

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Speaker 1: that sets and the jaw. And yet people say you

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Speaker 1: can appreciate it in the eyelids. I've never really seen that.

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Speaker 1: I guess clinically they say you can. But for me

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Speaker 1: as a practitioner on the field, the jaw would be

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Speaker 1: where I would go to first, and then it kind

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Speaker 1: of extends out from there. You know, the smaller, smaller

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Speaker 1: muscle groups, you'll see it, you know, like in the fingers,

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Speaker 1: you know, or in the toes before you're going to

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Speaker 1: see it in the ankles or the knees, are certainly

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Speaker 1: in the hips. But what's what has occurred is that

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Speaker 1: we are dependent. We are dependent in life on what's

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Speaker 1: called cellular respiration. And so those cells are living, breathing

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Speaker 1: all right. When they begin to shut down. When they

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Speaker 1: begin to shut down, cellular respiration has ceased, and so

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Speaker 1: the body, the body generally you I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: go into great detail, but there's crib cycle and it

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Speaker 1: throws off these little balls of energy. Okay, ATP, Well

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Speaker 1: that ceases, then you begin to produce ADP. And one

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Speaker 1: of the products of ADP is actually lactic acid. So

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Speaker 1: if you have ever worked out, if you've ever worked

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Speaker 1: out in your life, and you hadn't done it in

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Speaker 1: a while, and you wake up the next morning and

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Speaker 1: you're stiff as a board, Look, you can go take

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Speaker 1: all the motrin and tile and all and aspirin and

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Speaker 1: everything else you want to take, but sooner or later,

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Speaker 1: that rigidity is going to leave your body. That's actually

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Speaker 1: a lactic acid build up that you're having, you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: and your joints. The reality is, because we're upright and

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Speaker 1: still breathing, our body metabolizes that. Okay, the dead can't,

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Speaker 1: the can't. The can't, they can't do it at the

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Speaker 1: same rate that we do in life. Now after a

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Speaker 1: period of time, and this is one of important things

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Speaker 1: about rigidity. After a period of time, time that lactic

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Speaker 1: acid build up in the dead begins to back out

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Speaker 1: and it leaves all right. So there's I think that

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Speaker 1: there's a common common thought where people believe that, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know what, once you're here, here's and we've heard

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Speaker 1: this before, once you're cold and stiff, man, you're cold

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Speaker 1: and stiff. Well, no you'll be you'll be cold, but

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Speaker 1: you ain't gonna be stiff because that your your arms,

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Speaker 1: your legs, your hips, your jaw, everything becomes flacid. Once again,

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Speaker 1: you revert back. So you have to you have to

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Speaker 1: be there like Johnny on the spot. So what are

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Speaker 1: you looking at relative to this, Well, it's first noticeable.

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Speaker 1: The rigidity, the ryger mortis is first noticeable. It's going

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Speaker 1: to take about one to three hours. A lot of

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Speaker 1: it's going to be, first off, dependent upon the physiology

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Speaker 1: of the person, and then it's also going to be

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Speaker 1: dependent upon the ambient environmental temperature. And we always have

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Speaker 1: to remember that anything that involves heat speeds things up.

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Speaker 1: So it's going to take about ten to twelve hours

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Speaker 1: for it to be complete. So why is that important

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Speaker 1: if we're death investigators. Well, it's very important because if

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Speaker 1: I show up at a scene, Dave, and the body

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Speaker 1: is completely rigid, like you can't move it, then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to hazard guests. Based on ryger morts loan, that

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Speaker 1: person's been dead for ten to twelve hours perhaps, So

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Speaker 1: my question is going back to Idaho. I'm not being

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Speaker 1: disrespectful here. It's a legitimate question. We have such a

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Speaker 1: delay and when those students were last known alleged to

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Speaker 1: have been alive. Okay, the big number that everybody talks

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Speaker 1: about is slightly after four am, roughly, okay, give or

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Speaker 1: take all, right, going down until you know about half

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Speaker 1: past the hour. That nine one one call doesn't originate

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Speaker 1: until like eleven something am almost so yeah, almost twelve,

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Speaker 1: So you know you're looking at seven seven hours, I

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Speaker 1: guess roughly, and you'd have to bracket that very carefully.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm curious. This is dangerous ground here. I'm curious

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Speaker 1: as to what the coroner saw because she said in

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Speaker 1: one report, Dave, that huh that these kids were obviously

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Speaker 1: asleep when this happened. So my question based upon on

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Speaker 1: that statement that she made in an interview, like within

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Speaker 1: like two days, two or three days after this happened.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about rigidity. Did you measure rigidity?

