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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you. I never lie.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief,

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Speaker 2: m manipulation from two opaque people who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 4: I am Low LeBlanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is once again Jennamuscavage, former Scientology c

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Speaker 2: ORG member and niece of Scientology leader David Misscavage. In

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Speaker 2: the second half of our interview this week, she'll tell

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Speaker 2: us about leaving the Ranch for Children in the Sea

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Speaker 2: Org and getting involved in a higher level management. We'll

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Speaker 2: discuss how she barely knew her own parents, the constant

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Speaker 2: paranoia she saw from every one at all levels, and

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Speaker 2: how to date in se ORG, which was not fun.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how her ex husband was punished and

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Speaker 1: sent to highly controlled isolation, and how it took Jenna

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Speaker 1: threatening to kill herself to get him out, what she

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Speaker 1: thinks is going on with the Shelley Misscavage, and how

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Speaker 1: Jenna finally left and was threatened with family separation and

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Speaker 1: followed by private investigators.

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Speaker 4: Classic fun.

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Speaker 1: That's how she has time to herself now to finally think.

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Speaker 2: Should we Sharekulty's thing again?

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Speaker 1: I think we should, because this week's is something that's

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Speaker 1: so broad that I think we should dig a little

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Speaker 1: deeper into it.

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Speaker 2: So last week, Taylor Swifts one of her many I'm sure,

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Speaker 2: but her like I would say, best known stalker, her

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Speaker 2: main guy, David Crowe, was arrested for stalking her two

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Speaker 2: hours after he was released from court for stalking her. Yikes,

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Speaker 2: this is not the first time he has tried to

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Speaker 2: get into her home. It is amazing to me that

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Speaker 2: even at the highest levels of money and celebrity or

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Speaker 2: security like you, there's still really not that much that

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Speaker 2: police ever really do about stalkers. It's like they might

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Speaker 2: throw a restraining order on it, but like if someone

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Speaker 2: is at that level of unhinged, like what is the

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Speaker 2: restraining order actually going.

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Speaker 4: To do nothing obviously, right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, like maybe because of who she is and

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Speaker 2: because she can literally cause an earthquake essentially because her

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Speaker 2: fans are like stampeding the stadium, maybe this could actually

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Speaker 2: lead to some change in law, which many people like

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Speaker 2: Leonora Clare have been advocating for for a long time.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, little history of t Swift stalkers.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, a man drove his car into

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Speaker 2: her building to try to get into her house. Another

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Speaker 2: guy was broken to her house and was found sleeping

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Speaker 2: in her bed. In twenty eighteen, a guy named Travis

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Speaker 2: Ryan King was incredibly obsessed with her and ended up

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Speaker 2: killing four people in Nashville. And if he had somehow

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Speaker 2: had access to her, who fucking knows. Being a celebrity

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Speaker 2: at that level she terrifying.

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Speaker 1: I think the only person who is normal about it

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Speaker 1: is Kendall Jenner, who's always having anxiety attacks.

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Speaker 4: That's true, and I'm like, honestly normal response.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I bet there are a lot of people

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Speaker 2: who are having constant anxiety attacks, but we don't know

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Speaker 2: about it because their secret. Because I don't know, because

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Speaker 2: people don't necessarily always want to share their mental health struggle.

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Speaker 4: Like I remember when Kim Kardashian got basically kidnapped and

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Speaker 4: tied up in a too that was horrifying. I would

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Speaker 4: be like, I'm done being a celebrity.

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Speaker 1: The strength or whatever it takes to remain at that

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Speaker 1: height is crazy. But to bring it back to what

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Speaker 1: we're really talking about here, like we talked to so

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Speaker 1: many people who need protection from people. When you leave

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Speaker 1: high control groups or scientology especially, they send these people after.

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Speaker 4: You and nobody can do shit about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they send private investigators who are like

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Speaker 2: who know the exact legal limits of what they're doing,

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Speaker 2: and like there might be less of a risk that

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Speaker 2: they'll violently harm people, but they are threatening them and

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Speaker 2: harassing them.

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Speaker 4: I'm afraid, like.

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Speaker 1: Following, and yeah, these laws need to be definitely re examined.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't know what the answer is. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can't throw people in jail for like thinking about

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Speaker 2: doing stocking or for like you know, like considering committing

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Speaker 2: a crime. And so I understand why there's hesitancy to act,

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Speaker 2: but like, also, we're not protecting people and Taylor, at

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Speaker 2: least Taylor Swift and Kim Kardashian. They're like the richest

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Speaker 2: most maybe people live. They have hell of security. It's

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Speaker 2: those like mid level celebrities that I actually think are

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Speaker 2: in much higher danger because the average person in Hollywood

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Speaker 2: cannot afford fucking security guard to follow them around everywhere. No,

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Speaker 2: and regular as people get stocked as well, and it's

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Speaker 2: no protection.

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Speaker 1: So Harry and Meghan said they had they like one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons they left England is because they weren't

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Speaker 1: paying them for security and like not even the prints

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Speaker 1: of Wales can afford.

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Speaker 2: It, right he can now.

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Speaker 1: Because it's expensive spare, Yeah it's expensive.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's expensive. And also people don't care, like

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Speaker 2: law enforcement just we have a long way to go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not that they don't care, but like they

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Speaker 1: don't have the they don't have the resources either, like.

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Speaker 2: I mean, something they can do. Sometimes I think they

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Speaker 2: actively don't care. But yes, I'm sure there are people

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Speaker 2: who do and just don't have.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think the majority care and are like there's nothing

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Speaker 4: I can do.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: That's been my experience, but who knows.

