1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960
Speaker 1: All the media.

2
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. I'm here

3
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:09,880
Speaker 2: once again.

4
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 3: With it's James again.

5
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,160
Speaker 2: Free to talk to you again, James.

6
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, likewise glad to be here.

7
00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 2: You know, I spend a lot of time thinking about

8
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,520
Speaker 2: the world and how it works and all that jazz,

9
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,880
Speaker 2: and I assume you do as well.

10
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,599
Speaker 4: I do, yeah, yeah, increasingly worrying about the word.

11
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this place, this home is quite the puzzle. And

12
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 2: much like a puzzle, it has been carved up and

13
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 2: divided in so many different ways, sliced, labeled, ranked, and

14
00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 2: measured from all kinds of different angles. And that's really

15
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 2: what I'm interested in talking about today, the different ways

16
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 2: that we try to explain the differences we see on

17
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,480
Speaker 2: the global stage. So going from the concept of civilized

18
00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 2: and primitive, to the East and West binary, to the

19
00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,600
Speaker 2: imagined communities called nations, the clash of quote unquoteizations, to

20
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 2: the concept of first, second, and third worlds, to the

21
00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 2: development spectrum, to the global North and global cell, then

22
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 2: finally to the core and the periphery. So we have

23
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 2: a lot of ground to cover in this episode.

24
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, I really like this stuff, like as a historian,

25
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,039
Speaker 4: like we're always kind of forced into certain divisions, right,

26
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,319
Speaker 4: Like even when you apply to you with your funding, right,

27
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 4: like you're normally in like a geographical area, or like

28
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,280
Speaker 4: you're trying to shoehorn something that's just interesting into one

29
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 4: of these boxes that gets funding. And I think like

30
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 4: often that impacts like how we see the world, So

31
00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,560
Speaker 4: we have to write with that goal.

32
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,399
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, I find the way that we approach the

33
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 2: telling of history so fascinating And in another life maybe

34
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,240
Speaker 2: I would have been a historian.

35
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,120
Speaker 4: I never I can recommend it. Yeah, yeah, it's I

36
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 4: enjoy the doing of history. It's the doing of academia

37
00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 4: that I don't enjoy so much.

38
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 2: So I suppose as historian, I'm going to ask you

39
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 2: a discomforting question. Great, would you consider yourself civilized or primitive?

40
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 1: Oh?

41
00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,000
Speaker 3: That's a fun one.

42
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,760
Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, I don't like that binary because

43
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 4: I think it's it's a value statement, right, And I think,

44
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 4: like James Scott talks about this, Actually, this is a

45
00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 4: really interesting I've had this. James Scott right talks about

46
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 4: the idea of people who exist outside of the state

47
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 4: being labeled as primitive by the state. It's in the

48
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 4: art of not being governed, and that that's the sort

49
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 4: of the narrative there. The inherent message is that the

50
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 4: state is the final and superior form of human organizing

51
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,919
Speaker 4: and people who have chosen to exist outside it are

52
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,880
Speaker 4: not because they chose to, but because they haven't made

53
00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,760
Speaker 4: it there yet. And of course Scott problematized that suggests

54
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 4: it maybe it's a choice, not a failure to accede

55
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,000
Speaker 4: to that civilization. And it's a concept that like young

56
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,440
Speaker 4: Burmese fighters have goed.

57
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 3: Back to me. I don't think they're aware of James C.

58
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,119
Speaker 4: Scott if I'm being honest, but they they will say

59
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 4: to me, like when, because when they left the cities

60
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,160
Speaker 4: to live with the ethnic revolutionary organizations there, they had

61
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 4: always been told that the reason those people lived outside

62
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 4: of the Burmese state was because they were primitive, violent.

63
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,959
Speaker 4: But then they came to live and fight alongside them,

64
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 4: and they were like, no, these are a family. They

65
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 4: were brothers and sisters and siblings, and like they want

66
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 4: the same thing as us, Like they're not primitive, they

67
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 4: just don't want the state. So I guess in that sense,

68
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 4: I would want to be labeled as primitive too. I

69
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 4: think the primitive people are doing cool shit and then

70
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:40,320
Speaker 4: the civilized people are not.

71
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's one of I think one

72
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 2: of the one during global binaries, one of the oldest.

73
00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,040
Speaker 2: You know, you'd hear that sign, that kind of juxtaposition

74
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 2: or civilized and primitive or civilized and barbarians. Yeah, you know,

75
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,640
Speaker 2: in ancient role you see that distinction between the civilized

76
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 2: Roman citizens and the barberia and other.

77
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:01,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

78
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 2: And in that instance, and in a lot of instances

79
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,240
Speaker 2: as used as this ideological tool just a superiority, definitely.

80
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:09,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

81
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 4: Like I think we have to be really careful as

82
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,360
Speaker 4: his story about these assumptions that we make. It'says we'll

83
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 4: have to make a lot of assumptions about revolutions too,

84
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,680
Speaker 4: And I would wager that I've attended more revolutions and

85
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 4: many of my academic colleagues, and I think many of

86
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 4: those are grounded in the truths that people accept as

87
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 4: truths without ever testing them. And like, I think this

88
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,719
Speaker 4: sort of civilized barbarian one, it's kind of the same

89
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 4: like that.

90
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a classic one. I mean, do you know

91
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: where the word barbaria and even comes from?

92
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,839
Speaker 3: Isn't it the language?

93
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:40,040
Speaker 4: Thing?

94
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 3: Like, because I didn't speak is it Latin? They were

95
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 3: just going like bar Ba, is that right?

96
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's because of what you know, Rome did did

97
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 2: this all the time, where they just borrowed whole sale

98
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,839
Speaker 2: from what the Greeks were doing. Yeah, so in Greek

99
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,760
Speaker 2: Barbaros meant anyone who did not speak Greek. Okay, that's

100
00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 2: the rum, and just kind of took that and expanded

101
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,280
Speaker 2: as he to talk about anybody who wasn't on their

102
00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 2: whole wave of urban planning and you know, coudified legal systems,

103
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 2: the philosophy, the education they are to all of that stuff.