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Speaker 1: Because I don't know, you're telling me that everybody was

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Speaker 1: obviously asleep, all right, Well, according to what we're hearing now,

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Speaker 1: particularly based upon the dateline dump that came out, these

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Speaker 1: bodies were not in the position that we were led

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Speaker 1: to believe. They certainly weren't tucked into beds, you know,

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Speaker 1: all snug in the bed. So for the medical legal authority,

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Speaker 1: I would have to ask what was the extent of

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Speaker 1: your examination at the scene. Did you check for rigidity

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Speaker 1: in the bodies? You know, was there stiffness in the jaw,

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Speaker 1: stiffness in the limbs? You know, where the bodies flaccid? Still?

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Speaker 1: Could were they movable? And that's that's just on the

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Speaker 1: point of Roger Mortis alone. I think that that's a

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Speaker 1: legitimate question that's going to come out. Of course, if

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Speaker 1: the case goes off in August, which you know we're

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Speaker 1: thinking it might. I don't know. I sit back and

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Speaker 1: I think about that data and how it was collected

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Speaker 1: that's scene. Was rigidity measured? Because you know, my friends,

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, you can't measure the stuff at

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Speaker 1: the morgue. The forensic pathologist if you ever read an

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Speaker 1: autopsy report, they'll say that when I received the body,

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Speaker 1: the body was cool to the touch, rocking mortis was

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00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: present in the jaw and the extremities. That's their boilerplate,

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Speaker 1: and they'll talk about post warmal Avidity, we'll get into

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Speaker 1: that in a second. But you can't that assessment at

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Speaker 1: the morgue by the forensic pathologist be honestly, you ain't

345
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Speaker 1: worth a gunpowdered blow at hell because that data really

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00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything. The body has been taken out of

347
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Speaker 1: context by that time, David. It's a three hour drive

348
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Speaker 1: a Moscow to Aida County where these autopsies were done,

349
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Speaker 1: and once the bodies are removed, they're going to go

350
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Speaker 1: into a cooler, so that's going to affect the data.

351
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Speaker 1: You can't and then if there was air conditioning or

352
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: no air conditioning running in the van, that's going to

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Speaker 1: impact once you take those bodies out of that environment.

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Speaker 1: If you don't do that assessment right then and there

355
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Speaker 1: at that moment, it's not worth doing. So that's I

356
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: think that's a legitimate question. The stiffness that you encounter

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Speaker 1: with the human remain it's shocking, you know, when you

358
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Speaker 1: and even for me, as you know, a guy that

359
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: was involved in this field for a long time, it

360
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: was shocking for me. You know, when I would you

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Speaker 1: still have an expectation when you're around the dead. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously they're human. You still have an expectation they're going

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Speaker 1: to respond to you like any other human. But the

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00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: dead don't respond that way. There is a stiffness that

365
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: they have that you don't encounter in any other context.

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Speaker 1: You can even think about, say, for instance, if there's

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Speaker 1: somebody resisting you and they're holding their arm like you've

368
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 1: grabbed them by their arm, and that resistance they are

369
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Speaker 1: still not the strength of riger It's quite striking. But

370
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Speaker 1: here's another thing. You think about the changes in bodies

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Speaker 1: relative to temperature. If any of you have ever lost

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Speaker 1: a loved one, and in those last moments when you're

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Speaker 1: at a funeral home or wherever it is, maybe you're

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Speaker 1: sitting with a loved one and they pass on, there's

375
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Speaker 1: something about the coolness of death. It's it's like no

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Speaker 1: other type of sensory perception on your part like the

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Speaker 1: coolness of death. It's like you can, like if you

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Speaker 1: go outside in the wintertime and your fingers are cold,

379
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Speaker 1: or your.

380
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: Nose is cold.

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Speaker 1: You've got you've always got the friend that walks up

382
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: to you and says, hey, feel this, and they put

383
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: their hands on your face, you know, and you retract.

384
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: There's something about the coolness of death, and that's one

385
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Speaker 1: of the reasons. Even in literature you'll hear terms like

386
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Speaker 1: the icy fingers of death. And it's a real thing.

387
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: I mean, if you've ever been next to an open

388
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Speaker 1: casket and you touch someone in there, there's something it's

389
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: the absence of of any kind of life, I think.

