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Speaker 1: Pushkin. On the morning of November twenty fourth, twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: just a few days before Thanksgiving, Michael Linton drove from

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Speaker 1: his house in West Los Angeles to Culver City, the

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Speaker 1: home of the sprawling complex that houses Sony Pictures Entertainment.

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Speaker 1: He was the CEO. He had been at Sony nearly

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Speaker 1: eleven years.

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Speaker 2: The films were all going well. We had a bunch

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Speaker 2: of stuff going really well on television, Breaking Bad and

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Speaker 2: Blacklist and things like that. The music company also was

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Speaker 2: having a very good year, so everything seemed to be

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Speaker 2: on a steady pace.

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Speaker 1: He turned onto Bundy from Samvasindi Boulevard.

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Speaker 2: I was driving to work, and I get a phone

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Speaker 2: call from our CFO, Dave Hendler, and he said, Mike,

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Speaker 2: all of our systems are down. Nothing is working here

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Speaker 2: at the studio. Appears like a bunch of our laptops

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Speaker 2: have been fried and are unusable. They're actually broken, and

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Speaker 2: we do not, for the life of us, understand what's happened.

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Speaker 1: He arrived a few minutes later.

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Speaker 2: The studio was a lot like a college campus. It's

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Speaker 2: like five or seven thousand people, half of them are employees.

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Speaker 2: But as a result of you all sitting in that

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Speaker 2: one space. Word travels very fast and when I By

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Speaker 2: the time I drove up, there were crowds already in

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Speaker 2: front of the building, like, what's going on, what's happening,

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Speaker 2: what's happening.

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Speaker 1: The entire Sony Pictures operation had been hacked, and whoever

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Speaker 1: had done it had clearly gotten deep inside.

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Speaker 2: Nobody knew for sure what was going on. It was

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Speaker 2: just pandemonium. Frankly.

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Speaker 1: A few days later came the first blow. The hackers

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Speaker 1: released the company's emails, all of them onto a website

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Speaker 1: called Pastebin, the password de E spe one two three

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Speaker 1: die Sony Pictures Entertainment. The press had a field day.

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Speaker 2: Those emails were sallacious because they involved movie stars and

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Speaker 2: people saying things about people they shouldn't have been saying.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you were seeing the internal ten years

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Speaker 2: of internal correspondence at a big Hollywood studio, which by

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Speaker 2: definition has a lot of juicy stuff in it.

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Speaker 1: Not just things involving stars, everyone's emails, emails to your

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Speaker 1: wife or husband, to your kids, emails about people's medical problems, relationships,

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Speaker 1: and not because, as in the case of the Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein files, the people involved had been associating with a

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Speaker 1: known predator. These were just people who happened to work

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Speaker 1: for a movie studio.

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Speaker 2: And in addition to that, over time, you know, and

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Speaker 2: we had all this stuff up on our system, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Karate Kid which was about to be coming out,

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Speaker 2: The new script for James Bond, which nobody had seen

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Speaker 2: up until that point, was being released. So there was

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Speaker 2: you know, it was a lot of juicy material that

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Speaker 2: was being released into the public.

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Speaker 1: It was one of the most damaging business hacks in

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Speaker 1: US history. Some estimates put the cost to Sony at

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Speaker 1: over one hundred million dollars, and when Linton looked back

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Speaker 1: on what happened, he came to an uncomfortable conclusion that,

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Speaker 1: in some significant sense, it was all his fault. My

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Speaker 1: name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my

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Speaker 1: podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is the first

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Speaker 1: episode in a mini series about mistakes, inspired by a

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Speaker 1: book that Linton and Josh Steiner have published called From

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Speaker 1: Mistakes to Meaning, in which they investigate the origin and

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Speaker 1: consequences of mistakes. Starting with the story of what happened

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Speaker 1: on the Sony lot that November morning. We're going to

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Speaker 1: start there as well well, because I remember it all firsthand.

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Speaker 1: Michael Linton is one of my closest friends in those days.

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Speaker 1: I would stay at his guest house in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: for weeks at a time, like Kato Kalin. I remember,

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Speaker 1: I remember correctly. You guys came to New York for Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 2: We did his house, Yeah, we did.

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Speaker 1: In the middle of all of this, we did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we wanted to sort of have the kids

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Speaker 2: feel like everything was normal.