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Speaker 2: There's I mean whatever. Stocking as a whole we did

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Speaker 2: a whole stocking episode if anyone wants to go find

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Speaker 2: it with the hosts of Strictly Stalking. I know people

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Speaker 2: who have had to go to court in the same

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Speaker 2: room as their stalker and like that. There's so much

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Speaker 2: that's fucked up that needs to change. But anyway, that's

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Speaker 2: a form of extreme belief is stockers. I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: tie it in here. We know that all humans are

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Speaker 2: capable of extremes in various ways. Stalkers are obviously among

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Speaker 2: the fringes, and among the more extreme. There are people

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Speaker 2: who struggle with mental illness. So basically, we hope that

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift having stalkers be such a big problem will

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Speaker 2: somehow contribute to some kind of change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if we can't have hope and Taylor Swift changing

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Speaker 1: things right now in her career, then what hope do

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Speaker 1: we have for real?

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Speaker 2: Listen, Stocking is not directly related to colts, y'all, but

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Speaker 2: it is a form of extreme belief. And also there

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Speaker 2: are plenty of colts who engage in stocking themselves, and

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Speaker 2: we hope that laws, thanks to t Swift, eventually reflect that. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: should we talk about scientology, now, let's do it. So

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Speaker 2: what happened when you did graduate from we were sixteen,

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Speaker 2: you said, right, from the cadet programs.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, so no, I wound up leaving the ranch

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Speaker 3: when I was twelve.

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Speaker 2: Of the ranch, okay, yes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was sent to Florida to do training.

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Speaker 3: So I was in the sea Jorg at that point.

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Speaker 3: I was no longer a cadet. You can be in

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Speaker 3: the or that young yeah, okay, yeah, well you could

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Speaker 3: at that time. So neither my mom and dad were

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Speaker 3: in Florida. They were at Still and Helmet, and so

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Speaker 3: I was by myself, so I didn't see them at all.

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Speaker 3: And I was like training to become do like a

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Speaker 3: certain kind of counseling in scientology.

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Speaker 2: What kind of counseling, Well, I was part of.

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Speaker 3: It's actually not counsel. I was part of an organization

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Speaker 3: that like manages management. It's like there's so many bureaucratic

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Speaker 3: levels of the Sea organ scientology that it's like that

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Speaker 3: would not be able to exist in any other company

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Speaker 3: because other companies have to like pay for their labor,

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Speaker 3: where Scichilogist doesn't do whatever they want. But I was

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Speaker 3: just in this This group was called the Commodore's messenger organization,

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Speaker 3: and they're just like the higher management level. And I

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Speaker 3: was learning to do what's called the auditing so that

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Speaker 3: I could help them execute their programs in some way.

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Speaker 2: How'd you feel about auditing?

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Speaker 3: So it's like different than the auditing on the Bridge

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Speaker 3: to total freedom. It's more like like it would have

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Speaker 3: been more like doing confessionals on people who were not

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Speaker 3: being compliant. And so I never really did that. I

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Speaker 3: was just training to do it.

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Speaker 4: Got it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And some of the training is the same as

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Speaker 3: the regular counseling, but you wound up using it in

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Speaker 3: a different way.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, So in the regular counseling you also do confessionals,

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Speaker 3: but confessionals are also used in more of like an

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Speaker 3: organizational way to sort of like basically make people do

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Speaker 3: the things that they should be doing and finding out

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Speaker 3: why they're not finding out their secrets that are stopping

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Speaker 3: them from doing their job basically if they.

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Speaker 2: Don't, even the people who are making people feel in

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Speaker 2: trouble also are feeling like they're in trouble all the time.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's in trouble. Yeah, I was getting confessionals security checks

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Speaker 3: the whole time I was there, the whole time training

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Speaker 3: to security check other people who are training to security

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Speaker 3: check other people. It's like all a big.

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Speaker 2: Jesus sounds so exhausting.

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Speaker 5: I hate this place so much.

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Speaker 1: Did anyone feel like they were Was anybody just a

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Speaker 1: person that you were like, oh, yeah, they're not going

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Speaker 1: to get in trouble, like they're safe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that everyone thinks that about the organization

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Speaker 3: that's a level above them.

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Speaker 4: Oh smart.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So, like I was in CMO and like we

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Speaker 3: would have to like like at staff meeting, we would

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Speaker 3: have to like watch people to make sure that they

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Speaker 3: were like not falling asleep during it, and they would

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Speaker 3: get in trouble. But then so they probably thought that

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Speaker 3: we were like we had it easy, but no, we didn't.

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Speaker 3: There was an organization above us, like called RTC, and

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Speaker 3: they were doing that to us, And then they.

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Speaker 5: Must have been so exhausted.

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Speaker 1: You're having to watch out for people not falling asleep,

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Speaker 1: like you guys were exhausted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so were the people who wanted to go

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Speaker 3: to sleep to listen to some boring stuff. I mean

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Speaker 3: I remember sitting at the staff meetings and like having

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Speaker 3: this trick where I could keep my eyes open for

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Speaker 3: the longest possible time until my eyes would start like

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Speaker 3: watering and like going crazy, and then I would just

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Speaker 3: like go the bathroom and then start all over again.

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Speaker 3: But for some reason, I was really good at staying awake,

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Speaker 3: and I was like had to keep everyone around me away.

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Speaker 5: What are they dravening on about?

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Speaker 3: Like everyone would announce their statistics or what their plan

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Speaker 3: was for the next week, or sometimes we were listening

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Speaker 3: to like an a lecture by al Ron Hubbard, like

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Speaker 3: it was called like a tape play, and he was

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Speaker 3: just like going on about signology. It was so boring,

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Speaker 3: so boring, and they always made them at like eleven

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Speaker 3: o'clock at night. I know, but we had to be

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Speaker 3: doing our jobs. We had to be servicing the public

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Speaker 3: during those hours. So so not okay.

223
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Speaker 2: So your parents left church right right when I was sixteen?

224
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 2: What happened? And how did that impact you?