390
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: And when you're attempting to assess the dead based simply

391
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Speaker 1: upon temperature, this is something that most people, I think

392
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: out there believe that this is our go to and

393
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Speaker 1: for me, it's probably some of the most worthless data

394
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: that exists. The reason is is that there are too

395
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: many variables involved, and no one can quite seem to

396
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: come up with a methodology where they want to measure

397
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: the temperature of a body. And let me give you

398
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: an example. So you've got a real baseline here when

399
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: you're talking about how cool or cold body is, and

400
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: you touch the body and people will either say, well,

401
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: the body is warm to the touch or cool to

402
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: the touch. That's very baseline, very base, right. Then you

403
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: have other methodologies that are employed, like using a thermometer. Well,

404
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: you run into a lot of problems using a thermometer,

405
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: and here are a few. Many people will try to

406
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: do what's called an axillary temperature, and that means that

407
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: you take a glass thermometer and you place it in

408
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: the armpit externally and you place the arm against the armpit,

409
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: holding the thermometer in place for about five minutes so

410
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: you can get an accurate reading, and all the while

411
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: you have another thermometer hanging in the air, suspending the air,

412
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: taking the ambient environmental temperature. Now, you can either do

413
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: that with an analog thermometer like an old glass thermometer

414
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: mercury thermometer, or you can do a temperature reader in

415
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: a room which exists widely. Now, and you have to

416
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: do this like every I think it's like every You

417
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: do it in twenty men in at intervals while you're

418
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: at a scene to try to get an idea if you

419
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: can get an idea of how the temper here is

420
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: dropping off on a body, but it's still wildly inaccurate.

421
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: Now there's a whole group of people out there in

422
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: medical legal debt investigation. Now I'm about to blow your

423
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: mind with what I'm going to tell you. They believe

424
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: that it is good practice to take a human body

425
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: at a scene. Remember, we have to do everything that's seen.

426
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: You can't do it, the more it's worthless data. And

427
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: you take scalpel and you take a digital Turkey thermometer.

428
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: You make an incision beneath the last rib on the

429
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: right side, which is that overlays your liver, which is

430
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: the most dense organ in the body. And so you're

431
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: looking for what's called and you guys have heard this before,

432
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: core body temperature. So once you make that incision, you

433
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: take the thermometer and insert it into deliver and it

434
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: gives you a pretty instantaneous reading. But here's the problem

435
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: with it. If that's your methodology you're going to employ,

436
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what the case is. If you try

437
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: to go to court with that, you better be doing

438
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: it every damn time. So that means that did you

439
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: get a core temperature on the multiple stablind victim? Just

440
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: think about just for a second. Let that seep into

441
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: your ground water. So you've got a body at a scene,

442
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: a homicide that's got multiple stab wounds. Now you're going

443
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: to take a scalpel and make another incision into the

444
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: body and then insert the thermometer. Oh and by the way,

445
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: this is what they tell you to do. After you've

446
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: done this, man marks a lot and make a circle

447
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: around your incision and put your initials on it. Now.

448
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I was taught this, I

449
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: was thinking, okay, so let me get this straight. You

450
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: want me to open a body at a scene where

451
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm surrounded by not just police officers, but if I'm outside,

452
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: which I have been before, surrounded by angry group of

453
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: people and they see me whip out the cold steel

454
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: and I'm kneeling over somebody's son. In this environment, I'm

455
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: to make an incision in front of this group of

456
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: people and insert a digital thermometer. That's what you're asking

457
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: me to do. Got it? Good idea? So you know

458
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: the problem is is that your adopted practice. You have

459
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: to do that every single time. You know, you can't say, well,

460
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it on some cases, I'm not

461
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: going to do it on the others. Because if you

462
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: take that in that your office adopted policy and you

463
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: go into court with it. Defense attorneys can potentially eat

464
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 1: you up. They'll say, well, you did it on all

465
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: these other cases, what do you do in this case?

466
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: In your data kind of invalid at this point, and

467
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: you see how this can become a real problem. And plus,

468
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm just not a fan of making

469
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: incisions in dead bodies at the scene in an uncontrolled environment.

470
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: And look, maybe that is very accurate, but I have

471
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: to ask this question, and I don't know, is the

472
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: data that you're going to glean from that one procedure

473
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: is it worth compromising a case. It's kind of like,

474
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: you know, for years there were people that said, oh,

475
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: well we need to do a rectal temperature at a

476
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: scene on a dead body. Well, if that's going to

477
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: be your office policy, what about rape cases? Are you

478
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: going to take a foreign object at a suspected rape

479
00:30:54,360 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: homicide case and do a rectal temperature at the scene

480
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: because you're getting close to the core kind of And

481
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: maybe the data is valid, but I think there's more

482
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 1: important evidence that can be gleaned from I don't know, directum.

483
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: Than be destroying evidence. You're ready to get the temperature.

