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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome back to The Spill, Drilled's weekly newscast

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Speaker 2: where we're bringing you a wide range of news, analysis,

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Speaker 2: and interviews with authors, experts, and all sorts of other

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Speaker 2: smart people thinking about climate from a variety of angles.

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Speaker 2: It comes out every Friday in between our narrative seasons. Today,

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Speaker 2: an interview Drilled contributor Adam Lowenstein did earlier this year

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Speaker 2: with political scientist Thea Riofrancos about her book Extraction, which

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Speaker 2: explores the arms race for lithium and other critical minerals.

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Speaker 2: The book has been out for a while now, but

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Speaker 2: everything Riofrancos wrote and said in this interview remains true.

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Speaker 2: The race for critical minerals is on. whether it's for

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Speaker 2: green technology, the AI boom, or militarization. In fact, today

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Speaker 2: that's even more true. At this very moment, Peter Thiel,

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Speaker 2: Elon Musk, and their bros are pulling off a soft

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Speaker 2: coup in Argentina, where President Javier Millet is happy to

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Speaker 2: give them both unlimited space to build data centers and

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Speaker 2: unfettered access to the country's lithium stores. You can find

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Speaker 2: a transcript of this interview on our website at Drill.media.

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Speaker 2: And don't forget to sign up there for our newsletter, too.

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Speaker 2: Here's Adam's conversation with Zia.

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Speaker 1: One question I was wondering about, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this is necessarily of interest to The average listener of Drilled,

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Speaker 1: but it's definitely of interest to me, you mentioned in

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Speaker 1: the acknowledgments to the book that one of the challenges

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Speaker 1: was staying on top of all of the developments in

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Speaker 1: the world of lithium and extraction and climate, while also

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Speaker 1: you went around the world for this book. There's a

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Speaker 1: ton of history in it. just from a, like a

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Speaker 1: reporting perspective, how did you, or even just an information

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Speaker 1: management perspective, I'm curious how you pulled that off or

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Speaker 1: if it was just like chaos until, until you couldn't

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Speaker 1: edit anymore.

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Speaker 3: I love that question and I'm glad you read the

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Speaker 3: acknowledgements because I gave a lot of background to the

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Speaker 3: process and the acknowledgements or I tried to kind of

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Speaker 3: draw the reader in to like both what inspired the book,

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Speaker 3: but also the challenges I faced and the resources and

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Speaker 3: people that kind of supported me in dealing with that

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Speaker 3: and maybe kind of break open the black box of writing,

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Speaker 3: which is often seen as like such an individual exercise,

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Speaker 3: but inevitably involves a broader community or social network. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm happy to talk a little bit about that. You know,

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Speaker 3: there are kind of two points of entry to the question.

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Speaker 3: One is like how I struggled with the perennial feeling

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Speaker 3: of being... both out of date and prescient, which are

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Speaker 3: kind of opposites. But, you know, inevitably, if you're working

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Speaker 3: on something in real time, as you know, and the

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Speaker 3: Drill Networks knows from all of the reporting stuff, if

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Speaker 3: you're working on unfolding events, you lag, your analysis lags

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Speaker 3: the events. And by the time your analysis is written down,

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Speaker 3: the events might have changed. So that's one challenge. On

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Speaker 3: the other hand, I also happen to like choose a

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Speaker 3: topic that was when I chose it seemingly not as

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Speaker 3: salient or important as it became. So in some ways

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Speaker 3: I was like ahead of the curve, in other ways

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Speaker 3: I was always behind the curve. And so that itself

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Speaker 3: was something to grapple with and to figure out how

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Speaker 3: I was like situating myself and my analysis in the

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Speaker 3: trajectory overall. I have a couple more things to say

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Speaker 3: on that front, but that's just like one way to

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Speaker 3: think about it. The other is much more brass tacks.

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Speaker 3: Like how do you actually organize information, collate it, keep

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Speaker 3: track of it, and then draw upon it when you're

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Speaker 3: actually drafting? You know, that might be a little in

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Speaker 3: the weeds or granular. Like I could talk about how

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Speaker 3: I use Evernote and like, you know, how I use

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Speaker 3: photographs during field work as a way to like have

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Speaker 3: more visual detail that I can draw on later. You know,

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Speaker 3: so there are different... different means that I use to

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Speaker 3: store information, but that became extremely important. In fact, you know,

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Speaker 3: one thing maybe I will say and is relevant to

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Speaker 3: fans of a very investigative style podcasts and news network

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Speaker 3: like Drilled, where you're often like uncovering things that maybe

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Speaker 3: elite or powerful actors don't want you to know or

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Speaker 3: don't want you to dig into too much. Something that

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Speaker 3: I found was indispensable was being able to track how

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Speaker 3: websites change over time. And it became a data point.

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Speaker 3: Corporations scrub their websites all the time. Government entities scrub

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Speaker 3: their websites. And sometimes either something you need is like

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Speaker 3: on an earlier version of the website, or you actually

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Speaker 3: want to show that elites are manipulating the framing of

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Speaker 3: information and you need a way to demonstrate that. And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, I learned a long time ago when I

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Speaker 3: first did field work, like 15 years ago for my

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Speaker 3: dissertation to take screen caps of websites so that I

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Speaker 3: could capture them at a certain moment. But I also

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Speaker 3: learned to use like the Wayback Machine and archive.ph to

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Speaker 3: get prior versions, right? Maybe I hadn't thought to do

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Speaker 3: that in the moment. And so it, you know, the

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Speaker 3: information storage challenge also was a way that I conducted

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Speaker 3: my analysis in a way. I'll say one other thing

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Speaker 3: on the general feeling of being ahead of the game,

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Speaker 3: being behind the game and kind of how I grappled

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Speaker 3: with that. Maybe just two short points there. The draft

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Speaker 3: of this book that I first wrote, I wrote during

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Speaker 3: a very frenzied moment of the lithium market. So this

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Speaker 3: was in like 2022, 2023, when prices were extremely high.

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Speaker 3: There was really broad concern about market availability and market shortages.

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Speaker 3: And those moments of like, you know, commodity booms, we

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Speaker 3: could call them when commodity prices are really high and

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Speaker 3: markets are really tight, inflected people's strategies, governments, corporations, even

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Speaker 3: social movements, because they're orienting to this moment where there's

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Speaker 3: heightened interest in a commodity and where there is this

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Speaker 3: feeling of scarcity. And that itself played into the geopolitical

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Speaker 3: dynamics that I track in the book. And so a

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Speaker 3: first draft of this manuscript was written in a moment

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Speaker 3: that was so thoroughly shaped by a feeling of scarcity

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Speaker 3: or shortage. And I was smart enough to understand that

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Speaker 3: that didn't mean lithium was geologically scarce. It just meant

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Speaker 3: that there was a market imbalance. But if you're writing

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Speaker 3: in a certain moment that has a certain kind of

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Speaker 3: affective structure to it almost, you inevitably get caught up

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Speaker 3: in that a little bit, just like I'm sure folks

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Speaker 3: writing about the AI boom are kind of caught up

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Speaker 3: in this idea of a kind of sector that's rapidly

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Speaker 3: growing and seems like it's endlessly going to grow. And

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Speaker 3: just by the nature of writing and editing, it turned

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Speaker 3: it out that I needed to do more revisions on

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Speaker 3: my book, which meant I sat with it a little

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Speaker 3: bit longer. And by the time I was like ready

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Speaker 3: with my second draft, that had really calmed down. And

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Speaker 3: the reason I mentioned that is because, you know, at

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Speaker 3: first I almost thought like, oh no, I missed the moment.

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Speaker 3: Then I thought, oh wait, my analysis is really pegged

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Speaker 3: to like a certain moment in the price cycle. Like

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Speaker 3: that's not right. You know? And then my third thought,

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Speaker 3: which ended up, I think where I landed and was

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Speaker 3: the correct way to think about it was thank God

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Speaker 3: in a way that I didn't publish it at that,

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Speaker 3: of that really frenzied moment. And that I was able

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Speaker 3: to have a more near-term historical perspective on the booms

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Speaker 3: and busts of these markets and analyze both booms and busts,

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Speaker 3: which are both like two sides of the coin of

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Speaker 3: any commodities market. And so in a way, you know,

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Speaker 3: my first draft not being perfect, so to speak, and

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Speaker 3: therefore needing more revision, like gave me the chance to

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Speaker 3: have some historical perspective. And just one other thing. You've

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Speaker 3: really opened a can of worms with this question. I'll

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Speaker 3: just say one more piece.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff here that we're going to

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Speaker 1: touch on. So it's a great introduction to a lot

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Speaker 1: of topics I want to ask you about.

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Speaker 3: Well, this might even be particularly germane to some of

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Speaker 3: the political landscape changes that have unfolded while I was

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Speaker 3: writing the book and since the book. There was certainly

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Speaker 3: a moment where my book, as I was working on

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Speaker 3: maybe at this point the final manuscript, felt like so

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Speaker 3: perfectly timed with the Inflation Reduction Act, with Biden's policies,

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Speaker 3: with divisions within the Biden government around mining, the harms

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Speaker 3: of mining versus the need for green technologies. I felt

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Speaker 3: like so in the moment on that front. Then, of course,

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Speaker 3: Biden doesn't even run again for office. The Harris campaign

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Speaker 3: doesn't win. Trump becomes president. And there was, you know,

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Speaker 3: quite a moment, you know, of a few months where

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Speaker 3: I was concerned, like, maybe my book is just about

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Speaker 3: an era that a bygone era, almost an American politics

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Speaker 3: and an American climate policy and supply chains. Lo and behold,

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Speaker 3: like it turns out, which I kind of knew, but

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Speaker 3: has been even more intense recently, Trump is like obsessed

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Speaker 3: with critical minerals. And what that teaches us, and I

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Speaker 3: was able to kind of sneak this in with some

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Speaker 3: final edits in the manuscript, that critical minerals and the

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Speaker 3: rush to mine them can be justified in all sorts

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Speaker 3: of ways. That does not mean that I view the

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Speaker 3: military or artificial intelligence justifications as the same as the

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Speaker 3: climate justifications. I take the climate justifications much more seriously,

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Speaker 3: and I think they come with real dilemmas. And yet

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Speaker 3: we do see that there is a solid consensus among

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Speaker 3: policymakers and political elites that these minerals are important. And

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Speaker 3: what we see is that they're shifting justifications for why

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Speaker 3: they are important. And that itself was helpful for me

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Speaker 3: to learn, even if it kind of ran through the

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Speaker 3: process initially of me thinking that this book would not

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Speaker 3: be relevant in a Trump era or in the moment

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Speaker 3: that we're living in right now.

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Speaker 2: Hi there, Amy here.

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Speaker 1: Guess what?

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book and it's out now, available wherever

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Speaker 2: you get your books. That includes eBooks and audio books too.

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Speaker 2: In Brought to You By, I've combined more than a

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Speaker 2: decade's worth of reporting to walk folks through all the

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Speaker 2: different layers of the information ecosystem and all the different

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Speaker 2: ways it's been warped by corporate propaganda. Folks are describing

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Speaker 2: it as both serious and well-researched and a fun read.

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Speaker 2: If you're a listener of this show, I guarantee you'll

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Speaker 2: like it. I also read the audiobook, so that makes

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Speaker 2: it essentially a drilled season binge.

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Speaker 1: Check it out.