104
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

105
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Barbarians didn't have those those refinements, right, Yeah,

106
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,679
Speaker 2: you know, but of course the relationship between the tours

107
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,000
Speaker 2: is not so simple, right because the later on in

108
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 2: Roman history, as you'd know, Barbarians quote unquote, were incorporated

109
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: slowly into the state and became very useful armies and

110
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 2: a reserve full of labor and all these different things

111
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 2: for what Roman was trying to do with the expartnership.

112
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and luckily contemporary American right has been very normal

113
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 4: about that and it isn't using that for like it's

114
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 4: sort of eugenic eugenic agenda right.

115
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,200
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, very very much eugenics vibes these days.

116
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, where my father lives is right on the border

117
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 4: between England and Scotland and you can visit Hadrian's Wall.

118
00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 3: I rode my bike all along it a couple of

119
00:05:59,520 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 3: years ago.

120
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 2: Oh ask.

121
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

122
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:05,520
Speaker 4: It's like a fun edge of empire kind of thought experiment,

123
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,400
Speaker 4: like you beyond this line of the barbarians or uncivilized

124
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 4: people today, it's like unremarkable, you know, like like it's

125
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:13,880
Speaker 4: literally it.

126
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,280
Speaker 3: It keeps some people sheep in their fields at points

127
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 3: along like.

128
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 4: A yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, like some stones kind of

129
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 4: piled on top of each other and it's kind of

130
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 4: an unremarkable novelty. But it's funny to think that at

131
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 4: one point there was this binary world, right, and they

132
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,240
Speaker 4: felt that they the outside was so dangerous to them

133
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 4: that they had to provide a physical barrier, something we're

134
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:38,120
Speaker 4: still doing.

135
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,599
Speaker 2: Indeed, and as we're speaking of walls, by the way,

136
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 2: this reminds me of another major empire where this sort

137
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 2: of dichotomy was a curtain. You know, it wasn't just

138
00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 2: taking place in the Mediterranean build you had and of

139
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 2: course ancient China, this whole identity constructed around these moral

140
00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:02,360
Speaker 2: and cultural and political ideals. Had the whole Confucianism Taoism

141
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,039
Speaker 2: a legalist thought or shape and what it meant to be,

142
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 2: you know, conducting yourself properly and in a civilized manner.

143
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 2: And so those who did not ascribe to those ideals

144
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 2: would have been people who were labeled barbarians.

145
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

146
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 2: Often the people on the other side of the Great Wall.

147
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 4: Yeah we are the United States is literally doing the

148
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,280
Speaker 4: exact same thing, right, Like it's we're building a giant

149
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 4: wall and labeling other ring the people on the other

150
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 4: side of it.

151
00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you definitely see the genealogy there. Yeah, but I

152
00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 2: think there's a closer genealogy we could draw upon for

153
00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 2: that particular reference though, which is how later European empires

154
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 2: would appropriate the Roman civilized barbarian binary to justify their assimilation,

155
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,240
Speaker 2: extermination and colonialism.

156
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 4: Definitely one of the things I like to do, even

157
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 4: with you know, the United States and it's in formal empire, right,

158
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 4: Like I love to show my students cartoons, like political cartoons,

159
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 4: like there's one of the White Man's Burden, which like

160
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 4: distill you know, sometimes the patriots worth a thousand words,

161
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 4: but it distills that whole binary so well in a

162
00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 4: way that seems like repugnant to most of my students today.

163
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 4: I guess, I don't know, maybe maybe folks are moving

164
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,200
Speaker 4: back that way, but like the imagery and the distinction

165
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,240
Speaker 4: between the way or even like Lewis and Clark when

166
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,080
Speaker 4: they're addressing the indigenous people they meet and calling them children,

167
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,680
Speaker 4: right like like this this binary distinction is so it's

168
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 4: so apparent, and like, I don't know, it seems so outlandish,

169
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 4: I think to most folks today maybe, But then we

170
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,040
Speaker 4: do similar things, I guess in uh, you know it

171
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,000
Speaker 4: just in a slightly more subtle way sometimes.

172
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean when you look at what was

173
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 2: taking place with the Enlightenment and that whole developments of

174
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,599
Speaker 2: this particular order, it steeped in these particular values with

175
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 2: the European culture was the ideal standard, and everything that

176
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 2: did not measure up to that standard was barbarical, primative.

177
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 2: It's just that has never really gone away, you know,

178
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,280
Speaker 2: and it continues to be used to justify the domination

179
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 2: of Western powers, particularly in the way that they've instilled

180
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,360
Speaker 2: these European norms and practices across the world. When it

181
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,080
Speaker 2: comes to things like relation to the land when it

182
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 2: comes to things like the divisions between people, between genders,

183
00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:41,040
Speaker 2: all these things, all these attitudes that are now so widespread,

184
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,960
Speaker 2: originated from in part, this elevation of one above the other.

185
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,400
Speaker 2: And speaking of I mentioned the word western there, and

186
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 2: that's really another way that we've sort of maintained this

187
00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 2: binary in a different court of paint. It's not quite

188
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:06,560
Speaker 2: the same. So there's this sort of lingering framework of

189
00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 2: the notion of the East and the West. Right in

190
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 2: the ancient times, it was China versus Rome. These days

191
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 2: it's probably China versus America. Yeah, China really is that old?

192
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

193
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And okay, this is probably a very probably

194
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,199
Speaker 2: very gen z reference for me to make. But I

195
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 2: don't know if you've seen these edits circulated on social

196
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:35,920
Speaker 2: media of the Chinese president Chi chen Ping going like

197
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 2: buzzer Beijing, and there's like a whole bunch of like

198
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 2: skyscrapers and like like hardcore like electronic music edited to

199
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 2: show like all these advanced ones, and people in the

200
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,600
Speaker 2: comments are saying things like be China do nothing win.

201
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 3: I I have not seen those.