484
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so is the data actually worth it? Now let

485
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: me run this down to you. So with about the

486
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 1: first hour after death, you're going to lose about a

487
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: degree and a half to two degrees of temp that's

488
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: been generated in life. You're going to lose that temperature

489
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: off the body after the first hour. Then for the

490
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: next next twelve hours up to the twelfth hour, you're

491
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: losing one degree. Okay, So if you start off at

492
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: ninety eight point six, you can do the math from there.

493
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: So when you get to that twelfth hour after death,

494
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: you've heard people say, well, you've assumed room temperature. That's

495
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: kind of what it means. That means that you're and

496
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: I teach my classes at Jacksonville State this and it's

497
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: kind of gruesome, I know, but it's reality. You're just

498
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: like any other inanimate object that dwells that same space,

499
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: So a piece of furniture, a desk, you know, a

500
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: book bag, whatever it is. Because the life that once

501
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: existed within that shell of a person, you're no longer

502
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: going back cellular the respiration.

503
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: Your body's not.

504
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: Producing anything at that point, Okay, you are truly dead

505
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: at that point, and so there's nothing coming off of

506
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: the body as far as ratiing heat. Or anything like that.

507
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: So that can be it can be a real problem.

508
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: That's why my default position, I think pretty much throughout

509
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: my career was always either warm to the touch or

510
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: cool to the touch. But beyond that, what am I

511
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: going to glean by? You know, what they're saying nowadays

512
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: is kind of the industry standard of making an incision

513
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: and embodying and inserting. And this is happening. You know,

514
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: people think, oh, come on morning, now it happens. It

515
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: happens out there, there are people engaging in this practice.

516
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: I think it's foolhardy, it's reckless. It truly is, because

517
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: I think that the data that is obtained from that

518
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: that particular procedure, it's not worth the risk of ruining

519
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: an entire investigation. So at the risk of being crass,

520
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: if you've ever had a stomach virus at any point

521
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: in time and you've had to go in to make

522
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: an offering to the porcelain God, you have seen your

523
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: stomach contents, okay, and it's not a lot different from

524
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: what we see in the morgue. The only thing is

525
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: is that when you're kneeling before the porcelain God, you're

526
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: not studying it as a matter of fact, you're holding

527
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: your head and you're thinking, God, please stop the room

528
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: from spending. Please, I promise I'll do whatever. I guess

529
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: I'm talking about being drunk now, I guess I promise

530
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: I'll never do this again. You know, you're making all

531
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: these promises to God that I won't do this again.

532
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: And if you've got a bug, it's it's horrible as well.

533
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're not thinking about necessarily what's coming

534
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: out of you. You just know that it's coming out of you.

535
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: And for us in medical legal death investigation, Dave, that's

536
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: something that, as disgusting and gross as it sounds, that's

537
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: something that we actually take our time trying to understand.

538
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: You know, I told you this before we started. When

539
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: Loadanna's nephew was murdered, there was a question he was

540
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: giving a friend a ride home and you know, attacked

541
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: the victim kind of thing. He was in the wrong

542
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: place at the wrong time. Talk about your innocent victim.

543
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 2: He really was. But because he was in his early

544
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: twenties and he was out late. It was two thirty

545
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: in the morning. They want to know alcohol, drugs, and

546
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: stomach contents. Were their pills in there what was going on,

547
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 2: And what they found out was that there was no alcohol,

548
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: there was no drug, there was no pills. They actually

549
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: had the food that he had when he drove through

550
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: Hearty's late at night and got a traditional meal because

551
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 2: he was hungry, and that was one of as weird

552
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: as it sounds, it was very comforting for the family

553
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: because they had been put through all of this idea

554
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: that somehow their dead nephew, their dead grandson deserved it,

555
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: you know, And it was like he was giving a

556
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: guy a ride home and talk about your innocent victim.

557
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: But that was one thing, and we actually they asked

558
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: me about that. The family did later on about a

559
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: number of things with the case, and is something I

560
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: told you too many times people go through an entire

561
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: case with a loved one who dies in a way

562
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: other than natural, and there is so much going on,

563
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: they don't get answers that years later mean something. You know,

564
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: why did this happen? Or what does this mean? And

565
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: I'm thankful I was able to answer those questions. So

566
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: I had to look up a lot of them I knew,

567
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: but still I got them those answers, and it really

568
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: did help. There was a grieving process that had continued

569
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: for fifteen years, and I was able to help with

570
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: that in the end. And I did want to ask

571
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 2: you to mention something about Kathy maybut that was the

572
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: corner in Idaho. Yeah, you mentioned a few minutes ago,

573
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: and I went back and I pulled up my notes

574
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: from what did we learn in the first three days?

