WEBVTT - The Sony Hack: Mistakes Part 1 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.996 Pushkin. On the morning of November twenty fourth, twenty fourteen, 0:00:23.636 --> 0:00:27.476 just a few days before Thanksgiving, Michael Linton drove from 0:00:27.476 --> 0:00:31.036 his house in West Los Angeles to Culver City, the 0:00:31.076 --> 0:00:35.076 home of the sprawling complex that houses Sony Pictures Entertainment. 0:00:35.836 --> 0:00:39.476 He was the CEO. He had been at Sony nearly 0:00:39.516 --> 0:00:40.236 eleven years. 0:00:41.076 --> 0:00:43.676 The films were all going well. We had a bunch 0:00:43.716 --> 0:00:46.596 of stuff going really well on television, Breaking Bad and 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:50.276 Blacklist and things like that. The music company also was 0:00:50.316 --> 0:00:52.356 having a very good year, so everything seemed to be 0:00:52.396 --> 0:00:53.236 on a steady pace. 0:00:54.196 --> 0:00:56.636 He turned onto Bundy from Samvasindi Boulevard. 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:00.996 I was driving to work, and I get a phone 0:01:00.996 --> 0:01:04.796 call from our CFO, Dave Hendler, and he said, Mike, 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:08.076 all of our systems are down. Nothing is working here 0:01:08.076 --> 0:01:11.556 at the studio. Appears like a bunch of our laptops 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:15.436 have been fried and are unusable. They're actually broken, and 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:18.276 we do not, for the life of us, understand what's happened. 0:01:18.756 --> 0:01:20.156 He arrived a few minutes later. 0:01:20.556 --> 0:01:23.476 The studio was a lot like a college campus. It's 0:01:23.556 --> 0:01:27.876 like five or seven thousand people, half of them are employees. 0:01:27.956 --> 0:01:30.356 But as a result of you all sitting in that 0:01:30.476 --> 0:01:34.916 one space. Word travels very fast and when I By 0:01:34.956 --> 0:01:37.396 the time I drove up, there were crowds already in 0:01:37.396 --> 0:01:40.436 front of the building, like, what's going on, what's happening, 0:01:40.476 --> 0:01:41.116 what's happening. 0:01:42.716 --> 0:01:46.156 The entire Sony Pictures operation had been hacked, and whoever 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:49.156 had done it had clearly gotten deep inside. 0:01:49.316 --> 0:01:52.276 Nobody knew for sure what was going on. It was 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:53.676 just pandemonium. Frankly. 0:01:54.916 --> 0:01:58.716 A few days later came the first blow. The hackers 0:01:58.996 --> 0:02:02.876 released the company's emails, all of them onto a website 0:02:02.956 --> 0:02:09.276 called Pastebin, the password de E spe one two three 0:02:09.636 --> 0:02:14.476 die Sony Pictures Entertainment. The press had a field day. 0:02:15.436 --> 0:02:19.476 Those emails were sallacious because they involved movie stars and 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:22.636 people saying things about people they shouldn't have been saying. 0:02:22.836 --> 0:02:25.716 And you know, you were seeing the internal ten years 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:29.036 of internal correspondence at a big Hollywood studio, which by 0:02:29.076 --> 0:02:31.276 definition has a lot of juicy stuff in it. 0:02:32.556 --> 0:02:37.716 Not just things involving stars, everyone's emails, emails to your 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:42.996 wife or husband, to your kids, emails about people's medical problems, relationships, 0:02:43.476 --> 0:02:45.516 and not because, as in the case of the Jeffrey 0:02:45.556 --> 0:02:48.756 Epstein files, the people involved had been associating with a 0:02:48.836 --> 0:02:52.516 known predator. These were just people who happened to work 0:02:52.516 --> 0:02:53.396 for a movie studio. 0:02:55.556 --> 0:02:58.676 And in addition to that, over time, you know, and 0:02:58.716 --> 0:03:00.996 we had all this stuff up on our system, you know, 0:03:01.156 --> 0:03:04.556 the Karate Kid which was about to be coming out, 0:03:05.716 --> 0:03:09.316 The new script for James Bond, which nobody had seen 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:11.236 up until that point, was being released. So there was 0:03:11.436 --> 0:03:14.516 you know, it was a lot of juicy material that 0:03:14.596 --> 0:03:15.956 was being released into the public. 