202
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely dating me a little bit in

203
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 2: terms of my social media diet. But yeah, just seeing

204
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,000
Speaker 2: the dynamic between China, or between the East and the West,

205
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,160
Speaker 2: the Orient and the occident, to use an older term,

206
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 2: it's just another way that we've created this sort of

207
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,240
Speaker 2: boundary between people that either on one side or the other,

208
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,600
Speaker 2: there's a necessary tension between the two. You know. This

209
00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 2: concept of the orient and Orientalism is something that it

210
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 2: would side identified famously as something that was constructed by

211
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 2: the West as an exotic, irrational, decadent, and dangerous place.

212
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,120
Speaker 2: And so that whole dualistic narrative was then put into

213
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 2: the imperial project to Legitimizeie domination and to position the

214
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 2: East as a passive subject without a voice of their

215
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 2: own and constant need of Western intervention and guidance. So

216
00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,480
Speaker 2: this West becomes this sort of stage for modernity and

217
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 2: science and region and progress, this whole idea of the

218
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 2: protagonist of history and the orients the East. They're the primitive,

219
00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 2: I guess side of that binary. Although unlike the civilized

220
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 2: primitive binary or civilized barbarian binary of old I think

221
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 2: while there could have been racial components to it in

222
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,079
Speaker 2: the past, this one is more explicitly racial and geographic

223
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 2: in its division, because I mean in ancient room, anybody

224
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 2: could essentially become a Roman citizen. You know, it wasn't

225
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,160
Speaker 2: necessarily racially, you know, pure area and sense that a

226
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,440
Speaker 2: lot of new Nazis and stuff today like to look

227
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,280
Speaker 2: back at that period as you had a quieter diversity

228
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 2: of phenotypes in the Roman Empire. Yeah, but you know,

229
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 2: when you come to this orient and occident dichotomy, it's

230
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 2: very much racialized. You know, a lot of times when

231
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,880
Speaker 2: people talk about the Western world, it really tends to

232
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,839
Speaker 2: be I guess a more politically correct way of saying

233
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,280
Speaker 2: the white wood. Yes, at least in my observation.

234
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely, that's often the subtext.

235
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 2: Because I mean that's something I've always struggled with pinning

236
00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,080
Speaker 2: down right, because why isn't Brazil considered part of the West?

237
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, why isn't Mexico considered part of the West?

238
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,240
Speaker 3: Right? What are we west of? Like?

239
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,079
Speaker 4: Like what it's not even it's not the western hemisphere

240
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 4: like as you say.

241
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Western say is more straightforward, but is

242
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,720
Speaker 2: it because there are too many colored people? Yeah, in

243
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,559
Speaker 2: Mexico and in Brazil.

244
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 4: It seems to be right, Like it's not even countries

245
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 4: strongly either from Western Europe was strongly impacted by settler

246
00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,360
Speaker 4: colonialism from Western Europe, because the entirety of Latin America

247
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:43,679
Speaker 4: is impact.

248
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:44,920
Speaker 2: And they should be included, but they're not.

249
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:45,440
Speaker 3: That they're not.

250
00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and it yeah, it's I've always struggled with

251
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 4: that one, other than get neoliberal capitalists white countries, it's

252
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,320
Speaker 4: it's what people don't want to say.

253
00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,440
Speaker 2: And Japan sometimes yeah, yeah, Japan, strangely enough, yeah, yeah,

254
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:02,840
Speaker 2: an member of the club.

255
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, or like sometimes also not Spain. This is a

256
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 4: particular like bug Bury guess of Spanish history.

257
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:10,439
Speaker 2: Really, I don't think I've seen that one.

258
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, for years, like literally you would be excluded from

259
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 4: European history, like like Africa starts at the Pyrenees.

260
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 3: It's a sort of phrase that that's hilarious.

261
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I guess it compounded because Spain was so

262
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 4: isolated under Franco. Right, but like yeah, this they called

263
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 4: it the black legend that like Spain does not belong

264
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 4: to Europe and and it's not again it's racialized, right,

265
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 4: it's because Spain had this exchange with the Muslim world, right,

266
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,560
Speaker 4: and like that that culture deeply impacted Spanish culture, and

267
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 4: even after the Conquista, it's like it's like, you know,

268
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 4: the French historians were just like, nah, you guys are tainted,

269
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,360
Speaker 4: like you you don't get to come back.

270
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 2: It's kind of a similar sitribution with the territories the

271
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 2: former Artsman Empire as well, technically part to Europe and

272
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 2: yet you know, maligned in some way. Yeah, yeah, a

273
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,280
Speaker 2: little less than Still, it's like y'all have too much,

274
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,120
Speaker 2: too much Turkish to watch Muslim influence.

275
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 4: You'all got a Yeah, you need like a thousand years

276
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 4: to decompress before we let you back in.

277
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, honestly, if the Pope wasn't based in Italy,

278
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 2: I'm sure Italy would have a similar dynamic. I mean,

279
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,280
Speaker 2: Italy is a recent construction right in terms of as

280
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 2: a country. Ye, but only look at the two Sicilies,

281
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,200
Speaker 2: for example, that was under North African rule for a

282
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 2: significant period of its history. But let me not get

283
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,400
Speaker 2: too far off track. One day. One more tangent, and

284
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 2: that is I'm far from being a dentist by any means,

285
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,240
Speaker 2: or a maurist or anything of that show. But there

286
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:08,800
Speaker 2: is something to be said for the way that the

287
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 2: East of the Orient has been sidelined, marginalized to treat

288
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,120
Speaker 2: it us lesser than for so long, and now they're

289
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,560
Speaker 2: at a point where their geopolitical sway has to be respected. Yeah,

290
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 2: I'm not a rooting for them by any means. I'm

291
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 2: not one of those people is like, yeah, multipolar world.

292
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,000
Speaker 2: I would rather we have no poles, you know, as

293
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 2: an anarchist.

294
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do know what you mean.

295
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 2: But it's like it's a bit of shodding for it,

296
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:36,800
Speaker 2: I guess.

297
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, you know, ironic in a

298
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 4: but yeah, not necessarily in a good way. Like I've

299
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,640
Speaker 4: just seen Jijienping meeting with Minan Plang, the dictator of

300
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,280
Speaker 4: me and mar today, and I'm like, I'm not excited

301
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 4: for that pole of the world.