575
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: Because she remember, she was all over the place.

576
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I gotta let me interject real quick, and

577
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: I'll shut my mouth.

578
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:31,919
Speaker 2: No.

579
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: The thing, no, no, no, The thing about it is

580
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: that's foreboden in my world. Yes, you're a corner or

581
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: medical examiner, you know, to keep your mouth shut. You're

582
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: inside the investigative bubble. You take your cues from the police. Now, look,

583
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: if you're an elected corner, godspeed. I mean, you can

584
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: do what you want to do, all right.

585
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: And that's what this was correct.

586
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, she's and she's a nurse and an attorney, right,

587
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: and she got elected to the office of corner, which

588
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: is cool. I have no problem with that. However, if

589
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: you're inside the investigative bubble, there's just certain things that

590
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: we know that we don't because you still have killer

591
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: on the loose at this point in tom.

592
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: Right, we're talking two days after Yeah, Yeah, and Joe,

593
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: this is what this is a summary, this is what

594
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: I've got from it. I was shocked, and I remember

595
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: when we had this information of double checking because I thought,

596
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: this has got to be wrong. This has got to

597
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: be internet rumor. You know, it can't be right, because

598
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: I've never heard this coming out of somebody's mouth this

599
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: close to an investigation. Multiple stab wounds. She stated that

600
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: each victim suffered multiple stab wounds, pretty extensive wounds. Actually,

601
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: she described the wounds as pretty extensive, set a large knife.

602
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: Victims were likely attacked with a large knife, according to

603
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: preliminary autopsy, some defensive wounds. At least one victim showed

604
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: signs of defensive wounds, suggesting they may have woken up

605
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 2: during the attack, because if you remember, they were all

606
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 2: attacked while they were sleeping. Yeah, she said some defensive

607
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 2: wounds tears or tears rather tears and big open gouges.

608
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: Not a term I would use, but.

609
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: This is what kaylgan Zava's father said. Kathy Maybe shared

610
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 2: with him, described those wounds on his daughter as big

611
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: open gouges and tears. Now. She also said that based

612
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: on that the murderer was pretty angry. It was a

613
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: pretty angry attacker. They were killed in their beds. Now

614
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: we have actually heard a little bit different on this.

615
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, we have. Yeah, there's you know, there's a

616
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: number of things floating around right now. And again it

617
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: comes comes back from of the day Line, the dump

618
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: that happened with date Line, which we're still waiting to

619
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: find out who leaked that information. It doesn't surprise me

620
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: in the news media ran with it, but it's just

621
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: the fact that it was, that it's out there. And

622
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: again going back to the corner's assessment, you know, you

623
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 1: can talk about I guess if you want to tears

624
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: and goalges, which is I.

625
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: Want to ask you something that you could say that

626
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: I've got to ask you if what it means? What's

627
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: that she said there were no significant bruising. Now we

628
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 2: know that there is a seven hour interval at least

629
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: between the times of the murders and the time that

630
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: nine one one was called. At least seven hours. Kathy

631
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: may but at the time said she thought that might

632
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: have been killed around two am. Now they now have

633
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 2: moved that time to after four am, before four thirty am,

634
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: before four to twenty actually, but no significant bruising. But

635
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: there was a little bit of bruising, but nothing significant.

636
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 2: Is that not an uncommon occurrence in a We're seeing

637
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: bodies at least seven and by the time she got

638
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: out there, it had to be even more than just seven.

639
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: It had to have been closer to ten hours by

640
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: the time she got out there. She didn't get out

641
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: there in the first thirty minutes or so.

642
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: No, I can't imagine they would have locked They would

643
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: have locked the scene down. Police would have had had

644
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: a what's over? But if you remember as well, the

645
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: DA showed up out there too, I'll never forget, you know,

646
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: And apparently he had walked the guy with a big

647
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: beard he'd walked through as well at some point in time.

648
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: So I guess what it comes down to as far

649
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: as the duties of the corner and the assessment of

650
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: these kids, is how much data was collected at the

651
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: scene relative to you know, we had talked about rigidity,

652
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: we had talked about we talked about body temperature. Do

653
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: we even have an understanding as to whether or not

654
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: the bodies were cool or worn to the touch? I

655
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: think that's important. And then you know, bringing it back

656
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: to Zanta. What what's the one thing here, and this

657
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: isn't a trick question, what's the one thing that we

658
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: know that Xana was doing that was she was one

659
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: of the last things that she was reportedly doing relative

660
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: to food, door Dash she was in door Dash showed

661
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: up and you know, one of my questions is what

662
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: kind of food was it?