0:03:19.276 --> 0:03:21.516 It was one of the most damaging business hacks in 0:03:21.636 --> 0:03:24.716 US history. Some estimates put the cost to Sony at 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:28.276 over one hundred million dollars, and when Linton looked back 0:03:28.316 --> 0:03:32.516 on what happened, he came to an uncomfortable conclusion that, 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:41.596 in some significant sense, it was all his fault. My 0:03:41.716 --> 0:03:45.156 name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my 0:03:45.276 --> 0:03:49.756 podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the first 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:53.796 episode in a mini series about mistakes, inspired by a 0:03:53.796 --> 0:03:57.156 book that Linton and Josh Steiner have published called From 0:03:57.196 --> 0:04:00.996 Mistakes to Meaning, in which they investigate the origin and 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:04.916 consequences of mistakes. Starting with the story of what happened 0:04:04.956 --> 0:04:08.476 on the Sony lot that November morning. We're going to 0:04:08.516 --> 0:04:12.036 start there as well well, because I remember it all firsthand. 0:04:12.676 --> 0:04:16.556 Michael Linton is one of my closest friends in those days. 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:19.076 I would stay at his guest house in Los Angeles 0:04:19.116 --> 0:04:29.796 for weeks at a time, like Kato Kalin. I remember, 0:04:30.076 --> 0:04:35.116 I remember correctly. You guys came to New York for Thanksgiving. 0:04:35.716 --> 0:04:37.236 We did his house, Yeah, we did. 0:04:37.356 --> 0:04:38.716 In the middle of all of this, we did. 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:40.796 Yeah, because we wanted to sort of have the kids 0:04:40.796 --> 0:04:42.116 feel like everything was normal. 0:04:42.476 --> 0:04:44.916 And I was at that I was with I came 0:04:44.916 --> 0:04:47.836 to Thanksgiving. Oh yeah, yeah, y And I just remember 0:04:48.916 --> 0:04:51.116 I have a it's burned it in my memory. Is 0:04:51.756 --> 0:04:55.316 you sitting in a chair the corner of the room 0:04:55.796 --> 0:04:58.196 by yourself, with your like head in your hands. 0:04:58.356 --> 0:05:00.716 Oh yeah. It was a low moment, it was. Those 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:03.196 weeks were terrible. I remember I lost all that weight. Yeah, 0:05:03.396 --> 0:05:04.276 so it was a rough time. 0:05:04.556 --> 0:05:04.756 Yeah. 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:08.876 That was twelve years ago, the worst moment of his career. 0:05:08.876 --> 0:05:12.636 By and in the ensuing years, Michael never talked about 0:05:12.676 --> 0:05:15.596 any of it, none of it, not with me and 0:05:15.676 --> 0:05:17.996 not with anyone as far as I can tell. It 0:05:18.116 --> 0:05:21.716 was a memory that he decided to bury, until all 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:25.836 of a sudden he dug it back up. This is 0:05:25.876 --> 0:05:31.836 his story. As the CEO of an entertainment company, Michael 0:05:31.876 --> 0:05:35.316 Litton was in an odd position. The CEO of, say, 0:05:35.716 --> 0:05:39.436 a software company, is almost always a software engineer. The 0:05:39.556 --> 0:05:42.676 leaders of a company like that belong culturally to the 0:05:42.716 --> 0:05:45.756 same world as the rank and file. That's true of 0:05:45.756 --> 0:05:50.796 many professions. Principles are former teachers. The person running sales 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:54.836 at Ford used to sell Fords. But in a creative industry, 0:05:55.036 --> 0:05:57.676 the people running the business tend to belong to a 0:05:57.716 --> 0:06:01.036 different culture than the people who work for them. I 0:06:01.036 --> 0:06:04.196 would sometimes visit Michael at Sony, and as a carnut, 0:06:04.396 --> 0:06:06.116 I would get a kick out of walking through the 0:06:06.156 --> 0:06:10.116 executive parking lot and seeing the long row of BMW's 0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:13.196 and Porschas and Mercedes and Audi's, until I came to 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:16.956 the CEO spot and there was Michael's white folks back 0:06:16.996 --> 0:06:17.436 in golf. 0:06:18.356 --> 0:06:20.876 I'm the non creative person. I'm the person who's supposed 0:06:20.876 --> 0:06:23.796 to mine the store, so to speak. I'm the person 0:06:23.836 --> 0:06:25.916 who's meant to turn the lights out before we all 0:06:25.956 --> 0:06:29.796 go home. I'm the person who's making sure that everything 0:06:29.876 --> 0:06:33.596 is sort of running properly, that we're making the numbers. 