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Speaker 2: I'll link to where you can get it in the

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Speaker 2: show notes. And thanks for the support.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned AI because there were, as

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Speaker 1: I was reading it, I was struck by some of

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Speaker 1: the parallels between the world of AI and data centers

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Speaker 1: and the inevitability of artificial general intelligence, at least according

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Speaker 1: to these companies, and some of the same rhetoric and

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Speaker 1: the narratives around extraction and mining specifically. And kind of

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Speaker 1: as a starting point for folks who have not read

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Speaker 1: the book, there's kind of a core paradox or a

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Speaker 1: trade-off that you kind of state upfront and sort of

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Speaker 1: work through over the course of the book, which is

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Speaker 1: that on the one hand, at least according to the

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Speaker 1: conventional wisdom, extraction is necessary to save the planet. On

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Speaker 1: the other hand, extraction threatens the environment, particularly at a

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Speaker 1: local level among communities. Can you just describe that paradox

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Speaker 1: a little bit and how it came to you as

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Speaker 1: something that we as a society, we're going to encounter

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Speaker 1: at some point, even though that kind of sense of

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Speaker 1: trade-off in most cases we have not confronted yet?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it came to me in a couple

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Speaker 3: of moments. The first is the origins of this book,

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Speaker 3: which originated while I was very active in the movement

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Speaker 3: and policy thinking around a Green New Deal. And I

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Speaker 3: was very active in that situated in the United States,

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Speaker 3: the Green New Deal usually being understood as a domestic

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Speaker 3: policy paradigm. And simultaneous to my work in advocating for

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Speaker 3: a Green New Deal and helping to flesh out like

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Speaker 3: what a Green New Deal might look like, what its

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Speaker 3: policy content might be, I was someone that already had

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Speaker 3: worked on resource extraction and the environmental and social impacts

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Speaker 3: of extraction, particularly in Latin America for a long time. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, by the time I was thinking about a

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Speaker 3: Green New Deal, I had been thinking about the politics

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Speaker 3: of oil and mining in the global south for about

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Speaker 3: a decade. And at some point, those clicked together. I

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Speaker 3: realized that, you know, even if under a best case scenario,

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Speaker 3: a Green New Deal, or even a less radical version

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Speaker 3: of an energy transition, the point of it is to

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Speaker 3: leave fossil fuels underground, that didn't mean the end of extraction.

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Speaker 3: It just meant the extraction of different raw materials and

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Speaker 3: specifically that the technologies and infrastructures that are needed to

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Speaker 3: furnish a zero emissions economy and society themselves require resource

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Speaker 3: extraction and in order to be manufactured and built and deployed.

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Speaker 3: And so that was something for me to sit with.

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Speaker 3: And I still believe this and very much feel this

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Speaker 3: way today that the climate crisis is the top existential

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Speaker 3: threat facing the planet, humanity, ecosystems, everything that we should

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Speaker 3: hold dear. And yet the technological advances solutions, quote unquote,

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Speaker 3: we can come back to that word if we want,

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Speaker 3: but the technological solutions that will help us decarbonize entire

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Speaker 3: economic sectors and realms of social life themselves require resource extraction,

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Speaker 3: which doesn't mean that the trade-off is like a pure equivalency.

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Speaker 3: You know, I do think that it is just urgently

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Speaker 3: important to stop extracting fossil fuels and to move towards

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Speaker 3: a renewable energy system. And I think that despite the

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Speaker 3: fact that such a system would create its own environmental harms,

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Speaker 3: especially related to extraction, but also related to siting and deployment,

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Speaker 3: depending on how well thought out a particular solar farm

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Speaker 3: is and how it interacts with the given landscape. And

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Speaker 3: so for me, it doesn't result in me opposing the

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Speaker 3: energy transition. I say that explicitly because there are analysts

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Speaker 3: and authors and activists for whom the environmental costs of

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Speaker 3: the energy transition are too much to bear. They actually

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Speaker 3: can become, you know, opposed to the energy transition because

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Speaker 3: of its heavy mining footprint, for example. I don't go there.

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Speaker 3: For me, an energy transition is absolutely vital. And it's

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Speaker 3: also worth saying that we're not really in an energy

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Speaker 3: transition right now. We haven't even gotten to a point

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Speaker 3: where we're seriously leaving fossil fuels in the ground and

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Speaker 3: pivoting more dramatically and holistically to zero emissions energy sources.

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Speaker 3: So an energy transition is still something to advocate for.

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Speaker 3: It's not quite happening yet. We more have a process

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Speaker 3: of energy addition and a changing energy matrix globally. But

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Speaker 3: regardless of where we situate ourselves vis-a-vis the transition, whether

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Speaker 3: we think it started or not, or it's early stages

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Speaker 3: or not, for me, the benefits of getting off of

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Speaker 3: fossil fuels and abating the worst climate scenarios absolutely are

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Speaker 3: worth it. But that is only the beginning of the

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Speaker 3: analysis because as I learned in researching this book and

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Speaker 3: writing this book and also doing a lot of community

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Speaker 3: and public events and having these difficult conversations is that

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of different ways to transition from

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Speaker 3: a fossil-based energy system to a zero-emissions energy system. There

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Speaker 3: are many specific pathways, there are different technological configurations, there

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Speaker 3: are different distributions of costs and benefits and Huber is

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Speaker 3: both of those. And there are for sure, as I

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Speaker 3: conclude in the book, different levels of mining that can

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Speaker 3: get us to zero emissions. And so while initially it

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Speaker 3: felt to me as like a zero-sum trade-off, over time,

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Speaker 3: It's not that the tensions completely dissipated. I think that

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Speaker 3: there still are fundamental tensions because mining is an extremely

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Speaker 3: fraught process that results in irreversible landscape change and is

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Speaker 3: associated with very high levels of social harm. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: you can't just wish that away. Even a better regulated mine,

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Speaker 3: even less mining will come with some of those harms.

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Speaker 3: So the tensions are still there. But what I learned

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Speaker 3: in writing the book is that there are different ways forward.

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Speaker 3: There's much more extractive versions of the energy transition and

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Speaker 3: versions that actually intentionally try to reduce the material throughput

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Speaker 3: and raw material usage and energy usage of the entire system.

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Speaker 1: That idea that there are not different options, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of the conventional wisdom in some ways, gets at

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Speaker 1: what to me felt like one of the the most

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Speaker 1: prominent themes of the book, which is this idea of

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Speaker 1: narratives or stories, or I think, as you put it

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Speaker 1: at one point, logics or languages that we sort of

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Speaker 1: just accept as true as the only way that things are.

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Speaker 1: It's obviously a tool used by corporate interests in particular,

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Speaker 1: you know, the idea that the Atacama Desert in Chile

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Speaker 1: is just an empty desert. There's no life there, or

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Speaker 1: brine is not water. Some of these narratives are sometimes

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Speaker 1: very explicit, but there's also a more intangible way in which,

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Speaker 1: whether it's extractive companies specifically or other firms up and

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Speaker 1: down the supply chain or governments in some cases, or

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Speaker 1: even quote unquote green companies, rely on the idea that

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Speaker 1: extracting lithium as much as possible, as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 1: is the only path to tackle the climate crisis. So

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the role of narrative and story in essentially It's

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Speaker 1: upholding the status quo in the sense that it's the

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Speaker 1: same powerful interests who are winning now, who have been

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Speaker 1: winning previously. I guess it's not quite the status quo

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Speaker 1: in the sense that they're talking about it in a

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Speaker 1: green context versus just pure fossil fuel extraction.

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Speaker 3: It might be counterintuitive to... argue that narratives and language

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Speaker 3: and framing and words are important when we're talking about

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Speaker 3: such like brute material facts. You know, extraction is a

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Speaker 3: material process. It's a physical process. It's technologically mediated. It

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Speaker 3: involves human labor and machinery and stuff underground and long

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Speaker 3: time scales of geological formation. And so are the markets

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Speaker 3: and economic activities and supply chains and logistics and shipping.

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Speaker 3: All of these are like things you can touch. They

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Speaker 3: are material. We could get pretty philosophical and say that

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Speaker 3: despite the fact we can touch them, we only really

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Speaker 3: apprehend them through the medium of language. That would be

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Speaker 3: a general point I would make just about how social

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Speaker 3: life works. But a little bit more specifically, I think

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Speaker 3: that there's such an interesting, almost counterintuitive way in which

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Speaker 3: the way those very material processes are framed, are proposed,

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Speaker 3: are contested, are deliberated around, has real material consequences. Like

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Speaker 3: it actually matters whose framing and whose arguments and whose

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Speaker 3: narratives win politically or economically or socially in terms of

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Speaker 3: how much stuff comes out of the ground and who

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Speaker 3: gets access to it and where it is shipped. and

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Speaker 3: who profits from it, and who pays the environmental cost

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Speaker 3: and social cost for it. And one of the fascinating

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Speaker 3: things about studying the history of extraction, whether you frame

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Speaker 3: it as a 500 or 600-year history or a history

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Speaker 3: on the span of a few decades or the last

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Speaker 3: few years, is how contested it is as an economic sector,

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Speaker 3: how much there are actors that have completely competing narratives

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Speaker 3: about how attraction should be organized and to whose benefit,

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Speaker 3: how much those narratives can sometimes provide openings for real

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Speaker 3: upheavals in power relations. Even if then we revert back

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Speaker 3: to the more status quo, there are these moments where

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Speaker 3: everything seems up for grabs in terms of the material

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Speaker 3: substrate of the global economy. And that is because some

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Speaker 3: group of people organized themselves, used words and framings to

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Speaker 3: persuade one another, and then made a gambit, you know,

350
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Speaker 3: in the kind of global political economic arena to reorganize

351
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Speaker 3: how these supply chains operate under different terms. And then

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Speaker 3: usually that just results in a new round of struggle

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Speaker 3: where maybe the status quo or incumbent powers from the

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Speaker 3: prior moment, you know, kind of fight back with their

355
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Speaker 3: own new narratives. And so we get these... Just as

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Speaker 3: extraction is itself this layered history of resources taken from

357
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Speaker 3: similar landscapes over time, sedimenting one and another layer of extraction,

358
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Speaker 3: often in the same places, like in Chile, there's also

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Speaker 3: this kind of layers of language and of ideas and

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Speaker 3: narratives where we get both sudden changes in how people

361
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Speaker 3: think about things, but also the kind of repurposing of

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Speaker 3: historical languages. So let me give just like one or

363
00:22:56,052 --> 00:22:59,852
Speaker 3: two examples to make that less abstract. One way into

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00:22:59,892 --> 00:23:05,371
Speaker 3: this is to think about the recurrent intention on the

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Speaker 3: part of global North governments to make resources easier for

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Speaker 3: them to access and secure. Oftentimes in direct antagonism or conflict,

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Speaker 3: with Global South countries that are trying to do their

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Speaker 3: own thing with their resources, whether fund economic development, secure

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Speaker 3: fuller forms of economic sovereignty, coordinate with one another to

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Speaker 3: change the pricing and market dynamics, right? And so here,

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Speaker 3: to an educated listener, they might be aware that I'm

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Speaker 3: kind of hinting at this moment in the 1970s where

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Speaker 3: there was a big conflict between the then called third

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Speaker 3: world and the first world, you know, again, then called

375
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Speaker 3: over who was going to control the raw materials that

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Speaker 3: really fueled global capitalism, specifically oil, but also other minerals.

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Speaker 3: And in that contest, there was really a whole decade,

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Speaker 3: at least, in which global South countries gained a tremendous

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Speaker 3: amount of leverage through political ideas, such as resource sovereignty,

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Speaker 3: such as anti-colonialism, such as we should not be so

381
00:24:10,502 --> 00:24:13,792
Speaker 3: dependent on the global north for our own economic functioning.

382
00:24:14,222 --> 00:24:17,002
Speaker 3: And through those ideas and those languages and those framings,

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00:24:17,502 --> 00:24:20,722
Speaker 3: they coordinated among one another. There was a spate of

384
00:24:20,851 --> 00:24:24,811
Speaker 3: nationalizations of oil and also minerals in the 60s and 70s.