225
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,679
Speaker 3: So I had already been in Florida since I was

226
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,319
Speaker 3: twelve when my parents left, I didn't so all of

227
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 3: a sudden one day, I was just like taking out

228
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,160
Speaker 3: of my job that I was doing, and I started

229
00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,480
Speaker 3: getting security checked by like basically the most important person

230
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 3: on the base. They were in the organization above. They

231
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,839
Speaker 3: were the highest level I had known her because she

232
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,920
Speaker 3: previously was like one of my uncle's assistants. It was

233
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 3: always them that were security checking me and following up

234
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 3: with me because because I was gen a scavenge, so

235
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,640
Speaker 3: in that way, I got like way more screwed over

236
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 3: than the average person. I always had RTC on my

237
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 3: ass security checking me. And then so I started getting

238
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 3: the security check for like a million hours a day.

239
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 3: And when I wasn't doing that, someone I had to

240
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 3: be in this room listening to Ellen Hubbard lectures about

241
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 3: how you need to confess everything. Basically, or I was

242
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 3: cleaning the bathroom or the back stairwell, and that's what

243
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 3: I did all day. When I would go home at night,

244
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 3: someone would sit outside my door to make sure I

245
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:52,560
Speaker 3: didn't try to escape.

246
00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:53,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

247
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,280
Speaker 3: And that's basically what I did. And I didn't really

248
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 3: know why until after like a couple months of this. Oh,

249
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 3: and then I was like put into a different uniform.

250
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,600
Speaker 3: I wasn't allowed to talk to any of my friends.

251
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 3: I was just completely isolated. I was either in the confessional,

252
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 3: or in the study room, or in the bathroom, and

253
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 3: many times I had to eat in the bathroom because

254
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,400
Speaker 3: they would say that, like my uncle was passing through

255
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 3: the hall and if he had to see me then

256
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,440
Speaker 3: it would be upsetting to him. So I couldn't go

257
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 3: out of the bathroom. So then finally, after a couple

258
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 3: months of that, I was brought to La and I

259
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:30,960
Speaker 3: didn't know that I would never be coming back to

260
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 3: see any of my friends or anything like that again,

261
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,959
Speaker 3: I mean all of those people. I never saw them again.

262
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,600
Speaker 3: And I was told that my parents had left and

263
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,360
Speaker 3: that they were in Mexico and I was supposed to

264
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 3: go with them, and so I was like, well, I

265
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 3: don't want to, And I didn't want to because I

266
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 3: had sort of like I wanted to be with my

267
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,199
Speaker 3: friends kind of, and I didn't really feel like I

268
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,959
Speaker 3: knew my parents. It's like I hardly talked to them

269
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,079
Speaker 3: at all the entire time I was in Florida, and

270
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 3: even like before that, I didn't have much time with

271
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:08,880
Speaker 3: my mom at all.

272
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 5: And now they're suppressive people, correct, right.

273
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 3: They are now suppressive people. But if I'm honest, like

274
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,560
Speaker 3: I didn't really think they were suppressive people, but I

275
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 3: knew that I would be considered one if I went

276
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 3: with them, right, And so I would really never see

277
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 3: anybody who I knew ever again. Wow, And that was

278
00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 3: too much for me. And I wasn't like there was

279
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,600
Speaker 3: nothing learning to me about going with them, Like I

280
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,559
Speaker 3: was gonna now have to go to a public school

281
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,040
Speaker 3: where I was like convinced that I would get drugged,

282
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,719
Speaker 3: I would be so far behind because from the time

283
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,480
Speaker 3: I was twelve till I was sixteen, I only went

284
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 3: to school one day a week. And again there was

285
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 3: no grades like I didn't have, so I was like,

286
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 3: would have been so far behind. I was just afraid

287
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 3: I was going to be around Woggs, who once again

288
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 3: I did not know any wogs. So it's like this

289
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,320
Speaker 3: whole thing, not even that's not even just about my parents.

290
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,200
Speaker 3: It's like every single thing in your entire life is

291
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 3: going to completely change and be completely different, and you're

292
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:09,960
Speaker 3: never going to be able to speak to anybody who

293
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,880
Speaker 3: you knew ever again, Oh my god. And I was

294
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:17,560
Speaker 3: like for my parents who I barely know, and yeah,

295
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 3: there just wasn't that bond there. So I basically like

296
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 3: convinced them to let me stay at that point and

297
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 3: then I didn't leave until I was twenty one.

298
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 4: Plus you'd sign that Billy in your contract, so which.

299
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: You're still in. How did you end up in Australia

300
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,120
Speaker 2: and how did that shift your thinking?

301
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 3: So, like I believe, when I was twenty, me and

302
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 3: my husband were sent on a project to Australia because

303
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,360
Speaker 3: Scientology had this program that they were doing to have

304
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,160
Speaker 3: every Scientology church have this big, glowing, wonderful building that

305
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 3: anybody who walked by it would want to go into

306
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,440
Speaker 3: because it was so beautiful and great. And so we

307
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 3: were sent to Canberra and they wanted us to find

308
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,040
Speaker 3: a building for the local Scientology church there and fund

309
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 3: raised all the money for it, which is like millions

310
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 3: of dollars, and so we were sent there to do that.

311
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 3: But this org there had like five people and they

312
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,280
Speaker 3: had no money and they could barely pay their rent.

313
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 3: And they had like, I mean maybe fifteen public who

314
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 3: we were supposed to be getting this money from. So

315
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,400
Speaker 3: it was like a joke. They're pretty much trying to

316
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 3: get rid of us. That's I mean, that's the only

317
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 3: explanation for this. But we wound up being there for

318
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 3: about a year. We raised some money, but it basically

319
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 3: like we had an apartment. We dealt with wogs because

320
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 3: we were dealing with like real estate agents, whether it

321
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 3: was for our apartment or looking for a building, and

322
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,000
Speaker 3: we like ate in regular places. We like rode the bus,

323
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,120
Speaker 3: we rode bikes, and I got Yeah, so it was

324
00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 3: like just completely different and like we could get sleep, eat,

325
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 3: like we would even have to like cook sometimes, which

326
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 3: I'd never done, and so it was just completely different.

327
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 3: We made friends with some of the public scientologists there,

328
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 3: some of whom had kids, and so we would like

329
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 3: be hanging out with their kids and stuff, and it

330
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 3: just was something that I never really got to do previously.