0:06:33.676 --> 0:06:36.556 And I was with the exception of maybe one other 0:06:36.596 --> 0:06:38.836 person around there, the only guy in a. 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:40.916 Suit, and you're the only one going to Japan. 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:42.836 I'm pretty much the only one going to Japan. 0:06:43.516 --> 0:06:47.796 Sony Pictures was and remains a subsidiary of the Sony Corporation, 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.916 which is a massive electronics, insurance and media conglomerate based 0:06:51.916 --> 0:06:52.476 in Tokyo. 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:54.956 I remember there was always the same flight. It was 0:06:54.996 --> 0:06:57.396 an Ana flight that left at one o'clock in the 0:06:57.436 --> 0:07:00.196 morning out of lax And the reason I took that 0:07:00.236 --> 0:07:02.236 flight is it got in at five o'clock in the 0:07:02.236 --> 0:07:05.876 morning into Henda, which is the Urt metropump. And I 0:07:05.876 --> 0:07:10.476 would take that same flight back at midnight the next 0:07:10.596 --> 0:07:13.876 day because I had little kids and the other thing, 0:07:13.916 --> 0:07:14.836 and I want to get home. 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:19.596 The creatives that Sony found new ideas, developed scripts and 0:07:19.636 --> 0:07:23.076 forged relationships with actors and directors, but for a movie 0:07:23.116 --> 0:07:25.036 to be made, it had to be approved by a 0:07:25.076 --> 0:07:29.516 special green light meeting chaired by Michael. All of the 0:07:29.516 --> 0:07:33.596 department heads would be there, Television, home entertainment, marketing, legal, finance, 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:36.716 government affairs. They would zero in on the likely audience, 0:07:37.076 --> 0:07:39.196 look at estimates of how much a movie would cost, 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:43.076 how much movies in that particular genre or category typically 0:07:43.076 --> 0:07:46.596 made figure out how lucrative the overseas market might be. 0:07:47.036 --> 0:07:49.996 On and on, people get caught up in their passions 0:07:49.996 --> 0:07:52.796 and get caught up in their emotional interests, and my job, 0:07:52.956 --> 0:07:56.516 oftentimes was to make sure that we were dispassionate about 0:07:56.516 --> 0:07:58.396 things and objective in the way we looked at. 0:07:58.516 --> 0:08:02.636 This disciplining function that you serve is is. 0:08:02.596 --> 0:08:05.476 Look, yeah, there were no water Worlds by way of 0:08:05.556 --> 0:08:08.356 Excitants Gate, you know, Heavens Gate. Now we had, you know, 0:08:08.396 --> 0:08:11.116 we had our group of failures, but they weren't things 0:08:11.116 --> 0:08:14.276 that would sink the studio or even sink the year. Frankly, 0:08:15.276 --> 0:08:17.276 so it was pretty Yeah, it was pretty steady in 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:18.556 its performance at that point. 0:08:19.556 --> 0:08:23.516 And then came the summer of twenty thirteen, so lead 0:08:23.596 --> 0:08:26.836 us up to so a movie comes up. 0:08:26.676 --> 0:08:31.196 For consideration, right called The Interview, called The Interview, and 0:08:31.236 --> 0:08:35.836 it's presented by Seth Rogan, And we had had a 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:37.116 lot of success. 