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Speaker 1: And I was at that I was with I came

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Speaker 1: to Thanksgiving. Oh yeah, yeah, y And I just remember

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Speaker 1: I have a it's burned it in my memory. Is

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Speaker 1: you sitting in a chair the corner of the room

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Speaker 1: by yourself, with your like head in your hands.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was a low moment, it was. Those

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Speaker 2: weeks were terrible. I remember I lost all that weight. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it was a rough time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That was twelve years ago, the worst moment of his career.

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Speaker 1: By and in the ensuing years, Michael never talked about

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Speaker 1: any of it, none of it, not with me and

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Speaker 1: not with anyone as far as I can tell. It

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Speaker 1: was a memory that he decided to bury, until all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden he dug it back up. This is

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Speaker 1: his story. As the CEO of an entertainment company, Michael

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Speaker 1: Litton was in an odd position. The CEO of, say,

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Speaker 1: a software company, is almost always a software engineer. The

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Speaker 1: leaders of a company like that belong culturally to the

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Speaker 1: same world as the rank and file. That's true of

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Speaker 1: many professions. Principles are former teachers. The person running sales

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Speaker 1: at Ford used to sell Fords. But in a creative industry,

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Speaker 1: the people running the business tend to belong to a

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Speaker 1: different culture than the people who work for them. I

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Speaker 1: would sometimes visit Michael at Sony, and as a carnut,

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Speaker 1: I would get a kick out of walking through the

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Speaker 1: executive parking lot and seeing the long row of BMW's

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Speaker 1: and Porschas and Mercedes and Audi's, until I came to

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Speaker 1: the CEO spot and there was Michael's white folks back

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Speaker 1: in golf.

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Speaker 2: I'm the non creative person. I'm the person who's supposed

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Speaker 2: to mine the store, so to speak. I'm the person

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Speaker 2: who's meant to turn the lights out before we all

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Speaker 2: go home. I'm the person who's making sure that everything

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Speaker 2: is sort of running properly, that we're making the numbers.

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Speaker 2: And I was with the exception of maybe one other

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Speaker 2: person around there, the only guy in a.

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Speaker 1: Suit, and you're the only one going to Japan.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty much the only one going to Japan.

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Speaker 1: Sony Pictures was and remains a subsidiary of the Sony Corporation,

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Speaker 1: which is a massive electronics, insurance and media conglomerate based

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Speaker 1: in Tokyo.

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Speaker 2: I remember there was always the same flight. It was

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Speaker 2: an Ana flight that left at one o'clock in the

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Speaker 2: morning out of lax And the reason I took that

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Speaker 2: flight is it got in at five o'clock in the

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Speaker 2: morning into Henda, which is the Urt metropump. And I

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Speaker 2: would take that same flight back at midnight the next

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Speaker 2: day because I had little kids and the other thing,

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Speaker 2: and I want to get home.

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Speaker 1: The creatives that Sony found new ideas, developed scripts and

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Speaker 1: forged relationships with actors and directors, but for a movie

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Speaker 1: to be made, it had to be approved by a

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Speaker 1: special green light meeting chaired by Michael. All of the

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Speaker 1: department heads would be there, Television, home entertainment, marketing, legal, finance,

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Speaker 1: government affairs. They would zero in on the likely audience,

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Speaker 1: look at estimates of how much a movie would cost,

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Speaker 1: how much movies in that particular genre or category typically

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Speaker 1: made figure out how lucrative the overseas market might be.

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Speaker 2: On and on, people get caught up in their passions

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Speaker 2: and get caught up in their emotional interests, and my job,

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Speaker 2: oftentimes was to make sure that we were dispassionate about

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Speaker 2: things and objective in the way we looked at.

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Speaker 1: This disciplining function that you serve is is.

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Speaker 2: Look, yeah, there were no water Worlds by way of

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Speaker 2: Excitants Gate, you know, Heavens Gate. Now we had, you know,

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Speaker 2: we had our group of failures, but they weren't things

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Speaker 2: that would sink the studio or even sink the year. Frankly,

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Speaker 2: so it was pretty Yeah, it was pretty steady in

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Speaker 2: its performance at that point.

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Speaker 1: And then came the summer of twenty thirteen, so lead

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Speaker 1: us up to so a movie comes up.

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Speaker 4: For consideration, right called The Interview, called The Interview, and

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Speaker 4: it's presented by Seth Rogan, And we had had a

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Speaker 4: lot of success.