385
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Speaker 3: There was also the emergence of OPEC, which today we

386
00:24:28,232 --> 00:24:30,532
Speaker 3: can justifiably see as a bad actor, but at the

387
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Speaker 3: time was a real force of perhaps anti-colonial kind of

388
00:24:34,932 --> 00:24:38,361
Speaker 3: economic sovereignty. And so, you know, these were ideas. They

389
00:24:38,382 --> 00:24:42,181
Speaker 3: were also material practices and new forms of economic organizations.

390
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Speaker 3: And in response to that, the global north, specifically the

391
00:24:46,351 --> 00:24:49,492
Speaker 3: US as well as the UK, says, okay, wait a second,

392
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Speaker 3: we're starting to lose control of the global economy. And

393
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Speaker 3: this is not how it's supposed to work because we

394
00:24:53,792 --> 00:24:56,252
Speaker 3: colonize these places and we colonize them in part to

395
00:24:56,272 --> 00:24:59,042
Speaker 3: get their resources. And now they're like rebelling against us

396
00:24:59,121 --> 00:25:01,821
Speaker 3: and changing the rules of the economic game. And so

397
00:25:01,841 --> 00:25:05,141
Speaker 3: it was in that moment that global North countries, you know,

398
00:25:05,162 --> 00:25:08,842
Speaker 3: they couldn't do the most explicit or standard or classical

399
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Speaker 3: form of imperialism, which by that point, like, was outlawed

400
00:25:11,922 --> 00:25:14,352
Speaker 3: by international law. Not to say it never happens, but

401
00:25:14,752 --> 00:25:18,772
Speaker 3: the world had changed after 1945. And so they had

402
00:25:18,811 --> 00:25:21,912
Speaker 3: to make use of other means to secure their interests

403
00:25:21,952 --> 00:25:25,512
Speaker 3: and to secure these raw materials. For sure, they helped

404
00:25:25,552 --> 00:25:29,452
Speaker 3: support some military coups and other more interventionist modes of

405
00:25:29,772 --> 00:25:32,832
Speaker 3: getting what they wanted. But they also had to think through, well,

406
00:25:32,912 --> 00:25:36,192
Speaker 3: how do we actually ensure that we have resources ready

407
00:25:36,232 --> 00:25:40,152
Speaker 3: at hand and close by? Maybe we should exploit more

408
00:25:40,172 --> 00:25:43,762
Speaker 3: of our own domestic resources. And that was, again, particularly

409
00:25:43,782 --> 00:25:46,542
Speaker 3: in the oil economy. So that's when Alaska got super

410
00:25:46,682 --> 00:25:48,962
Speaker 3: opened up to more oil extraction. That's when the Gulf

411
00:25:48,982 --> 00:25:52,582
Speaker 3: of Mexico became a really hot oil frontier. That's when

412
00:25:52,601 --> 00:25:56,121
Speaker 3: the North Sea of the United Kingdom became a site

413
00:25:56,142 --> 00:26:00,292
Speaker 3: of offshore oil extraction. And they justified this in language

414
00:26:00,331 --> 00:26:05,901
Speaker 3: that sounds so familiar today. resource security, energy security, energy independence.

415
00:26:05,942 --> 00:26:09,171
Speaker 3: We can't rely on these third world countries, these unreliable

416
00:26:09,232 --> 00:26:12,611
Speaker 3: governments that are nationalizing and disrupting markets. We have to

417
00:26:12,652 --> 00:26:15,831
Speaker 3: have these resources at home. Today, this is called onshoring.

418
00:26:16,292 --> 00:26:19,292
Speaker 3: But you can see how the logic was first birthed

419
00:26:19,811 --> 00:26:24,452
Speaker 3: in this moment of real turbulence and of competing narratives

420
00:26:24,552 --> 00:26:30,272
Speaker 3: and competing power relations over how the world's resources and

421
00:26:30,311 --> 00:26:32,631
Speaker 3: really the global economy itself was going to be governed.

422
00:26:32,692 --> 00:26:36,012
Speaker 3: So it's just one example, but I think it shows

423
00:26:36,111 --> 00:26:41,591
Speaker 3: that language matters and that different ideas of how to

424
00:26:41,851 --> 00:26:48,212
Speaker 3: organize these resource systems actually have quite concrete material And

425
00:26:48,272 --> 00:26:52,552
Speaker 3: also just maybe the broader point that resource extraction is

426
00:26:52,892 --> 00:26:57,881
Speaker 3: a heavily contested arena of the global economy in a

427
00:26:57,942 --> 00:27:01,321
Speaker 3: way that not every sector has this amount of open

428
00:27:01,422 --> 00:27:06,662
Speaker 3: conflict between North and South, between communities and corporations, between

429
00:27:06,682 --> 00:27:10,682
Speaker 3: the great powers themselves, and sometimes even between different corporations

430
00:27:10,722 --> 00:27:11,982
Speaker 3: that have opposed interests.

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Speaker 1: That idea that at the end of the day, this

432
00:27:15,162 --> 00:27:18,502
Speaker 1: all comes back to power and power relations is a

433
00:27:18,542 --> 00:27:20,962
Speaker 1: pretty consistent through line in the book. You talk about

434
00:27:21,002 --> 00:27:25,321
Speaker 1: how supply chains are basically just vectors for how power

435
00:27:25,482 --> 00:27:30,321
Speaker 1: is imposed, how power relations play out. And then the

436
00:27:30,361 --> 00:27:33,512
Speaker 1: modern incarnation of what you were just describing, what you

437
00:27:33,532 --> 00:27:36,411
Speaker 1: alluded to there is what you call green dominance in

438
00:27:36,432 --> 00:27:37,992
Speaker 1: the book. And when I first saw that, I thought

439
00:27:38,811 --> 00:27:42,572
Speaker 1: it was describing that term green dominance was describing like,

440
00:27:43,422 --> 00:27:48,532
Speaker 1: the coming dominance of green things, clean energy things. But

441
00:27:48,571 --> 00:27:52,352
Speaker 1: it's actually using the idea of green to dominate, which

442
00:27:52,412 --> 00:27:56,131
Speaker 1: gets back to this idea of power relations and how

443
00:27:56,552 --> 00:28:00,172
Speaker 1: the global North countries, to again, use an oversimplifying term,

444
00:28:01,282 --> 00:28:05,262
Speaker 1: wish to maintain the status quo as far as sharing

445
00:28:05,302 --> 00:28:09,002
Speaker 1: power and who dominates the global economy. Could you describe

446
00:28:09,022 --> 00:28:12,752
Speaker 1: a little bit about what green dominance is and how

447
00:28:12,851 --> 00:28:15,182
Speaker 1: it ties into what you were just talking about there.

448
00:28:16,002 --> 00:28:20,542
Speaker 3: Absolutely. The idea of green dominance is the idea that

449
00:28:20,861 --> 00:28:26,822
Speaker 3: the supply chains for green technologies, whether they be lithium batteries,

450
00:28:26,982 --> 00:28:32,122
Speaker 3: electric vehicles as a whole, wind turbines, solar panels, that

451
00:28:32,162 --> 00:28:35,871
Speaker 3: the supply chains to produce those technologies that are part

452
00:28:35,912 --> 00:28:39,072
Speaker 3: of the process of decarbonization and thus, quote unquote, labeled

453
00:28:39,112 --> 00:28:47,742
Speaker 3: as green, are themselves battlefields of geoeconomic dominance. Geoeconomics may

454
00:28:47,782 --> 00:28:50,102
Speaker 3: be a new term to some listeners, but they probably

455
00:28:50,142 --> 00:28:53,602
Speaker 3: can intuit that it's a combination of geopolitics and economics.

456
00:28:54,122 --> 00:28:58,022
Speaker 3: And so geopolitics We often think of, in terms of

457
00:28:58,222 --> 00:29:00,702
Speaker 3: whether it's diplomacy or war, but we think of it

458
00:29:00,762 --> 00:29:04,762
Speaker 3: as like a political kind of concept. Geoeconomics highlights the

459
00:29:04,802 --> 00:29:09,232
Speaker 3: fact that economic activity can itself be part and parcel

460
00:29:09,392 --> 00:29:13,502
Speaker 3: of geopolitical rivalry and often actually is. And we're certainly

461
00:29:13,682 --> 00:29:15,982
Speaker 3: in an era where this is really out in the open,

462
00:29:16,782 --> 00:29:20,902
Speaker 3: where we have really intensified forms of great power conflict

463
00:29:21,502 --> 00:29:24,842
Speaker 3: that very much relate to who is at the vanguard

464
00:29:24,922 --> 00:29:29,252
Speaker 3: of different technological frontiers. Whether those are, quote, green technologies,

465
00:29:29,292 --> 00:29:33,412
Speaker 3: whether it's artificial intelligence and semiconductors, whether it's military technologies.

466
00:29:33,992 --> 00:29:37,822
Speaker 3: this suite of technologies has become an arena of really

467
00:29:37,862 --> 00:29:42,762
Speaker 3: intense competition. And one key form that that competition takes

468
00:29:43,042 --> 00:29:47,472
Speaker 3: is the willingness of states, especially though not exclusively great powers,

469
00:29:47,972 --> 00:29:52,782
Speaker 3: to use their state apparatus and use their policymaking tools

470
00:29:52,922 --> 00:29:58,542
Speaker 3: to directly intervene in the economy in order to for example,

471
00:29:58,762 --> 00:30:03,852
Speaker 3: promote domestic firms or promote the investment of domestic firms,

472
00:30:03,892 --> 00:30:09,372
Speaker 3: whether that investment is locally or overseas, to ensure access

473
00:30:09,432 --> 00:30:14,522
Speaker 3: to raw materials, to ensure access to advanced technologies, right?

474
00:30:14,562 --> 00:30:18,962
Speaker 3: We know that technologies are patented and they are property

475
00:30:19,102 --> 00:30:22,362
Speaker 3: of private companies. And so the battle over who has

476
00:30:22,462 --> 00:30:26,372
Speaker 3: which forms of innovation and technological development is itself an

477
00:30:26,392 --> 00:30:30,972
Speaker 3: arena of great power conflict. And what I noticed in

478
00:30:31,032 --> 00:30:34,732
Speaker 3: the course of my field work and research is that

479
00:30:34,752 --> 00:30:38,822
Speaker 3: a set of technologies, again, the lithium batteries, the solar panels,

480
00:30:38,902 --> 00:30:42,422
Speaker 3: that climate advocates and energy wonks have been talking about

481
00:30:42,482 --> 00:30:45,421
Speaker 3: for years as essential to get us off of fossil

482
00:30:45,502 --> 00:30:49,882
Speaker 3: fuels is suddenly took on this geopolitical valence that I

483
00:30:49,922 --> 00:30:52,862
Speaker 3: think many of us in the climate community maybe were

484
00:30:52,902 --> 00:30:55,782
Speaker 3: not super hip to that possibility, you know, in the

485
00:30:55,882 --> 00:31:00,062
Speaker 3: early days of advocating for thorough climate policy and for

486
00:31:00,082 --> 00:31:02,872
Speaker 3: a just energy transition. I think, you know, there was

487
00:31:02,922 --> 00:31:08,792
Speaker 3: almost an assumption that dealing with the climate crisis requires cooperation,

488
00:31:08,872 --> 00:31:13,692
Speaker 3: requires multilateralism, requires also forms of redistribution between the global

489
00:31:13,732 --> 00:31:17,182
Speaker 3: North and South. And that in some way, these technologies

490
00:31:17,242 --> 00:31:21,691
Speaker 3: were peaceful technologies. also because they helped protect people from

491
00:31:21,732 --> 00:31:24,612
Speaker 3: not only the climate crisis, but localized forms of air pollution.

492
00:31:25,192 --> 00:31:29,052
Speaker 3: They could give people around the world access to energy

493
00:31:29,112 --> 00:31:32,052
Speaker 3: that maybe lacked the basics of just an electricity hookup.