0:08:36.676 --> 0:08:39.636 With Seth Rogan up until that moment. He had produced 0:08:39.676 --> 0:08:42.476 a series of R rated comedies for the studio that 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:44.676 had done really, really well. And he comes in with 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:47.436 his movie The Interview, and the Interview is about two 0:08:47.516 --> 0:08:50.676 hapless journalists played by Seth Rogan and James Franco, who 0:08:51.396 --> 0:08:55.356 go off to North Korea ostensibly, you know, to convince 0:08:55.476 --> 0:08:58.796 Kim jungun to be in some television reportage, but in 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:01.356 truth they were under the auspices of the CIA in 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:03.516 the plot of the movie, and they were going to 0:09:03.556 --> 0:09:05.996 assassinate Kim Jong un. At the end of the movie 0:09:06.436 --> 0:09:08.116 and they say, this is the next thing we would 0:09:08.156 --> 0:09:12.236 like to do, and we'd like a quick response or 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:14.556 the agent said this, because you know, if you don't 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:16.236 want to do it, there's somebody else. 0:09:20.516 --> 0:09:23.756 Everyone, Sony and Rogan decide to do a read through 0:09:23.836 --> 0:09:26.756 on the Sony lot for Michael and his counterpart on 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:29.436 the creative side of the studio, Amy Pascal. 0:09:30.076 --> 0:09:33.156 We had promised them that after that read through, we 0:09:33.196 --> 0:09:37.596 would give them a yay or an a decision, and 0:09:37.596 --> 0:09:39.516 that's sort of the setup for how this whole thing 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:40.156 came to pass. 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:41.676 So they all show up. 0:09:41.916 --> 0:09:44.036 So they all show up. And by the way, when 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:46.876 I say we would give them a yay or an 0:09:46.916 --> 0:09:50.076 ay decision, in the normal course of things, what we 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:51.596 would have done is you would have had the read 0:09:51.636 --> 0:09:56.356 through and you would have had that meeting, but you 0:09:56.356 --> 0:09:58.156 would have had the meeting knowing that the thing was 0:09:58.156 --> 0:10:00.636 funny and it worked with an audience or not. But 0:10:00.836 --> 0:10:01.716 in this case it did. 0:10:02.436 --> 0:10:04.676 So describe the read. 0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:07.956 So just to give a real sense of it. The 0:10:07.996 --> 0:10:11.356 studio was the Old End Studio. It's forty four acres 0:10:11.436 --> 0:10:16.596 of Art Deco buildings and beautiful sound stages that go 0:10:16.756 --> 0:10:19.356 back to the twenties and the thirties. It's the lot 0:10:19.396 --> 0:10:24.316 where they made The Wizard of Oz. And across the 0:10:24.316 --> 0:10:26.876 street from that is there's this very modern, not very 0:10:26.956 --> 0:10:28.676 nice looking building, and then in the bottom of the 0:10:28.676 --> 0:10:31.516 building there was a there was a very large room 0:10:31.556 --> 0:10:33.436 and that's where we had the read through. When I 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:36.156 walk in the room, it's what you would imagine it 0:10:36.196 --> 0:10:39.196 to be. The actors are all standing there, very casually, 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:43.596 ready to go. The creative folks are also, you know, 0:10:43.636 --> 0:10:46.956 they're almost indistinguishable in their dress, to be honest, from 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:49.916 the actors. And then there's me in a dark suit 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:53.476 and a white shirt, a pair of laced up leather shoes, 0:10:53.796 --> 0:10:55.876 and you know, I stand out like a sore thumb 0:10:56.116 --> 0:10:59.116 and the you know, and then we start to read through, 0:10:59.596 --> 0:11:04.076 and it's it's really funny. It's like you can't stop laughing. Funny. 0:11:04.116 --> 0:11:08.236 Everybody is laughing. And at the very end, you know, 0:11:09.316 --> 0:11:12.516 seth Rogen stands up and James Franco stands up, and 0:11:12.556 --> 0:11:15.636 Amy says, let's make this, and everybody's super enthusiastic about 0:11:15.716 --> 0:11:18.356 doing it. And I just got completely caught up in 0:11:18.396 --> 0:11:20.996 the moment and I said, yeah, let's go do this, 0:11:21.436 --> 0:11:24.276 which is not something I ever would have done. And 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:26.156 I'd been in that job at that point for over 0:11:26.196 --> 0:11:28.876 a decade and I had never done that up until 0:11:28.876 --> 0:11:29.316 that moment. 