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Speaker 2: With Seth Rogan up until that moment. He had produced

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Speaker 2: a series of R rated comedies for the studio that

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Speaker 2: had done really, really well. And he comes in with

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Speaker 2: his movie The Interview, and the Interview is about two

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Speaker 2: hapless journalists played by Seth Rogan and James Franco, who

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Speaker 2: go off to North Korea ostensibly, you know, to convince

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Speaker 2: Kim jungun to be in some television reportage, but in

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Speaker 2: truth they were under the auspices of the CIA in

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Speaker 2: the plot of the movie, and they were going to

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Speaker 2: assassinate Kim Jong un. At the end of the movie

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Speaker 2: and they say, this is the next thing we would

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Speaker 2: like to do, and we'd like a quick response or

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Speaker 2: the agent said this, because you know, if you don't

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Speaker 2: want to do it, there's somebody else.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, Sony and Rogan decide to do a read through

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Speaker 1: on the Sony lot for Michael and his counterpart on

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Speaker 1: the creative side of the studio, Amy Pascal.

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Speaker 2: We had promised them that after that read through, we

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Speaker 2: would give them a yay or an a decision, and

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Speaker 2: that's sort of the setup for how this whole thing

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Speaker 2: came to pass.

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Speaker 1: So they all show up.

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Speaker 2: So they all show up. And by the way, when

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Speaker 2: I say we would give them a yay or an

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Speaker 2: ay decision, in the normal course of things, what we

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Speaker 2: would have done is you would have had the read

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Speaker 2: through and you would have had that meeting, but you

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Speaker 2: would have had the meeting knowing that the thing was

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Speaker 2: funny and it worked with an audience or not. But

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Speaker 2: in this case it did.

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Speaker 1: So describe the read.

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Speaker 2: So just to give a real sense of it. The

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Speaker 2: studio was the Old End Studio. It's forty four acres

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Speaker 2: of Art Deco buildings and beautiful sound stages that go

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Speaker 2: back to the twenties and the thirties. It's the lot

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Speaker 2: where they made The Wizard of Oz. And across the

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Speaker 2: street from that is there's this very modern, not very

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Speaker 2: nice looking building, and then in the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: building there was a there was a very large room

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Speaker 2: and that's where we had the read through. When I

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Speaker 2: walk in the room, it's what you would imagine it

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Speaker 2: to be. The actors are all standing there, very casually,

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Speaker 2: ready to go. The creative folks are also, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're almost indistinguishable in their dress, to be honest, from

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Speaker 2: the actors. And then there's me in a dark suit

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Speaker 2: and a white shirt, a pair of laced up leather shoes,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I stand out like a sore thumb

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Speaker 2: and the you know, and then we start to read through,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's really funny. It's like you can't stop laughing. Funny.

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Speaker 2: Everybody is laughing. And at the very end, you know,

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Speaker 2: seth Rogen stands up and James Franco stands up, and

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Speaker 2: Amy says, let's make this, and everybody's super enthusiastic about

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Speaker 2: doing it. And I just got completely caught up in

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Speaker 2: the moment and I said, yeah, let's go do this,

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Speaker 2: which is not something I ever would have done. And

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Speaker 2: I'd been in that job at that point for over

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Speaker 2: a decade and I had never done that up until

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Speaker 2: that moment.

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Speaker 1: That was his mistake. It is understandable, I think why

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Speaker 1: Michael didn't want to talk about his mistake for so long.

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Speaker 1: None of us want to talk about our mistakes, not

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Speaker 1: just because we're afraid of looking bad or because the

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Speaker 1: memory of our mistake is too painful to revisit, but

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Speaker 1: because we feel obliged to come up with a reason

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Speaker 1: for our mistake. That part is really hard. For their book,

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Speaker 1: From Mistakes to Meaning, Michael and his friend Josh Steiner

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Speaker 1: interviewed a dozen or so people about a mistake that

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Speaker 1: had made, with each story taking up a chapter, and

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Speaker 1: I was one of the people they talked to. I

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Speaker 1: told them about a mistake that I think changed the

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Speaker 1: course of my life. And yet when the time came

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Speaker 1: to try and explain why I did what I did,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. I drew a blank. And I

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Speaker 1: found that sudden inability to account from my long ago

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Speaker 1: error so bewildering that I became overwhelmed and told them

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Speaker 1: I wanted to switch to another, far less consequential mistake.

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Speaker 1: My sense is that this is what Michael was avoiding

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Speaker 1: until he realized that by leaving something as traumatic as

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Speaker 1: the hack unexamined, he was only making things worse.