663
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: Was?

664
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: Any of it consumed? And going back to earlier in

665
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: the evening when Maddie and Kaylee had one for you know,

666
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: they went to the grub truck, right, so they're going

667
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: to have food on board as well.

668
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 2: And would that would that be in their stomach contents?

669
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: I mean I don't know enough yah. Yeah.

670
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: So so with generally, generally we as humans and this

671
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: this is this is heavily depended upon whether or not

672
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: we have we have some kind of gastrointestinal problem. You know,

673
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: is our stomach and digestive system functioning normally? Okay, So

674
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: that's the caveat to this. So it takes it takes

675
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: about four to six hours four to six hours for

676
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: the stomach to empty. So where is it empty? It

677
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: empties into the small intestine. The small intestine is slower,

678
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, small intestine. You know, you heard these wild

679
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: stories about how long the small intestine is. Well it

680
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: the small intestine takes about twelve hours to eliminate. Okay,

681
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: it's going to be So if you block that and

682
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: you say, well, what happened, you know during this period

683
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 1: of time, there's not a lot you know, you can

684
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: there's some appreciable evidence in the small intestine. But if

685
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: you go back to the stomach and you have you

686
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: have food remnant in the stomach, gastric content as it

687
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 1: referred to. When you open that stomach, and when we

688
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: take out the stomach at autopsy, you clip it at

689
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: where essentially I won't go into all the specific anatomical terms,

690
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: but just think about where the esophka is coming down,

691
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: descending out of the mouth, descends right before it gets

692
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: his stomach. You tie it off and you clip it. Okay,

693
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: Then you clip the end of the stomach after tying

694
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: it off, where it's about to dump into the small intestine,

695
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: so you can remove the stomach completely intact without spilling

696
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: the contents. It's messy business and most of the time

697
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: we will take the stomach away from the body over

698
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: to a sink and we've got a pan. If you've

699
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: ever seen you know, when you go to a grocery

700
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: store and you're going to put produce in a scale,

701
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: that pan that you put produce in the scale with,

702
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: that's what it looks like. We have those in the morgue.

703
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: So we will have the stainless steel pan. We'll open

704
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: the stomach in the pan and dump out the contents

705
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: in there, and that way we don't lose anything. Because

706
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: I've worked with forendsic pathologists in the morgue before that

707
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: would literally open the stomach inside the cavity. Well, that's

708
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 1: that's dangerous business because if you don't, if you don't

709
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: dissect out the stomach and per the evisceration and you

710
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: remove the stomach, if you just try to do it

711
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: in there the interior of the body or the cavity, okay,

712
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: it's very bloody stuff. You've got standing blood that's in there.

713
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: So now you're going to commingle the stomach contents. Everything

714
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: gets very confused, so it's best to take it out.

715
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: And so if you have stomach content, you know that

716
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 1: this person had eaten four to six hours roughly, because

717
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: it takes that time for the stomach to clear all right.

718
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: Another thing that's dependent is if you drink. If you

719
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 1: drink a sports shake, okay, that ain't the same as

720
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: going and eating a Porterhouse steak and a baked potato.

721
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: It's going to take a lot, a lot longer for

722
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: that pass through your system. Okay, so you have to

723
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: take that into account. But here's what's kind of interesting.

724
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 1: Day you had talked about this loved one of yours

725
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: that had died, and he had gone I think you

726
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: said he'd gone to Hearty's, which serves these giganic hamburgers.

727
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: All right, Well, you know when you get when you

728
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 1: open up the stomach, you can actually appreciate. People think

729
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: they chew their food really well, they really don't. You

730
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: can actually look. You can see ground beef. Pasta is

731
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: one of the worst things. You can see spaghetti. You

732
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: can make out what kind of noodles there are. Hot

733
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: Dogs are probably at the top of list because they're encased,

734
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: so you either have a natural casing, which is like

735
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: an intestine, or you have one of the disgusting I'm

736
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: a big Nathan's hot dog fan. I love Nathan's because

737
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: there they have a natural casing. All right, I'm not

738
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: a fan of like things that have I won't name

739
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: a brand, things that have synthetic case intona. And so

740
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 1: even with that, hot dogs will remain in place. You'll

741
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: see that anything like grains, corn rice, vegetables, broccoli for instance,

742
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: Lettuce doesn't. It's not like you chew it up and

743
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: it's gone. Generally, things like soups, those sorts of things

744
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: where the vegetables that are contained in there are cooked down.