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:44.436 That was his mistake. It is understandable, I think why 0:11:44.476 --> 0:11:46.956 Michael didn't want to talk about his mistake for so long. 0:11:47.596 --> 0:11:50.196 None of us want to talk about our mistakes, not 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:53.076 just because we're afraid of looking bad or because the 0:11:53.116 --> 0:11:55.996 memory of our mistake is too painful to revisit, but 0:11:56.036 --> 0:11:58.396 because we feel obliged to come up with a reason 0:11:58.476 --> 0:12:03.676 for our mistake. That part is really hard. For their book, 0:12:03.876 --> 0:12:06.876 From Mistakes to Meaning, Michael and his friend Josh Steiner 0:12:06.916 --> 0:12:09.396 interviewed a dozen or so people about a mistake that 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:12.436 had made, with each story taking up a chapter, and 0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:14.876 I was one of the people they talked to. I 0:12:14.916 --> 0:12:17.076 told them about a mistake that I think changed the 0:12:17.076 --> 0:12:19.916 course of my life. And yet when the time came 0:12:19.956 --> 0:12:22.756 to try and explain why I did what I did, 0:12:22.876 --> 0:12:26.036 I couldn't do it. I drew a blank. And I 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:28.756 found that sudden inability to account from my long ago 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:33.556 error so bewildering that I became overwhelmed and told them 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:37.276 I wanted to switch to another, far less consequential mistake. 0:12:38.076 --> 0:12:40.516 My sense is that this is what Michael was avoiding 0:12:40.996 --> 0:12:44.436 until he realized that by leaving something as traumatic as 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:47.676 the hack unexamined, he was only making things worse. 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:51.276 What happened was five years ago, which was five years 0:12:51.356 --> 0:12:55.836 after the hack. Josh Steiner and I. Josh is my 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:58.556 partner in this, and actually the idea for the book 0:12:58.676 --> 0:13:02.276 is his. We were walking on the beach one day 0:13:02.516 --> 0:13:06.996 and we'd been good friends, and he had been around 0:13:07.076 --> 0:13:08.676 during the hacking, and I had spoken a lot in 0:13:08.716 --> 0:13:11.716 that period. It had been very helpful to me. He said, 0:13:11.756 --> 0:13:14.956 you know, Michael, you never ever want to talk about 0:13:14.996 --> 0:13:17.556 this thing, and I know it weighs heavy on you, 0:13:18.156 --> 0:13:20.716 and it's frustrating to me that you won't talk about it. 0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:23.836 And I don't think it's healthy that you're not talking 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:26.876 about it, and I think we probably I think what 0:13:26.996 --> 0:13:29.236 might be a good idea is if we both investigated 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:32.756 this stuff and we looked into it. So up until 0:13:32.756 --> 0:13:37.716 that time that moment, actually, Josh was one hundred percent correct. 0:13:37.756 --> 0:13:40.796 I did everything in my power to put it in 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:43.356 a drawer and not look at it think about it. 0:13:43.396 --> 0:13:46.756 So I really didn't investigate why I had come to 0:13:46.796 --> 0:13:48.876 that decision in that moment until we sort of went 0:13:48.916 --> 0:13:51.956 through the process of writing the book or investigating the book. 0:13:52.836 --> 0:13:55.916 What they saw in the subjects they interviewed was what 0:13:55.996 --> 0:13:58.276 a good shrink would see in the course of analysis. 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:01.916 That people very early in life develop ways of organizing 0:14:01.956 --> 0:14:05.756 the world, of seeing themselves in relation to others, schemas 0:14:05.836 --> 0:14:09.436 as they call them, and those schemas persist as a 0:14:09.516 --> 0:14:11.956 kind of silent filter for your experiences. 