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Speaker 2: What happened was five years ago, which was five years

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Speaker 2: after the hack. Josh Steiner and I. Josh is my

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Speaker 2: partner in this, and actually the idea for the book

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Speaker 2: is his. We were walking on the beach one day

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Speaker 2: and we'd been good friends, and he had been around

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Speaker 2: during the hacking, and I had spoken a lot in

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Speaker 2: that period. It had been very helpful to me. He said,

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Speaker 2: you know, Michael, you never ever want to talk about

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Speaker 2: this thing, and I know it weighs heavy on you,

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Speaker 2: and it's frustrating to me that you won't talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think it's healthy that you're not talking

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Speaker 2: about it, and I think we probably I think what

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Speaker 2: might be a good idea is if we both investigated

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Speaker 2: this stuff and we looked into it. So up until

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Speaker 2: that time that moment, actually, Josh was one hundred percent correct.

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Speaker 2: I did everything in my power to put it in

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Speaker 2: a drawer and not look at it think about it.

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Speaker 2: So I really didn't investigate why I had come to

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Speaker 2: that decision in that moment until we sort of went

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Speaker 2: through the process of writing the book or investigating the book.

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Speaker 1: What they saw in the subjects they interviewed was what

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Speaker 1: a good shrink would see in the course of analysis.

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Speaker 1: That people very early in life develop ways of organizing

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Speaker 1: the world, of seeing themselves in relation to others, schemas

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Speaker 1: as they call them, and those schemas persist as a

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Speaker 1: kind of silent filter for your experiences.

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Speaker 2: What it really does is it gives you a shorthand

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Speaker 2: for how to understand a situation. In the moment. It's

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Speaker 2: just like, oh, okay, I recognize this this thing is

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Speaker 2: like this thing, and so I can make this decision,

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Speaker 2: which for the most part serves us well. But sometimes

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Speaker 2: when you're not understanding the context you're in, those schemas

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Speaker 2: can lead you to a bad decision.

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Speaker 1: Michael and Josh got a psychologist from Johns Hopkins, Alison Papadoccus,

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Speaker 1: to assist them, and all of them went back over

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Speaker 1: the mistakes stories they collected, and then over their own

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Speaker 1: stories until they began to see a pattern. How long

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Speaker 1: did it take you to come to what you believed

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Speaker 1: to be the best understanding of why you decided to

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Speaker 1: that movie in that way?

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Speaker 2: Both Josh and Allison said, because I didn't conclude as

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Speaker 2: to why I had come to that decision, they started

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Speaker 2: unpacking and going back back, and I would say within

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Speaker 2: the first couple of months, two or three months, maybe

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Speaker 2: a little longer, we got down to the base level

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Speaker 2: of why I had agreed to do that in that

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Speaker 2: moment and made that mistake, which was so going back

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Speaker 2: to when I was eight or nine years old, my parents,

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Speaker 2: we were living in America at the time. My parents

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Speaker 2: moved my sister and myself to Holland out of the blue,

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Speaker 2: pretty much really out of the blue, because it was

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Speaker 2: in sort of the August September period, just as school

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Speaker 2: was starting, and they came into the house one day

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Speaker 2: and said we're moving to Holland. There was business reasons

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Speaker 2: to do it, and the rest of our family was

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Speaker 2: already over there. So I found myself in September stuck

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Speaker 2: in a school where I didn't speak the language, didn't

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Speaker 2: know anybody, and over the course of the next year

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Speaker 2: or two, I led a very, very, not a very

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Speaker 2: but a lonely existence relative to the one that I

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Speaker 2: was experiencing in America, where I was, you know, had

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Speaker 2: a group of friends, spoke the language easy time, and

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Speaker 2: I developed this desire always to be part of the gang,

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Speaker 2: and particularly part of the cool gang, because I was

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Speaker 2: the gang. But I even once I had made friends,

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Speaker 2: they weren't that they still remain friends of mine, but

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Speaker 2: these were a bunch of kids who, like myself, were

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Speaker 2: pretty nerdy. And that schema, that thing traveled with me

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Speaker 2: for most of my life, in fact, all of my life,

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Speaker 2: and it's always been this sort of a little bit

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Speaker 2: nose pressed against the window and wanting to be part

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Speaker 2: of it. And what we concluded was in that moment

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Speaker 2: where I said, Okay, let's go and make the movie.

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Speaker 2: I had been in the job for a long time.

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Speaker 2: I'd been the guy who was always saying no. I

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Speaker 2: was the actual suit in the Romans I described earlier,

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Speaker 2: and I just said, you know what, screw it. In

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Speaker 2: this moment, I want to be part of that group.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be mister no, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to be the suit. I'd like to be part of it.

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Speaker 2: And I said, yes, what should he have done?