331
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,760
Speaker 3: It was just like completely different, and so it sort

332
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 3: of like was a different world. And yeah, it was

333
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,920
Speaker 3: much easier and much more calm, And I think that

334
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 3: the biggest impact on me came actually when we went back.

335
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 3: So this was all like these were all big changes

336
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 3: when I was there, but it was so stark when

337
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,240
Speaker 3: I went back, right and it was like back to

338
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 3: like absolute hell, no sleep, everyone getting yelled at all

339
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 3: the time. They were confiscating everyone's cell phones. They were

340
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,520
Speaker 3: like setting around interrogatories to try to see like who

341
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 3: was saying what about who. People were getting like screamed

342
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 3: at in front of all the group meetings. The whole

343
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 3: organization was like considered in trouble. It was just endless,

344
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,920
Speaker 3: like beat downs, one thing after another, taking away every

345
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 3: single little joy that anybody had, like systematically, like you

346
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 3: can't listen to music while you're working, can have snacks

347
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 3: in your drawer, And I know those seem like stupid

348
00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,919
Speaker 3: things compared to the overall whole brainwashing everything else, but

349
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 3: they were just like they were so stupid and petty,

350
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,080
Speaker 3: these little things that it was like, Okay, how do

351
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 3: you explain why it's okay for you to do that?

352
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,680
Speaker 3: You're not even like it's just taking it too far.

353
00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 3: It became to a point where I was like, I

354
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 3: don't see how we're really trying to make people happy

355
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,280
Speaker 3: when everyone around me, who I care about and who

356
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 3: are my friends, is getting treated like shit every day.

357
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 3: Like I was almost like, why do I care about

358
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,840
Speaker 3: helping all these other strangers when the people who I'm

359
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 3: with right now are being told they're a piece of

360
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,760
Speaker 3: shit all day every day. And I just couldn't reconcile that.

361
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 3: I tried really hard, I tried to find an excuse

362
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 3: for them why it was okay, and I just couldn't.

363
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:12,159
Speaker 2: Eventually, I was gonna ask, like, you got married, what

364
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,200
Speaker 2: does dating look like in that environment? Because if your

365
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 2: time is so controlled, like, how do you even date?

366
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,480
Speaker 2: How do you even fall in love?

367
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,919
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, that's a good question. So basically dating is

368
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 3: like something where you can spend time with that person

369
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 3: after you get home already at midnight. And I mean

370
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,800
Speaker 3: sort of what's the point of getting to know someone

371
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,000
Speaker 3: when what they want to do in life is be

372
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 3: in scientology in this York when their favorite person is

373
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 3: going to also be l Ron Hubbard, And what are

374
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,639
Speaker 3: they going to be doing in the next year the

375
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 3: same thing that you're doing, you know what I mean.

376
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 3: So it's like we're all the same basically, you know.

377
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 3: So there's not like, I don't know, there's not too

378
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 3: much to get to know to talk about, right or

379
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,679
Speaker 3: it's just of course you have everything in common. Of

380
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 3: course they're great. If you think they're cute, then of

381
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 3: course it's going to work out because you're both going

382
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 3: to be there forever. And not only that, if you

383
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 3: get married, you can have your own birthing without seven

384
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 3: other people in it, where you just can share with

385
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 3: that person, So you get like a room upgrade that

386
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 3: sort of thing. So you can't have sex before you're married,

387
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,680
Speaker 3: and you can't do any sort of like heavy petting,

388
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 3: like touching private parts or anything like that. If you do,

389
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 3: you basically get assigned to this program that's called the RPF.

390
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 3: It's the Rehabilitation Project Force, where you have to wear

391
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 3: all black, you have to do manual labor, like the

392
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 3: heaviest manual labor all day. Nobody can speak to you

393
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,919
Speaker 3: unless you're spoken to, and you get five hours a

394
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 3: day of security checking. And it's like the special kind

395
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,120
Speaker 3: of security checking confessionals where they you look for your

396
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 3: evil purpose that came before you did that bad thing.

397
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 3: So it's like another level of brainwashing.

398
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: The punishment that really have punishment down in this group.

399
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 3: Right Yeah, And like so if you don't comply or

400
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 3: you don't do certain things, you have to do push ups,

401
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 3: you have to run in circles. It's just like there's

402
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 3: so many punishments and so on. The RPF. It's like

403
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 3: the worst place you And.

404
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: If you got sent there, correct because you did have

405
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: premarital sex? Am I remembering this correctly?

406
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 3: So I should have gotten sent there because I did

407
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 3: have premarital sex, but I didn't because that was a

408
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 3: big old bitch when it had no Well, so it

409
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 3: was basically I, me and my ex husband wanted to

410
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 3: get married and they said that we couldn't because of

411
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 3: because of my name. There was one of Dallas's uncles

412
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 3: was like looking online about scientology and read some bad

413
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 3: things and so they took like months or a year

414
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,920
Speaker 3: to try to resolve this, and really, technically they should

415
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 3: have just let me got married, right, So I felt

416
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 3: like not bad about doing that at all, and I

417
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: felt like they should have let me get married, which

418
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 3: was stupid. It's actually a violation of the rules. Nobody

419
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 3: else maybe would have thought the way that I was

420
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 3: thinking about it. But I had just been fucked over

421
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 3: so many times, Like I was already ripped away from

422
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 3: all of my friends in Florida, never saw them again.

423
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 3: Like this other guy like there, I could never talk

424
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 3: to him again. So by the time this was happening,

425
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 3: this is already you know, I've been ripped away from

426
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 3: my parents previously when I was twelve years old. So

427
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 3: by the time this was happening, I was just like

428
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 3: fuck everybody, Like I do what I want, and if

429
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 3: I say I'm not going to go to the RPA,

430
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 3: are you gonna make me? Like? I try? But Dallas

431
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 3: felt bad about it, and so he told on us,

432
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 3: and so they were like trying to like they separated us.