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:14.956 What it really does is it gives you a shorthand 0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:18.236 for how to understand a situation. In the moment. It's 0:14:18.356 --> 0:14:21.196 just like, oh, okay, I recognize this this thing is 0:14:21.276 --> 0:14:23.876 like this thing, and so I can make this decision, 0:14:23.956 --> 0:14:27.116 which for the most part serves us well. But sometimes 0:14:27.156 --> 0:14:30.876 when you're not understanding the context you're in, those schemas 0:14:30.916 --> 0:14:32.396 can lead you to a bad decision. 0:14:33.156 --> 0:14:37.996 Michael and Josh got a psychologist from Johns Hopkins, Alison Papadoccus, 0:14:38.036 --> 0:14:40.636 to assist them, and all of them went back over 0:14:40.676 --> 0:14:44.156 the mistakes stories they collected, and then over their own 0:14:44.196 --> 0:14:48.076 stories until they began to see a pattern. How long 0:14:48.116 --> 0:14:50.476 did it take you to come to what you believed 0:14:50.476 --> 0:14:53.956 to be the best understanding of why you decided to 0:14:54.676 --> 0:14:55.516 that movie in that way? 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:59.116 Both Josh and Allison said, because I didn't conclude as 0:14:59.196 --> 0:15:01.636 to why I had come to that decision, they started 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:04.116 unpacking and going back back, and I would say within 0:15:04.156 --> 0:15:06.796 the first couple of months, two or three months, maybe 0:15:06.796 --> 0:15:10.196 a little longer, we got down to the base level 0:15:10.236 --> 0:15:13.716 of why I had agreed to do that in that 0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:18.876 moment and made that mistake, which was so going back 0:15:18.916 --> 0:15:21.076 to when I was eight or nine years old, my parents, 0:15:21.196 --> 0:15:23.236 we were living in America at the time. My parents 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:27.516 moved my sister and myself to Holland out of the blue, 0:15:27.596 --> 0:15:29.956 pretty much really out of the blue, because it was 0:15:29.996 --> 0:15:32.436 in sort of the August September period, just as school 0:15:32.516 --> 0:15:36.516 was starting, and they came into the house one day 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:39.196 and said we're moving to Holland. There was business reasons 0:15:39.196 --> 0:15:40.676 to do it, and the rest of our family was 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:44.916 already over there. So I found myself in September stuck 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:47.276 in a school where I didn't speak the language, didn't 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:49.596 know anybody, and over the course of the next year 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.516 or two, I led a very, very, not a very 0:15:52.556 --> 0:15:54.796 but a lonely existence relative to the one that I 0:15:54.876 --> 0:15:57.276 was experiencing in America, where I was, you know, had 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.836 a group of friends, spoke the language easy time, and 0:16:01.036 --> 0:16:05.556 I developed this desire always to be part of the gang, 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.556 and particularly part of the cool gang, because I was 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:11.236 the gang. But I even once I had made friends, 0:16:11.276 --> 0:16:14.516 they weren't that they still remain friends of mine, but 0:16:14.556 --> 0:16:16.956 these were a bunch of kids who, like myself, were 0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:21.436 pretty nerdy. And that schema, that thing traveled with me 0:16:21.916 --> 0:16:23.956 for most of my life, in fact, all of my life, 0:16:23.996 --> 0:16:25.636 and it's always been this sort of a little bit 0:16:25.716 --> 0:16:29.436 nose pressed against the window and wanting to be part 0:16:29.436 --> 0:16:32.956 of it. And what we concluded was in that moment 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:35.636 where I said, Okay, let's go and make the movie. 