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Speaker 1: He should have said, we'll get back to you, so

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Speaker 1: let's replay it, and only this time you don't say

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Speaker 1: yes in the room and during a table read and

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Speaker 1: you say, everyone's really excited, everyone's laughing really hard, and

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Speaker 1: you say, this sounds great. We're going to take it

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Speaker 1: to our normal meeting, right, okay, so go you have

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Speaker 1: the normal meeting. What happens in the normal meeting.

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Speaker 2: Well, you would have sat around the table. Everybody would

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Speaker 2: have looked at the numbers and looked at what prior

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Speaker 2: movies had done like it, and they would have on

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Speaker 2: paper you would say, financially, this is a goer, let's

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Speaker 2: do this. But presumably what would have happened would have

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Speaker 2: been that the folks from public policy or our general

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Speaker 2: counsel would have said, you know what, you're now trolling

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Speaker 2: in waters that are not typical to a movie studio,

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Speaker 2: because there is this thing going on with North Korea

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Speaker 2: and Japan, and let's take a moment, let's check back

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Speaker 2: with Tokyo whether this is really a good idea. They

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Speaker 2: for sure would have told us not to do it,

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Speaker 2: and that would have stopped the movie.

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Speaker 1: Why would Tokyo have said no, Well, because of something

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Speaker 1: that Michael didn't find out until much later.

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Speaker 2: In this country. At that time, North Korea was sort

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Speaker 2: of a you know, not well, yeah, a joke, like

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Speaker 2: we laughed a little bit when we saw those images.

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Speaker 2: That was not the case with respect to Japan. So

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Speaker 2: for you to understand that relationship going back to the seventies,

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Speaker 2: they'd had even before that, but in the seventies in particular,

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Speaker 2: the relationship between North Korea and Japan was extremely contentious,

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Speaker 2: to the point where a hundred school children were kidnapped

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Speaker 2: off the streets and carted off to North Korea in

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Speaker 2: that period, and in just as we were one hundred kids, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and nobody really understood what had happened to those kids.

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Speaker 2: And there was ongoing friction between the two countries on

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Speaker 2: a variety of different levels. But one of the things

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister Abe was trying to do in the moment

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Speaker 2: that we were making these decisions which I had no

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Speaker 2: knowledge of us. He was negotiating with the North Korean

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Speaker 2: government to get those whatever was remaining of those people

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Speaker 2: back to Japan and trying to re establish or find

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Speaker 2: some normalized relationship back with North Korea. So we were

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Speaker 2: right in that moment, which is relevant because now we're

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Speaker 2: thinking about making this movie where you're, you know, killing

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Speaker 2: the leader of North Korea, which and you're owned by

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Speaker 2: a Japanese company, so that equation is not a good one.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like The Interview was going to be one

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Speaker 1: of Sony's blockbuster franchises. It was a small budget movie,

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Speaker 1: a genre movie. This genre didn't have the possibility of

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Speaker 1: a massive upside. This movie was never going to make

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Speaker 1: too No.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing you got to remember about our

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Speaker 2: rad of comedies is you only release them here in America.

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Speaker 2: There is no international in them, so it's constricted both

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Speaker 2: geographically and also by its audience because it's our rated

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Speaker 2: so you can't get you know, kids under seventeen there

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Speaker 2: in the first place, So no family, it's mostly guys.

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Speaker 2: It's limited, but you know who, the audience is.

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Speaker 1: Universal. Sony's counterpart, Acrosstown, would almost certainly have made it

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Speaker 1: had Sony passed, Ruggan would have been fine. Sony would

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Speaker 1: have been fine. So, but your would it have cost

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Speaker 1: you reputationally within the studio to say no to this?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it would have reinforced the Michael CSUITI

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Speaker 1: doesn't get it. No, no, no, I don't think so

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Speaker 1: would have been legitimate.

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Speaker 2: I think you know I pointed that out at the time,

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Speaker 2: people would have said, oh, that makes total sense, of course,

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Speaker 2: and they would have moved on.

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Speaker 1: The interview was scheduled to be released in theaters in

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Speaker 1: the Christmas season of twenty fourteen, and a few months

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Speaker 1: before the release date, Sony put out a trailer which

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Speaker 1: made it abundantly clear to the North Koreans how transaggressive

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Speaker 1: this movie was going to be.

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Speaker 4: Mister Rupport, I'm an agent Lacy with Central Intelligence than.