494
00:31:32,072 --> 00:31:34,972
Speaker 3: So there are a lot of ways that these technologies

495
00:31:35,292 --> 00:31:38,552
Speaker 3: were seen as, and certainly can be, not only socially

496
00:31:38,872 --> 00:31:42,042
Speaker 3: and environmentally beneficial, but again, part of a broader and

497
00:31:42,062 --> 00:31:45,522
Speaker 3: more collaborative framework of how we address the climate crisis internationally.

498
00:31:46,502 --> 00:31:50,482
Speaker 3: But things really took a quite different turn starting in

499
00:31:51,182 --> 00:31:55,181
Speaker 3: the late 2010s, early 2020s. And so again, this is

500
00:31:55,282 --> 00:31:58,702
Speaker 3: recent history, but sometimes we kind of forget what even

501
00:31:58,742 --> 00:32:01,722
Speaker 3: happened a few years ago or when these dynamics began.

502
00:32:02,202 --> 00:32:06,452
Speaker 3: And so I date it to, again, the late 2010s,

503
00:32:06,472 --> 00:32:12,232
Speaker 3: early 2020s, where policymakers in the global north, as well

504
00:32:12,412 --> 00:32:16,852
Speaker 3: as in China, began to see much more clearly and

505
00:32:16,912 --> 00:32:21,332
Speaker 3: also kind of directly impose a kind of security framing

506
00:32:21,372 --> 00:32:26,142
Speaker 3: over these technologies, right? That these technologies, whoever could develop

507
00:32:26,182 --> 00:32:30,122
Speaker 3: them fastest was going to be a major power in

508
00:32:30,202 --> 00:32:32,542
Speaker 3: the new world order, you know, in a new world

509
00:32:32,662 --> 00:32:36,221
Speaker 3: in which potentially fossil fuels were less important and renewable

510
00:32:36,262 --> 00:32:39,832
Speaker 3: energy is more important. The renewable energy is free for

511
00:32:39,852 --> 00:32:41,992
Speaker 3: the taking. The sun is shining, the wind is blowing.

512
00:32:42,072 --> 00:32:44,832
Speaker 3: So it's not in the energy source or the generating

513
00:32:44,892 --> 00:32:49,132
Speaker 3: source itself. but the technologies that harness that, that distribute it,

514
00:32:49,192 --> 00:32:52,572
Speaker 3: that store it, those are the hardware of a new

515
00:32:52,652 --> 00:32:55,452
Speaker 3: power system and power in both senses of the word,

516
00:32:55,552 --> 00:33:00,072
Speaker 3: energy and political or economic power. And we could get

517
00:33:00,212 --> 00:33:05,472
Speaker 3: into exactly why and when US policymakers first saw it

518
00:33:06,112 --> 00:33:08,911
Speaker 3: as such a threat that China was way advanced in

519
00:33:08,952 --> 00:33:12,512
Speaker 3: developing these technologies, but they did at a certain point, again,

520
00:33:12,532 --> 00:33:16,032
Speaker 3: in recent years, start to feel threatened by China racing

521
00:33:16,092 --> 00:33:21,992
Speaker 3: ahead with green technological development. And I do think it's important,

522
00:33:22,232 --> 00:33:25,542
Speaker 3: and this will kind of maybe tie this whole framing together,

523
00:33:25,982 --> 00:33:28,062
Speaker 3: to understand that there was a real fork in the road.

524
00:33:28,942 --> 00:33:31,812
Speaker 3: It could have been the case that Western powers saw

525
00:33:31,872 --> 00:33:35,212
Speaker 3: how advanced China was, realized that they were not going

526
00:33:35,252 --> 00:33:38,622
Speaker 3: to immediately catch up, realized it's not necessarily a zero

527
00:33:38,642 --> 00:33:43,052
Speaker 3: sum game. China's exporting the stuff around the world. Let's collaborate.

528
00:33:43,212 --> 00:33:46,822
Speaker 3: Let's do joint ventures with Chinese companies. Let's invite Chinese

529
00:33:46,842 --> 00:33:48,941
Speaker 3: scientists and engineers into the West so that we can

530
00:33:48,982 --> 00:33:52,702
Speaker 3: learn from them. But instead, and repurposing a very old

531
00:33:52,762 --> 00:33:56,142
Speaker 3: imperial kind of playbook and a playbook where you just

532
00:33:56,202 --> 00:33:58,142
Speaker 3: assume that the West is supposed to be on top,

533
00:33:59,002 --> 00:34:02,642
Speaker 3: it manifested as a threat. And so instead of a

534
00:34:02,762 --> 00:34:07,962
Speaker 3: cooperative or collaborative approach to China's really rapid green development,

535
00:34:08,932 --> 00:34:12,292
Speaker 3: Policymakers did what I was describing earlier. They sought to

536
00:34:12,372 --> 00:34:16,202
Speaker 3: secure these supply chains, to dominate them, to bring them home,

537
00:34:16,842 --> 00:34:20,361
Speaker 3: to territorialize them within the West, and to do so

538
00:34:20,522 --> 00:34:24,221
Speaker 3: using a suite of economic policies ranging from tariffs to

539
00:34:24,241 --> 00:34:30,602
Speaker 3: industrial policy to different other trade policies, subsidies, loans, etc.,

540
00:34:31,822 --> 00:34:34,742
Speaker 3: And this, you know, maybe just to close out this answer,

541
00:34:34,822 --> 00:34:37,442
Speaker 3: this put the climate movement in a really difficult position.

542
00:34:37,462 --> 00:34:41,072
Speaker 3: And I myself had a lot of difficult, challenging, very interesting,

543
00:34:41,112 --> 00:34:46,392
Speaker 3: but quite challenging conversations with colleagues in the climate movement,

544
00:34:46,491 --> 00:34:49,582
Speaker 3: let's say during the early Biden years, because Biden.

545
00:34:50,942 --> 00:34:54,562
Speaker 3: Framed China as an enemy of the West. I mean,

546
00:34:54,602 --> 00:34:57,492
Speaker 3: he really, you know, he wasn't the first to do so,

547
00:34:57,772 --> 00:35:03,352
Speaker 3: but he reiterated that framing. And he sought dominance over

548
00:35:03,392 --> 00:35:07,712
Speaker 3: these supply chains rather than cooperation with China. From certain

549
00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:12,882
Speaker 3: climate experts and energy experts' perspective, this was a small

550
00:35:12,942 --> 00:35:16,382
Speaker 3: price to pay for rapidly developing these sectors in the U.S.,

551
00:35:16,741 --> 00:35:19,322
Speaker 3: meaning if the only way to get the U.S. government

552
00:35:19,422 --> 00:35:22,741
Speaker 3: interested in developing green tech was to put it in

553
00:35:22,782 --> 00:35:26,142
Speaker 3: a national security framework, that was worth the price, or

554
00:35:26,181 --> 00:35:28,452
Speaker 3: maybe it wasn't even a price. Some people had no

555
00:35:28,491 --> 00:35:30,592
Speaker 3: problem with this. It was just a good way to

556
00:35:30,652 --> 00:35:35,212
Speaker 3: incentivize policy development in this area. I was concerned from

557
00:35:35,232 --> 00:35:38,052
Speaker 3: the get-go because I still hold on to the idea

558
00:35:38,112 --> 00:35:40,511
Speaker 3: that climate is a planetary problem and we are going

559
00:35:40,552 --> 00:35:43,052
Speaker 3: to need cooperation. And if we're at each other's throats

560
00:35:43,112 --> 00:35:45,531
Speaker 3: of who can develop things the fastest, it's not just

561
00:35:45,592 --> 00:35:48,741
Speaker 3: a friendly race. It's tipping over into real geopolitical tension

562
00:35:48,782 --> 00:35:52,282
Speaker 3: and conflict. And that made me concerned about the viability

563
00:35:52,522 --> 00:35:56,122
Speaker 3: of multilateralism and collaboration to deal with the climate crisis.

564
00:35:57,201 --> 00:35:59,951
Speaker 3: Not only that, I think there are real risks to

565
00:35:59,971 --> 00:36:04,092
Speaker 3: the national security framing becoming so dominant over the climate

566
00:36:04,152 --> 00:36:07,091
Speaker 3: and environmental framing for these technologies. And we can talk

567
00:36:07,112 --> 00:36:10,252
Speaker 3: about that more if you want, but I want listeners

568
00:36:10,292 --> 00:36:12,172
Speaker 3: to kind of understand that it was a fork in

569
00:36:12,192 --> 00:36:14,572
Speaker 3: the road, that it did even divide the climate movement

570
00:36:14,592 --> 00:36:17,142
Speaker 3: in certain ways, but we are absolutely in a world

571
00:36:17,241 --> 00:36:21,801
Speaker 3: in which energy technologies and computing technologies are domains of

572
00:36:21,862 --> 00:36:23,102
Speaker 3: geopolitical competition.

573
00:36:23,122 --> 00:36:27,442
Speaker 1: It's really interesting because you described in the book, how,

574
00:36:27,962 --> 00:36:32,982
Speaker 1: as part of this process, the idea of onshoring or

575
00:36:33,302 --> 00:36:36,921
Speaker 1: controlling supply chains started out as a means to an end,

576
00:36:36,942 --> 00:36:40,642
Speaker 1: the end being fighting climate change. But as you were

577
00:36:40,661 --> 00:36:44,281
Speaker 1: just describing, and for a lot of people, it seems like,

578
00:36:44,762 --> 00:36:47,301
Speaker 1: and certainly for a lot of entrenched interests, the end,

579
00:36:47,562 --> 00:36:51,201
Speaker 1: which was originally climate change, has just become dominance. And

580
00:36:51,642 --> 00:36:53,392
Speaker 1: that seems like that gets at one of the risks

581
00:36:53,471 --> 00:36:56,911
Speaker 1: that you're talking about there of It's very possible, and

582
00:36:56,931 --> 00:37:00,491
Speaker 1: maybe we're already there, for a means to an end,

583
00:37:00,872 --> 00:37:03,111
Speaker 1: green dominance, in order to fight climate change to just

584
00:37:03,152 --> 00:37:07,092
Speaker 1: become dominance. And it's very easy, and you could probably

585
00:37:07,292 --> 00:37:10,312
Speaker 1: describe that's what's happening in the second Trump administration, to

586
00:37:10,332 --> 00:37:13,432
Speaker 1: just scrape off the green part and just keep the

587
00:37:13,471 --> 00:37:18,002
Speaker 1: dominance part. Suddenly the end is just, I guess, geopolitical

588
00:37:18,062 --> 00:37:19,441
Speaker 1: power or geoeconomic power.

589
00:37:20,342 --> 00:37:24,681
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And you frame it perfectly from my perspective.