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:38.036 I had been in the job for a long time. 0:16:38.076 --> 0:16:40.236 I'd been the guy who was always saying no. I 0:16:40.396 --> 0:16:43.316 was the actual suit in the Romans I described earlier, 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.396 and I just said, you know what, screw it. In 0:16:46.436 --> 0:16:48.596 this moment, I want to be part of that group. 0:16:49.076 --> 0:16:51.276 I don't want to be mister no, I don't want 0:16:51.276 --> 0:16:53.876 to be the suit. I'd like to be part of it. 0:16:53.916 --> 0:16:57.116 And I said, yes, what should he have done? 0:16:57.636 --> 0:17:03.796 He should have said, we'll get back to you, so 0:17:05.076 --> 0:17:10.116 let's replay it, and only this time you don't say 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:15.196 yes in the room and during a table read and 0:17:15.236 --> 0:17:21.436 you say, everyone's really excited, everyone's laughing really hard, and 0:17:21.516 --> 0:17:25.236 you say, this sounds great. We're going to take it 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:28.756 to our normal meeting, right, okay, so go you have 0:17:28.796 --> 0:17:30.876 the normal meeting. What happens in the normal meeting. 0:17:30.716 --> 0:17:33.356 Well, you would have sat around the table. Everybody would 0:17:33.396 --> 0:17:35.596 have looked at the numbers and looked at what prior 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:37.556 movies had done like it, and they would have on 0:17:37.636 --> 0:17:40.956 paper you would say, financially, this is a goer, let's 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:44.796 do this. But presumably what would have happened would have 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:48.316 been that the folks from public policy or our general 0:17:48.356 --> 0:17:51.636 counsel would have said, you know what, you're now trolling 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:54.756 in waters that are not typical to a movie studio, 0:17:54.876 --> 0:17:57.076 because there is this thing going on with North Korea 0:17:57.076 --> 0:17:59.796 and Japan, and let's take a moment, let's check back 0:17:59.796 --> 0:18:01.796 with Tokyo whether this is really a good idea. They 0:18:01.876 --> 0:18:03.556 for sure would have told us not to do it, 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:06.836 and that would have stopped the movie. 0:18:07.516 --> 0:18:10.916 Why would Tokyo have said no, Well, because of something 0:18:10.916 --> 0:18:13.436 that Michael didn't find out until much later. 0:18:13.996 --> 0:18:16.516 In this country. At that time, North Korea was sort 0:18:16.516 --> 0:18:19.556 of a you know, not well, yeah, a joke, like 0:18:19.636 --> 0:18:22.236 we laughed a little bit when we saw those images. 0:18:22.676 --> 0:18:25.596 That was not the case with respect to Japan. So 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:29.316 for you to understand that relationship going back to the seventies, 0:18:29.876 --> 0:18:33.236 they'd had even before that, but in the seventies in particular, 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:37.356 the relationship between North Korea and Japan was extremely contentious, 0:18:37.676 --> 0:18:41.156 to the point where a hundred school children were kidnapped 0:18:41.196 --> 0:18:45.636 off the streets and carted off to North Korea in 0:18:45.676 --> 0:18:51.116 that period, and in just as we were one hundred kids, yeah, 0:18:51.156 --> 0:18:54.476 and nobody really understood what had happened to those kids. 0:18:54.516 --> 0:18:58.996 And there was ongoing friction between the two countries on 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:02.436 a variety of different levels. But one of the things 0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:05.636 Prime Minister Abe was trying to do in the moment 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:07.876 that we were making these decisions which I had no 0:19:07.996 --> 0:19:10.956 knowledge of us. He was negotiating with the North Korean 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:15.716 government to get those whatever was remaining of those people 0:19:15.956 --> 0:19:19.636 back to Japan and trying to re establish or find 0:19:19.676 --> 0:19:23.196 some normalized relationship back with North Korea. So we were 