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Speaker 2: You too are going to be in a room alone

383
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Speaker 2: with Kim, and the CIA would love it if you

384
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Speaker 2: could take him out, take him out for coffee, dinner

385
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Speaker 2: for Kim chee. No, take him out. You want us

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Speaker 2: to kill the leader of North Korea. And that was

387
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Speaker 2: really the first moment when the public knew what the

388
00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:45,116
Speaker 2: movie was going to be about. And shortly thereafter we

389
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Speaker 2: received a cryptic message and we had to do some

390
00:21:52,076 --> 00:21:53,996
Speaker 2: detective work to figure out where it was coming from

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Speaker 2: a term and it came out came from the North

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Speaker 2: Korean envoy in New York City, and it was on

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Speaker 2: an obscure website. It was brought to our attention that

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Speaker 2: there was a warning from the North Korean government that

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Speaker 2: there would be consequences that we put out the picture.

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Speaker 1: Michael approached North Korea experts at the RAND Corporation and

397
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Speaker 1: the State Department for advice.

398
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Speaker 2: Because I figured they would probably know and ask them both,

399
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Speaker 2: is this something I should be taking seriously? And in

400
00:22:21,076 --> 00:22:25,436
Speaker 2: both cases they said, and I think this was all

401
00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:29,036
Speaker 2: based They had such a scant knowledge of the current

402
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Speaker 2: leader of North Korea. Keep in mind he was only

403
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Speaker 2: there for a couple of years, and so it was

404
00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:35,516
Speaker 2: all based on what they knew of his dad. And

405
00:22:35,556 --> 00:22:38,276
Speaker 2: they said, you know what, it's all bark, no bite.

406
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Speaker 2: Yes there'll be some noise, but you don't have to

407
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,796
Speaker 2: worry about that. They have no capabilities of hurting you. Now,

408
00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:47,276
Speaker 2: they didn't mention in my head it was always about

409
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Speaker 2: physical retribution. As it turns out, they had substantial cyber capabilities.

410
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Speaker 1: In fact, one legendary hacker. You were hacked by one

411
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Speaker 1: of the greatest hackers in the history.

412
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Speaker 2: Of hacking, as it turns out, I was.

413
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Speaker 1: His name is park Jin Hilk, head of the so

414
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Speaker 1: called Lazarus Group, the team behind the wanacry hack of

415
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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen. Mentioned the legendary Bangladesh bankheist where the Lazaros

416
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Speaker 1: group tried to siphon off the entire currency reserves of

417
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Speaker 1: the country of Bangladesh and almost got away with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So anyway, we get those threats, we determined that

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Speaker 2: they're not important. That being said, the threats increased, and

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Speaker 2: the folks back in.

421
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Speaker 1: Two see the threats increased, meaning there were.

422
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Speaker 2: More of them. There were more like don't do this.

423
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Speaker 2: If you do this, there will be consequences. And it

424
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Speaker 2: did get to the place where and I was at

425
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Speaker 2: that point talking regularly with my boss back in Tokyo,

426
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Speaker 2: who was great and very supportive, and at some point

427
00:23:48,596 --> 00:23:51,076
Speaker 2: there was a question as to whether we should figure

428
00:23:51,116 --> 00:23:53,316
Speaker 2: out how to change the ending, because that was the part,

429
00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:56,636
Speaker 2: presumably although they didn't say it, that was most offensive,

430
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Speaker 2: and we did. We went through a whole exercise where

431
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Speaker 2: we tried to reduce you know, the violence of those scenes,

432
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Speaker 2: and we did all these other kind of stuff. But truthfully,

433
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:09,356
Speaker 2: that was really a silly exercise because the end of

434
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Speaker 2: the day, you were killing Kim Jong un, you know so, And.

435
00:24:12,996 --> 00:24:16,156
Speaker 1: There's no universe in which you go back to Seth

436
00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:21,436
Speaker 1: Rogan and say kill the assassination or can you can't

437
00:24:21,476 --> 00:24:25,516
Speaker 1: you make it about a fictional country. Can you do

438
00:24:25,636 --> 00:24:28,396
Speaker 1: something other than assassinating him? You don't have to. We're

439
00:24:28,396 --> 00:24:31,436
Speaker 1: not talking about the movie doesn't hinge on them assassinating

440
00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:33,276
Speaker 1: the North Korean So.