433
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 3: They wouldn't tell me where he was. I like went

434
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,199
Speaker 3: on this rampage to try to find him. I was

435
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: like busting down doors looking for him everywhere, and it

436
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 3: just was like a big old mess.

437
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 2: Where was he?

438
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 3: He was in the basement of the Scientology building, the

439
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 3: big blue one.

440
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: Is there's just creepy shit because I drive by that

441
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: every day. Is there's just creepy shit in that basement.

442
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 1: Also side note, I tried to move into the Celebrity Center.

443
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 1: When I first moved to.

444
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 5: LA I was like, I love this building.

445
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 3: I core.

446
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 5: This is great and super cute.

447
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 3: It was super cute. My mom renovated.

448
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: That no way, Well she did a great job.

449
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 5: But yeah, is underground in the blue building?

450
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: Is it just a am I trying to like a dungeon?

451
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: It just happens to the underground. But he was doing

452
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: like tiling And then he was also like in a

453
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: room getting a security check with like a camera on

454
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: him and the whole thing, trying to find his evil purposes.

455
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, he was just being watched day and night,

456
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: someone outside of his door, you know, only allowed to

457
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 3: eat in isolation, not allowed to talk to other people.

458
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: And how did you get him out of there? What happened?

459
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 3: I basically hung myself out the window of the fifth

460
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: floor of the building on Hollywood and said that if

461
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 3: I don't see, if you don't bring him here, then

462
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 3: I'm gonna let go.

463
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 5: And were you really going.

464
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 3: To to be honest, like I wouldn't see. I don't know,

465
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 3: like was I stupid enough to Probably because I thought

466
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 3: I was a spiritual being, Like I thought that I

467
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 3: would just come back as a baby. So it wasn't

468
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 3: like that deep as big of a deal. Yeah, and

469
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: it was like, well, this life sucks, But it wasn't

470
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 3: like every day before that I was like I want

471
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: to kill myself, right, So it was sort of like

472
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: I felt like the only thing I had over them

473
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 3: was my name basically, and that they would be tear

474
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 3: to have me jumping out the building, right, They look

475
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: really bad on them, right, not because they cared about me,

476
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: but it would look really bad on them.

477
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: Of course. I mean that's pretty strong leverage TB. Yeah,

478
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: so when people mess up in some way, which obviously

479
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 2: is everything you do is messing up.

480
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, every single thing you do.

481
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: But how frequent is it that someone will just be

482
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 2: kind of hidden away or like sent into isolation, like

483
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: essentially kept prisoner.

484
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: So it depends on how bad what you do. Is

485
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 3: there certain things that are worse than others, and so

486
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: you you know, the RPF is sort of that isolation

487
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: prison type thing.

488
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: Obviously, someone who first joined scientology isn't given this experience,

489
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 2: or they would never stay in you know, in talking

490
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: to other former scientologists who maybe joined when they were

491
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: a bit older, like, what's your sense of how different

492
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 2: that experience is? Like slowly over time it becomes more

493
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 2: controlling the how does that work generally?

494
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 3: Well, it's because there's different levels of membership in scientology,

495
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,400
Speaker 3: and those different level membership get different treatment. So we're

496
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: talking about my experience is all about the sea org, right,

497
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: and that's the most strict, most regimented, right. And then

498
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: so a lot of like the so there's like public

499
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 3: scientologists and they can live in their own house, they

500
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 3: can have their own car, they can watch TV, they

501
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: can go on the internet.

502
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 5: Is like a Tom Cruise, I'm assuming exactly.

503
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and many others, like many many other people. There's

504
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 3: more public scientologists than there are sea org members. So

505
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 3: just regular people and they and they can have a

506
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 3: regular job and they just go into the scientology church

507
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: and they pay for counseling or training and they do that.

508
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: The more manageable version that yeah, probably feels like it's

509
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: actually filling a need versus like military, right.

510
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: That's exactly. That's so like what you just said is

511
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: like that it's filling a need, like if you have

512
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 3: a life, and that scientology is in some way helping

513
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: you with it, you know, like your grand right exactly.

514
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: That's totally different than like growing up in it and

515
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 3: learning all these things that are like basically just the

516
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: bane of your existence. Like you don't even need help yet,

517
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: You only need help getting away from scientology, right right.

518
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 3: Scientology is essentially your ruin, right. So yeah, so these

519
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 3: public scientologists are getting maybe some help in that way.

520
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 3: But there is also like a big snitching culture with

521
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: public scientologists too. They have to do all that stuff

522
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: as well. And usually, like many scientologists work at a

523
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: company with other scientologists. Everyone they know is a scientologist.

524
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: They're mostly married to a scientologist and their kids probably

525
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: go to a scientology school so they don't escape all

526
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: of the abuse. There's many kids who grew up in

527
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: scientology who who were not in this year who had

528
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: a horrible experience.

529
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: I found it interesting. I was watching some very YouTube

530
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: videos you were having a discussion with somebody like Nicole

531
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: Kidman was a big source of can tension. I didn't

532
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: really realize that. I thought she was kind of in

533
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: scientology and then she left when she got a divorce

534
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: from Tom Cruise. But it was almost like she was

535
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: leading him astray, and I just found that interesting.

536
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not something that I have a ton

537
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 3: or that I have any first hand knowledge of, but

538
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: like I remember, at one point, I was having a

539
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 3: conversation with my aunt Shelley, and she said that like

540
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 3: Tom Cruise is laser focused and a lot of people

541
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: think of him as being like how Dave is. And

542
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 3: then I asked her about Nicole Kidman and she was like,

543
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 3: why are you asking? And then she was like, well,

544
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 3: she was like insinuated that she needed to be handled

545
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 3: because she's like sort of not into it. And I

546
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: think she told me that her father was a psychiatrist,

547
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: and that's like considered like a big no no and

548
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: scientific r right, where psychiatry is considered evil.

549
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I mean, speaking of Shelley, there's a question

550
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: where is Shelley.