590
00:37:24,982 --> 00:37:28,272
Speaker 3: And maybe just to add a recent example of this

591
00:37:28,312 --> 00:37:30,592
Speaker 3: that I alluded to a little bit earlier with Trump's

592
00:37:30,672 --> 00:37:34,812
Speaker 3: obsession with critical minerals. So critical minerals, just to define

593
00:37:34,852 --> 00:37:40,531
Speaker 3: it for listeners, are minerals that are considered vital to

594
00:37:40,572 --> 00:37:46,292
Speaker 3: both economic functioning and national security. and that have some

595
00:37:46,352 --> 00:37:48,652
Speaker 3: vulnerability in their supply. So you have to check all

596
00:37:48,672 --> 00:37:51,132
Speaker 3: those three boxes to be a critical mineral according to

597
00:37:51,172 --> 00:37:55,562
Speaker 3: the USGS and other agencies domestically and in other countries

598
00:37:55,602 --> 00:37:59,661
Speaker 3: that keep catalogs of critical minerals or strategic minerals. And

599
00:37:59,721 --> 00:38:02,142
Speaker 3: so this is a long designation in the US. Lithium

600
00:38:02,502 --> 00:38:06,241
Speaker 3: was added to this list in the first Trump administration,

601
00:38:06,422 --> 00:38:09,382
Speaker 3: which is interesting unto itself because Trump is known and

602
00:38:09,402 --> 00:38:13,002
Speaker 3: very proudly like an anti-EV guy, you know, minus his

603
00:38:13,342 --> 00:38:17,322
Speaker 3: brief bromance with Elon Musk and showing off the Tesla

604
00:38:17,342 --> 00:38:19,872
Speaker 3: in front of the White House, like minus that odd moment,

605
00:38:20,192 --> 00:38:24,852
Speaker 3: he's been pretty anti the quote, green new scam, electrification,

606
00:38:25,572 --> 00:38:28,352
Speaker 3: renewable energy. He hates wind turbines in particular. I mean,

607
00:38:28,372 --> 00:38:30,862
Speaker 3: we know this whole deal as climate advocates kind of

608
00:38:30,911 --> 00:38:33,881
Speaker 3: watching all of these things being dismantled before our eyes.

609
00:38:34,002 --> 00:38:38,882
Speaker 3: So he's no lover of lithium batteries for electric vehicles,

610
00:38:39,482 --> 00:38:42,622
Speaker 3: but he has been very consistent in both terms in

611
00:38:42,741 --> 00:38:47,451
Speaker 3: office in promoting critical minerals extraction in the U.S., even when, again,

612
00:38:47,491 --> 00:38:50,692
Speaker 3: it seems at odds with what their main use case

613
00:38:50,732 --> 00:38:53,091
Speaker 3: is in many cases, right? The main use of lithium

614
00:38:53,161 --> 00:38:56,202
Speaker 3: right now and for the foreseeable future is electric vehicle

615
00:38:56,241 --> 00:39:00,321
Speaker 3: batteries and not even military hardware or other things that

616
00:39:00,382 --> 00:39:02,471
Speaker 3: Trump is in favor of come close to how much

617
00:39:02,572 --> 00:39:06,492
Speaker 3: EVs play a role in that market. It's odd. However, again,

618
00:39:06,572 --> 00:39:10,392
Speaker 3: he's very pro-mining. He's very pro-extraction. The mining lobby is

619
00:39:10,411 --> 00:39:13,412
Speaker 3: an important part of the Republican coalition. We could explain

620
00:39:13,451 --> 00:39:16,892
Speaker 3: this in sort of political economy terms. But regardless, first

621
00:39:16,931 --> 00:39:21,022
Speaker 3: Trump government, he adds lithium to the critical minerals list

622
00:39:21,221 --> 00:39:26,661
Speaker 3: and initiates certain fast tracking and forms of regulatory deregulation

623
00:39:27,062 --> 00:39:29,522
Speaker 3: in order to move certain projects ahead more quickly. One

624
00:39:29,942 --> 00:39:32,841
Speaker 3: of those projects is Thacker Pass, which is one that

625
00:39:32,882 --> 00:39:36,192
Speaker 3: I visit in Nevada. That was also very supported by

626
00:39:36,212 --> 00:39:39,412
Speaker 3: the Biden administration. It was the Biden government that ensured

627
00:39:39,471 --> 00:39:42,821
Speaker 3: that Thacker Pass had a Department of Energy loan that

628
00:39:42,962 --> 00:39:47,082
Speaker 3: offset three quarters of its capital costs of construction. So

629
00:39:47,122 --> 00:39:50,301
Speaker 3: we have lithium declared as a critical mineral under Trump one.

630
00:39:50,681 --> 00:39:53,642
Speaker 3: We have the fast tracking of the public hearings and

631
00:39:53,661 --> 00:39:56,901
Speaker 3: the regulatory process for Thacker Pass, a huge lithium mine

632
00:39:56,922 --> 00:40:00,982
Speaker 3: in Nevada. Under Biden, that mine gets an enormous loan.

633
00:40:01,362 --> 00:40:04,411
Speaker 3: At the same time, General Motors chips in by saying,

634
00:40:04,431 --> 00:40:07,132
Speaker 3: we're going to also buy some equity stakes in this

635
00:40:07,172 --> 00:40:09,552
Speaker 3: project and have an economic agreement where we get a

636
00:40:09,572 --> 00:40:12,551
Speaker 3: bunch of the lithium for our new electric cars that

637
00:40:12,592 --> 00:40:18,092
Speaker 3: we're producing. Then we're in Trump too. And now literally

638
00:40:18,132 --> 00:40:21,012
Speaker 3: that same mine and the same company, Lithium America, Trump

639
00:40:21,052 --> 00:40:24,322
Speaker 3: has taken equity stakes in this project. So the Department

640
00:40:24,342 --> 00:40:26,842
Speaker 3: of Energy under Trump is now a partial owner of

641
00:40:26,882 --> 00:40:30,191
Speaker 3: this So we see this incredible through line just based

642
00:40:30,252 --> 00:40:33,852
Speaker 3: on one project and one particular mineral where governments that

643
00:40:33,892 --> 00:40:36,411
Speaker 3: are seemingly polarized on a ton of issues, they're from

644
00:40:36,471 --> 00:40:38,922
Speaker 3: opposite sides of the political spectrum. One is a Democrat,

645
00:40:39,142 --> 00:40:42,202
Speaker 3: the other is a Republican, all glom onto the idea

646
00:40:42,221 --> 00:40:45,302
Speaker 3: of critical minerals to lithium in particular, and to state

647
00:40:45,382 --> 00:40:49,181
Speaker 3: intervention to make sure these projects move forward. over and

648
00:40:49,221 --> 00:40:52,832
Speaker 3: against significant community dissent. Because for Thacker Pass, there were

649
00:40:52,872 --> 00:40:55,812
Speaker 3: multiple lawsuits. There were multiple protest camps. There were even

650
00:40:55,852 --> 00:40:58,352
Speaker 3: protests in the capital of Nevada over it. And so

651
00:40:58,372 --> 00:41:02,672
Speaker 3: there was significant local opposition. And despite that, a Democratic

652
00:41:02,712 --> 00:41:05,992
Speaker 3: president was willing to move ahead. A Republican president, less shocking,

653
00:41:06,032 --> 00:41:09,031
Speaker 3: was willing to move ahead. And so I think what

654
00:41:09,052 --> 00:41:13,952
Speaker 3: that draws our attention to is that critical minerals themselves

655
00:41:14,752 --> 00:41:18,952
Speaker 3: are elevated to this really important geopolitical status. It doesn't

656
00:41:19,012 --> 00:41:22,091
Speaker 3: matter if you are framing them for green purposes as

657
00:41:22,161 --> 00:41:25,622
Speaker 3: Biden was, if you're framing them for military or other

658
00:41:25,661 --> 00:41:29,862
Speaker 3: technological purposes, or just the sheer love of resource extraction

659
00:41:30,022 --> 00:41:33,201
Speaker 3: as Trump is, it's almost taken on a life of

660
00:41:33,262 --> 00:41:35,562
Speaker 3: its own. And I call this in other work of mine,

661
00:41:35,582 --> 00:41:39,132
Speaker 3: a critical minerals consensus. That's actually a bipartisan consensus in

662
00:41:39,152 --> 00:41:42,332
Speaker 3: the US that these minerals are important. whether you emphasize

663
00:41:42,352 --> 00:41:46,352
Speaker 3: the national security or you emphasize their role in technologies

664
00:41:46,431 --> 00:41:51,392
Speaker 3: or you emphasize their role in climate action. And that's

665
00:41:51,491 --> 00:41:53,741
Speaker 3: interesting in and of itself, but I think that it

666
00:41:53,892 --> 00:41:59,302
Speaker 3: should concern us that we need to, as climate advocates,

667
00:41:59,342 --> 00:42:02,622
Speaker 3: we need to be very specific about why a certain

668
00:42:02,661 --> 00:42:06,912
Speaker 3: mineral is important, under what terms, under what regulatory terms

669
00:42:06,951 --> 00:42:11,062
Speaker 3: and economic terms we support its extraction, rather than just

670
00:42:11,122 --> 00:42:13,441
Speaker 3: kind of say, oh yes, of course, it's a critical mineral,

671
00:42:13,482 --> 00:42:16,662
Speaker 3: so it must be important. That is not thinking critically,

672
00:42:16,741 --> 00:42:19,611
Speaker 3: no pun intended. That is just going along with what

673
00:42:19,652 --> 00:42:23,352
Speaker 3: has become an elite consensus, not only across the political spectrum,

674
00:42:23,392 --> 00:42:26,471
Speaker 3: but across the public and private sector. And so it's

675
00:42:26,532 --> 00:42:29,002
Speaker 3: less that I'm not trying to say none of these

676
00:42:29,042 --> 00:42:31,201
Speaker 3: minerals are important or they're not quote unquote critical or

677
00:42:31,241 --> 00:42:34,161
Speaker 3: essential at all. That's not my goal. My goal is

678
00:42:34,201 --> 00:42:38,352
Speaker 3: to have us slow down, look more carefully, understand how

679
00:42:38,692 --> 00:42:40,991
Speaker 3: very quickly a mineral that was justified in one way

680
00:42:41,032 --> 00:42:43,951
Speaker 3: can be justified in another way. And that we need

681
00:42:43,971 --> 00:42:46,881
Speaker 3: to have our own ideas of what minerals are important,

682
00:42:47,122 --> 00:42:50,102
Speaker 3: how much volume of them we actually need to serve

683
00:42:50,181 --> 00:42:53,801
Speaker 3: social or planetary needs, and what form of governance we

684
00:42:53,822 --> 00:42:58,172
Speaker 3: think is adequate to the extremely environmentally impactful nature of

685
00:42:58,192 --> 00:42:58,952
Speaker 3: the mining industry.

686
00:43:19,411 --> 00:43:22,372
Speaker 1: Something that you chart in the book is the fight,

687
00:43:22,772 --> 00:43:27,551
Speaker 1: I guess, of some companies within the mining sector and

688
00:43:27,612 --> 00:43:33,092
Speaker 1: specifically involved in mining lithium to resist the commodification of lithium.

689
00:43:33,652 --> 00:43:36,952
Speaker 1: You show how it's pretty clearly shifting from something that

690
00:43:37,701 --> 00:43:39,982
Speaker 1: you know, a different type of lithium or a different

691
00:43:40,082 --> 00:43:44,012
Speaker 1: company or a different location can sort of distinguish itself

692
00:43:44,052 --> 00:43:46,942
Speaker 1: from its competitors. shifting from that into more of a

693
00:43:46,982 --> 00:43:50,162
Speaker 1: commodity that can be bought and sold and exchanged and

694
00:43:50,201 --> 00:43:52,672
Speaker 1: traded and speculated against and all of that stuff. And

695
00:43:53,491 --> 00:43:58,572
Speaker 1: one of the ways that they have resisted that shift

696
00:43:58,612 --> 00:44:01,982
Speaker 1: into a commodity is to attach a modifier to it.