745
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: But there's a lot that you can recognize. And the

746
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: reason I'm not saying this in order to discuss listeners

747
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 1: what I'm The reason I'm saying this is because there's

748
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: valuable information contained in the stomach, particularly if you're talking

749
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: about a drug. God, maybe somebody has ingested something that

750
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: was toxic. That's why that from that, when we remove

751
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: the stomach, will actually get a very large plastic test

752
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: tube and will collect the stomach contents and put a

753
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: lift on it. We actually submit that to the state

754
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: crime lab because you can run you can run test

755
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 1: on that, you can actually do toxicology off of that.

756
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 2: That's I was going to ask you, how does alcohol

757
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: play a factor in what is in your stomach? Like

758
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: is wine different than beer? And is whiskey different than

759
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: what yeah, well.

760
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, well. The thing about it is, this is kind

761
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: of an interesting little side. If you've ever been around

762
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: somebody that had been as my granddaddy, you say, pulling

763
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: a cork the night before, the next the next morning,

764
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: I don't care if they brush your teeth, showered, shaved,

765
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: put on aqua velva, high karate, English leather, pick your

766
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: poison or Georgio. You can still smell the alcohol coming

767
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: off their body. If you think that's intense around a

768
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: living person. If you've got somebody that has been drinking

769
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: the night before and they died, like in a car crash,

770
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: or maybe they got no fight and they were hammered,

771
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: you know when they when you open the body, and

772
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,319
Speaker 1: I'm talking about not even opening some I'm just talking

773
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 1: about the initial opening of the body, it like rushes

774
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: out like a big gasse at fist and punches you

775
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: right in the nose. You have that smell that like

776
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: permeates everything. It's everywhere, and so you can It's the

777
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 1: only way I can really describe it is that it's

778
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: sickly sweet. It's got this sickly sweet odor to it,

779
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: much like you know the smell that comes off of

780
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: somebody's body that's been drunk. They have that kind of

781
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: sickly sweet smell. It's even more pronounced in the dead

782
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: when you open the body. I used to work with

783
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: forensic pathologists. Guy's dead now. He was really, really old

784
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: and very listen. To say that forensic pathologists are eccentric

785
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: is an insult to eccentric people, because they are so

786
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: so eccentric. This guy used to claim, and he was

787
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: he he fancied himself a wine connoisseur. He was in

788
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 1: New Orleans, so you'd go to all of these beautiful

789
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: creole restaurants and he would always sample wise. He used

790
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: to claim that just by the odor, he could claim

791
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: he could state what type of wine they had been drinking.

792
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you're so full of it's you're so full

793
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: of it. You can't do that. But for us, you know,

794
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: in the morgue, the gastric content tells a lot about

795
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: the activity of an individual. You know, we don't think

796
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: about like passively. If we're if we're eating, if we're

797
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: eating either for nutrition or we're eating because of stress

798
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. We might pick up a handful of something

799
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: We're gonna pop it in our mouth or we just

800
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: grab a quick something to eat. Well, you don't know

801
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: if that ingestion of that thing is going to be

802
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: the last thing you ever consume and that's going to

803
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: travel with you. So that's one of the reasons. And

804
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: I from a scientific standpoint, I value the information that

805
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: I gleaned from gast content. But probably out of all

806
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: of the postmarm interval elements, it has to be postmarmal

807
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: avidity or live mortis for me. And here's why all

808
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: of these other things are so and particularly riger mortis

809
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: and an alger mortise, which is body temperature, they're so

810
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: heavily environmentally dependent, Dave liver mortis is not so. Just

811
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: imagine if you've got someone that dies sitting like the

812
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: guy you know, I showed you the image the other

813
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: day when we did the first segment of this teaching

814
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: series about decomposition. The guy that was seated in the chair, well,

815
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,280
Speaker 1: the guy that was seated in the chair that died

816
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: of an m I just a natural death, had a

817
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: heart attack based upon how he seated. The blood because

818
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: it's no longer pumping through the body, it's going to

819
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: settle to the gravitationally dependent areas of his body. Gravity

820
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: is like the one constant universe that kind of never changes. Now,

821
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: if I had I've got an old friend that's an astrophysicist,

822
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: probably one of the brightest people I've ever met in

823
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: my life. As you can imagine Country's butter too. You

824
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't you wouldn't suspect this guy's got PhD In astrophysics

825
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: from Clemson. I used to eat lunch with him. I

826
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 1: just sit there amazed by this guy. He would dispute

827
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: this with me because you know, I'd say gravity is

828
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: the one constant, it doesn't vary. He say, oh, well,

829
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: if you go to the poles, it's different. You know,

830
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: if you're on the equator, it's different. We understand what

831
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: we're saying here. It's not as it's not as variable

832
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: as temperature.