441
00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:37,436
Speaker 2: I have a very I have a very strong memory

442
00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:41,476
Speaker 2: of this in Seth and his partners, and I'm not

443
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:46,356
Speaker 2: sure he's wrong about this. In their estimation, the humor

444
00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:49,316
Speaker 2: of this was all about the fact that it was

445
00:24:49,556 --> 00:24:52,796
Speaker 2: actually that it was Kim Jong un or an actor

446
00:24:52,796 --> 00:24:55,436
Speaker 2: playing Kim jomun, who you were going to kill, and

447
00:24:55,476 --> 00:24:58,196
Speaker 2: it had to be about North Korea, and it actually

448
00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:02,276
Speaker 2: had to be about the dictator running North Korea. That

449
00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:04,956
Speaker 2: sort of doing a version of it, the Charlie Chaplin

450
00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:07,916
Speaker 2: version of it, you know where he doesn't name Hitler

451
00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:09,836
Speaker 2: by name, but you it's Hitler.

452
00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:13,676
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the Second World War, Charlie Chaplin

453
00:25:13,676 --> 00:25:17,596
Speaker 1: made a devastating satire called The Great Dictator. He never

454
00:25:17,676 --> 00:25:20,076
Speaker 1: said who it was about. He didn't have to.

455
00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:22,796
Speaker 2: That was not the version of it that Seth and

456
00:25:22,836 --> 00:25:23,356
Speaker 2: those guys were.

457
00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:27,996
Speaker 1: Charlie Chaplin version is a movie classic that is revered

458
00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:28,556
Speaker 1: even today.

459
00:25:28,756 --> 00:25:31,676
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm not surely the interview hasn't reached that

460
00:25:31,756 --> 00:25:33,276
Speaker 2: status yet. It might, It might.

461
00:25:33,356 --> 00:25:34,356
Speaker 1: It's the Great Dictator.

462
00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:36,276
Speaker 2: I had a few years to go. The Great Dictator

463
00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:38,396
Speaker 2: has had many years between now and then.

464
00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:42,476
Speaker 5: Hello, who is This is the Secretary of Communication for

465
00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:45,476
Speaker 5: North Korea. Our Supreme Leader Kim Jong un is interested

466
00:25:45,516 --> 00:25:47,916
Speaker 5: in doing an interview with Dave Skylark. Oh my god.

467
00:25:48,116 --> 00:25:51,516
Speaker 5: We will meet fifty kilometers west of dang Dong, northeastern China.

468
00:25:51,676 --> 00:25:54,236
Speaker 2: Did you just say China? And did you just say Dong?

469
00:25:55,916 --> 00:26:00,276
Speaker 1: Then the hack happened. One of the biggest studios in

470
00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:03,756
Speaker 1: Hollywood was paralyzed. The press went to town on the

471
00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:08,076
Speaker 1: Sony emails. President Obama weighed in. The major theater chains

472
00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:10,996
Speaker 1: refused to show the movie, and Michael decided that as

473
00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:14,116
Speaker 1: a matter of principle, he had to find another way

474
00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:16,636
Speaker 1: to release the movie. He wasn't going to give in

475
00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:20,596
Speaker 1: to an active intimidation and ultimately he figured it out.

476
00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 1: Eric Schmidt, then the chairman of Google, offered to release

477
00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:27,596
Speaker 1: the movie online. Remember this is twenty fourteen, long before

478
00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:31,156
Speaker 1: streaming was an easy option, and Patrick Collison of Stripe

479
00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,716
Speaker 1: had his team work overtime to figure out how to

480
00:26:33,756 --> 00:26:39,156
Speaker 1: do online ticketing. Hollywood didn't help him, Silicon Valley did.

481
00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:44,076
Speaker 2: The phone was dead. I never heard from any of

482
00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:47,276
Speaker 2: our competitors. The only person who stood up for us

483
00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:50,156
Speaker 2: that I recollect was George Clooney. He was the only

484
00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:53,236
Speaker 2: one with the courage and the loyalty to actually step

485
00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:55,196
Speaker 2: forward and say, what these people are doing is the

486
00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 2: right thing, trying to get this movie out and the

487
00:26:57,036 --> 00:27:00,516
Speaker 2: community should be supporting them. But nobody else did. And

488
00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:03,476
Speaker 2: by the way, neither did. The mayor of la never

489
00:27:03,516 --> 00:27:06,036
Speaker 2: picked up the phone and called. Neither did the Attorney

490
00:27:06,076 --> 00:27:09,436
Speaker 2: General of California, despite the fact that this was, you know,

491
00:27:09,516 --> 00:27:11,956
Speaker 2: the biggest cyber crime that had ever happened in the state.

492
00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:14,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did Seth Rogan say?