697
00:44:02,572 --> 00:44:05,472
Speaker 1: And this clearly worked, you know, during the Biden years

698
00:44:05,532 --> 00:44:09,542
Speaker 1: as well, of just adding green or sustainable or ethical,

699
00:44:09,681 --> 00:44:11,701
Speaker 1: some other modifier in front of it to make their,

700
00:44:11,982 --> 00:44:15,342
Speaker 1: you know, a certain... sourcing or a certain a certain

701
00:44:15,462 --> 00:44:20,602
Speaker 1: company's lithium stand out from a competitor's and in the

702
00:44:20,642 --> 00:44:23,222
Speaker 1: way you describe in the book is that the sustainability

703
00:44:23,282 --> 00:44:27,152
Speaker 1: itself the idea of it becomes the commodity and i'm

704
00:44:27,172 --> 00:44:29,252
Speaker 1: just wondering if you can talk about that a little

705
00:44:29,272 --> 00:44:31,951
Speaker 1: bit just how the kind of this touches on some

706
00:44:32,332 --> 00:44:34,392
Speaker 1: of what we were talking about before with narratives and

707
00:44:34,431 --> 00:44:39,002
Speaker 1: stories and ideas but the idea of lithium and green

708
00:44:39,042 --> 00:44:41,321
Speaker 1: lithium or green mining as you talk about in the

709
00:44:41,342 --> 00:44:44,462
Speaker 1: book kind of becomes a again, as we were talking

710
00:44:44,482 --> 00:44:46,002
Speaker 1: about before, an end unto itself.

711
00:44:46,982 --> 00:44:51,242
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mentioned earlier in passing that there are different

712
00:44:51,282 --> 00:44:54,902
Speaker 3: types of conflicts over resource extraction, global north, global south,

713
00:44:55,002 --> 00:44:58,432
Speaker 3: great powers, community versus corporations. And the one that I

714
00:44:58,491 --> 00:45:01,432
Speaker 3: mentioned at the end was corporations that might have different

715
00:45:01,471 --> 00:45:04,352
Speaker 3: interests from one another. And I planted that seed intentionally,

716
00:45:04,411 --> 00:45:06,111
Speaker 3: and you kind of picked up on it in a way,

717
00:45:06,292 --> 00:45:11,142
Speaker 3: which is that at least in academia, And to an extent,

718
00:45:11,221 --> 00:45:14,642
Speaker 3: I think in just the broader world of climate commentary

719
00:45:14,721 --> 00:45:19,502
Speaker 3: and climate activism, we're used to seeing the extractive sectors,

720
00:45:19,582 --> 00:45:22,941
Speaker 3: whether it's fossil fuels or whether it's mining, as very

721
00:45:22,982 --> 00:45:26,022
Speaker 3: aligned with the finance sector, to the point where those

722
00:45:26,062 --> 00:45:29,582
Speaker 3: two sectors have become very imbricated in one another. You

723
00:45:29,622 --> 00:45:34,491
Speaker 3: need a lot of financial capital to undertake extractive projects,

724
00:45:35,212 --> 00:45:40,022
Speaker 3: and extractive projects themselves are sites of financial speculation and

725
00:45:40,082 --> 00:45:43,722
Speaker 3: commodity trading, as you just laid out. But those facts,

726
00:45:43,762 --> 00:45:46,102
Speaker 3: which are all true, should not lead us to believe

727
00:45:46,142 --> 00:45:51,432
Speaker 3: it's always such an easy relationship. Extraction, resource extraction, and

728
00:45:51,991 --> 00:45:55,292
Speaker 3: finance in the form of private finance, Wall Street, the

729
00:45:55,332 --> 00:45:59,252
Speaker 3: city in London, that type of world, don't work on

730
00:45:59,292 --> 00:46:05,112
Speaker 3: exactly the same logic. Resource extraction is is a long-term,

731
00:46:05,322 --> 00:46:10,681
Speaker 3: very physical process in a particular place that oftentimes can

732
00:46:10,741 --> 00:46:15,642
Speaker 3: take years, many years, to actually go from discovering the

733
00:46:15,741 --> 00:46:19,201
Speaker 3: mineral underground to building the mine, to getting it permitted,

734
00:46:19,322 --> 00:46:24,142
Speaker 3: to getting it operational, and to then fully recuperating your

735
00:46:24,161 --> 00:46:29,382
Speaker 3: investment over many years. A mining contract or concession is

736
00:46:29,382 --> 00:46:33,611
Speaker 3: 25 years, 40 years. They're really long timeframes. And that's

737
00:46:33,832 --> 00:46:36,522
Speaker 3: in part because it does take a moment to recoup

738
00:46:36,942 --> 00:46:42,082
Speaker 3: the tremendous investment and sunk costs and fixed costs that

739
00:46:42,142 --> 00:46:46,661
Speaker 3: happen earlier in a mine's development. And a lot of

740
00:46:46,701 --> 00:46:50,592
Speaker 3: that is really an anathema to the modern finance industry,

741
00:46:50,692 --> 00:46:55,991
Speaker 3: which wants very quick returns, wants very reliable returns, does

742
00:46:56,032 --> 00:47:01,662
Speaker 3: not like risk, and would prefer to trade and hedge

743
00:47:01,762 --> 00:47:05,732
Speaker 3: in ways that generate very rapid and very reliable dividends.

744
00:47:06,312 --> 00:47:09,412
Speaker 3: You know, as I said, extraction can take a long time.

745
00:47:09,672 --> 00:47:12,202
Speaker 3: And during all those years, many things can go wrong.

746
00:47:12,322 --> 00:47:14,361
Speaker 3: There can be protests, there can be strikes, there can

747
00:47:14,382 --> 00:47:19,022
Speaker 3: be wars, there can be substitutions, like a new technology

748
00:47:19,082 --> 00:47:21,682
Speaker 3: requires a new type of mineral. And so a mineral

749
00:47:21,721 --> 00:47:28,572
Speaker 3: market goes bust. And it's oftentimes hard for mining companies

750
00:47:28,681 --> 00:47:31,752
Speaker 3: to attract the finance that they need for these really

751
00:47:31,812 --> 00:47:35,611
Speaker 3: capital intensive operations. And that shouldn't like make us feel

752
00:47:35,672 --> 00:47:38,172
Speaker 3: bad for mining companies. That's not really my point, but

753
00:47:38,192 --> 00:47:41,551
Speaker 3: it's just to introduce a little bit of specificity that

754
00:47:41,572 --> 00:47:44,181
Speaker 3: the finance sector and the extractive sector, it takes some

755
00:47:44,262 --> 00:47:47,122
Speaker 3: work to kind of align their interests and have them

756
00:47:47,161 --> 00:47:50,902
Speaker 3: work together in a way that is profitable for extractive capitalism.

757
00:47:52,282 --> 00:47:55,082
Speaker 3: And what we've seen in the lithium sector, and there's

758
00:47:55,122 --> 00:47:58,931
Speaker 3: other examples of this in other raw material and nature-based sectors,

759
00:47:59,152 --> 00:48:02,712
Speaker 3: is that the sector is at kind of an early

760
00:48:02,752 --> 00:48:07,312
Speaker 3: stage of financialization. And instead of being fully financialized, meaning

761
00:48:07,372 --> 00:48:11,562
Speaker 3: like major futures markets, lots of betting and hedging and speculation,

762
00:48:11,622 --> 00:48:15,122
Speaker 3: complex financial instruments like you have in the oil market

763
00:48:15,562 --> 00:48:18,102
Speaker 3: or even in the copper market, You have a kind

764
00:48:18,142 --> 00:48:22,332
Speaker 3: of more almost old fashioned approach where there are oftentimes

765
00:48:22,411 --> 00:48:25,332
Speaker 3: long-term contracts between a buyer and a seller that may

766
00:48:25,392 --> 00:48:29,591
Speaker 3: not really be routed through these more financialized markets and

767
00:48:29,752 --> 00:48:33,531
Speaker 3: kind of vehicles of finance. What I witnessed at, you know,

768
00:48:33,552 --> 00:48:35,112
Speaker 3: this is the part of the book that you're recounting.

769
00:48:35,132 --> 00:48:38,881
Speaker 3: What I witnessed, let's say, honestly, at this point, five

770
00:48:38,922 --> 00:48:41,422
Speaker 3: or six years ago. So it was at an even

771
00:48:41,542 --> 00:48:44,862
Speaker 3: earlier stage of this process that I'm detailing. I happened

772
00:48:44,882 --> 00:48:48,432
Speaker 3: to go to this lithium convention. in Santiago, Chile, where

773
00:48:48,451 --> 00:48:50,662
Speaker 3: I was doing field work and all the major lithium

774
00:48:50,701 --> 00:48:53,261
Speaker 3: companies were there. And all of these companies are still

775
00:48:53,282 --> 00:48:55,341
Speaker 3: the major lithium companies. There are some new ones, but

776
00:48:55,382 --> 00:49:00,712
Speaker 3: these are still really powerful lithium companies. Albemarle, SQM, Tianqi, Gongfeng, etc.,

777
00:49:01,832 --> 00:49:05,971
Speaker 3: And all of them in that moment said, we want

778
00:49:05,991 --> 00:49:08,342
Speaker 3: to continue doing it the old fashioned way, so to speak.

779
00:49:08,392 --> 00:49:11,361
Speaker 3: We want to sell our lithium to this or that

780
00:49:11,402 --> 00:49:16,221
Speaker 3: downstream buyer. We're not interested in more elaborate pricing mechanisms

781
00:49:16,282 --> 00:49:21,442
Speaker 3: or hedging mechanisms or forms of speculation. And what's interesting

782
00:49:21,502 --> 00:49:24,892
Speaker 3: is that they clearly viewed the possibility of a more

783
00:49:24,971 --> 00:49:28,832
Speaker 3: financialized sector where you would have lots of more actors

784
00:49:28,872 --> 00:49:32,602
Speaker 3: in the room, investment bankers, hedge funders, funds, commodity traders,

785
00:49:33,161 --> 00:49:35,761
Speaker 3: as a way that they might lose power over a

786
00:49:35,822 --> 00:49:41,552
Speaker 3: sector that was relatively small at that point and relatively oligopolistic,

787
00:49:41,752 --> 00:49:45,392
Speaker 3: really controlled by a few firms. And they just wanted

788
00:49:45,411 --> 00:49:47,792
Speaker 3: to hold on to their position as any incumbent firm

789
00:49:47,832 --> 00:49:50,842
Speaker 3: does in a market that has a lot of concentration

790
00:49:51,241 --> 00:49:55,711
Speaker 3: of corporate investment. But they did not exactly get their way.

791
00:49:55,892 --> 00:49:58,471
Speaker 3: And what we see is a really interesting process that

792
00:49:58,512 --> 00:50:00,812
Speaker 3: we can observe in real time. Like we would have

793
00:50:00,852 --> 00:50:03,372
Speaker 3: to go back decades to see this in the oil market,

794
00:50:03,392 --> 00:50:06,242
Speaker 3: because now it's history. The oil market is very financialized

795
00:50:06,282 --> 00:50:08,801
Speaker 3: at this point. But we can witness at this moment

796
00:50:08,862 --> 00:50:12,982
Speaker 3: the process of lithium becoming a quote unquote commodity. And

797
00:50:13,161 --> 00:50:17,242
Speaker 3: going back to that corporate convention, one of the investment

798
00:50:17,262 --> 00:50:19,422
Speaker 3: bankers that was speaking on the stage, who was very

799
00:50:19,442 --> 00:50:24,802
Speaker 3: a proponent of it becoming a commodity, defined a commodity

800
00:50:24,882 --> 00:50:28,422
Speaker 3: for the audience. He said, a commodity is anything that

801
00:50:28,462 --> 00:50:31,942
Speaker 3: you don't care where it came from. All oil of

802
00:50:31,982 --> 00:50:34,322
Speaker 3: a certain grade and type is the same. It doesn't

803
00:50:34,342 --> 00:50:38,221
Speaker 3: matter where. Any bale of cotton is the same. A

804
00:50:38,262 --> 00:50:40,682
Speaker 3: ton of copper, wherever it comes from, is the same.