302
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 2: Not at all, not at all. Yeah. I feel the

303
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:03,360
Speaker 2: same way about the way that the Sahel Federation has

304
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 2: kind of kicked out France. I'm like, yeah, stickets of France,

305
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 2: but also military hunters, you.

306
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, like the rebranded Wagner Core now.

307
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 2: Like yeah, and the collaboration close collaborations Russia. But you know,

308
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,879
Speaker 2: a lot of this thing is really a lot of

309
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,719
Speaker 2: these relationships, these geopidical relationships are so opportunistic. It's all

310
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 2: opportunists on yeah, end of the day, they don't really

311
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,440
Speaker 2: they're not really necessarily guided by principles.

312
00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like the difference I guess between like, for instance,

313
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 4: I you know, I've been thinking a lot about anarchist

314
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,760
Speaker 4: at war, right, and people go and fight in other

315
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 4: people's to depend other people, right, like like the people

316
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 4: who went to Rajava to fight, people who went to

317
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 4: Miama to fight. Like there's a difference between doing something

318
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 4: out of a sense of solidarity and doing something out

319
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 4: of root opportunism, and like that always shows itself in

320
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 4: the end.

321
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the work groups of involvement in Africa

322
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 2: is the most blatant capitalist tra vun opportunism.

323
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,119
Speaker 4: These people are not there for the anti colonials that

324
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,920
Speaker 4: are like standing with the oppressed peoples of the world. Yeah, yeah,

325
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,280
Speaker 4: like watching the Battle of Algiers and setting off to

326
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 4: immediately liberate the people of.

327
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 2: Africa literal mercenaries, right yeah. Yeah, But getting back onto

328
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: the main topic, talking about all these ways we divvy

329
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 2: up the world. Out of the linguistic and cultural and

330
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 2: geographical differences that we observe around us, came this concept

331
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 2: of nations, right, nation as an idea also came out

332
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,639
Speaker 2: of the European imagine nation. It's commonly defined and it's

333
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,800
Speaker 2: USA worldwide today, But it's commonly defined as a large

334
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,320
Speaker 2: community of people who share common identity, often through language, culture, history,

335
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 2: and sometimes ethnicity, then who usually inhabit a specific geographic

336
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,399
Speaker 2: territory with its own political organization. The comminations without states

337
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,840
Speaker 2: as simply a culturalmmunity force. People feel a collective long

338
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 2: and then share that snee. But nations are as we know,

339
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,640
Speaker 2: mostly tied up with states today, hence nation being used

340
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 2: as a synonym for country.

341
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of my bug bears.

342
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 4: I guess is an academic like I tried to develop

343
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 4: this concept of Catalan nationalism that like at the time

344
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 4: was inherently anti fascist. I think I was trying to

345
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 4: be like, it ain't now like this it's a very

346
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,480
Speaker 4: Catalan right now. And yeah, I do still find it

347
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 4: hard when people say nation is the the state, especially Americans, Like,

348
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 4: it's very hard, right because state is like a subset

349
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 4: of the state here, like the sort of military division

350
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 4: of the federal state. So it can be hard to

351
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 4: explain those differences.

352
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 2: And as you mentioned, this sort of way that that

353
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: Catalan nationalism has shifted. Really, I think gets to the

354
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 2: whole weakness of the nation idea. So Benick Anderson famously

355
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: called nations imaginedmmunities because the community exists as a collective fantasy.

356
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: You know, they imagine a deep comradeship with people who

357
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,200
Speaker 2: they've never met. Yeah, and this fantasy has boundaries not

358
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 2: just about who is included, but also famously who is excluded.

359
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: And this fantasy is not necessarily something that is automatic

360
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: or natural as we tend to see it today. But

361
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: it's really the rise of things like print capitalism, with

362
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: the mass production of books and newspapers, and that's what

363
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: really shaped the standardization and formalization of these imagined communities,

364
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 2: through the creation of like common cultural reference and a

365
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: shared sense of history. Yeah. And then of course you

366
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: had the nation idea of further being developed by liberal

367
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 2: revolutions and through the shared experience of colonial rule. You know,

368
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: we're subject populations with mobilized nationalism to claim self determination.

369
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely like it.

370
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 4: I'm sure I'm trying to remember borrowed this from someone,

371
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 4: but the idea of like identity entrepreneurs is what I like.

372
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 4: Like it's when religion loses its claim on universal truth,

373
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 4: specifically in Europe. That's like a market for identity that

374
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 4: is open. And the creation of nations is like, to

375
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,119
Speaker 4: my mind, like a bourgeois project, right Like, it's an

376
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,479
Speaker 4: entrepreneurial endeavor that they seek to create something, a benefit

377
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 4: from it and like it. Yet to a degree that

378
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 4: turned against them, it's still an entrepreneurial endeavor, right Like. Still,

379
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 4: you could be creating a nation which wants to kick

380
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 4: France out of Morocco, right that that nation may not

381
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 4: have space for everyone who inhabits that territory of Morocco.

382
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 3: Like, it's still it's a sort of for some people.

383
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: Construct absolutely absolutely, I think the elite intellectual current of

384
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 2: a nationalist movements can go under stated. You know, oftentimes

385
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: what stirs up the masses toward that specific direction, because

386
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: I mean, the masses will revolt against their conditions, but

387
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: what sort of directs it in that national independence direction?

388
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: And this concept of nation is tends to be that

389
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 2: sort of you lead into actual current. I often look

390
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: at the history of and Tobago as a reference point.

391
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: See that's where I come from. The whole process of

392
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 2: nation building is always ongoing, and we are in a

393
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: position where there's an effort, there's a very strong efforts

394
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: to both push for a nation building but also recognize

395
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 2: our divergent pasts, you know, because we have this sort

396
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: of almost equal in population Indo Trinadian and Afro Trianadian populations,

397
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: and then a mixed population as well, and then you

398
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 2: have some Chinese and Syria and Lebanese and Venezuela and

399
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: and Filipino and all these different groups come into Trinidad,

400
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: and because of that colonial past, their tensions is between

401
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: those groups and things are still play out to this day.