0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:26.516 right in that moment, which is relevant because now we're 0:19:26.556 --> 0:19:29.636 thinking about making this movie where you're, you know, killing 0:19:29.716 --> 0:19:31.836 the leader of North Korea, which and you're owned by 0:19:31.836 --> 0:19:35.796 a Japanese company, so that equation is not a good one. 0:19:36.796 --> 0:19:38.996 It wasn't like The Interview was going to be one 0:19:39.036 --> 0:19:43.236 of Sony's blockbuster franchises. It was a small budget movie, 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:49.316 a genre movie. This genre didn't have the possibility of 0:19:49.316 --> 0:19:51.236 a massive upside. This movie was never going to make 0:19:51.236 --> 0:19:52.236 too No. 0:19:52.596 --> 0:19:54.436 And the other thing you got to remember about our 0:19:54.516 --> 0:19:57.636 rad of comedies is you only release them here in America. 0:19:57.876 --> 0:20:03.596 There is no international in them, so it's constricted both 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:06.196 geographically and also by its audience because it's our rated 0:20:06.276 --> 0:20:09.316 so you can't get you know, kids under seventeen there 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:12.756 in the first place, So no family, it's mostly guys. 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:15.156 It's limited, but you know who, the audience is. 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:21.716 Universal. Sony's counterpart, Acrosstown, would almost certainly have made it 0:20:21.716 --> 0:20:25.436 had Sony passed, Ruggan would have been fine. Sony would 0:20:25.436 --> 0:20:31.396 have been fine. So, but your would it have cost 0:20:31.476 --> 0:20:34.756 you reputationally within the studio to say no to this? 0:20:34.916 --> 0:20:38.316 Do you think it would have reinforced the Michael CSUITI 0:20:38.396 --> 0:20:40.996 doesn't get it. No, no, no, I don't think so 0:20:41.036 --> 0:20:42.036 would have been legitimate. 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:44.836 I think you know I pointed that out at the time, 0:20:44.836 --> 0:20:47.396 people would have said, oh, that makes total sense, of course, 0:20:47.396 --> 0:20:48.396 and they would have moved on. 0:21:02.636 --> 0:21:05.396 The interview was scheduled to be released in theaters in 0:21:05.476 --> 0:21:08.756 the Christmas season of twenty fourteen, and a few months 0:21:08.756 --> 0:21:11.756 before the release date, Sony put out a trailer which 0:21:11.796 --> 0:21:15.636 made it abundantly clear to the North Koreans how transaggressive 0:21:15.676 --> 0:21:16.716 this movie was going to be. 0:21:17.436 --> 0:21:21.516 Mister Rupport, I'm an agent Lacy with Central Intelligence than. 0:21:21.516 --> 0:21:23.676 You too are going to be in a room alone 0:21:23.676 --> 0:21:26.036 with Kim, and the CIA would love it if you 0:21:26.116 --> 0:21:31.556 could take him out, take him out for coffee, dinner 0:21:31.636 --> 0:21:35.236 for Kim chee. No, take him out. You want us 0:21:35.236 --> 0:21:38.436 to kill the leader of North Korea. And that was 0:21:38.516 --> 0:21:41.116 really the first moment when the public knew what the 0:21:41.116 --> 0:21:45.116 movie was going to be about. And shortly thereafter we 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:50.876 received a cryptic message and we had to do some 0:21:52.076 --> 0:21:53.996 detective work to figure out where it was coming from 0:21:53.996 --> 0:21:55.956 a term and it came out came from the North 0:21:56.076 --> 0:21:59.596 Korean envoy in New York City, and it was on 0:21:59.636 --> 0:22:02.676 an obscure website. It was brought to our attention that 0:22:02.996 --> 0:22:05.756 there was a warning from the North Korean government that 0:22:05.756 --> 0:22:07.916 there would be consequences that we put out the picture. 0:22:08.436 --> 0:22:12.156 Michael approached North Korea experts at the RAND Corporation and 0:22:12.196 --> 0:22:14.156 the State Department for advice. 0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:18.356 Because I figured they would probably know and ask them both, 0:22:18.516 --> 0:22:21.036 is this something I should be taking seriously? And in 0:22:21.076 --> 0:22:25.436 both cases they said, and I think this was all 0:22:25.476 --> 0:22:29.036