551
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think that she I think that they

552
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: know where Shelley is, that she's she's posted in a

553
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: specific church organization, but in general, because she was my

554
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 3: uncle's assistant all of the rest of the time. She

555
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 3: was in the or she was seen publicly with him

556
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 3: all the time. But that's obviously no longer her job,

557
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: and so that's why she must have gotten in trouble,

558
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: gotten busted or something. I don't know for what exactly,

559
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 3: And so now she's just working at another sework base.

560
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 3: But I mean, I'm sure that she's very controlled because

561
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 3: they don't want to be losing her, you know who,

562
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 3: like with all the things that she knows.

563
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: I think even of just what you described about what

564
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: happened to Dallas, I mean, like he was supervised at

565
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: all times, and Shelley, obviously there's been a big movement

566
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: to find her so.

567
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: Right, so even I was supervised heavily at times. So

568
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: the amount of that that Shelley would get would be

569
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: that's like the worst of the worst, you know, Yeah,

570
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: But I mean she's not technically missing anymore than any

571
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 3: the others. You remember, it is you know, like I

572
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: have friends who have been there their whole life, and

573
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't see them publicly, but they're not missing.

574
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 3: So it's a change for her not to be seen

575
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: in the public. But you know, she is at that

576
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: base doing you know, probably under a high security situation,

577
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: your scientology stuff.

578
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: And did you have any sense of like whether she

579
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: had any inkling of doubt in her I mean.

580
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 3: I guess she sort of like disappeared, if that's what

581
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 3: we're calling it, like shortly after I left. I mean,

582
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 3: she always seemed to be softening Dave's blow in some ways,

583
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: like she would sort of like if he would not

584
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: not in every case, but in some situations, even with me,

585
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: like if you would be angry or whatever, like she

586
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: would come behind and be like, okay, like you're it's

587
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: not going to be as bad if you just do this,

588
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: then you'll be fine again. You know, So in that

589
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: way I could see that that would be the like

590
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: I guess in some way that is a doubt. But

591
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: she was very much a big believer in scientology, itself

592
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: and in l Ron Hubbard. So I could see that

593
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: if Dave like diverted from those policies in any way,

594
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 3: she would probably have noticed and would be more inclined

595
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: to be on the side of a true believer of

596
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: Elron Hubbard than Dave himself. Ah interesting, probably because she

597
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: more than anybody, would have seen him as human.

598
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: Right, So you left? So what happened when you left?

599
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: How did people react? Was it scary?

600
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I wanted to leave, and then at the

601
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: time my ex husband said he would leave with me.

602
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 3: And then so you have to get through this whole

603
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: confessional when you're leaving. And they wanted me to do

604
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: some other auditing before that, and I was like no,

605
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: if I like cannot have an confessional or auditing, I've

606
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 3: had so many I'm never doing it again. It was

607
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: like I couldn't make myself, like I just my body

608
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 3: could not make myself anymore. And they wanted me to

609
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: sign this like bond that was like I'll pay a

610
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 3: million dollars or ten thousand dollars for every time I

611
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: speak out about scientology. And I was just like shredded it.

612
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: I was like like the And so then I wanted

613
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 3: to leave, but my ex husband wanted to stay because

614
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: they got to him. They talked to him by my back,

615
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: were telling him that my family was horrible, that I

616
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: was horrible, and that if he left with me, he

617
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: would never see his family again, which was a big

618
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: deal for him because he did not grow up in

619
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: This York. He lived with his family and had a

620
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 3: relatively normal life before that. And so they wound up

621
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: trying to separate us, and I was about to leave,

622
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: and then last minute I was like, Okay, I'm gonna

623
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: stay and try to get him out, and then he

624
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: wound up telling me that they had been talking to

625
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 3: him behind my back and all this shit that they

626
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 3: were doing. And then finally we wound up leaving together

627
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: and we drove to his family's house in San Diego,

628
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 3: and before we left, the security chief in La told

629
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 3: him that he was going to do everything in his

630
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 3: power to make sure he never speaks to his family again.

631
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: And so then when we were in San Diego, we

632
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: started working at his parents' jewelry store, and just constantly

633
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 3: the church was in touch with them, telling them how

634
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: bad I was, that I was ruining their son's chance

635
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: at spiritual freedom that they would not be able to

636
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: do scientology, which at that point threatens their total freedom.

637
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: To them, it threatens their sons, It threatens their business

638
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: because their business partners a scientologists. It threatens everything. And

639
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: so they weren't really willing to hear what we were

640
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 3: saying about how abusive it was. They were just sort

641
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: of like their status in scientology was the most important thing.

642
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: And like I just remember one day when we were

643
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: at work, we got all Dallas my ex husband got

644
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 3: a call and it was someone who said, is this

645
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: Dallas Hill. He said yes, and he was like, I'm

646
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: just a good samaritan. I just want to let you

647
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 3: know that you're being followed. And he was like huh,

648
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: and he was like, yeah, I have a police scanner.

649
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 3: And your wife went here to get her hair cut yesterday,

650
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: then you went here. And so we were just being

651
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: followed by pis all the time without even knowing it.

652
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: Like I wouldn't even have known to look, and you know,

653
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 3: and then when I started speaking out, they kept trying

654
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: to like arrange meetings. They tried to get Dallas's family

655
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 3: to disconnect from us, just like a whole.

656
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: Is Dallas's family still I know, you guys are no

657
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: longer together, but is this family still in it?

658
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: They're not in it. No, they wound up sort of

659
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: being kicked out, oh man. Yeah, because when when I

660
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 3: wrote my book, it was like the like they got

661
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 3: his mom fired from her job because she worked at

662
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: a scientology company, and they just wound up being like, Okay,

663
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: you're obviously not going to disconnec from them. So YEAHO.

664
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 2: Since you've started speaking out, I mean, what impact has

665
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 2: that had on you and also on other people? Have

666
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: you noticed any changes like what's happened.