402
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: But while tensions are played out, there's also an effort

403
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: to construct a unity through an allegiance to the nation

404
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: of Trinan Tobago to create a sense of national identity,

405
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: and as a very young country, it's still quite difficult

406
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 2: to do. I can imagine, especially in the United States,

407
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: it might have been a similar situation where you have

408
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: all these different European populations and different populations from around

409
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: the world who are in the US and there hasn't

410
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: quite yet been a fully built up American identity yet,

411
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,479
Speaker 2: and so a lot of those tensions are still kind

412
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 2: of playing out, and so it takes a couple of

413
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: generations for there to be a sense of American identity

414
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: that arises out of that. Yeah, definitely turnedad being one

415
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: a younger colony and two only recently becoming independent in

416
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, it hasn't had enough time yet to,

417
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 2: I suppose, develop that patriotism that America is so known for.

418
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: And so you still see a lot of people who

419
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 2: continue to have allegiance to the ancestry, to the heritage,

420
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 2: even before they have any sort of sense of connection

421
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 2: to the country. Concept of truingad.

422
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, the American would have interesting because the people who

423
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 4: did the American Revolution might often call themselves English right like.

424
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 4: And it's this kind of post hoc nationalism that has applied,

425
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 4: right like, they did begin constructing a nation, but after

426
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 4: they after they gained the apparatus of the state, right like.

427
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 4: And sometimes they'll talk about their freedoms in terms of

428
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 4: English freedoms, which they themselves are not granted, right that

429
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 4: they don't have the same freedoms as English people in

430
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: England when they are a British colony. This concept of

431
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 4: freedom they will elucidate like it, and like so much

432
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 4: of it is based on like English common law, right,

433
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: they didn't necessarily see themselves as distinct. That comes later.

434
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: And like the US one is interesting because they have

435
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: to develop this kind of civic nationalism much. I guess

436
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 4: France does that two of course, but like France, probably

437
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 4: the og there. But like this idea, like you've subscribed

438
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 4: to these ideas. Therefore you're an American because they're like this,

439
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 4: this nation constructed by people from all over Europe. For

440
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 4: the most part, the phrasing is universal, but the implementation

441
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 4: is not. Right, it's also a country where people own

442
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 4: other people.

443
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I mean, like I was saying earlier,

444
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: it does help in our struggle for autonomy and independence

445
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: from cluding on rule to have this construct the nation, right,

446
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: but it also obscures a lot of the real material

447
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: divisions in society, you know between the with in class

448
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: and the elites. And so you have this national identity

449
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: that is constructed by intellectual and you know, economic elites,

450
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 2: and it's overlaid onto a population that does not really

451
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 2: have us see in that construction. And so these nationalist

452
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: projects will try to downplay or suppress differences in conflicts

453
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: and as part of why nationalism so often lends itself

454
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: to fascist well, because fascism is an outgrowth of this

455
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: idea of nation where they promote this vision of national

456
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: unity and stifle class conflict and create a collusion of

457
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 2: classes that push us aside of people who don't fit

458
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: within their concept of the nation.

459
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

460
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I often think, like when I'm talking to my

461
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: undergrads about nation, like the most distinct where I can say,

462
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 4: is like the salient we through both space and time, right,

463
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 4: Like it's the people you identify with, it's the us,

464
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 4: And fascism weaponizes us against the rest of humanity or

465
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: against us mostly like against escapegoat group who become them, right,

466
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 4: and then like the nation is for us, the state

467
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 4: is for us, it's not for them. Thus they must

468
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 4: be exterminated exactly. Is an obvious outgrowth of nationalism.

469
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: Hence xenophobia, hence anti semitism, anti blackness, anti indigeneity, all

470
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: these prejudices. I mean, And that's the thing about nationalism.

471
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily consistent because you'll say, all people from

472
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: this land, you know, we should desay to be united,

473
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: except for those people who are also from this land.

474
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: They don't get to come, you know, they are perpetual outsiders.

475
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: They don't share the true culture. They'ren't part of our destiny.

476
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: So even if they're legally citizens or legally a long

477
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: term residents, or they haven't residents there for a long

478
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 2: time the entire lives generations, or if the case may be,

479
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: they don't count. They're outside forever.

480
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they can never assent to like a sort

481
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 4: of higher status of being one of us. British people

482
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: like to mobilize this one a lot, right, Like you

483
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 4: can be British.

484
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: But you can never be English.

485
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

486
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 4: I forget who coined that coined the phrase cricket nationalism,

487
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: but it's just particularly kind of ridiculous, Like, oh, if

488
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 4: if there's a Test match between Britain and Pakistan and

489
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 4: Britain and Trinidad Tobago, who do you support? Like is that,

490
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: like are you really going to make that the core

491
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 4: of your national identity? Like the cene qua non of

492
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 4: being British is like which flag you take to the

493
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 4: cricket match, Like it's particularly ridiculous and if it doesn't

494
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 4: reflect exclusion, right, people aren't taking their flags to the

495
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 4: cricket match because like that's the core of the entity.

496
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 4: They're just like, yeah, well kind of I get treated

497
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 4: differently because of my ethnic boundary, like makeup right ethnic presentation.

498
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 4: So I guess you guys don't like me, so like

499
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: they'll be funny when we kick your ass cricket, like

500
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: it's the cause of arrow points in the wrong direction.

501
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: I guess I can imagine I will not be bringing

502
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: any flags to any cricket match because I don't attend

503
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: cricket matches. I'm not too big of a fan of cricket.

504
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: I can't be doing it.

505
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: Stick to my football, and I say football in the

506
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: international sense.

507
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 4: Good, yeah, yeah, I can't stand around long enough to

508
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: play cricket, to be honest.