833
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: All right.

834
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: So if you're seated in a chairing and you have

835
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: somebody that passes away, the blood is going to settle

836
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: well to the ankles, the feet. We'll actually see the

837
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: feet swell, they'll turn purple. That's why it's called How

838
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: many times have you ever heard somebody say they didn't

839
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: have another adjue to describe how angry they were, and

840
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: they said, I was livid like that. Well, that's where

841
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: we get this term live or mortis. It's or post

842
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: mortem lividity. It's that kind of purple coloration that comes

843
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: on the body. And it's not a decompositional change, you know,

844
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: where you'll see bodies that will go kind of purple

845
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: and black and that sort of thing. It's not like that.

846
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: This is the blood pooling. It goes first to the vessels,

847
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: the capillary beds. They're not meant for storing blood, they're

848
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: meant for moving blood. And those little beds burst and

849
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: when they burst, it leaches out into what's called the

850
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: interstitial tissue, the kind of the fatty tissue that surrounds

851
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: all the vessels and it stains it. And dude, once

852
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: it's gotten in there, you can't change it. So if

853
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: you like, for instance, we have cases where people will

854
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: be killed in one location, the person might think about

855
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 1: whether they're going to do with the body. They'll crumple

856
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: up the body after it's been laying on the floor

857
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: for about an hour or two hours, and they'll put

858
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: them in a trunk. Well, the first time they lay

859
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: them on their left side, they've been laying on the

860
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: left side where they were killed, they place them on

861
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: the trunk, laying on the right side. So you might

862
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: have two presentations of post mortal avidity. And before it

863
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: gets fixed, it can actually migrate around, and that's a

864
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: real problem, you know, if you're trying to do an assessment.

865
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,479
Speaker 1: So it takes a measured point in time for post

866
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: mortal avidity to fix, and once it's fixed and it

867
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: stains the skin, it's not going to move. And so

868
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: if you've got a body, if we come to a

869
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: scene and we've got an individual that is lying in

870
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: a prone position, which means their chest is in contact

871
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: with the ground, and I show up at the scene

872
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: and they're laying like that, but yet they've got post

873
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: mortal avidity between their shoulder blades, I'm going to know

874
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: that before I arrived, somebody moved that body. At one

875
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: point in time, they were face up and then all

876
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: of a sudden, someone got the grand idea to either

877
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: flip them or move them, you know. And this goes

878
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: to scene staging as well. Well. Going back to our

879
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: four unfortunate students in Idaho, based upon the timeframe of

880
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: postmartal lividity, I can tell you this post wal avidity

881
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: is close to being completely fixed by the time the

882
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: corner shows up at the scene. That's how much of

883
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 1: a lag time you've had. And the way we test

884
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: it in the way I would hope that she had

885
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 1: tested it at the scene is if you get one

886
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: of these big purple, vivacious areas, if you take your

887
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 1: thumb on a gloved hand and you depress that area

888
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: that's purple and it doesn't blanch, it still stays. That

889
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: means it's fixed. That means that those little appt their

890
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: beds have erupted and it's still you know, it's no

891
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: longer blanchable, whereas you can get that staining.

892
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 2: But if you.

893
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: Press it and it blanches, that's called blanchable avidity. That

894
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 1: means that it hasn't fixed yet. And so for both

895
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: of those, both those instances, there's a measured amount of

896
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: time that you know, it takes for this to occur.

897
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: So when we're looking it'll be a parent. You can

898
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: see it kind of pop up on the radar within

899
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: twenty to thirty minutes after death. It's kind of like

900
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: the kid that you saw when you I wasn't one

901
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: of these kids that could do that that you go

902
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: to playground with and they can hang upside down the

903
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: monkey bars and their head turns the red and it

904
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: kind of swells. Less blood set now it still moving,

905
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying. So if within twenty

906
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: to thirty minutes, you'll see the blood kind of pooling

907
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: in these areas and it's going to take and intensity

908
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: is going to increase up until about the seventh or

909
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: eight hour, and then it's there. It's not moving. So

910
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be an interesting set of data to have

911
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: about the cases in Idaho? Was a lividity fixed where

912
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: there are multiple presentations of lividity. And I hope, I

913
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: certainly hope that coming up in August that all of

914
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: these questions there are many, but all of these questions

915
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: that can be answered, and that can be answered through

916
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: science and that assessment that hopefully took place on that

917
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:50,439
Speaker 1: day back in twenty twenty two in November, I hope

918
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: it will thorough and I hope that we learned more

919
00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: about what happened that night. I'm Joseph got Morgan and

920
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: this is bodybags.

921
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: H