667
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 3: When we first started speaking out in like two thousand

668
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: and eight. So I do think that the climate around

669
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: speaking out about scientology has really changed. And I don't

670
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: think that that's just because of me at all, Like

671
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: so many other people have come forward. It's definitely not

672
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: just because of me. So many people have come forward

673
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: and have told their stories and they all sort of

674
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 3: corroborate each other. And it used to be where Scientology

675
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: could sue someone into oblivion, have them lose their job,

676
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 3: intimidate them so much, and now I think that's it's

677
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 3: a lot different. Now there's just the Internet, there's social media,

678
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 3: there's YouTube, it's like, you can't shut everyone up now,

679
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: and you can't keep all of the information away from

680
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 3: the people who were there either, it's gonna slip in somewhere.

681
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: So I think that it's just like a completely different world,

682
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 3: and speaking out about it was really cathartic. At the time.

683
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 3: I just couldn't, like I was so pissed off about

684
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: how I had been treated. But also it was very

685
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: hard because not because it was hard to talk about it,

686
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 3: but because I got so much shit from Dallas's family

687
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 3: and in many cases my family was not supportive. And

688
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: it's hard enough to get yourself out of a cult,

689
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: and then you're trying to be brave and talk about

690
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 3: something that's important and you're just still constantly getting gas lit.

691
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 3: It's exhausting. And then you're a mom. So like I

692
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: left when I was twenty one, my son was born

693
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 3: just before I turned twenty five, So there was just

694
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 3: a period of time where I was just like after

695
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 3: my book, it was just like I can't like fight anymore,

696
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: like I'm just going to And also it was like

697
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: I'm not going to have talking about scientology be the

698
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,439
Speaker 3: thing that takes away from my kid's childhood in any way.

699
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 3: Because that would be idiotic, and that would be repeating

700
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: the cycle, and I'm not going to do that at all.

701
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: You're so amazing. I'm so obsessed with you.

702
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, You're You're amazing.

703
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: I'm not though, I really like you.

704
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 3: I'm real good.

705
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 2: I'm thank you. I mean, yeah, so being you're a

706
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: parent now, I mean, thank god you're out of that

707
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: for you for being a parent.

708
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

709
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 5: I like a quote by you.

710
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: You said it's not all over once you leave, and

711
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: I think you're just saying like, and I think a

712
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: lot of people listening need to hear, because a lot

713
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: of people listening have been in cults, are leaving cults,

714
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: and it's just a good reminder that leaving is just

715
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: the beginning. Family out falling is out falling a word.

716
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: Falling out, fallout, family fallout, family fallout.

717
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: There's I mean, these beliefs just don't disappear overnight because

718
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: you decide not to follow them anymore. You know, there's

719
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: so much burden and then for for a really long time.

720
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: So how do you how do you move through that

721
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: and what do you suggest to people?

722
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm still working on it. I mean, at

723
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 3: some point, like you think that you've reevaluated all your beliefs,

724
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 3: and maybe you have, but you don't even think, Oh,

725
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 3: I'm so used to being treated in this shitty way

726
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: where you know what I mean, Like you don't even

727
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: know your blind spots. So and it's like or you're

728
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 3: like doing things like you know, in my marriage, I

729
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 3: got married when I was eighteen, like none of my

730
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: family members were present, and of course we had everything

731
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 3: in common at that time. But it's like this whole

732
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 3: idea that if I come out of scientology and then

733
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: I fail, then they will have been right, yes, And

734
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 3: so it's like I'm trying to hold it together for

735
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 3: everybody else besides myself because I'm so unimportant basically, and

736
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 3: I you know, and my kids are the most important

737
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 3: thing in the world to me. But at some point,

738
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 3: like I have to realize, like, actually, I'm important too,

739
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: even if I didn't get treated like I was when

740
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 3: I was a kid, Like technically, there's no reason why

741
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 3: my kids are so much more important than me, even

742
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 3: though of course to me they are, but it's just

743
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 3: like like mathematically, it's just not the case. So I

744
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm just coming around to some of these

745
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 3: things and dealing with it, and you know, there's a

746
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: lot of ex scientologists who have been really helpful just

747
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 3: being able to compare stories, and just the more people

748
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: talking about it, you know, different people are moving forward

749
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 3: in different parts of their lives from different and so

750
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: you know they might have an angle on it that

751
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 3: you hadn't thought of before. So I think we can

752
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 3: all help each other in that way. And then of

753
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: course there's like therapy.

754
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wema's a big proponent, and she got me into

755
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: like very niche therapy, like going to exactly what you

756
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 1: need the therapy for. And then I think just finding

757
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: that community of people who left the same high control

758
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: group as you is so helpful, like so helpful because

759
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: you don't have to explain all the language barriers and

760
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: rules and you can just be like right, it's amazing.

761
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's true.

762
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 3: And I avoided hanging out with ex scientologists for years,

763
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: just because I'm not in an area where there are

764
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: any and I would find myself getting so pissed off

765
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: when I would hear their stories that it would have

766
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 3: automatically made me rush back into speaking out about scientology,

767
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 3: and so I kind of had to take a break

768
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 3: from it. And there is a lot of good I

769
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: have found in also having a lot of non scientology friends,

770
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 3: because what you went through isn't normal to them.

771
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 5: Right, No, that's weird.

772
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: You're like, you know the thing where you have to

773
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: do manual labor for six hours in the morning.

774
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 3: They're like, no, exactly, And they sometimes, even though excellent,

775
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: just are also the total best, Like on some level

776
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: they're probably like, yeah, bro, you're fine. I had to

777
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 3: go through that too, right, People who haven't been in

778
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 3: they're like, no, this is really bad.

779
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 5: I think, Yeah, that's smart.

780
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 3: You get like a little more validate to.

781
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 5: Go to the well with the most water.

782
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: I like that is different different people for every purpose.

783
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also just taking a break because sometimes just

784
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: like sitting in it and marinating in it can get

785
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 2: emotionally exhausting. And like having other people also, I think

786
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 2: can be so helpful.

787
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: Totally, totally absolutely.

788
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: So, what what's next for you? How are you? How's

789
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: your life?