509
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: As we're talking about national liberation, these struggles often took

510
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 2: place in the context of the Cold War, right, which

511
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: is where we get this other sense of this other

512
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: framework for divving up the world now. Growing up, I

513
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: was always told that, you know, tran Tobago is a

514
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: third World country. I had a social studies textbook, and

515
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: I taught first world, second world, third world. But I

516
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: didn't teach first world, second world, third world in the

517
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: context of the Cold War, because I grew up in

518
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 2: a post Cold War world, and these terms came from

519
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: the Cool War but persisted after the Cold War. So

520
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: what happened, I was taught we are third world because

521
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: we are still developing. We're not at that intermediate stage

522
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: development where we could say that the second world, and

523
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 2: we're not at that first world level of development like America, right,

524
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: And that's a smaller side for me. But I've always

525
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: found it mildly irritating when I see people use this

526
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: famous social media catchphrase or America is a third World

527
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: country in a Gucci belt.

528
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 3: I haven't seen now on the yet. That's annoying.

529
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen similar sentiments, this idea, Oh, America's

530
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: third world, American slid world.

531
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have.

532
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: Like, it's just annoying to me yet. So one, it

533
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: completely divorces the concert of the third world from its

534
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: actual origins and to it. Also, I think reflects that

535
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: kind of a blindness to what's happened in the rest

536
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: of the world, in the countries that are actually considered

537
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: the third world, and the difference is between them, you know,

538
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: for everything that we can express frustrations about in the US,

539
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: anybody in the third world, I think, and I've when

540
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: I when I've visited the US. I've seen it from

541
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: my own eyes. You know, there's still things there that

542
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: Americans might take for granted that are just not that

543
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: would never be taken for granted in other contexts. And

544
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: I see, of course the division see in America's version

545
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: of the First World versus you know, some of the

546
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: European Social Democracy's version of the First World. So I

547
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: get that frustration, you know, the lack of free health

548
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: care and that kind of thing, investment in infrastructure and

549
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: all that. But let me just get into the background

550
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: behind the tomb. Right as we step into the Cool War,

551
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: you have this concept of the three world model that

552
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: came after World War Two. The pre war status cool

553
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: was over and you had new conflicts on the horizon.

554
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: And so the film First World originally described the capitalist

555
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: block led by the United States and Western Europe, where

556
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: capitalist markets, liberal democracy, and economic progress was celebrated. And

557
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: then you had the Second World block, which referred to

558
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: the communist bloc led by the Soviet Union, where what

559
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: I would consider state and centrally planned economies shape their societies.

560
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: So in the First World they had countries like the US, Australia,

561
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: Africa today might be shocking you know, Iran was even

562
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: considered part of the First World Block during the Cool War.

563
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: That might be shockinged now because when we think of

564
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: some of these countries like, oh, those are Third World countries.

565
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: Those are undeveloped countries. They aren't at the developed level

566
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: of the West yet. But in the context in which

567
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: the three World model originated, these were countries that explicitly

568
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: aligned themselves with the policies of the United States and

569
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: its allies as capitalist nations against the Soviet Bloc. And

570
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: the Soviet Bloc you had, of course, countries like China

571
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: and Vietnam, Laos, Ethiopia, Yemen, Huba, all these different countries

572
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: align themselves explicitly with the Soviet Union. Then the Third

573
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: World and where the third will concept came in was

574
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: with all the countries that stood against picking aside. Yeah,

575
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: a lot of these were former colonies and nations that

576
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: chose not to side completely with either and to this

577
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: whole concept, this whole idea of the non aligned movement.

578
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: It really kicked off thanks to the joining of the

579
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: Indian Prime Minister, the Kenaian President, the Indonesian President, and

580
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: the President of the United Arab Republic alongside Yugoslavia, and

581
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: so all these countries who all had very different economic

582
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: arrange ones. Yugoslavia famously was kind of doing its own thing,

583
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: compared to a lot of the other countries associated with socialism,

584
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: India and Ghana, they were also kind of doing their

585
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: own thing, kind of a mix Trancebagos also considered part

586
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: of the non aligned movement. And so these classifications at

587
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: the time, these were geopolitical and all political ideologies, not

588
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: necessarily economic development. So technically speaking, the term shouldn't even

589
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: be relevant US today. I mean, the Cold War of

590
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: the twentieth century is over. But over time the narrative

591
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: began to twist. You know, so because you didn't pick

592
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: a side, you didn't pick the red team or the

593
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: blue team, you didn't pick the first will of the

594
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: Second World, this narrative developed where or you didn't pick

595
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: a side, you're politically independent, so you're poor, you're chaotic,

596
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: you're a failed state, all these different things. And of

597
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: course there were incidents in part influenced of course by

598
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: state actors in the US and state actors in the

599
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: Soviet client block would have contributed to this outcome. But

600
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,919
Speaker 2: over time you get this sense of or the third

601
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: world is failure. All these states were trying different paths

602
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: of development, different approaches to governance from either of the

603
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 2: two camps, mixed hybrid approaches, but in the end this

604
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: just got them stuck with the label of underdevelopment and

605
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: at having them being seen as last. Now today people

606
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: don't use food world as much as they use developing,

607
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: at least in you know, the more above board discourse.

608
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: But that division also has its own implications, right, the

609
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: developed countries versus the developing countries. It's kind of a

610
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: softer sorts of version of the same thing.

611
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of gentler, Yeah, the same shit.

612
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: What those terms do implicitly, it's like, you know what,

613
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 2: you're fish in water, so you can't recognize water. It's

614
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 2: hard to recognize these things, these ideological impulses when we're

615
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: submerged in them. If you take a step back, you realize, oh,

616
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: these terms developed and developing they have very heavy implications.

617
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: And the implication is that there's a single linear path

618
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: to progress modeled after Western capitalism, that all societies are

619
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: progressing towards through industrialization, through consumerism, through the ALMIGHTYGP growth

620
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: and so development of your your underdevelopment becomes a tool

621
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: of intervention. It becomes a way to mask imperial interests

622
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: with the sort of the nair of oh, we're just

623
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: kind of helping you out.

624
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: You know.