805
00:50:40,802 --> 00:50:46,292
Speaker 3: And that commensurability and uniformity and homogeneity, which itself is

806
00:50:46,312 --> 00:50:51,392
Speaker 3: the outcome of all sorts of technical standards and engineering

807
00:50:51,431 --> 00:50:54,531
Speaker 3: processes and chemical processes to make these things the quote

808
00:50:54,552 --> 00:50:57,812
Speaker 3: unquote same, the result of that is that you can

809
00:50:57,852 --> 00:51:00,531
Speaker 3: have global commodities markets with a single price that on

810
00:51:00,612 --> 00:51:02,551
Speaker 3: any given day we could look up what is the

811
00:51:02,592 --> 00:51:04,732
Speaker 3: price of lithium. You can't quite do that yet. There

812
00:51:04,772 --> 00:51:08,092
Speaker 3: is a spot market in China, but most of lithium

813
00:51:08,132 --> 00:51:10,951
Speaker 3: is traded through these long-term offtake contracts that are not

814
00:51:10,991 --> 00:51:13,412
Speaker 3: transparent to the public. So even saying what the price

815
00:51:13,451 --> 00:51:16,301
Speaker 3: of lithium is is kind of a fool's errand where

816
00:51:16,342 --> 00:51:17,962
Speaker 3: with the price of oil, like we can look at

817
00:51:17,982 --> 00:51:20,301
Speaker 3: the price, not only of oil, but of different, again,

818
00:51:20,342 --> 00:51:24,432
Speaker 3: grades and types of oil. And so what this person

819
00:51:24,471 --> 00:51:27,772
Speaker 3: said on stage is that from an investor perspective, from

820
00:51:27,812 --> 00:51:30,632
Speaker 3: a finance perspective, what we want is all lithium to

821
00:51:30,672 --> 00:51:33,272
Speaker 3: be the same. The lithium companies were saying, no, we

822
00:51:33,312 --> 00:51:35,992
Speaker 3: have our special product. They also don't like the idea

823
00:51:36,052 --> 00:51:38,352
Speaker 3: that lithium is a raw material. They wanna present it

824
00:51:38,692 --> 00:51:42,862
Speaker 3: as a chemical, I think to really disassociate lithium chemicals

825
00:51:42,962 --> 00:51:45,802
Speaker 3: from their extractive origins, right? So there's almost like a

826
00:51:45,822 --> 00:51:48,661
Speaker 3: little bit of a marketing game going on there as well.

827
00:51:49,062 --> 00:51:51,281
Speaker 3: But just to kind of cut to the chase and

828
00:51:51,322 --> 00:51:54,801
Speaker 3: get to the end of where your question landed, what

829
00:51:54,882 --> 00:51:59,821
Speaker 3: I saw as lithium companies and financial investors were kind

830
00:51:59,842 --> 00:52:03,402
Speaker 3: of strategizing and grappling with this moment of lithium slowly

831
00:52:03,442 --> 00:52:09,712
Speaker 3: becoming more commoditized, more homogenous, more tradable, having clearer pricing benchmarks,

832
00:52:10,582 --> 00:52:14,022
Speaker 3: was that lithium companies needed a new way to stand

833
00:52:14,161 --> 00:52:17,681
Speaker 3: out beyond just saying, oh, we have our specialty chemical

834
00:52:17,721 --> 00:52:19,792
Speaker 3: or we have our specialty formula or we sell to

835
00:52:19,852 --> 00:52:22,411
Speaker 3: this downstream company or that. And one of the key

836
00:52:22,431 --> 00:52:27,072
Speaker 3: ways to stand out was to produce, quote, sustainable lithium.

837
00:52:27,991 --> 00:52:33,071
Speaker 3: The irony is that sustainability and greenness or even ethical lithium, right,

838
00:52:33,112 --> 00:52:37,151
Speaker 3: responsible lithium, all of these different adjectives, itself now has

839
00:52:37,212 --> 00:52:40,172
Speaker 3: become a financial product, as you say, to the point

840
00:52:40,252 --> 00:52:44,451
Speaker 3: that in the commodity trading houses that exist, the Chicago

841
00:52:44,852 --> 00:52:47,852
Speaker 3: Metals Exchange and the London Metals Exchange, where there is

842
00:52:47,911 --> 00:52:53,122
Speaker 3: some early stage trading of lithium, you have a price

843
00:52:53,201 --> 00:52:57,022
Speaker 3: premium for green. You have a separate trading floor for

844
00:52:57,062 --> 00:53:00,261
Speaker 3: quote unquote green lithium. And so this is lithium that's

845
00:53:00,302 --> 00:53:05,612
Speaker 3: both been thoroughly financialized, yet it's still segmented out by

846
00:53:05,752 --> 00:53:07,872
Speaker 3: whether it's green or sustainable. And then, of course, you

847
00:53:07,892 --> 00:53:10,372
Speaker 3: have to look underneath the hood. How does a company

848
00:53:10,431 --> 00:53:13,622
Speaker 3: get to label its lithium as green or sustainable? And

849
00:53:13,661 --> 00:53:16,602
Speaker 3: there's a whole process there that we could get into

850
00:53:16,982 --> 00:53:20,321
Speaker 3: that especially banking institutions have kind of come up with

851
00:53:20,442 --> 00:53:23,781
Speaker 3: in an ESG framework to figure out what to label what.

852
00:53:23,862 --> 00:53:25,542
Speaker 3: But I'll tell you that it does not have to

853
00:53:25,602 --> 00:53:27,542
Speaker 3: do with the fact that there is no environmental harm

854
00:53:27,582 --> 00:53:28,381
Speaker 3: or no social harm.

855
00:53:29,142 --> 00:53:33,892
Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time in the book reporting

856
00:53:34,072 --> 00:53:38,512
Speaker 1: on communities in the United States, in Chile, and elsewhere

857
00:53:39,592 --> 00:53:43,752
Speaker 1: that are trying to engage, and in some cases, trying

858
00:53:43,792 --> 00:53:49,602
Speaker 1: to resist the imposition of these extractive industries? In a

859
00:53:49,681 --> 00:53:52,202
Speaker 1: lot of cases, and I think the vast majority of cases,

860
00:53:52,482 --> 00:53:57,042
Speaker 1: these are Indigenous lands or Indigenous communities nearby who are

861
00:53:57,062 --> 00:54:01,312
Speaker 1: most affected by this. Are there any commonalities or tactics

862
00:54:01,491 --> 00:54:05,802
Speaker 1: or strategies that have that you've observed among these communities,

863
00:54:05,862 --> 00:54:09,841
Speaker 1: people who are resisting extractive capitalism that have made them successful?

864
00:54:10,802 --> 00:54:14,281
Speaker 3: Yes, and I love that question because there's a lot

865
00:54:14,322 --> 00:54:20,202
Speaker 3: of social scientific literature on anti-extractive protest, what causes it

866
00:54:20,512 --> 00:54:22,772
Speaker 3: and what the consequences of it are in terms of

867
00:54:22,832 --> 00:54:27,411
Speaker 3: its success or different outcomes. And this is not always

868
00:54:27,451 --> 00:54:30,632
Speaker 3: the case, but I did actually find that my experiences

869
00:54:30,712 --> 00:54:34,201
Speaker 3: on the ground aligned with some of the more general findings.

870
00:54:34,282 --> 00:54:36,922
Speaker 3: So I can both impart a little bit anecdotally, but

871
00:54:37,002 --> 00:54:39,782
Speaker 3: also kind of say that this is not just based

872
00:54:39,862 --> 00:54:42,131
Speaker 3: on this or that place I visited. It's a more

873
00:54:42,192 --> 00:54:45,372
Speaker 3: general pattern. And I think that there are kind of

874
00:54:45,512 --> 00:54:49,892
Speaker 3: two ways to break down this question a little bit.

875
00:54:50,192 --> 00:54:52,642
Speaker 3: One is what causes really.

876
00:54:54,072 --> 00:54:58,252
Speaker 3: Militant and well-organized protests in the first place, like why

877
00:54:58,272 --> 00:55:01,602
Speaker 3: communities go down the path of protest. And the other

878
00:55:01,701 --> 00:55:05,902
Speaker 3: is what determines how successful they are in achieving their goals.

879
00:55:06,962 --> 00:55:10,102
Speaker 3: And the two are actually related, but it's worth disambiguating

880
00:55:10,142 --> 00:55:13,661
Speaker 3: them a little bit. And maybe to stay, to kind

881
00:55:13,701 --> 00:55:18,752
Speaker 3: of frame this all, It's important to know that not

882
00:55:18,872 --> 00:55:23,372
Speaker 3: every community resists mining. In a book like mine and

883
00:55:23,392 --> 00:55:25,872
Speaker 3: a lot of the reporting on this topic, we get

884
00:55:25,931 --> 00:55:29,232
Speaker 3: introduced to communities that are concerned, that are discontent, that

885
00:55:29,272 --> 00:55:33,312
Speaker 3: maybe are about to protest or are protesting because that's newsworthy.

886
00:55:33,352 --> 00:55:35,172
Speaker 3: That's where the action is. That's where we can kind

887
00:55:35,212 --> 00:55:38,432
Speaker 3: of dramatize the pros and cons of mining and the

888
00:55:38,451 --> 00:55:41,401
Speaker 3: different viewpoints on it. That does not at all mean

889
00:55:41,462 --> 00:55:45,982
Speaker 3: that every community resists mining. And also that doesn't mean

890
00:55:46,022 --> 00:55:48,241
Speaker 3: that communities that don't resist it are happy with it.

891
00:55:48,462 --> 00:55:51,302
Speaker 3: It's just that certain factors tend to need to combine

892
00:55:51,322 --> 00:55:56,361
Speaker 3: to get communities to take the risk of resistance, which

893
00:55:56,422 --> 00:55:59,962
Speaker 3: is actually risky in a variety of ways. So what

894
00:55:59,982 --> 00:56:03,942
Speaker 3: the general literature shows and was more than confirmed in

895
00:56:03,982 --> 00:56:07,971
Speaker 3: the cases that I delved into is that there needs

896
00:56:08,032 --> 00:56:13,832
Speaker 3: to be a combination of environmental and social harm that

897
00:56:13,852 --> 00:56:18,172
Speaker 3: is predicted to happen or clearly going to happen, or

898
00:56:18,192 --> 00:56:20,272
Speaker 3: there's a concern about it happening as a result of

899
00:56:20,292 --> 00:56:24,512
Speaker 3: the project. So maybe the project would majorly deplete local

900
00:56:24,572 --> 00:56:28,661
Speaker 3: water supplies or reduce local biodiversity, or maybe it's a

901
00:56:28,681 --> 00:56:31,902
Speaker 3: more social issue where the project would be cited or

902
00:56:32,512 --> 00:56:36,192
Speaker 3: in a landscape that is considered ceremonial or sacred, or

903
00:56:36,252 --> 00:56:38,931
Speaker 3: that overlaps with another land use. So maybe there's a

904
00:56:38,971 --> 00:56:42,002
Speaker 3: more economic concern, like, oh, here we are in agricultural community,

905
00:56:42,022 --> 00:56:43,681
Speaker 3: and if this mine is built, I don't think we're

906
00:56:43,701 --> 00:56:45,002
Speaker 3: going to have a farm on top of the mine.

907
00:56:45,701 --> 00:56:50,122
Speaker 3: So these are different grievances or concerns that communities might have.