790
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 3: I'm doing better. I mean I did just get divorced,

791
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: but it's actually mind up, you know, being a really

792
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: good thing because I've never had a time in my

793
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 3: life to be by myself, so it's actually been nice

794
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 3: in many ways and just be able to go back

795
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,439
Speaker 3: to thinking what do I want, what's for me? And

796
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm getting a little bit back to

797
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: my old self. And now my kids are a little

798
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: bit older, so it's not taking up every second of

799
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 3: my time. So yeah, that's amazing, lots of journaling.

800
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: I have some time back. It's good to yes, get

801
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: that get that sense of self back. Go with your

802
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 2: eat prey love phase.

803
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 5: Super super new reference.

804
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: It's relevant.

805
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: I should read it.

806
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you have no don't watch the movie

807
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 1: read the book.

808
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: I don't. I think it's so cheesy, but I reference

809
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: it all the time because there's this like part of

810
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: my brain that feels like it relates to that idea

811
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 2: so strongly, of like, oh, woman rediscovering.

812
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 5: Such a good book.

813
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: I'm going on a journey. I'm finding my spirit, you know,

814
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: Like it's so stupid. I need a better reference for

815
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: that process than you pray love.

816
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 5: No, I like you pray love.

817
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: It's just OK.

818
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally got the idea when you said that. Yeah, yeah,

819
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: that is how it is. I mean I've been in

820
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 3: this marriage since I was eighteen. That's crazy. So it's

821
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: like it's almost like leaving scientology. And I'm not saying

822
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 3: that my ex husband is as bad as Scientology. I don't.

823
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 3: I don't mean that. I'm not not saying that. But

824
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: it's like a huge life change.

825
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, this is Yeah, you're you're You're on

826
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: your own for the first time.

827
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 5: This is going to be really exciting. Yeah. Yeah, wow,

828
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 5: Well we can't.

829
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: Wait to see what happens and keep abreast of your story.

830
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 5: What was that how you're saying? Yeah, where are words? Yeah?

831
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 5: Where can people follow you? Or do you post?

832
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 3: Or what's I have a YouTube channel? It's just genomous scavage.

833
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: I have not. I don't have a ton of content

834
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 3: up there, but I plan to in the future. I

835
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 3: just I'm still working on it. But so if there

836
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: there's going to be anything for me, it will be there.

837
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: Awesome. Thank you so much for talking to us, And

838
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: it's very enlightening. It's enlightening. You're just so authentic. You

839
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: have such a like down to earth presence and I

840
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: really appreciate that. So yeah, thank.

841
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 3: You, thank you. Thank you guys as well, you guys

842
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 3: are we're both like a total pleasure to talk to me.

843
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 3: Feel really comfortable. Thanks, thank you.

844
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, we will check out your YouTube and.

845
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been on it. I love it.

846
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 3: I know you said you watched it.

847
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true, I did.

848
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 3: I really like it.

849
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really fun to see her talk to the

850
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: other scientology.

851
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 3: In the other language.

852
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah language. I was like, what the fuck is happening?

853
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: But I yeah, We'll have a wonderful rest of your day.

854
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. You guys too.

855
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: Alrighty, So, Megan, I want to I just want to

856
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: kind of talk about.

857
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 4: Shelley for a second, because we who doesn't we talked.

858
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: We talked about Shelley a little bit in this episode,

859
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 2: and it sounds like Jenna kind of thinks that she

860
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 2: is alive and like technically safe, but probably under very

861
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: strict control. It was interesting to learn that Shelley was

862
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: like such a true believer in l Ron Hubbard herself,

863
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: like potentially even more than David Misscavage.

864
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 4: That was a shocker, which, just like.

865
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 2: You know, there are of course these ethical questions and

866
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 2: like gray areas always come up with cults because it's

867
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 2: like if you are being coerced into being under total

868
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: control and isolation, like obviously that is wrong, but like

869
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: if you also believe that you should be At what

870
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 2: point can the law you know, like, at what point

871
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: do he does the law have the power to be

872
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: like you must be removed if you don't necessarily think

873
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: that you should be.

874
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: Well, I don't understand the why they don't just PLoP

875
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: her in a dress, put her on a stage and

876
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: say I'm fine.

877
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 5: Yeah.

878
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 4: It is weird.

879
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: And and the police did, like the LAPD did, I

880
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: guess do an investigation confirm that she was safe at

881
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 2: least according to what they said to the media. They

882
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: saw her, you know, they're like, she's not missing, we know.

883
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 4: Where she is. I hope she's doing okay.

884
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah, me too. It's hard to imagine,

885
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: like just given what we learned about Jenna's X and

886
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: like how they kind of have people on watch all

887
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: the time or like being watched all the time, It's

888
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,879
Speaker 2: like hard to imagine what that like, how someone could

889
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 2: thrive in that environment. And like if someone is under

890
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: such heavy control, like how do you but they're but

891
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: they're if interrogated by the police, they're saying they're fine,

892
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 2: Like how do you navigate that?

893
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 4: That's so hard?

894
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I have no idea and I hope someday

895
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: we hear from her, because this is one mystery my

896
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: brain can't seem to let go of.

897
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: And you and the rest of the culture. Everyone wants

898
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: to know what's up with Shelly. Maybe time will tell,

899
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: maybe not, but I hope that, I hope that they

900
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: are in some ways, like anyone who is being held

901
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: under that extreme level of surveillance and control, like I

902
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: hope that somehow we crack down on that because that

903
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: should be illegal. Man.

904
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree obviously. All Right, Okay, thank you

905
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: guys so much for listening. We can't wait to see

906
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: you again next week, and as alays, remember to follow

907
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: your gut, watch out for red flats, and can never

908
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: ever trust me.

909
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

910
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

911
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

912
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,479
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

913
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

914
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

915
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

916
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm uh La Lola on Instagram and oh La Loola

917
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: on Twitter.

918
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

919
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

920
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 4: Remember to rate and review and spread the word