625
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 2: It's like we move from your savage you're a primitive,

626
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: so you're just not developed yet. But theory will help

627
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: you out. And that's how you get the whole sort

628
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: of IMF and World Bank introductions of models of debts

629
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: and policy conditions and metrics and all these different things

630
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 2: to sort of shape these countries into client states, states

631
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: that can be used to further Western development. The Cold

632
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: War is technically over now, as I said, so I

633
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 2: suppose we've reached the end of history, as the famous

634
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: saying goes, but not exactly. In the early nineteen nineties,

635
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: Samuel Huntington came up with a thesis to explain the

636
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: conflicts that we define the post Cold War world and

637
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: as we entered into the twenty fifth century, and so

638
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: he argued that the future of global conflict would not

639
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: be defined by competing ideologies or economic systems, but by

640
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: cultural fault lines. In his nineteen ninety three article in

641
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 2: Foreign Affairs, which Lates expanded into his nineteen ninety six

642
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: book The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the

643
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 2: World Order, Huntington predicted that the primary source of conflict

644
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: in a new era would be between distinct civilizations. His

645
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: model would have pointed to clashes between the West and

646
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: other groups Islamic nations, the Confucian East, and of course

647
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: set up this sense that the West is this pinnacle

648
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: of rationality and modernity, and all these others are in

649
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: competition with the fantastic, amazing West. And I always like

650
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: to call out some of these strange ways that he

651
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: has divided the world. Right, So sub Saharan Africa is

652
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: all grouped up into the African camp, all of North Africa,

653
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: the Middle East, into West Asia, all of that is

654
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: considered part of the Islamic civilization. Forget all the different

655
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: between any of them. By the way, Indonesia it's also

656
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: part of the Islamic block. You have the Sinic or

657
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: the Confucian block that includes China, both Koreas, Taiwan, and Vietnam,

658
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: except for the parts of China that are under the

659
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: Buddhist camp, such as Tibet. So Tibet is kind of

660
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: carved up on its own as its own camp. Mongolia

661
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: is also under the Buddhist camp. Thailand and all these

662
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: others in Southeast Asia considered part of the Buddhist camp.

663
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

664
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: And then you have the Latin American block, which is

665
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: everybody part of Latin America and even people who are

666
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: not technically Latin America and are kind of swept in there.

667
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: And I'm going to be a by the base of

668
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: the map that I saw on the Wikipedia article on

669
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: this subject.

670
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: Ye, I found that map.

671
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: Now, it's some very bizarre divisions and ways to cut

672
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: up this world. They have the Western world versus the

673
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: Orthodox world, which includes Kazakhstan and Greece and Ukraine and

674
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: Russia all under that civilizational banner. Yeah. The Philippines is

675
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: somehow part Islamic, part Western, and part Sinic. It's a

676
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: very unusual blend.

677
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 3: Yeah.

678
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 4: And then he's just got like Japan it's just hanging

679
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 4: out there by itself.

680
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, especially pan It's kind

681
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: of it's a one thing. Yeah.

682
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 4: It just literally says Japanese. I've forgotten about that. And

683
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: then he goes on to freak out about like the

684
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: like Latin world as he sees it, like fucking dividing

685
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 4: the United States, right, Like in his his is it

686
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 4: called like who we are or where we are or something?

687
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 4: His book about migration in the United States. M it

688
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 4: was after clash of civilizations he wrote this book about

689
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: like how the like I think I don't quite remember

690
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 4: how he terms it, Like does he use Latino or

691
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 4: Hispanic or something else, but like that that that population

692
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 4: increasing in the United States will like divide the to

693
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 4: day too, too fundamentally opposed civilizations.

694
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he has some interesting compulsions. Yeah, and unfortunately

695
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 2: his thesis found its voice following the events of nine

696
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: to eleven partitions and media. These people were taking his

697
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 2: ideas to kind of justify the war and terror that

698
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: would unfold. It also creates sort of cultural device that

699
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: settle into place at home will not create, but shape

700
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: those cultural divides as you create the sense of oh,

701
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: if there's if we're experiencing a clash of civilizations right now,

702
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: then this flood couldn't quote of people from another civilization

703
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 2: is a threat to the invasion. It's something that needs

704
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 2: to be targeted and fought against. And so in a sense,

705
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: his class civilizations is kind of a repackaging of a

706
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 2: lot of the binaries and divisions we've spoken about before.

707
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 2: You have elements of nationalism, you have elements of civilized

708
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: versus warber, the evelements of East and West, the Cold

709
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: War dichotomies. All of that kind of comes together in

710
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: this neat package. Finally, we enter the twenty first century,

711
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: and they are two very popular ways that we now

712
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 2: categorize the world. People tend to use the phrases Global

713
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 2: North and Global South as a softer or more politically

714
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: correct alternative to develop developing or foods in third world.

715
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: It's considered less loaded, more neutral sounding, and it's originally

716
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: popularized via UN frameworks and the brand line, which is

717
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 2: done in nineteen eighty, which drew a literal line across

718
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: the globe, separating the wealthier North from the poorer South.

719
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: To be clear, though, despite the geographical language, it's not

720
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: literally about hemispheres. Australia is considered part of the Global

721
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 2: North and Mongolia is considered part of the Global South.

722
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: But generally speak in the global salth refus to the

723
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: post Coulnar regions and the global North refus the wealthy,

724
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 2: industrialized trees of the world. To me, again, it's not

725
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: really a flawless framework. It has all the same binaries

726
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 2: and smoothing over of complexities of internal class divides between

727
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 2: for example, ritually it's in the global South and poor

728
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: communities in the North. It gives impression that entire countries

729
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: share unified class experience, I think. I think it also

730
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 2: has the potential to obscure inequality between South South relations.

731
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: So yes, two countries may both be a part of

732
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 2: the Global South, but there could be a massive power

733
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: differential between them that you know, sets them up for

734
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 2: interventions and equal treaties and also sort of different sorts

735
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: of medline. For example, Saudi Arabia, at least in one

736
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: map that I saw, is considered part of the Global South.

737
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: But as we know, Saudi Arabia is famous first medland

738
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: across Africa and the Middle East. It's interventions, it's financing

739
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: of the conflicts across the region. Now I get why

740
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 2: the term is used. It creates a sense of shared struggle,

741
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: especially in anti imperialist and climate justice spaces. But I

742
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 2: think it has weaknesses, you know, and how we constructlidarity.