493
00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:19,076
Speaker 2: So all of this, Seth was upset about the fact

494
00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:21,276
Speaker 2: that we were not getting in into movie theaters, and

495
00:27:21,316 --> 00:27:25,796
Speaker 2: he was he was already upset over the summertime and

496
00:27:25,876 --> 00:27:28,916
Speaker 2: I get it, he's a filmmaker at our efforts to

497
00:27:28,996 --> 00:27:32,876
Speaker 2: sort of edit the movie around the actual assassination, but

498
00:27:32,916 --> 00:27:35,956
Speaker 2: then that spilled into his upset about you know, you're

499
00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:38,356
Speaker 2: not getting into movie theaters, and we tried to explain

500
00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:40,396
Speaker 2: to him that the movie theaters wouldn't take it. We

501
00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:43,276
Speaker 2: wound up actually getting independent movie theaters to take it

502
00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:47,996
Speaker 2: as opposed to the big chains like AMC. But I

503
00:27:48,036 --> 00:27:50,756
Speaker 2: don't think and you know, I've never talked to seth

504
00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:53,596
Speaker 2: Rogen about it. After the fact. He wasn't particularly grateful

505
00:27:53,636 --> 00:27:56,556
Speaker 2: for what everybody had done. He saw this as what

506
00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:58,796
Speaker 2: the studio should be doing because he had made a

507
00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:01,356
Speaker 2: good movie and he wanted to see it in movie theaters.

508
00:28:01,596 --> 00:28:05,156
Speaker 1: Did he apologize though, for just even a kind of

509
00:28:05,596 --> 00:28:09,436
Speaker 1: pro forma apology that, like I did, initiative process bought

510
00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:11,036
Speaker 1: a lot of pain to a lot of people.

511
00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:15,316
Speaker 2: Now, No, he didn't. No, he didn't let me read

512
00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:15,556
Speaker 2: to you.

513
00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:19,356
Speaker 1: In fact, from Rogan's memoir published a few years ago,

514
00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:21,996
Speaker 1: this is right before he describes going to a crucial

515
00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:25,596
Speaker 1: meeting at Sony as the hack was unfolding. He says

516
00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:27,876
Speaker 1: he had to take a taxi to the lot because

517
00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:31,156
Speaker 1: he was still high from partying the night before. Here

518
00:28:31,236 --> 00:28:34,236
Speaker 1: is how he describes Michael. He was a dude in

519
00:28:34,236 --> 00:28:41,156
Speaker 1: his mid fifties, relatively fit, red skin, large horns, a tail, hooves,

520
00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:48,556
Speaker 1: and a legion of screaming demons flanking him at all times.

521
00:28:49,076 --> 00:28:52,036
Speaker 1: Michael stayed on at Sony for three more years. Then

522
00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,236
Speaker 1: he left. He's not in the movie business anymore, and

523
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:57,756
Speaker 1: along the way, I think he learned a hard lesson.

524
00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:00,236
Speaker 1: Michael would never say this, or maybe even think this,

525
00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 1: but let me say this as his friend who saw

526
00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:06,156
Speaker 1: him that day at Thanksgiving with his head in his hands.

527
00:29:06,796 --> 00:29:09,916
Speaker 1: Those who make mistakes mistakes that they are willing to

528
00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:13,996
Speaker 1: understand and own up to deserve better from the rest

529
00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:25,876
Speaker 1: of us. Revision's History is produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence

530
00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:29,236
Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and ben Na Dafh Haffrey. Our editor is

531
00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:34,476
Speaker 1: Karen Chakerji, fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive producer

532
00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:37,996
Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird, Lawrence Owen Miller,

533
00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:42,076
Speaker 1: and Sarah Bruger. Original music by Luis Gara. Sound is

534
00:29:42,076 --> 00:29:49,996
Speaker 1: That am Mastering by Jake Gorsky. I'm Malcolm Gadwell. Tune

535
00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:53,836
Speaker 1: in next week for the second episode in Our Mistakes series.

536
00:29:54,716 --> 00:29:58,036
Speaker 3: We knew the truth. We knew that he had been

537
00:29:58,036 --> 00:30:00,956
Speaker 3: an airman, we knew that he had been convicted of

538
00:30:00,996 --> 00:30:04,156
Speaker 3: a violent crime, and we knew that we should have

539
00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,316
Speaker 3: reported at to the FBI, and we didn't.

540
00:30:07,436 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 2: The question is not whether you're going to fail. The

541
00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:12,156
Speaker 2: question is how do you handle it when you do fail?

542
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:15,596
Speaker 2: Do you take ownership? Do you step up