908
00:56:50,582 --> 00:56:53,801
Speaker 3: But in and of themselves, that tends to not quite

909
00:56:53,892 --> 00:56:57,781
Speaker 3: get us to the threshold of really active resistance. We

910
00:56:57,802 --> 00:57:00,361
Speaker 3: can even know in our own lives that we might

911
00:57:00,382 --> 00:57:03,221
Speaker 3: live in a neighborhood, there might be a development happening

912
00:57:03,302 --> 00:57:06,011
Speaker 3: or a new store being built or a factory. Maybe

913
00:57:06,032 --> 00:57:08,592
Speaker 3: we're concerned about something like there's gonna be more pollution

914
00:57:08,612 --> 00:57:11,111
Speaker 3: or more traffic. That doesn't mean we automatically, we might

915
00:57:11,152 --> 00:57:12,892
Speaker 3: gripe about it, we might complain about it. That doesn't

916
00:57:12,931 --> 00:57:15,882
Speaker 3: mean we organize collective action, put our bodies on the

917
00:57:15,931 --> 00:57:18,282
Speaker 3: line in front of the bulldozer and take tremendous risks

918
00:57:18,362 --> 00:57:21,282
Speaker 3: to slow it down. So I think that there's a

919
00:57:21,322 --> 00:57:24,652
Speaker 3: more general lesson here that could even relate to protests

920
00:57:24,672 --> 00:57:27,472
Speaker 3: more broadly, but certainly is the case with anti-extractive protests,

921
00:57:27,612 --> 00:57:30,782
Speaker 3: where it's the combination of a concern about a specific harm,

922
00:57:31,202 --> 00:57:34,472
Speaker 3: or oftentimes more than one harm, and a feeling of

923
00:57:34,512 --> 00:57:39,502
Speaker 3: being excluded from decision-making. And that is a very combustible combination.

924
00:57:39,642 --> 00:57:41,862
Speaker 3: If you think your watershed is going to be depleted

925
00:57:42,302 --> 00:57:45,472
Speaker 3: and you show up to a hearing that is organized

926
00:57:45,512 --> 00:57:48,232
Speaker 3: by the local government or the company itself, and you

927
00:57:48,292 --> 00:57:50,572
Speaker 3: try to raise your hand and bring that concern and

928
00:57:50,592 --> 00:57:52,822
Speaker 3: you are shut down and you're told that you're stupid

929
00:57:52,882 --> 00:57:56,482
Speaker 3: because you don't understand how watersheds work, Or the way

930
00:57:56,522 --> 00:57:59,102
Speaker 3: that the information is presented is not in your native

931
00:57:59,122 --> 00:58:02,082
Speaker 3: language because you're an indigenous person and it's in Spanish

932
00:58:02,142 --> 00:58:05,342
Speaker 3: rather than your indigenous language. Or you start to raise

933
00:58:05,422 --> 00:58:08,242
Speaker 3: a little bit of concern. Maybe you do some things

934
00:58:08,262 --> 00:58:10,382
Speaker 3: that look like protests and you are repressed or you

935
00:58:10,422 --> 00:58:13,982
Speaker 3: get a death threat. So it's the combination of exclusion

936
00:58:14,142 --> 00:58:18,512
Speaker 3: or repression or feeling threatened. shut out from the policy process,

937
00:58:18,792 --> 00:58:22,522
Speaker 3: and there being very high stakes harms involved that tends

938
00:58:22,602 --> 00:58:27,772
Speaker 3: to activate communities into more serious and risky levels of

939
00:58:27,812 --> 00:58:31,202
Speaker 3: collective action. And when I say risk, I don't just

940
00:58:31,302 --> 00:58:33,532
Speaker 3: mean the fact that if you put your body in

941
00:58:33,572 --> 00:58:35,672
Speaker 3: front of a bulldozer, you don't know exactly what's going

942
00:58:35,692 --> 00:58:38,212
Speaker 3: to happen and the guy can keep driving or not. Right.

943
00:58:38,232 --> 00:58:40,052
Speaker 3: And you hope he doesn't. But it's not it's not

944
00:58:40,112 --> 00:58:44,802
Speaker 3: just the risk from the literal activity of protest itself,

945
00:58:45,362 --> 00:58:48,082
Speaker 3: but it's also the fact that the mining industry is

946
00:58:48,282 --> 00:58:54,142
Speaker 3: rightfully notorious for human rights violations and allegations. including outright

947
00:58:54,242 --> 00:58:58,502
Speaker 3: killing of land defenders and environmental defenders. In fact, the

948
00:58:58,542 --> 00:59:01,802
Speaker 3: mining industry or attractive industries writ large are number one

949
00:59:02,362 --> 00:59:05,572
Speaker 3: over and above agribusiness, forestry, a whole host of other

950
00:59:05,652 --> 00:59:08,912
Speaker 3: nasty industries that also have bad reputations. It's number one

951
00:59:08,992 --> 00:59:11,812
Speaker 3: for the number of people that die. And then we

952
00:59:11,832 --> 00:59:14,112
Speaker 3: could go from there, injury, death threat, other forms of

953
00:59:14,152 --> 00:59:17,832
Speaker 3: intimidation that are short of premature death. And so this

954
00:59:17,892 --> 00:59:20,972
Speaker 3: is a real risk. And especially in Latin America and Africa,

955
00:59:21,852 --> 00:59:24,592
Speaker 3: and Indonesia and a lot of the hotspots of mining,

956
00:59:24,892 --> 00:59:28,552
Speaker 3: these risks are particularly elevated. So community needs to like,

957
00:59:29,062 --> 00:59:31,582
Speaker 3: have a sense of shared purpose, have a sense that

958
00:59:31,622 --> 00:59:34,242
Speaker 3: they have plans for how they're going to manage that risk,

959
00:59:34,762 --> 00:59:38,892
Speaker 3: feel okay with the physical threats that are going to

960
00:59:38,932 --> 00:59:42,952
Speaker 3: be lobbed against them, and maintain a sense of steadfastness

961
00:59:43,092 --> 00:59:47,302
Speaker 3: in the face of very sophisticated divide and conquer strategies

962
00:59:47,342 --> 00:59:50,102
Speaker 3: that the mining industry now uses to try to undermine

963
00:59:50,142 --> 00:59:53,922
Speaker 3: this process of collective action and kind of popular unity,

964
00:59:54,022 --> 00:59:56,882
Speaker 3: we might say. With all that in mind, you can

965
00:59:56,922 --> 01:00:00,162
Speaker 3: already maybe tell what would make for a more successful protest, right?

966
01:00:00,182 --> 01:00:02,462
Speaker 3: I've kind of already laid it out. Like, if you

967
01:00:02,502 --> 01:00:06,332
Speaker 3: do have a level of community organization, if you do

968
01:00:06,412 --> 01:00:09,732
Speaker 3: have that shared social fabric and that sense of we

969
01:00:09,772 --> 01:00:11,532
Speaker 3: know each other, we're going to meet one another, we're

970
01:00:11,552 --> 01:00:13,671
Speaker 3: going to set up these meetings, we have a shared

971
01:00:13,712 --> 01:00:16,952
Speaker 3: social network, right? If it's a very atomized or alienated community,

972
01:00:16,992 --> 01:00:20,232
Speaker 3: this can be harder. If it's a community with pre-existing communities,

973
01:00:20,452 --> 01:00:24,282
Speaker 3: kind of social contact and shared activities and shared common

974
01:00:24,302 --> 01:00:26,782
Speaker 3: spaces that they tend to use together on the land

975
01:00:26,822 --> 01:00:30,582
Speaker 3: that's going to be affected, we see more leverage for

976
01:00:30,622 --> 01:00:34,162
Speaker 3: that community. We also see that the earlier in the

977
01:00:34,222 --> 01:00:39,512
Speaker 3: process the community gets activated, agitated, and starts resisting, the

978
01:00:39,552 --> 01:00:41,972
Speaker 3: more successful or the more likely they are to at

979
01:00:42,012 --> 01:00:44,832
Speaker 3: least win some demands. So if right away from that

980
01:00:44,912 --> 01:00:49,412
Speaker 3: first public hearing during early exploration, your community gets organized,

981
01:00:49,452 --> 01:00:53,142
Speaker 3: that's a very good sign about the possibility that you

982
01:00:53,182 --> 01:00:56,862
Speaker 3: can actually shape decision-making, negotiation, even prevent the mine if

983
01:00:56,882 --> 01:01:01,082
Speaker 3: that's your goal. And in fact, just to maybe close

984
01:01:01,162 --> 01:01:04,182
Speaker 3: out with this interesting fact, Latin America is a place

985
01:01:04,222 --> 01:01:06,042
Speaker 3: where at this point, we have a lot of what

986
01:01:06,062 --> 01:01:09,662
Speaker 3: we can call stranded assets, whether officially declared or not,

987
01:01:10,062 --> 01:01:14,622
Speaker 3: mining projects that have not moved past the advanced exploration stage,

988
01:01:15,002 --> 01:01:18,042
Speaker 3: Because there was such vociferous resistance to them that it

989
01:01:18,122 --> 01:01:22,272
Speaker 3: scared off investors. And once the mining company loses the financiers,

990
01:01:22,292 --> 01:01:24,552
Speaker 3: because remember, that takes a lot to align, as we

991
01:01:24,572 --> 01:01:28,532
Speaker 3: just discussed, the mining company really can't move forward. And

992
01:01:28,552 --> 01:01:32,032
Speaker 3: that will just be shelled until another maybe less risk

993
01:01:32,132 --> 01:01:35,042
Speaker 3: adverse mining company in the future arrives. takes it on.

994
01:01:35,422 --> 01:01:37,822
Speaker 3: But there can be real victories, whether it's stopping the

995
01:01:37,862 --> 01:01:40,562
Speaker 3: mine or stalling it just to get better governance and

996
01:01:40,582 --> 01:01:46,002
Speaker 3: better regulation, whether it's winning economic benefits, resources for local

997
01:01:46,062 --> 01:01:50,842
Speaker 3: environmental monitoring, better labor, dignified work out of the mine,

998
01:01:50,932 --> 01:01:53,392
Speaker 3: whatever the community's goals are, which may be to stop

999
01:01:53,772 --> 01:01:56,752
Speaker 3: it or may just be to improve it. The more organized,

1000
01:01:56,792 --> 01:01:59,151
Speaker 3: the more unified, and at an earlier stage, the more

1001
01:01:59,232 --> 01:02:01,252
Speaker 3: successful they tend to be. And they really can be

1002
01:02:01,292 --> 01:02:04,632
Speaker 3: successful despite the kind of David and Goliath power relations.

1003
01:02:05,572 --> 01:02:07,732
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you noted there, there are lots of

1004
01:02:07,772 --> 01:02:11,162
Speaker 1: opportunities for alliance and also lots of points of leverage

1005
01:02:11,592 --> 01:02:14,802
Speaker 1: over the industry that I think are good for folks

1006
01:02:14,842 --> 01:02:18,702
Speaker 1: to keep in mind because it is not an insurmountable opponent. No.

1007
01:02:19,202 --> 01:02:22,002
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for this conversation, Thea, and congratulations on

1008
01:02:22,022 --> 01:02:22,262
Speaker 1: the book.

1009
01:02:23,422 --> 01:02:23,942
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Adam.

1010
01:02:23,962 --> 01:02:35,922
Speaker 2: Thank you. The Spill is produced by Peter Duff and

1011
01:02:36,102 --> 01:02:39,622
Speaker 2: edited by Aline Brown. This episode was reported by Adam

1012
01:02:39,662 --> 01:02:44,142
Speaker 2: Lowenstein and edited by me, Amy Westervelt. Our theme song

1013
01:02:44,282 --> 01:02:48,582
Speaker 2: is Bird in the Hand by Fournone. Artwork by Matthew Fleming.

1014
01:02:49,362 --> 01:02:51,882
Speaker 2: You can find a transcript of this episode related to

1015
01:02:51,942 --> 01:02:56,432
Speaker 2: reporting and our weekly newsletter on our website at drilled.media.

1016
01:02:56,982 --> 01:02:59,182
Speaker 2: And don't forget to follow us on all the social

1017
01:02:59,262 --> 01:03:00,582
Speaker 2: media channels.

1018
01:03:00,122 --> 01:03:01,722
Speaker 1: At Drilled Media.

1019
01:03:02,282 --> 01:03:04,192
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.