743
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 3: On that basis, yeah, very much too.

744
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the other and final system that I wanted

745
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: to mention that has gained popularity these days. Is world

746
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: systems theory, which is actually older than class civilizations. It

747
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 2: came out of Immanuel Wallastein's work during the Cold War,

748
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: and he kind of stood out and said that he

749
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 2: was rejecting the three world system and the simplistic country

750
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: by country development models. Instead he created this world systems

751
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: theory that saw capitalism as a single global system, not

752
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,800
Speaker 2: a patchwork of individual national economies. So the focuses on

753
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 2: labor roles, on commodity flows, and on power concentration. And

754
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: I think in an even more globalized world it makes

755
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: the most sense to the wallaceteine. They have three differ

756
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: and zones of the global economy. You have the core,

757
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: which as you know, have strong states, financial capital, tech

758
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: heavy industries controlled with global institutions, and they tend to

759
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: exploit the labor and resources of the periphery, while exports

760
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 2: and high value goods and debt structures, and the periphery

761
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: of the countries that tend to have weaker institutions, extractive

762
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: or career economies, reliance and export and raw materials, debt

763
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: defendency and structural adjustment policies, and they often dump in

764
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: grounds for pollution waste and arms from the global North.

765
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: The semi periphery are then considered under his model, the

766
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 2: countries that mediates between the core and the periphery. These

767
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: are industrializing economies with mixed labor and capital exports. They

768
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: sometimes exploit others while being exploited themselves, and these include

769
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 2: countries like Brazil, India, Mexico, Turkey, and South Africa. And

770
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: they tend to save as the buffers as stabilize the

771
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: system while chasing core status. I think this model is

772
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,879
Speaker 2: very dynamic. It could be more dynamic, but it does

773
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 2: have the capacity to highlight the systemic interdependence of this

774
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: glocal system, that one region's wealth is contingent on another's dispossession.

775
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: It makes it very useful for understanding that, you know,

776
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: poverty is not something that just happens, it's nan is

777
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: very clearly structured and developed by the wealth of the North.

778
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 2: And I think also with the corporate free model, you

779
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 2: see the sense of a one way flow where value

780
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: and labor goes from the periphery to the core. But

781
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 2: there is another direction that flow goes right because the

782
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: migrants from the periphree they go to the core. They

783
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: fill precurious rules and core economy is like care work

784
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: and agriculture and logistics, and so they almost become an

785
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: important periphery within the core, and their absence from the

786
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: periphree also deprives the periphree. Hence the phenomenon of brain drain,

787
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: where people are sipher the way as label and the

788
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: and the educated population tends to leave, you know, their

789
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: countries of origin. But I'm saying it's not just a

790
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: one way flow, because you also have that sense of

791
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: diaspora and diasporic networks that kind of reverse the flow.

792
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: Remittances for some countries can be a significant chunk of

793
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: their national income. I think the Philippines is a classic

794
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 2: example of this. Some of the Caribbean countries, either historically

795
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: or presently, we're very dependent on remittances from their diasporic

796
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: populations sending money back home. Lebanon is another example of

797
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: Salvador is another example. They become a key part of

798
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: the national GDP. That sort of relationship of my creatia. Yeah,

799
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: but I think what I want to do with this

800
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: corporate free model or this corefree SEMIPI free model is

801
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: expanded and one of the ways that I found very

802
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 2: useful to do so comes from fellow podcaster shout out

803
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: to Elia j Ayube. Yeah, I read it. Article of

804
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 2: is that was on the anarchist libraries called the periphery

805
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: has no time for binaries. This very crucial point, and

806
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,479
Speaker 2: I quote, we are as peripheral to the global soult

807
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: regimes crushing us as they are perceived to be by

808
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: the Western think tanks and foreign ministers who view their

809
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: imagined space as the center of the world. China and

810
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: Russia and Iran are peripheral to the West, and any

811
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: and all activists in China and Russia and Iran are

812
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: peripheral to their governments. So I kind of like this

813
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: sense of not just looking on the country level, but

814
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 2: looking at particular populations, populations within countries the relationships between them,

815
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: bringing in that class dynamic Yeah, routine populations more prominently.

816
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like if you look at the like the example

817
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 4: I'm familiar with, relate like the Cold We could look

818
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 4: at Kurdistan or Mienma, right, there are ethnic groups within

819
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 4: that country that are subject to colonialism by the core

820
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 4: groups within that country, right, like asad Arab belt for

821
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 4: the Bama majority, using classic colonial divide and rule tactics

822
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 4: right now against the hinder in the MMR. And like,

823
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 4: I think it doesn't make sense to see that whole

824
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 4: country is peripheral, right, Like that binary doesn't function when

825
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,959
Speaker 4: like the salient colonial violence happening, especially in the MMA,

826
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 4: is happening within the ANMA, but it doesn't make any

827
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 4: less salient. And like the experience in colonialism is still violent.

828
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: And if we only use this state level binary, we

829
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 4: will totally miss.

830
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 2: That exactly exactly, And I think it's important to be clear.

831
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,879
Speaker 2: Obviously I've rejected a lot of these frameworks in covering them.

832
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: You won't see me using the civilized primitive binary anytime soon.

833
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: But some of these concepts can be useful. You know.

834
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: They do shape the way that we view the world,

835
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: how we see ourselves the imperfect, of course, but because

836
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: they're trying to map on reality and reality is a

837
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: shifting beast. But I think it's good to have some

838
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: sense of or some language to understand the inequality and

839
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 2: podynamics present in the world. So we can reclaim these

840
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: free mooks, so we can reject them. You know, we

841
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: could use them for solidarity or for division. But the

842
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: question I want to leave us with the wrap of

843
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: this episode is how do we build a world where

844
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 2: these divisions are no longer descriptive or relevant? And that's

845
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 2: all I have for today? Or power to all the people. Peace.

846
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

847
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

848
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

849
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

850
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it Could Happen Here

851
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.